← A Bit of Optimism
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- [00:00]
Fredrik Backman
My best friend and my wife. If they would have. If they would have gone on one of like the matchmaking websites or something, if they would have put themselves through an algorithm and said, find me a person, they would have never found me. Like, never in a million years would an algorithm have said this. This lunatic, he's the guy for you. Never. I was fortunate in the way that I stumble upon people early on in my life. That was very different for me.
- [00:38]
Simon Sinek
Yeah.
- [00:38]
Fredrik Backman
And I found out very quickly that that was a good thing for me. That was like I needed people who were not like me so that I could look at their best qualities and strive for them.
- [00:53]
Podcast Narrator
If you're an avid listener of this podcast, you may know something about that. I'm not a reader. I've actually written more books than I've read. But this conversation with Fredrik Backman makes me want to read the way he thinks, the way he sees the world, the way he sees humans and friendships and people. It inspired me. I actually bought two of his novels, Anxious People and A Man Called Ove, which was later made into a movie, A Man Called Otto, starring Tom Hanks. We live in a world where loneliness is an epidemic, and Frederick reminds us that meaningful relationships are built with intention. They take showing up again and again and again, even when it's inconvenient. His new book, My Friends, drives that point home. The people who have deep, meaningful connections in the world, they're not lucky. They do the work. And that work is worth it. I wanted to begin this episode talking about Fredrik's fantastic viral speech that he gave about creative anxiety and procrastination at Simon and Schuster's centennial. He is, of course, humble about the video's success, but it's easy to see why his words connected with so many people. It's brilliant, hilarious and painfully relatable for introverts like me. And that is a perfect description for the conversation that follows. This is a bit of optimism. Oh, and P.S. if you ever go to Stockholm, Frederick and I reveal who has the best cardamom buns in the world. This episode is brought to you by Porsche. And like all great brands with great products, it's the people behind the products that make them so spectacular.
- [02:45]
Simon Sinek
You already know this, irrespective of whether people are fans of your books or not. The little video you did at the publishing thing went viral and made you a bit of an Internet sensation.
- [03:00]
Fredrik Backman
Yeah, fueled by pure panic. My wife has this thing where she doesn't give me all of the information, which she finds to be very Effective. So she didn't. I thought my. My publisher was celebrating their hundred years, Simon Schuster. And they only invited me because they needed, like a Scandinavian. Like, they needed to show we have authors from all over the world. And at some point someone in a meeting was like, do we have anyone from Scandinavia? And they were like, yeah, I think we have a guy. My wife also explained to me, like, oh, they're going to have a thing. And I, you know, and I thought, based on what she told me, that I was going to give a speech at a dinner. And then I arrived and it was at a theater in the presence of a lot of writers and a lot of people that I really, really admire and really look up to. And I had prepared a speech full of stupid jokes. I don't know how to write a speech.
- [04:01]
Fredrik Backman (reading speech)
Good evening. My name is Frederic Backman. I am here tonight because my agent said that this would be good for my career. She said I need to learn how to speak in front of people. It will be fun, she said. So I told her that I write books. I spend eight hours every day locked inside a room with people I have made up. If I was comfortable talking to real people, I would have a real job. But my agent said, you know, just go up there and talk about the life of a writer. And I said, all right. Being a writer is the best way I know how to get paid for being insane.
- [04:45]
Fredrik Backman
So it was pure panic. What you saw on the video, that was just me panicking and thinking, this is going to be the end of my time at this very nice publishing house.
- [04:58]
Simon Sinek
Well, the good news is they hire you for being a writer, not a speech giver. And the better news is you nail. But inherently, audience is always rooting for who's ever on the stage, I've found. And where things are the best, and we most enjoy what we hear, is that somebody is showing who they truly are, which is if they're nervous or if they speak slowly. As long as that's who they are, I think people fall in love.
- [05:22]
Fredrik Backman (reading speech)
I am here tonight with all of my anxiety because I know that in this room there might be someone who is dreaming about writing a book, dreaming of becoming an author. So I'm here to tell you that I am obviously an idiot. I have no idea what I'm doing, but I became an author anyway, so you can too. And I hope that one day I will be able to tell my agent that the reason that my next book is not finished yet is because I was busy reading yours. Thank you very much.
- [05:57]
Simon Sinek
I think that's what happened, which is we fell in love with somebody who was very honest about how you were actually feeling. In the day and age where we filter everything and everything's performing, I'm glad.
- [06:07]
Fredrik Backman
If it felt that way. There was a lot of people who told me afterwards, like, it was so good because, you know, it wasn't perfect. It wasn't like practiced. And I'm like, I, well, I tried. It wasn't my intention not to. I. It was my intention for it to be good. You know, you walk up on stage and I had a piece of paper with the speech written down and they said, no, no, we can put that on the teleprompter. And I was like, absolutely not. I'm holding on to the paper that, like, this is like my life raft on opensea. I'm holding on to this like, I'm holding on to like the, the edge of a mountain. It went all right, but it was, it was. There was a lot of panic involved. This is also a lot of panic involved. And that. We talked about that earlier. But the reason that I, the reason that I said yes to this, I was going to explain to my children what I was going to do today. I said, well, I'm going to be on this podcast and said, what, what kind of podcast is. And I said, this incredibly intelligent man who has written these books on leadership, and he invites these incredibly smart people to his podcast and they talk about, you know, profound things and they talk about, like, research and science and, and, you know, the world and the society. And you can see my kids looking at me like, when are we going to get to the part of why you're here? Why are you going to be on it? But the reason that I couldn't say no was that my best friend, we've known each other since we were teenagers of 30 plus years. He's a great extrovert, you know, always was always a good leader, always one of those guys that you followed everywhere because he just had that charisma. And. And when he was 19, he started working as a forklift driver at a warehouse. Fruit and vegetables. And then over the course of 25 years, he's worked his way up and now he's the head of HR for the company of 900 people. He talks about your books and your writing and how it's affected his view on leadership, how it's affected his view on how to be of service to others. Like, he talks a lot about, he talks a lot about how he learned that leadership. It's not about the position. It's about the responsibility and responsibility to others and being of service to others. We talk about it a lot. So I couldn't, like, there was no way that he would forgive me if I said no to this.
- [08:39]
Simon Sinek
That's very kind. Thank you. What I'm taking away from that story, which is so beautiful, is how proud you are of him. You're glowing as you talk about it. And as I've been looking at friendship and trying to understand friendship, there's this very interesting observation that we all, I hope, have at least one, but a few. A group of people that we can turn to in dark times, when we're at our worst, when we're struggling, we can go to these people and say, I. I just need to vent. I need your help. I'm not doing well. You know, I. I hope that everybody has that. That group of friends. What I've found fascinating is that it's a smaller group of friends that we can call to brag, that we can call to say, I did something great. Something great happened to me. My book hit the bestseller list. I'm so proud of myself, and there's no jealousy on the other side, and there's no envy. And what I find so fascinating is the number of people that we can brag to is smaller than the number of people we can go to in hard times. And so this says a lot, I think, about the quality of your friendship. You said he's such a close friend, you've been friends since you were teenagers, that you were talking about his accomplishments as if they're your own. Has it always been like that? Or have you ever had times in your. In that friendship where you were jealous or something he did highlighted an insecurity in you?
- [10:02]
Fredrik Backman
No, I think it's always been that we were really proud of each other. I think it was always that we rooted so strongly for each other. He's always been insanely proud of me for whatever I accomplished. But I really, really think that he was the person who taught me how to be that it was important to be happy for others like that. That was a genuine part of the friendship, to have that, to be able to be genuinely happy for each other. It's funny that you say that, because I have that with him, that I call him sometimes and I say, I can't say this to anyone else because I'm going to sound like a douchebag. I'm going to sound really full of myself. But this thing happened, and I'm super proud of It. And we also have this. He can call me once in a while and he'll say, you know, I'm. This thing happened. I'm really, you know, I'm upset with this person. I just need to vent. Is that okay? And then he just goes off. And then at the end of it is like, I know I'm. I'm, like, exaggerating. I'm overreacting. I know that. But I have to, like, sometimes you need to get it out to, like, edit yourself. And like, yeah, this is not how I'm going to say it to them, but I needed to say it to you first.
- [11:24]
Simon Sinek
I think you just summed up the problem with social media, which is our initial reaction, which is not the best reaction. It's the benting reaction. It's not the way we actually want to say something to somebody. It's not constructive. But it is necessary for us to get it all out in the most exaggerated form so that we can be calmer and rational again. That. I think a lot of people are using the social media, the comments section as that outlet. Not. Not the friend.
- [11:54]
Fredrik Backman
If you're married and you're upset, you know, you have an argument with your wife and you go to your friends and you say, you know, I. I just, you know, it's this, this and this and this and this. And, you know, and we had this argument. She didn't listen. And whatever it is, your friends will tell you, yeah, but, you know, but you are that way. Like, you're. She's right about these three things. Like, you might be right about this one thing, but the other three things. She's spot on there. Like, you're. You're the annoying one. You're in the wrong. And you have to go like, all right, all right, fine. And then you kind of edit yourself.
- [12:31]
Simon Sinek
Yeah.
- [12:32]
Fredrik Backman
Because they're your editors, and you go back and you. You're like, okay, this is how I feel. You need people around you who edit you. When people have read one of my books and they tell me, like, well, I'm excited to meet you because I read one of your books and I want to tell them, like, you need to tone down your expectations because you read my book. I edited the book for a year. That's the best version of me. And if you didn't like the book, that's still the most. You're going to like me because that was all I had. That was the best. That was the best way that I could phrase this. Like, I. Maybe I rewrote that sentence 150 times before. I'm like, yeah, this is how I feel about it. If you meet me in real life before editing, then that's how I found writing. When I was a kid, I was very bad at being in an argument, being in a confrontation. I didn't know. Like, I always went away, like, oh, I should have said that. I should have said that. I should have said that. So writing was my way to find. I was in argument. I think I was in an argument with my dad. He's very good with words, so he would win all the time because he knew more words. I mean, he. He could, like, twist an argument. And I was maybe 6 or 7 years old, and I was like. I went into my room and I was really angry. And instead of, like, engaging in the argument, I went to my room and I wrote him a letter. And I started doing that a little bit with people. Like, when I was upset with them, I sat down and I wrote them a letter, because then I could edit myself. So it didn't come out. It came out the way that I wanted it come out. That's how I started writing.
- [14:14]
Simon Sinek
I think I absolutely love this idea as friend, as editor. And there are people who are better editors than they are writers, you know, where they can see the flaws in the argument, or they can see how to make the argument better more than we can. And they have clarity. And we are open to editors. The good writers are open to editors. The good writers know that they won't get it right, and they need somebody's input to see the things that we can't see and to think of a friend to have that same clarity and objectivity and to be able to see what we're trying to say and for us to be open to an editor rather than to just hire somebody to just agree with our writing. Did you said that you learned to. To be proud of somebody else from him? Did he actually sit down and teach you the lesson, or did you just feel his joy for you and you learned it by example, by watching him?
- [15:14]
Fredrik Backman
No, with him, I think I learned with that. That particular thing, I think I learned by example and still do. I mean, he's still my. He's still very much my role model. He's always, you know, showed me how to be a better person. I'm always trying to give me an example. He was always the first with a lot of things. So he was the first to get a serious relationship. We were 22, 23, and we would always watch movies. We would always end up at you know, whatever night it was, we were at, usually at my apartment, and we would watch movies or play video games. He met a girl. And, you know, after a while, they get serious. And one night he just sat there and he, like, just looked at me, and he said, you know what? I think this is going to be the last time for a very long time that I watch a movie with you guys. I was like, what? And he's like, no, I've been thinking about it, and this is something that we do, but we're gonna do other things. Like, we're gonna go. We're gonna go grab a beer, we're gonna go grab dinner, we're gonna hang out, we're gonna go to concerts. We're still gonna do all that. But this, like, Tuesday night, just sitting around watching a movie. I'm gonna do that with my girlfriend now because that time is really important for me to. To have with her if this is going to work. And I want this to work. And he had this really, discussion with us that. That, you know, you need to be happy for me for this. And we would. You know, we were 22, which was a. You know, and it was such a mature way of telling your friends, like, I love you. I. But. But I have to invest time in her. And then a few years later, he was 25, and they had their first child, and we were 25 years old. You know, you're not the smartest. And we were all single, the rest of us. So I remember we were in a room, and three of his friends started as a joke, and then it went a little too far. And then we kind of said, well, you never hang out with us anymore because you always have to be with your family. Now that you have a kid, you always have to be with your family. And he sat down, and he did it in the nicest, most compassionate way. But he sat down and he looked at us, and he says, it's not that I have to be with them. It's that I want to be with them. And he says, I love you. I love hanging out with you, but there is no situation where I wouldn't rather be with my kid. And he was so just. It was such a moment for the rest of us. We were all single. We didn't have kids. We didn't know anything about that. And we all remember and we've talked about it afterwards. It was such a profound moment for the rest of us in the room. And it kind of. It impacted the way. I really think it impacted the way that we looked at a relationship, because after that, we were. We were all, okay, that's what I'm looking for. That's the thing I'm looking for. Over the next five, six years, we all met someone. We're still with that person. Ten, 15 years later, we're still with that person. And we all have kids, and we all look at our families the way that he told. The way that he said that that day. We still. We're all like. We're all invested in our families in the same way. We. We all have this discussion all the time that people talk about quality time over quantity time. Yeah. And I think that's the part where we would wildly disagree. Like, all four of us is like, I would rather have quantity. I would rather have 100 hours with you over the phone than like, going on this trip to Las Vegas and watch a Formula one race or whatever, you know, super experience that you could have with a group of friends. I would much rather have 100 hours with you over the phone. Yeah. He's impacted me tremendously because he's. He's always been the one to do something first. Very often he said something, and then three years later, I'm like, I get it, though. I. I didn't get it at the time, but I get it now. You were right.
- [20:06]
Simon Sinek
There's so many things that I'm taking away from this. He's also talking about growing up and that our life change as we grow, and we have to by. We have to reprioritize, and sometimes that'll come at the expense of the people who aren't at the place we're at. You know, as you said, you were single, he was in a relationship. You learned some of the things he was saying. You understand some of the things he was saying only three years later when some of your life caught up with some of his life. But I so appreciate that level of communication where you tell your friends just so you know, and they get to have the reaction. No, no, no. You know, as opposed to getting angry because it's more passive, which is, I think, unfortunately, what most of us do. A, because I think it's easier, and B, because I don't think we know how to tell our friends for fear of disappointing them or upsetting them. And he didn't seem to have that fear.
- [20:55]
Fredrik Backman
No, no, no. And I think I practiced talking about my emotions because we. We were that kind of group of friends. It was always very normal to us to. To talk about how we felt, especially me and him. Um, and It. It. So I had a lot of practice talking about my emotions. And he also, you know, he's a great editor. He's very good at telling me, like, yeah, you're way off here.
- [21:24]
Simon Sinek
You know, you're talking about honesty.
- [21:25]
Fredrik Backman
He's honest and he was always. But it was also this, you know, he taught me how to. To view time. We live seven hours apart in Sweden now because I moved north. So we talk over the phone a lot. And so we can text each other. Like, we both have dogs. So I'll text him like, are you going to walk the dog? He's like, yeah, at 9pm I'm going to walk the dog. I'll call them. But we were always talking about time. Like, time. Like, he was so clear so early on in life that this is the amount of time I have and these are the things that I need to do. And I, like, we're still gonna hang out, but I'm gonna have to take a little bit of it. He said on multiple occasions that, like, the only thing I can give you is time. Like, that's what I have. Like, that's, that's what I'm. That's what I have.
- [22:29]
Simon Sinek
Redeemable, precious commodity.
- [22:31]
Fredrik Backman
Yeah. And for him it was, I can give you time. Whenever there's someone who loses someone, he's that person who. He just gets in the car and he goes to their house and he says, I'm here. And he says, if you don't need me for anything, I'll go sit in the car. But I just want you to know that I'm here. And at so many occasions, someone lost someone. And there's this thing that happens when you lose someone that everyone thinks, oh, I don't want to call, I don't want to disturb. I don't want to intrude in there. So they end up sitting there alone. And he would say, like, there are probably people who can say smarter things or give you more profound words at this time. But I can give you. I can be around. I can be here. I can. I can do the dishes or, you know, go get food or, or I'll, you know, if there. There's a chore around the house, I'll do that. Like, I'll. I'll give me something to do.
- [23:39]
Simon Sinek
A lot of people listening to this are. I don't want to use the word jealous or envious, maybe the feeling of longing to that in their lives. And I know people are asking this, how do I get a friend? Like your friend, look who you are and who you become that we have to, we have to admit in some way, shape or form, whether it's you as a father, you as a husband, you as a friend, you as an author, in some way, shape or form, you have become good at those things in part because of this person in your life who's rooting for you since the beginning, who's been honest with you since the beginning, who's been helping manage time since the beginning. I've been modeling what all of it looks like for you. And I know a lot of people listening to this are thinking themselves. How do I get that? I want that? There's beauty in what you're talking about. There's also profound sadness.
- [24:44]
Podcast Narrator
We interrupt this podcast with an ad with authenticity, authentic, because we do our ads a little differently. And thank you to Porsche for being open to something a little different. I met up with race car driver Patrick Long. He's competed with Porsche in some of the most iconic races in the world, which is why I thought it would be safer if I did the driving. How did you come to Porsche?
- [25:11]
Patrick Long
I was a young Southern California kid who was just chasing a dream of being a pro racing driver. If it was for one weekend or for what it ended up being, multiple decades. I was living in Europe and I had a phone call from Porsche. I showed up to Germany not knowing much. I knew I loved Porsches as a kid growing up, but I didn't really understand what was behind this brand, their story, their DNA, and just how successful they've been in racing.
- [25:37]
Podcast Narrator
Every little boy wants to be an.
- [25:38]
Simon Sinek
Astronaut or a race car driver.
- [25:40]
Podcast Narrator
Where did your dream of being a race car driver? Where did it come from and how did you actually get into it?
- [25:44]
Patrick Long
Yeah, my little league was go karts and at six years old on a closed circuit dirt road, I was in control of my destiny. There was no one telling me what to do.
- [25:55]
Podcast Narrator
What was your first professional race?
- [25:56]
Simon Sinek
How old were you?
- [25:57]
Patrick Long
I was 21 and I was racing on the German DTM schedule in a 1 make 911 cup series, where down to the steering wheel in the seat, everybody's cars were identical as delivered from Porsche, and basically the driver was the differentiator. It was my college career, if you will. You know, I was the first non German to be signed into the Porsche junior team, the farm league where they developed their factory fighter pilots. By the fourth race, I had my first victory and I think people were shocked, not only because I was a rookie, but because I was an American. And Americans racing in Europe are Sort of black sheeps for whatever reason, and just still loving every new journey within the brand.
- [26:47]
Simon Sinek
How do people get a friend like that?
- [26:51]
Fredrik Backman
I mean, part of it is just I was lucky. Just the way that I talk about, you know, my wife. Well, I was lucky. I ran into someone and they were my humans, me and Riyadh, my best friend. And that friend group that I still have, those three friends I still have in my life, and they're still my most important people. And. And I figured out with them, and then I did the same with my wife. We figured out that, okay, there's two things that we need to be aware of here. First, we need to have rules of fighting, if that makes sense. And like, my wife and I, very early on in our relationship, when we had been. Just started dating, like, we. We agreed that we would never. In a fight, no one could say, no one could threaten with, like, maybe we shouldn't be together. Maybe we shouldn't. You know, maybe. Well, maybe this relationship is a mistake. Maybe you should leave me. Like, no one could do that because that's like an atomic bomb in, in, in, in. Like, the discussion is immediately over. Someone threatens to leave. Yeah. Then the argument is immediately over, then you won. Like, we set up boundaries for fighting, and I think we talked about the way we fight. Like, after the fight, we would talk for hours and hours and hours and hours about the fight, if that made sense. Like, we would try to analyze each other and we would try to figure each other out. And I think it was coming from a place where we understood that we are very, very, very different. And I think it's the same thing with my wife. We knew immediately going into that relationship, like, we are really different people. This is going to be a journey for both of us. When you're young, people tell you that, well, a relationship is a lot of work. And when you're young, you think it sounds unromantic because you think like, well, in that case, it's not true love. If you have to work on it, it's not true love. But that's because when you're young, you don't understand that the work is not on the relationship. And it's not. It's not. It's on you. The work is on you. That's what people mean when they say a relationship is a lot of work. The work is on. It's on me. It's. I have to work. I have to work on who I am, communicating better, explaining my feelings better, understanding me better, so that I can explain Myself better, but also the fact that me and Riyadh, we've been friends for 30 plus years. My wife and I have been together for 18 years. And we change all the time. Like, we've changed a lot. Like, we've changed immensely. You find someone, you get married and then you have kids. Like, you become a completely different person in some regards when you have kids. Because then, then there's this whole other responsibility that I have too.
- [30:13]
Simon Sinek
You're unraveling some of the tropes and the, and the, and the punchlines. You know, like, relationships are a lot of work. And to your point, it was like, yes, but the work is on yourself. Like, that's, that's not. People don't say that. You know, I love my relationship because I've been working on myself and I'm a better version of myself. And that's my definition of a great relationship. Whether it's a friendship or a romantic relationship, the youth do the growth yourself. The other persons can only support you. They can't grow for you. And, and I think when we talk about sort of the sadness that goes along with hearing about a friendship like yours, I can't accept that. It's a lottery. I can't accept that. It's like some people are good looking, some people are smart, and some people get great friends. Like, I can't accept that. You know, the good looking and the smart, you know, that's genetics. That really is a lottery. But the friendship, I, I know you said you were lucky and that's probably how you feel, but based on everything you've been describing in the, in the, in your relationship about the choice to do the work and your friend's choice to spend time with his family and his choice to spend time with his, his, his girlfriend. I think the way you get one of those friends that you want is you choose to be that friend first. You choose to show up at someone's house and say, I'm here. Give me, give me, give me something to do. That's the work on yourself. Like, first you have to choose to be the good friend. Your friend made the choice to be a good friend and what he got back was a great friend.
- [31:42]
Fredrik Backman
What's the term you use in business? Roi? Return of investment. That's why I talk more about quantity time than quality time. I think it's a return of investment for me. I'm the same way with my kids. I know that I'm not a great dad. I know that I'm not like, I'm aiming to Be an okay dad. I know that I, because I live in my head a lot and I'm easily distracted and I have all these things and I'm bad with stress and all of that, but I'm like, if I'm around enough, then I will have time to make up for, for my mistakes.
- [32:20]
Simon Sinek
Does your wife think that you're a bad dad?
- [32:25]
Fredrik Backman
No. I think she would agree that I'm, I'm, I, I'm usually distracted. I think she, she would say that I'm a good dad because I really try. So that's, that's, because that's her def, that's, that's her definition.
- [32:38]
Simon Sinek
She's a better judge of the quality of your parenting than you, I would imagine. Because they're her kids too and she doesn't want you to screw them up.
- [32:46]
Fredrik Backman
No, no, no. She tells me that a lot like you, like you are good. Like they think you're a good dad because they can see how hard you try to be a good dad. And then you make mistakes sometimes and that's all right. And you know, you mess it up. But I think it's the same way with friendships and it's the same way with my relationship with my wife. The thing we invest in is our friendship. If I, if that makes sense. Like, if we would like, I view, I view that relationship as, it's, it's a romantic relationship, it's husband and wife, it's all of that. But it's also at its core, we invested in our friendship, like hanging out, doing things together.
- [33:30]
Simon Sinek
This whole conversation to me goes right back to where we started on the four minute speech you gave at Simon and Schuster, which is you tried. And I think, I think you're tying together a lot of things. I've said a lot of things before that you're tying together for me, my girlfriend. We were having a fight that went like this. I said, here's what I got right and here's what you got wrong. And she responded, well, here's what I got right and here's what you got wrong. And you can see how this goes back as a forwards. And at some point, like, you know, I, I, I interrupted the fight and said, this is not going to go anywhere good. I'm changing the rules. And the rules are I'm going to tell you what I did wrong. I'm going to tell you what you did right. Then you're going to go, and that's what we did. And within 30 seconds, what we both discovered is we're trying and I think this idea of letting people see that you're trying to not just tell them that you're trying, but let them see that you're trying. When you show up at someone's house and say, I'm here, give me something to do, meaning I don't know what to say. I didn't prepare anything. I don't have a sense of what right or wrong is in this situation, but I'm here, give me something to do is the graves indication of I'm trying. Telling your friends, guys, just so you know, this will be the last time I come to movie night, which is I'm going to try this relationship thing.
- [34:54]
Fredrik Backman (reading speech)
Thing.
- [34:54]
Simon Sinek
And that's the respect we had for him was the effort, the visual effort, the measurable effort is the most romantic thing in the world in a romantic relationship or a friendship or a work relationship is effort that someone is investing in a person, not that they get it right. And I think you an amazing father because you're trying so hard to be a good father.
- [35:28]
Fredrik Backman
Yeah. And I.
- [35:31]
Simon Sinek
I don't know why I'm so emotional today. Like, I have close friends and I have a good relationship with my folks and they're both amazing parents. You know, I don't know why this is touching me so much.
- [35:44]
Fredrik Backman
I mean, this is super emotional to me. New because we're talking about, you know, we're talking about these are my most important relate like my wife, my kids and my best friends. These are my, you know, humans. I, I always separate, like I always try to explain that, that I don't. There are people and there are humans. Like humans. You have maybe seven humans that you chose. These are your. And then people. People are the ones at the airport. You can be annoyed by people and still love humans. My best friend and my wife, if they would have, if they would have gone on one of like the matchmaking websites or something, one of the apps or whatever it is now, it's like I, I'm too old for that, but I'm too old to understand the technology now. But if, like, if they would have put themselves through an algorithm and said, find me a person, they would have never found me. Like never in a million years would an algorithm have said this lunatic, he's the guy for you. Never. I was fortunate in the way that I stumble upon people early on in my life. That was very different for me. And I found out very quickly that that was a good thing for me. That was like I needed people who were not like me so that I could look at their best qualities and strive for them.
- [37:15]
Simon Sinek
I wanted to double click on one other thing which is you're very self deprecating and there's a difference between being self deprecating and being having low self esteem. And I think you're self deprecating. You accept you, I think you find you funny, I think your ego is healthy and I think the ability to be self deprecating in a way that is owning either real shortcomings or perceived shortcomings is by naming it. You can say, I'm working on it, I'm trying. You can make it a thing as opposed to not naming it. Keeping it hidden means it can never be addressed, it can never grow and it. And that then becomes an insecurity. And I, I'm fascinated by healthy self deprecators, you know where by putting it.
- [38:12]
Fredrik Backman
As way to put it how I.
- [38:14]
Simon Sinek
I mean I do, I, I think there's a difference between going I'm, I'm no good at this versus yeah, I'm, I'm no good at this. But it's not a giving up, it's an identifying. And that's the difference. I think low self esteem is giving up and accepting. This is, this is my lot, this is how I am. Self deprecation when it's healthy is simply identifying something and saying, look, sometimes it goes better, sometimes it get worse. I'm working on it, you know, haven't conquered it yet, but still doing it. And it probably might take me my whole life and I may never get to the standard I want, but I'm working on it. And I think the ability to put it out there does so many things. A. I think it's super healthy. It also makes you super authentic. It also allows others to support you in whatever journey you're trying to grow in. I mean, I watched your speech and I was so inspired by it because I just love that you just put it out there and said, this is what I'm going to try and do. And here you go. I also wonder how much of it is just because you're Swedish. You know, what is it? Yenta, what's it called? Yanta?
- [39:18]
Fredrik Backman
The Janta law. There's a certain part of it so.
- [39:23]
Simon Sinek
That people know what we're talking about. I do. They teach it at school in Sweden.
- [39:27]
Fredrik Backman
Yeah, it's just a common.
- [39:29]
Simon Sinek
Everybody knows, don't pick up yourself, never brag, never think you're better than anybody else. Don't seek attention. It's all of these forced humility things. And Swedes, you know, I know. Like if you walk through the very, very fancy street with all the fancy shops in downtown Stockholm, like in the Gucci, in the Prada in the window, nothing has a logo on it. You know, no conspicuous displays of wealth is looked down upon. And talking about yourself and bragging about.
- [39:57]
Fredrik Backman
Yourself, I think a certain part of it, sure. And I think it's. To a certain extent I defend yante. I think it's, I mean, for, for, for some of us it's kind of good. It's, it's like, you know, don't get too full of yourself. The bad quality of it is what you call crabs in a bucket. Like one crab tries to get out of the buckets and the other crabs pull them back down.
- [40:24]
Simon Sinek
Yeah.
- [40:25]
Fredrik Backman
But I think part of it is that Sweden is a small country and I think it's the same if you grow up in America, but in a small town. Yeah, kind of. It does something to you. You have this idea that we kind of have to stick together a little bit. Yes. And we have to find a way to get along because there's fewer of us. And so I think there's, there's a positive quality to it. But I also think, honestly, I think it's a huge part of it. I've always looked for people who are different. For me, I think I, I very, it was good for me to very early on in life understand like the people that I butt head with. The, like the people that I get annoyed by are very often people who are more like me. I get annoyed with someone at the airport and my wife and my kids will go like, yeah, because he's like you. That's how you are when you're having a bad day. That's how you are when you're annoyed by something. It was a blessing for me very early on in my life that I have stumbled on, but also have sought out people who were very different from me. So that, I mean, what you call self deprecating, it's also part of it is also that, you know, if you hang out with people who are very different from you, you kind of learn how to make jokes about how different you are. So you, you, you understand the way that you are different from the people around you. Sure, it can be self deprecating, but it can also be this. We never feel that we deserve each other.
- [42:07]
Simon Sinek
Yeah.
- [42:08]
Fredrik Backman
We always feel that we have to earn it. Like, I always feel like I have to, I have to earn the attention of my wife. Like, I always feel like I have to try a Little harder to make her laugh or to, to, you know, to make her think that I'm doing okay.
- [42:29]
Simon Sinek
What you're talking about is doing the work. What you're talking about is you're doing the work of the relationship. Like it requires effort. Like you can't take any of it for granted. You have to earn it every single day. That's the work.
- [42:38]
Fredrik Backman
Like, I have very few close friends. I have very few humans in my life because I figured out very early on that I, I you, for you to get the best out of me, you have to spend a lot of time with me because I'm also going to be very annoying. And I'm also going to be very intense sometimes because I can't, you know, I'm very often at a 1 or an 11. I talk too little or I can't shut up. It's. So there's a lot of things that I'm going to do that you're going to find highly annoying. So I need a lot of time from you so that you can see my good qualities too. And I figured that out and realized from, you know, Riyadh's lesson that, okay, so everything is about time. Then I can't have 300 friends. It's because I'm never going to be able to give them the best of me.
- [43:36]
Simon Sinek
For the record, I like the Yanta Law. My only complaint about it is that all of those things are expressed in the negative. Don't do this, don't be this, don't do this, don't do this. And I would love to see it updated for the modern world that says, be humble, be appreciative of others, see the value in others. I'd rather the Yanta Law tells us what to do rather than what not to do. And I wonder if it's a bucket of crabs, because everybody's saying, you can't do that, as opposed to let's lift each other up as opposed to pull each other down.
- [44:08]
Fredrik Backman
That's actually incredibly clever and very, very true. And I have to admit that I've been living with this my entire life and I haven't thought about it that way, but it's exactly that it should be. If you would just turn around and say, these are the things you should do, then it would be a list of very positive things, because that's the kind of like, all of the things are things that you try to teach your kids.
- [44:39]
Simon Sinek
I like Yanta. I just wish it was expressed. I'm going to rewrite all the Yanta Laws and in the affirmative. That's what I'm going to do.
- [44:45]
Fredrik Backman
You should this, I think, I think this could really benefit all of us.
- [44:51]
Simon Sinek
I wish I could have 10 more hours. The I, I, I'm so profoundly moved by this idea of time and choice, you know, and I'm so, I'm so curious about Riyadh of his. If he's, if his, his obsession with time, if it's born out of fear or something else.
- [45:13]
Fredrik Backman
So, you know, this is a very personal thing to say about someone that you, you have in your life and that I love, you know, immensely. I think it's a fear for him. It's always been a fear of not being enough for people. Like, that's his main fear for a long time. He struck like every, if you rise within a company, you get a new role. You become, all of a sudden you're the boss of people you used to work with. And you have to change your identity a little. You have to, this is certain. There's a new responsibility now. And I have to think differently. I have to be of service to others and all that. I think he had this self esteem problem at every new level. He felt everyone knows more than I do. They have more education that I do. They come from this huge background. They, they bring so much to the table. Yeah. And I don't have anything that I'm bringing. So he always felt that he had to outwork everybody. He had become the best prepared the mo. Like he had to just find so much things to bring to the table. Everyone else just showed up, but he felt to deserve a seat at the table. I have to bring so much more than everyone else. This is something that I learned later on in life that I'm dealing, trying to learn now, trying to deal with now. But I think I kind of, I developed this fear of disappointing people, which my wife has told me a lot. Like you, you have this fear of disappointing people. And it's so strong in you that you do like, you try to do too much. And then when you don't feel appreciated or you feel like, oh, I think they're disappointed me, you kind of lash out even before they've reacted. You're so afraid that they'll be disappointed that you're, you lash out at them. You become angry before they're even disappointed. Yeah, you, you kind of, you, you took it out in advance. And I'm really trying to become better at that. My wife told me in so many words, sometimes you, the only thing you want is for the kids to be happy. And you want that so much. So if we're at some place and you wanted them to be so happy when we got to this place and you get kind of upset with them for not being happy enough and, and, and that's not on them, that's on you because you raised your expectations of how happy you were going to make them. And so this is, this is a you problem.
- [47:56]
Simon Sinek
I had a guest on my, on the podcast named Mo Got it. And he talked about expectations and fantasy. Like, and what happens is we have these expectations, we have these fantasies. And then what happens is if real life doesn't match that, that's where the disappointment happens. So you plan something for you kids and in your mind they scream and shout and dad, you're the main. This is the best thing ever. And that's the fantasy that you concocted in your mind when you show up. And when reality shows up. And it's not that, it's the delta that leaves you so disappointed. Leaves us so disappointed. And his whole point was like, can you let go of the fantasy that you plan the thing and the reaction will be whatever the reaction will be and trying to let go of the expectation because you're only going to be disappointed?
- [48:40]
Fredrik Backman
No, but it's, it's entirely true.
- [48:42]
Simon Sinek
I've been plagued by this my whole life. Like, I, I'm so, I am more excited for the things I plan for people than they are. And I've had to learn that the gesture is the thing and not the reaction. And I still struggle with it. Here's another question for you. How can we understand bullies without excusing them?
- [49:06]
Fredrik Backman
I think for me it's to see how much I have in common with them. I write books and it's not to be self deprecating, it's not to be humble. But I often tell people that the, the worst people in my books, the worst characters, they're very often from me. The most annoying characters, the characters with a lot of flaws and a lot of who do stupid things, they're very often from me. And the best characters are from people around me. Those are the people that I aspire to. If people find something in my writing or in my characters that they connect to, it's very often that I don't start. I don't, I don't write about the best parts of me. I write about the really, you know, the parts of me that I'm not super proud of. The, the, you know, when I'm envious or, or I'm you know, I'm, I'm petty or I'm, I'm mean, I don't excuse bullies by seeing. Oh, but there's good in them. I excuse them by seeing. But the, the things that they do, they are within me too. And maybe I'm not that far from them that I wish I was, if that makes sense.
- [50:15]
Simon Sinek
That is such a brilliant device, which is instead of forcing each other to find the good of the people we don't like or disagree with, but rather to find what we have in common with the people we don't like or who bully us, I find that much more humbling and it's not so arrogant, which is, boy, I'm pretty flawed too. And I think what it does is it, it produces empathy. It helps you understand another person who's, who we don't like or disagree with.
- [50:45]
Fredrik Backman
I do that a lot with my wife that I say, you know, someone did something at a, you know, we see someone do something or say something or behave badly and we come home, you know, maybe we're at a party or a dinner or something and I come home and I say, you know what? I saw him say this or I saw him behave in this way. And I got this shame that, that is probably something that I do once in a while. And I have to become better at fighting that part of me. And it's not to be, it's not to be self deprecating or humble, but I think that I'm in large parts a narcissist. I really do. I just feel fight it. And I think that's, maybe that was my, you know, survival mechanism kicking in that, that I have to find people around me who are different from me and better from me so that they constantly remind me not to be a jerk. Because I, I, I struggle with my narcissism all the time. Like I, I, I fight it actively to be, to be better because I think I, if I let it loose, it would just, I would, I would be a horrible, horrible person.
- [52:02]
Simon Sinek
I think of myself as an idiot. There are people who are much smarter than me, much more disciplined than me, much more schooled than me. I, the thing that I have though, that I do recognize is, and I, and I'm, and I don't joke when I say that I'm an idiot. I'm not being self deprecating and I'm not sort of, it's not false humility. The one thing that I'm very comfortable being is outwardly curious and saying I don't Know, or saying, can you explain that again, please? Because I don't understand the way you explained it the first time. And saying and asking the questions that other people are afraid to ask because it'll make them look dumb. And I already know I'm an idiot, so I'm not going to look any dumber than I already think I am. And so I ask those questions and I. The result is I get to learn more because I simply ask the question. And hopefully whatever I learn, I want to share. But I don't believe in being selfish with anything I've learned because I think the lessons are interesting. And the other thing I hate is tadas like I hate. I write my books. I never wanted to be like, wait for it, wait for it and look how smart I am. I, I always want my reader to come to my conclusion. Conclusion. One page before I reveal it. So that by the time I reveal it they go, oh yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Yeah, of course.
- [53:21]
Fredrik Backman
But it's, it's the whole. I think it's, it's a very generous way of writing. It's a very generous way of telling a story.
- [53:28]
Simon Sinek
It's why I like Sweden, it's why I like Yantala, and it's why I like, I just wanted to done affirmatively. But it's why I like all those things. Because, because. And you said it like it's that small country, small town, like it's either us or none of us. Like, I don't necessarily like you, but like we gotta do this, you know, so we all have different jobs to make the machine go and just everybody has to do their job. But it's. Every job is important to the machine.
- [53:57]
Fredrik Backman
Because I write, that's what I do. I'm only interested in like writing and storytelling. But you have this incredible inclusive way of writing. You know, you have this way of writing where you feel immediately that someone is talking with you, not to you, not down to you. There are so many people that I know, my best friend included, who will say, I don't read a lot of books. And Riad will say like, they're like, I'll read Frederick's books because he's my best friend. But I don't, you know, I'm not a great book reader. And he says that all the time. Yeah, but he's read all of yours. Yeah, and I think a lot of people will say that, no, I don't read books, but I read Simon.
- [54:46]
Simon Sinek
Yeah.
- [54:47]
Fredrik Backman
And that's like the, the best compliment I get as A writer. The. The ones I value the most is when people come up to me at book signings, when, you know, teachers or parents, and they say, no, I have a teenage kid or my husband or someone in their life, and they say they don't read books. They don't read ever. But they read one of your books, and now they're reading other books. You were being a gateway to harder literature, if that makes sense. It's the greatest thing that a person can be. And I think you're opening a lot of doors to people. They read you and they feel like maybe I can read other stuff, too. And that's amazing.
- [55:25]
Simon Sinek
Thank you, Frederick. This is. I know why they gave me this question to ask you. This is the. Because I have a very strong opinion about this. This question. Who has the world's best cardamom bun.
- [55:39]
Fredrik Backman
Or the world's best. Yeah, we do the sweets.
- [55:43]
Simon Sinek
I know a bakery in Stockholm that I will walk. I walk out of town to go to. It's called ET Baggery. And it is profoundly good how good that cardamom bun is.
- [55:56]
Fredrik Backman
Yeah. But I think you will.
- [55:57]
Simon Sinek
You would call it raisin bun with butter. Oh, I could just eat. I could just sit there and eat bread all day.
- [56:03]
Fredrik Backman
Yeah. But you'll get, I think, from a lot of Swedes, you will get the same answer that you would get if you asked an Italian about the best pasta. They would say, my mother.
- [56:16]
Simon Sinek
Well, I would like to compare your mother's to ET Baghetti. And we'll have a. We'll have a bun off.
- [56:22]
Fredrik Backman
She's right up there. I promise you.
- [56:24]
Simon Sinek
I love cardamom and I love bread. And I also know that it ends with the letter N, not the letter M. It's not cardamom, it's cardamom. I know that. Like orangutan. Not orangutan, but it's these little things anyway.
- [56:38]
Fredrik Backman
Very complicated. There's a lot of things to keep.
- [56:40]
Simon Sinek
In your head, and this is why I say up all night.
- [56:42]
Fredrik Backman
You're absolutely right about that bakery. It's. It's. It's. It's awesome. I think we have a, you know, bakery wise, Stockholm is pretty.
- [56:53]
Simon Sinek
The best. What an absolute joy. Didn't expect it to be so emotional. And I'm really grateful I got to learn from you. I get to try to be a little better version of myself today, thanks to this. Thanks to you. So I really, really appreciate it. Really love, really love the conversation. Lovely meeting.
- [57:10]
Fredrik Backman
I. I really appreciated you having me on. It was really nice I never know what people expect. I don't know what you were hoping for with this, so I really hope your viewers aren't disappointed, because I imagine they tune in for someone to be super smart and have profound insights and maybe know a lot of research and science.
- [57:33]
Simon Sinek
Well, then they wouldn't be coming to me because I know no research and no science. So they'd be disappointed with or without you if that was the thing they're coming for.
- [57:43]
Fredrik Backman
It was a real pleasure and thank you so much.
- [57:46]
Podcast Narrator
A Bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbinius, Phoebe Bradford and Devon Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonsinek.com thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.