Simon Sinek (4:41)

Very different from flirting.

Didi Haffill (4:42)

Very different from flirting. And it threw me into such a tailspin, because sometimes I share this story and I'll ask people, what does flirting look like to you? So if I were to ask you right now, like, what does flirting look like to you? How would you know if someone's flirting with you?

Simon Sinek (4:57)

Flirting, like, when you're in a social place with someone and you're both trying to send signals to each other, like, hey, I kind of like ya, and you look for to get those signals back. And you know, we're social animals, we're attuned to it, you know, some better than others, but it's the dance of mating.

Didi Haffill (5:14)

Yeah, but what are the behaviors you're seeing?

Simon Sinek (5:16)

What are the behavior seeing? Well, but I think context also matters. Like if I make a joke in a social context, it could be a flirt. If I make a joke in a professional context, just, you know, like I make a little self deprecating joke.

Didi Haffill (5:27)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (5:28)

You know, extreme flirting would be, I guess, touching, you know, somebody rubbing a knee or touching a shoulder, that's a flirt. I guess the proverbial batting your eyelids.

Didi Haffill (5:37)

Which I can't do.

Simon Sinek (5:38)

Which I can't do either.

Didi Haffill (5:39)

But it's hard. It is hard.

Simon Sinek (5:42)

It's a good question. It's hard.

Didi Haffill (5:43)

You make my point in that most of us can't describe it. And when we do, we say things like, well, you were smiling. You might have giggled. I actually touched one of your stuff staff members this morning when I came in and I said, how are you doing? I touched his shoulders. Right. And so these behaviors.

Simon Sinek (6:01)

Stop flirting with my stuff.

Didi Haffill (6:02)

I know, I'm sorry. Sorry. And so all of these behaviors that sometimes people say are flirtatious behaviors are the very same behaviors that I had to cultivate as a public affairs officer. Smiling, being nice.

Simon Sinek (6:18)

So is there such thing as female leadership or not?

Didi Haffill (6:21)

Yeah, so I was getting there. So I left there thinking, oh my gosh, there was so much about that experience that was different because I was a woman. And so yes, do I think sometimes there are things about being a woman in a male dominated environment that may just be behaviors that come naturally to us. Things like more communicative. Right. We tend to collaborate, we tend to communicate more. We tend to be more inclusive in bringing people in. Not exclusive to women, but maybe more practiced by women. And so yes, I think there are ways that men traditionally behave. There are ways that women traditionally behave. I don't think it's male leadership and female leadership. I think it is. There are some behaviors that maybe as a general rule, not in its entirety, that we might be more practiced at. I think there's a bigger discussion to have. Like you would ask me what it was like being a woman in the military. You know, is there female leadership? When I get asked the question, what was the hardest part about being a woman in the military? The answer I've come to is the emotional labor. Because I had these skills and I could sit in that discomfort of other people's emotion. People started to come to me, and I would have people come to me from other squadrons who would say, hey, ma'am, could I get 10 minutes of your time? And I'd be like, of course. Right? Because I want everyone to feel healthy and to get through, like, to talk about the things that are frustrating them. And what I realized after like a year or so of doing this was that that's real time. So spending all that time when people would want to talk to me about where they were struggling, the time I spent doing that, because I believe in it and I think it matters, is time I wasn't getting to go out and talk to my units. It was time I wasn't getting to do the admin that all of us have to do, wasn't getting through emails. It was a quantifiable thing. And so the hardest part for me about being a woman in the military was not all of the environmental things that people think about being a woman in the military. It was to be the kind of leader I wanted to be. Is it because I'm a woman or not? I don't know. But my ability to sit in that emotional space was time that my male peers did not have to expend their own. People weren't going to them to talk because they didn't have the ability to sit in this space with them, which means they had that half hour to do other things. They had that hour to do other things. That, for me, when I look back, is probably the hardest. That was the hardest thing.

Simon Sinek (9:05)

And this is something you told me, which is. But people respond differently to men versus women. You know, you told me about there was an army, I think it was an NCO who was in your command. He said to you, you know, ma'am, when a male leader yells at me, all good water off my back, totally got it hopped to whatever he needs me to do. When you yell at me, I feel like my mom's yelling at me, and it's a different response. And so I think when men engage with men and men engage, like, I think there is a dynamic of traditional mom dad dynamics. Is that true? Is that just unique to him that if you yell at him, it comes across very differently than if a male leader yells at him, how he responds?

Didi Haffill (9:46)

Yeah, I mean, same situation, same time. In Iraq, there were three female commanders. Two of the three of us were investigated for mistreatment of our airmen. A friend of mine was the investigating officer, and he said, I'm not seeing these women do anything. I don't see men do every day, but when the women do it, it is perceived to be more toxic than when the men do it. The research shows that when men behave differently than society thinks we should be behaving, we are held to a different standard, and it's used against us more.

Simon Sinek (10:23)

What was the behavior? What was the thing that they were upset about that men do all the time?

Didi Haffill (10:26)

Swearing.

Simon Sinek (10:28)

Swearing.

Didi Haffill (10:28)

Swearing was the big one.

Simon Sinek (10:30)

Swearing in the military.

Didi Haffill (10:31)

She cussed at me. She dropped the F bomb too many times.

Simon Sinek (10:35)

No kidding. That was the toxic behavior.

Didi Haffill (10:38)

That was it. It was the behaviors of get it done. Get your proverbial, get your shit together. And when women behaved in a way that we all see men do every day, in fact, in most cases, men are rewarded for it. They're decisive.

Simon Sinek (10:56)

So interesting. It's so interesting. And I think you're right. It's these societal expectations. It's not the behavior per se. It's the expectation in the lane. If we think about what the lanes are in the 1800s and the 18, like, if we go back through time, what the lanes for acceptable behavior for men and women have been, you know, those lanes move culture advances and norms and standards of behaviors change, and those lanes of expectations change. And that's very interesting that when somebody steps out of that lane of expectation, we find that jarring in your case, worthy of investigation.

Didi Haffill (11:31)

It's so interesting because what used to be held against women, I think is actually being held against men just as equally now. You know, I was in Iraq. That was 2010, so that's 15 years ago. And the way I'm watching leadership change now, the feedback I get from employees who are working for leaders who maybe grew up in a very command and control environment, they are no longer tolerating that even in a traditionally command and control environment of the military, it's no longer being tolerated.

Simon Sinek (12:05)

There's a new expectation. And too many, in this case, men is what we're talking about, have been practicing in a different lane, and now they're trying to conform to the new lane 100%.

Didi Haffill (12:13)

And they feel really lost because they've seen one kind of leadership modeled. The expectations are changing rapidly. They have not seen modeled the kind of leadership we actually need today.

Simon Sinek (12:27)

Okay, let's go deep.

Didi Haffill (12:28)

Yeah. Okay.

Simon Sinek (12:29)

We've been playing up here.

Didi Haffill (12:30)

Okay.

Simon Sinek (12:33)

When you were deployed, so three things happened to you simultaneously. Any one of those would have been difficult to manage by themselves. You were promoted, you were given your first command, and you were deployed for 365 days. So any one of Those things was. Is difficult to manage by itself. And all three of those happen simultaneously to you?

Didi Haffill (12:56)

And command of a squadron I had no experience in.

Simon Sinek (13:00)

And command of a squadron you had knew nothing about. Right. That wasn't your training.

Didi Haffill (13:05)

Right.

Simon Sinek (13:06)

Okay, so we'll add four things in there.

Didi Haffill (13:08)

I could add a fifth, but we won't.

Simon Sinek (13:10)

What was the fifth?

Didi Haffill (13:11)

I was the only female in my leadership group.

Simon Sinek (13:13)

Okay. So any one of those five things is difficult to manage. And you had all five things happen simultaneously. And off you went for your deployment. And I saw you maybe a week after you got back, two weeks at the most. But it was. You were. All the emotions were raw. The experience was raw. And we went out for dinner, and I asked you a very simple question, which is, how was it?

Didi Haffill (13:39)

It's so funny, because even putting myself right back in that moment, hearing you say it, like, I can feel all the raw emotions.

Simon Sinek (13:46)

Tell me, as best you can remember, you took command of a squadron that was underperforming. And if I recall, the previous leaders had all been fired. Like, the previous two or three leaders have been fired. And you were like, I'm gonna turn it around. I'm gonna be the one. I'm gonna be the one who fixes this and makes.

Didi Haffill (14:03)

If I recall, the career field as a whole was really having trouble with its commanders.

Simon Sinek (14:10)

You were responsible for all the base operations at Balad Air Base?

Didi Haffill (14:13)

Yeah. Feeding, fitness and fun and housing. I mean, just everything that allowed people to exist on the base. But the story I told you was that it just felt like everything was going wrong. I had a day where I went back to my trailer, and the inner story I was telling myself is, you are the absolute worst thing that has ever happened to leadership. You are a complete failure. Who thought that you could do this? Like, I had all of the shame narratives running on repeat and at max volume. And I had this moment where, you know, I first had my little mini, like, breakdown, but then I had this moment after talking to a couple friends about it, that I thought, if I have failed, and maybe I have, like, maybe I'm not meant to be a commander. Maybe this just isn't my calling. I'll go back to public affairs, which is all about engagement, communication. I'll just go back to that, and I'll have a great career in the Air Force. So if I have failed, what impact do I really want to have? What do I want these people who I have been entrusted to care for, what do I want them to know? I want them to know they matter. I want them to know that what they're doing here is not in vain. I want them to know that the time away from their family, the time away from their lives, the danger they are accepting is worth something. And it matters because so often the airmen in my squadron, so often they were the ones who took the brunt of everyone else's stress. I would have a pilot throw milk at one of my airmen at the dining facility because we changed the policy on takeout, right? We couldn't take out containers anymore. I would have my airmen get yelled at because their laundry wasn't done in a timely fashion, even though it wasn't my airman doing the laundry, it was a contractor. And so they were just always taking the brunt of people's bad behavior. And so they were always getting beat up. And you could see that in their energy. Like, it just felt like we were beat dogs. And I thought, I want them to know, like, that's not true. That story they're telling themselves isn't true. I want them to know they matter. And I didn't know it then, but it started the journey of the next 15 years of my career because I realized I may never be the best at anything. There are always going to be moments I'm going to feel like I'm failing. And who I want to be as a leader at the core is to make people know they matter and what they're doing matters. And what happened, the first thing that happened was I felt better. And when I felt better, I wasn't barking as much. I wasn't as stressed. I wasn't as tied to outcomes because I was more concerned about the people. And you could just see a tangible shift in the way they laughed with one another, the way they came to me with opportunities and new ideas. I could see the way my own officers took a breath. And I think just overall, the stress level of the entire organization dropped.

Simon Sinek (17:38)

But what ended up actually happening at.

Didi Haffill (17:40)

The performance level, you can't help but have better performance when you have all that.

Simon Sinek (17:43)

Yeah, I remember when you told me the story, and it's nice to hear it, you know, these 15 years later, because you're telling it differently. You're telling it with new perspective. And when I remember you telling me, which is, you know, you came in like, I was going to turn this place around. I was going to be this leader. I'm going to prove everybody, they chose the right person. And it wasn't working. Nothing. Nothing was working. And you told me that for six months, you cried yourself to Sleep. That you regretted being in the Air Force. You regretted serving your country. You regretted being in Iraq. You were homesick. You just. You wanted it all to end. And this is what you're saying, which is, at some point, you just accepted that you were a failure. And it was at the point of accepting failure that you said, well, screw it. If I failed anyway, I might as well make it that these people, for the time that they're away with their families, they have a decent time and prove to them that they matter. And things started to change. You did turn it around. It did become a highly successful command. And you went from fighting with those in your command to them. They would willingly follow you anywhere. I remember exactly where we were, too. I know exactly where we had dinner.

Didi Haffill (18:49)

Oh, across from the Pentagon.

Simon Sinek (18:50)

Yeah, it's Pentagon City. There's a little restaurant in that square. It's dark. It's like a pub. We sat in a corner in a very dark pubby kind of space, and we sat there pretty private, so we could talk.

Didi Haffill (19:01)

Champs. It's gone out of business.

Simon Sinek (19:02)

Okay, well, champ. That's right. It was champs. My God, listen, look at us 15 years later. You sat there and you're telling me this whole story, the emotions right on the surface, and you started to cry, and you said, I've never felt pride like this. Helping people realize they matter. A subject that I have talked about and a subject that I know you talk about. I genuinely want to know how you. How you've learned to manage the feeling of loneliness as a leader or in general. Like when I say loneliness, what. What washes over you?

Didi Haffill (19:40)

Oh, gosh, then I'm not alone in the feeling of loneliness, right? Like, it's everywhere. I'll tell you what made me feel the most lonely feeling. Like I had no support around me. I think I felt loneliness, but I don't know that I really had the courage to address it until much later in my career. And it was a moment that I was out with one of my squadrons. This story is actually in the book dare to lead. Dr. Brene Brown included this story in the book. And I was out having a conversation with a group of my airmen, presenting an award. And at the end of the award, I said, like, what's on your mind? Which is a question I asked regularly. And one of my airmen raised his hand and he said, hey, ma'am, when's the ops tempo going to slow down? Because, like, man, we're super tired.

Simon Sinek (20:27)

Operations tempo.

Didi Haffill (20:28)

Yeah, Operations tempo. And I said, yeah, I hear you. Like, we're asking a lot of you. And so I asked the group, I said, how many of you are tired? You know, the whole room raised their hand, and I said, we ask a lot of you. We've been at war for 20 years. When we're not at war, we're at home preparing for an inspection. When we're not preparing for an inspection, we're training for an exercise. Like, there is just always something to be doing. So I get it. Oddly enough, three days prior to that conversation, I had read an article in Harvard Business Review, and it was talking about this organization that went into five different companies that were all reporting high levels of exhaustion. And it wanted to understand what was happening in those organizations that was causing that. And so it spent months talking to their leaders, talking to their employees, looking at their policies. And it came back after two months and said, it's not that people are tired, but people are lonely. And it's the feeling of loneliness that was manifesting itself as this feeling of exhaustion that. That's the language we knew to use. Because the truth is, we didn't talk about loneliness at work, but we could talk about being tired. That's almost a badge of honor. Like, oh, I'm just so tired. I'm working so hard. But when ever in my career did I have someone, without prompting, say, I'm feeling really disconnected and lonely. And so I asked my group that day, said, if I were to ask you, instead of who's tired, who's lonely, how many of you would raise your hands? And I asked it completely rhetorically, because, again, not equipped really to have this conversation. And three quarters of the room raised their hands, and I stood there for a moment, one, kind of paralyzed, like, oh, shit, what do I do with this? But two, heartbroken, because, you know, this. Having spent so much time with dod, we have an epidemic of rising suicide rates. And I knew that because I'd spent my whole career working with senior leaders every year when the suicide data report was released, trying to once again find just the perfect messaging to reach our airmen, to share with them the tools that were available, the support that was available. And year after year after year, the numbers were increasing, and we weren't getting through. And here I am standing in front of a group of, let's be honest, mostly men, and they are sharing something with me that is a very real emotion, one we don't talk about. And I realize that we are not having conversations at the root level. And because we're not having those conversations at the root level, we are wasting so much energy just dealing with the symptoms. Because a word like lonely was so uncomfortable for us that we didn't know how to talk about it. I went to wing standup, which is our weekly meeting at the wing level, and I went to that meeting that week and I said, we need to be talking about loneliness. You know, luckily I'm at the table now, I'm not in the cheap seats against the wall. And to watch, I mean, you would not have seen discomfort more than we saw in that room that day. Like, you're like, oh my gosh, why is she talking about loneliness? Like, why are we having this conversation? That was the moment when I watched all of my fellow peers and other commanders. When I saw their discomfort, I realized we're never going to get to the root of this problem if we can't get over the discomfort of language. And that was the moment when I realized I have to use the word lonely if we're ever going to be able to show people it's okay to talk about it. Right. Like I had to as a leader go first in sharing that. So I think that's when I realized this isn't just a word that we should talk about in the dark corners where no one can really hear us. Like, this is the kind of language we need to be bringing out into the light on a regular basis.

Simon Sinek (24:14)

I find this insight not only particularly interesting, but very important because we can publicly talk about being exhausted. And when people are lonely, it may show as exhaustion, may feel like exhaustion. And so it's the easiest thing to say, especially because we don't want to come to work and say, I'm feeling lonely. And the problem is, even if you have a well intentioned leader who sees that you're exhausted, sees something's wrong, you check, they check in and you report, I am exhausted. They say, you know what, take a day off. You've been burning the candle at both ends, why don't you take a day off? Which means go be by yourself more.

Didi Haffill (24:52)

Yeah, right.

Simon Sinek (24:53)

So even well intentioned solutions to the problems that we perceive might, which is why we don't see the numbers change, which is why we see the loneliness epidemic rise in the military and other places, the suicide rates rising. I see the same in policing. I have a charity to help advance better leadership and better culture building. In policing, same thing. Very high suicide rates, higher than the national average. There's this intense loneliness and nobody knows how to talk about it for fear that it sounds weak or mushy or just fear that I'm ill equipped. Even the ones who want to talk about what if they say yes, I don't know what to. What do I just. There, there. Like, what do I say? So I think it's a very important conversation to say that these things exist. A friend of mine, who you and I both know who's active duty still, when they started offering therapists on base to talk to folks, all the commanders went, hey, we got a therapist on base now. You know, if you're feeling like you need to talk to somebody, I encourage you to go. But that commander never went. And so my friend was very vocal. He's like, look, if you got a busted leg, you say, go see the leg doctor. If you're having thoughts, you go see the head doctor. It's totally normal. And he would say very publicly, hey, I got a lot of stuff going on. Feeling super stressed out. I'm not going to be available from 3 to 4 on Thursday because I'm going to go see the therapist. Let me know if you need anything before or after that. It was very public that he was struggling and he was going to go talk to somebody and it normalized it to your point.

Didi Haffill (26:23)

I get brought into organizations that are very male dominated. Construction, law enforcement. I spend a lot of time with finance, which isn't always male dominated.

Simon Sinek (26:34)

It's pretty bro.

Didi Haffill (26:35)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (26:36)

Let's be honest. It's pretty bro Y and two of.

Didi Haffill (26:38)

Those three are because they too are really struggling with suicide rates and mental health, you know, mental health crisis.

Simon Sinek (26:46)

Yeah.

Didi Haffill (26:47)

And they bring me in because of, I think, my ability to talk about these hard things without being too soft because I come from such a hard background.

Simon Sinek (27:01)

Right, right, right.

Didi Haffill (27:02)

And if I'm being really honest, like I would have told you up until probably 2015. Yeah. Emotions have no place here. Like, we've got real shit to do.

Simon Sinek (27:13)

I've known you that long.

Didi Haffill (27:14)

Yeah. We don't need to be talking. We don't need to be talking about feelings.

Simon Sinek (27:18)

I've known Tuff Dee Dee and what.

Didi Haffill (27:21)

I realized is not talking about feelings was causing all the problems that were getting in the way of us doing good work. That you can avoid it for only so long. It's going to come back to haunt you. The problem in the military is that we rotate so much that we don't always see the long term consequences of that. Until we have a suicide epidemic, that is the long term consequences. It's an uphill battle. You know, I get that.

Simon Sinek (27:50)

But by the way, just as an aside, I hate the term mental health. Because it sounds like a goal to achieve. You either have it or you don't. I'm struggling with mental health issues, and I'm gonna do the thing so that I can achieve mental health, which is then all you're gonna do is lose.

Didi Haffill (28:10)

What would you rather call it?

Simon Sinek (28:11)

Mental fitness.

Didi Haffill (28:11)

Okay. Yeah, that's good.

Simon Sinek (28:12)

Cause it's an ongoing process. It's like physical fitness is something I always have to do.

Didi Haffill (28:17)

Right, Right.

Simon Sinek (28:17)

Sometimes ahead, sometimes I'm behind. But even if I'm in good shape, I have to keep doing it. And so I like mental fitness, which is like my body. I constantly work on my mind, and sometimes I'm super in shape, and sometimes I'm not, and sometimes it's my fault, and sometimes it's because of lack of sleep and all. Just like my body.

Didi Haffill (28:35)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (28:35)

And so it's just something you work on, and it takes the stigma of achievement out of it.

Didi Haffill (28:41)

From a mental fitness perspective, I'm quick learner, Simon. The work that helped me the most is understanding shame resilience. Anytime we have those feelings or thoughts of, I'm not good enough, or if I do this, who will they think I am? I learned this idea of shame resilience, which is all about how do I talk to myself, really recognize the stories I'm telling myself, getting outside of myself to normalize them, which is a reality check. And if I don't have the conversation to normalize and get the reality check, which is often like, can we talk to someone and be met with empathy to get a reality check on all the lies I'm telling myself? Because I can tell myself a lot of them, some good, some bad. But knowing the work of shame resilience, identifying it, naming it, reality checking it, and then rewriting the story. Right. Those are the steps of shame resilience. That is the regular weightlifting of my mental fitness. Because I am prone to shame. I had a lot of experiences in my past that have made me prone to shame, to thinking I'm not good enough, to thinking I shouldn't do that because then they'll think I'm too big for my britches. And so I can very quickly go right to shame. Oh, my God. That was horrible. You suck. What do you think you're doing? Did you see the way that guy in the front row was giving you the eye? Oddly enough, and you know this, the guy in the front row giving you the eye is usually the one who's thinking deeply about what it is you're saying. But that's not the story you Hear in your head. Because I now have those tools, and I have practiced them so much, they have now become close to second nature.

Simon Sinek (30:27)

What are the tools?

Didi Haffill (30:28)

Naming it? Reality checking it. Rewriting the story.

Simon Sinek (30:32)

Right. And let's talk about the difference between guilt and shame. Guilt is blaming the action. Shame is blaming yourself.

Didi Haffill (30:37)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (30:37)

You know, guilt is not necessarily a bad thing. Like, I told a lie. I need to talk to you. I feel really bad that I told you a lie. Guilt can sometimes produce good behavior.

Didi Haffill (30:46)

Right.

Simon Sinek (30:47)

Shame is. I'm a liar. I'm a horrible, horrible human being. So let me ask you a question. Let me game this out with you. If somebody is struggling with shame, I'm a horrible person. When you talk about reality checking it, does that mean going to somebody who can offer a safe space and be like, can I just run a story past you that I'm telling myself? I'm telling myself a story. Can I just reality check this with you? I think I'm a horrible person because I tell a lot of lies. I think I'm a liar, you know?

Didi Haffill (31:12)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (31:13)

And let's take one. Let's. Laziness. Right. I'm a lazy person. I don't get anything done. I'm unproductive. I'm never going to amount to anything because I'm lazy. Is that true? Am I lazy? It's very easy to see in someone's life. And I'll just, you know, when, when, when I to say, for some things, yeah, you are. Like, for some of you, like your schoolwork or your work, yeah, I've seen you lazy. But like, when you're with your kids and you run them around all day, it's the furthest thing from lazy. You have so much energy to help them with their homework. You're the complete opposite of lazy, you know, and to help people understand that these are narratives, not absolutes. Is this right? Am I getting it right? Kind of. Sorta.

Didi Haffill (31:55)

I think you're. I think you're almost there.

Simon Sinek (31:58)

This is why I had you on the podcast. What am I missing? Show me, teach me.

Didi Haffill (32:02)

I think you did what a lot of people probably do is you answer the question right. You said, yeah, you're lazy here, you're not lazy there. Versus when we go to someone, we're in that really vulnerable moment. If I am brave enough to be that vulnerable with you, what I need first is empathy and curiosity. So I need you to say, oh, that's a hard feeling. What's making you feel that way?

Simon Sinek (32:31)

Got it.

Didi Haffill (32:32)

And then I get to say, what's making me feel bad.

Simon Sinek (32:34)

I went into classic fix it mode. Terrible.

Didi Haffill (32:37)

I'm a fixer. I joke around and say I'm a recovering fixer. And so I think that is the problem with. That's part of the challenge. Especially at work, when we are not comfortable with sitting in the discomfort of someone's really shame inducing feelings. We want to go to fix it because we want to get them out of the discomfort. And honestly, we don't want to be in the discomfort because fixers. And again, recovering fixer. And I would say I'm only maybe 20% recovered. I'm still a really bad fixer. I mean, I'm a good fixer. I think my ideas are amazing. But I am. I'm still working on it because I am uncomfortable with your discomfort.

Simon Sinek (33:23)

Right, right, Right.

Didi Haffill (33:24)

I want to fix it because I don't want to see you uncomfortable because that makes me uncomfortable.

Simon Sinek (33:28)

Oh, that's such a good. Which is I want to fix it. Right. Which is why I think we go right back to the beginning of men versus women. Right?

Didi Haffill (33:36)

Yes.

Simon Sinek (33:37)

Which is women are more comfortable with uncomfortable emotions.

Didi Haffill (33:40)

Maybe I wasn't on balance. Yeah.

Simon Sinek (33:43)

Here's one thing I am comfortable saying. Men generally suck at it for societal reasons, which is we've been told that you can't be this, you can't be that from a pretty young age. Quit your crying. Why are you crying? Man up. This is what we get.

Didi Haffill (33:56)

Yeah.

Simon Sinek (33:56)

And so when someone expresses emotion to us, that makes us uncomfortable. So we don't have to deal with our emotions. It's easier for me to fix yours. My problem is solved.

Didi Haffill (34:06)

Yes.

Simon Sinek (34:06)

Don't really care about yours. Or I do. I do care about your problem. But in so doing, I get a twofer. I don't have to deal with mine. I fixed yours. I'm a hero.

Didi Haffill (34:16)

That's right. I often tell people it's not a matter of innate ability. It is a matter of societal conditioning. Like you said, men have been told you can't exhibit those behaviors and women have been allowed to practice them.

Simon Sinek (34:32)

Yeah. And you learned this in Iraq. You learned this in your own leadership journey. We cannot help others. We cannot be there for others until we're there for ourselves. When you accepted that I'm not cut out for this, so now I'll be. Now I'll worry about my people as opposed to worry about my performance. That was a shift. Which is to take yourself on and accept your own failings and opportunities makes you a better leader. And how can I hold space for another If I won't allow someone to hold space for me. And so the reason we call you leader is not because you're in charge. The reason we call you leader is not because you have rank over another. The reason we call you leader, the reason we were, we use the word lead, is because you went first. You literally went first. You led the people. Tip of the spear, right? If you want people to be open with their emotions with you, then you have to go first. You have to find the courage to be vulnerable with a friend if you want to be the kind of leader who can hold the space for somebody who is vulnerable, who finds the courage to be vulnerable with you.

Didi Haffill (35:31)

Yes.

Simon Sinek (35:32)

A good leader isn't the one that has all the answers. The good leader is the one who goes first and has empathy because they've done it.

Didi Haffill (35:39)

Can I share a story with you of what that looked like for me? So this was pre group command. I'm in an organization and I have a guy on my team who is supposed to be helping me manage the tasks in the office. And every time I sent him an email, the tasks wouldn't get done. I would send him a list of tasks and he might do one or two and the other ones wouldn't get done. And it was causing me a lot of frustration. And so I created this document that he could fill out to give me feedback on what he thinks he did well, what he thinks he doesn't do well. And I sent him the email with the form and I said, fill this out and when I get back we'll, we'll sit down and talk about it. And he sent me back an email and he said, I don't know if you know this, but anytime you give feedback to civilians, it needs to be on X and X and X form, which is just basically the middle finger in an email, right? And so that sent me high and right. And I was like, oh, game on, buddy. So I went back to the office, I wrote down a six page memo for record with 68 pages of documentation. Every single time I had asked him to do something in an email, I highlighted it. And so I sit down with him in our feedback session. I said, this is gonna be a one way conversation. And so I start and I'm like two sentences into the memo I had prepared for him to read and he blows up and he says, you are the most arrogant, egotistical, know it all person I've ever worked for. And he's like just going off. And this goes on for probably two, three minutes. And he finishes, and when he finishes, he just takes this, like, deep breath. And even though I was mad and I was frustrated, I looked at him and I said, listen, this isn't who I want to be. I want us to find a way to work together, but it's not working right now. And I need to know, what do you think we can do to make that happen? And in that moment, he started tearing up, and I said, what's going on for you? And he said, every time you criticize me, every time you tell me I didn't do something, every time you tell me I missed a suspense, what I hear is my dad saying, you're a loser. You're a failure. You're never going to amount to anything. Completely shifted the relationship between us. It never got great, but it definitely was manageable. And I think that's what I mean by, like, you have to go first. I was mad. I was so frustrated again. 68 pages of documentation. I was armored up, and I was ready to go to battle. And in that moment, I had to sit in my own discomfort of us not working, me potentially being a bad leader, me potentially not doing things the right way. I had to sit in that before I could ever get to the place to be who I wanted to be. But then once I could be who I wanted to be and I opened the door to showing my own vulnerability, he reciprocated. Right? Like, that's what I mean when you go first.

Simon Sinek (38:31)

I get asked this question all the time, Simon, what are the most important characteristics for a leader? You know, there's articles written about it. You know, vision, charisma, you know, and of all the great leaders I've met, some of them have big Steve Jobs visions, and some of them don't. Some of them have this insane charisma. Some of them don't. But the one thing that they all have is courage. And it's not just the courage to speak truth to power. That's a courage, but it's the courage to lead. It's the courage to go first. It's the courage to say, you know what? I don't want to be this person, or, this isn't working, or. Or I have to operate differently versus you need to operate differently. You know, it takes tremendous courage to do that. Tremendous courage. I would argue more courage than speaking truth to power. You know, that's a deep breath.

Didi Haffill (39:18)

It's the hardest work we'll ever do.

Simon Sinek (39:19)

Here we go. You know, it's like. But the courage to be vulnerable with somebody you don't want to be vulnerable in front of. That's the real thing. And the great leaders that I've had the opportunity to meet are the ones who are weirdly open about their shortcomings. They're just weirdly open about it to the point where, like you, you expect them to be these tough armored and they're just like, ah, I suck at that. Or nah, man, I'm way too distractible. Or I'm way too disorganized. They normalize being imperfect in the most beautiful, beautiful way.

Didi Haffill (39:51)

100%.

Simon Sinek (39:52)

I really appreciate you coming on. It's such a joy to hear from you.

Didi Haffill (39:54)

I'm so grateful to be here. It was so nice of you to ask.

Simon Sinek (39:57)

Of course.

Didi Haffill (39:57)

That was fun.

Simon Sinek (39:58)

That's the right answer. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, SimonSinek.com for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by Lindsey Garbinius, David Jha, and Devon Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Ruderschan.