How to Stop Being Socially Awkward (According to Science) with Behavioral Scientist Vanessa Van Edwards

Summary

Podcast Summary

A Bit of Optimism with Simon Sinek

Episode: How to Stop Being Socially Awkward (According to Science)
Guest: Vanessa Van Edwards, Behavioral Scientist
Date: May 19, 2026

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Overview

In this compelling and insightful episode, Simon Sinek welcomes behavioral scientist and author Vanessa Van Edwards for a deep dive into the science of social skills, awkwardness, and authentic human connection. Vanessa, a self-described “recovering awkward person,” shares her accidental journey into studying and teaching body language and social competency, illuminating both the challenges and solutions for navigating an increasingly digital, socially awkward world. Together, they unpack practical strategies, personal stories, and the core role of generosity and service in overcoming awkwardness and fostering genuine connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Modern Epidemic of Social Awkwardness

• Digital Displacement of Natural Social Interactions:
  • We're not practicing being human anymore; natural opportunities for social practice (asking neighbors for sugar, casual chats) have disappeared.
  • (00:00) “We don't call anybody up and ask for help. You don't go to your neighbor, you don't, you know, borrow some sugar anymore. We're having social struggles, social awkwardness, more than we used to.” – Simon Sinek
• Learning Social Skills is Now a Conscious Effort:
  • Vanessa stresses the critical necessity of purposefully learning social skills, as organic opportunities dwindle.
  • (00:13) “I think we're in the most critical time that if we don't learn it on purpose, we never will.” – Vanessa Van Edwards

Vanessa’s Discovery and Approach to Social Science

• An Awkward Person’s Journey to Social Science:

  • Vanessa began by sharing tips for fellow awkward people on early YouTube, expecting only a handful of viewers.
  • Through experimentation and research, her audience and influence grew, leading to teaching courses tailored for technical individuals needing “soft” skills.
  • (02:23) “I was very, very awkward… Those little tips were how I got through the day, how I stopped social overthinking.” – Vanessa

• Making Social Learning Safe & Incremental:

  • The biggest mistake is starting new skills with people who make you anxious, like your boss.
  • Vanessa introduces “microsocial skills”—small, authentic strengths that can be practiced in low-risk environments.
  • (06:21) “First, identify what you’re already good at… You need that courage to get you through the discomfort.” – Vanessa
  • (08:25) Simon describes practicing at dinner parties or on planes, safe spaces which are now rare but essential to recreate for growth.

Practicing and Reclaiming Social Spaces

• Recreating “Casual Collisions”:

  • Both agree that deliberate practice in low-stakes environments is crucial, given fewer natural opportunities.
  • (08:44) Vanessa: “Unless you create casual collisions… We have to recreate those to practice.”

• Practical Party Tips:

  • Vanessa shares tactical advice for introverts and awkward folks at gatherings — stand by the bar exit, gravitate toward art or books, and time your approach to groups during moments of laughter or “aha” to maximize openness.
  • (11:17) “My favorite place to stand is right as people exit the bar…”
  • (13:23) “Never walk up to a group and just stand there… wait for a group to be in a moment of laughter...”

Generational & Cultural Differences in Social Adaptation

• Generational Avoidance of Discomfort:

  • Younger generations may sidestep in-person social growth entirely, opting to design their lives to minimize discomfort, which stalls the building of social resilience and “social grit.”
  • (18:53) Vanessa: “My younger students are like, I’m going to craft my life and my career in a way where I don’t have to try it, avoid discomfort…”

• Consequences in the Workplace:

  • Vanessa describes “social friction” at work, where uncertainty and ambivalence degrade engagement and innovation.
  • (16:44) “Ambivalence and confusion is actually much harder to deal with socially than toxicity.”
  • (17:32) “If we’re not exercising social muscles, they will atrophy.”

The Power of Discomfort and the Myth of “Toxic”

• Learning to tolerate discomfort is one of the greatest career advantages and an essential social threshold.
  • (19:53) Simon: “I think one of the greatest competitive advantages anyone can have in a workplace is knowing how to be okay being uncomfortable.”

Relationship-Centric Growth

• All Career Inflection Points are Relationship-Driven:

  • Both Simon and Vanessa agree their biggest professional leaps came via relationships, not skills.
  • (20:58) “Every single inflection point was somebody reached out and said, I have an idea…” – Vanessa

• “Tricks” and Intentional Techniques:

  • Both share self-imposed rules to force better social skills (Simon only gave business cards if asked; Vanessa asked better, substance-based questions by pretending she’d introduce someone on stage).
  • (22:10) “That was my rule. If they didn’t ask… I had to learn to create value, be charming, be nice.” – Simon

The Spectrum of Introversion, Extroversion, and Social Energy

• Reframing “Introvert/Extrovert” with Ambivert and Social Battery:
  • Social interaction functions like a battery, with recharging and depletion varying by person and circumstance.
  • Vanessa highlights nuances: Not all introverts/extroverts are socially awkward or adept.
  • (25:36) “Most of us are ambiverts.” – Vanessa
  • (26:47) “Who’s letting you plug in and who’s draining you?”

Social Nutrition and Friend Types

• Metaphor: Social Diets and “Food Group” Friends:
  • Vanessa likens social life to nutrition: some friends nourish (meat/brisket friends), some are “cotton candy” fun but insubstantial.
  • (28:29) “There are meat friends, brisket friends… And then they’re like cotton candy friends…”
• Self-Awareness of Value Exchange:
  • Knowing what (and whom) fills or drains you helps improve social well-being.

Overhelping, Reading the Room, and “Put the Shoes in the Box”

• Trap of Over-Delivering or Overhelping:
  • Simon narrates how he learned, after losing deals, to “put the shoes in the box” — stop overselling once the job is done.
  • (40:47) “Put the shoes in the box.” – Advice Simon received about knowing when to stop selling/convincing.
• The Role of Real-Time Feedback:
  • Vanessa calls “in-the-moment” feedback (like Simon’s) a difficult but empowering micro-skill.

Authenticity as Intention Matching Action

• Authenticity is Not Mindless “Being Yourself”:
  • Authenticity means intention (to serve, to help, to respect) matches action and communication; using tricks manipulatively is inauthentic.
  • (34:57) “Intention matches action. Like what you want, matches what you’re doing and matches what you’re saying and matching with what you’re asking.” – Vanessa
• Caveat: Inauthenticity as Selfish or Manipulative:
  • If actions are for self-gain (to be liked, to close the deal, to impress) without true intention to add value, they fall flat.

Generosity, Service, and Healing Awkwardness

• Service as the Antidote to Awkwardness:
  • Both share personal and client/case stories: Helping others is the fastest, most genuine way to cure awkwardness or social anxiety.
  • (53:48) Simon: “Instead of trying to solve your problem, help somebody solve the problem you’re struggling with.”
  • (53:53) Vanessa: “The only antidote to my awkwardness is helping other people feel less awkward.”

Self-Liking and Relationship Anchors

• You Can’t “Be Yourself” If You Don’t Like Yourself:

  • Transparency: Many smart and talented individuals, even those who help others, have an inner streak of self-doubt.
  • Vanessa credits her husband, who stayed through her awkward phase and believed in her, for giving her the courage to like herself and to start her business.
  • (47:59) “He never left. And then he was like, let’s do this forever. And I was like, really? … I was truly shocked when he proposed.” – Vanessa

• Foundations of Courage:

  • One true supporter enables taking social and professional risks: “You only need one person in your life who’s like, I got you.”

Final Advice: Start Small, Practice Transparently

• Micro Skills and Practicing Authentically with Friends:
  • Practice new social strategies with people you trust. Tell them you’re practicing, invite feedback, and grow confidence in safe zones.
• Help Others to Heal Yourself:
  • The truly transformative social tactic: Focus wholly on making others feel seen, safe, and included.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If we don’t learn it on purpose, we never will.”
  — Vanessa Van Edwards (00:13)
• “Start with the micro skill that you’re very good at... because you need that courage to get you through the discomfort.”
  — Vanessa (06:21)
• “Social friction happens when you have someone on the team who goes, I need help with this task. I don’t know who to ask… I'm just gonna not ask."
  — Vanessa (17:32)
• “Every single inflection point [in my career] was because of a relationship, not a skill.”
  — Vanessa (20:58)
• “If I choose to only see the good in you, at some point, you'll believe me. It reinforces that we cannot live without each other.”
  — Simon (49:13)
• “You can’t ‘be yourself’ if you don’t like yourself… there's a very fine line between being likable and being authentic. The line is manipulation.”
  — Vanessa (45:29)
• “The only antidote to my awkwardness is helping other people feel less awkward.”
  — Vanessa (53:53)
• “Knowing how to be okay being uncomfortable... is one of the greatest competitive advantages anyone can have.”
  — Simon (19:53)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00–00:40: Set-up: The fading of organic social practice opportunities.
• 02:00–04:50: Vanessa’s accidental journey; how her awkwardness became her superpower and career.
• 06:21–08:43: Microsocial skills; identifying and leveraging one's natural strengths; practicing in safe settings.
• 11:17–13:23: Social navigation tips for parties and gatherings.
• 16:02–18:53: The crucial role of discomfort, social grit, and the risk of never developing it.
• 20:58–22:35: Relationships as the true driver of career growth and opportunity.
• 25:35–26:47: Ambiversion, social batteries, and energy management.
• 28:29–29:13: The “social nutrition” metaphor: brisket friends vs. cotton candy friends.
• 34:57: Defining authenticity: intention matches action.
• 40:47: The “put the shoes in the box” moment: know when to stop overselling/giving.
• 47:59–51:22: Vanessa’s journey to self-acceptance through the unconditional support of her husband.
• 53:48–54:56: The magic of service and helping others as the answer to social discomfort.

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Takeaways

• Social awkwardness is more prevalent and persistent because we have fewer organic opportunities to practice.
• Social skills can be learned at any age—but must be approached with intention and authenticity.
• Real connection and growth require both courage to be uncomfortable and generosity of spirit.
• Practicing social skills in safe, low-stakes environments—and being transparent about it—accelerates learning and builds genuine confidence.
• Helping others with the very thing you struggle with is the fastest way to heal yourself.

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If you’re seeking practical wisdom, humor, and real-world strategies for overcoming social awkwardness—and a healthy serving of optimism—this episode is a must-listen.

Transcript

[A]

We don't call anybody up and ask for help. You don't go to your neighbor, you don't, you know, borrow some sugar anymore. We're having social struggles, social awkwardness, more than we used to. Because there aren't the natural interactions that are forcing us to learn them.

[B]

Yes, I think we're in the most critical time that if we don't learn it on purpose, we never will.

[A]

That's a scary thought.

[B]

It's terrifying.

[A]

We are obsessed with finding the right words, saying just the right thing so we can get the job, get the girl, make a good impression. Sometimes we labor over our texts. Some of us can even stress for days, worried if we said the right thing or not. And now with AI, we're all learning to find just the perfect words exactly when we need them. But there's a problem. Making human connections takes more than words. It also includes things like body language, non verbal communication. And because we communicate digitally so often, we, we aren't practicing those skills like we used to. We aren't practicing being human. That's why I invited Vanessa Van Edwards onto the show. She's a self described recovering awkward person who spent 20 years studying the science of body language and what actually makes people click. In her book, how to Be Instantly Likable in Any Interaction, she makes the case that we can still learn the social skills we need at any age. Vanessa has discovered that all that stress and inside talk that goes on when we're struggling, it all goes away the second we decide to be more generous. If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe for more. This is a bit of optimism. I always love people's journeys, how they get started into what they do. And you have, I mean, I know you call yourself a recovering awkward person. I think it reveals a lot about our us, the careers that we find ourselves on. How did you get into what you do now?

[B]

By accident.

[A]

Always the best stories.

[B]

Always. So in 2007, this, this new website called YouTube started. And I was like, you know, this is kind of fun. And back then YouTube was a crazy place. YouTube was people unboxing things and, and

[A]

makeup and scratching on microphones.

[B]

I don't even know if that existed then. I don't even know that existed.

[A]

That came later.

[B]

And I was like, you know, maybe I could post on this thing called YouTube and I could share. I was very, very awkward. And at the time I was reading a lot of research on interpersonal intelligence, social skills, body language. And I was like, why is no one talking about this research? So I would open up my. My. My phone, you know, and I would start recording tips for other awkward people. And in my mind, there were maybe 15 of us. You know, I was like, this is for the other 15 awkward people who have just finished college and are trying to interview. And we're afraid of everyone. I also. My awkwardness is I think everyone's angry at me all the time. That's a brand of awkwardness that I have. Like, I'm so happy you're smiling, because otherwise I think you are angry at me. Okay, great. So I actually learned in the research that a certain kind of neuroticism misinterprets neutral faces as negative. And so I would share things like that. Hey, if you think everyone's angry at you, you might be misinterpreting. I wanted to say this is what an angry face looks like. And those little tips were how I got through the day, how I stopped social overthinking. Then all my videos started getting 100 views, 200 views. A thousand views. And then what happened was I started to read research and then do experiments on myself. So I would say, hey, this research experiment said that men love the smell of food on a woman. Great. Let's try it. So I got popcorn bags and I rubbed them on my forearms, and I'd go to a party, and I'd see if men said I smelled good. Right? The weirdest experiments ever. I would just try them. And that worked, by the way. That really worked.

[A]

Which food did men respond best to? Popcorn bag, not barbecue.

[B]

No, no, I didn't try that one. Ribs. I was just like, I put a rib in my purse.

[A]

That would have been good.

[B]

That might have worked. That might have worked. Vanilla also worked really well. So I started posting about these silly social experiments, and my first video went viral. And it. It completely changed everything that happened in 2010. And I started to get approached by people to create courses, and courses weren't really a thing back then. And also to do corporate trainings on soft skills. Specifically, there were companies who are hiring brilliant people, engineers, new managers who were very technically brilliant but didn't have social skills. And so they said, we think that you could speak to that group. So I started to create presentations teaching soft skills in a mathematical way, teaching soft skills with a science backing, so that really brilliant, technically brilliant folks could actually learn soft skills like they learned math or science.

[A]

I believe all these things are learnable, obviously, yes. But as you know, all of these things, when you are learning them, you are really in your head about them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, which makes it difficult because people don't know that they're learning. It's like a bicycle. At some point you stop saying pedal, pedal, pedal, and you just start writing. For somebody who is awkward, for somebody who is. Was an engineer and now has found themselves in a leadership position where now you have to have those human skills, otherwise you're not going to survive or at least not do well. How do you ensure that they stick with it till they get to the point where that it clicks because it is awkward overcoming awkwardness.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You're stuck in your head.

[B]

Overthinking, overthinking.

[A]

You've learned all the skills you've been teaching and you've learned about moving your hands, tone of voice and all of these things. But when you're talking to somebody, you're just thinking like, move your hands, move your hands. More hand gestures, gestures. Be, be interesting. Be interesting. You know.

[B]

Okay, so here's the mistake that people make with this is they start with the skill or the person they're most nervous with. So oftentimes they've read how to friends and influence people and they're like, okay, I'm going to go into my boss's office. Wrong, We've already made a mistake. Why would you start a brand new social skill? You're just trying for the first time with the person who makes you the most nervous. No. So wrong person first. Oh, and I'm going to go in and I'm going to say their name a bunch. So then they're like, good morning, Simon. Simon, how did you like the task last week, Simon? Simon wasn't a great. And it's like. And then you get the negative feedback. The boss is like, what is going on? Why are you using my name so much? And they're like, I'm never doing anything again.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So what I say is, no, we're going to start really small. I like micro social skills. Microsocial skills are the social skills that you're already good at that you didn't actually realize was a skill that you were naturally good at. So for example, telling a story is a microsocial skill. And there are some awkward people who are exceptional at telling very good, real stories, embarrassing moments, case studies with a client. So I, I would say, okay, let's start with the micro skill that you're very good at. That could be explaining something technical. That could be a story. That could be even quiet power, like listening really, really well. That could be a non verbal thing. That could be. You're really really warm, non verbally, you're good at nodding. You're good at eye contact. So first is identify what you're already good at because you need that courage to get you through the discomfort. Right? So I say, okay, let's start with the micro skill. And there's like a list. You know, we have a list of like 70 of them. Okay, start with the micro skill. Then. Who are the people who make you feel like your best sel? Who are the people already in your job where you're not overthinking? Let's try a little new micro skill that you might be good at with them. So it's like we're using soft skills as an experiment, and we're starting with the good. Because the only way to get through it, to get through the cortisol, to get through the adrenaline of like your heart pounding when you're trying something new, is to fall back on the micro skill that you're good at. I also think the same thing in conversation. So there are topics that some of us are very good at discussing. Right? Like you're very good at discussing certain topics. But I'm sure if I were to ask you about something that you knew nothing about, you'd be like, tell me more. And then you'd be out of your depth. We need to have back pocket topics that we are just like, so fired up about. Maybe we hit flow when we're talking about it. You know, we're passionate about it. So if you're in conversation by accident with your boss or the client, you can bring up that thing you're very good at and then you like, oh, yeah, here's my rhythm. And. And then we can try the new stuff.

[A]

As if social media and our phones haven't, like, done enough damage to us as social animals. This is another one of those where, you know, I mean, I can just tell you from my career as I'm listening to you. I used to try things out at dinner parties. I used to try things out sitting on the plane talking to the person next to me.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

When I first learned my why and I was practicing. How do I say it to people? And I got it wrong a hundred times. You know, people think I'm this expert because I'm just naturally good at it. No, I practice and practice and practice and practice. But I practice in these very safe environments where the stake, the stakes were zero. That's it, you know, oh, the person next to me on the plane thinks I'm an idiot, whatever. But those places are gone now.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

Those places are gone.

[B]

Unless you create casual collisions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. We've gotten rid of a lot of those casual interactions. You know, even before you could kind of practice your first impression when you went out to grab groceries, you could practice your first impression when you went to grab something. But now if I need sugar, I'm not going to a neighbor. I'm ordering it on an app. If I need to grab some dinner, I'm ordering it on app. I'm not even running into a store and getting something. If I need to learn something something, I'm looking it up on YouTube as opposed to calling a friend. I don't know if you remember this, but like dating ourselves. Remember when you didn't know something, you had to call someone who never had that experience. You never didn't know anything or you didn't know who to call.

[A]

Go on, Go on.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Like, I remember that. Of having to call someone be like, how do you do X?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they would have to walk you through it on the phone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Those were ways to practice. I don't know something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Saying I don't know is a. Is a skill. Right. Being able to say it and ask for help. And so I think that we have to recreate those to practice.

[A]

It's nice to call someone who knows something because you're right. We all go to YouTube and like. Or now AI teach me how to. Or show me how to like.

[B]

I call my mom less. Like, recently, since AI started, I call my mom less because now I used to call my mom when I had a question about something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now I don't want to bother her. So I ask AI and that worries me.

[A]

This is so interesting. The other thing, I mean, I'm fascinated by this awkward stuff because I still think I'm awkward. So I don't know what recovered in what way. Oh, I'm socially awkward.

[B]

Big groups, small groups.

[A]

I hate big groups.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Can't stand them.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

If it's noisy, I'm out.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

But I've also gotten comfortable being awkward.

[B]

Awkward.

[A]

And so though I've learned some techniques to compensate being a weirdo, nerdy kid, I've also just gotten comfortable with it. And my ex girlfriend used to make fun of me because we'd go to a party, like at someone's house, and there's like three or four people over here having a conversation. Three or four people over there having a conversation. Two people over there having a conversation. And I never knew how to interrupt a conversation. I would like show up. And I'd stand there awkwardly, and no one would acknowledge that I was standing there, and I sort of just slink away.

[B]

Horrible.

[A]

And she would make so much fun of me because I would just be standing by myself in the middle of the, you know, the garden, just sipping my drink in all these conversations. And I'm just. I'm just by myself in the middle. But I'm also, you know, I'm the anthropologist. So it's not that I'm just, like, staring off into the clouds in my own world. I'm actually taking the world in and watching everybody. And I enjoy watching people get to know each other. But I am by myself.

[B]

Yeah. Yes. By the way, can I give you some tips for your party? Okay. Your next party. Okay. The worst place to stand at a party is right near the entrance where people are putting away their coats or just getting off their shoes. They cannot make deep conversations because they're needing to do their things right. Get their drink, get their food, go to the bathroom. So never stand. I call that, like, the entry zone. Like, never stand there. I also think a big mistake is stand near the food. People stand near the food. The problem is, is when people are near the food, they're focusing on their food. And also you're going to have a conversation mid bite, which never works well. People want to sit down, so never stand there. My favorite place to stand is right as people exit the bar. So wherever the drinks are set up, it's that moment where someone turns around and faces the room with drink in hand that you are a social savior. They have just gotten their drink. They're turning around from just filling their drink with ice. If you are standing right there, you have a very easy opener. So what brings you here? How's the drink? Is the wine good? That moment is awkward for everyone. It doesn't matter how extroverted you are. If you are in a room where you don't know who you're going to talk to next and you just had your filled drink, let me tell you, there's panic. Someone might not look panicked, but they're like, with their drink, and they're like, let it be you. So that's my favorite place to stand. Right as you'll exit the bar. Second choice. Let's say everyone's in groups. Are you, like, I don't know if I can do it.

[A]

You're assuming that I want anybody to talk to me.

[B]

Well, that's. Well, this is also a question.

[A]

I'm totally standing by the coats.

[B]

Okay. No, not by the coats. Okay. The other place that you might like, which you might like is. Do you know where I was standing when I got here? By your art.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I love art and I love books. So buy someone's art or buy someone's bookcase. Because one, I'm always fascinated by the art and books people have in their house. Like, I can learn about them. So no matter what, even if no one talks to me, I'm a happy camper. Because I'm looking at that art. I'm looking at who did it, I'm thinking about it, or the books. I'm like, ooh, what? What are they reading right now? And sometimes you actually attract the right person. There are people who are also searching for the person they've just come in. And if they see you in your own mind, totally happy by yourself, they might come over and be like, oh, you know, what is this person reading? Or, wow, that's a beautiful painting. So that's a good way to do it. The last option, which I want you to try, if you're willing, if you're brave enough. Never walk up to a group and just stand there. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. And people often are like, what is this person doing here? Yeah. So what you want to do is wait for a group to be in a moment of laughter or a moment of ha. Then you walk up, you touch someone lightly on the arm, and you say, you look like you're having a great time. May I join? That moment of goodness that's happening in that group, there's something magical happening in that group. They're laughing at something. They're having aha Moment. That is their peak openness moment. And if you walk in and you ask for help, social help, you are going to tug on a part of their heartstring that's like, oh, of course you can join. Come. You know, we were just talking about how her dog just, you know, did this thing in her couch. It was so funny, let me tell you. So you look like you're having so much fun. May I join?

[A]

Are we living in a time where we shouldn't be having this conversation? You know, as social animals, you, you know, some more, some less, some better, some worse. But you bumble and fumble through life, and you learn a lot of these skills. You were saying? Because we don't call anybody up and ask for help. You don't go to your neighbor. You don't, you know, borrow some sugar anymore. And if you have kids, you're not Sending them to the neighbor to go get the sugar, you know. And so I was talking to a family. They have a 14 year old who's afraid to answer the door because there might be a person there. These are things, whether you wanted to or not, you had to learn them because that was the only way to get these things. So are we living in a time where though we could be helping people learn these things in the past, everything's exaggerated. Like we're, like we're having social struggles, social awkwardness, more than we used to. Because there aren't the natural interactions that are forcing us to learn them.

[B]

Yes. I think we are in the most critical time that if we don't learn it on purpose, we never will.

[A]

That's a scary thought.

[B]

It's terrifying.

[A]

A friend of mine talks about this in terms of dating as well. She, she, she makes the connection to entrepreneurship where when you're young you learn the discomfort of asking someone out, getting accepted, getting rejected, asking someone out, learning how to say no, learning how to say yes, no, but I mean yes, but I mean yes, but I mean no. And there's a repetition that goes with it because if you. Otherwise you'll never go out. And whether you like it or not, you learn it. And now you don't have to learn it. You can swipe. Right. You never know that you've been rejected so you don't have the awkwardness of rejection, which by the way really important to learn, especially later in life. Things are not going to go exactly according to plan. And having the ability to like fall over and get back up is, is a learned skill.

[B]

We don't talk enough about social grit and social resilience. We talk about grit and resilience mentally in terms of working through something. But social resilience, having someone reject you or worse. I actually think ambivalence is worse than rejection. Yeah, Ambivalence is very confusing for awkward folks. Ambivalence is very hard at work. Right. A lot of my folks, like I'm doing a corporate training and they'll say to me, I don't know if my boss likes me. And I can't live with that fact.

[A]

Yeah, because you can deal with bad news.

[B]

I can deal with a toxic co worker.

[A]

I can, yeah, I could deal with

[B]

a boss I hate.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I, I don't know my boss and I don't know if I like them. And also I don't know if they like me.

[A]

Ambivalence or sometimes we don't like them because we've Misinterpreted. We have a narrative. They don't like us, so now I don't like them.

[B]

And then, and what do we want to do? Avoid anything that causes us any kind of confusion. Ambivalence and confusion is actually much harder to deal with socially than toxicity. So if someone is having confusing social interactions, especially at work, productivity goes down, engagement goes down. I call it friction, right? Like when I talk to companies where they're very focused, you know, bless them, on technology and tasks and productivity, and I love all those things. But if you don't focus on your social connectedness at work, on the social skills of your organization, you are going to have so much friction that you're not going to get things done. Social friction happens when you have someone on the team who goes, I need help with this task. I don't know who to ask. I'll try AI. AI doesn't know. I could ask that colleague, but I don't really know that colleague. I never reach out to them. I'm afraid I'm just gonna not ask. And so all this friction of I'm not gonna communicate, I'm gonna miscommunicate. I don't know if they like me, we're in a team meeting, but I feel very uncomfortable. So I'm gonna under present my idea, or worse, external communication. You go to meet with a client and because you're so socially awkward, you do the idea pour, right? You don't present the idea in a beautiful way or you miss the mark because you're so wrapped up in your own head about your body language and how you're coming across that you can't even present it. That's missed business. I think the same thing is happening socially where if we're not exercising social muscles, they will atrophy. I've been doing this for 20 years. This is the first time where I have students of five generations, right? I have 12 year old students and I have 90 year old students who are taking my classes. Never before have I had that. What I have learned is that oftentimes millennials, Xers, Boomers, they will be like, I'm uncomfortable, I'm awkward, but I'm going to try it and I'll try to figure out how to do it. Either I'd like it or I don't. My younger students are like, I'm going to craft my life and my career in a way where I don't have to try it, avoid discomfort, right? And so they'll just say, I'm really socially awkward and So I have to work from home. I'm really socially awkward. So I'm going to make sure that I do all my socializing via WhatsApp or via apps. And they limit the number of friction.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Interactions they're having. And it's very hard to practice social skills if you're not socializing.

[A]

It's something that concerns me, which is the discomfort with being uncomfortable.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And being uncomfortable is a fact of life. It's also a normal social thing. There's many things that factor into discomfort. And to your point, which is I don't. You know, I'm socially awkward, so I'm just gonna. I. I have to work from home, but I prefer to work from home.

[B]

I have to.

[A]

I have to work from home. Or even just like, if something doesn't go well at work or you get in trouble, you know? And we're not talking about toxicity here.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

Like, very. There are very few sort of truly, truly toxic workplaces where it's abusive and you're getting yelled at and demeaned and

[B]

that you should be out of.

[A]

And you should be out of there in two seconds. And that's not common.

[B]

No, it's confusion.

[A]

The term toxic is thrown about a little too loosely. That's really describing uncomfortable. You know, it's a toxic workplace. I'm like, you mean you got in trouble for screwing something up? You know, yeah. Maybe your leader does or doesn't have the skills, and maybe they bumbled and fumbled it, but it's just uncomfortable.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think one of the greatest competitive advantages anyone can have in a workplace is. Is knowing how to be okay. Being uncomfortable. To your point, you know, sales calls that go badly. It's uncomfortable being the one who makes it go badly. Really uncomfortable being on the receiving end of uncomfortable news. Being the one who's giving the uncomfortable news. You know, and I've seen organizations that are dysfunctionally passive aggressive.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because nobody wants to be the person who gives.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Feedback.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you see people have these meh careers because they just keep getting moved around because no one will tell them that they suck at something because they're too afraid of making them uncomfortable.

[B]

Meh is the. Is the way that. That is what we're facing is. It's not toxicity, it's flatlining.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that the way that I like to think about this is that having the right social interactions actually give you opportunity for growth. I've had a very weird career, but every inflection point in my entire career has come from A relationship, not a skill.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not a course.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Every single inflection point was somebody reached out and said, I have an idea. Or do you want to work with this thing on something? Or an editor coming backstage and saying, I want to publish your book. All of those things happened when. Because of a relationship. And as a competent science lover, that drives me crazy. I would rather just sit at home and work harder.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that that's what makes me so sad, is all of our students are very smart, very hard working, and they're hoping they can do it without the socializing.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But I think it's incredibly hard to be able to have not meh. If you don't do it.

[A]

There's so many things popping through my head. I love sitting down with you because you are affirming and reinforcing a lot of things that I stumbled on by accident in my career. So I'll give you an example as a young entrepreneur. And I would, I'd come. Somebody fortunately gave me some feedback, like, you're coming on too strong, you know, and it's mainly discomfort and it's mainly insecurity and it's mainly like, I gotta close every deal with everybody I meet immediately, otherwise it's never gonna happen, you know, and so. Too much, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I, I came up with a trick for myself. I would only give someone my business card if they asked.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

That was my rule. If they didn't ask and I was sitting there, sometimes I want to give it so badly. So I had to learn to create value, be charming, be nice. To the point where they go, do you have a card?

[B]

Love it.

[A]

And now it drives me nuts when somebody walks up and goes, hey, nice to meet you. Here's my card. I'm like, didn't ask for it.

[B]

You didn't earn that.

[A]

Didn't earn it.

[B]

I love it. And gsa, don't, don't do that to sign it.

[A]

But it really helped me hone a skill.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it wasn't because I was like, I'm going to be charming. That wasn't the goal.

[B]

No.

[A]

The goal was how do I create an environment where they'll ask me for a business card or when I would have a first time client meeting. My goal was not to close the deal. My goal was create an environment in which they will say yes to a

[B]

second meeting or ask you for one.

[A]

Yeah, either one.

[B]

Did you have an inflection point in your career? Like the biggest inflection point if there Was one and was it relationship based?

[A]

I don't know, is the answer. I can't. There's nothing that stands out that I can remember, but I just know that I. I'm self aware enough that if something's not working and I'm aware enough to know that I'm the only common factor.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So if this thing's not working, I could blame everybody else. It's probably true. But on the rare exception that it might be me. Let's go with that one. So, yeah, no, no. I was so like, for example, if I'm struggling to close business, then it's got to be me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But the thing is, it wasn't the quality of my PowerPoint, it wasn't the quality of my email, it was the quality of the relationships that I could create and the conversations that I could have. So it was still relationship based.

[B]

I think tricks for yourself work really well. In fact, this is another micro skill is like how do you get through the thing or the interaction? You reminded me of a trick that I used to do for myself that really helped is I also got feedb that talking to me that my conversations were like small talk. It was too much about fluff, wasn't about actual substance. And I was like, that's because I'm afraid to talk about substance. And so a trick that I gave myself is I want to pretend that I'm about to interview this person on stage and I have to introduce them. My social anxiety comes when I'm like aimless, like when I don't have a purpose in conversation because then we default to like, what's the weather where you are? What's the weather where I am? So I was like, if I'm pretending that I'm about to walk on stage and introduce this person, I. The nature of my questions change because one, I'm listening very deeply, I'm listening to remember. And that helped. But second, I was like, I need to find out the treasure about this person. I need to figure out something about this person that's interesting enough that I could go share with other people. And that completely changed the nature of my conversations and made them more enjoyable. I think I was awkward because I was having bad conversations, but that was my fault. As you said, I was the common denominator there. And so the other thing that I like to teach students is you're in control of the type of social interactions you want to have. Right. Like if you go in with a certain intention, you can create that intention. You just have to know how to do it like the back door into confidence. Like, the back door is going in with very specific blueprints of how you want to interact. Right. Like you have a basic blueprint of how you want a house to look. Every house is a little bit different. Maybe you can decorate differently, but you want to know your basic direction of where you're going in that house.

[A]

And then the stuff you're teaching are some of those skills to get there, which are learnable and practiceable.

[B]

If you're willing to be.

[A]

If you're willing to be uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. If you're willing to be uncomfortable. And I love Susan Cain's definition of introversion versus extroversion, which is it's not about social awkwardness or friendliness, it's about energy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which is. The introvert wakes up with five coins in the morning, and every social interaction, they spend a coin, and by the end of the day, they're depleted. The extrovert wakes up in the morning with no coins. Every social interaction, they get a coin, and by the end of the day, they feel rich. And the reason I think that's important is because I know socially awkward and socially functional extroverts.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So do I. I also only know socially awkward and socially functional introverts.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So that I can be friendly and charming and outgoing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Doesn't mean that I'm an extrovert.

[B]

It doesn't mean you're not spending coins.

[A]

It doesn't mean that I'm like. Like, oh, I can do it, but I am shattered at the end.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yes. I also think that we have to add a layer to that and that that definition is foundational, that most of us are ambiverts.

[A]

Yes. There's very small percentages of the. Of the population that are truly introverted

[B]

and truly extroverted, and that definition for them isn't enough. Meaning they'll go, well, okay, I have five coins. The beginning of my day. But some people take a lot and some people give me a lot. And so the nuance I think conversation we can have is, if you think of it like a social battery, is who charges you? Like, who's letting you plug in and who's draining you. Right. Like, what's the app that drains you?

[A]

And it's definitely with strangers too. Right. There are some strangers that are exhausting, and there's some strangers that I'm like, I want to spend more time with you. Yeah. That are engaging and fun and probably took your class and do everything that you suggest, which is why they're so fun and engaging.

[B]

Are you usually giving coins or taking coins?

[A]

I have adhd, which adrenaline is my best friend because I become lucid and I become calm when adrenaline pumps. Which is one of the reasons I'm good on stage is because a. I don't really have to talk to anybody.

[B]

No, I love being on stage. It's so lonely up there, but in a good way.

[A]

And, and I have the adrenaline pumping. So when I come off st stage, I'm the friendliest, most charming, most incredible fun, you know, Totally.

[B]

You know, I write all my best content right after I left stage and

[A]

everybody says to me, do you want a break before the next thing? I'm like, no, no, no. If I take a break, I'll crash. No, no, no. Keep me going. I'll crash at the end of the day. So as long as the adrenaline's pumping, I'm golden. Sleep for me is also a big deal. If I don't get enough sleep, I'm not fun, I'm not inquisitive, I'm not curious.

[B]

I think we should talk about this more.

[A]

My ambiverion. The problem with my ambiverion. I agree. I think, I think everyone's an ambivert, right? To say I'm an introvert actually is actually. I think everyone's actually silly. I think so. You know, I think everyone's an ambivert and a lot of it is circumstantial to what you said, but that's good.

[B]

Like, I think we should be talking about this. Like we talk about our nutrition. I look, I love self care and fitness movements and we talk about fitness and nutrition a lot. We should be talking about our social fitness. We should be talking about friendship, nutrition. There are meat friends, brisket friends who give you so much protein, they are just so good. We should know who those people are in our lives. We should know who those colleagues are in our lives. And then they're like cotton candy friends, you know, those friends that feel good but they don't fill you up. Like, they give you a lot of that chemical burst of sugar, but it'll root in your teeth, right. If you do it for too long.

[A]

But you can have them for a treat.

[B]

You can have them for a treat. So I think, like, we talk a lot about our nutrition and what we're putting in our bodies, what we're doing to our bodies. And we should be thinking the same way about our socializing.

[A]

I like who.

[B]

Who fills you. What fills you, where fills you and

[A]

when fills you and who do you fill?

[B]

Oh, I think you have to.

[A]

I think you have to know what food group you are.

[B]

Absolutely. And are you willing to give it and.

[A]

Because I, you know, and I can, again, in the spirit of Amber version, I can be multiple food groups, depending on who.

[B]

Who I'm with, and that can be dangerous. I have a friend who is dating, and I said, how's it going? And she said, you know, I can't tell on a. If I'm having fun or if I'm fun. And I realized that's a really interesting thing that some extroverts have this. Or I would say ambivert's leaning extrovert, where they are so socially adept and so fun. A lot of leaders have this that are very charismatic. You know, those leaders that we work with that are very charismatic, man, they light up a room. They have trouble knowing the difference between are they creating all that charisma in the room and they're kind of giving it, or are they actually having a good time and having connections.

[A]

So I'll tell you, I am so glad I got this feedback. I knew I was socially awkward, and because I knew I was so afraid of not being fun and not being engaging, I would jack up with caffeine before I would go on dates.

[B]

Okay, that's not great.

[A]

I was great.

[B]

Fun. Fun for that.

[A]

I. And I was so fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that was the problem. That was the problem, which is I was the fun.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And I went on a date, and I. And it was fun. And she was laughing, and I was laughing, and it was fun. It was fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And at the end of the day, I said to her, I am like, I had so much fun. I'd love to go out with you again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she said to me on the date, she goes, simon, I had a blast, but I do not want to go out with you again. I went, what? She goes, too much.

[B]

Too much.

[A]

Like, you're great. You're fun, but too much. And did it hurt? No. I said thank you to her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, yeah, of course it hurts.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But I was so grateful. And I wish I got the feedback, you know, years before. Yes, like, objectively, I was fun.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But I was the only one being fun because I didn't leave any space for anybody else to be fun.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think we do that in sales calls, too. I think people show up to, like, do the presentation. I mean, you know this data better than I do, which is the I. The average bad sales call. A Salesperson will ask, on average, something like seven question, and the average good sales call. A salesperson will ask on average, 32 questions or something like that. That's it, you know, and it's like, let somebody else talk.

[B]

Okay, but listen, I have. Wait a minute.

[A]

My turn.

[B]

No, no, no, no. I have nuance. I have nuance here. Okay? So we're given this advice, right? I've asked a lot of questions, okay? Now, a lot of students will come to me after they've gotten some of this advice, and they're like, it went really wrong. And I'm like, okay, let's look at the nuance here. I don't love that study. Here's why.

[A]

The question study.

[B]

Yep. I don't love it because, look, I love asking more questions. That's great. But here is the problem. I think there are two types of people in the world that you have. People who love entertaining, and they want you to ask all the questions. They could tell their favorite stories. They're great charmers or great storytelling. They want the ball a lot in conversation. And then there are people, and they're often VIPs, typically, who do not like to be asked questions. Like me, for example. I do not like being asked a lot of questions. I want to listen to your stories, so I want to be entertained. And so what happens is, if you go into interaction with someone and you just give them the question approach, One, it can be like an interrogation, and that's very inauthentic, especially if you're not really interested in the answers. And two, if you have someone who is a little bit more on the introverted side of that ambivertion, and they're very intensely private, they will feel very pushed, and you'll begin to spike their cortisol and spike their adrenaline. Like, I'm a. Even though I'm on social media, I'm a very private person. I'm adept at avoiding any personal questions. Very adept at it, because I don't want to talk about anything personal. And so if. When I'm in a situation where someone's asking for my life story, I'm like, I don't know you yet. So I think we have to be very careful with the way that we ask questions. Our intention, is it authentic, or are we just trying to be charismatic? And two, do they like that?

[A]

I think. I think this is the. A perfect summary of everything we're talking about here, which is it's about authenticity.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

And we confuse the intention with the instruction. And it goes Back to my business card thing, which is my goal wasn't to be more charming. My goal was to create conditions in which they would ask me for my business card. Right. But if I simply set out be more charming, I'd do all the tricks.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it wouldn't be authentic.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think you're right. I don't have a problem per se with the Study about the 7 versus the 30 something questions for the salesperson. But we're confusing the intention, which is curiosity. It has nothing to do with how many questions you ask.

[B]

Right. You know, 32 questions. Check.

[A]

Exactly. It has nothing to. You could ask three incredibly good questions and you're golden.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's not about the questions, it's about the curiosity. And on average, people who are more curious are probably more likely to ask more questions. But it's the curiosity, not the questions. You have to know why you're doing all of these things. Not just, not just do the things. Because you can teach the checklist and it doesn't make somebody.

[B]

And then this, and then this.

[A]

It doesn't make somebody interesting or engaging. And then it's, it's, it's, it becomes actually manipulative.

[B]

Right. So it's intention, curious. And the second piece that I think we always forget is decoding their cues. If you've asked a very well intentioned, authentic question and you see fear, so the whites of their eyes flicker at you, they immediately lean back and maybe they do a blocking behavior or they begin to self soothe. Something about your question just made them uncomfortable. The last thing I want to do for someone else in conversations, make them uncomfortable because that's how I often feel. I don't want to give that to someone else. So if you read their cues and you're like, oh, whoa, I just saw a little cluster of fear, discomfort, a little blocking. You can take the ball back and be like, oh, you know, for example, here's my story. Or you know, gosh, that was too, too much too fast. Let's try again.

[A]

You can actually, you can get a do over.

[B]

Yeah. And you can respect someone enough to say, I want to connect with you so much that I want to do it at your pace. I have the intention to get to know you. I have the intention to be curious. But I want to do it at a pace that you're comfortable with. That I think is real connection. And we forget that last reading piece. And that's why you have people who say, you know, I tried asking the five questions and they didn't Work with my. And I'm like, well, what did their face do? What did their body do? Did they use vocal fry like what was going on for them? Interaction is two way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can only learn so many things one way.

[A]

Yeah. How do you define authenticity?

[B]

Intention matches action. Intention matches action. Like what you want, matches what you're doing and matches what you're saying and matching with what you're asking. I think it's inauthentic if someone's like, I'm gonna get this business from them, but I'm gonna act like they're my friend. Intention does not match action. You wanted to add value. Your business card trick is. I would call that wanting to add value to this person so much so they want to connect more. I love that approach to interaction. Your intention was matching what you were trying to do. I think what happens a lot of the time is people very well meaning. And this, I see this all the time in corporate is someone's intention is to be respected, is to not be underestimated, is to be taken seriously. That's a lot of folks who come to me feel like they've been underestimated, overlooked and interrupted. So their intention is good. And then they try to learn these tricks to be taken seriously. And so they lower their voice like Elizabeth Holmes. And then they act like they're faking it till they make it. I think that if your action feels fake and manipulative, it's going to come across and it's not going to match your intention. I think that's where people get into trouble. Also.

[A]

It's selfish, you know, which is I'm going to do all these things so that people like me more versus I'm going to offer value.

[B]

Value. There you go.

[A]

I'm going to do something for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And my, my metric that I've done something for you is you'll say yes to a meeting, you'll ask me for a business card, or you'll give me your business.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, all of these things are metrics and proof of perception of value.

[B]

I like it because we talk. I was just talking about social fitness. What if we. I mean, I'm just thinking out loud, but like, what if you thought about social metrics, right? Like what means that your intentions matching your action is like, people are wanting to spend time with you. People feel like you're being helpful to them. People say to you, wow, I've loved spending time with you. Those are all the metrics that you're going for.

[A]

I mean, look, you and I know it from being in the world, right? Which is if you're an entrepreneur or a salesperson or you do anything that has some sort of collection metric, whether it's money or followers or whatever, you know, which is you can manipulate people and trick people and get people to click or buy or any of these things. But the problem is the metric, right? Which is if you're driven by the metric, right, then you will find ways to drive the metric. But if you are driven to create authenticity and to create value and offer people something, money is the unintended byproduct of being part of something larger than yourself. And so, of course, I look at book sales and I look at, you know, I look at those things, but only over the course of time. Yeah, I'm not interested in any of my metrics in snapshots. I'm not interested in the week or the month because they don't tell me anything.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, I want to know that those things are doing well over time because that, to me, over time is proof of value. I don't get any friends to write fake reviews on Amazon. I don't get everybody to buy a book within the same hour to spike my Amazon sales. And I know all the tricks. I know what other authors do. Yeah, but then how do you know you've done good work?

[B]

Right?

[A]

And I'm more interested in knowing that I've done good work.

[B]

I was just thinking about this as you said it. So there was a long time with my social media, and social media has been real interesting for me because I started on YouTube and then all these other things came about and I was frustrated a couple years back with my metrics. Right. I did not feel like we were growing as, as fast as I was putting in effort for it. And I kept looking, you know, I'd refresh my feed and like, metrics aren't growing. Metrics aren't growing. So I was like, no more. I told my team, I was like, aggressively helpful. Our new measure is aggressively helpful. If we're going to put out a video, my mission is to put out free public education every single day. That's what we do. Free public education every single day on social skills so that anyone could learn social skills no matter what. Okay, I love Views Engager, don't get me wrong. But, like, the metric is, is this video aggressively helpful or funny? Because I think funny is also helpful in its own way in this, in this world, right. We need to have a little bit of laughter.

[A]

Funny as a value.

[B]

Right? So that became the new metric and everything changed. Of course content became easier. Of course our socials exploded. Like, of course it's more fun. I think that if you can think of that in your interactions, is it aggressively helpful? Is it adding value? Is it offering wisdom? Is it being kind? Is it being a good listener?

[A]

And in real life, it's one thing on socials, but in real life, you still have to read the room very much because, like, you know, again, I've been on the receiving end. Yeah, I've probably been on the giving end, too. But you know, where I'm just like, I'm good. I appreciate all the help. I'm good. You know, that would be unsolicited advice.

[B]

Thank you for bringing this up. This is another piece of advice where if you don't do the second intention, right, someone wants to help you. And actually what they're probably thinking is, I want Simon to like me, so I'm going to be helpful. Okay. So someone comes into an interaction with you and they're wanting to be helpful, and that's a good intention, but they don't read you, which is, I'm good. It's too much. I don't need the help. And they keep going. And that actually ends up making you uncomfortable.

[A]

I just watched it happen a few days ago where I was talking to a friend of mine. It was at an event, and a guy walked up and made a very generous offer to her. And she was like, yeah, actually, I'd. I'd be up for that. Thank you. And if he just walked away, he would have been good.

[B]

What happened?

[A]

And then he made another offer, and she's like, okay. And then he, like, pulls a gift out of his bag and, like, you should try this. And it's like, it got to the point where, like, she needed rescuing. He was so nice and so generous and so kind, and he kept going and going and going. I used to be that young entrepreneur. And I remember I. When I was a young entrepreneur, and I. I brought in a. She was my work mom at my previous job, and I brought in as a freelancer to come work with me now. And then I brought her to a new business pitch with me, and I made my pitch and the pitch went great. And then I kept pitching. And she leans. She leans over to me and she says, put the shoes in the box.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so I'm keenly aware now, like, all these little pieces of advice that people have given me that have become, like, stuck in my head. So, like, I'm Constantly paying attention. Okay, I'm done. I made the sale. Put the shoes in the box. I'm done. You know, I have more to say, but don't worry about it. And read the room and read the room.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And. And I. And I'll sometimes say to people, put their shoes in the box. Like, no way, you're done.

[B]

Are you okay giving that feedback? Because I will tell you, one of the hardest things I think, as of being a manager is giving constructive feedback. You don't have problem with that? You can tell. I wouldn't. I would never have the guts to tell someone to just lean over and

[A]

whispering, yeah, put the shoes in the box.

[B]

I don't think I could do it.

[A]

I think it's. Why would you not tell them?

[B]

I would tell them maybe after.

[A]

But it's the difference between them getting the sale and not getting the sale in the moment because they're about to screw it up.

[B]

I love it. I. I love it. And I love that you have the courage to do it and you don't feel awkward about it.

[A]

Maybe, I don't know.

[B]

But you still do it. Oh, I like.

[A]

I think feedback should generally be given not in situation.

[B]

Right.

[A]

People. People can't hear feedback right in the middle.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know. Yes. While you're filming and be like, hey, next time. No, no, no, no. Just wait till the end. And then, you know. But this is one of those circumstances where you have to do it in the middle.

[B]

That's a micro social skill. So that ability, you shouldn't take it for granted because your ability to say, I care about this person so much that I'm actually going to give them this feedback in the middle of this pitch. That takes a tremendous amount of courage. And it also takes a tremendous amount of social grace.

[A]

Somebody did it for me.

[B]

Ah, there you go.

[A]

And so I would. I have had the courage if somebody didn't do it for me. Who knows?

[B]

Right.

[A]

But because somebody did it for me, I can't pay her back, but I can pay it forwards.

[B]

Yeah, that. But that is a social skill that we shouldn't ignore these microsocial skills because those are incredibly empowering for you and for them. Right. Like, you know, that was the right thing. You can think back and think, I'm so glad I did that. Even though it was awkward, I still did it.

[A]

This is such an awkward conversation, an uncomfortable conversation. I'll tell you why.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Right. This and this.

[B]

Are you mad at me?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I wouldn't tell you. Oh, now I'm screaming. With your head. I know, I know. No, that was cruel. Sorry. No, I'm not mad. Here's why this is an uncomfortable conversation. It just sort of struck me, and I know you deal with this all the time, which is no matter how much you say, I really want to give people value and I really want to serve and I really want to do this, at the end of the day, you cannot separate all of our inherent desire to be liked, included, seen, heard, understood, belong. You can't separate it. And so there is a selfishness or an insecurity that goes along even when we offer value, even when it's genuine, even when it's authentic, and even though that might not be the driving. It's in the recipe, it's in the mix. And so I guess the question isn't negating or ignoring the fact that there is. Even if it's just because it feels nice, right. To be included and socially safe. And socially safe. And it seems like it should be really, really simple to quote, unquote, just be yourself. No, but it's a. It is a very complex, messy, awkward, changing thing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And this is why I love your prescription, which is do it small and do it in safe places and learn what it feels like, and then you'll get good at it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the idea of practicing being authentic with your friends. Start with your friends.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because your friends love you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'll add one nuance. I don't know if you. I always, especially at work, I always recommend telling people what you're doing. So if you've taken a course or read a book or seen a talk and got some advice, tell everybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hey, guys, I took this course. I'm going to start using your names more often because I was told that using your name is more important than not using or it makes you feel seen and heard. So I'm going to practice it. Tell me if it goes too far. Tell me if it feels good. But. But you're going to see me acting differently than you're used to, because I'm going to try this new thing and people love that. They love it, but otherwise they're going to be totally weirded out that you're doing all these things and they don't know where it's coming from.

[B]

One step further. If you are learning body language or micro expressions, you definitely want to tell people because it goes like this, hey, I'm taking this course on learning how to read facial expressions. And so I'm going to be practicing that. Do you want to Take it with me. So you can read my facial expressions too. Because a funny thing happens when you begin to read the room. Right. Like we were literally talking about. Step one is intention. Step two is literally reading all the micro cues of discomfort, all the micro cues of anxiety. Let me tell you, if you start doing that without people knowing, they're gonna be like, what? You see me? Right? You want to warn them and you want them to come with you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. You want them to practice with you. I also think the advice of, like, just be yourself or be authentic,

[A]

it's annoying advice.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's true. It's just not. It's just not helpful.

[B]

I'm gonna take it one step further. If you tell someone to be themselves and they don't like themselves, it's cruel. And this was me for a long time. How can you be yourself if you don't like yourself? And so that advice makes me upset because I'm thinking you're telling someone to try to show up as something that they don't like. And so, yes, I think that there's a very fine line between being likable and being authentic. And the line is manipulation. Right. Like, it's easy to tip. I think if you are trying to find these moments where you feel actually good about yourself. Most of my students are very smart and very talented, but there's a part of themselves that doesn't like themselves, by the way.

[A]

That's everyone.

[B]

That's everyone To. To different measures. It's everyone. Right. So if I can say when is a moment in conversation at work or with your friends where you feel really good about yourself, that's what we're looking for, is like, you feel really good about yourself. And yes, that's a little bit selfish, but that also is going to trigger more confidence, it's going to trigger more flow. And so these micro social skills, these micro strengths are actually just a way for me to say there are parts of yourself that you can like. And that's what we should be highlighting.

[A]

What specific thing happened in your life that you made the conversion from not liking yourself to liking yourself?

[B]

Probably meeting my husband. I met my husband at age 20. So we've been together for 20 years. And I was peak awkward when he met me, and he just never left. In attachment theory, I'm like, avoidant, dismissive. And so I learned very young to just avoid and be independent. And when I was awkward mechanism. Yeah. And so when I was awkward or I did something wrong and he would give me all kinds of Feedback. My awkwardness comes out as over questioning. My awkwardness comes out as trying to overcompensate. And he would literally say to me like a version of too much. And he didn't leave, though. He would give me the feedback and then be like, well, gonna try again next time. Or I would leave a party and be like, I think everyone's angry at me. And he'd be like, I don't think they're angry, but I think she's angry at you. And here's why. He never left. And then he was like, let's do this forever. And I was like, really? And that really surprised me because he saw me through all my early business years, all my socially awkward years. You know, I met him in college. That wasn't a moment. I was really shocked when he just wanted to stay with me.

[A]

So you believed him?

[B]

I believed him because he didn't want to go.

[A]

So the minute you believe that people like you for you and that sometimes people are angry at you and that's okay too.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Then you liked yourself. Because if he didn't stick around, then you would reinforce the narrative to yourself that I'm clearly a bad person. Not because everyone else had left nothing to like. Because no one likes me.

[B]

And no one stays.

[A]

No one stays.

[B]

I was truly shocked when he proposed. I was, like, truly shocked. I was like, you. Why would you want to marry?

[A]

Did you believe him the first time he said, I love you?

[B]

No, I didn't.

[A]

How many times did he have to say, what did he have to do to prove it to you? That not proven to you?

[B]

That's the wrong moved. I did not believe him.

[A]

You could still think he's nuts and insane and crazy.

[B]

When he moved, I was like, you want to be near me, Right?

[A]

So was that. Was that.

[B]

That's when you believe? Started to believe. But it took me six years. Six years to be able to commit. Only because I was afraid.

[A]

So you're talking about something more beautiful than I think. The entire conversation we've had. Which is the act of service.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of helping people see the good in themselves. Starts with our desire to see the good in others.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And when we enter a meeting, when we go on a date, we look for all the bad things. We look for everything that's wrong. Why this person's not right for me, why can't be with them. And we'll go down the list, and it is simply a mindset to simply go. I'm going to find all the things I actually really like about this person. And I'm going to keep doing it. There's plenty of time for me to find out. The things I don't like won't work, so I'll get there, but I'm just going to do good. And that choice is the most generous thing you can do for someone. There's an irony in it, right? If I choose to only see the good in you, at some point, you'll believe me. It reinforces that we cannot live without each other. This entire conversation of how can I be likable and how can I build my social grit and how can I have a conversation? It's all very me, me, me, me, me, me, me, right? And rather to go through life and saying, you know what? How can I help somebody else feel not awkward? How can I help somebody else feel normal? In fact, I wouldn't even say feel not awkward because it reinforces the awkward. How can I help someone feel normal? What touched a nerve? When did you will up?

[B]

I think that it actually takes courage to search for good in people, because right now we're very focused on what's wrong with everyone.

[A]

But what touched a nerve with you?

[B]

I think that he all. My bad, my awkwardness, my difficulty. He was like, I still see good in you and we can figure it out. I took so long for me to believe that, and that was extremely kind. And I still feel that that's what kind of makes me emotional is like, I still feel like he has to sometimes put up with me, you know? And he still is like, I'm here, you know? And I'm like, how generous. Because his generosity allows me to be brave socially. It allows me to be brave in business. Like, I started my company three months after I met him.

[A]

Because you had the courage.

[B]

I had the courage because I had a base. And I was also thinking you felt not alone. I felt not alone. And that I wouldn't be alone even if the business failed.

[A]

And that's, by the way, that's where courage comes from, which is you only need one person in your life who's like, I got you. And even if it goes sideways, I'll be with you.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

You know?

[B]

And I. I did have a failed business.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, my first book. Completely failed, published book, thought it was going to change my life. Completely failed, Had a breakdown, Thought my life and career was over. But he was there. He was like, let's try something else.

[A]

Tell you an experiment I did. A friend of mine was going through it like life was not good. Her business wasn't doing well. Her marriage was on the rocks. Just like she wasn't enjoying being a mom. She couldn't get a break. And so she knows what I do, and so she's like, can you? And I was like, I would be honored. And so every Wednesday we got together for 90 minutes and I coached her and she'd feel amazing when she left. And about a day or two would go by and then I'd see her the following week and she felt like shit again. And this went on for months. She'd feel she'd get a spike after we spent time, and then it would diminish over the course of the week. And then, you know, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. And I realized this is, it's not working, you know?

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

So I looked into my own work and I know about like sort of Alcoholics Anonymous. And the twelfth step is to help another alcoholic. And service is the thing. Right. So I, I well intentioned and I didn't tell her what I was doing, but I, I had this theory. I'm like, I'm gonna get her to help me. So I said to her, hey, look, we're getting together every week. I'm helping you. I'm love doing it. I trust you. I love you. You know me really well. I'd love to get your input on my stresses too. Which was true. It wasn't performative. I said, why don't we do 45 minutes each every, every week? She agreed. And we started with me, it just happened to go 90 minutes. And then the next week we started with me, it just happened to go 90 minutes. And then the next week we started with me, and it just happened to go 90 minutes. And before I knew it, within weeks, not months, months, her marriage was back on track, her company was thriving, she was loving being a mom again, and it was working. And it's, that's when I learned the power of service. It's my favorite advice to follow. It's also my favorite advice to give, which is instead of trying to solve your problem, help somebody solve the problem you're struggling with. So if you're awkward, help somebody else overcome their awkwardness. If you're, you know, that's my career. You know, that's your career.

[B]

I feel awkward. The only antidote to my awkwardness is helping other people feel less awkward.

[A]

Oh, to help people feel normal.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

Right. I think that perfectly summarizes what authenticity means, what value means, what generosity means. All these things that can be manipulated, misunderstood, or misapplied. I think at the core is if you genuinely are trying to help somebody else. Like, you can't make friends help somebody else make a friend.

[B]

Right. You know, you're awkward going to a party. Help someone else feeling awkward.

[A]

Right. Go to the person standing in the corner.

[B]

That's it. That's. The next thing is like, you were talking about where to stay. We were talking about where to stand earlier. Go help someone who looks really awkward.

[A]

Yeah. The opportunity to take the spotlight off yourself, which means you're not stuck in your head and you're not worried about all of the tricks and the things you've learned. But. And you can bumble and fumble it because you know what? You're there with the generosity of your heart. And I think that is what you got, which is somebody else. You were just dumb luck that you happened to trip over and meet somebody who was so keen to help you be the person you want to be, because he's a person of service. And you ended up loving yourself, you know, finding confidence, building a business, writing another book. All of these things.

[B]

Yes. It.

[A]

And it is the most beautiful thing in the world. And the only thing you want to do when you meet somebody like that is give back.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so it is reciprocal. But it takes one of you to start.

[B]

I also think that this is the test of every relationship in your life. If you don't feel that you could be of service to them, if you don't feel you could authentically help them find their good and support them, the relationship is not going to work.

[A]

And to recognize that the metrics aren't the same. Right. Of what you give and what you receive don't have to be the same. It's not apples to apples. So, I mean, I'll give you an example. There's a couple friends of mine that I met a few years ago that I couldn't understand why they were friends with me. They're way more successful than me. They're way more successful than me. They're like. They're dynamic. They're way smarter than me. They're way more social me. They're way better connected than.

[B]

There's so many things wrong with this. No.

[A]

And I literally would hang out with them, I'd have a good time, and then I'd walk away going, I don't understand. My mistake was I was comparing my value on their playing field, but the value that I brought wasn't on their playing field, which is why I had value. The thing that they liked about me was the thing they couldn't get from all their other successful fancy friends.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because I didn't want anything from them. I brought something completely different to the table. I don't believe in strengths and weaknesses. And I think when people are like, what are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? It's a bad conversation to have because we all have attributes and characteristics and in some circumstances they'll show up as strengths and in some circumstances they'll show up as weaknesses.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

And the hack for life is know what your characteristics and attributes are.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Know in what circumstances they manifest as strengths and then put yourself in that situation as often as possible.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

So for example, let's go back to all of the stuff you've been teaching.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I know that I am terrible at holding court and I do not like crowds.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

But when you put me one on one, I'm a frickin machine. So guess what I try and do more often than not. One on one. Right. Why? Because I'm just gonna naturally be better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I can learn all the tricks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But they're always gonna be inauthentic. I'm always gonna be not as good as somebody who's naturally good in those circumstances. So why would I compete on that playing field? Why?

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

I'm gonna go compete where my natural abilities show up as strengths. Over here, not over there.

[B]

And remember, there's always room for growth.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

So yes, you show up where you're already strong, where you're already good. Part one, part two is maybe I could be good at that.

[A]

And I have to push my boundaries, otherwise I'm stuck in. I have to work from home because I'm right. But again, it's the attributes and the characteristics and then the opportunity is not. I know these three places. I'm only going to do these three places. My goal is, okay, I know these three right. Now where are all the others? Which means I have to put myself in situations that it doesn't go well two, three, four or five times because I can't trust it once. It's like, I've tried sushi once, I didn't like it. I'm like, no, no, no, you got to try it a few times.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. And so the opportunity for life is to find as many places as possible. Because the more places you can find where your characteristics and attributes show up as strengths means you're stronger in more places.

[B]

And who brings them out in you. By the way, things that I used to be good at, I'm no longer good. At.

[A]

That's true too.

[B]

Right? Age changes things. People in your life changes things. Like when I became a mom, all of a sudden I became very good at certain things and very bad at certain things. And so it also implies that our strengths and weaknesses are fixed. They are not.

[A]

Yeah. Which is why you have to keep putting yourself in situations and being good at being uncomfortable.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I could talk to you forever. This is so the opposite of uncomfortable. It's really wonderful. Thanks for being so open and even being willing to tell me something personal.

[B]

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[A]

I really appreciate it. If you liked this episode, please subscribe to A Bit of Optimism for more interesting guests and even more interesting conversations. New episodes drop every Tuesday. You can also watch A Bit of Optimism on Spotify. And remember, Spotify Premium users can enjoy the show ad free. A Bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsey Garbinius, Phoebe Bradford and Devin Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonsinek.com thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.