← A Bit of Optimism
A Bit of Optimism
Humble Leaders Lead Better Teams with Retired Navy SEAL Jocko Wilink
00:42:07
Most people believe the only way to lead is to become the best at something. But what if great leadership means admitting you’re not the best at anything?
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- [00:00]
A
There's no one that's a. That's an ubermensch in the SEAL teams. And so I think that knowing that there's always someone better than you, and you're constantly trying to do your best, and if you're not trying to do your best, you're gonna have problems. So I think that's.
- [00:14]
B
I love this.
- [00:15]
A
Pretty normal.
- [00:15]
B
I don't think it's pretty normal. If you've ever seen or heard Jocko Willink, you will know one thing about him. He is big and he is imposing. And if you know anything about me, I'm neither big nor imposing. Which is exactly why I invited him onto the podcast. It's because I like to learn from people who are nothing like me. Jocko is also a number one New York Times bestselling author. He served 20 years in the military as a Navy SEAL, where he was the commander of Task Unit Bruiser, the most decorated special operations unit in the Iraq war. And so we sat down together to talk about leadership, and here's what I learned. What's made him such an effective and successful leader is actually his remarkable humility. This is a bit of optimism. You've made a career sharing some of the lessons you've learned in the teams out to the outside world and helping people better lead. I'm curious what you've learned since you left the Navy that you wish the seals had that you've only learned in the outside world. I'm curious if anything tracks back.
- [01:29]
A
Yeah, I was literally completely institutionalized. You know, I enlisted in the Navy at 18 years old and went straight in. So when I got out, I had no concept of what the outside world was like. When people ask me that question, it really is the fact that when I got out and I started working with civilian companies, the fact that every facet of leadership inside the SEAL teams translated directly to a sales organization or a construction site or wherever. That was the biggest lesson that I learned was, oh, human beings are human beings, and leading human beings, regardless of the outcome that you're looking for, regardless of the mission that you're on, the human beings are going to be human beings. And that was the, I guess, the biggest epiphany for me. But I haven't experience anything where I. Where I've said, oh, wow, that's radically different from leading people in the SEAL teams. And I'll give you one quick example is when you're in the SEAL teams, people think, oh, well, if someone doesn't meet the standard or someone's not performing well, you just get rid of them. And when I was in the SEAL teams, I knew that that wasn't true. Guess what you have to do if someone's not performing? You've got to do paperwork on them, you've got to write them up, you've got to counsel them, you've got to set them before a board, and even then, they might get recycled. And so it's actually very difficult to fire people. Well, when I was in the Navy, I thought in the civilian sector, if someone's not doing what you tell them to do, oh, you just fire them. And as soon as I got out, I realized, oh, no, you've got to do paperwork. You've got to go to hr.
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B
And so it also depends on the company.
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A
It does, but for the most part. And it does. It depends, you know, if somebody makes a grievous error in the SEAL teams, of course you can get rid of that person immediately.
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B
Of course.
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A
And I've done that before, but for the most part, they're a lot more similar.
- [03:16]
B
Right.
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A
Than they are unsimilar. Again, if I had some, you know, huge lesson that, oh, well, in the civilian sector, you've got to treat people this way.
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B
Yeah.
- [03:25]
A
No. Or in the civilian sector, they make better progress when they do X. No.
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B
Yeah.
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A
It's. It's crazy how much it all truly lines up.
- [03:37]
B
I've learned a little bit hanging out with folks in uniform that I've been able to translate and bring to the civilian world as well. Your knowledge is obviously vastly deeper. You entered an entirely new culture where you had to learn business. How old were you when you left the Navy?
- [03:52]
A
Just turned 39.
- [03:53]
B
Okay, so hitting 40, right? Hitting, baby, middle age, you know, coming out at 40 years. Now I'm going to learn business. Right. There are people with 20 years head start, Right?
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so you're learning on the fly, and you're still learning. I'm curious who your worthy rivals are. Who are you looking at in the space that you're at? And you're like, they're so good, and I need to learn that. You know, I always love high performers and how they view the others in their arena to push them to be better, who the pacing force is for.
- [04:27]
A
You when you talk about, you know, looking at other people and seeing them either as competitives or worthy rivals. Right. Honestly, I don't. I don't. I don't know if I just.
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B
It doesn't. It doesn't even make sense.
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A
It doesn't. It's hard for me to relate to that.
- [04:42]
B
Well, then how do you know where you're falling short?
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A
Well, part of the reason is because I think when I see someone that's doing something really well.
- [04:48]
B
Yeah.
- [04:49]
A
I don't think, oh, how can I take their job? No, of course I think that's cool, what they're doing. Are there any gaps that I could fill? You know, it's a. It's a story that I was. I was on my last deployment, and this army group came in, and they had really good capabilities. And one of my platoon commanders said, you know, hey, these guys, they've got these capabilities. They might take our job. And I said, well, do you think they might be better than you? And he goes, well, they might be better at that job.
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B
They should have the job.
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A
And I said, let them have the job, and we'll find you something else to do.
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B
I guess I'm. I'm curious, like, how do you know where you need to do work on yourself? And maybe it's not worthy rival. You know, Take the question a completely different direction. How do you know what areas of your own work? Personality, leadership capability? Need a little tweak or a little. Yeah, maybe.
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A
No, that's. That's real easy to answer.
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B
Okay.
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A
Like, everywhere. You know, I mean, I. And I think that's another thing is I don't. When I wake up in the morning and look around the world, I'm not thinking, oh, I'm here. Oh, there's someone that's better than me at that. I think everyone's doing stuff that's better than me. I mean, look, I wish I was a better writer. I wish I was a better speaker. I wish I was better at social media. I wish I was better at, you know, like, everything that I look at. I wish I could do a better job.
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B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [06:10]
A
And, you know, everything from doing Jiu Jitsu, I trained Jiu Jitsu all the time.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I get beat all the time, and I want to get better at it. Running joke in my family is with my wife, you know, for the past 20 years. She said to me, what's your New Year's resolution this year? And I say, oh, I want to get better at Jiu Jitsu and surf more. And I've been saying that for 20 years, and it's still true. I want to get better at Jiu Jitsu. I don't want to surf more, but that's kind of the way I feel about everything. I don't feel. I don't feel like I'm really that good at Anything. I feel like I constantly have to try and get better. I think that the attitude of, hey, I'm not that good at anything, which is the way I grew up, has stayed with me. I'm not that good at anything. And so I got to wake up every day and. And work hard to be able to do what I do.
- [06:56]
B
There's a humility in the military that is looked well upon, which doesn't really do very well in business. I know a lot of guys who are freaking amazing, like, phenomenal warriors, phenomenal leaders, phenomenal human beings. And they enter the private sector. I've seen it happen so many times. And I make some introductions for them, and I call the folks. I'm like, so, what'd you think? Badass, right? Phenomenal, right? And they're like, I don't know. This seems like he's a little lost. I don't know. I'm like, lost. He's one of the most focused guys I know. And it's not because they're lost. It's because they're so, like, you know, it's not me, it's my team. And I can't really take credit for anything in the business world, like, what? And sort of that slight modulation that they have to amp up the ego a little bit just for the business world. And I think this is a really important thing that you're touching on, which is you don't think you're great at everything. You don't think you're great at anything. And it's that belief that actually makes you such a high performer. And I think when people lose sight of that, that they think they're great at something. That ego, you know, I mean, you come in, I mean, like I said, you're a force of nature. And I think what people miss is that how you actually view your day to day is actually more human. If they copy the picture of Jocko, it won't work. It's this that I find beautiful about you, which is, where does that come from? Like, was your dad hard on you, like, growing up? Or, like, were you, like, a skinny kid? Like, where did it come from? You said, it's been since I was a little kid, and it's never gone away.
- [08:25]
A
Nothing was ever easy for me. You know, I wasn't the best athlete. I wasn't the strongest, I wasn't the fastest, I wasn't the smartest. I got in the SEAL teams. I wasn't the strongest, I wasn't the fastest, I wasn't the smartest. What you have to do to overcome that is you've got to work hard. So you get humbled all the time. And, and by the way, if you're good at one thing in, in the seal teams, there's someone that's better at that thing than you. And by the way, no one cares if you're a really good swimmer. People like, oh, yeah, but you can't do many pull ups. Or if you're a good runner, they'll say, oh, yeah, but you're not good with a rucksack on. Or if you're good with a rucksack on, they'll say, yeah, but you're a bad shot. So there's no mercy. There's no mercy. There's no one. That's a, that's an uber mensch in the SEAL teams. And so I think that always knowing that there's always someone better than you and you're constantly trying to do your best, and if you're not trying to do your best, you're going to have problems. So I think that's.
- [09:13]
B
I love this.
- [09:14]
A
Pretty normal.
- [09:15]
B
I don't think it's pretty normal. I think, yes. Fact. There's always someone better than you at everything. In fact, yes. If that's what we mean by normal, then as a, as a data point. Yes. But as a perception point. So often the opposite happens in business, which is like, you're, you, you're great at that. You're the best at that. In fact, we're gonna make you the hero at that. And somebody, they sort of start straightening up their shirt and I've made the mistake myself. I've accidentally heroized folks who are really good at what they do and they start to inhale their own fumes. And like a year later, I'm like, what the hell have I created here? Right. I just was giving you a couple compliments. So you boost your confidence there and it goes out of check. And this idea of being okay knowing, not pretending deep knowing, there's always somebody better at everything I do. And so the only option I have is to keep at it.
- [10:08]
A
Yeah, yeah. And it really allows you to keep an open mind, too, because if you're in a leadership position and you go into a room and you're trying to come up with a plan for something, and if in your mind you deeply know in your own mind that you're the smartest person with the best perspective and your plan is going to be the best plan, it's going to be bad, your mind is closed. You're not to Listen to what anyone else says. You're going to impose your plan on them. They're going to execute the plan only because they have no other choice, because you're the boss, and it's not going to go as well as it should. And when they run into an obstacle, they're going to stutter step because they know that they're just doing what you told them to do. They don't have any ownership of it, so it's problematic. But if you truly think, well, when I go in this room with my 10 subordinate leaders, I know that they're going to have better ideas than me.
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B
I know.
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A
I deeply know that their ideas are gonna be better, or at least they'll.
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B
Have a point of view that I don't have, Whatever it is. Yeah.
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A
And then my mind is open, and when someone makes a point and I go, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Why don't we go in that direction?
- [11:04]
B
At the risk of belaboring the point, I think this is really, really important for junior leaders and senior leaders. Right. So for a junior leader, I think junior leaders feel like they have to prove that they're worthy of the title, worthy of the risk. You know, like, you pick the right person, you know, and like. And that shows up in a little bit of little too much. A little too much.
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A
I used to tell the young junior officers, you have nothing to prove, but you have everything to prove.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You have nothing to prove. So you don't. When you're in charge of a platoon, you don't need to prove to the platoon that you're in charge.
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B
Right.
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A
You don't need to say, well, hey, we're doing it my way, or, hey, this is my plan. You don't need to do that. In fact, it's offensive.
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B
Your credibility doesn't come from that.
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A
No.
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B
Right.
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A
What you have to prove to them is that you'll listen to them when a decision has to get made. You'll take all the pertinent points in and you'll make a good decision and you'll be able to back them up, and you'll. You care about the team. That's what you have to prove to them. But you don't have to prove that you're in charge. So that's the guy that you're talking about that walks into the room and is like, all right, I better prove to everyone that this is my idea.
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B
We'll prove to my. Or prove to those above me that they hired the right guy.
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A
Exactly.
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B
You know?
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A
Exactly.
- [12:06]
B
I love that. And I think as you. So I think for a junior leader, what you're, you're learning the fundamentals of leadership, which is you've got to take care of your team, rely on your team. I think as you become more senior, this attitude that you're talking about, it does something slightly different, which is now, and you said it, which is it teaches you open mindedness, even if you're good at caring and good at offering that top cover. Now, what you're learning, and it's, in other words, once you've learned it, once it's not learned, it's a practice, not a lesson.
- [12:31]
A
It's counterintuitive to have an open mind.
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B
And it's counterintuitive to say on a daily basis, I'm not the best. In fact, there's someone everywhere who's better than me.
- [12:43]
A
That's the way it is.
- [12:44]
B
Again, I think the humility is often missed when we teach people SEAL training because people high performing, it's larger than life. Even the movies help. I think people miss that there's a very human. And you know this even better than I do. I've cried with more people in uniform than I ever did with anybody in a suit. I've hugged more people in uniform than I ever did with anybody in a suit. There's a humanity and I guess because the stakes are life and death, but there's a deep, deep humanity and love and caring and those words, you know, the Marines call them the intangibles. This is the only way to put it, which is love. Like seals are high performing, not because they're gorillas. That's just a component to get through selection. The seals are high performing because they love each other even deeper than you can imagine. And I would see it happen when I, when I had the opportunity to visit Coronado and I'd see guys who, I don't even think they knew each other. They would hug like brothers. And I think that's often missed.
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A
Yeah, there's a lot of things that get missed and there's a lot of stereotypical, you know, viewpoints that people have. And this is one of the, you.
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B
Talked about the movies.
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A
Some of the things that I learned when, when I got out. Well, one of the things that I learned that I got when I got out was that just like I had this impression of the civilian sector that, you know, oh, if you got someone that's not doing what they're supposed to be doing, you can just fire them. Well, they all had the impression that in the military when the commander Gives the order, everyone just gets in line and follows the order exactly. And that couldn't be further from the truth. And so you get this idea that there's this tyrannical authoritarian leadership is the best form of leadership, or that's the form of leadership that they use in the military. And that's terrible. Now, doesn't exist in the military. Yes, it does exist in the military. Does it exist in the civilian sector? Oh, it definitely exists in the civilian sector. Now there's a great book that I covered on my podcast. It's called the Psychology of Military Incompetence. Oh, yeah, yeah, it's a fantastic book.
- [14:42]
B
Wonderful.
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A
You know, the guy that wrote it was a. In World War II, he was wounded and then he became a psychologist. But you know, he points out that the military attracts people who see that authoritarianism from the outside and they think, oh, that's exactly what I want to be a part of. And that mentality works. I hate to say it, but actually works well in garrison environments, meaning where there's no combat going on. If we're on the parade field, if you got your platoon and I'm going to come and inspect your rooms and you're an authoritarian dictator, guess what? The rooms look great.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And everyone's in a perfect uniform and everyone's cleanly shaved. And I think you're doing a great job because you're a tyrannical leader and you barked orders and you yelled and screamed and you went and did the white glove on them before I, I showed up to inspect. So I think, man, Simon's such a great leader. That mindset, though, that closed mindset, which is, I don't give me any input. Clean the way I told you to clean. It works in a non combat environment. But when you get in a combat environment now, all of a sudden you've got variables. And this is why combat leaders, good combat leaders, hopefully they have very open minds. Yeah, they have to, they have to have an open mind. They have to be very creative. They have, they have to actually be the other end of the spectrum from the authoritarian dictator. And so what happens is in peacetime, things start to lean towards these authoritarian dictators being put in senior positions. They get promoted because why? What happens to the creative, open minded leader? Well, he was out with the boys. He got in trouble for this. They were on an exercise and he did this radical thing that was outside the rule set and he got in trouble and he got written up. So now he's not getting promoted. Yeah, it's. It's the guy you want in combat.
- [16:23]
B
David Schwimmer's character in Band of brothers.
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A
It's 100%.
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B
He was great in Garrison.
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A
He's great in Garrison.
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B
Put him in. In. In the chaos and just fell apart.
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A
And he fell apart. And, you know, what did his team think of him? Yeah, they didn't respect him. They didn't like him. They didn't want to follow him.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And you know, what happened to that guy in real life?
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B
It was. I looked him up. It wasn't good. He lived a lonely life, didn't he?
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A
He attempted suicide. He failed.
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B
Yeah.
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A
He was blind. And what was really interesting about that is that he. To his death.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Blamed his whole life on Easy Company.
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B
Yeah.
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A
All the failings in his life was because of Easy Company. And it just made me think. You romanticize your experience in the military and the things that were good, you just hold on to him. That was the. The best of times. But when someone has a bad experience or something bad happens, they hang on to that, and that becomes what that guy carried to the grave with. So. Yeah, but that's a great example. And then on the other side, you had Dick Winters, who was the heroic leader in Band of Brothers, who listened to his troops, who never yelled and screamed. You asked about my experience and how I ended up like this, where that humility came from. But I. I was in a SEAL platoon, and we had a tyrannical leader. And the tyrannical leader, he didn't have a lot of experience. He'd come from a different part of the Navy and then joined the SEAL teams at a relatively senior grade. And in order to make up for his inexperience, he kind of over indexed and, you know, imposed plans on people and didn't listen to anyone. It was my way or the highway, and it was just terrible. And we had a mutiny against this guy. And so we. All the enlisted guys in the platoon went before the commanding officer. We went before his boss, and we told the commanding officer, hey, this guy doesn't listen to us. He's arrogant. He's got a big ego. He's imposing his plans on us. We don't want to work for him, which is a mutiny. And just so you know, the. The punishment for mutiny in the military is death, actually. Well, you know, this was peace time. And. And the commanding officer was a really a great guy. And he said, listen, this sounds like a mutiny. We don't have mutinies in the Navy. I'm not gonna have a mutiny at my SEAL team. Go figure it out. And luckily, he was a good commanding officer. And so he kind of pulled the thread and started asking more questions of the training cadre to find out what the guy was like. And he fired him three days later. And so we were celebrating, you know, oh, great. You know, look what we did. We won, right? And then we found out who was going to take his place. The new platoon commander was this legendary SEAL who everybody knew. He'd come up through the ranks, from the junior position almost to the top of the enlisted ranks, and then became an officer and then started going up the ranks. The officer, he had combat experience. He was at every different SEAL team. He. He just was a legendary seal. I didn't know him, but we all knew his name. I wrote about him in this book, Leadership Strategy and Tactics, and I. I called him dc. So I'll call him dc. So dc, we find out that this legendary guy is going to take over. And one day we're supposed to meet him. He's coming after lunch, and we've got our little platoon hut out there. And we're sitting in the platoon hut, and I'm kind of the guy on watch looking for this guy to show up. And there's guys coming out of the locker rooms. Oh, that's not him. Another guy comes out. It's not him. And then finally this guy comes out, and I go, maybe this is him. He starts walking towards our platoon hut, and as he starts getting closer, I look at him, I go, this can't be the guy. Because this guy's looks like he's about £150. Can't be him. But he keeps coming towards us. And then I'm like, oh, wait, this guy's, like, short. Like, how old? How is this guy? Five'eight what is this guy doing? He can't be a legendary seal. Keeps coming towards us. And as he gets closer, I see he's got, like, he's old. You know, he's an old guy. He had to have been at least, like, 37, right? So I'm thinking there's no way that this old, skinny, short guy is this legendary seal. And sure enough, he walks in our platoon space, and it was him. And we very quickly figured out why this guy was a legendary seal. Because he walked in, he said, hey, sorry to hear about what happened with your last commander. I'm not worried about it. I'm just looking forward to working with you guys right then. Not, I'm the new commander. Not, this is my platoon. Not, there's a new Sheriff in town. It was, I'm looking forward to working with you guys. And that set the tone. Guy was the most humble leader.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And so I got to see this as a young guy. I was probably 22 or something. It was my second platoon. What made it very clear to me was because I got to see this stark contrast between a guy that was arrogant and egotistical and how much we disliked him, and that we literally had a mutiny because we didn't want to follow him. And when this other guy took over that was humble, that listened to us, that treated us with respect, we would follow that guy anywhere. And that's the guy that I've tried to emulate throughout my career.
- [21:20]
B
Follow up question. How did you learn when to turn on command control in the chaos? Because I think a lot of people are listening to this. They're hearing the lessons about humility, asking questions. But there are times when that guy, he had earned the trust so that when he could flip the switch in the chaos, and it was barking orders, and there wasn't. I'd like to hear your opinions. When did you see that happen? Like, because we've sort of been dancing around it, which is people choose to be either this lovely, beautiful, kind, humble leader. They choose that path, or they choose the path of command and control. But the answer is, you do need both. You can't be command and control all the time. But there are episodes where this guy, this legendary seal, did turn it on. When did he turn it on and when did he turn it off?
- [22:09]
A
Yeah. So when people would ask me that very question. Right. How do you know when to do that? And here's the way that I did it. This is what I saw him do. First of all, what you're talking about is there's a leadership vacuum. There's a moment in time, whether it's in a meeting, whether it's on the battlefield, whether it's making a decision where there's a leadership vacuum, no one is stepping up and. And taking charge.
- [22:32]
B
Obviously quiet.
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A
And it's obviously quiet.
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B
Yeah.
- [22:35]
A
Now, when that happens, here's what I do. If there's a leadership vacuum, no one's making a decision. I'm going to pause. I actually want everyone in the room to know and feel that there's a leadership vacuum. I want everyone in the room to go, because if I jump in too early, there's a couple people. Maybe you were about to. You know, Simon had an idea. He was about to say something, and I just cut him off. And now he's going to be begrudgingly executing what I told him to do, and he's going to think he didn't get a chance to step up. So I'm going to pause long enough, and in combat, it might be three seconds. In a business meeting, it might be 30 seconds, it might be a minute. If it's a long email exchange, it might be three days, right? I'm. I'm on the CC line and people are going back and forth, and all of a sudden, you know, I'm going to chime in. So when that leadership vacuum occurs, I'm going to give it at least enough time that everybody feels it. And once they feel it, I'm going to make a small, iterative decision to move in a direction that I think is best at that moment in time, and then we're going to move in that direction. I'm going to keep an open mind and we're going to get feedback on the decision that I make just made. I'm going to make the smallest decision I can. By the way, again, this is something that I use to cheat in the SEAL teams because I was known in the SEAL teams for being very decisive. If a decision needed to get made, I would make a decision, but I would make a little tiny decision. But no one's really thinking about that at the time. But if we, if you and I are getting shot at or my. Our platoon is getting shot at from, you know, somewhere up to the north, well, what's my decision going to be? Is it going to be attack? That's one decision. Is it going to be retreat? That's another decision. Those are big decisions to make. But what if I just say, simon, go to the rooftop. Tell me what you see up to the north. Okay, I just made that decision. And everyone goes, oh, Jocko's got this. We're good. Now you go up and you tell me what you see. And maybe you see a lot of enemy, maybe you don't see very many enemy. Maybe we can move forward, but I'm gonna make the smallest decision that I can. And by the way, if someone else makes the next decision, I'm fine with it. I don't ever feel like I need to talk. And in fact, when I do have to step in and make a decision, I normally will decipher that later and try and figure out, okay, what did I do wrong? Where Simon didn't make a call.
- [24:53]
B
I like this idea of making the little decision. I mean, it does multiple things, right? It establishes that somebody's going to take accountability it also builds trust because you're not taking unnecessary risk too soon, even if it's the right choice. It doesn't make people skittish. It's a very clever thing. And as we're talking about, I'm thinking about, there's also, as we practice good leadership, you're simultaneously learning good followership. Because I assume that in chaos of combat, that when the leader starts actually barking orders, that the good followers, those in the care of that leader, they also know when is the right time to say, I'd like to contribute. I think I have an idea. And they know, you know what? I'm gonna follow. I'm gonna follow.
- [25:35]
A
Yep.
- [25:36]
B
It goes hand in hand, knowing when to ask, but also knowing when to not volunteer.
- [25:40]
A
It does boil down to trust as well. But this is something that's built up over time. Because if we're. If you and I are in the street, we're in a gunfight, and I look at you and I'm the guy in charge, and I look at you and say, simon, get in that building right there, get to the roof and put down cover fire. That's not the time where you're going to say, well, actually, you know, I. I've. If you could explain to me the why behind that, I'd really like to know now, because you're going to go, oh, we're in a gunfight. Jocko's got a plan, and I'm gonna go execute it. And you're gonna go execute it most of the time. Because there's a chance that when I say peek at you from behind this wall I'm hiding behind with shots firing over my head, I say, simon, go get in that building there, take the roof, put down cover fire. There's a chance that you look back at me.
- [26:27]
B
Yeah.
- [26:28]
A
And you say, negative. Now why are you saying that to me?
- [26:32]
B
You might have information.
- [26:34]
A
You see something that I don't see. Maybe there's a ieds in the driveway. There's a reason why you can't do that.
- [26:41]
B
And when they say negative, you don't say, damn it, you listen to me. They say when you hear negative, they know something I don't know.
- [26:46]
A
Yeah.
- [26:47]
B
Quick exchange and then either adapt or not.
- [26:50]
A
And really what it boils down to then is now we're going to go a little bit deeper and I'm going to tell you why.
- [26:54]
B
Yeah.
- [26:54]
A
I'm going to give you the why and I'm going to let you go. Execute.
- [26:56]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [26:57]
A
I'm going to say, well, I need cover fire. Help me and you go, okay, got it. I'm going to that building, and I'm going to be able to put down cover fire. You. So that trust that you build up and knowing when to step in and make a call, again, you want to do it as seldom as possible, because the more you talk, the less people listen. You know, that's another thing. Like, we. I would not talk on my radio. In fact, when I was a platoon commander, when I was a troop commander, our radios worked almost always silent. And when I did say something on the radio, when I came up on the radio and said, everyone get to Building 34 now. Like, people knew that they were going to get there no matter what. And that's because I wasn't saying, hey, can you push two guys over to this building here? Hey, somebody give me some reports on where that hallway is getting. No, no, no one did that. No one did that. And it was like radio silence all the time.
- [27:52]
B
You know, what a leader is doing is fostering relationships, fostering trust. All the words that we use in good leadership, you know, you find in families and personal relationships, it's very human. And what we're talking about is, like, when we get along, that doesn't mean we have to like each other. It's preferable, but not. Not 100% necessary. And this is one of the things I find wonderful about military, which is the trust is so deep that, you know, I'll risk my life for somebody I don't necessarily even like, which I find fascinating. But when the team dynamics work and you get the relationships working, then it works. And I think a lot of leaders, they're so focused on the goal, they're so focused on the quarterly result, they're focused on even the strategy, that they sometimes forget that there's a whole group of people that have to come along to execute it, be engaged, enjoy it. And unlike the military, they go home at the end of the day, or they have got a side hustle, they have options. They can quit, and they're not forced to do anything. In the military. There's still. There's still a military structure. And. And, you know, they can disengage, of.
- [28:55]
A
Course, and they can literally just say, we're not doing this.
- [28:59]
B
Yeah.
- [28:59]
A
You know, there's seals in Vietnam that would get told. This is a classic story that I would hear as a young SEAL, you know, when I came in, there's still SEALs, Vietnam, seals in. And if they got some told to do something they didn't want to do, this is a Classic story. Oh, they get told, hey, go do an ambush on this. On this river that's, you know, over here tonight. And the guys would say, hey, there's a lot of enemy activity. We don't think it's going to be a good. And shut up and do it. They go, okay, cool. They'd get their gear on. They'd patrol 100 meters outside the gate. They sit down, hang out for five hours, walk back when the sun came up, and say, yeah, we didn't run into anything. They complied, but they didn't actually execute. So even though in the military, there's the. The thought that they're just going to do what you tell them to do, but they're actually not. They're not going to do that. Another great. You know, you brought up.
- [29:45]
B
It's quiet quitting.
- [29:46]
A
You brought up Band of Brothers. That's another great scene that I bring up quite often is there's the. The scene in the end of Band of Brothers where he gets told, hey, go do a reconnaissance across the river.
- [29:55]
B
Yeah.
- [29:56]
A
And Dick Winter says, hey, I don't really think we should do that. Hey, shut up and go do it. He says, okay, they go do it. They take a casualty. I think a guy even gets killed. They come back, hey, we didn't see anything. And by the way, the war is all but over at this point.
- [30:07]
B
Yeah, it's a stupid.
- [30:08]
A
And the colonel next night says, go do it again. And he says, I don't think we should do this. He says, go do it again. And he says, okay, roger that. And they go into a basement, they drink wine, they play cards, and they don't do the mission. So that happens in the military. That. That absolutely happens in the military. And so that's why, again, it's not so clear. And people don't think that it works that way, but it works that way. If the team, still human beings, if the team isn't on board with the. What we're doing, then we have a problem. And, you know, you're talking about relationships. And for years, I was telling people here, you know, you asked, what. What have I discovered in the past few years? For years I was telling people, hey, you got to have relationships. You got to build relationships. You got to have relationships. Got to build relationships. And I was working with a company, and I was looking at this woman. I said, hey, you got to build a relationship. And I could see the look on her face was a combination of like, yeah, I know, dummy, but what does that even mean? You know, that was the look on.
- [31:01]
B
Her face, not actionable.
- [31:03]
A
Yeah, she, it was like a friend. Yes. Go make a friend.
- [31:05]
B
Thank you.
- [31:06]
A
And so I ended up thinking to myself, you know, I keep telling people to have relationships, build relationships. What's a relationship?
- [31:14]
B
Yeah.
- [31:15]
A
And I ended up figuring out in my mind what the components of a relationship are. Trust, listen, respect, influence and care. Trust, listen, respect, influence and care. So if you want people to listen to you, you have to listen to them. And it goes right on down the line. If you want people to trust you, you've got to give them trust. If you want people to respect you, you've got to treat them with respect. If you want to have influence over people, you've got to actually allow them to influence you. And if you want people to care about you, then you need to care about them. And that's the way it works. And the biggest obstacle to all those things is my ego. Because why should I listen to Simon? I've been here for longer than him. Why should I respect him? I outrank him. He should show me respect. Why should I be influenced by him? I know this way better than he does. And those that my ego comes in, and now I end up with a bad relationship with people. So if we can get our ego under control and we can be humble, then we can build good relationships with people.
- [32:11]
B
So good.
- [32:12]
A
And then just going back to your original point, there is, you know, when people talk about, oh, we got to make this, we got to make this number or whatever, what team wins? Yeah, the team with 10 people on it where they hate each other and don't get along or the team that everyone's friends and they get along and they get after it. Who's going to win? No one gets that question wrong. The team that gets along, the team that has good relationships wins all day long. And by the way, going back, what makes the SEAL teams good? It's not because we can do pull ups. It's not because we can shoot straight. Like, yeah, those things come in. But the reason we're good is because we care about each other, because we have good relationships. And by the way, not all SEAL platoons are good. There are SEAL platoons that are disasters, they're SEAL platoons that get disbanded where they take an entire group of these, you know, high performing, top tier guys and they disband them.
- [33:00]
B
Yeah.
- [33:01]
A
Why? It's not because the people on the team aren't in good physical condition. It's not because the people on the team don't know how to shoot their weapons. It's not because they don't understand tactics. The reason that they get disbanded is because they have bad relationships. Yeah, It's a disaster. And you see that in any organization.
- [33:19]
B
Yeah. So good. I love that construction. I think that is bang on. Do you miss the brotherhood? Have you been able to find it back out in the. In the civilian world?
- [33:29]
A
Well, I mean, I have a company called Echelon Front, and we work with a bunch of our guys. Literally, it's the guys. Now we have other people as well. You know, we brought in a bunch of other people, but those people understand, too. And we're all in the same mindset of trying to share these lessons with as many people as you can. But listen, I'm not going to lie to you. Do I miss being in a SEAL platoon? 100%. There's nothing better. It's the best job in the world. There's nothing better. I will miss that forever. I knew it at the time. I'm lucky enough that, you know, when I was in charge of a. Of a SEAL task unit, when I was a platoon commander, I was older because I had been enlisted, so I knew that this was as good as it's going to get. And I relished every single day as much as I possibly could. And it broke my heart every day that got ticked off the calendar that it was that much further away from. From being my life. But it's the best job in the world, and I miss it every single day.
- [34:23]
B
That's the one thing every vet I've ever met, whether they loved the military or hated the military, they all miss the brotherhood and the sisterhood, and they've never found it in the outside world.
- [34:31]
A
I was in a call with the army unit that I worked for in Ramadi as my last deployment. The ready first Brigade, the first Armored Division. And we're having a big reunion in Texas, and we were on a call the other day. So it's basically like the. The battalion commanders and the brigade commander and all these. These guys are now retired generals and colonels. I noticed it three minutes into the call. These were the guys that we would have brigade meetings. Right.
- [34:57]
B
How big is a brigade?
- [34:58]
A
Brigades. There was 5,600 people. But these, these brigade meetings that we had, which we. We had probably twice a week, you know, where people are going through who was wounded, who was killed, what problems we were having. I mean, they were the most. The heaviest gravity in these meetings. And for a moment, you know, I thought about all those meetings where we'd be talking about when the memorial service was for a soldier or a marine that was killed. It was heartbreaking. And then the determination to make a difference in that city. And then you fast forward, it's coming up on 20 years. It'll be the 20 year reunion. And here was this group of, of men that I was in this zoom call with. And instantly I just felt this camaraderie that was, was just awesome. It was awesome to be sitting on a zoom call with these guys who, who I'd sat in a room with and been on the battlefield with, you know, Colonel McFarland. Just each one of these guys, I'd been out there on the battlefield with them while we're doing things. And yes, I do, I miss that. I miss it every single day. It was a terrible time. There was heartbreaking sacrifices that were made and yet I miss it.
- [36:15]
B
Is there a mission that you did in the teams or something that you've done outside the teams that you wish all the things you do from this point on will be more like that. And it doesn't have to have been successful commercially or militarily, but when you look back at it, you're like this. That one is the one that stands out. I, I want that feeling.
- [36:33]
A
There was a moment in time. I was in task UN commander. This is 2006. We did a six month deployment. We're probably five months into deployment. And you know, we had taken casualties, we lost guys. It was a very difficult deployment. And towards the end of that deployment, I forget even what the mission was. We were patrolling through the street and we were leaving somewhere. I was out there as a ground force commander, so I'm the senior guy in charge, but it's not. Nothing big is happening. And I remember, you know, running back and I'm holding a corner. And as I'm holding a corner, I'm. I'm kind of watching the guys and they were so good and so squared away and it just looked like, it just looked beautiful. And just to see this group of guys that were so honed and so good and it's so focused. And I remember watching just thinking to myself, this is it. This is the high point of my life right here being a part of this crew.
- [37:34]
B
But you've had good teams, you've had good missions, you've sat back and watched the thing work. As you're describing, what was it about this patrol that stands out from all the other patrols where it worked as well?
- [37:47]
A
It was a combination of the fact that, because in that particular moment everything was going fine, so I didn't really. I wasn't looking for that leadership vacuum. I was very. I was detached. I was able to just be. Be almost an observer, you know, whatever the. The actual tactical terrain was, set me up in a spot where I could see and I could watch and I could say dang, you know, for. I wasn't worried about anything, and I just was watching, going, yeah, this is as good as it gets.
- [38:13]
B
That's great. Give me an early specific happy childhood memory. Specific. That I can relive with you.
- [38:19]
A
I got one for you. I was playing soccer.
- [38:22]
B
This is specific.
- [38:23]
A
This is specific. I was playing soccer, and my dad was coaching the game. Somebody kicked a ball and he hit me in the face, and my nose started bleeding, and so there's blood going everywhere. And my dad just left me in the game, like, no factor. Keep playing. I just remember thinking, all right, that's how we roll.
- [38:43]
B
And what was it about that. That of all the memories you had in your normal childhood, what was it about that memory that makes you smile and want to tell me now?
- [38:52]
A
I think it was a little foreshadowing of just, you know, hey, I'm gonna keep going. Yeah, that's what we're gonna do. We're gonna keep going regardless of what happens.
- [39:02]
B
So you do realize those two stories you told me are exactly the same story, right? Except in the. In the combat story, you were your dad, which is you just trusted if they were aching or if they weren't, whatever was going on down, they're going to keep going. That they. That they had the wherewithal to just keep going for the team. Your dad sat on the sideline and just said, all right, whatever. Look at this beautiful teamwork. Keep going, keep going. And for that brief second in that mission, you were your dad.
- [39:33]
A
Interesting. Yeah.
- [39:35]
B
You had built your team. In this case, your dad had built up you and the rest of the team because it was also the team, not just you, that he didn't need to pull you out. He could just sit back and trust that the work that he had done was working. It's the exact same story.
- [39:51]
A
Interesting.
- [39:52]
B
I think what it captures is the joy of leadership, the joy of parenting, the joy of all of these things, that a good leader works tirelessly on the individuals and the relationships and making it all work. But at some point, you know, it works not because the numbers show that it works, because the numbers can lie. But you get that weird sit back moment and just smile to yourself. You know, those moments of all the sacrifices, all the stress was worth it. And that's why we do it, for those unexpected glimmers. You don't know when they're gonna. You had no idea that in the middle of a frickin war zone that that would be the moment that you'd find out. Your dad had no idea that it was when his kid got hit in the face with a ball that that was the moment he'd be like, it's all working. You know, people work so hard for the dopamine hit to know that they found something or achieved something. And good leaders work for the serotonin and the oxytocin hit. That's what that is, that's pride. And much harder to get than a dopamine hit. A lot more work than a dopamine hit. Dopamine hits are fricking easy. Yeah, you know, write a goal, you.
- [40:59]
A
Got one in your pocket, figure out.
- [41:00]
B
A plan, you know, there you go, dopamine. And we've built all these incentive structures around dopamine hits, which is the problem, but the reality is we need more incentive structures around serotonin hits, which are really hard and requires so much damn work. But when you get it, ain't no better feeling.
- [41:18]
A
Yeah, there's no doubt about that.
- [41:19]
B
And that's what I love about these things. Jocko, it's such a pleasure to meet you finally.
- [41:24]
A
Yeah, great to meet you as well.
- [41:26]
B
Too long in the making. Indeed, too long in the making. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, SimonSinek.com for classes, videos and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by Lindsay Garbinius, David Jha and Devin Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Rudershan.