Revisited: The Beautiful Brilliance of Boredom with Creative Polymath Elle Cordova

Summary

Podcast Summary: A Bit of Optimism

Episode: Revisited: The Beautiful Brilliance of Boredom with Creative Polymath Elle Cordova

Host: Simon Sinek
Guest: Elle Cordova
Date: December 30, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this lively and candid revisiting, Simon Sinek sits down with Elle Cordova (formerly Reina del Cid): poet, singer-songwriter, science fiction lover, and Internet polymath. Together, they explore the underestimated value of boredom, the creative power of space and “doing nothing,” the quirks and strengths of introversion, and the humor and curiosity that shape creative pursuits. Their conversation ranges from nerdy deep-dives (Star Wars archetypes, blackjack card counting, Roswell lore) to sincere discussions about mental health and the unpredictable, accidental route to viral artistic success. The show closes with Elle performing her educational, witty, and accurate song "Roswell."

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Main Themes and Purpose

• Boredom as a Creative Tool: Challenging the negative stigma around boredom, the hosts argue for its rebranding as the source of creative breakthroughs and self-discovery.
• Curiosity & Polymathy: Tracing Elle’s journey as a lifelong learner who uses curiosity to fuel a diverse, rewarding career.
• Introversion and Escapism: Honest talk about how shyness, anxiety, and introversion can actually become assets for deep thinking and artistry.
• The Accidents of Success: A look at how unexpected circumstances (lockdown, stuck in Roswell, internet trends) function as catalysts for new forms of creativity and public connection.
• The Human Element in Art: As AI becomes more prevalent, Simon and Elle reflect on what will remain uniquely valuable—and relatable—about human-made works and the essential role of storytelling.
• Mental Health: Elle shares her struggles with anxiety and panic disorder, emphasizing the importance of conversation, vulnerability, and humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Accidentally Banned from Casinos: The Science of Card Counting

00:00–08:30

• Elle shares the story behind being banned from six Vegas casinos, simply wanting to “sit with her mom longer and have more drinks” at the blackjack table.
• She explains the difference between "gamblers" and "advantage players," demystifying card counting as basic arithmetic and strategy rather than complex cheating.
• Quote (Elle):
  “If you can add and subtract by one, you can count cards. It’s literally that simple.” (12:16)

2. The Roots of Curiosity and the Making of a Polymath

03:13–08:05

• Simon admires Elle’s depth and breadth, describing her as "the personification of a polymath."
• Elle credits her curiosity to her father’s rule-breaking curiosity—and her own introverted, book-loving upbringing in Fargo.
• They discuss how restrictive, quiet environments and social shyness can push minds inward, sometimes resulting in unexpected genius or artistic output.
• Quote (Elle):
  “Curiosity is sort of my motivating force in life… I just hope people see that, get this little bit of resonant spark of curiosity in themselves.”

3. Creative Success by Accident: Isolation, Boredom, and Going Viral

17:23–24:58

• Elle’s accidental viral fame during the pandemic came from having all her music plans canceled—an enforced space that allowed her dormant creativity to bloom (poetry, social humor, nerdy sketches).
• Platforms like TikTok encouraged her to show new, playful sides of herself—and emboldened audiences to learn, laugh, and chime in with their own brilliant comments.
• Both agree that the “gap” or downtime is the incubator for real artistic ideas.
• Quote (Simon):
  “My writing process is days and weeks of guilt and self-loathing punctuated by hours of sheer brilliance.” (21:00)
• Quote (Elle):
  “Nothing I’ve ever posted will beat the top comment underneath the post—people are so funny and so smart.”

4. The Beauty and Necessity of Boredom (or "Good Nothing" Time)

25:20–40:23

• Space for Ideas: Elle and Simon stress that modern life leaves minimal empty space for minds to wander—everyone compulsively fills micro-moments with screens or tasks.
• Both have rituals to engineer boredom or “negative space”: device-free walks, scheduled unscheduled time, even “Roswell time.”
• Quote (Simon):
  “Boredom is the very space you were talking about. We need to create spaces where we can allow ourselves to…be freed of distraction by boredom.” (38:03)
• They riff on rebranding boredom ("good nothing") since doing nothing is constantly mislabeled as laziness, rather than the prelude to new ideas and solutions.

5. Human Creativity vs. AI: Why Human-Made Will Always Matter

32:41–36:27

• They debate whether AI will overtake humans in idea-generation and creativity. Simon is optimistic about the enduring value of “the asymmetrical idea”—novelty born of human error, drama, and imperfection.
• Elle, more cautiously, forecasts that humans will rely increasingly on machines to generate solutions, but there will always be a premium for authentic, human-generated art and ideas.
• Quote (Simon):
  “We don’t sit around for fun watching computers talk to each other, play chess against each other. We watch humans play chess.”
• Quote (Elle):
  “It’s the drama of the pressure and the mistake—is the part that we find entertaining.”
• They note that art contracts increasingly include clauses affirming work wasn't machine-generated: “We’re not buying the product, we’re buying the story.”

6. Mental Health, Anxiety, and Making Space for Vulnerability

41:24–44:45

• Elle shares openly about her history of panic disorder, agoraphobia, and the challenge of seeking help:
  • Started as a teenager practically unable to leave her apartment; now self-managed but still recurring, particularly when traveling.
• She discusses the double-edged sword of stigma and “over-diagnosis” of mental illness, and the vital need for honest, nuanced conversation.
• Quote (Elle):
  “I just think we could all just talk more about our mental health... If you don’t, it just gets worse. It festers and then we have negative outcomes.”

7. Nerd Corner: Star Wars Archetypes & Affinities

45:57–55:47

• Deep dive into Star Wars and Star Trek allegiances. Elle proclaims herself a rare near-equal lover but leans Trek—while Simon flies his Han Solo banner high.
• Both delight in using Star Wars to analyze personality: "Which character are you?" is actually deeply revealing.
• Quote (Simon):
  “You can learn everything about a person simply by them telling you which Star Wars character they are."
• Elle chooses R2D2 as her closest archetype—“underestimated, always prepared, humble, and gets the job done,” which Simon says matches her perfectly. Simon, himself, is Han Solo: fiercely independent, but always with a loyal friend.
• They nerd out over Palpatine's Machiavellian genius and the enduring allure of flawed, unpredictable, human drama.

8. The Birth of "Roswell": Creativity from Circumstance

56:08–59:08

• The origin story of Elle’s Roswell song: ten unexpected days trapped in the town due to a broken tour van, with nothing to do but research and write.
• Simon dubs these empty stretches “Roswell time”—another term for the creative power of boredom.
• Quote (Simon):
  “Roswell was your lockdown. It was your blank space. It was your good nothing.”

9. Memorable Closing: Performance of "Roswell"

59:19–end

• Elle and guitarist Tony Lindgren perform “Roswell,” blending factual history about the famous UFO incident with humor and wit—demonstrating everything the episode has celebrated: curiosity, learning, and the accidental beauty of "good nothing" time.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Elle (on card counting):
  “If you can add and subtract by one, you can count cards.” (12:16)

• Simon (on writing):
  “Days and weeks of guilt and self-loathing punctuated by hours of sheer brilliance.” (21:00)

• Simon (on boredom):
  “Boredom is the very space you were talking about. We need to create spaces where we can allow ourselves to…be freed of distraction by boredom.” (38:03)

• Elle (on R2D2 & self):
  “He always seems to know exactly what’s going on…He’s underestimated, he’s just getting the job done. And I relate to that.” (54:24)

• Simon (on creativity and space):
  “Our creativity comes from being bored, not from being active.” (37:38)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – 08:30: Casino stories, card counting, and introverted escape tactics
• 17:23 – 24:58: Going viral by accident, discovering new creative avenues in lockdown
• 25:20 – 40:23: The science and importance of boredom—"good nothing"
• 32:41 – 36:27: The future of creativity: humans vs. AI
• 41:24 – 44:45: Mental health, panic disorder, and the power of honesty
• 45:57 – 55:47: Nerd archetypes: Star Wars psychology, personal identification
• 56:08 – 59:08: How being stuck in Roswell led to a song
• 59:19 – end: Performance of “Roswell” (song)

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Tone and Language

The tone is warm, witty, deeply nerdy, and insightful—balancing thoughtful discourse and self-deprecating humor. Both speakers are open about their quirks, anxieties, and joys, creating an inviting and relatable atmosphere. The language remains conversational but richly descriptive and reflective, with generous asides, nerdy tangents, and heartfelt admissions.

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Takeaways

This episode is a celebration of the accidental, the underestimated, and the generative power of “good nothing." By embracing boredom, curiosity, and our own foibles, we unlock our most original, human ideas—sometimes viral, sometimes quietly meaningful.

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For the full benefit:

• Revisit your “good nothing” and defend your right to be bored.
• Next time you’re stuck, try thinking like Elle Cordova: get curious, get nerdy, and don’t be afraid to take a second bite of the apple.
• Wonder who you are in the Star Wars universe. It might tell you more than you think.

Transcript

[A]

I've been backed off and banned from probably close to, like, six, seven casinos now in Vegas. And unfortunately, they're all my mom's favorite casinos, so we can't go there anymore. She's told me to stop.

[B]

So I love this that all you wanted to do was be a good daughter, celebrate your mom's birthday, and now you're banned from half a dozen casinos in Las Vegas.

[A]

I know it's a funny turn of events, but, yeah, I blame my mom. She brought me there.

[B]

I mean, it's always childhood trauma.

[A]

Exactly. I just wanted to sit with her longer and have more drinks.

[B]

So two introverts walk into a bar. Let's be honest, that's not happening. But here's what did happen. Two introverts sat down for a conversation about creativity and the importance of boredom. Yes, boredom. It turns out boredom is underrated. It can actually be a remarkable source of calm and creativity, which a lot of introverts may already know. That was definitely the case for Elle Cordova. She's a singer, songwriter, a poet, and a certified nerd who, in the isolation of lockdown, discovered a creativity she didn't know she had the result. Well, I'm sure a lot of you have seen her sketch about fonts at a party or her poem about the big bang, both of which went viral, very viral. Before the big bang, there was no up, there was no down, there was no side to side.

[A]

There was no up, there was no down, there was no side to side. There was no light, there was no dark, nor shape of any kind. There were no stars or planet Mars or protons to collide. There was no up, there was no down, there was no side to side. And furthermore, to underscore this total lacking state, there was no here, there was no there because there was no space. And in this endless void, which can't be thought of as a place, there was no time, and so no passing minutes, hours, days.

[B]

I first learned about Elle when I stumbled on her song Roswell, which, if you stick around, she plays live for us at the end of the episode. And if you're a nerd, you'll appreciate our chat about Star wars archetypes and how we need to give boredom a rebrand, which turns out isn't boring at all. This is a bit of optimism. You are a perfect example of why it's important to meet your heroes.

[A]

I'm not sure if I. If I'm taking this the right way.

[B]

Because, you know, they always say, never meet your heroes because you're always disappointed I found you and your work from music. I found your song Roswell when you had a different name. What was your name?

[A]

Reina del Cid.

[B]

Right? Yeah, the stage name.

[A]

I had a stage name.

[B]

You had a stage name. Then I found out that's not your name. So I knew you as a musician, started following you on the Instagram. Then I find out that you're a poet and a smart person and a nerd, and you are the personification of a polymath. I reached out to you on the Instagram, slid into your DMs.

[A]

You did.

[B]

And said, hey. And you wrote back. And we got together and fan and nerd bonded, I guess.

[A]

Yeah, is what it was. Turns out you're this. You're cut from a similar nerd cloth.

[B]

You are even better than I thought you were when I saw you on the Internet.

[A]

Oh, thank you, Simon. And the same is true of you.

[B]

Oh, thanks. And we just. I think we can just cut right here. I think our work, Our work is done. Job well done. But, but, but going back to this idea of a polymath. A polymath is somebody who is. Has diverse interests, learned it across many things, and you have curiosities and talents in many places. You are, I think, have become famous for your poetry on social media. You've done a TED talk about your poetry. You are a musician. You are extremely well read. You know a lot about science. You are a lover of science fiction. You seem to know not a little bit about a lot of things, but a lot about a lot of things. Intimidatingly so, I might add. Were you always, like, where is that from? Like, what's your journey of. Of discovery and, and how you have so many curiosities, but also that you're good at those things. It's not just, you know, good at one thing and have a couple things on the side.

[A]

Yeah, well, I, I don't know how much is. What you just said is true.

[B]

All of it is true.

[A]

Okay, well, we'll. We'll go with your premise. I think for me, it's just, I've always been a very curious person. So curiosity. And you've. You've said the word a couple times when you were speaking just there. Curiosity is like sort of my motivating force in life. And what I'm trying to do with the content or art or whatever that I put out on the Internet or put out wherever for people to consume is to try to spark a little bit of the same curiosity. And I want people to consume, you know, whether it's music or poetry or just, you know, random inane thoughts that I post to the. To the Instagram, whatever it might be. I just hope people see that, get this little bit of like, resonant spark of curiosity in themselves and then are either motivated to create their own thing or to, like, look up the concept I'm talking about. And I wouldn't say I know a lot about a lot of things. I just think I've been very curious about a lot of things.

[B]

No more than a little.

[A]

Well, okay. And I've gotten to know enough about enough things that it just like, keeps lighting the fire. And I always find, like, new things to.

[B]

Where did the curiosity come from? Was it nature or nurture?

[A]

Well, my dad is a really curious person, so he. He was like a really, like one of those guys that's like, breaks teachers hearts where he. He was really smart and he would. He was curious, but he. You couldn't get him to finish an assignment or something, you know, but he would like, read on his own. He'd read the things you're not supposed to be reading about. He'd just go and check out a book about trigonometry when they're trying to teach them about, you know, algebra or something. So it's like if you taught him. If you tried to teach him something, he wouldn't learn it. But if you let him loose in a place of knowledge, he will be hungry and he'll do it. So I think I got a little bit of that from him, although I'm more of a rule follower. So I went and got the degree and everything. Less of a rebel.

[B]

Where'd you get your degree in?

[A]

I majored in English, so I got a degree in English literature from the University of Minnesota.

[B]

So that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. So English, I mean, to me that's just like a gateway to books, like all kinds of books and knowledge and stories from everywhere. So it's kind of like majoring in everything.

[B]

And. And how did you. Because you grew up in Fargo. Yeah, grew up in Fargo, North Dakota. Shout out to Fargo.

[A]

Shout out to Fargo.

[B]

Did. Growing up in Fargo. It's cold. There's a lot of snow. It's not big, right? Did that contribute? Is that the nurture part of the curiosity? Like, it's like Pullman, for example, he has polio. So when all the other kids go out to play, he can't go out to play. So what does he do? He stays home and plays the violin and he becomes one of the best violinists in the world.

[A]

Or Like Isaac Newton, you know, coming through his breakthroughs, like during a time of plague, because what else are you going to do? He's like trapped in a. Trapped in quarantine, you know.

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

Yeah. Sometimes I think restrictive environments can definitely lead to like an expansion of mind.

[B]

And was that the case for you?

[A]

I think so. I mean, I think probably more than the cold environment. Although that's definitely true of Fargo. And if you ever go there, you'll see it's like it's not. It's just this unrelenting bitter winds coming across the plains with nothing to stop them. And it's very, very cold. Less so now because of certain global changes that are happening. But yeah, I think that's part of it. But I think the. Probably the bigger part is just this. Just introversion. I have always been so cripplingly shy. And it's just easier for me to stay in on a Friday night with a book than to make myself go out and socialize. So I was, even before the age of social media, I was probably spending too much time, you know, alone and not with a phone, but with, you.

[B]

Know, books and paper, paper device and.

[A]

Like notebooks and stuff.

[B]

So basically the polymathitude of it all is a defense mechanism to not wanting to socialize.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so you accidentally be like. It's like prominent. It's like you accidentally become incredibly good at something when all you're trying to do is not do the other thing.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Escapism maybe.

[B]

Escapism, yeah, that's. And I mean, I remember when you and I first got together, we're both socially awkward for first time meetings. And second and third, you are not.

[A]

You, you say that. I've heard you say that elsewhere. You are so warm and welcoming and you're like actually an introvert's dream. When you first, you know, when I first met you, I was like, oh, this, this person puts me at ease.

[B]

Well, that's very kind of you say, but it is all, it is all practice. That makes sense because like, if I'm not working, because that's work, I'm not naturally like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if I'm not working, I will sit there awkwardly and sort of be like, be funny, be funny, say something, say something. You know, and so it's only through practice that I've learned to sort of ask questions and create an environment where. But, but by the way, it also produces insecurity, being the introvert. Because I don't, I don't want to hold court if I Create a space and you're sort of one word answers and sort of head nods. I'm like, have I done something wrong? Yeah, you know, it's like so it does. It's all of the introvert weirdness inside my brain is still happening.

[A]

Well, you hide it very well.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah. Makes it much easier to talk to you.

[B]

Well, thanks. Yeah.

[A]

Maybe. Maybe you should start a podcast.

[B]

Yeah, it would be good. Yeah. A podcast by Introverts for introverts.

[A]

I mean, that's basically what it would be.

[B]

We just sit here awkwardly and people driving on their commute, just listening to sort of two people fidgeting and without the inner thoughts. Wouldn't that be even better if you could have the like, if the concept of like a cartoon with a thought bubble. If there was a technology that you could hear the actual thought bubbles of people. Yeah, I would love that.

[A]

I would too. Although I'd be really anxious about what my thought bubbles are saying.

[B]

So you'd have to have a thought bubble of the thought bubble. Like the anxiety of what my inner thoughts might be. I hope it doesn't catch that one.

[A]

Then we've got an infinite thought bubble going all the way down.

[B]

Very meta. Yeah, very meta. It's like those. Like being in two mirrors. Yeah, but with thoughts. Anyway, there are people who are actually appreciating this conversation. Others have already changed the channel. Speaking of changing the channel, another thing I just learned about you, literally minutes ago, you are a gambler.

[A]

I wouldn't call myself a gambler. I would call myself an advantage player. There's a difference. A gambler is somebody who sits down at a, at a slot machine or a table game, just playing by the rules of the house and playing without an edge, you know, and then an advantage player has an edge.

[B]

But you are engaging in gambling.

[A]

Yeah, sure. I guess if you want somebody who.

[B]

Drinks is a drinker and somebody who gambles is a gambler.

[A]

Yeah. I think if you talk to like the world of the advantage players, like, they get really prickly about being advantage players. It's a world out there.

[B]

They're just trying to distinguish themselves from like the tourist at Vegas sitting at.

[A]

The slot machine or the degenerate or the degenerate gambler.

[B]

Okay, okay. So you're an advanced advantaged player and blackjack is your game.

[A]

Yeah. And this all started because I see, I was like, you know, phobic of casinos, I would say, like, you know, in the way where it's just like that's a, that's a place where you go to lose your money. Like, why would anyone spend time in casinos? But my mom is a big fan of Vegas. She's a gambler and she loves doing that. So she goes there every year for her birthday. When I was 16, she told me, When I turn 60, you're gonna come with me to Vegas. And then when she turned 60, I kept my word and I came with her. And I looked, I just googled like, what is the game that I can play while I'm in Vegas that's gonna lose me the least amount of money? Turned out to be blackjack. And that's because you can have, you can literally just memorize. They call it basic strategy. Memorize the right hand for every. The right play for every hand.

[B]

It's, it's, there's odds. Yeah, it's like, it's this, it's math. The statistics of whether you're likely to hit get an advantage or disadvantage based on pure odds. There's more 10 cards than any other card in the deck, etc. Etc.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So if you memorize that, yeah, there's.

[A]

A right play for everything.

[B]

Also known as counting cards.

[A]

Okay, well that's not counting cards. But, but memorizing is the first memorizing.

[B]

The shoe is the counting the cards part. Like how many?

[A]

You don't have to memorize the whole shoe. So this is so much easier than people think it is. By the way. This is not a, this is not a difficult thing. It's just a thing that you maybe have to spend a little bit of time to.

[B]

So you memorize the tables, memorize the.

[A]

Table of like the right play for every hand. Then if you're going to go to the length where you're memorizing the right play for every hand, then you might as well just go one extra step of just keeping track of when high cards are coming out versus low. So you just add, you assign a value of one to everything that's high and then a negative one for everything that's low. And then for like a medium sized card, it's just zero. So all you have to do, if you can add and subtract by one, you, you can count cards. It's. It's literally that simple.

[B]

So you don't actually have to memorize which cards have happened.

[A]

Definitely not.

[B]

Because they keep adding more cards to the shoe to make it difficult to remember which cards have happened because it.

[A]

Just, they have multi deck shoes. And so to get more accurate. So if you're going to do that, then if you're going to start doing the ones and. And everything, then you might as well make it even better for yourself and look and see the, like, discount tray. And then you can kind of divide by the number of decks that are left in the. In the. In the shoe, because they've. These days, they're using six, eight decks, you know. Yeah. So to really get an accurate count, you're waiting till the kind of the end and whatever. So it's just, like, I got into this because I was like, first, just not wanting to lose all my money, and then second, I want to be able to hang with my mom. So I'm going to be at this blackjack table anyway. I might as well just, like, tip the.

[B]

You're just trying to make it so you can sit with your mom for as long as possible without losing all your money. You're just trying to make a nice.

[A]

Night of it, just get some free drinks and, like, at least just come out even. But as it turns out, you can come out ahead, you know, And. And it's not cheating. It's just using the information that's available to every player, you know, so they can't arrest you. It's. There's nothing illegal about it.

[B]

It's not cheating. But the casinos don't like it. And I. I read somewhere, and you probably actually know the answer, which is the odds of winning in blackjack are. Are. It's like 50. Whatever. Like, whatever the number is. I'm making it up.

[A]

But, like, yeah, if you.

[B]

It's 50%. Let's just call it. And if you. If you count cards, it's like 50.1.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's very, very small percentage.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

But over the course of an entire evening, that point one adds up to an advantage versus the casino.

[A]

Exactly. And if you were betting a lot of money and you did this for long enough, yes, you're gonna take a lot of money from the casino. But I'm just betting pennies, you know, or not pennies, but, you know, Small dollars. Yeah, small dollars. So it's like, for the most part, they know you're counting cards. They actually have machines. They have cameras in the sky, like, watching your plays. They even have chips inside of chips, you know, so, like, little devices that track, you know, how is she betting? How is she changing her bets based on the count? And their computers are counting the cards. And so if your bets are changing based on the count, they know that immediately. They don't even have to watch anymore. They just know.

[B]

But they'll let you have Chips in the. In the chips, like, they have qr, not QR codes. They have. They're called rf. RF tags. RF chips.

[A]

Oh, yeah. So I didn't even know.

[B]

Yeah, so. So that's how you use a. It looks like a credit card piece of plastic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In there is an RF chip that opens up your hotel room. Yeah, that's the same chip.

[A]

It's probably a similar.

[B]

In the same thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't even know that they're doing that.

[A]

So the old days in the 70s, where they had the pit boss just coming, like, standing over your shoulder, counting to see if you're counting, that's gone. They don't even have to let on that they know what you're doing because the computers are doing it for them. So I've been backed off and banned from probably close to, like, six, seven casinos now in Vegas. And unfortunately, they're all my mom's favorite casino, so we can't go there anymore. She's told me to stop.

[B]

So you're now playing at Circus Circus because no one else will let you in, Right?

[A]

Well, those are bad. Do you only play where they have good. Good blackjack? But anyway, my mom. My mom is like, why can't we just go have fun? And I'm like, okay. That was the. That was the original intent anyway, so.

[B]

So I love this that all you wanted to do was be a good daughter, celebrate your mom's birthday, and now you're banned from half a dozen casinos in Las Vegas.

[A]

I know it's a funny turn of events, but, yeah, I blame my mom. She. She brought me there.

[B]

I mean, it's always childhood trauma. Yeah, it's always like, childhood trauma. That's exactly what it is. You're banned from casinos because of.

[A]

I just wanted to sit with her longer and have. Have more drinks.

[B]

So. Yeah, but this is. But this is what I love about your brain, which is 99.9% of people on the planet would. If mom says, come to me with Vegas, I just want a nice time with you, they would say, fine, I'll spend a hundred dollars, and then I'll just sit with you or whatever. You know, whatever's in their limits. And maybe they'll play somewhat seriously and slowly to maximize, like, no big bets, all minimum bets to just maximize the length of play. They would probably not have figured out which game can I lose the least amount on, which is blackjack. They probably play something where they guess they can lose the least amount on or just play the game that their mom likes. But the fact that you did that and then your brain works in a way that you could not help yourself, but to find the advantage to prolong the game and learn to count cards. This is what I love about you. It's not the bite of the apple you take. We all take the first bite. It's that you always find a way to take a second bite of the apple. And this is what I love. There's always something in addition to the thing that you started to do is. And I'm just trying to think now, like, even your own platform, like, you always find a plus one in everything, even in the way you're trying to sort of like, make a. You have accidental fame. Is it fair that. Is it fair to say?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or is it. Or is it a little more prescriptive than that?

[A]

I think I was trying to reach people with my music before I started this whole social media thing, but in a different way.

[B]

You had fame. Ish.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

From the music.

[A]

A very small.

[B]

Small but loyal group. From the music. But the. When. When the poem started, and I think it was the font poem that really put you on the map.

[A]

Well, the font skit. And really was the. Before that, it was the. The Big bang poem, which is a space poem that I wrote that was like, probably the big thing that launched my. Oh, that's right.

[B]

I remember that one, too. Who's the other guy?

[A]

Hank Green. We were just talking.

[B]

Oh, that's Hank Green.

[A]

The lovely Hank Green. Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So. Yes, the space poem, the Big Bang, which is, by the way, brilliant poem. So the poem and the skit really launched you. You had viral success. Yep, twice. Did you know that was going to happen?

[A]

No, no, definitely did not. And really what happened was that I was. I was very much just all in on the musician career. That's what I did for 10 years. I was touring, and, you know, I was kind of picking up steam as we went along. We were slowly growing, and we had these tours set up in, like, Europe and Australia. And then, bam, the pandemic happened. Everything got canceled. Everything we had planned out for that year got canceled. And my first thought was, like, oh, no, all the money that we're gonna lose and, like, how will we pay the bills? And then my second thought was like, thank God, because I really needed a break. I was, like, getting sick all the time on the road. I had no time to create anything new. I was just playing the stuff I had written. And, you know, sometimes five years ago, there just was. I had a schedule that did not allow me to be a human being and certainly not a creative human being. So when everything got canceled, it was such a blessing in disguise because then I rediscovered my creativity and then discovered that it was like it went beyond music. I could write other things.

[B]

Had you not written poems?

[A]

I'd always written poems. I mean, I think every English major has written some poems at some point. But I never shared anything publicly with anyone, and I had never allowed myself to be playful online. It was always just like, share your music, you know, and TikTok and these new vertical format apps, just. They really encourage something in me, just like in a lot of people. I think it's just like, share yourself, share. You know, be silly. Like, who cares? We're all just killing time in the pandemic. It doesn't matter. So I shared this comedy side, and that seemed to, well, like an earnest poetry side and then also a comedy side. I should probably niche down at some point, but, you know, because you're a.

[B]

Polymath, well, there's no niching down. We love you for your diversity, but.

[A]

Various things, you know, just throwing things at the wall and it turns out, like, other things were sticking and I was just getting a lot of fulfillment from it. So I haven't really gone back to the musician lifestyle, although I'm starting to dip my toe back into it now.

[B]

What's so interesting is I don't think people appreciate the value of space for a creative person. Like you said, you're sort of going about this music career, and then when you get a gap where you can't do the thing, you can only think about doing the thing.

[A]

Yeah, it.

[B]

And we saw it. Like, I remember Bo Burnham, you know, when he wrote Inside during the pandemic, and it was. It was of a time. I'm not sure it holds up anymore. I don't think you can watch it in 10 years.

[A]

Some of those songs still will.

[B]

The songs, yes. But as a piece of art.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I don't know if it's timeless or not, but it is a work of sheer genius. And I'd seen his comedy before and I think he's a brilliant comedian, but this was something. This was something else that only could have been made. Only could have been made in that. In that time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, I'm thinking about my own creative process and people like, how do you come up with ideas and what they would.

[A]

I.

[B]

It's hard to explain, which is the way I come up with ideas is when I'm not thinking. I get Ideas sparked in conversation. But it's the rumination, the space, the gaps. You know, I, I like to describe my writing processes is days and weeks of guilt and self loathing punctuated by hours of sheer brilliance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If only I could predict when those hours would happen.

[A]

Yeah. And the trick is to be ready for.

[B]

And the trick is to be ready for them. And I've sat at home going, can't go out in case it strikes. And then I like just end up watching TV and like, I should have gone out. And then I go out and then it starts happening and I'm like grabbing anything I can write on napkins. I literally have sugar, sugar packets, because I couldn't find anything to write. And I know that one loses ideas as quickly as they happen. And so if you don't. If I don't capture it immediately, I will lose it, even if I. Wait a minute.

[A]

The muse is not patient.

[B]

The muse is not patient. And so literally, I would take a sugar packet and open it delicately, dump out the sugar, grab a pen and start writing. I have, I have binder clips of sugar packets with ideas on them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the thing that I've learned is you can't. Is I, as. I can't be precious. You just.

[A]

Yeah, you can't be Precious.

[B]

You know, 99 of the ideas are shit. And the other 1%, I can't read my handwriting.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it's the act of the writing that is actually more important because I sometimes go back and read them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But once they're written, for some reason, they get stored somewhere else. But this idea of gaps in space, you said it during the pandemic, you know, during watching TikTok, it was unbelievable how funny people were.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And how creative people were. Like, I didn't realize that people were that funny and that creative of every age and every disposition. And just people are really funny, you know, And I don't think anybody guessed that from you, did they?

[A]

No, no, definitely not. So. Yeah, and I think that's true. And also when you're, when you're contributing to that and trying to be your own brand of funny and your own brand of witty and, you know, smart or whatever, and to try to contribute to the conversation, part of what I find is helpful is to remember that your audience is also that it's not just the people making this, this content, it's also the people consuming. And when you reach a wide enough audience, like, I can say confidently that all, even my, my best work, the work that I've spent the Most time on that. I've put a lot of myself into that. I've made intentionally very. You know, I've tried to make it witty. I've tried to make it funny. Nothing I've ever posted will beat the top comment underneath the post, you know, because you get the hive mind and people are so funny and they're so smart, you know, so it's a good way to. To stay focused and to stay humble and. And, you know, and just to realize, like, you're part of. You're part of a species that's really innovative and smart and funny. And I think with these platforms, a lot of that rises to the top. You get. You get really smart and funny top.

[B]

Comments, but you're also attracting smart and funny people.

[A]

I've been really lucky with the community.

[B]

I mean. Well, you're attracting. There's a lot of people like us. There's a lot of nerds who really like your stuff because you have to know a little bit about something.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

To appreciate your humor.

[A]

And I've pushed it a little. I'm like, could I make a really weird, obscure skit about particles hanging out in the Salooniverse and talk about the Higgs boson?

[B]

Loved it.

[A]

And a lot of people in the comments, like, I didn't know what that was, and then I googled it and looked it up, and now I know what it is, and that makes me happy. It's like a sort of gotcha. Now we know more.

[B]

But this is the genius of your work, because we live in a world with unlimited access to unlimited information, and yet still we see a post online or we hear a comment from a politician or some CEO said something, and in the span of 10 seconds, we can verify that statement or not, and we don't. I mean, I joke about it. Like, I go around saying, so I read the study. I think it's true. I don't know. But here you go. I literally could verify it any day. But they don't.

[A]

Yeah, there's just.

[B]

This is like. It's amazing how the. The momentum of laziness when we have the access. And what I love about your work is it forces somebody to go, what is that? And they do go look it up. Not because they want to be smarter, it's because they want to get the joke.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. You dangle the joke as a carrot.

[B]

Dangle the joke as a carrot.

[A]

Where.

[B]

Where all the other criteria of, like. All the other circumstances of like, what's that politician saying? What's that CEO saying? It's like, ugh, I have to go. Be smart now. Forget it. Yeah, you know, I'd rather just react. It's easier.

[A]

But if the reward is getting in on a joke and getting to be part of this little community where everybody's joking in the comments, then, yeah, maybe it's worth looking up. What's a Higgs boson?

[B]

You know, I want to go back to this idea of space because I'm so fascinated by the gaps in space. Do you force your schedule because you're busier now than you ever have been? Do you force gaps in space? Because for you, lockdown was a thing that unleashed this new, new creativity. Do you make mini lockdowns for yourself?

[A]

Yes, absolutely. Well, it taught me the value of that.

[B]

So how do you do that? Like, do you schedule space? Like, do you put a blank thing in your calendar where, like, there's presence and absence?

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's like.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I would love to tell you that I'm really disciplined and I have my phone and it's locked in a safe, like, from my creative hours every morning. I would love to tell you that I don't. I'm just as addicted to everything. I'm addicted to the supply that I give out, which is social media, dopamine, whatever, as. As the people who are consuming this stuff. But I think what I do try to do, though, is I try to consume. I try to consume more of the things that are going to fill me up creatively so that my output is better. So instead of spending, you know, four hours a day just combing through social media, you know, trusting the algorithm to give me the things to fill me up, which it will not. You know, I will try to minimize that amount of time and try to instead replace it with, like, rereading Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own or something. Something I know is going to. If I'm. Especially if I'm going through a rut, I'll revisit the things that I know are going to light me on fire and they're going to create better output for me.

[B]

Okay, so this is. This is. Okay, this is good. So I'm not a reader, which we've talked about. I'm over the shame, but I still have embarrassment. I'm not a reader, but I do still need those things. I've had to recreate my creative process every time I've had to do something creative, because what worked before doesn't work again. I don't believe in writer's block. Okay, right. I believe that the, the format or system that you're using to create in the past isn't working anymore. So you're not having writer's block. It's not that you're having no ideas. The system is broken, okay? And so what we do, when people have writer's block, they keep doing the same system and blaming themselves. And I say, okay, I know I have ideas. I know I'm an idea guy. So if I'm having no ideas, am I broken, or is the way I'm attempting to have ideas broken? And so I have experimented with an. Every time I lock up on ideas, I break down on ideas. I change the way I'm coming up with ideas. But this idea of space, like, I. When I realized I needed time. And so here's the thing. So I learned this a bunch of years ago, which is the. Our rational brains, our thinking brains, the part that weighs the pros and cons and access our expertise, that has access to the equivalent of about 2ft of information around us, right? Our subconscious brains, our limbic brains, have access to the equivalent of something like three acres of information around us. Every conversation we've had, every movie we've seen, every book we've read gets stored somewhere. You just don't have access to it. And so the value of the brainstorming session is not to solve the problem, it's to ask the questions. Because your brain won't ruminate on things that aren't presented. It won't just solve problems that don't exist in your life. You're not going to just, you know, come up with some random idea like a problem must exist or a question must be asked, and then you can quote, unquote, think about it. But if you think about it, we. We have our best ideas when we're falling asleep or when we go for a run or we're standing in the shower or, you know, drive sitting in traffic. Like, it's. When we're not, quote, unquote, thinking, but the brain is still ruminating in the subconscious, and it gives you the idea. And it seems like divine intervention, but it's not. It's just your limbic brain, it's been.

[A]

Working on the problem, and it's been.

[B]

Working on the problem the whole time. And so the problem is you need those g. For the. For your mind to give you the ideas. And in our modern world, we have filled in all those gaps. So we don't sit on the subway on our commute and just stare off into space anymore. We're on our phones. We don't just sit in the car in traffic and just sort of let our minds wander. We make a phone call. I mean, you go out for dinner with a friend and they go to the bathroom. We don't just sit and, like, look around the room or talk to somebody or talk to somebody. We pull out our phones because it's too uncomfortable to just sit. And so I have worked very hard to force myself. Like, if I. If I go out for dinner, I give my phone to someone else. Be like, here's my phone. Put it in your bag. So when they go to the bathroom, they take my phone with them.

[A]

That's.

[B]

And so I'm forced because I have no willpower. I'm addicted like everybody else. But if you take away the crack. Can't do crack.

[A]

Yep. I do the same thing with daily walks. So I don't allow myself to bring a phone. Or it's.

[B]

But it's. You're creating space and gaps.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And those moments. And by the way, space and gaps can also be created going to a museum or, you know, it's just engaging in other. Passive stimulation. Not playing a game, not doing work, not surfing the Internet. Passive stimulation has been absolutely invaluable to my idea generation.

[A]

But I think another important piece of it is something you said earlier where you said, a question must be asked.

[B]

A question must be.

[A]

We can't expect our brains, the brain that's ruminating and doing all this work behind the scenes, to be working on a problem that we haven't presented to it. It won't just spit out random ideas like you said. So I think our brains are computers. There needs to be an input. We need to ask it something. We need to ask it to solve a problem. And the problem might be, what is my next idea? What is the thing I want to write about next? Or whatever. But we need to actively feed our brains those questions and give them something to work on.

[B]

I think more specific than that, too. At least for me. You know, that's where the conversations happen. Because the. Backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards, you know, yes, there's answers in those conversations, but it raises more questions. And so it's not like, what's my next idea? But rather like, why are we friends? Like, and then you start saying, why are we friends? Okay. Like, I understand the biology, I understand the anthropology. I can look that stuff up. That's pretty written about. What is a friend now it gets complicated.

[A]

Yeah. So it's not just asking a question. What is my next Idea, it's specific questions about specific.

[B]

And they can be big problems like, like help me understand the world order as we know it post Cold War. That's something I've actually thought about, right? Like what is the new world order? And it's such a big question that it's not going to be one. And that's why all the conversations and all of the articles I'm reading and all of the people I'm interacting who have different points of view, I'll either ask directly, so what do you think about the world right now? And it's all feeding that until at some point you go, aha, I have an idea. You need, I guess two things you need to ask three things. You need the question to be posed, big or small. You need to feed it with data through conversations, reading whatever your chosen preferred way of intake is. And then, and only then do you need space and gaps. And we do the first, we do the second, we don't do the third.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think this is the thing, and there's been stuff written about this, there's a basic global decline in ideas like the number of patents that are filed these days is vastly fewer, fewer than in the past. And, and, and the quality of the patents is lower. And so like we know that there's fewer ideas that are happening. And I think this idea of space and gaps and if we're going to be a hyper scheduled, hyper connected world, not rebelling against it, just it is what it is, then schedule gaps.

[A]

See now I know you are an optimist. This is sort of central to you.

[B]

It has been, I've been accused of.

[A]

Such, I will say the pessimistic take on this is, and I'm not calling myself a pessimist, although I have tendencies, is that now that we have the technology we have, we won't in any meaningful way be able to make those spaces the way that you're saying. And instead I think what will happen is we'll channel our decision making our idea generation into our technology. Soon we're going to have, you know, you talk about the decline in patents, we're going to have AI coming up with a lot of solutions for us that we simply haven't devoted the brain resources to think about because we don't have to anymore. We have a much bigger, smarter brain to sort of solve those problems for us.

[B]

I don't think it's either or, I think it's both. I think, you know, just as the calculator or the abacus could help us do calculations faster, the calculator up that ante. Certain things in mathematics or going to the supermarket got quicker. And so I think where math got quicker, ideas will get quicker. But that doesn't mean that the machine has the lock and all the ideas.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I still think that a human generated idea will always be the kind of idea that it's the asymmetrical idea, it's the idea that nobody could see happening because. And maybe I just either underestimate the power of the machine or overestimate the power of the brain, the human brain.

[A]

But I have a more pessimistic view in general of like, you know, I think that machines will take a lot of our purpose, you know, But I do think there will be ways for us to work with them and alongside them to also, you know, generate ideas. Continue generating ideas. There'll always be a premium on human made creations, human generated ideas. But I just, I do think that a lot of the, the really heavy lifting, problem solving the things that you'll need patents for, that's all gonna, I think we're gonna see a major shift toward.

[B]

And then the question is, can you put a patent on a thing that a machine came up with when the.

[A]

Company who made the machine will probably get the patent?

[B]

That's where IP law is gonna get completely destroyed. Have you found this in your work yet? I know in the art world, artists are being asked to sign affidavits to affirm that this was designed and produced by them and not by AI. Have you found that in your work yet that people are asking you to say, did you actually come with this or did the machine come up with this for you?

[A]

Not yet. I'm sure it's coming and I'm sure I've signed some agreement already that's signed away all my creative rights.

[B]

I feel like it's not just the creative rights. It's. They want the affirmation that the person.

[A]

Came up with it, that, that it wasn't AI generated.

[B]

So like, hey, this little cute little skit you wrote, this little poem that.

[A]

You write, like that is in many contracts. Yeah.

[B]

So they want to know that you wrote it and you did not write it with AI.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So that's what I mean. Which is, we, we're not buying the product, we're buying the story.

[A]

Yeah, well, you're buying a piece of the creator.

[B]

You're buying a piece, but you're buying the fact that, hey, she did this, right?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And that there's a premium on the human, on the man made, the human made.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm not saying that all like AI assisted art is worthless and should be thrown in the trash.

[B]

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

[A]

But I do think there will always be a premium on human, fully human made things. I mean we, we don't watch, we don't sit around for fun watching computers talk to each other, play chess against each other. We watch humans play chess. It's more interesting story, they're better at it.

[B]

But we watch humans because we like watching the mistake, the potential for the mistake.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's true. Isn't that beautiful though, that the reason we find a human game more interesting even though they're not as good, is the drama of the pressure and the mistake.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is the part that we find entertaining.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It's not actually the gameplay.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's the, it's the human drama. Oh, I love that. I think one of the really good sides of the AI. And by the way, I can't have a frickin conversation with that AI coming up.

[A]

Oh, I'm sure this is just all.

[B]

Over the podcast, every conference, every other talk is AI. But I think it'll help us appreciate because we have this, at least in America, we have this sort of vomit reaction to the concept of boredom. Like that it's some sort of, you cannot be bored, you know, And I think boredom is the ultimate space where you sit there staring off at the clouds, not knowing what to do and you're kind of like, how are you? I don't know, a little bored, got nothing to do. And I think there's joy in the appreciation of boredom because as I was saying before, for a curious mind, it goes right back to the beginning. For a curious mind, there's always questions and problems being asked, and yet there's not enough solutions to all the questions. And I think boredom and joy of boredom is the thing that not only keeps us human, but helps us see things, find things, invent things, write things, paint things, sing things that the machine never can, never will. And I think, I think in this hyper creative, not hyper, hyper productive world that we live in, where the machines are just making us even more productive, that our creativity comes from being bored, not from being active.

[A]

Yeah, I think I agree because boredom is the very space you were talking about. We need to create spaces where we can allow ourselves to. And I don't know if boredom is exactly the right word, but allow our brains to be freed of distraction by boredom.

[B]

I mean, I have nothing to do with. Yeah, I have nothing to do at most walking yeah.

[A]

And that's why I take my. I guess you could call them boredom walks. I take my like enforced boredom walks so that my. I'm forcing my brain to think to just. Whether it's problem solving or just thinking about the world around me or whatever it is. I think it's really important that I don't have my device. And I'm just forced for the next 45 minutes, however long the walk is to my destination, to just ruminate.

[B]

And the important thing here is that it's okay if nothing happens.

[A]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

By applying pressure to the boredom is. Is the paradox is the exact problem.

[A]

We'Re trying to solve for or giving permission for boredom.

[B]

Giving permission.

[A]

I can just be bored. I don't have to solve problems on my walk.

[B]

And that's one of the things that people don't realize, which is I actually, I won't schedule anything in my calendar for Fridays. Now. I work on Fridays, but I will not pre schedule anything on a Friday. It has to be blank. So that if I choose to have three hours or four hours of whatever I want, which includes staring off at a wall, that is my prerogative. And this is expanded because I used to do our. Like, I would literally put an hour break in my calendar to do nothing. I would schedule nothing. Not that I'm scheduling nothing. I'm scheduling to do nothing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The act of nothing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And I think in any job it's. I don't care what your job is. I don't care if you're a homemaker. I don't care if you're a caretaker, a parent. I don't care if you're in a creative job, a non creative job. I think all problems are solved and maybe boredom just has bad branding.

[A]

Yeah, it does.

[B]

What should we call it? Because we can't call it creative space because that creates pressure that the space has to be creative.

[A]

And it doesn't maybe a period of stasis or openness.

[B]

Good nothing.

[A]

Yeah, good nothing.

[B]

I'm gonna do good nothing for an hour.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I like good nothing. What are you doing right now? Good nothing. You want to do something?

[A]

No, it's my good nothing time.

[B]

Doing my good nothing time.

[A]

Yeah, I like that. Yeah. It's better than boredom.

[B]

It's better than boredom because I'm not bored. I mean, sometimes I am.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, I've. I went out for dinner with a friend last night and you know, she went to the bathroom and I sat there and just stared around in the, in the restaurant and Yeah, I was bored and started wondering, like, she. Okay. Like, she's been gone a long time. I wish she'd come back. I'm kind of bored. Do you have the same paranoia that I do when you go out for dinner with a friend, especially if it's a new friend and there's a line at the bathroom in a restaurant, and so. Or somebody's in there for far too long and you're just waiting for them to come out. And so you find yourself waiting for a very long time. And then immediately you have the paranoia that the other person thinks that you have, like, stomach problems or something because you've been gone a long time. But. And I always come up like, oh, my God, the line was really long. Somebody was in there. It's not me. It's not my stomach problems. I was. I was really quick in there. I have that intense paranoia that somebody thinks I'm sick because I was gone.

[A]

Well, sometimes I do have stomach problems, and I'll say it. Even then, there's such a long line.

[B]

Sneaky, sneaky. Okay, I have a. I have a couple more questions.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

What's the thing you've dealt with? What's the challenge you've.

[A]

For me, it's. It's anxiety. It's an intense, you know, panic disorder. I get panic attacks. They used to be incredibly bad when I was a teenager and then into, like, early 20s college, almost crippling. I had intense agoraphobia, could barely leave my apartment and. And was, like, untreated, you know, during those times. And.

[B]

And I kept thinking, agoraphobia is afraid of outside.

[A]

Yeah. Like, not afraid of people not being able to leave your place because of fears of anxiety, panic attacks, which are happening anyway. So. Yeah. So, yeah, I think just really thinking back to those memories, it was just like a. Like, again, like a warning sign. Like, if I don't get my stuff together and I don't get treated, this is the. The ultimate reality, and it's going to tear family apart.

[B]

And, you know, how old were you when you started to be like, I think I need someone to look after me.

[A]

Well, that's a good thing about having, you know, grandparents that have gone through stuff like that is you realize early on that, you know, this is a. This is a thing that needs to be treated. It's a condition, you know, So I was probably 16 when I finally started to ask for help because I was having such intense panic attacks at school. I was having to leave classes, which is, you know, like we said earlier, I'M afraid of authority. I like to be a good student when I can. And having to, like, run out of class and look like I'm skipping or something was not.

[B]

Which only added to the anxiety.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Knowing that you have to be in class.

[B]

Is it under control now?

[A]

I would say it's like as under control as it probably ever will be to the point where I can live a normal life, but I just. I always have to deal with panic attacks.

[B]

How often do they happen now?

[A]

It depends if I'm traveling, if there's like a lot of going on, especially if I'm traveling, I'll have them regularly on in my travels. So maybe every few days or sometimes multiple times a day. But if I'm home in my routines and I'm taking care of myself and everything, then maybe once. Once in a month.

[B]

Is there a reason you choose to talk about it?

[A]

I mean, I just think we could all just talk more about our mental health. I think that there. I feel two ways about it because I also think there's like an over. Maybe an over diagnosing.

[B]

We over diagnose things?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like everybody who's a little bit, you know, everybody's ocd, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, they don't realize what real OCD is, which is deep, deep, deep superstition like your grandmother had.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. There are so many forms of it, but, yeah, that's the. How her is manifested. But yeah. I think, you know, on one hand we have people, I think, over diagnosing themselves and others and their friends and talking about it. And then I think there's another side of it where, you know, people who have really struggle with severe, debilitating mental illness still don't really want to talk about it. And I think it's. It's just better for everybody if we get the word out there that, that these things happen because, you know, you. If you don't, it just gets worse. It festers, and then we have negative outcomes, you know, so.

[B]

Have you ever written a poem about it?

[A]

No. It's weird how I find that the things that are the most personal and then go down the deepest are things I can't seem to get myself to write about. Maybe that'll change, I don't know, maybe one day. But I like to just find solace in, like, humor and distract away from that.

[B]

I do find it ironic that you are such a rule follower and you sort of respect authority figures and running out of class created more anxiety.

[A]

It's not that I respect authority figures, fine.

[B]

But you like rules?

[A]

I. I am afraid to break the rules.

[B]

Yet you count cards and are banned from casinos.

[A]

But that's not a good feeling. When they, When I do, I see the suits swarming because they get the pit bosses together, they start swarming. I hear the telephones ringing. I know they're coming. I hate that I get all sweaty and. And then I.

[B]

Do you try and anticipate it and leave before they throw you out?

[A]

No, I just let it happen because. Yeah, it's just better to know because sometimes you're wrong. Sometimes they're actually just. Just hanging out, talking about something else, you know, and then they all disperse. So, no, they'll come over and they're generally pretty nice.

[B]

I will say they haven't broken the law.

[A]

Well, right. They'll say. They'll say something really sweet like, ma', am, I'm sorry, but your play is just a little too advanced for us. We won't be able to take your action here, but you're welcome to, you know, enjoy yourself at the bar or any other game in the. In the casino.

[B]

They invite you to play. They invite you to play craps.

[A]

You're welcome to lose your money at our other places where you don't have the advantage. So other. Other ones ban you, though, from the whole premises. So just depends on the. If you get a mall cop type. Pitbull. Pippa.

[B]

So, yeah, by the way, we should. I have to like, insert a warning. Like, if you're listening to this podcast, the conversation is going about to get incredibly nerdy and we're going to talk about Star wars and archetypes and in depth characters. And if you don't know what we're talking about and you don't like Star wars, perhaps go listen to a podcast, another podcast right now. So you and I, the first time we met, we very quickly bonded about our love of science fiction. You skew Star Trek. I skew Star Wars.

[A]

I mean, I love them almost equally.

[B]

That is not true.

[A]

If you put a gun to my head and you told me I had to only keep one, I would say Star Trek.

[B]

I know that because no one. It's like there's no such thing as I love Star Trek and Star wars equally. It is impossible and it doesn't exist for anyone.

[A]

I come very close.

[B]

Well, you're the one. It's just that skew.

[A]

It's still skew. And only because there's more of Star Trek. I've spent more hours, I've logged more hours and more to consume whatever. So that whatever. Whatever the reason, I just want to belong to Both fandoms.

[B]

No one is 50. 50. On Star Trek and Star wars, everybody skews one way. I like Star Trek. I love Star Wars.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I like Star Trek, and I like different Star Treks. You know, like, I'm a Trekker, not a Trekkie.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which means I like Next Generation.

[A]

Ah.

[B]

Which apparently they call themselves truckers.

[A]

I didn't know that. I mean, maybe I'm not a real member of the community.

[B]

Maybe. Maybe I'm wrong or it's outdated because there have been so many Star Trek since then. So I don't know what the new bifurcations are, or they wouldn't be bifurcations, because that's only two things. But. But I don't know what the new delineations are, but it was my understanding when Next Generation came out that you were a Trekker if you were, like, into Next Generation, you were a Trekkie if you're into the old Captain Kirk stuff.

[A]

Okay. I learned something new. That's. That's amazing. I don't think I didn't notice my bedazzled. Yeah, this is amazing. And I. I don't know how the camera angle is, but I love that I'm. I'm associated here with the dark side. You are associated with the lone rebel hero. Yeah, I like that because in my mind, I think I've said this elsewhere. Star Wars. Star wars is not the story of the Skywalkers. It's not even the story of a beautiful rebellion against an oppressive regime. It's the story of a brilliant political strategist named Chief Palpatine, whose. Whose Machiavellian plans were foiled by dumb luck and familial relations. And if I get canceled for anything off of this podcast, it's going to be for being a Palpatine apologist. I just love Palpatine as a character.

[B]

I know you do. Yeah. I mean, yeah, he's just.

[A]

You just have to admire the man. It's like he. He.

[B]

I mean, he'll stop at nothing. He's a.

[A]

He stops nothing. Well, like most villains, but he goes so much further because he lays the most intricate plan, and it's just airtight. I mean, he's. He creates the Clone Wars. He's orchestrating things on both sides, you know?

[B]

No, he's an evil genius.

[A]

Just an intense genius, and also one of the most gifted force users of all time. Happens to be both. Happens to be an evil mastermind and a gifted force user. It takes Both, you know, Anakin and Luke, it takes a cheap shot, betrayal to kill him in the end and that even that doesn't kill him.

[B]

And. And a great actor pretends to be good when he's really bad and, like, got everybody fooled.

[A]

His genial senator, what a sweet old man, you know, so charming. And then his like, dark, horrible voice, right? Such an incredible, like, it's the perfect amount of camp in that voice. It doesn't go too far somehow, but it's just perfect.

[B]

And one of the things, I think that the reason Star wars is important in the world is because the, the archetypes of all the characters are so true, so consistent that everybody. You can learn about anybody by saying, which one are you? And like, are you a Han Solo? Are you Luke skywalker? You see 3PO? Are you R2D2? Are you Darth Vader? Like, everybody knows who they are and you can know everything. Like, I have a friend who's like, oh, I am so C3PO. Like, that's.

[A]

I also have a best friend who is 100% C3PO.

[B]

You know, everything and. Okay, so let's compare. I'll just tell you what my friend was like and you tell me if your friend was the same.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like service oriented. Like, loves to like, take care of people and like, do get things done for them. Finds joy in like getting through the checklist. Extremely organized. Yes, right.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

This is what I'm saying. They're archetypes, so you can learn everything about a person simply by them telling you which Star wars character they are. They're. They're. Find most like them or most drawn to.

[A]

So who would Star Trek character or Start wars character. Are you.

[B]

So I am an equal lover. Of Boba. Of Boba Fett and Han Solo.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm full. You know, if you force me, like gun to your head. Pick one. I mean, I had two computers at a laptop and a desktop and one was named Han Solo and the other ones was named Boba Fett. Yeah, but if I don't know how to choose, can you guess why I like those?

[A]

No, I'm trying, I'm trying to.

[B]

You mean you and I have hung out a little bit. We're not besties. But the. But you know me enough, I think. I mean, I can tell you I thought about it plenty.

[A]

But why Boba Fett? Tell me that one.

[B]

Okay, well, I can't talk about Boba Fett without talking about Han Solo. They're both incredibly independent, right? Like, Boba Fett is just He's. He's a bounty hunter, but he. He works for himself. Right? And Han Solo, super independent. I guess maybe I'm more like Han Solo than Boba Fett. Boba Fett's just so damn cool. He's just so damn cool. He is so, I guess, more like Han Solo, which is fiercely independent, begrudgingly, like, really wants to be a part of the group, but really wants to be himself and is in constant battle. Like, I want to be my own person, but I want to be a part of the team, but I want to be my own person, but I want to be a part of that team. And as independent as he is, always goes everywhere with a friend. Chewy just. Yeah. So that's where I'm different than Boba Fett. Boba Fett's a total loner and.

[A]

And really loyal to those friends that he.

[B]

Super loyal to those friends and plays up the independent. Like, I don't really care about you guys, but he really does a lot.

[A]

Oh, 100.

[B]

And so it's the hyper independence, but the. The constant struggle of, I want to be my own self, but I also want to be a part of the group at all times. That paradox. But also as independent he is. He goes everywhere, the friend. And that. I'm just. And. And that rebel spirit of. Let's just give it a try. It, to me is. I am. I'm so. I so identify with Han Solo.

[A]

Yeah. I think for me, it's. It's. Well, I love Palpatine. I love to say I identify. I mean, obviously, in the real world, authoritarian regimes, tyrants. Ew, gross. Don't want anything to do with it. In the world of Star wars, he is such. I won't call him a dynamic character because he never changes like any. You know, a dynamic character is one who, like, discovers something about themselves and has changed. And in the process, we as viewers change, too, because we learn something about ourselves that's not Palpatine. He literally never changes. He's static throughout. But that character is so well drawn. And so.

[B]

So what about you is Palpatine.

[A]

Well, he's a planner, and I like to be. I like to be a planner. You know, his plans tragically did not work out through real. No fault of his own, but. But, yeah, I'm inspired by his. His scheming. I won't say that I see myself in him entirely. I think if I really had to pick a character, I would say R2D2, because R2D2 is also, by the way.

[B]

The original it's the original episode 4, 5, 6 that are the perfect archetypes. It's those. Those. Those are the characters. The original characters.

[A]

Although you really see palpatine shine in 1, 2, and 3.

[B]

Exactly. But you and I have had this fight, which is. You can keep your 1, 2, 3. And I'll.

[A]

But again, I'll start Star wars as a Palpatine fan. You gotta watch the prequels.

[B]

I watched them.

[A]

No, I know, I know.

[B]

Won't watch them again.

[A]

But they're. They're worth it for Palpatine.

[B]

Okay, so what is it about R2? D2?

[A]

R2. D2 is. R2 is incredibly underestimated. And I like that. He's. He always seems to know exactly what's going on. He's, like, privy to more information than we are even aware. Like, everybody's writing him off as this little droid. It's like, oh, get out of the way, you trash can. You know? But. But he's always saving the day. He's prepared. He. He knows where the ma. Where, you know, Luke Skywalker's at. He's. He's just behind the scenes, just so instrumental to everything, the entire mission.

[B]

Are you underestimated?

[A]

And I. I want to say, like, what I like about him is that he's not out there being flashy about it. He's just.

[B]

He's just getting the job done.

[A]

Yeah, he gets the job done. He's. He's really capable. Really, like, much smarter than people think and. And humble about it. And he's funny. And I just think that, I don't know, I relate to RTU in that way. You know.

[B]

Unexpectedly funny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Good planner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Always lurking in the background.

[A]

But, like. Yeah.

[B]

Not. Not a big bragger.

[A]

No, he does that describes you. Yeah. I mean, we. I mean, to be fair, we don't know what he's saying only C3PO can understand.

[B]

But see, we. We assume that C3PO is accurately translating because that C3PO's nature.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Translator.

[A]

And I love the relationship between them because R2 is always, like, checking C3PO, who is kind of braggadocious and. Right. But anyway, I just. I really like R2D2.

[B]

He's probably the most secure character in all of them.

[A]

Yeah, He's.

[B]

He's. All of them have their baggage and he doesn't. He's gonna. He's. He's kind of like. He just gets the job. He just gets his shit going. Gets the job done.

[A]

There's a reason why Anakin, you know, bends over backwards To. To protect him and through the Clone wars, you know, the animated.

[B]

And take him with.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He's. He's the chosen.

[A]

There's an episode where he almost gets left behind, and it's like, oh, it's a lost cause. It's just a droid. Just let him get destroyed with the ship or whatever. And Anakin's like, nope, I'm actually going to go risk my life to get to. He's my friend.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think that that's a perfect way to end this and to move into Roswell, which is. I think you are a friend. That everyone would be lucky to have you by their side. You are R2D2.

[A]

Thank you, Simon. I won't call you C3PO, because you're not that. But you're. You're Han Solo, so.

[B]

Yeah, I am. Can I ask a favor?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is totally selfish. Totally selfish. I've. I've discovered you because of this magical song called Roswell.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

My favorite thing about the song is it's accurate. It.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Every line.

[A]

Accurate.

[B]

Every line. And I knew the story of Roswell.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And how it became a thing that it wasn't. It's not aliens, but it's funny. And I love that every line of that song is an education. Like, if you. If somebody sings along, they're smarter.

[A]

Here's one thing, though, that I kind of got slightly wrong, and I'm going to take this opportunity to correct myself. So I say I mentioned the CIA, and technically, the CIA was created like a month after the oss. Yeah. I don't know. Was it. Yeah. I don't know the exact.

[B]

I mean, it was CIA. Ish.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The precursor.

[A]

But the CIA was formed kind of in the wake of this event.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So maybe because of this event. We don't know. But I did mention that they called the CIA, which technically, they couldn't have done that.

[B]

They couldn't have done that. But they called the oss.

[A]

But it's a fun line. It's a fun line to put in there.

[B]

So let's just be clear. What happened at Roswell?

[A]

I mean.

[B]

Well, actually, we don't have to. My ask is, can you please sing the song?

[A]

Yeah. And I can tell you exactly what happened in Roswell by. By singing.

[B]

By singing the song. But first, tell us the origin story of the song. How did that song come to be?

[A]

So Tony and I were. Tony's a lead guitarist in my band, and we were coming back from Minneapolis having played a show, and we decided since we Were coming close. We're going through New Mexico to get back to la. I, like, we have to visit Roswell. Like, that's, That's. As a space nerd, you know, I'm less into conspiracy theories, but whatever. I. I just wanted to see it. So we. We stopped through Roswell. We were there for two days, and then on our way out, we were actually about to leave. The van broke down. So. And it broke down hard. Like they had to get like a. There's some obscure piece that they needed to send in. And we ended up being there for 10 full days while the van was being fixed.

[B]

10 days?

[A]

10 days.

[B]

I mean, that's like a. Okay. That's a long time to be.

[A]

It was a long time. And they kept. They kept saying, and Roswell's in the.

[B]

Middle of nowhere, right?

[A]

Yeah. There's not much to do other than learn about the incident and go to the museum and all the, like, kitschy alien things. It's great. I mean, even the McDonald's there has like, alien. It's like a spaceship. And it's really. It's really a cute town. I liked it a lot and everybody was super nice, so I would. I was asking locals about it. I was going to the museum. I was reading books about it. Like, what else are you going to do for 10 days in Roswell? And then I was like, we have to write a song while we're here. So before we left, we. We. We wrote the song and then we filmed it in front of the Roswell, like, water tower.

[B]

I hate to point this out, okay, But Roswell was your lockdown. It was your blank space. It was your good nothing.

[A]

It was.

[B]

And good nothing. You had nothing to do. You're bored because you've exhausted everything there is to do in Roswell. The only thing left to do was to be creative.

[A]

Exactly. That's exactly right.

[B]

Maybe we shouldn't call it good nothing. Maybe we should call it Roswell time.

[A]

That. I like that.

[B]

I need some Roswell time.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I need to be stuck in Roswell to create something. I like it.

[A]

It's great.

[B]

Roswell time. It is. Okay. So amazing. We have El Cordova and Tony Lindgren, and they're going to perform Roswell for us. Yay.

[A]

Yes. We have to do it.

[C]

Back in 47. In the first week of July, there was lightning in the desert and explosions in the sky.

[A]

Unknown flying object came to crash into the Earth.

[C]

And a cattle man in Brazil found the wreckage, gathered up some scraps, and.

[A]

Then he brought them into town and.

[C]

The people gazed in wonder at the marble he had found. They found the county sheriff and they called the Air force base. They called the dod and then they called the CIA. There's big news today out in Roswell. That sleepy New Mexico Mexico town and Major Marcel, what can you tell us about Roswell?

[B]

Mother?

[C]

Roswell army airfield sent their finest personnel. A rank and file officer was young Major Marcel. The major told his story and it echoed around the globe. Flying sights were captured at Nouve, New Mexico, but the orders came from Washington. Materials were changed, the town was hushed in silence and macrazzo was detained. They scooped up all the evidence and flew into Fort Worth, staged a couple photos and the headlines were neighbors.

[A]

There'S.

[C]

Nothing to see here in Roswell. Torn up all the weather balloon. And Major Marcel was mistaken as well. About Roswell.

[A]

Get it, dummy?

[C]

Years pass on Roswell, but the story still persists. Rumors turn to theories and theories to turned to myth. But to his dying day, the major swore on all he had. There's no way in hell the thing that fell was made by human hands. So the mystery looks on out in Roswell at creepy little Mexico town. Major Marcel, what crin she tell us about Roswell.

[A]

The story of Roswell. Yeah. Thank you very much.

[B]

A Bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsey Garbinius, Phoebe Bradford and Devin Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonsinek.com thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.