Revisited: The Kennedy Family and the Search for Self with Journalist Maria Shriver

Summary

A Bit of Optimism

Episode: Revisited: The Kennedy Family and the Search for Self with Journalist Maria Shriver
Host: Simon Sinek
Guest: Maria Shriver
Date: March 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and introspective episode, Simon Sinek sits down with his close friend, journalist and author Maria Shriver, to discuss her journey of self-discovery, reclaiming her identity, and building a meaningful life despite the weight—and privilege—of family legacy. The conversation weaves between personal memoir, the importance of friendships, the experience of loss and vulnerability, and the challenge of being “enough” in environments obsessed with achievement. Maria shares reflections from her book I Am Maria, using poetry and candid memories to illuminate universal struggles with identity, belonging, heartbreak, and healing.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origin of Simon and Maria's Friendship

[00:00 – 05:30]

• Simon recounts the serendipitous beginnings of their friendship, starting with a surprise email from Maria wanting her son Patrick to meet Simon.
• Memorable anecdotes from their first family dinner, highlighting the lively and authentic atmosphere of the Shriver/Kennedy/Schwarzenegger household (“there's a lot of big personalities at the table” — [03:26], Maria).
• The importance of building individual relationships with each family member is emphasized by Maria:
  “You have this relationship with my whole family, with my brothers. And so I think that's such a gift in my life.” ([05:10], Maria)

2. Growing Up Kennedy: Legacy and Identity

[05:32 – 10:30]

• Maria talks about normalizing extraordinary experiences (e.g., visiting "Uncle Jack" at the White House) in the Kennedy family, and the challenge of providing stability and identity for her children amid multiple, high-profile legacies.
• Her intention in raising her own family was to prioritize love for who they are, not just accomplishments:
  “I wanted the house not to be a place where there were fundraisers and political things. I wanted it to be a place of home.” ([07:17], Maria)
• Distinguishing between “making a legacy” (her husband Arnold) and “inheriting a legacy” (herself), and the added layer of expectations that entails.

3. The Universal Struggle for Identity

[10:31 – 14:49]

• Both Simon and Maria reflect on how people, no matter their background, grapple with identity—often defining themselves by occupation or familial role.
• Maria shares the origin of her book's title, I Am Maria:
  “I grew up being asked all the time, which Kennedy are you?... and I still get it today. Like, if I'm walking through the airport... you're a Kennedy, right? And I used to just be like, no, I'm not. I'm Maria.” ([12:29], Maria)
• The liberating power of claiming one’s name and self, beyond roles or surnames.

4. Deepening Connection: Defining the Self

[14:50 – 16:15]

• Simon prompts Maria: “Who is Maria? Without saying mother, you know, journalist.”
• Maria offers a vulnerable self-portrait beyond titles:
  “I'm a woman. I'm a monastic, spiritual, loving, kind, fun, funny, artistic, deep, I think wise, broken, scared, strong, vulnerable, 69 year old woman. Yeah, that's who I am.” ([13:19], Maria)
• The conversation underscores the richness that emerges when people share who they are, rather than simply ‘what they do.’

5. Poetry as Conversation

[16:15 – 17:24]

• Simon notices the poetic cadence in Maria’s speech and writing; Maria’s daughter calls it “reporter poetry.”
• Maria describes how her poetry and reflective writing helped her process heartbreak, loneliness, and the work of healing:
  “It’s a revelation to me to discover my own heartbreak and to find connection in other people's heartbreak... and the strength that is required to actually heal… I now look at it as the most successful thing we can do.” ([16:27], Maria)

6. Vulnerability, Loss, and Rebuilding

[17:24 – 19:53]

• Maria traces her journey into vulnerability:
  “Certainly, you know, kind of my divorce... landed me on the floor, and I had to kind of go like, whoa, you know, what is this?... I want to get up from this, but I'm going to get up differently.” ([17:38], Maria)
• The compounding losses of her mother, uncle, father, and marriage within two years forced an identity reset.
• Letting go of external identities (First Lady, journalist) to rediscover her core self.

7. “Doing the Work” — Alone or in Community?

[19:53 – 21:46]

• Maria and Simon discuss whether one must “do the work” of self-discovery alone. Maria describes her process as a blend:
  “I’ve done the work in community, I would say... I went and did alone work with a therapist, with shamans... But I did the work or the silence in community.” ([20:11], Maria)

8. The Eight Minutes of Friendship

[21:46 – 23:06]

• The “eight minutes” concept: Maria read an article stating all a friend needs is eight minutes in times of distress; she and Simon now use this as their signal for support.
• The real value of friendship:
  “Those are the things that are going to be with us till the end. That's what's important.” ([21:46], Maria)

9. Friendship as a Life Foundation

[23:06 – 27:06]

• They reflect on how their friendship, and Maria’s home, provide a container for people to be wholly themselves, free of public persona or professional expectations.
• Maria’s children were unaware of Simon’s public achievements—they simply knew him as their mom’s friend.
• Simon: “Which is everybody can just be themselves. It's the container you create.” ([25:21], Simon)
• Importance of designing this “container” for friends, not just romantic partners or family.

10. The Container: Safe Spaces for Authenticity

[27:06 – 29:19]

• Simon conceptualizes the friendship “container” as the safe environment for authentic self-expression, contrasting it with societal expectations.
• He notes, even in a world of norms, we need places where we can “let those things out.”
  “And those safe spaces are those safe containers with those friends.” ([28:10], Simon)

11. What Makes a Meaningful Life

[29:19 – 32:01]

• Maria redefines success as a meaningful life—not just successful work. She prioritizes faith, evolving relationships with adult children, and cultivating a home that endures beyond career milestones.
• She shares a friendship exercise—adapted from a couples’ test—where friends ask each other deep, intentional questions to strengthen the bond.

12. Curiosity, Friendship, and the Work of Connection

[32:01 – 34:40]

• Simon and Maria agree that the social rituals to foster closeness in romance and at work (love languages, feedback) should also apply to friendships.
• Maria’s innate curiosity, a hallmark of her personality and journalism, extends to all—baristas, valets, and especially friends.
  “Your love language. It's… interesting to me as your friend. So why is it only that a romantic partner gets to ask, ‘what's your love language’?” ([32:27], Maria)

13. Redefining Success: Home Over Achievement

[34:40 – 38:08]

• Maria’s definition of success emphasizes human connection:
  “Having time to spend with people that I love, that I adore, that make me feel home... this book is really about making the way through heartbreak that is inevitable... and then finding your way back to home.” ([34:41], Maria)
• She shares the pain of job loss and the realization that one's workplace is never truly “home.”
• “I made a big mistake. I thought this job was my home.” ([36:21], Maria)
• The most enduring "home" is the one built with friends and family, not career.

14. Maria Shares Her Poem, “Small”

[38:08 – 42:03]

• Maria reads the moving poem “Small,” reflecting on growing up in a family of “big” personalities and seeking validation by trying to be “big” herself.
• The realization that embracing her “smallness,” and the “small” in others—especially her mother—leads to empathy, healing, and self-acceptance.
• “I don't try to be big anymore. And I don't try to be small. I just try to be. I am.” ([42:03], Maria)

15. Closing Reflections

[42:03 – 43:27]

• Simon expresses his gratitude: “That book is a gift. It's a gift to the world. It really is.” ([42:03], Simon)
• Maria shares more on encouraging readers to ask themselves deep questions, to engage in self-inquiry, and to be “miracle minded.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If who Patrick is is any statement about what kind of mother you are, you must be an amazing human being, because he's an amazing kid.” ([02:00], Simon)
• “I wanted [my children] to feel like they were their own people. I didn't want them to feel weighed down by [the Kennedy/Shriver/Schwarzenegger legacies].” ([09:01], Maria)
• “Our surnames are predefined for us... our jobs are not ours... but our name, as you said, it's the only thing that really is us.” ([12:53], Simon)
• “I'm a woman. I'm a monastic, spiritual, loving, kind, fun, funny, artistic, deep, I think wise, broken, scared, strong, vulnerable, 69 year old woman.” ([13:19], Maria)
• “It's a revelation to me to discover my own heartbreak and to find connection in other people's heartbreak... I now look at it as the most successful thing we can do.” ([16:27], Maria)
• “You have eight minutes? We have eight.” ([22:15], Maria & Simon, on supporting friends)
• "The friend is the foundation of all those other things... relationships sometimes are a struggle. And the way you get through is if you have a friend." ([27:12], Simon)
• “When I write on the COVID of this book, finding our way home, I want to have a conversation about the home within the home that we create with our friends and our family and our loved ones. It's not a home that a job gives to us. It's a home we create.” ([37:32], Maria)
• From Maria’s poem “Small”: “I don't try to be big anymore. And I don't try to be small. I just try to be. I am.” ([42:03], Maria)

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Key Takeaways

• True identity is wrested from societal, professional, and family labels through conscious self-acceptance and reflection.
• Friendship and belonging form the foundation for a “successful” life, beyond career or status.
• Vulnerability, heartbreak, and healing are universal experiences. The work of living a meaningful life happens best in trusted company (“safe containers”).
• Curiosity and intentional questions are not just for romantic partners or work colleagues—they're essential to cultivating deep, lasting friendships.
• Making “home” in oneself and in the hearts of others is the lasting legacy worth cultivating.

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Suggested Listening Order for Key Segments

• Friendship Origin Story ([00:00–05:30])
• Legacy & Identity in Famous Families ([05:32–10:30])
• Claiming Your Name & Identity ([12:29–14:49])
• Vulnerability and the Process of Healing ([16:27–19:53])
• Eight Minutes of Friendship ([21:46–23:06])
• Container for Authenticity ([25:21–29:19])
• The Poem “Small” and Its Lessons ([38:08–42:03])

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This episode offers an honest, profound meditation on who we really are—and how friendship, curiosity, and a willingness to be seen and to see others make life truly rich and optimistic.

Transcript

[A]

You and I actually don't talk on the phone that much.

[B]

No, we text, but you don't ever pick up the phone. That cat picture comes up and I call and, like, there's the cat.

[A]

It's because it's not. It's not personal. It's because my phone's always on. Do not disturb when I see you. Call it always. We all know people with big personalities, but we would rarely call them kind. We also know people with small personalities, and they are usually the kindest. But every now and then, there's a big personality, a huge personality that shows up, that just exudes kindness and warmth. And one of those people is Maria Shriver. I had the opportunity to sit down with Maria to talk about her new book, I Am Maria. Maria is my best friend, and to hear her talk about the journey she is on to reclaim her own identity is nothing short of. Of inspiring. And that little question I am and what it yields turns out has great value to all of us to find out who we really are and why we love ourselves. I am Simon, and this is a bit of optimism. So yours and my friendship. I think most people, including me, would not have predicted we met kind of by accident.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Right. I don't know how you tell the story, but I can. I know. So that you reached out to me many years ago.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I don't know, to this day, I've never asked you how you got my email, but you reached out to me out of the blue and said, my son Patrick is a young entrepreneur. You know, if you're ever in la, would you like to meet him? And I said, of course. And I came to LA and I met Patrick and he and I had a lovely time. When I got back to New York, you sent me a lovely email saying thank you. And I wrote back and saying the pleasure was all mine. And if who Patrick is is any statement about what kind of mother you are, you must be an amazing human being, because he's an amazing kid.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I said, I would love to meet you. So next time in la, I'll come out and see you. And I come back to LA for work, and you said, come for dinner on Sunday. And I thought it would be you, me and Patrick having dinner at your house. That's what I thought. I walk into the house and there's some folks getting dinner ready and you're not around.

[B]

Yeah, that's kind of normal.

[A]

That's kind of normal. And so I'm. I'm stranger in a strange land and I said, is Maria here?

[B]

Right?

[A]

And they said, she's downstairs. And I said, where's downstairs? I went down and sitting on the couch was Chris Pratt. And I had no idea he was your son in law at the time. So I'm like, okay, hi. He's like, hi, I'm Chris. You know, hi, I'm Simon. Where's Maria? Anyway, long story short, it was the start of what became now an amazing friendship. And you're. You're my best friend. If I say one of my best friends, I get in trouble. You're my best friend. And it is a joy to have you here, talking to you very formally. It's weird. This whole thing is weird.

[B]

I tell the story. Well, I actually don't tell the story. I just say, like, you're my bestie. And that's exactly how it happened. And you walked into a family dinner on Sunday night, which was packed and overwhelming. It was.

[A]

I mean, no, no meaning. The personalities, they are. I mean, there's a lot of big personalities at the table.

[B]

Yeah, there's a lot of big personalities at the table. But you held your own. And you got into a, like a big discussion with my brother Bobby. And then Chris, and everybody was talking, and then you stood in the door. You're like, that was fun. And I'm like, he's fun, he's smart, he's fun. I'm going to pursue him. And then we walked and we talked our way through years.

[A]

We covered years.

[B]

We covered years in weeks.

[A]

We pioneered the long distance walk. It was very early in Covid where we said, I think we can go outside. I think if we stay very far apart from each other. And we just started walking. And we did it every single week.

[B]

Yeah. For really long periods. And we talked about everything. We talked about everything. And it was so intimate and deep and meaningful and bonding. And it was so rewarding for me because those are the kinds of conversations I like to have. These are the kinds of relationships I like to have. But what I think, what. So that wasn't unexpected to me to, you know, fall in love with you and to have this relationship with you. But what was so beautiful, or what is so beautiful is that you develop that with each of my kids and my brothers and my son in law. And you, you took the time to figure out who each person was and you have a different relationship with each of them, which is so beautiful. And so few people do that, I think. And my kids often say that to me. You know, they'll meet somebody 10 and they'll go, oh, hey, your name is, or what? And you know what their interests are, what makes them laugh. They know you. You talk to them individually, you make an effort. And so you have this relationship with my whole family, with my brothers. And so I think that's such a gift in my life. And it's a gift in their life. So you're in it.

[A]

You're being very kind and thank you very much.

[B]

That's true. Thank you.

[A]

A good transition. It's a good segue, which is

[B]

you

[A]

grew up in an insane. For you, it was normal. As a little kid, you didn't know any different. But visiting Uncle Jack at the White House is what an eight year old, nine year old, you know, this sort of larger than life, the Kennedy Shriver family. As you became older and you started to realize that your life is not like everybody else's life, how did you learn to manage that? And more importantly, kids growing up now in the Kennedy Shriver clan, and now you add a Schwarzenegger to it, how did you keep them grounded? I'm so curious because I've met a lot of kids of people who've grown up in different ways and maybe they get lucky with one of the kids staying grounded, but not all the kids.

[B]

I'd probably take it from kind of my own creation of my own kids and go backwards. So what I wanted to do when I started a family was to make sure that the kids that Arnold and I had felt like they were a priority, felt that they were loved for who they were, not for what they did. And that they had a sense of home, a sense of calm, a sense of peace, that they understood that they were coming into a privileged home, but that their part of that was also that I and their dad expected them to be of service somehow in the world. Those were my goals and that they have manners and they be kind and I really wanted them being a priority. And feeling loved was the most important thing to me because I had felt like I was part of this, you know, group of like 27 first cousins. And I, I felt like, you know, I was always a couple rows back. Like I just, it wasn't really clear. You know, I knew my uncles were in the front row and everything was geared around them and we were all part of a larger story. But I didn't feel like, you know, a priority. And I felt like, oh, the love was attached to what you do. This is not a complaint to my parents. I adore my parents. I love my parents, but it's the way they were raised, and it was the way I was raised, and I wanted to break that pattern. So I wanted the house not to be a place where there were fundraisers and political things. I wanted it to be a place of home. I wanted them to understand that their names and who they were was more important than the Kennedys, the Schwarzeneggers, the Shrivers and all of that. And I wanted to talk to them at length about that, about what those legacies were. They were not theirs to work, you know, uphold for the rest of their life if they didn't want to. That there was good things and bad things about all of them and that, you know, that they were free to depart from them in whatever way they wanted. I also did not feel that. I think it's also different when someone is making a legacy versus inheriting a legacy.

[A]

Is this a conversation that you and Arnold had when you first got pregnant with Catherine?

[B]

You're like, well, I think Arnold was creating his legacy. He had not ever grown up in a legacy. Right. And so that was something that I came to the union with. I came with like, look at the. These kids are going to be dealing with me, the Kennedys and you. He didn't have an experience with that, so he was like, okay, well, you deal with that, you know, kind of thing.

[A]

But you were very prescriptive.

[B]

I was very, yes. I was very. Like, I wanted these things for them. You know, I wanted them to feel like they were their own people. I didn't want them to feel weighed down by it. I didn't want them to walk out the door and think every person was a vote. Like, I'd walk with my grandmother and she would be like, every person's a vote. Everybody we walk by, we stop, we say hello, we smile, we keep walking, we stop, we say hello, we smile, like, oi. But I didn't want.

[A]

So family was. Was being. Having that Kennedy Shriver name was. That was a job.

[B]

Oh, it was. It was like, a lot.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, it was a lot of joy, a lot of advantages, a lot of work, but it was, you know, I definitely felt like, okay, we were on a stage, we had a job to do. I was a player in some larger show. I wasn't quite sure what the show show was. And I think for much of my life, I was trying to get out of that show. I think that's why I went into journalism. It's why I moved to California. Trying to kind of figure out, well, who was I in all of this? And then, you know, Be able to go back home and understand who I was in the larger storyline. And I think this is something that every kid probably deals with. Right. You know, every person is trying to figure out who they are, no matter what their family is and where is home for them and, you know, what role are they playing. And I think it's. It's emphasized when you're dealing with a legacy.

[A]

I think what you're touching on is every single one of us, at some point in our lives and sometimes multiple times, will struggle with our identities.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And it's not unique to somebody who's grown up like you have. You know, people will confuse their identities with their job title.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

I am a CEO or their. Or their career. I am a lawyer. Like, that's who I am. No, no, it's. You do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or it's the position you have. And I've seen it. You've seen it many times, which is you. Very successful people, when they move on or they change jobs, they literally will suffer an identity crisis because for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, their whole identity has entwined with a job or a position that when that job or position no longer exists, it's depression or collapse or strange things start to happen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, you know, but even beyond. I am a mother, I hear people say that, tell me who you are. Well, I'm a mother or I'm a father, but even that's not an identity.

[B]

Well, I think. But I think society puts a lot of pressure on you to respond in that way. People ask you, like, I went to a party the other night with my daughter, and first question to her every single time was, tell me what you do. Tell me what you do. What is your interest? What do you do? And not who you are and not even, like, what your name is. Tell me what you do. And I think, you know this book, I called it I Am Maria, because I grew up being asked all the time, which Kennedy are you? That was just, you know, the question I got more than any single other question, which Kennedy are you? And I still get it today. Like, if I'm walking through the airport or, you know, somebody will say, you're a Kennedy. Right. And I used to just be like, no, I'm not. I'm Maria. And they would be like, but you're a Kennedy. Even as an adult. And now I just go, yeah, I'm a Kennedy. Yeah. It's like I'm in my 60s. 60s. Right. So. But I think it's. So I understand. So I often find people Come up to me and say, I'm just this, that or the other. And I always try to say, well, what's your name? Yeah, who are you? Tell me about yourself. So that's why I wanted to call this I am is very spiritual to me. It's a, it's kind of has a religious feeling to it, but it's owning your name, you know, your parents give you your name and it's claiming this is I am, this is who I am. It's claiming the identity. Right, right.

[A]

Because our surnames are predefined for us and we're part of that legacy, whatever that is. There's at least a lineage. Our jobs are not ours, you know, but our name, as you said, like it's the only thing that really is, is us.

[B]

Right? And it's claiming that over and over. Right? It's claiming I am this person. And then it's like, well, tell me who is that person?

[A]

So who is Maria? Without saying mother, you know, journalist.

[B]

Like that's been a lifetime to figure that out. And that's what this book is really about. Who is Maria? So, well, if I were, I am Maria. I'm a woman. I'm a monastic, spiritual, loving, kind, fun, funny, artistic, deep, I think wise, broken, scared, strong, vulnerable, 69 year old woman. Yeah, that's who I am. And I have had the joy to be able to have been a mother. And I am a mother, I have been a wife, I have been a daughter. I am a daughter even though my parents are deceased. I am a sister, I'm an aunt. But these are all titles that, you know, kind of society puts on you. I try to be a loving, a supportive family member. That means I'm an aunt, a sister, a mom.

[A]

I love the redirect, you know, when somebody says, so what do you do? Instead of making. Pushing back against the question. It's, it's a, it's an honest question to simply say, let me tell you who I am.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Just to simply. Redirect.

[B]

Yeah, redirect.

[A]

What do you do? Well, let me tell you who I am.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And to say that list, you know, that that is how we feel and all of the things that go along with it, it's, I mean, I know you really well, but just to hear you say all that word, all those words together, it's, it's arresting because we see ourselves in some of that and we find connection in some of that.

[B]

Yeah, well, I hope, I hope, because that is for me the best way to form connection. When somebody Says, you know, I am insecure, I am scared. And then I go, talk to me about that. I also feel insecure. I also doubt myself. I also feel vulnerable. I also feel tender. Tell me how you feel. Do you ever feel strong? Do you ever feel old? Do you feel young? Talk to me about that instead of. Tell me about your job at the law firm. And, I mean, I can get to all of that, but. But who you are. Is how I connect to you more interesting? It's way more interesting. And people often find it. They're surprised that you're interested in who they are and not what they do.

[A]

Some of these poems, reading them, which surprised me was, it's how you talk. I didn't even connect that. But you speak in poems. You speak like this, like when you and I are having a conversation, even now, talking to you. You know, if I were to write some of these lines down, the repetition and some of the reinforcements, and tell me who you. I mean, it's. I'm. It's. I'm just like. If you read this, then you know what it's like to hang out.

[B]

That's a great compliment, because it is a good compliment. Yeah. This.

[A]

It's a very real. It's. It. You didn't. It's.

[B]

It's. Christina calls it reporter poetry. You know, that I said, I'm reporting from the front lines. It's kind of. It's. You know, the first part of the book is reflections on life and kind of identity and trying to figure out what.

[A]

But it's how you think.

[B]

It's how I think. It's how I think, and it's giving a kind of framework to how I think, how I visualize, and how I visualize my way forward. And it's a revelation to me to discover my own heartbreak and to find connection in other people's heartbreak. It's a revelation to me to discover my own loneliness and to find connection with other people with their loneliness. To talk about, what does home mean? Where is home? To talk about healing and the strength that is required to actually heal, to heal patterns, to heal family dramas that have gone through generations. This is not work that I thought of when I was a kid or a young woman as hard work or as successful work. And I now look at it as the most successful thing we can do.

[A]

Did you have to learn to be vulnerable?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, is it like.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

The past five years, the past 10 years, the past 20 years? Like, I mean, it's kind. I know it's a journey but, like, there has to been a point where something clicked.

[B]

Well, I think certainly, you know, kind of my divorce, I think, you know, landed me on the floor, and I had to kind of go like, whoa, you know, what is this? And I want to get up from this, but I'm going to get up differently. And I think that has certainly, you know, set me off onto a different path. I think it really probably began way before that with my mother's death.

[A]

How old were you when she died?

[B]

I was in my 50s, so she died and. But that was something I had feared my whole life because she'd been sick a lot. But she was my, you know, anchor. She was my everything. And it was something that I thought, like, I'll never be able to survive my mother's death. And I think when she died, it was a soul shifting experience for me. It was an identity shifting experience for me. And it was quickly followed by my father's death, by the end of my marriage, by finding a new home, and then a search for a new identity.

[A]

That all happened within a short time.

[B]

It all happened within two years.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And then, you know, then it's been all of these many years later. Yeah, my mother died. Two weeks later, my uncle died. Two years later, my father died. And a couple months after that, I got separated and I had been first lady. And that ended. So it was a rapid succession of really groundbreaking change underneath my feet. And I think, you know, for me to step back and go, okay, wait a second now. I need to emerge from this. I need to rise from this. I always talk about rising above the noise. I need to rise, and I'm going to rise differently. I have to rise differently. I have to break through, as I write in the book, the denial that I had had since I was a child. I had to break through the identities that I had kind of hid behind, you know, and that had given me cover, that had given me protection, and I now knew I was on my own, 100% on my own. So who was that person? She wasn't the first lady anymore. Was I still a journalist? I don't know. What was I? Who was I going to be?

[A]

People always talk about, you know, the importance of doing the work. I'm doing the work. That person, they need to do the work. You know, in relationships, I wish my partner would do the work. I'm helping them do the work. You know, I'm so fascinated by the relationship of, quote, unquote, doing the work alone versus needing the support of others to do that is it possible to do the work alone of finding oneself?

[B]

Well, I've been. I've done the work in community, I would say, because I had, as I wrote in the book I write about kind of having a masterclass in friendship. People held my hand, they walked with me, they talked with me, they sat with me. But I went and did alone work with a therapist, with shamans, with journeys. I went away on my own. I went to a convent on my own. But I did the work or the silence in community. So I don't see that I did it alone. I wasn't in a relationship doing it. But I don't think anybody really, quote, does it alone.

[A]

Okay. I'll just say. I'll say from a personal point of view, which is, I know that I'm a better version of myself. I know that I'm more comfortable being vulnerable. I know that I am taking myself on and away because I wouldn't be able to get away with. Not because of our friendship. That's what I mean.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And to be your friend means you sign up for all of it. There's the fun, there's the laughs, there's the family. But there's also, like, the conversations about, you know, loneliness or adhd. They come out relatively effortlessly now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In company.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Not alone.

[B]

Yeah. At the end of the day, what Jobs come and go, but if we work on our friendships, if we laugh with our friends, if we love our friends, if we show up for our friends, if we give them the eight minutes in those moments of like, I need. I need you on the phone. Are you there? Right. Those are the things that are going to be with us till the end. That's what's important.

[A]

And for those who may know of that video that I made where I talked about the eight minutes, it was you and me. It was you and me. That was our experience where I asked you how you were and you said, I'm better now. And I said, what do you mean you're better now? And you're like, I've had a horrible week. I'm like, why didn't you call me? And you're like, I did. And I look at my text and says, you. You there? What are you doing? What?

[B]

I'm like, yeah.

[A]

And it was that you. You were the one who read the article that said, all a friend needs is eight minutes.

[B]

And so now if we need each other, I like, you have eight minutes.

[A]

We have eight.

[B]

Do you have eight minutes?

[A]

You were the og?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For that. For that experience. Yeah.

[B]

You know you were saying, actually last night that you forget to call people, you forget to check in. That that happens with your parents. And I went to bed thinking, well, that's not my experience with you. Actually, you do check in. You do call, you do go. Like, I'm driving by. I want to. You sometimes check in. And I walk in, and I haven't even invited you. You're like, in the pantry. And I'm like, simon, what are you doing? He's like, I came in to get a marsh bar. I gave it again. I'm like, what? What? But you. You are like.

[A]

That happened once. You came downstairs and I was in the pantry. That is the truth. Yeah.

[B]

That's what my kids. All there is is Simon in the pantry. I was like, no, Simon's not here tonight. But. But I think that that's what makes my life joyful. That's what makes my life joyful. Yeah.

[A]

You and I actually don't talk on the phone that much.

[B]

No. We text, but you don't ever pick up the phone. That cat picture comes up, and I call, and, like, there's the cat.

[A]

It's because it's not. It's not personal. It's because my phone's always on. Do not disturb. And when I see you, call it always. But you and I. But the point is, is, like, we actually. Like when you and I are traveling, we actually don't talk that much. I think the thing is that the time when we have time together is so intense and so cherished that I don't think we realize that we actually don't talk so much in the gaps.

[B]

Well, maybe I'm talking to you in my head, but I think, you know, it's. It's. I've watched you.

[A]

I'm getting credit for it. Then continue with that.

[B]

But you know what's amazing to me is I've watched you evolve. I've watched you from what to what? You've become way more open and vulnerable. You've become way more open about how you feel. You know, before, you were talking a lot about business and showing up and leadership, and now you talk a lot more about emotions and friendships and family. You know, things that are going on in your life, deep in your soul in a different way. And that, to me, has been a beautiful evolution to watch in you. You'll talk about, like, I'm not really sure what I want to do now or what subject I want to speak about. People all want to come up to me and talk about one thing. You know, your version of the Kennedy thing is that everybody wants, you know, can you help me with my why? Can you help me with my why? And there's probably nobody saying how are you. Just help me with my why? Can you fix that for me or find it for me or. And I see that with people, you know, in life, that people get really well known for something or get really successful and that, you know, we. We lose sight of. Like, well, actually, how are you? Are you dealing with any heartbreak? Are you dealing with any loneliness? Do you have friends that can help you? And those are the conversations that I'm interested in. I'm interested in your heartbreak.

[A]

This is what it means to be your friend, which is you don't care. We've never talked about. We rarely talk about work. Yeah. And you're only interested in me as a human being.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which is probably the. The. One of the reasons it's nice to come over.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is. Which is everybody can just be. Be themselves. It's the. It's. It's the container you. You create to the point where, like, your kids had no idea. Like, we were out with Christina, and she had no idea that, like, I did work. Anything other than I was just somebody who came over.

[B]

Yeah. Christopher was like, I didn't even know that Simon, like, had a book or did a thing, you know, that was so funny because. No, what was really funny is when we went to Special Olympics in Berlin.

[A]

Berlin.

[B]

And we went out. We were in a coffee shop with Simon.

[A]

You mean Christina.

[B]

Yeah, my daughter Christina. And people started coming up asking Simon for pictures. And we were like, what. What's going on? Why is everybody asking Simon for his picture? And he's like, I'm famous, you guys. You may not say that.

[A]

I didn't say that. But Christina was genuinely confused.

[B]

She was like, why does everybody want a picture with Simon? Yeah. But it was really cute. I said, you should just. Like, everybody should just walk around with Simon. And then everybody stops and wants to have a picture with Simon. But it was. That was really funny. Yeah.

[A]

But I'll take.

[B]

Christopher was like, I didn't even know Simon, like, did anything. This is the thing.

[A]

Which is I'm invited into your home.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As me.

[B]

As you.

[A]

Not as somebody who's done something. And that's the thing. Which is, this is Simon. He's my friend. Is how I get introduced to your kids.

[B]

Exactly right.

[A]

And so they set to get to know me as friend of their mom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As opposed to somebody who did something. And I.

[B]

And now they're Friends, they introduce you. This is my friend, right?

[A]

And I think that the thing that I'm walking away from here, which is this idea of creating the container, which is, which is. I think we have fun with our friends and some.

[B]

I love that way you put that. The container. The container, yeah, because I call it home for me.

[A]

But creating a container actually requires work and you touched upon it before, which is people prioritize work over their friends, right? People think their relationships are sometimes more important than their friends. What I'm learning is that you can't get through this difficult thing called work without a friend. On the worst days, you better have a friend. And even your relationships, relationships sometimes are a struggle. And the way you get through relationships and arguments with your romantic partner is if you have a friend, like the friend is the foundation of the success of all those other things. And if you don't have a friend that can create, who knows how to create safe containers for you to have those very uncomfortable, difficult conversations of insecurity, fear, self doubt, whether it's professional or personal, then the relationships, romantic relationships and work relationships are more likely to falter. There's so many, so much talk and so much written about how to be productive at work and how to have a successful marriage and how to find your partner of love. And yet we don't learn how to create a container for our friends to just relax and be themselves and being your true self. I actually was thinking about this recently, which is the idea that we have fully authentic and fully our true selves in the outside world. And that's actually not allowed because if everybody was fully themselves all the time, sort of things wouldn't work because there's been no norms or standards. Like, like if I go for a job interview and I'm an entry level, you know, well, my, my true self is I like to wear, I'd like to dress like a surfer. It's how I feel. No, no, no, no. Show respect for the place you're going to and look a little nicer, right? It's not the time and place. You can add flourishes for sure. And nobody's telling you to suppress yourself, but the idea of being fully realized at every moment. There are standards and norms that make polite society work. But that's not to say you shouldn't have a safe space to let those things out. And those safe spaces are those safe containers with those friends. Just like, I don't want to be professional at home, I don't want to be fully personal at work, but I do need to do both. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah. And I think there's so much emphasize in our culture about success at work and that that is the be all, end all. And I think that you're beginning to see people thinking about what actually is a successful life. What is a. I call it a meaningful life, a life worth living. Marislav Volf calls it, you know, a life worth living. What will, you know, I look back on if I'm 80 or 90, what will be the kind of verticals of a life well lived? Right. And work is a, has a place in there, but it's not your whole life. Right. And so how do we cultivate friendships? How do we cultivate a life of faith, for example? For me, that was super important. How do we learn to communicate with our children as they become adults? I'm doing a whole different kind of mothering today than I did when I had toddlers or teenagers or college age children. Right now I'm in a different place and space. I'm creating a different container than I did when my kids were growing up. How, if I'm divorced, how do I create a container where both of my kids, parents can coexist, can exhibit love, can exhibit friendship, can make everybody feel at peace? That's my job now. How do I live a life where I feel when I'm on my deathbed that I look back and go, you know, I worked out what I needed to work out, I healed what I needed to heal. I had all these experiences of joy and heartbreak and success and failure. And that's what a life offers to us. And I went for it in all those areas. That's what I'm interested in. And, and that to me is success. You know, my friend Sean, he and I, he was telling me about a test that he did with his partner, his husband, and I said, can you do it with me? Because I don't have a partner, so I want to do it. He said, well, it's the same. It's the exact same thing. Just the only difference is one relationship involves a sexual relationship, but a friendship can ask the same questions. And the questions were, you know, what do you like about this relationship? What do you want me to do better? What do you notice about how I've grown? What do you notice about, you know, how I'm living my life? How could I. Here are five things you may not know about me. Tell me five things I don't know about you. Tell me what you're afraid of. And these things opened up a whole new Area of conversation. So I try to do that sort of thing. So.

[A]

Good. But I love this exercise of going through these questions that are. Again, we develop these systems to help romantic partners.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Don't develop these systems to help friends. And simply to have a card where you take the time to sit down with someone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And say, let's do this. By the way, romantic couples do this. We do this. And we have review sessions at work. We have feedback sessions at work. Where we learn about each other from a work context.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

We don't do this as friends. We don't do the work of friendship.

[B]

Yeah. So, like, your love language. It's. That's interesting to me as your friend. So why is it only that a romantic partner gets to ask, what's your love language? Or.

[A]

And that it's. And it's allowed to change.

[B]

Yes, it's allowed. Or, you know, there's that New York Times 36 questions. And. But it's for people who want to fall in love with the person they're asking the question. But those questions are really cool to ask anybody.

[A]

Fall in love with a friend. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Fall in love with a friend or understand who. Who. If you could have dinner with one person from history, who would it be? Like, why do you have to ask that to somebody you want to fall in love with? Why can't you just ask that to anybody?

[A]

It goes back to that service component. Right. Which is if you want that safe container, then offer it to someone first.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, if you want someone to be curious about you, then be curious about them first.

[B]

Yeah, well, curiosity is my. Not my superpower, but I've always, since I was little, been curious, which is why journalism was so great for me, because I'm always like, why. Why are you here? Where are you going? You know, that was always my jam. My kids are always like, could you please not, you know, talk to the waiter all the time? Could you please not talk to the valet guy? Because now we're like, 20 minutes later. Could you please stop talking to the barista? But I find, you know, I find it so interesting to talk to the baristas to why she has blue hair. You know, Christopher, who. My youngest son, you know, he's always like, just, I see that the woman has blue. Do not ask her why she has blue hair. I go, well, people have blue hair want to be asked why they have blue hair. He goes, she does not. It's like, how do you know? You don't know. But anyway, it's like, because he's always like. Like this, you know, with it. So it's so funny because each kid is different, you know, but. So when I'm with him, I try not to be curious, not to be as curious, just because I can see he's. He's as embarrassed as he could get by me sometimes.

[A]

But I think this is the point, which is you have a curiosity about your friends.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That a lot of people have for strangers.

[B]

For me, when I think about, like, what makes. You know, we talk so much about success and we talk about presenting ourselves as success and all of these things. This is success.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Having time to spend with people that I love, that I adore, that make me feel home. You know, this book is really about making the way through heartbreak that is inevitable in everybody's life. Doing the work of healing that is a choice. And then finding your way back to home. Home. You know, you're home to me. I'm at home in me. Why does everybody tell us we're here to be on the COVID of Forbes? Why does everybody tell us we're here to be the CEO and have no time for our family or our friends? Why does the world tell us to run around like a lunatic and at the expense of everything that's important? Why does the world or society or our culture or the press tell us it's this when it's this?

[A]

Yeah. We're all obsessed with productivity and metrics and measuring and sleep apps and.

[B]

And this goes like that, right? I've been fired from a job. And then you're sitting there going, like, what? What? What? I thought that was my, quote, home. I remember when I was fired from the CBS Morning News. I was the anchor with Forrest Sawyer, and. And the. The president of the news division fired all of us overnight. And I was like, wait, what? And he's like, the show's gone. I'm moving it to the entertainment division, out of the news division. You all can go look for other jobs, and you can stay here if you want and go work in another division. And I was just like, like, but this is my home. They're like, it's not your home. And I'm like, it's not. They're like, no. And I was like, oh, oh, okay.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I made a big mistake. I thought this job was my home.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I picked up my bags, walked out the revolving door at CBS News and said, I'm never coming home again. So there's. But. And then I walked down the street, went over to NBC News. Right. But I didn't make the same mistake at NBC News that I made at CBS News. I didn't think I was going to go and get a new home. Yeah. I thought I was going to get a new job. Hopefully I'd meet some people that could make me feel like I'd had. And I have. I've made relationships there outside of the building so that when they fire me or tell me, like when I became first lady and they called me and said, you're out. And I'm like, wait a minute. What? They're like, you can't work here anymore if you have a husband who's a governor. It's a conflict of interest. Bye. Bye. I didn't have the same meltdown that I had when I was at CBS because I knew I wasn't being kicked out of my home. I was losing a job.

[A]

And it goes back to identity again. Right. Because when we lose our jobs, we think they're taking away our identity.

[B]

Well, they're taking away our finances. They're taking away stability. They're taking away stability. They're taking away identity.

[A]

Still traumatic.

[B]

Oh, still. They're taking away where you go every day. They're taking away routine, everything. And so it's a lot to lose your job. When I was fired from cbs, I was stunned, but I made a mistake thinking that as I said that that was my home. So when I write on the COVID of this book, finding our way home, I want to have a conversation about the home within the home that we create with our friends and our family and our loved ones. It's not a home that a job gives to us. It's a home we create.

[A]

My reflections and poems on heartbreak, healing and finding your way home.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. Do you have a favorite poem in here?

[B]

That's a good question. No, I. I think for me, maybe small is a. It's in the beginning. Is that I. I think another thing that society does to us is tells us you're small, you're big. You're a winner, You're a loser. Puts these.

[A]

That's good. I read it. It's going to just sound like you speaking.

[B]

I feel so small. I always have. So small in a house where everything was so big. So small that I got lost. Did you notice that I was small? Did you notice I couldn't reach? Did you notice I was scared? No, of course you didn't. Your door was shut. Your eyes were closed. Your heart, I couldn't find it, couldn't touch it, couldn't reach too. Was lost, deeply buried in A dark place. I couldn't reach it. I tried all different ways to grow big. Big was what you noticed. Big was what you liked. Big was what I tried to be. I grew up. I grew out. I tried on big, but it never fit. Big was an illusion. Big enough was unattainable. I was too small to be big enough. There were so many bigs in my house. So I left. I found another place to try on big. But I was small there, too. I couldn't reach the lights. I couldn't touch what I wanted to touch. And so I gave up. I made peace with being small. I gave up trying to be big. I decided it hurt too much. I changed my mind about big. And when I did, I found your big heart in that small little room you hid in. My big heart loves your small little self. I wish you'd known how big you already were. When I read this, I think about my mom, who was so big to me, but she didn't realize how big she was because she was surrounded by. By brothers who society told her were bigger than her and who were so big. Yeah. It was just. They were so big that everybody was looking up here. So she couldn't see down here. Right. And she couldn't see in here because she was trying to reach that, compete with that. When I think of my mother now, I have so much empathy for her, and I have so much sadness, but really empathy for how hard she worked and how unseen she was. And that I was not able to really talk to her about her heartbreak or her healing or her way home because she had never been granted the time to have those conversations. She was in such a hurry to be big that I've had those conversations with her now in death, actually, and that she herself, you know, we all have this small little child inside of all of us. And so today I try to think about the little girl that lived in my mother. How small she was and how beautiful she was and what she was like as a little girl. And I say to her, I see you now, Mommy. I see you and you're enough. You're so big to me. And a thing I've learned in life is that people who are society, say, are so big so often don't feel that at all. And so I think it's. You know, I don't try to be big anymore. And I don't try to be small. I just try to be. I am.

[A]

That book is a gift.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

It's a gift to the world. It really is.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

The questions you ask are deep. Not difficult, but deep.

[B]

Right.

[A]

People don't have to ask the questions of themselves because you will ask them of us.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm hopeful that they will because I think so many people that I meet, or some feel like something's quite. Not like it's supposed to be, I'm stuck, or whatever it is. And I think by asking yourself, reporting in a way on yourself, I love this thing, your mind. This is called be miracle minded. And your mind wages war on your tender little heart. You know that, don't you, child? Said the voice from afar. So instead, be miracle minded. Yes, miracle minded. I like the sound of that. But just how does that work? How does miracle minded feel inside the busy mind? And. And then just go going on, like, thinking, like, is your mind busy? How can you get it to be different? Have you ever thought of yourself as miracle minded? Now people come in, they're like, oh, my God, Maria. But then they come back and go, you know, I thought about being miracle minded.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you, Joy.

[A]

Delight.

[B]

Delightful, delightful, delightful.

[A]

A Bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsey Garbinius, Phoebe Bradford and Devin Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And if you want even more cool stuff, visit SimonCinek.com thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.