The Brilliance of Boredom with creative polymath Elle Cordova

Summary

A Bit of Optimism: The Brilliance of Boredom with Elle Cordova

Host: Simon Sinek
Guest: Elle Cordova
Release Date: August 12, 2025

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1. Elle Cordova’s Unique Journey and Polymath Identity

Elle Cordova shares her unconventional career path, describing it as “an accident” that stemmed from a personal quest to reignite her lost passion (00:24). She identifies as a polymath, excelling in diverse fields such as music, poetry, and creative writing. Simon Sinek highlights Elle's multifaceted talents, emphasizing her ability to blend creativity with intellectual pursuits.

Notable Quote:
Elle Cordova (04:33): “Curiosity is sort of my motivating force in life and what I'm trying to do with the content or art or whatever that I put out on the Internet... I just hope people see that, get this little bit of resonant spark of curiosity in themselves.”

2. The Underrated Power of Boredom and Introversion

The conversation delves into the significance of boredom, especially for introverts like Elle. Contrary to popular belief, boredom serves as a fertile ground for creativity and calmness. Elle recounts how the isolation during lockdown revealed a hidden reservoir of creativity, leading to viral successes like her “font” sketch and “big bang” poem (00:43).

Notable Quote:
Simon Sinek (01:37): “Boredom is underrated. It can actually be a remarkable source of calm and creativity, which a lot of introverts may already know.”

3. Counting Cards: A Strategic Approach to Gambling

Elle discusses her foray into advantage play in Las Vegas casinos, driven by a desire to spend quality time with her mother without losing significant money. She explains the techniques of basic strategy and card counting in blackjack, emphasizing that it’s a legal edge rather than cheating (11:14).

Notable Quote:
Elle Cordova (11:14): “An advantage player has an edge. It's just using the information that's available to every player, so they can't arrest you. There's nothing illegal about it.”

4. Creativity Unleashed During the Pandemic

The pandemic-induced lockdown forced Elle to pivot from her music career to exploring other creative outlets. This period of forced inactivity became a catalyst for her transition into poetry and comedy, allowing her to reach a broader audience and rediscover her creative spirit (18:02).

Notable Quote:
Elle Cordova (18:02): “And when everything got canceled, it was such a blessing in disguise because then I rediscovered my creativity and then discovered that it was like it went beyond music.”

5. The Importance of Curiosity and Creating Space for Ideas

Simon and Elle discuss the critical role of curiosity in the creative process. Elle emphasizes the need to consume content that fuels creativity rather than distracts, advocating for intentional gaps in schedules to allow the subconscious mind to generate ideas (25:52).

Notable Quote:
Simon Sinek (28:30): “We have our best ideas when we're falling asleep or when we go for a run... it's when we're not thinking, but the brain is still ruminating in the subconscious.”

6. Mental Health: Overcoming Anxiety and Panic Disorders

Elle opens up about her struggle with anxiety and panic attacks, sharing how she has managed to control them over the years. She advocates for open discussions about mental health, balancing between preventing over-diagnosis and encouraging those with severe conditions to seek help (43:23).

Notable Quote:
Elle Cordova (43:23): “I think we could all just talk more about our mental health. If you don't, it just gets worse and then we have negative outcomes.”

7. Star Wars Archetypes: Finding Identity Through Fictional Characters

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing Star Wars characters as archetypes that help individuals understand themselves and others. Simon and Elle compare traits of characters like Han Solo, Darth Vader, and R2-D2, highlighting how these figures embody complex human behaviors and personalities.

Notable Quote:
Simon Sinek (51:08): “I think the reason Star Wars is important in the world is because the archetypes of all the characters are so true, so consistent that everybody can learn about anybody by saying, which one are you?”

8. Elle Cordova’s Musical Tribute: “Roswell”

The episode concludes with Elle performing her song “Roswell,” which narrates the infamous Roswell UFO incident. She shares the origin story of the song, detailing how a prolonged stay in Roswell due to a van breakdown inspired her creative output (59:24).

Notable Quote:
Elle Cordova (60:50): “It was a long time, and they kept saying, and Roswell's middle of nowhere, right? There's not much to do other than learn about the incident and go to the museum and all the like kitschy alien things.”

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Conclusion

In this episode of A Bit of Optimism, Simon Sinek and Elle Cordova explore the intricate balance between solitude and creativity, the strategic mind of advantage players, and the profound impact of embracing boredom. Elle’s candid discussions on mental health and her insightful reflections on popular culture through Star Wars offer listeners a blend of inspiration, knowledge, and relatable experiences. The episode culminates in a heartfelt musical performance, encapsulating the essence of finding creativity in unexpected places.

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Notable Performance: "Roswell" by Elle Cordova

Transcript excerpt:

[59:32] Elle Cordova: Back in '47 in the first week of July
There was lightning in the desert
...
[62:00] Elle Cordova: The story of Roswell. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much.

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Join Simon Sinek and Elle Cordova on this enlightening journey to discover the brilliance hidden in moments of stillness and the power of embracing one's multifaceted passions.

Transcript

[Simon Sinek]

True Classic is sponsoring today's episode Fun Story. I met Ryan, their CEO, over lunch, and I was like, I really like this guy. That's why we're proud to work with them and have them as our sponsor.

[Elle Cordova]

I've been backed off and banned from probably close to, like, six, seven casinos now in Vegas. And unfortunately, they're all my mom's favorite casino, so we can't go there anymore. She's told me to stop.

[Simon Sinek]

So I love this that all you wanted to do was be a good daughter, celebrate your mom's birthday, and now you're banned from half a dozen casinos in Las Vegas.

[Elle Cordova]

I know it's a funny turn of events, but, yeah, I blame my mom. She brought me there.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, it's always childhood trauma.

[Elle Cordova]

Exactly. I just wanted to sit with her longer and have more drinks.

[Simon Sinek]

Two introverts walk into a bar. Let's be honest, that's not happening. But here's what did happen. Two introverts sat down for a conversation about creativity and the importance of. Of boredom. Yes, boredom. It turns out boredom is underrated. It can actually be a remarkable source of calm and creativity, which a lot of introverts may already know. That was definitely the case for Elle Cordova. She's a singer, songwriter, a poet, and a certified nerd who, in the isolation of lockdown, discovered a creativity she didn't know she had the result. Well, I'm sure a lot of you have seen her sketch about fonts at a party or her poem about the big bang, both of which went very viral before the big Bang. There was no up, there was no down, there was no side to side.

[Elle Cordova]

There was no up, there was no down, there was no side to side. There was no light, there was no dark nor shape of any kind. There were no stars or planet Mars or protons to collide. There was no up, there was no down, there was no side to side. And furthermore, to underscore this total lacking state, there was no here, there was no there because there was no space. And in this endless void, which can't be thought of as a place, there was no time. And so no passing minutes, hours, days.

[Simon Sinek]

I first learned about Elle when I stumbled on her song Roswell, which, if you stick around, she plays live for us at the end of the episode. And if you're a nerd, you'll appreciate our chat about Star wars archetypes and how we need to give boredom a rebrand, which turns out isn't boring at all. This is a bit of optimism. You are a perfect Example of why it's important to meet your heroes.

[Elle Cordova]

Aw. I'm not sure if I'm taking this the right way, because, you know, they.

[Simon Sinek]

Always say, never meet your heroes because you're always disappointed. I found you and your work from music. I found your song Roswell when you had a different name. What was your name?

[Elle Cordova]

Reyna Del Sid.

[Simon Sinek]

Right. Yeah, the stage name.

[Elle Cordova]

I had a stage name.

[Simon Sinek]

You had a stage name. Then I found out that's not your name. So I knew you as a musician, started following you on the Instagram. Then I find out that you're a poet and a smart person and a nerd, and you are the personification of a polymath. I reached out to you on the Instagram, slid into your DMs. You did and said, hey, and you wrote back. And we got together and found and nerd bonded, I guess.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. Turns out you're this. You're cut from a similar nerd cloth.

[Simon Sinek]

You are even better than I thought you were when I saw you on the Internet.

[Elle Cordova]

Oh, thank you, Simon. And the same is true of you.

[Simon Sinek]

Oh, thanks. I think we can just cut right here. I think our work. Our work is done. Job well done. But, but. But going back to this idea of a polymath. A polymath is somebody who is. Has diverse interests, learned it across many things, and you have curiosities and talents in many places. You are, I think, have become famous for your poetry on social media. You've done a TED Talk about your poetry. You are a musician. You are extremely well read. You know a lot about science. You are a lover of science fiction. You seem to know not a little bit about a lot of things, but a lot about a lot of things. Intimidatingly so, I might add. Were you always like, where is that from? Like, what's your journey of. Of discovery and. And how you have so many curiosities, but also that you're good at those things. It's not just, you know, good at one thing and have a couple things on the side.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, well, I. I don't know how much is. What you just said is true.

[Simon Sinek]

All of it is true.

[Elle Cordova]

Okay, well, we'll. We'll go with your premise. I think for me, it's just I've always been a very curious person. So curiosity. And you've. You've said the word a couple times when you were speaking just there. Curiosity is like sort of my motivating force in life and what I'm trying to do with the content or art or whatever that I put out on the Internet or put out wherever for people to consume is to try to spark a little bit of the same curiosity. And I people to consume, whether it's music or poetry or just random inane thoughts that I post to the Instagram, whatever it might be. I just hope people see that, get this little bit of resonant spark of curiosity in themselves and then are either motivated to create their own thing or to look up the concept I'm talking about. And I wouldn't say I know a lot about a lot of things. I just think I've been very curious about a lot of things.

[Simon Sinek]

No more than a little.

[Elle Cordova]

Well, okay. And I've gotten to know enough about enough things that it just like keeps lighting the fire. And I always find like new things to.

[Simon Sinek]

Where did the curiosity come from? Was it nature or nurture?

[Elle Cordova]

Well, my dad is a really curious person, so he. He was like a really, like one of those guys that's like breaks teachers hearts where he. He was really smart and he would. He was curious, but he. You couldn't get him to finish an assignment or something, you know, but he would like, read on his own. He'd read the things you're not supposed to be reading about. He'd just go and check out a book about trigonometry when they're trying to teach them about, you know, algebr something. So it's like if you taught him. If you tried to teach him something, he wouldn't learn it. But if you let him loose in a place of knowledge, he will be hungry and he'll do it. So I think I got a little bit of that from him. Although I'm more of a rule follower, so I went and got the degree and everything. Less of a rebel.

[Simon Sinek]

Where'd you get your degree in?

[Elle Cordova]

I majored in English, so I got a degree in English literature from the University of Minnesota.

[Simon Sinek]

So that makes sense.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. So English, I mean, to me that's just like a gateway to books, like all kinds of books and knowledge and stories from everywhere. So it's kind of like majoring in everything.

[Simon Sinek]

And. And how did you. Because you grew up in Fargo. Yeah, grew up in Fargo, North Dakota. Shout out to Fargo.

[Elle Cordova]

Shout out to Fargo.

[Simon Sinek]

Did growing up in Fargo, it's cold, there's a lot of snow. It's not big.

[Elle Cordova]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

Did that contribute? Is that the nurture part of the curiosity? Like, it's like Perlman, for example, he has polio, so when all the other kids go out to play, he can't go out to play. So what does he do? He stays home and plays the violin, and he becomes one of the best violinists in the world.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, or like Isaac Newton, you know, coming through his breakthroughs, like, during a time of plague, because what else are you gonna do? He's like, trapped in a. Trapped in quarantine, you know.

[Simon Sinek]

Oh, right.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. Sometimes I think restrictive environments can definitely lead to, like, an expansion of mind.

[Simon Sinek]

And was that the case for you?

[Elle Cordova]

I think so. I mean, I think probably more than the cold environment. Although that was. That's definitely true of Fargo. And if you ever go there, you'll see it's like. It's not. It's just this unrelenting, bitter, bitter winds coming across the plains with nothing to stop them. And it's very, very cold. Less so now because of certain global changes that are happening. But, yeah, I think that's part of it. But I think the. Probably the bigger part is just this. Just introversion, you know, Just. I have always been so cripplingly shy, and it's just easier for me to stay in on a Friday night with a book than to, like, make myself go out and socialize. So I was. Even before the age of social media, I was probably spending too much time, you know, alone, and not with a phone, but with, you know, books and.

[Simon Sinek]

Paper, paper, device, and, like, notebooks. And so basically, the polymathitude of it all is a defense mechanism to not wanting to socialize.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And so you accidentally be like. It's like Perlman. It's like you accidentally become incredibly good at something when all you're trying to do is not do the other thing.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, exactly. Escapism, maybe.

[Simon Sinek]

Escapism. Yeah, that's. And I mean, I remember when you and I first got together, we're both socially awkward for first time meetings. And second and third, you are not.

[Elle Cordova]

You. You say that. I've heard you say that elsewhere. You are so warm and welcoming and you're like actually an introvert's dream. When you first. You know, when I first met you, I was like, oh, this. This person puts me at ease.

[Simon Sinek]

Well, that's very kind of you say, but it is all. It is all practice.

[Elle Cordova]

That makes sense.

[Simon Sinek]

Because, like, if I'm not working. Because that's work. I'm not naturally like that.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

So if I'm not working, I will sit there awkwardly and sort of be like, be funny. Be funny. Say something. Say something. You know?

[Elle Cordova]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

And so it's only through practice that I've learned to sort of ask questions. And create an environment where. But, but by the way, it also produces insecurity, being the introvert. Because I don't, I don't want to hold court. If I create a space and you're sort of one word answers and sort of head nods, I'm like, have I done something wrong? Yeah, you know, it's like so it does. It's all of the introvert weirdness inside my brain is still happening.

[Elle Cordova]

Well, you hide it very well.

[Simon Sinek]

Well, thank you.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. Makes it much easier to talk to you.

[Simon Sinek]

Well, thanks.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. Maybe. Maybe you should start a podcast.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, it would be good. Yeah. A podcast by introverts for introverts.

[Elle Cordova]

I mean, that's basically what it. Whatever.

[Simon Sinek]

We just sit here awkwardly and people driving on their commute just listening to sort of two people fidgeting and without the inner thoughts. Wouldn't that be even better if you could have the like, if the concept of like a cartoon with a thought bubble, if there was a technology that you could hear the actual thought bubbles of people. Yeah, I would love that.

[Elle Cordova]

I would too. Although I'd be really anxious about what my thought bubbles are saying.

[Simon Sinek]

So you'd have to have a thought bubble of the thought bubble. Like the anxiety of what my inner thoughts might be. I hope it doesn't catch that one.

[Elle Cordova]

Then we've got an infinite thought bubble going all the way down.

[Simon Sinek]

Very meta. Yeah, very meta. It's like those. Like being in two mirrors. Yeah, but with thoughts. Anyway, there are people who are actually appreciating this conversation. Others have already changed the channel. Speaking of changing the channel, another thing I just learned about you, literally minutes ago, you are a gambler.

[Elle Cordova]

I wouldn't call myself a gambler. I would call myself an advantage player. There's a difference. A gambler is somebody who sits down at a. At a slot machine or a table game just playing by the rules of the house and playing without an edge, you know, and then an advantage player has an edge.

[Simon Sinek]

But you are engaging in gambling.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, sure. I guess if you want somebody who.

[Simon Sinek]

Drinks is a drinker and somebody who gambles is a gambler.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. I think if you talk to like the world of the advantage players, like they get really prickly about being advantage players. It's a world out there.

[Simon Sinek]

They're just trying to distinguish themselves from like the tourist at Vegas sitting at.

[Elle Cordova]

The slot machine or the degenerate or the degenerate gambler.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, okay. So you're an advanced advantaged player and blackjack is your game.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. And this all started because I See, I was like, you know, phobic of casinos. I would say, like, you know, in the way where it's just like, that's a, that's a place where you go to lose your money. Like, why would anyone spend time in casinos? But my mom is a big fan of Vegas. She's a gambler and she loves doing that. So she goes there every year for her birthday. When I was 16, she told me, When I turn 60, you're going to come with me to Vegas. And then when she turned 60, I kept my word and I came with her. And I looked, I just googled like, what is the game that I can play while I'm in Vegas that's going to lose me the least amount of money? Turned out to be blackjack. And that's because you can have, you can literally just memorize. They call it basic strategy. Memorize the right hand for every. The right play for every hand.

[Simon Sinek]

It's. There's odds.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

It's like, it's this, it's math. The statistics of whether you're likely to get an advantage or disadvantage based on pure odds. There's more 10 cards than any other card in the deck, etc. Etc.

[Elle Cordova]

Exactly.

[Simon Sinek]

So if you memorize that, yeah, there's a right play for everything, also known as counting cards.

[Elle Cordova]

Okay, well, that's not counting cards. But, but memorizing is the first.

[Simon Sinek]

Memorizing the shoe is the counting the cards part. Like how many?

[Elle Cordova]

You don't have to memorize the whole shoe. So this is so much easier than people think it is. By the way, this is not a, this is not a difficult thing. It's just a thing that you maybe have to spend a little bit of time to.

[Simon Sinek]

So you memorize the tables, memorize the.

[Elle Cordova]

Table of like the right play for every hand. Then if you're going to go to the length where you're memorizing the right play for every hand, then you might as well just go one extra step of just keeping track of when high cards are coming out versus low. So you just add, you assign a value of one to everything that's high and then a negative one for everything that's low. And then for like a medium sized card, it's just zero. So all you have to do, if you can add and subtract by one, you can count cards. It's literally that simple.

[Simon Sinek]

So you don't actually have to memorize which cards have happened.

[Elle Cordova]

Definitely not.

[Simon Sinek]

Because they keep adding more cards to the shoe to make it difficult to remember which cards have happened because it just goes.

[Elle Cordova]

They have multi deck shoes. And so to get more accurate. So if you're going to do that, then if you're going to start doing the ones and everything, then you might as well make it even better for yourself. And look and see the, like, discount tray. And then you can kind of divide by the number of decks that are left in the. In the. In the shoe. Because they've. These days, they're using six, eight decks, you know. Yeah. So to really get an accurate count, you're waiting till the kind of the end and whatever. So it's just like, I got into this because I was like, first, just not wanting to lose all my money, and then second, I want to be able to hang with my mom. So I'm going to be at this blackjack table anyway. I might as well just, like tip the.

[Simon Sinek]

You just try to make it so you can sit with your mom for as long as possible without losing all your money. You're just trying to make a nice.

[Elle Cordova]

Night, just get some free drinks and, like, at least just come out even. But as it turns out, you can come out ahead, you know, and it's not cheating. It's just using the information that's available to every player, you know, so they can't arrest you. There's nothing illegal about it.

[Simon Sinek]

It's not cheating. But the casinos don't like it. And I read somewhere, and you probably actually know the answer, which is the odds of winning in Blackjack are. Are 50. Whatever. Like, whatever the number is. I'm making it up.

[Elle Cordova]

But like, yeah, if you.

[Simon Sinek]

50%, let's just call it. And if you. If you count cards, it's like 50.1.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

It's very, very small percentage.

[Elle Cordova]

Exactly.

[Simon Sinek]

But over the course of an entire evening, that point one adds up to an advantage versus the casino.

[Elle Cordova]

Exactly. And if you were betting a lot of money and you did this for long enough, yes, you're gonna take a lot of money from the casino. But I'm just betting pennies, you know, or not pennies, but, you know, small dollars. Yeah, small dollars. So it's like they're. For the most part, they know you're counting cards. They actually have machines. They have cameras in the sky, like, watching your plays. They even have chips inside of chips, you know, so like little devices that track, you know, how is she betting, how is she changing her bets based on the count. And their computers are counting the cards. And so if your bets are changing based on the count, they know that immediately. They don't even have to watch anymore. They just know.

[Simon Sinek]

But they'll let you have chips in the. In the chips. Like. Like, they have qr, not QR codes. They have. They're called rf. RF tags. RF chips.

[Elle Cordova]

Oh, yeah. So I didn't even know.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, so. So that's how you use a. It looks like a credit card piece of plastic.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

In there is an RF chip that opens up your hotel room. Yeah, that's the same chip.

[Elle Cordova]

It's probably a similar in the same thing. Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

I didn't even know that they're doing that.

[Elle Cordova]

So the old days in the 70s, where they had the pit boss just coming, like, standing over your shoulder, counting to see if you're counting, that's gone. They don't even have to let on that they know what you're doing because the computers are doing it for them. So I've been backed off and banned from probably close to, like, six, seven casinos now in Vegas. And unfortunately, they're all my mom's favorite casino, so we can't go there anymore. She's told me to stop.

[Simon Sinek]

So you're now playing at Circus Circus because no one else will let you in, Right?

[Elle Cordova]

Well, those are bad. The only play where they have gut good blackjack. But anyway, my mom. My mom is like, why can't we just go have fun? And I'm like, okay. That was the. That was the original intent anyway, so.

[Simon Sinek]

So I love this that all you wanted to do was be a good daughter, celebrate your mom's birthday, and now you're banned from half a dozen casinos in Las Vegas.

[Elle Cordova]

I know it's a funny turn of events, but, yeah, I blame my mom. She. She brought me there.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, it's always childhood trauma. Yeah, it's always, like, childhood trauma. That's exactly what it is. You're banned from casinos.

[Elle Cordova]

I just wanted to sit with her longer and have. Have more drinks. So.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, but this is. But this is what I love about your brain, which is 99.9% of people on the planet would. If mom says, come to me with Vegas, I just want a nice time with you, they would say, fine, I'll spend a hundred dollars, and then I'll just sit with you or whatever, you know, whatever's in their limits. And maybe they'll play somewhat seriously and slowly to maximize, like, no big bets, all minimum bets to just maximize the length of play. They would probably not have figured out which game can I lose the least amount on, which is blackjack. They probably play something where they'd guess they can lose the least amount on or just play the game that their mom likes. But the fact that you did that and then your brain works in a way that you could not help yourself, but to find the advantage to prolong the game and learn to count cards. This is what I love about you. It's not the bite of the apple you take. We all take the first bite. It's that you always find a way to take a second bite of the apple. And this is what I love. There's always something in addition to the thing that you started to do is. And I'm just trying to think now, like, even your own platform, like, you always find a plus one in everything, Even in the way you're trying to sort of, like, make a. You have accidental fame. Is it fair that. Is it fair to say?

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. Or was it.

[Simon Sinek]

Or is it a little more prescriptive than that?

[Elle Cordova]

I think I was trying to reach people with my music before I started this whole social media thing. But the fame you had.

[Simon Sinek]

Fame. Ish.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

From the music.

[Elle Cordova]

A very small.

[Simon Sinek]

Small but loyal group. From the music. But the. When. When the poem started, and I think it was the font poem that really put you on the map.

[Elle Cordova]

Well, the font skit. And really was the. Before that, it was the. The Big bang poem, which is a space poem that I wrote that was, like, probably the big thing that launched my.

[Simon Sinek]

Oh, that's right. I remember that one, too. Who's the other guy?

[Elle Cordova]

Hank Green. We were just talking.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, that's Hank Green.

[Elle Cordova]

The lovely Hank Green. Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay. So, yes, the space poem, the Big Bang, which is, by the way, brilliant poem. So the poem and the skit really launched you. You had viral success. Yeah, twice. Did you know that was going to happen?

[Elle Cordova]

No, no, I definitely did not. And really what happened was that I was. I was very much just all in on the musician career. That's what I did for 10 years. I was touring and, you know, I was kind of picking up steam as we went along. We were slowly growing, and we had these tours set up in, like, Europe and Australia. And then, bam, the pandemic happened. Everything got canceled. Everything we had planned out for that year got canceled. And my first thought was, like, oh, no, all the money that we're gonna lose and, like, how will we pay the bills? And then my second thought was like, thank God, because I really needed a break. I was, like, getting sick all the time on the road. I had no time to create anything new. I was just playing the stuff I had written and you know, sometimes. Five years ago, there just was. I had a schedule that did not allow me to be a human being, and certainly not a creative human being. So when everything got canceled, it was such a blessing in disguise because then I rediscovered my creativity and then discovered that it was like it went beyond music. I could write other things.

[Simon Sinek]

Had you not written poems?

[Elle Cordova]

I'd always written poems. I mean, I think every English major has written some poems at some point. But I never shared anything publicly with anyone, and I had never allowed myself to be playful online. It was always just like, share your music, you know, and TikTok and these new vertical format apps, just. They really encourage something in me, just like in a lot of people. I think it's just like, share yourself, share. You know, be silly. Like, who cares? We're all just killing time in the pandemic. It doesn't matter. So I shared this comedy side, and that seemed to, well, like an earnest poetry side and then also a comedy side. I should probably niche down at some.

[Simon Sinek]

Point, but, you know, because you're a polymath. Well, there's no niching down. We love you for your diversity, but.

[Elle Cordova]

Various things, you know, just throwing things at the wall and it turns out, like, other things were sticking and I. I was just getting a lot of fulfillment from it. So I haven't really gone back to the musician lifestyle, although I'm starting to dip my toe back into it now.

[Simon Sinek]

What's so interesting is I don't think people appreciate the value of space for a creative person. Like you said, you're sort of going about this music career, and then when you get a gap where you can't do the thing, you can only think about doing the thing.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, it.

[Simon Sinek]

And we saw it. Like, I remember Bo Burnham, you know, when he wrote Inside during the pandemic, and it was. It was of a time. I'm not sure it holds up anymore. I don't think you can watch it in 10 years.

[Elle Cordova]

Some of those songs still will.

[Simon Sinek]

The songs. Yes. But as a piece of art.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

You know, I don't know if it's timeless or not, but it is a work of sheer genius. And I'd seen his comedy before, and I think he's a brilliant comedian, but this was something. This was something else that only could have been made in that. In that time.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And, you know, I'm thinking about my own creative process and people like, how do you come up with ideas and what they would. I. It's hard to explain, which is the way I come up with ideas is when I'm not thinking. I get ideas sparked in conversation, but it's the rumination, the space, the gaps. You know, I like to describe my writing processes is days and weeks of guilt and self loathing punctuated by hours of sheer brilliance.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

If only I could predict when those hours would happen.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. And the trick is to be ready for it.

[Simon Sinek]

And the trick is to be ready for them. And I've sat at home going, can't go out in case it strikes. And then I like just end up watching TV and like, I should have gone out. And then I go out and then it starts happening and I'm like grabbing anything I can write on napkins. I literally have sugar, sugar packets, because I couldn't find anything to write. And I know that one loses ideas as quickly as they happen. And so if you don't. If I don't capture it immediately, I will lose it. Even if I. Wait a minute.

[Elle Cordova]

The muse is not patient.

[Simon Sinek]

The muse is not patient. And so literally, I would take a sugar packet and open it delicately, dump out the sugar, grab a pen and start writing. I have. I have binder clips of sugar packets with ideas on them.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And the thing that I've learned is you can't. Is I, as. I can't be precious. You just.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, you can't be Precious.

[Simon Sinek]

You know, 99 of the ideas are shit. And the other 1%, I can't read my handwriting.

[Elle Cordova]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

So it's the act of the writing that is actually more important because I sometimes go back and read them.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

But once they're written, for some reason, they get stored somewhere else. But this idea of gaps in space, you said it during the pandemic, you know, during watching TikTok, it was unbelievable how funny people were.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And how creative people were. Like, I didn't realize that people were that funny and that creative of every age and every disposition. And just people are really funny, you know, And I don't think anybody guessed that from you, did they?

[Elle Cordova]

No, no, definitely not. So. Yeah, and I think that's true. And also when you're. When you're contributing to that and trying to be your own brand of funny and your own brand of witty and, you know, smart or whatever, and to try to contribute to the conversation. Part of what I find is helpful is to remember that your audience is also that it's not just the people making this. This content, it's also the people consuming. And when you reach a wide enough audience, like, I can say confidently that all. Even my My best work, the work that I've spent the most time on, that I've put a lot of myself into, that I've made intentionally very. You know, I've tried to make it witty, I've tried to make it funny. Nothing I've ever posted will beat the top comment underneath the post, you know, because you get the hive mind and people are so funny and they're so smart, you know, so it's a good way to. To stay focused and just stay humble and. And, you know, and just to realize, like, you're part of. You're part of a species that's really innovative and smart and funny. And I think with these platforms, a lot of that rises to the top. You get. You get really smart and funny top.

[Simon Sinek]

Comments, but you're also attracting smart and funny people.

[Elle Cordova]

I've been really lucky with the community.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean. Well, you're attracting. There's a lot of people like us. There's a lot of nerds who really like your stuff because you have to know a little bit about something.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, exactly.

[Simon Sinek]

To appreciate your humor.

[Elle Cordova]

And I've pushed it a little. I'm like, could I make a really weird, obscure skit about, like, particles hanging out in the salooniverse, you know, and talk about, like, the Higgs boson?

[Simon Sinek]

Loved it.

[Elle Cordova]

And a lot of people in the comments, like, I didn't know what that was, and then I googled it and looked it up, and now I know what it is, and that makes me happy. You know, it's like a sort of gotcha. Now we're. Now we know more.

[Simon Sinek]

But this is the genius of your work, because we live in a world with unlimited access to unlimited information, and yet still we see a post online or we hear a comment from a politician or some CEO said something, and in the span of 10 seconds, we can verify that. That statement or not. And we don't. I mean, I joke about it. Like, I go around saying, so I read the study. I think it's true. I don't know. But here you go. I literally could verify it any day. But they don't.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, there's just.

[Simon Sinek]

This is like. It's amazing how the. The momentum of laziness when we have the access. And what I love about your work is it forces somebody to go, what is that? And they do go look it up. Not because they want to be smarter, it's because they want to get the joke.

[Elle Cordova]

Exactly, exactly. You dangle the joke as a carrot.

[Simon Sinek]

Dangle the joke as a carrot.

[Elle Cordova]

Where.

[Simon Sinek]

Where all the other Criteria of, like, all the other circumstances of, like, what's that politician saying? What's that CEO saying? It's like, ugh, I have to go. Be smart now. Forget it. Yeah, you know, I'd rather just react. It's easier.

[Elle Cordova]

But if the reward is getting in on a joke and getting to be part of this little community where everybody's joking in the comments, then, yeah, maybe it's worth looking up what's a Higgs boson?

[Simon Sinek]

You know, I want to go back to this idea of space because I'm so fascinated by the gaps in space. Do you force your schedule because you're busier now than you ever have been? Do you force gaps in space because for you, lockdown was a thing that unleashed this new, new creativity. Do you make mini lockdowns for yourself?

[Elle Cordova]

Yes, absolutely. Well, it taught me the value of that.

[Simon Sinek]

So how do you do that? Like, do you schedule space? Like, do you put a blank thing in your calendar where, like, there's presence and absence? Right. It's like.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, I mean, I would love to tell you that I'm really disciplined and I have my phone and it's locked in a safe, like, from my creative hours every morning. I would love to tell you that I don't. I'm just as addicted to everything. I'm addicted to the supply that I give out, which is social media, dopamine, whatever, as. As the people are consuming this stuff. But I think what I do try to do, though, is I try to consume. I try to consume more of the things that are going to fill me up creatively so that my output is better. So instead of spending, you know, four hours a day just combing through social media, you know, trusting the algorithm to give me the things to fill me up, which it will not, you know, I will try to minimize that amount of time and try to instead replace it with, like, rereading Virginia Woolf's to remove one's own or something. Something I know is going to. If I'm. Especially if I'm going through a rut, I'll revisit the things that I know are going to light me on fire and they're going to create better output for me.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, so this is. This is. Okay, this is good. So I'm not a reader, which we've talked about. I'm over the shame, but I still have embarrassment. I'm not a reader, but I do still need those things. I've had to recreate my creative process every time I've had to do something creative because what worked before doesn't work again. I don't believe in writer's block, okay? Right. I believe that the, the format or system that you're using to create in the past isn't working anymore. So you're not having writer's block. It's not that you're having no ideas. The system is broken, okay? And so what we do, when people have writer's block, they keep doing the same system and blaming themselves. And I say, okay, I know I have ideas. I know I'm an idea guy. So if I'm having no ideas, am I broken? Or is the way I'm attempting to have ideas broken? And so I have experimented with an. Every time I lock up on ideas, I break down on ideas. I change the way I'm coming up with ideas. But this idea of space, like, I. When I realized I needed time. And so here's the thing. So I learned this a bunch of years ago, which is the. Our rational brains, our thinking brains, the part that weighs the pros and cons and access, our expertise, that has access to the equivalent of about 2ft of information around us, right? Our subconscious brains, our limbic brains, have access to the equivalent of something like three acres of information around us. Every conversation we've had, every movie we've seen, every book we've read gets stored somewhere. You just don't have access to it. And so the value of the brainstorming session is not to solve the problem, it's to ask the questions. Because your brain won't ruminate on things that aren't presented. It won't just solve problems that don't exist in your life. You're not going to just, you know, come up with some random idea like a problem must exist or a question must be asked, and then you can quote, unquote, think about it. But if you think about it, we. We have our best ideas when we're falling asleep or when we go for a run, or we're standing in the shower or, you know, drive sitting in traffic. Like, it's. When we're not, quote, unquote, thinking, but the brain is still ruminating in the subconscious, and it gives you the idea. And it seems like divine intervention, but it's not. It's just your limbic brain.

[Elle Cordova]

It's been working on the problem, and.

[Simon Sinek]

It'S been working on the problem the whole time. And so the problem is, is you need those for the. For your mind to give you the ideas. And in our modern world, we have filled in all those gaps. So we don't sit on the subway, on our commute and just stare off into space anymore. We're on our phones. We don't just sit in the car in traffic and just sort of let our minds wander. We make a phone call. I mean, you go out for dinner with a friend and they go to the bathroom. We don't just sit and like, look around the room or talk to somebody or talk to somebody. We pull out our phones because it's too uncomfortable to just sit. And so I have worked very hard to force myself, like, if I. If I go out for dinner, I give my phone to someone else. Be like, here's my phone. Put it in your bag. So when they go to the bathroom, they take my phone with them.

[Elle Cordova]

That's.

[Simon Sinek]

And so I'm forced because I have no willpower. I'm addicted like everybody else. But if you take away the crack. Can't do crack.

[Elle Cordova]

Yep. I do the same thing with daily walks. So I don't allow myself to bring a phone or.

[Simon Sinek]

But you're creating space and gaps.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And those moments. And by the way, space and gaps can also be created going to a museum or, you know, it's just engaging in other passive stimulation. Not playing a game, not doing work, not surfing the Internet. Passive stimulation has been absolutely invaluable to my idea generation. Almost all my ideas happen in crazy, random places. This episode is brought to you by True Classic. And this ad won't sound like regular ads, because it's not. Instead, I sat down with Ryan and had an hour long conversation with him. And we pulled out some of the best clips so that their ad is real content. I hope you enjoy.

[C]

When people troll us online. I will find out who they are and I will find something in their timeline that signals something that they're into. And I will always come around and figure out, even if I have to spend, like, if I spend 45 minutes on this. Here's a good example. Some guy was trolling us a couple years ago, said, like, stop sending me ads. And I just replied with, I hope your dad gets better soon. And what I figured out was he had a GoFundMe account and his dad had cancer. And I made a big donation, a couple thousand bucks, and I just completely won him over. And the next week he made a video about it and he posted it and he was wearing all True Classic with a True Classic hat. And he told the story and it just was like, this is how you're supposed to respond to this kind of stuff. Not just like, let Me, block the guy. Get out of my ecosystem. I don't want to talk to you. Just like, let me show this guy what true empathy and kindness looks like and let me just go overboard. And I didn't know if I'd ever hear from him again.

[Simon Sinek]

Didn't matter.

[C]

But now he's lifelong true classic. Now we follow each other, we become friends. So you build these unbelievable connections with people. And when I was growing our customer service team, it was the same thing. It was, guys, you've got to have a big antenna that just goes deeper than, like, this is the issue, you know, that I'm solving, tracking, whatever. Like, you gotta find out, where are they? What are they into? And just probe a little bit for some questions that you can show up for them because that'll last a lifetime.

[Elle Cordova]

But I think another important piece of it is something you said earlier where you said, a question must be asked.

[Simon Sinek]

A question must be asked.

[Elle Cordova]

We can't expect our brains, the brain that's ruminating and doing all this work behind the scenes to. To be working on a problem that we haven't presented to it. So it won't, it won't just spit out random ideas like you said. So I think our brains are computers. There needs to be an input, you know, we need to ask it something. We need to ask it to solve a problem. And the problem might be, what? What is my next idea? What is the thing I want to write about next? Or whatever. But we need to act, actively feed our brains those questions and, and give them something to work on.

[Simon Sinek]

I think more specific than that too, at least for me, you know, that's where the conversations happen, because the. Backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards, you know, yes, there's answers in those conversations, but it raises more questions. And so it's not like, what's my next idea? But rather like, why are we friends? And then you start saying, why are we friends? Okay. Like, I understand the biology, I understand the anthropology. I can look that stuff up. That's pretty written about. What is a friend now? It gets complicated.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. So it's not just asking a question. What is my next idea? It's specific questions about specific.

[Simon Sinek]

And they can be big problems. Like, like, help me understand the world order as we know it. Post Cold War. That's something I've actually thought about. Right? Like, what is the new world order? And it's such a big question that it's not going to be one. And that's why all the conversations and all of the articles I'm reading And all of the people I'm interacting who have different points of view, I'll either ask directly, so what do you think about the world right now? And it's all feeding that until at some point you go, aha, I have an idea. You need, I guess two things you need, you need to ask three things. You need the question to be posed, big or small. You need to feed it with data through conversations, reading whatever your chosen preferred way of intake is. And then, and only then do you need space and gaps. And we do the first, we do the second, we don't do the third.

[Elle Cordova]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

And I think this is the thing, and there's been stuff written about this, there's a basic global decline in ideas. Like the number of patents that are filed these days is vastly fewer than in the past. And, and, and the quality of the patents is lower. And so like we know that there's fewer ideas that are happening. And I think this idea of space and gaps and if we're going to be a hyper scheduled, hyper connected world, not rebelling against it, just it is what it is, then schedule gaps.

[Elle Cordova]

See now I know you are an optimist. This is sort of central to you.

[Simon Sinek]

I've been accused of such, I will.

[Elle Cordova]

Say the pessimistic take on this is, and I'm not calling myself a pessimist, although I have tendencies, is that now that we have the technology we have, we won't in any meaningful way be able to make those spaces the way that you're saying. And instead I think what will happen is we'll channel our decision making our idea generation into our technology. Soon we're going to have, you know, you talk about the decline in patents, we're going to have AI coming up with a lot of solutions for us that we simply haven't devoted the brain resources to think about because we don't have to anymore. We have a much bigger, smarter brain to sort of solve those problems for us.

[Simon Sinek]

I don't think it's either or, I think it's both. I think, I think, you know, just as the calculator or the abacus could help us do calculations faster, the calculator up that ante. Certain things in mathematics or going to the supermarket got quicker. And so I think where math got quicker, ideas will get quicker. But that doesn't mean that the machine has the lock on all the ideas.

[Elle Cordova]

Right?

[Simon Sinek]

And I still think that a human generated idea will always be the kind of idea that it's the asymmetrical idea, it's the Idea that nobody could see happening because. And maybe I just either underestimate the power of the machine or overestimate the power of the brain, the human brain.

[Elle Cordova]

But I have a more pessimistic view in general of like, you know, I think that machines will take a lot of our purpose, you know, but I do think there will be ways for us to work with them and alongside them to also, you know, generate ideas. Continue generating ideas. There'll always be a premium on human made creations, human generated ideas. But I just, I do think that a lot of the, the really heavy lifting, problem solving, the things that you'll need patents for, that's all gonna, I think we're gonna see a major shift toward.

[Simon Sinek]

And then the question is, can you put a patent on a thing that a machine came up with when the.

[Elle Cordova]

Company who made the machine will probably get the patent?

[Simon Sinek]

That's where IP law is gonna get completely destroyed. Have you found this in your work yet? I know in the art world, artists are being asked to sign affidavits to affirm that this was designed and produced by them and not by AI. Have you found that in your work yet that people are asking you to say, did you actually come with this or did the machine come up with this for you?

[Elle Cordova]

Not yet. I'm sure it's coming. And I'm sure I've signed some agreement already that's signed away all my creative rights.

[Simon Sinek]

I feel like it's not just the creative rights. It's. They want the affirmation that the person.

[Elle Cordova]

Came up with it, that, that it wasn't AI generated.

[Simon Sinek]

So, like, hey, this little cute little skit you wrote, this little poem that.

[Elle Cordova]

You write, like that is in many contracts. Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

So they want to know that you wrote it and you did not write it with AI.

[Elle Cordova]

Yep.

[Simon Sinek]

So that's what I mean. Which is we, we're not buying the product, we're buying the story.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, well, you're buying a piece of the creator.

[Simon Sinek]

You're buying a piece, but you're buying the fact that, hey, she did this.

[Elle Cordova]

Right, Exactly.

[Simon Sinek]

And that there's a premium on the human, on the man made, the human made.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. And I'm not saying that all like AI assisted art is worthless and should be thrown in the trash.

[Simon Sinek]

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

[Elle Cordova]

But I do think there will always be a premium on human, fully human made things. I mean, we, we don't watch, we don't sit around for fun watching computers talk to each other, play chess against each other. We watch humans play chess. It's More interesting story. They're better at it.

[Simon Sinek]

But we watch humans because we like watching the mistake. The potential for the mistake.

[Elle Cordova]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

It's true. Isn't that beautiful, though, that the reason we find a human game more interesting, even though they're not as good, is the drama of the pressure and the mistake.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Is the part that we find entertaining.

[Elle Cordova]

Exactly.

[Simon Sinek]

It's not actually the gameplay.

[Elle Cordova]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

It's the. It's the human drama. Oh, I love that. I think one of the really good sides of. Of the AI. And by the way, I can't have a freaking conversation with that AI Coming up.

[Elle Cordova]

Oh, I'm sure this is just all over the podcast.

[Simon Sinek]

Every conference, every other talk is AI And. But is. I think it'll help us appreciate. Because we have this, at least in America, we have this sort of vomit reaction to the concept of boredom. Like that it's some sort of, you cannot be bored, you know? And I think boredom is the ultimate space where you sit there staring off at the clouds, not knowing what to do, and you're kind of like, how are you? I don't know, a little bored, got nothing to do. And I think there's joy in the appreciation of boredom because as I was saying before, for a curious mind, it goes right back to the beginning. For a curious mind, there's always questions and problems being asked, and yet there's not enough solutions to all the questions. And I think boredom and joy of boredom is the thing that not only keeps us human, but helps us see things, find things, invent things, write things, paint things, sing things that the machine never can, never will. And I think. I think in this hyper creative, not hyper, hyper productive world that we live in, where the machines are just making us even more productive, that our creativity comes from being bored, not from being active.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, I think I agree. Because boredom is the very space you were talking about. We need to create spaces where we can allow ourselves to. And I don't know if boredom is exactly the right word, but allow our brains to be freed of distraction by boredom.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, I have nothing to do.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

I have nothing to do at most walking.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. And that's why I take my. I guess you could call them boredom walks. I take my, like enforced boredom walks so that my. I'm forcing my brain to think to just. Whether it's problem solving or just thinking about the world around me or whatever it is. I think it's really important that I don't have my device. And I'm just forced for the next 45 minutes, however long the walk is to my destination, to just ruminate.

[Simon Sinek]

And the important thing here is that it's okay if nothing happens.

[Elle Cordova]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[Simon Sinek]

By applying pressure to the boredom is, is the paradox. Is the exact problem we're trying to.

[Elle Cordova]

Solve for or giving permission for boredom.

[Simon Sinek]

Giving permission.

[Elle Cordova]

I can just be bored. I don't have to solve problems on my watch.

[Simon Sinek]

And that's one of the things that people don't realize, which is I actually, I won't schedule anything in my calendar for Fridays. Now. I work on Fridays, but I will not pre schedule anything on a Friday. It has to be blank. So that if I choose to have three hours or four hours of whatever I want, which includes staring off at a wall, that is my prerogative. And I. This is expanded because I used to do our. Like I would literally put an hour break in my calendar to do nothing. I would schedule nothing. Not that I'm scheduling nothing. I'm scheduling to do nothing.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

The act of nothing.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And. And I think in any job it's. I don't care what your job is. I don't care if you're a homemaker. I don't care if you're a caretaker or a parent. I don't care if you're in a creative job, a non creative job. I think all problems are solved. And maybe boredom just has bad branding.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, it does.

[Simon Sinek]

What should we call it? Because we can't call it creative space because that creates pressure that the space has to be creative. And it doesn't.

[Elle Cordova]

Maybe a period of stasis or openness.

[Simon Sinek]

Good nothing.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, good nothing.

[Simon Sinek]

I'm gonna do good nothing for an hour.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

I like good nothing. What are you doing right now? Good nothing. You want to do something?

[Elle Cordova]

No, it's my good nothing time.

[Simon Sinek]

Doing my good nothing time.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, I like that. Yeah. It's better than boredom.

[Simon Sinek]

It's better than boredom because I'm not bored. I mean, sometimes I am. I mean, I went out for dinner with a friend last night and you know, she went to the bathroom and I sat there and just stared around in the restaurant. And yeah, I was bored and started wondering like she. Okay. Like she's been gone a long time. I wish she'd come back. I'm kind of bored. Do you have the same paranoia that I do when you go out for dinner with a friend? Especially if it's a new friend and there's a line at the bathroom in a restaurant and so. Or somebody's in there for far too long and you're just waiting for them to come out. And so you find yourself waiting for a very long time. And then immediately you have the paranoia that the other person thinks that you have, like, stomach problems or something because you've been gone a long time. But. And I always come up like, oh, my God, the line was really long. Somebody was in there. It's not me. It's not my stomach problems. I was. I was really quick in there. I have that intense paranoia that somebody thinks. And sometimes sick, because I was. Got a lot.

[Elle Cordova]

Well, sometimes I do have stomach problems. And I'll say it. Even then, there's such a long line.

[Simon Sinek]

Sneaky, sneaky. Okay, I have a. I have a couple more questions.

[Elle Cordova]

Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

What's the thing you've dealt with? What's the challenge you've.

[Elle Cordova]

For me, it's anxiety. It's an intense panic disorder. I get panic attacks. They used to be incredibly bad when I was a teenager and then into early 20s college, almost crippling. I had intense agoraphobia, could barely leave my apartment and was untreated during those times.

[Simon Sinek]

And I kept thinking, agoraphobia is afraid of outside.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. Like, afraid of people not being able to leave your place because of fears of anxiety, panic attacks, which are happening anyway. So, yeah. So, yeah, I think just really thinking back to those memories, it was just like, again, like a warning sign. Like, if I don't get my stuff together and I don't get treated, this is the. The ultimate reality, and it's going to tear family apart.

[Simon Sinek]

And, you know, how old were you when you started to be like, I think I need someone to look after me?

[Elle Cordova]

Well, that's a good thing about having, you know, grandparents that have gone through stuff like that is you realize early on that, you know, this is a. This is a thing that needs to be treated. It's a condition, you know, So I was probably 16 when I finally started to ask for help. Because I was having such intense panic attacks at school. I was having to leave classes, which is, you know, like we said earlier, I'm afraid of authority. I like to be a good student when I can. And having to, like, run out of class and look like I'm skipping or something was not.

[Simon Sinek]

Which only added to the anxiety.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. Yeah. Knowing that you have to be in class.

[Simon Sinek]

Is it under control now?

[Elle Cordova]

I would say it's like, as under control as it probably ever will be to the point where I can live a normal life, but I just. I always have to deal with panic attacks.

[Simon Sinek]

How often do they happen now?

[Elle Cordova]

It depends if I'm traveling, if there's like a lot of going on, especially if I'm traveling, I'll have them regularly on in my travels. So maybe every few days or sometimes multiple times a day. But if I'm home in my routines and I'm taking care of myself and everything, then maybe once. Once in a month.

[Simon Sinek]

Is there a reason you choose to talk about it?

[Elle Cordova]

I mean, I just think we could all just talk more about our mental health. I think that I feel two ways about it because I also think there's like an over. Maybe an over diagnosing.

[Simon Sinek]

We over diagnose things.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Like everybody who's a little bit. That, you know, everybody's ocd, right?

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Like, I don't realize what real OCD is, which is deep, deep, deep superstition like your grandmother had.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, yeah. There are so many forms of it, but yeah, that's the. How her is manifested. But yeah. I think, you know, on one hand we have people, I think, over diagnosing themselves and others and their friends and talking about it. And then I think there's another side of it where, you know, people who have really struggle with severe, debilitating mental illness still don't really want to talk about it. And I think it's. It's just better for everybody if we get the word out there that. That these things happen because, you know, you. If you don't, it just gets worse. It festers, and then we have negative outcomes, you know, so.

[Simon Sinek]

Have you ever written a poem about it?

[Elle Cordova]

No. It's weird how I find that the things that are the most personal and then go down the deepest are things I can't seem to get myself to write about. Maybe that'll change, I don't know, maybe one day. But I like to just find solace in, like, humor and distract away from that.

[Simon Sinek]

I do find it ironic that you are such a rule follower and you sort of respect authority figures and running out of class created more anxiety.

[Elle Cordova]

It's not that I respect authority figures.

[Simon Sinek]

Fine. But you like rules.

[Elle Cordova]

I. I am afraid to break the rules.

[Simon Sinek]

Yet you count cards and are banned from casinos.

[Elle Cordova]

But that's not a good feeling. When they. When I do, I see the suits swarming because they get the pit bosses together, they start swarming. I hear the telephones ringing. I know they're coming. I hate that I get all sweaty and. And then I.

[Simon Sinek]

Do you try and anticipate it and leave before they throw you out?

[Elle Cordova]

No, I just let it happen because, yeah, it's just better to know because sometimes you're wrong. Sometimes they're actually just. Just hanging out, talking about something else, you know, and then they all disperse. So, no, they'll come over and they're generally pretty nice. I will say they haven't broken the law. Well, right. They'll say. They'll say something really sweet like, ma', am, I'm sorry, but your play is just a little too advanced for us. We won't be able to take your action here. But you're welcome to, you know, enjoy yourself at the bar or any other game in the. In the casino.

[Simon Sinek]

They invite you to play. They invite you to play craps.

[Elle Cordova]

You're welcome to lose your money at our other places where you don't have the advantage. So other. Other ones ban you though from the whole premises. So just depends on them if you get a mall cop type pit. Pitbull. Pitba.

[Simon Sinek]

So, yeah, by the way, we should. I have to like, insert a warning. Like, if you're listening to this podcast, the conversation is gonna about to get incredibly nerdy and we're gonna talk about Star wars and archetypes and in depth characters. And if you don't know what we're talking about and you don't like Star wars, perhaps go listen to a podcast, another podcast right now. So you and I, the first time we met, we very quickly bonded about our love of science fiction. You skew Star Trek, I skew Star Wars.

[Elle Cordova]

I mean, I love them almost equally.

[Simon Sinek]

That is not true.

[Elle Cordova]

If you put a gun to my head and you told me I had to only keep one, I would say Star Trek.

[Simon Sinek]

I know that because no one. It's like there's no such thing as. I love Star Trek and Star wars equally. It is impossible and it doesn't exist for anyone.

[Elle Cordova]

I come very close.

[Simon Sinek]

Well, you're the one.

[Elle Cordova]

It's just that it's still skew. And only because there's more of Star Trek. I've spent more hours, I've logged more hours and more to consume whatever. So that.

[Simon Sinek]

Whatever, whatever the reason, I just want.

[Elle Cordova]

To belong to both fandoms.

[Simon Sinek]

No one is 50, 50. On Star Trek and Star wars, everybody skews one way. I like Star Trek. I love Star Wars. Yeah, I like Star Trek, and I like different Star Treks. You know, like I'm a Trekker, not a Trekkie.

[Elle Cordova]

Okay?

[Simon Sinek]

Which means I like Next Generation.

[Elle Cordova]

Ah.

[Simon Sinek]

Which apparently they call themselves truckers.

[Elle Cordova]

I didn't know that. I mean, maybe I'm not a real member of the community.

[Simon Sinek]

Maybe Maybe I'm wrong, or it's outdated because there've been so many Star Tre Trek since then. So I don't know what the new bifurcations are, or there wouldn't be bifurcations, because that's only two things. But. But I don't know what the new delineations are, but it was my understanding when Next Generation came out that you were a trucker. If you were, like, into Next Generation, you were a Trekkie. If you're into the old Captain Kirk stuff.

[Elle Cordova]

Okay, I learned something new. That's. That's amazing. I don't think I didn't notice my bedazzled. Yeah, this is amazing. And I. I don't know how the camera angle is, but I love that I'm. I am associated here with the dark side. You are associated with the lone rebel hero. Yeah, I like that because in my mind, I think I've said this elsewhere. Star Wars. Star wars is not the story of the Skywalkers. It's not even the story of a beautiful rebellion against an oppressive regime. It's the story of a brilliant political strategist named Chief Palpatine, whose. Whose Machiavellian plans were foiled by dumb luck and familial relations. And if I get canceled for anything off of this podcast, it's going to be for being a Palpatine apologist. I just love Palpatine as a character.

[Simon Sinek]

I know you do. Yeah. I mean, yeah, he's just.

[Elle Cordova]

You just have to admire the man. It's like he. He.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, he'll stop at nothing. He's.

[Elle Cordova]

He stops nothing well, like most villains, but he goes so much further because he lays the most intricate plan, and it's just airtight. I mean, he's. He creates the Clone Wars. He's orchestrating things on both sides, you know?

[Simon Sinek]

No, he's an evil genius.

[Elle Cordova]

Just an intense genius. And also one of the most gifted Force users of all time. Happens to be both. Happens to be an evil mastermind and a gifted Force user. It takes both, you know, Anakin and Luke. It takes a cheap shot, betrayal to kill him in the end and that even that doesn't kill him.

[Simon Sinek]

And. And a great actor pretends to be good when he's really bad and, like, got everybody fooled.

[Elle Cordova]

His genial senator, what a sweet old man, you know, so charming. And then his, like, dark, horrible voice, right? Such an incredible, like, it's the perfect amount of camp in that voice. It doesn't go too far somehow, but it's just perfect.

[Simon Sinek]

And One of the things, I think that the reason Star wars is important in the world is because the, the archetypes of all the characters are so true, so consistent that everybody. You can learn about anybody by saying, which one are you? And like, are you a Han Solo? Are you Luke Skywalker? You C3PO? Are you R2D2? Are you Darth Vader? Like, everybody knows who they are and you can know everything. Like, I have a friend who's like, oh, I am so C3PO. Like, that's.

[Elle Cordova]

I also have a best friend who is 100C3PO.

[Simon Sinek]

You know everything. And I. Okay, so let's compare. I'll just tell you what my friend was like and you tell me if your friend was the same.

[Elle Cordova]

Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

Like service oriented. Like, loves to like, take care of people and like, do get things done for them. Finds joy in like getting through the checklist. Extremely organized.

[Elle Cordova]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Elle Cordova]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

This is what I'm saying. They're archetypes. So you can learn everything about a person simply by them telling you which Star wars character they are. They're. They're find most like them or most drawn to.

[Elle Cordova]

So who would Star Trek character or Start wars character? Are you.

[Simon Sinek]

So I am an equal lover of Boba. Of Boba Fett and Han Solo.

[Elle Cordova]

Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

I'm full. You know, if you force me, like gun to your head, pick one. I mean, I had two computers at a laptop and a desktop and one was named Han Solo and the other one was named Boba Fett. Yeah, but if I don't know how to choose, can you guess why I like those?

[Elle Cordova]

No, I'm trying. I'm trying to.

[Simon Sinek]

You mean you, you and I have hung out a little bit. We're not besties. But the. But you know me enough, I think. I mean, I can tell you I thought about it plenty.

[Elle Cordova]

But why Boba Fett? Tell me that one.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, well, I can't talk about Boba Fett without talking about Han Solo. They're both incredibly independent. Right? Like, Boba Fett is just, he's. He's a bounty hunter, but he, he works for himself. Right? And Han Solo, super independent. I guess maybe I'm more like Han Solo than Boba Fett. Boba Fett's just so damn cool. He's just so damn cool. He is so, I guess more like Han Solo, which is fiercely independent, begrudgingly, like, really wants to be a part of the group, but really wants to be himself and is in constant battle. It's like I want to be my Own person, but I want to be a part of the team, but I want to be my own person, but I want to be part of that team. And as independent as he is, always goes everywhere with a friend. Chewy just. Yeah. So that's where I'm different than Boba Fett. Boba Fett's a total loner and really.

[Elle Cordova]

Loyal to those friends that he.

[Simon Sinek]

Super loyal to those friends and plays up the independent. Like, I don't really care about you.

[Elle Cordova]

Guys, but he does.

[Simon Sinek]

But he really does a lot. And so it's the hyper independence, but the. The constant struggle of, I want to be my own self, but I also want to be a part of the group at all times. That paradox. But also as independent he is, he goes everywhere the friend. And that I'm just. And. And that rebel spirit of let's just give it a try to me is. I am. I'm so. I so identify with Han Solo.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. I think for me, it's. It's. Well, I love Palpatine. I love to say I identify. I mean, obviously, in the real world, authoritarian regimes, tyrants. Ew, gross. Don't want anything to do with it. In the world of Star wars, he is such. I won't call him a dynamic character because he never changes like any. You know, a dynamic character is one who, like, discovers something about themselves and has changed. And in the process, we as viewers change, too, because we learn something about ourselves that's not Palpatine. He literally never changes. He's static throughout. But that character is so well drawn. And so.

[Simon Sinek]

So what about you? Is Palpatine.

[Elle Cordova]

Well, he's a planner, and I like to be. I like to be a planner, you know, his plans tragically did not work out through real. No fault of his own, but. But, yeah, I'm inspired by his. His scheming. I won't say that I see myself in him entirely. I think if I really had to pick a character, I would say R2D2, because R2D2 is also, by the way, the original.

[Simon Sinek]

It's the original episode 4, 5, 6 that are the perfect archetypes. It's those.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, those.

[Simon Sinek]

Those are the characters, the original characters.

[Elle Cordova]

Although you really see palpatine shine in 1, 2, and 3.

[Simon Sinek]

Exactly. But you and I have had this fight, which is. You can keep your 1, 2, 3, and I'll start Star wars.

[Elle Cordova]

As a Palpatine fan. You got to watch the prequels.

[Simon Sinek]

I watched them.

[Elle Cordova]

No, I know, I know.

[Simon Sinek]

Won't watch them again, but they're.

[Elle Cordova]

They're worth it for Palpatine.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, so what is it about R2? D2?

[Elle Cordova]

R2? D2 is. R2 is incredibly underestimated. And I like that. He's. He always seems to know exactly what's going on. He's, like, privy to more information than we are even aware. Like, everybody's writing him off as this little droid. It's like, oh, get out of the way, you trash can. You know? But. But he's always saving the day. He's prepar. He. He knows where the map of where, you know, Luke Skywalker is at. He's. He's just behind the scenes, just so instrumental to everything, the entire mission.

[Simon Sinek]

Are you underestimated?

[Elle Cordova]

And I. I want to say, like, what I like about him is that he's not out there being flashy about it. He's just.

[Simon Sinek]

He's just get the job done.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, he gets the job done. He's. He's really capable. Really, like, much smarter than people think and. And humble about it. And he's funny, and I just think that. But I don't know. I relate to R2 in that way, you know?

[Simon Sinek]

Unexpectedly funny.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Good planner.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Always lurking in the background.

[Elle Cordova]

But, like. Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Not a big bragger.

[Elle Cordova]

No, he doesn't.

[Simon Sinek]

That describes you.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, I mean, we. I mean, to be fair, we don't know what he's saying only C3PO can understand.

[Simon Sinek]

But see, we. We assume that C3PO is accurately translating because that C3PO's nature. He's a translator.

[Elle Cordova]

And I love the relationship between them because R2 is always, like, checking C3PO, who is kind of braggadocious and.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Elle Cordova]

But anyway, I just. I. I really like R2D2.

[Simon Sinek]

He's probably the most secure character in all of them.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, he's.

[Simon Sinek]

He's. All of them have their baggage, and he doesn't. He's gonna. He's. He's kind of like, he just gets the job. He just gets his shit going and gets the job done.

[Elle Cordova]

There's a reason why Anakin, you know, bends over backwards to. To protect him and through the Clone wars, you know, the animated.

[Simon Sinek]

And take him with.

[Elle Cordova]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

He's. He's the chosen.

[Elle Cordova]

There's an episode where he almost gets left behind, and it's like, oh, it's a lost cause. It's just a droid. Just let him get destroyed with the ship or whatever. And Anakin's like, nope, I'm actually gonna go risk my life to my friend.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

So I think that that's A perfect way to. To end this and to move into Roswell, which is. I think you are a friend. That everyone would be lucky to have you by their side. You are R2D2.

[Elle Cordova]

Thank you, Simon. I won't call you C3PO, because you're not that. I'm not that, but you're. You're Han Solo, so.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, I am. Can I ask a favor?

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

This is totally selfish. Totally selfish. I've. I've discovered you because of this magical song called Roswell.

[Elle Cordova]

Oh, yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

My favorite thing about the song is it's accurate.

[Elle Cordova]

It. Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Every line.

[Elle Cordova]

Accurate.

[Simon Sinek]

Every line. And I knew the story of Roswell.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And how it became a thing that it wasn't. It's not aliens, but it's funny. And I love that every line of that song is an education. Like, if you. If somebody sings along, they're smarter.

[Elle Cordova]

Here's one thing, though, that I kind of got slightly wrong, and I'm going to take this opportunity to correct myself. So I say I mentioned the CIA, and technically, the CIA was created like a month after the oss. Yeah. I don't know. Was it. I don't know the exact.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, it was CIA. Ish.

[Elle Cordova]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

It was the precursor.

[Elle Cordova]

But the CIA was formed kind of in the wake of this event.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Elle Cordova]

So maybe because of this event. We don't know. But I did mention that they called the CIA, which technically. Technically, they couldn't have done that.

[Simon Sinek]

They couldn't have done that. But they called the oss.

[Elle Cordova]

But it's a fun line. It's a fun line to put in there.

[Simon Sinek]

So let's just be clear. What happened at Roswell? I mean. Well, actually, we don't have to. My ask is, can you please sing the song?

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. And I can tell you exactly what happened in Roswell by. By singing.

[Simon Sinek]

By singing the song. But first, tell us the origin story of the song. How did that song come to be?

[Elle Cordova]

So Tony and I were. Tony's a lead guitarist in my band, and we were coming back from Minneapolis, having played a show, and we decided since we were coming close, we're going through New Mexico to get back to la. I was like, we have to visit Roswell. Like, that's. That's. As a space nerd, you know, I'm less into conspiracy theories, but whatever. I. I just wanted to see it. So we. We stopped through Roswell. We were there for two days, and then on our way out, we were actually about to leave. The van broke down, so. And it broke down hard, like they had to get like a. There's some obscure piece that they needed to send in. And we ended up being there for 10 full days while the van was being fixed.

[Simon Sinek]

10 days?

[Elle Cordova]

10 days.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, that's like a. Okay. That's a long time to be.

[Elle Cordova]

It was a long. And they kept.

[Simon Sinek]

They kept saying, and Roswell's middle of nowhere, right?

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah. There's not much to do other than learn about the incident and go to the museum and all the like kitschy alien things. It's great. I mean, even the McDonald's there has like alien. It's like a spaceship. And it's really. It's really a cute town. I liked it a lot and everybody was super nice. So I would. I was asking locals about it. I was going to the museum. I was reading books about it. Like, what else are you going to do for 10 days in Roswell? And then I was like, we have to write a song over here. So before we left, we, we. We wrote the song and then we filmed it in front of the Roswell like water tower.

[Simon Sinek]

I hate to point this out, okay, But Roswell was your lockdown. It was your blank space. It was your good nothing.

[Elle Cordova]

Yeah, it was.

[Simon Sinek]

And good nothing. You had nothing to do. You're bored because you've exhausted everything there is to do in Roswell. The only thing left to do was to be creative.

[Elle Cordova]

Exactly. That's exactly right.

[Simon Sinek]

Maybe we shouldn't call it good nothing. Maybe we should call it Roswell time.

[Elle Cordova]

That I like that.

[Simon Sinek]

I need some Roswell time.

[Elle Cordova]

Yep.

[Simon Sinek]

I need to be stuck in Roswell to create something. I like it.

[Elle Cordova]

It's great.

[Simon Sinek]

Roswell time. It is. Okay. So amazing. We have El Cordova and Tony Lindgren and they're gonna perform Roswell for us. Yay.

[Elle Cordova]

Yes. We have to do it.

[D]

Back in 47 in the first week of July There was lightning in the desert and explosions in the sky.

[Elle Cordova]

Unknown flying object came and crash into.

[D]

The earth and a cattle man Brazil found the wreckage in the gather up some scraps and then he brought them in town and the people gazed in wonder at the marble he had found.

[Elle Cordova]

They found the county sheriff and they.

[D]

Called the air force base. They called the DOD and they called the CIA. There's big news today out in Roswell. That sleepy new men Mexico town and Major Marcel, what can you tell us about Roswell? Well, the Roswell army airfield sent their finest personnel. A rank and file officer was young Major Marcel. The major told his story and it echoed around the globe. Flying sights were captured at Nouve, New Mexico. But the orders came from Washington, materials were changed, the town was hushed in silence and Macarazzle was detained. They scooped up all the evidence and flew into Fort Worth, staged a couple photos and the headlines were there's nothing to see here in Roswell. Torn up, all the weather blue. And Major Marcel was mistaken as well. About B.R.

[Elle Cordova]

Get it, Tommy?

[D]

Years pass on Roswell, but the story still persists. Rumors turn to theories and theories turned to myth. But to his dying day, the Major swore on our head there's no way in hell a thing that fell was made by human head. So the mystery looks on out in Roswell, that creepy New Mexico town. Major Marcel, what CL she Tell us about Roswell.

[Elle Cordova]

The story of Roswell. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[Simon Sinek]

A bit of Optimism is brought to you by the Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by artist team Lindsay Garbinius, David Jha and Devin Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more. And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help. Simply go to SimonSinek.com until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.