The Climb Out of Pain is Taller Than Everest with National Geographic photographer Cory Richards (PART 2)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Climb Out of Pain is Taller Than Everest with National Geographic Photographer Cory Richards (PART 2)"

Introduction

In this profound continuation of his conversation with Cory Richards, Simon Sinek delves deeper into the intersection of extreme physical challenges and profound personal struggles. This episode of A Bit of Optimism explores themes of mental health, resilience, agency, and the power of community support in overcoming life's most daunting obstacles.

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Confronting Suicidal Thoughts and Mental Health Struggles

The episode opens with Cory Richards candidly discussing a harrowing experience where he contemplated ending his life amidst mounting personal and professional pressures.

• Cory Richards [00:07]: "I was sitting there and I ended up just sobbing and screaming into my sleeping bag at the top of my lungs because I didn't want the camp staff to hear what was happening."

This moment of vulnerability sets the stage for a deeper exploration of mental health challenges faced by individuals who appear outwardly successful.

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The Mind’s Response to Threat: From Binary Thinking to Critical Thinking

Cory introduces the concept of the mind’s tendency to engage in binary thinking under threat, a pattern increasingly visible in societal conflicts.

• Cory Richards [01:02]: "Our minds do this thing called splitting. When we feel under threat, we get more binary, which you see proliferating in extreme ways across America."

Simon draws parallels to high-stakes environments like aviation, where calm and critical thinking are essential for survival despite the underlying tension.

• Simon Sinek [02:47]: "You can hear the tension in their voice, but they're calm and they're thinking and they saved the lives of many because they could think critically."

Cory emphasizes the importance of self-regulation and moving from a sympathetic to a parasympathetic state to foster resilience.

• Cory Richards [01:15]: "If you can master the skill of slowing yourself down, which comes down to learning how to self regulate, you can make that shift really quickly from binary to critical."

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Resilience and Agency: Taking Control in the Face of Adversity

The conversation shifts to the core components of resilience, with Cory highlighting agency as the foundational element.

• Cory Richards [03:06]: "The key component I think of resilience is the jumping off point and goes back to my dad is agency."

Simon underscores that agency is the antithesis of victimization, enabling individuals to focus forward rather than dwell on the past.

• Simon Sinek [03:33]: "Right."

Cory outlines four key pillars of his resilience model:

1. Agency: Taking ownership of one's situation.
2. Discovery Demands Discomfort: Embracing and leaning into uncomfortable emotions.
3. Certainty Kills Curiosity: Recognizing that unquestioned certainty stifles growth.
4. Adaptation Leads to Evolution: Reimagining and redefining oneself beyond past identities.

• Cory Richards [04:44]: "100% agency is everything."
• Cory Richards [04:43]: "Discovery demands discomfort, meaning you have to lean in to the discomfort of the situation and not try to escape it."
• Cory Richards [04:50]: "Certainty kills curiosity, meaning as soon as you're certain about something, growth is done."
• Cory Richards [04:58]: "Adaptation leads to evolution, which is about not trying to remake something, but trying to reimagine something from the ground up."

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Applying Resilience in Crisis: A Personal Journey

Cory shares a deeply personal narrative of navigating a mental health crisis during a failed Everest expedition, illustrating how he applied his resilience framework in real-time.

• Cory Richards [05:28]: "It's a beautiful question because it leads to this moment right here in 2021 height of COVID..."

Facing the cancellation of an Everest climb, financial strains, and emotional turmoil, Cory recounts his descent into depression and the subsequent search for meaning beyond his established identities as a climber and photographer.

• Cory Richards [09:00]: "I can figure out, I can go to my therapist and figure out time and place. There's a time and place for that."

His decision to leave the expedition exemplifies taking agency, despite the potential backlash and internalized blame.

• Cory Richards [03:58]: "My friends who did that, they didn't recover as well as the ones who basically said it happened."

This pivotal moment leads Cory to confront his sense of self-worth detached from external achievements, prompting a profound personal transformation.

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The Role of Community and Support Systems

A recurring theme is the indispensable role of a supportive community in navigating personal crises. Cory highlights how genuine support involves presence without the need to fix or change.

• Cory Richards [21:37]: "I have this group of men here that I have great female friends, too, but this group of men, Treehouse, we talk every day."

Simon emphasizes that the foundation of resilience often rests on the love and support from others, enabling individuals to take agency and remain curious.

• Simon Sinek [23:54]: "And this is something that I would say, I am certain of, is that we can do fantastic things alone. And ultimately, the road that you take is your own."

Cory recounts a critical moment of support from his therapist-turned-friend, illustrating the profound impact of unconditional support.

• Cory Richards [24:31]: "I just said, help. Just help. I don't know what to do."

• Cory Richards [24:33]: "She just said, don't go."

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Purpose and Service: Transforming Pain into Compassion

Cory articulates his evolved sense of purpose as fostering authentic connections and compassion through storytelling, moving beyond mere knowledge to embodying wisdom.

• Cory Richards [27:22]: "And the shift to destiny, the realization that I... hit on is like, I don't think failure really exists."

Simon and Cory discuss the concept that true purpose lies in serving others, underscoring the importance of sharing personal lessons to aid others in their struggles.

• Simon Sinek [33:06]: "True purpose in life is the opportunity to serve those who serve others."

Cory agrees, noting that service can take many forms, from actively volunteering to simply being present for a friend in need.

• Cory Richards [33:22]: "Service can be... calling a friend and listening without trying to change anything."

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Embracing Life’s Extremes: Lessons from Mountaineering and Personal Trials

The dialogue draws parallels between the extreme demands of mountaineering and the internal battles of mental health, emphasizing that both paths expose individuals to profound lessons and personal growth.

• Simon Sinek [30:28]: "And one of the things that happens on the extremes is the lessons are louder."

Cory reflects on the non-existence of failure, framing life's challenges as transitions rather than endpoints, aligning with his overarching theme of adaptation and evolution.

• Cory Richards [34:43]: "I look back now and I go, wow. You know, the shift in my mind... I don't think failure really exists."

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Conclusion: The Power of Acknowledgment and Gratitude

The episode concludes with a powerful discussion on the importance of gratitude and acknowledgment in fostering resilience and maintaining one's humanity amidst personal triumphs and tribulations.

• Simon Sinek [26:22]: "It's the lack of acknowledgment."

Cory acknowledges the transformative impact of his relationships and experiences, advocating for a life defined by service and compassion rather than solitary achievement.

• Cory Richards [27:23]: "And the shift to destiny... I had this incredible group of people that exemplifies and amplifies love and support."

Simon encapsulates the essence of Cory’s journey, highlighting the significance of community and shared humanity in overcoming personal challenges.

• Simon Sinek [33:09]: "And the courage you have to share the lessons is the most selfless thing I think you can ever do."

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Key Takeaways

1. Agency is Fundamental: Taking ownership of one’s situation is crucial for resilience.
2. Embrace Discomfort: Personal growth often necessitates leaning into uncomfortable emotions and experiences.
3. Cultivate Curiosity: Remaining curious prevents stagnation and fosters continuous growth.
4. Adapt and Evolve: Reimagining oneself beyond past identities leads to personal evolution.
5. Value Community: Supportive relationships provide the foundation needed to navigate life’s challenges.
6. Serve Others: Finding purpose in serving others transforms personal pain into collective compassion.

Notable Quotes

• Cory Richards [01:15]: "If you can master the skill of slowing yourself down, which comes down to learning how to self regulate, you can make that shift really quickly from binary to critical."

• Simon Sinek [02:47]: "You can hear the tension in their voice, but they're calm and they're thinking and they saved the lives of many because they could think critically."

• Cory Richards [04:43]: "100% agency is everything."

• Simon Sinek [33:06]: "True purpose in life is the opportunity to serve those who serve others."

• Cory Richards [34:43]: "I look back now and I go, wow. You know, the shift in my mind... I don't think failure really exists."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of A Bit of Optimism masterfully intertwines the literal and metaphorical climbs, illustrating how extreme challenges can lead to profound personal insights and growth. Cory Richards' journey is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit, the importance of community, and the transformative power of embracing one's vulnerabilities. Listeners are left with actionable insights on cultivating resilience and fostering meaningful connections to navigate their own life's mountains.

Transcript

[Simon Sinek]

Please be aware that in this episode, Simon and Corey have a discussion about suicide. Check the show notes below for the time code.

[Corey Richards]

I was sitting there and I ended up just sobbing and screaming into my sleeping bag at the top of my lungs because I didn't want the camp staff to hear what was happening. I walked into the cook tent and I was like, I'm, I'm done. They're like, with the expedition. And I was like, no, I'm. I'm like done climbing and taking pictures.

[Simon Sinek]

In the last episode of A Bit of Optimism, I sat down with Corey Richards. He's the climber and photographer whose selfie after he survived an avalanche made it to the COVID of National Geographic. His journey is nothing short of extraordinary. And as powerful as our first episode was, our conversation went even deeper. Corey's story is not just about surviving the mountains. It's about confronting the personal battles that follow, the moments of clarity and chaos that shape who we all are. This is a bit of optimism.

[Corey Richards]

Our minds do this thing called splitting. When we feel under threat, we get more binary, which you see proliferating in extreme ways across America.

[Simon Sinek]

And for good reason, by the way. There's no time for nuance when there's a threat, right. Am I going to get eaten or am I not going to get eaten?

[Corey Richards]

But there is time for critical thinking, to be able to slow yourself down and move into a response mindset. And this is, you know, this is something I actually speak about is, is this whole system is something I came up with largely because I was so heartbroken that I was like, how the fuck do I get through this? You know? And basically, if you can master the skill of slowing yourself down, which comes down to learning how to self regulate, you can make that shift really quickly from binary to critical, from binary to critical, out of sympathetic into parasympathetic.

[Simon Sinek]

It reminds me of pilots.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, if you've ever heard air traffic control tapes of a really bad emergency on an aircraft, to me, the most extreme one is there's a very famous plane crash back in Sioux Falls. Sioux Falls or Sioux City, I can't remember. But basically the plane's full on fire. The engines are on fire, the plane's on fire, they've lost hydraulics, which is literally the worst thing that can happen. And they're controlling the plane with the engine, like left and right with thrust, right. And there's video footage of it of the plane coming in for landing on fire. And it hits it crash lands, it somersaults and miraculously Half the people survived, including the pilot. But when you go listen to the air traffic control chatter, it's like we're on fire right now. Gonna make a emergency landing, you know?

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And you can hear the tension in their voice, but they're calm and they're thinking and they saved the lives of many because they could think critically. And it's everything you're saying which is in time of tension, they go calm, they self regulate, they think about the problem and they have options as opposed to black and white and panic.

[Corey Richards]

Right, Right. The key component I think of resilience is the jumping off point and goes back to my dad is agency. Because if you're looking at why did this happen? This happened to me. If you're in a place of victimhood or if you're in a place of blame, you are quite literally backwards looking. There's no forward focus there. You're, you're. I mean, this happened to me, this happened to me. Not. This is the current situation.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Corey Richards]

I can figure out, I can go to my therapist and figure out time and place. There's a time and place for that. But in those critical moments, it's about taking agency of the situation. I mean, we saw it with the fires. Nine of my friends, overnight homeless, I mean my whole core men's community, they all lived in the Palisades. And it's a natural response. When we are in threat, when we are in pain, we naturally look for places to put blame.

[Simon Sinek]

Of course.

[Corey Richards]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

It helps us feel better.

[Corey Richards]

It helps us feel better. It's a outsourcing of pain. The friends who did that, they didn't recover as well as the ones who basically said it happened. My house burned down. Now what do I do? I can figure out the fire hydrants and the reservoirs later. Right now I need to slow it down to speed up. Slow is fast. And that is a resilience mindset. If you're in there is an element of survival mode, but you're not outsourcing it.

[Simon Sinek]

So go back to your model starts with self regulation.

[Corey Richards]

It starts with agency. I mean, yes, self regulation, but basically the sort of four key components are agency is everything. So taking ownership over the situation, which.

[Simon Sinek]

Is the opposite of victimization.

[Corey Richards]

100% agency is everything. Discovery demands discomfort, meaning you have to lean in to the discomfort of the situation and not try to escape it. The third is certainty kills curiosity, meaning as soon as you're certain about something, growth is done. Right. And then adaptation leads to evolution, which is about not trying to remake something, but trying to reimagine something from the ground up. You can take pieces from the past so long as you're not married to it, but you can't remake the past. You just can't, functionally.

[Simon Sinek]

Can you give me a specific story that you have gone through where you were able to apply those four elements and manage through something that you may have not have been able to in the past?

[Corey Richards]

It's a beautiful question because it leads to this moment right here in 2021 height of COVID I had been training for a new route on Everest to climb something that had never been climbed before by anybody, do it without oxygen. And we had tried in 2019 and failed or not gotten to the top. We can get back to failure because I don't believe in it. In the history of the universe, not one single thing has ever failed. Yeah, we'll get back to that. So it's 2021, and we. The Everest season from the north side, which is where we were climbing from the Tibetan side, gets canceled. And so we have all this money saved. We're. We're making a film about my dying father and. And this climb and. And mental health. And we decided to go to a mountain called Dhalagiri, which is the seventh highest mountain in the world. It's sort of like a dry run. And we ended up at base camp. And I had not been sleeping well. I had not been eating a lot. I was very emotional. I was teary. We flew to base camp in a helicopter. So we jumped elevations really quick. And then we exerted ourselves for three days trying to build a base camp.

[Simon Sinek]

Because there's no infrastructure.

[Corey Richards]

There's no infrastructure there. Especially that time of year, those seasons. Again, we were trying a new route, so there's this hyper stress going on. And the team went out to sort of recon a way onto the face because nobody had ever climbed it. I stayed in my tent, and my brain started to speed up and I started to cry uncontrollably. I was trying to read, but I really couldn't make sense of the words. I was reading, I think autobiography of a yogi or something like that. And all I kept coming back to was this word, love, love, love. But then it was countered by this idea of, like, sort of grandiosity and dying. I couldn't make sense of it. Later on, it would be, I think, reasonably diagnosed as a very extreme, mixed bipolar episode, which is where you're experiencing crushing depression and hypomania, in my case, all at the same time. So it's incredibly Hard. Anyway, I was sitting there and I ended up just sobbing and screaming into my sleeping bag at the top of my lungs because I didn't want the camp staff to hear what was happening. Team came back and I, I, I walked into the cook tent and I was like, I'm, I'm done. And they're like, what do you mean you're done? And I was like, I'm done. And they're like, with the expedition. I mean, dude, hundreds of thousands of dollars, sponsors, like, all of it. And I was like, no, I'm, I'm, like, done climbing and taking pictures. And their jaws dropped. I'm crying, sobbing at the time. They're like, what are you gonna do? And I'm like, move to LA and make movies, you know? So there was like, there was this amplified grandiosity going on. Next day, I get up, I leave, I walk down the valley, I get on a helicopter, I fly back to Kathmandu, I get on a plane, I fly home. And now I'm getting really depressed. You know, there's a sense of freedom in it. I'm like, oh, I freed myself from this, whatever it was. But I get home and then I get this email. My mom texted me really early in the morning and she said, did you get the email from. From Tommy, who was part of the team? And it was just this scathing interpretation of what had happened. You know, vast manipulation, hiding behind mental health, like, all of these things. And I was so depressed at the time, I was like, well, it. I'll just kill myself. Like, I'm done. Peace out. Like. And it wasn't the first time I had had that thought in my life. And so I prepared myself and did all, you know, I, like, took a shower and pulled out a climbing rope and tied a noose and hung it from the ceiling and got up on the stool and, And I, and I was, I almost accidentally did it. And anyway, I ended up obviously not dying and reaching out for help and really dove in very deep into the mental health world. I knew all the words, I knew all the ideas by that point, but I had contextualized it. People who think a lot do that, and they think that the knowledge is the healing and the healing isn't the knowledge at all. It's like, wisdom can't be taught, but knowledge can. Wisdom is the embodiment. And I. And then I didn't know what I was going to do. I had built this identity as a photographer and as a climber and National Geographic this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now none of those things existed. And there was a stark reality and a very deep probing of who am I as a human being if I don't have these anchors and my value can no longer be tied to an external expression, what does that mean for my humanity? So now you see, like taking agency over the situation. What is the truth? The truth is not who am I.

[Simon Sinek]

Not who do others think I am exactly like.

[Corey Richards]

And here's the reality. I now am stepping into an unknown future. Then you get into this, like, I don't, I'm not climbing anymore. I'm not taking photographs. I'm not working for National Geographic. I am not none of these things. So now here I am. These are the hurdles that are impacting me that are from my past. I need to take care of those. I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't have limitless money. How am I going to sort this out? Boom, you've got agency. Then you move into discovery demands endurance. That is a very uncomfortable place to be. You've got financial stresses, you've got long term life path stresses, you've got identity stresses. And I'm sitting there going, this is the most uncomfortable I've ever been. During that time I went through a very, very toxic and also formative beautiful relationship where, you know, I was dating this gal and I again, if you really look at it, I had anchored myself to her beauty. I just thought she was the most beautiful thing in the world. And maybe if I'm standing next to her, that can make up for all the other things that I've let go, you know. And then we moved to Thailand and then I come to find out that she had actually been. And I write about it in the book, so I feel square talking about this with. She knows she approved the chapter, but come to find out that she had been escorting during our relationship. So now there's this heartbreak involved in this now too. And that is a deeply uncomfortable place. So there's loss, there's heartbreak. And I just had to sit in it and I just had to sit in it and explore it. Then you get to, well, let's get curious about this. What are the stories that I'm telling? Where is my certainty in this? And are those certainties true? And what stories are those certainties driving that are anchoring me in beliefs?

[Simon Sinek]

Is that story true?

[Corey Richards]

Exactly.

[Simon Sinek]

Is that story really true?

[Corey Richards]

Is that story? And if it's not true, what does that mean? So now you're in curiosity versus certainty. And out of that Came the book. Because it was the mining of all of this that led me to writing what became the first book. And that starts to be an adaptation. Right. What's interesting is, and I've said this before, I did not start writing that book from a place of service at all. I actually started writing from a place of victimhood. Look at all the things that happened to me. And that went back to the curiosity part where I'm like, wait a minute. You know, like the story with my brother. He did all these things. Well, wait a minute. Was it just him or were you getting something from this? And as soon as I started asking those questions and being willing to write them out despite all the discomfort, I started discovering that there was a deeper truth to all of this. That allowed me to take more and more and more agency, which allowed me to expand the discomfort, which allowed me to be more curious. And then the words start coming out. And it transformed the book from a sob story into an act of service that says, this is my life. You've seen it from this side. Now, let me tell you what's going.

[Simon Sinek]

On, and I hope the lessons I've learned are valuable to you so you don't have to go through what I've gone through.

[Corey Richards]

Even if we don't know each other, you are not alone.

[Simon Sinek]

You're not the first person to go through this.

[Corey Richards]

You're not the first person. It doesn't mean it's not unique and special to you. It feels like it's the only thing, but I just want you to know.

[Simon Sinek]

Vicious cycle into a virtuous one.

[Corey Richards]

Exactly. And so just really recently, this. All of this solidified where I was like, oh, it was really about the discovery of values which came through my men's work. Because it was like, people are like, oh, you've had. You've been so resilient in your life. And I'm like, I was living in survival, which is why I was doing all of the things that were so dark behind the surface. I was just grabbing for candy, you know?

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, so that's where you learned it?

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, that's where I learned it.

[Simon Sinek]

Tell me an experience where you were able to apply it consciously. You're like, ah, okay, I've got these four things. I'm gonna do it. Or is it not like that?

[Corey Richards]

No, no.

[Simon Sinek]

Sounds prescriptive.

[Corey Richards]

This is where it gets back to us right now. 2025, I was in Hawaii with, now my ex partner for the holidays. We get a call from my mom. She says, dad has an internal bleed. He's been sick for five years. You need to come home. It's happening. So we get on a plane. We land on New Year's Eve. I go see my dad. He bounces back, but it's like, okay, this is coming. We come home on the 6th, the fires happen. On the 7th, my entire community gets thrust into triage mode, which amplifies everybody's nervous system. My ex and I break up. She's my best friend at the time. I mean, this is very recent, by the way. This is why it's like, give me some whiskey. My ex and I break up, and she's been my best friend for over a year. So the. The thing goes away. Not by design. It was not in any way overlapping, but there was a woman that came into my life at. Basically at that exact same moment. And it was the first time in my life that I had a deep internal knowing. I was like, this is. Oh. Oh, this is. Like, this is. This is the. The thing that people talk about. It was like I felt something in my gut, in my body that knew. It was like I had found my mirror. I'd found the person. Mom calls again. Now you really got to come home. I get on a plane. She calls on Saturday morning. I get on a plane. I arrive, and dad is definitely dying. My brother, who I hadn't seen four years, shows up. It's totally amicable. We're here in this together. We sit on my dad's bed that night with my cousin and his wife, and we were giving my dad, like, little drawing. The syringe. The little syringe. Little shots of Jameson sort of in. In between his moments of lucidity. And we were all just laughing and telling stories, and. And the next day, we had a conversation just about, hey, you know, like, how long is this going to last? And the hospice people just said, hey, just make them comfortable. You know? Make them comfortable. And that night, it was clear that he was. He was dying. And we were all exhausted. I went to. To lie down for a little bit, and my mom went to take out the recycling or something, and when everybody was out of the room, he died. And, I mean, I'm still very much processing that. And then. And then this gal that I was so deeply falling in love with, truly falling in love in a way that I've never imagined is even possible. And she. She said, you know, she was like, look, I'm still talking to some other people. And I said, okay, like, I can handle that. All I need is communication. And she was going out of town. And I knew she was going to go on a date. And I said, just look, this is going to be hard for me, but, like, please just communicate. And she didn't text or communicate for nine or 10 days. And then when we finally communicated again, it was, I'm going to pursue this other thing. And. And then the totality of everything kind of crashed into me. The fires as a backdrop. Even though the relationship needed to end, she was still my best friend. It wasn't like, wasn't bad. Dad dies, the rocket ship of love, and the fall to earth of heartbreak. And I was sitting there on an airplane going, any one of these events is. Is life altering. And I'm trying to juggle four at the same time every day. I wake up now and I try to take agency. What do I really know? I know my dad's dead. I know it hurts. I know I tasted something so sweet. But that's not here anymore. For now. Maybe it comes back, maybe it doesn't. Doesn't even matter. So I take agency and I sit in the place of discomfort every day. Today's been a terrible one. Terrible. Sometimes I sit in my car and I scream as loud as I can and just cry because it just hurts so fucking much. So I'm in the place of just profound discomfort. And every day as I start to make up new stories about my lack of value or why she left or what the other guy has or whatever it is, or, you know, what my ex is doing now or how I've. Whatever. Anytime I start to come up with a story, it's like there's an elbow block of something so deep in me that says you're trying to create certainty, which is a grasp for comfort, which you know is not what you need because it will erase your agency, you're giving all the power away. And so there's the deep curiosity of, well, now what? You know, now what? And I don't know what the adaptation is, but I know that if I stick to my values, I stay in my integrity. I watch the crutches. I know that what's on the other side of this is profound. And this conversation, in some small or large way, is the adaptation or a piece of it that will lead to the evolution. Anyway.

[Simon Sinek]

Thanks. Thanks for sharing, Jesus.

[Corey Richards]

It's just so, man, it hurts. The whiskey's good.

[Simon Sinek]

Who's sitting with you in this through this?

[Corey Richards]

Well, right now you are like. And this is. I think, obviously this is a more curated environment. But when people sit and don't try to Change it. And they just allow you to be sad without silver lining it. Without. At least this way, you know, at least they just sit and they say that that's gotta hurt. Those people are the most valuable. They're not trying to change it. When you try to change somebody's pain, you are rejecting it. And so I have this group of men here that I have great female friends, too, but this group of men, Treehouse, we talk every day.

[Simon Sinek]

And you have that.

[Corey Richards]

I have that. Yeah. Doesn't mean it hurts less.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

It's just I know that I have a foundational group of people that will always show up.

[Simon Sinek]

The part that needs to be underlined here is that group.

[Corey Richards]

Totally.

[Simon Sinek]

As I said about the story from Jonny Quest, which is, he said, I'm with you. And then I had the strength to keep going.

[Corey Richards]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

Because it's definitely not internal fortitude. I'd already decided I was quitting.

[Corey Richards]

Right, Right.

[Simon Sinek]

You're not looking for anybody to fix anything. You said it's agency. You're not looking for anybody to convince you that everything's fine, everything's not fine, and what you're going through is awful. And this is where I think agency is so fascinating. Or the ability to be okay with discomfort and all your four things. The question I would raise is, does any of us have the internal fortitude to do any of those four things alone? Or the only reason you can do those four things is because you have a person or a network that when you say, this is what's happening to me, they simply say to you, yeah, that sucks. And validate the way you feel so that you have the strength of feeling not alone in taking agency, sitting in discomfort, being curious. I wonder if the foundation of all those four things is the love that people have of you. When you almost ended it, who did.

[Corey Richards]

You call at that moment? I called my. My. My then therapist, now friend, Dear friend. And I just said, help. Just help. I don't know what to do. And then my friend Lori came over, and I remember I was in my underwear. I was just laying on the floor, and she just laid down on top of me and put her head on the small of my back. I remember very distinctly first feeling her hair and then feeling that kind of, like, stickiness because I knew she was crying.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, yeah. The salt on salt.

[Corey Richards]

The salt.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, yeah.

[Corey Richards]

And I remember she just said, don't. Don't go. And, you know, in this situation now, it's never been. I haven't gotten to that place because I have this incredible group of people that exemplifies and amplifies love and support. And they can't do anything. They can't do functionally anything aside from dad back.

[Simon Sinek]

They can't bring the girl back. There's nothing to solve.

[Corey Richards]

There's nothing to solve. And so I think your question is. That is something that I would say, I am certain of, is that we can do fantastic things alone. And ultimately, the road that you take is your own. You have to do the work. You have to do the steps. But those steps are made possible by the community we keep.

[Simon Sinek]

There's an irony in all of your story. There's a deep irony in all of it, which is the glory, the individual glory that comes with climbing a mountain and taking a picture from the top. And yet somebody else took the picture of you or somebody. Somebody else prepped your climbing gear, or somebody else helped get you the sponsor or end. To end this team of people so that one person can have glory. And it's the same with those Olympic medalists, which is they stand on the podium with the gold medal and say, look what I did. And yet the scores of relationships and friends and family and coaches and nutritionists who devoted their lives so that this one person could achieve their dream. And I think the selfishness, what I'm learning, the selfishness is not the desire to climb the mountain or win the gold medal. That's not the selfishness. The selfishness is standing on the top of the mountain or standing on the podium with the gold medal and not saying thank you.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah. Yeah. It's the lack of acknowledgment.

[Simon Sinek]

It's the lack of gratitude is the selfishness. It's not the drive or the accomplishment or the desire to conquer. All of that I'm realizing is fine.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

It's that you stupidly thought you did it alone.

[Corey Richards]

Well, it's easy to erase it at that time.

[Simon Sinek]

You know, look what I did.

[Corey Richards]

Look what I did.

[Simon Sinek]

Look who I am.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

You know.

[Corey Richards]

You know, validate me.

[Simon Sinek]

Validate me. Tell me how beautiful I am. And your friend came over and laid on top of you and did the most beautiful thing any human being could do for another human being. Make them feel not alone.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And it literally saved your life.

[Corey Richards]

And it saved my life. You know, these multiple things exist at once. Right. Like, my mom puts me in the.

[Simon Sinek]

Hospital at a very formative age.

[Corey Richards]

At a very formative age. And I feel abandoned. Right. So I implant this story of abandonment in my mind. In her mind. The story is, I love this child so much. I want him to be safe. And both those stories are existing concurrently.

[Simon Sinek]

And both are true.

[Corey Richards]

And both are true.

[Simon Sinek]

And your point about curiosity is in such a valuable one, which is as opposed to, you did this to me.

[Corey Richards]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

Can you tell me why you chose to do that?

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Not to me.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Like, why did you do that? Honey, I love you so desperately. It was the most excruciating thing I've ever done in my life. You think I want to have a hospital take you away from me? Of course I didn't. But I thought it is the only way to help you to hear the other side.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, but that's the thing. I think that, like, we look at our culture, right? And if we're curious enough about how the stories that people inherited or have told throughout their lives, based on the circumstances of their upbringing and their environment, their. There's deep humanity and compassion there. We don't have to agree with the beliefs that they've arrived at, but we. But by being curious about their stories, we invite them into dialogue, and it makes us all human. And so in that, you start to. You can. You can form bridges between people that have profoundly polar ideas, but in that conversation, we can find each other. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. I think, like, I've thought a lot about purpose because I think people confuse it. We touched on it earlier with accomplishment. People confuse purpose with doing. And purpose is something so much more elemental. So for me, the way I would define my purpose is simply that my purpose is to connect people with a more authentic understanding of themselves. And in doing so, when we come into confrontation with our own paradoxes, our own contradictions, our own hypocrisies, our own messiness, and we start to extend some level of compassion to ourselves, we're. We're almost necessarily forced into the understanding that everybody comes with those same complications. And when we arrive at that point, we're then thrust into compassion by way of empathy. And so if you were to boil purpose down to a single word, for me, it would be compassion. I do that through storytelling.

[Simon Sinek]

You live a very balanced life, kind of. No, no, I don't mean that glibly. I think of it like entrepreneurial experience versus a corporate experience, which is, if you live a corporate life, your lows are not going to be that low, but your highs are not going to be that high. It's very balanced. There's nothing wrong with it. It's good if you choose an entrepreneurial path. Your highs are so high, but, my God, your lows are so Low. But my point is, nature abhors imbalance. Nature pours a vacuum. You always seek equilibrium, and so it's going to find balance. And so if you want to climb Mount Everest, literally there is nowhere higher you can go. Then you have to accept that the balance of that is going a place where there's probably nowhere lower you can go.

[Corey Richards]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

And so you live a very balanced life.

[Corey Richards]

I like that.

[Simon Sinek]

And it's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's just an is thing. And one of the things that happens on the extremes is the lessons are louder.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

The lessons are available throughout the spectrum. Throughout the spectrum. But when you go out to the edges, the lessons are shouted at you rather than explained to you.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, that's great. That's awesome. Yeah, it's so true.

[Simon Sinek]

Beaten into you, you know, as opposed to, like, sitting down and studying for the test.

[Corey Richards]

Oh, yeah, I can read through the lines. I can see there. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Have you not learned this yet?

[Corey Richards]

You know, and so often it's like, no, I haven't. Okay, let's go again. You know, like, serve up another.

[Simon Sinek]

And I think, as a result, your embodiment of those lessons, your clarity of those lessons, your four things, I think are absolutely brilliant. And I will be writing them down at the end of this and keeping them.

[Corey Richards]

And writing a book about it.

[Simon Sinek]

No, no, keeping them on a card next to me.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Because I think they are so profoundly right. And I think the value people like you offer people like us, whether you did it by choice or by accident, to live your life at the top of Everest and just one level above hell, you know, because it's not bottom, but it's pretty close to it, or one step before the end, I mean, is probably more accurate.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Because the lessons are so loud and so exaggerated and so clear to you. And for you, it gives us a clarity that most of us will never have. But the lessons are valuable to all of us. And we will go through trauma and we will go through difficulty, and we will go through discomfort. Most of us, most people not close to what you've gone through. And so the lessons are there. They're just fuzzier and harder to see, which is why we go through them over and over again and repeat the same mistakes over and over again. Because it takes many times before we have an epiphany where we're like, ah, shit. But because it's so loud, we can hear yours and say, thank you.

[Corey Richards]

I really appreciate that. Because even still, there's days there's A lot of times where I'm like, I don't know if any of this really.

[Simon Sinek]

The selfishness.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

I'll tell you what the selfishness is. If there's a selfishness that goes with your life, it's your choice not to share what you've learned, because it would be unbelievably selfish to keep it to yourself so that you can get over your shit.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Oh, good for you.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, good for you. Great job.

[Simon Sinek]

Well done. You know, I'm so happy for you. But that. That would be selfish. And I think the service element is. I learned this. Let me tell you about it.

[Corey Richards]

It's so, so beautifully put.

[Simon Sinek]

And I believe that true purpose.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Like at. You know, we all have our unique why and our purpose and all that, but. Yeah, but the universal truth.

[Corey Richards]

True.

[Simon Sinek]

True purpose in life is the opportunity to serve those who serve others.

[Corey Richards]

I cannot agree more. There is a sort of a list of things that I try to do every day, right. That just. That are. That are sort of foundational to sort of health and wellbeing. And one of them is service. And that can be as simple. It's reframing our ideas around what service looks like, which is it doesn't have to be volunteering at the homeless shelter. Right. Like, that's great. But service can be. To your point earlier, calling a friend and listening without trying to change anything.

[Simon Sinek]

Your men's group who just holds space for you is service. Your friend who came and lay on you act of service and cried on top of you is an act of extreme service. And she didn't try to fix you or change you or solve any problem that was going through your mind. She simply did the most beautiful thing of make you feel not alone. And your willingness to come here and share things that most people would probably keep to themselves. And some of the things that you've shared, people would keep to themselves.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, for sure.

[Simon Sinek]

Shame, embarrassment, whatever reason. And the courage you have to share the lessons is the most selfless thing I think you can ever do.

[Corey Richards]

And the paradox is I had to go do all the things to get it. All the selfish things, I mean. Or I didn't have to.

[Simon Sinek]

No, you chose to.

[Corey Richards]

I chose to.

[Simon Sinek]

You chose to for good reason.

[Corey Richards]

I look back now and I go, wow. You know, the shift in my mind, first and foremost, the realization that I, like we talked briefly, hit on is like, I don't think failure really exists.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah. Say more about that.

[Corey Richards]

Well, just like you said, in the.

[Simon Sinek]

History of the world, there's never been a failure.

[Corey Richards]

In the history of the universe, there's never been a failure. There's been transitions, there's been change. A company doesn't fail. A company ceases to be profitable or viable in whatever market or economy they're in. All of the learning from the building of that business and the disintegration of that business simply splinters into new building and disintegration. It is literally the ouroboros. I don't know if I'm saying that right, but it's life eating itself. It's the snake eating its tail. The buy in to this is that.

[Simon Sinek]

Or it's the thing that dies and disintegrates and then gives life and then that dies and disintegrates and gives life. And it's circle of life stuff.

[Corey Richards]

It's the circle of life. So there is not. And once you people say, well, that's a semantic argument and I don't agree. It's a consciousness shift. You can't fail.

[Simon Sinek]

I don't think it's a semantic argument. I think it's finite and infinite games. Yeah. I think it's, as you said, it's not the end, it's the transition.

[Corey Richards]

And the transition is deeply uncomfortable.

[Simon Sinek]

It's not the end of the relationship. It's the transition into something different, into.

[Corey Richards]

Something different, into a new understanding.

[Simon Sinek]

Better or worse is, who knows?

[Corey Richards]

Worse again, that's so interesting. Like, I mean, I'm saying.

[Simon Sinek]

I'm not, I'm not yet. They're all temporary states anyway.

[Corey Richards]

Well, it's. And their value applications and their stories. Right. So there are no good or bad decisions. There are decisions and results. And then depending on the level of comfort that we have in the result.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

We apply the label or the story, good or bad.

[Simon Sinek]

And both are temporary.

[Corey Richards]

They're all.

[Simon Sinek]

I love when people say, you know, we're the number one, blah, blah, blah. And I always say for now.

[Corey Richards]

For now.

[Simon Sinek]

You know, it's like, I'm happy for now.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

I'm sad for now.

[Corey Richards]

The point is not to escape pain.

[Simon Sinek]

No.

[Corey Richards]

What would life be without pain?

[Simon Sinek]

And I think that yours more extreme than mine and ours more extreme or less extreme than others. Which is the experiences that I had that led me to start with. Why? For example, I never want to go through those things ever again. But I'm glad they happened. And I'm sure, like the experiences that you've shared today, and I know there's others, I don't think you want to relive any of them.

[Corey Richards]

No.

[Simon Sinek]

But Are you glad they happened?

[Corey Richards]

I love my brother so much. And I remember when I woke up, it was a day. I remember waking up and going, oh, my God. He's my greatest guide. The biggest gift I've ever been given in my entire life is that relationship. That man in my heart lay down at his feet and thank him every day. Because had the tapestry of our relationship not been so knotted and intertwined in the way that it was, I wouldn't be the person that I am. And so it's extending that gratitude to all the circumstances of life and being able to see it in its totality and settle into the fact that it's making you who you are. And that is an ever changing, ever evolving process that frees you from the bondage of blame, shame and victimhood and prolonged suffering.

[Simon Sinek]

I could talk to you for hours. Corey, thanks so much for coming.

[Corey Richards]

Thanks for having me. This was.

[Simon Sinek]

I appreciate it.

[Corey Richards]

Awesome. Really, really great.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah. I have no desire to climb Mount Everest. I'd like to go to Base Camp and just sit and look at the beautiful mountain.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

But that's about it.

[Corey Richards]

Let's go. Let's walk to Kalipatar. In fact, you don't even need to go to Base Camp. Kalipatar is this area where you go up and there's a view. It's the classic view where you get of the three mountains if you go to Base Camp. It's dirty, it's crowded, people are sick, and you can't even see Everest. Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

So then I'll go to where we're at. I've always wanted to go to Kalipatar.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah. Yeah, we'll listen to some yak bells and spin some prayer wheels and drink tea.

[Simon Sinek]

That sounds good.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, it's great. It's perfect.

[Simon Sinek]

And I can get a sponsorship.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, we can get a sponsor who wants to sponsor us right now.

[Simon Sinek]

Sponsorship to go to the bottom of the mountain.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Simon Sinek]

Let's see your high performance. Your high performance clothing. Do with. Do with the bottom.

[Corey Richards]

We can raise. We can raise some money for cancer.

[Simon Sinek]

Research along the way and inspire children all over the world.

[Corey Richards]

Inspire children all over the world. It'll be fabulous.

[Simon Sinek]

If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, SimonSinek.com for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by Lindsey Garbinius, David Jha and Devin Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Ruderschan.