The Climb Out of Pain is Taller Than Everest with National Geographic photographer Cory Richards (PART 1)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Climb Out of Pain is Taller Than Everest with National Geographic Photographer Cory Richards (PART 1)"

Podcast Information:

• Title: A Bit of Optimism
• Host: Simon Sinek
• Guest: Cory Richards, National Geographic Photographer and Filmmaker
• Episode: The Climb Out of Pain is Taller Than Everest (PART 1)
• Release Date: April 22, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling first part of his conversation with Cory Richards, Simon Sinek delves deep into the intersection of extreme adventure and personal trauma. Cory, renowned for his breathtaking photography and achievements such as climbing Mount Everest without supplemental oxygen, shares his journey not just to the summits of the world but also through the tumultuous peaks of his own mental health.

Early Life and Family Dynamics

Cory begins by recounting his volatile childhood in Salt Lake City, highlighting the early onset of mental health challenges.

• Childhood Struggles:

  • Timestamp [11:13]: "I was volatile. Like, I was a moody kid."
  • Family Influence: Despite having supportive parents who were both educators, Cory and his brother experienced intense sibling rivalry marked by rage and violence, leading to interactions with child protective services.

• Adolescence and Mental Health:

  • Timestamp [14:37]: At 13, Cory was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, leading to extended hospitalizations and medication that left him feeling "dull" and "sedated."
  • Impact of Trauma: A particularly dark period at age 15 involved staying with a stranger, an experience Cory describes as both a search for belonging and a profound abuse, deeply influencing his views on sex and sexuality.

Introduction to Climbing and Photography

Climbing and photography emerged as Cory's coping mechanisms, providing both an escape and a means of expression.

• Reconnecting with Climbing:

  • Timestamp [20:02]: "Climbing was an expression of what was happening inside of me."
  • Photography as a Barrier: Through his lens, Cory found a way to witness the world without being directly engulfed by it, serving as a shield against emotional turmoil.

• First Expedition:

  • Timestamp [04:10]: Cory narrates his harrowing experience climbing Gashabrum II in Pakistan, where he faced extreme cold and a life-threatening avalanche. This ordeal not only elevated his career, landing him on the cover of National Geographic but also marked the beginning of his deep dive into mental health issues.

Climbing Mount Everest Without Oxygen

Mount Everest stands as a pinnacle achievement in Cory's career, symbolizing both triumph and tribulation.

• The Expedition:

  • Timestamp [25:44]: Cory explains that his motivation to climb Everest isn't merely to conquer a physical peak but to find purpose, fulfillment, and validation.
  • Survival vs. Purpose: He reflects on how extreme sports can be both a survival mechanism and a way to mask inner pain, stating, "Climbing is inherently selfish. I could not agree more with you." ([29:32])

• Mental Health Implications:

  • Timestamp [35:29]: The conversation shifts to how Cory's experiences on Everest have both fortified his resilience and exacerbated his mental health struggles. He acknowledges, "Our wounds become our weapons in both positive and negative ways." ([36:07])

Coping Mechanisms and Resilience

Cory discusses the delicate balance between using climbing as a coping mechanism and the potential for it to become maladaptive.

• Crutches and Coping:

  • Timestamp [02:19]: The dialogue explores the concept of "crutches"—behaviors or habits used to self-soothe. Cory emphasizes, "Crutches aren't necessarily bad so long as you see them for what they are."
  • Resilience vs. Reaction: He differentiates between resilience, which involves letting go and adapting based on personal values, and reaction, which is survival-driven and lacks a value-based foundation. "Resilience is about letting go." ([44:34])

• Letting Go vs. Quitting:

  • Timestamp [43:16]: The conversation touches on the importance of discerning when to persist and when to step away. Cory asserts, "Resilience is not about holding on. Resilience is about letting go."

Reflections on Purpose and Validation

The discussion delves into the psychology behind seeking external validation through extreme achievements.

• External Validation:

  • Timestamp [25:58]: Cory admits, "It was always about me because I felt like, look, look at what I can do and validate me."

• Impact of Accomplishments:

  • Timestamp [31:12]: Reflecting on his Everest climb, Cory confesses, "My rock bottom was the summit of Everest because I realized there's literally no place else I can go." This highlights the paradox of using extreme endeavors to escape inner pain, ultimately confronting it.

Writing and Sharing His Story

Cory's journey extends beyond climbing, as he ventures into writing to share his experiences and insights.

• Challenges of Writing:

  • Timestamp [37:27]: Cory discusses the difficulties he faced while writing "Leaders Eat Last," illustrating his struggle with the process and the personal cost it entailed.

• Responsibility to Share:

  • Timestamp [37:56]: He narrates a pivotal moment when a friend's support inspired him to persevere in completing his book, underscoring the theme of interconnectedness and support systems in overcoming personal challenges.

Conclusion and Upcoming Topics

As the conversation draws to a close, Simon Sinek hints at continuing the discussion in Part 2, promising further exploration of Cory's journey out of pain and towards mental well-being.

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Notable Quotes

1. On Crutches and Self-Soothing:

   • "Crutches aren't necessarily bad so long as you see them for what they are." — Cory Richards [02:19]

2. On Resilience:

   • "Resilience is not about holding on. Resilience is about letting go." — Cory Richards [44:42]

3. On Personal Validation:

   • "It was always about me because I felt like, look, look at what I can do and validate me." — Cory Richards [25:58]

4. On Climbing Everest:

   • "My rock bottom was the summit of Everest because I realized there's literally no place else I can go." — Cory Richards [31:12]

5. On Letting Go vs. Quitting:

   • "Resilience is about letting go. You have to step into discomfort, you have to step into discovery through discomfort." — Cory Richards [44:43]

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Key Takeaways

• Intersection of Adventure and Trauma: Extreme physical endeavors like climbing can serve as both coping mechanisms and potential exacerbators of underlying mental health issues.

• Coping Mechanisms: Understanding and contextualizing personal "crutches" are essential for maintaining mental health without falling into maladaptive behaviors.

• Resilience Through Letting Go: True resilience involves letting go of rigid struggles and adapting based on personal values, rather than merely holding on through force of will.

• Purpose vs. Validation: Achievements pursued for external validation can mask deeper personal struggles, emphasizing the need for intrinsic purpose and self-awareness.

• Support Systems: Connections and support from others play a crucial role in overcoming personal challenges and achieving personal growth.

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Stay Tuned for Part 2: In the next episode, Simon Sinek and Cory Richards will continue their deep dive into the journey of climbing out of pain, exploring further insights into leadership, personal growth, and the quest for genuine optimism.

Transcript

[Simon Sinek]

Feel like you're just guessing your way through work and life lately? You're not alone. Join Simon today at 5pm Eastern for a live Q&A on Simon Sinek.com where he'll be answering your questions on how to lead through uncertainty in every part of your life. Bring your questions and let's find the answers together. And right now, podcast listeners get 30% off a subscription to the Optimism Library on SimonSinek.com when you sign up using the code POD30. That's P O D30. This code expires today, so subscribe now and we'll see you there.

[Corey Richards]

So you are officially the first guest who, when I said, would you like a drink? You said, I'd love a scotch. Yeah. And so you're preparing yourself for what this conversation might be and you are actually drinking.

[Unnamed Guest]

But let's be clear, you know, you didn't pour.

[Corey Richards]

No, I didn't pour a tumbler of it.

[Unnamed Guest]

It wasn't like drunk history.

[Corey Richards]

No, it's not drunk history. Let's do the drunk of your life. What happens after you reach the top? There's only one place to go. Corey Richards has literally reached the top of the world. As a National Geographic photographer and filmmaker, he climbed Mount Everest without oxygen. He's also the first American to climb an 8,000 meter or 26,000 foot peak during the winter. You may know him from the iconic cover of National Geographic, the one with the selfie he took after he survived an avalanche. But there's a twist. After all that success, Cory did not find peace. Instead, he found chaos. Cory's journey is about more than conquering mountains. It was raw, vulnerable, and deeply moving in ways I did not expect. In fact, we talked for so long that we decided to cut his episode into two. It's about conquering mental health, identity, and what happens when we mistake our biggest goals for our true purpose. This is a bit of optimism. Speaking of whiskey, you put in a tobacco thing.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

You got a glass of whiskey?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, I've got all the.

[Corey Richards]

You got all the things.

[Unnamed Guest]

All the crutches.

[Corey Richards]

All the crutches, all the pathologies.

[Unnamed Guest]

People think that like, oh, he's just totally, you know, he's gotten rid of all this. I mean, I think that's one of the points of this, is the crutches aren't necessarily bad so long as you see them as for what they are. Like, I'm self soothing. My nervous system is a wreck right now, you know, and like, so long as it doesn't go down, this like highly Destructive path. I think giving yourself some grace around that is actually probably far more beneficial.

[Corey Richards]

We're jumping right in. Yeah, of course. I think you're 100% right. And I think the. The crutches are not the unhealthy thing. It's that some of the crutches are unhealthy.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

Right. Because you. Maybe you smoked, but now you just chew gum.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Corey Richards]

So. Or maybe you did X. You know, you did something very unhealthy.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

And now you just go to the gym every day.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Corey Richards]

You know, you go for a run every day. Like, they're all forms. They can all be forms of crutches.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Corey Richards]

And so I think you're right. I think we confuse. Crutches are good. Yeah, not all crutches are good.

[Unnamed Guest]

Not all crutches are good. But also, like, to be fair, substances in moderate doses are also not terrible. You know, like. Yeah, they're totally enjoyable. It's just having your value system or barometer set to be like, okay, well, you know, am I in a storm now? Or am I just kind of like, am I just riding the edge of the weather?

[Corey Richards]

Okay, so that's a perfect preview now. So let's go backwards.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, let's go backwards.

[Corey Richards]

Why do you have crutches? Why is your nervous system shot? Didn't you, like, survive an avalanche?

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, my God, I love it. It's so funny. I survive an avalanche so I can tell the story.

[Corey Richards]

I mean, sure, let's hear it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Let's hear it. Everybody wants that story, so let's do it.

[Corey Richards]

It's like, unfortunately, you're like Aretha Franklin. You have to sing response.

[Unnamed Guest]

You gotta play the hits, you gotta sing respons. It's a very important. It's like a very interesting point of the story because I went to climb this mountain called Gashabram 2, which is a mountain. It's the 13th highest mountain in the world. It's in Pakistan. And just to give people some context, I've, you know, I. I can run through this because people need to know there are 14 mountains in the world that are higher than 8,000 meters. That is roughly 26,240ft or something like that. One is in India, eight are on the border of Nepal and Tibet, and then five are in Pakistan. After they were all climbed in the early 80s, the Polish, who are some of the best climbers in the world, were just like, all right, so those were hard. Now let's just make it harder. Let's go climb all of them in the winter and so all of the nine south of Pakistan had been climbed by 2000, the winter of 2010, 11. And I got invited by.

[Corey Richards]

Which is surprisingly late. Yeah, like, only the past sort of, you know, 10, 15 years.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, exactly. None of the ones in Pakistan have been climbed.

[Corey Richards]

Wow.

[Unnamed Guest]

And so I got invited by a guy named Simone Moro, who's an Italian climber, and another guy, Dennis Arupco. Dennis didn't invite me, but Dennis became a very good. He's Russian. And he would just sit there and be like, but, but, Simone, why we bring stupid American boy? Not, bro, I'm standing right next to you. You know, like. He's like, yes, Cory, be quiet. Men talking. You know, like. And I was 29 at the time. And by the way, Simone has this voice that is just epic. He's. And I'm not exaggerating. He talk like this the whole time. Very, very funny man. And he. And I tell the story of sitting in the tent with him, and he's like. I mean, I've told this story a lot, but it's hysterical. It's worth repeating. He's like, cody, you must come to Italy. Most beautiful beaches in the world. And I'm like, bro, what? And he's like, most beautiful beaches ever seen. And I'm like, what are you. And he's like. And I was like, oh, he's talking about beaches. Like, beaches. All right. Yeah, yeah, okay, cool. The beaches. I'll come see the beaches. You know, I'll come to the Amalfi or what? I was just. Most beautiful beaches in the world. So anyway, we're in the middle of Pakistan in winter. 26 years, 16 expeditions have tried and failed to climb one of these mountains in the winter. People have died, whatever. I didn't really know that these were just like my heroes. So I was like, yeah, of course I'll go. And I wasn't even planning on going to the summit necessarily. They just wanted sort of. I was on the North Face team at the time. And. And so we end up climbing it. Like, we get this very, very narrow weather window. We leave the tent. It's minus 51 centigrade in the tent in the morning, or I guess at night, 11 o'clock. We climb through the night on February 2nd, and we get to the top, and up there it's about minus 80, the weather. Centigrade. So it's colder than that Fahrenheit at that point. Yeah, yeah. So you're like. And there's really no way to calculate it other than, like, it's colder than it was a lot. And there's a lot more wind. So. So we get to the top, the weather window starts to close, and we get hit by this incredible storm on the way down. And we make it back to our tent that night, just barely. We make it down to Camp one the next day, and you're in this huge glacial valley. Big, big glacier with huge crevasses. And on either side there are these big mountains. And now they have three feet of snow on them. And the wind's been blowing, so it's created a very hazardous situation. And we're, we're just left the tent and you have to go sort of in this FL area and very low cloud ceiling. And I hear this like, crack. And I'm just, I'm like, I know what that is. And it's an avalanche. And I look over my shoulder, I see it coming. I say run, but there's no way to run. I mean, you're in waist deep snow and with heavy backpacks on and, and the, the, the avalanche just hit us and pushed us. We were mostly taken by the air blast because we were on very flat ground, which is also very, very powerful.

[Corey Richards]

And the air blast is the wind that the wind is pushing.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah. So it just picks us up and throws us 500ft. And of course, in my mind I'm like, okay, I'm dying. Everything's like, I'm dying. And long story short, we all ended up on top. I would say, miraculously, we got thrown over these big crevasses and there's ice chunks everywhere around it. And I immediately after, as soon as I could get my camera out, I turned it on and I. And I took this video of me crying, just like sobbing, because I think there was this sort of dissociation. I was trying to get away from the experience. So I put a camera between me and it. So, you know, there's always been this barrier that's very interesting about photography is that there's always literally a barrier between you and what's happening. You're not present, you're witnessing. And then about an hour later, I took this other photo of me because I could just feel my face. And it's just me looking at the camera and I've got all this ice all over my beard and just I look shell shocked, very confused. And that photo became arguably my most famous photo ever.

[Corey Richards]

Cover of National Geographic.

[Unnamed Guest]

Put on the COVID of National Geographic. This whole trip opened the door to National Geographic. It opened the door to the sort of the skyrocketing of my career. And at the same time, because of complex post traumatic stress, all of the stuff that happened in childhood, I experienced a profound and prolonged episode of ptsd. And that was really the beginning of starting to dive in really deep to the mental health journey. But it took, you know, really up until I was about 41. So. So just two years ago, you know, it took. It took over a decade for me to start to learn the language. Then I could talk about it, then I was hiding behind it. Then I was sort of using it as a faux shield of vulnerability, but I hadn't really internalized it. And then. And then finally the embodiment came, right? But it was also. So I look at the photo. It's also kind of what fractured my life in that it. It elevated me to a place where I could hide behind the external. And there was this talk about no values, right? Because now I'm in survival mode, which is what PTSD is. So I'm constantly just trying to survive and sust while living this high stimulation external life and being eaten inside in my internal life and using all of these coping mechanisms to try to calm that down. So that's where, you know, the problem drinking comes in. That's where the sex addiction comes in. And then you start hiding these secrets, and you're harboring all this deep shame. Secrets are the termites of intimacy and love. The more secrets you hold, the more it will erode and fall apart, and eventually the tension between what you're projecting and who you are will become so great that you collapse.

[Corey Richards]

What kind of kid were you?

[Unnamed Guest]

I was. I was volatile. Meaning that, like, I was a moody kid. And my. So just as a piece of the backstory, my mom took me to see a psychologist when I was one. Right. So there's this very deep story of mental health that comes on the scene pretty much immediately.

[Corey Richards]

Were you the first kid?

[Unnamed Guest]

I was the second. So my brother, who factors very heavily into this story also, he was just more self assured and more sturdy, but that also kind of made him an island. We had a really marvelous early childhood. Like my parents were. They were awesome.

[Corey Richards]

And where'd you grow up?

[Unnamed Guest]

Salt Lake City. Okay, where'd you grow up?

[Corey Richards]

All over the place. But my formative years were in New Jersey, outside of New York City.

[Unnamed Guest]

Okay, what exit?

[Corey Richards]

Two off of nine. Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. So, I mean, we, we. We started skiing when we were two. We started climbing when we were five. And the whole early childhood development piece, at least externally, was really beautiful. And we. We spent a lot of time outdoors. Both my parents were in education, and yet there were some things going on that laid the groundwork very much for what I encountered later, which was very tumultuous adolescence, which we'll get to in just a second. But, you know, my mom had postpartum depression with both of us, which, if you look at the sort of the psychological machinations of. Of early childhood development, has a profound impact, specifically in attachment styles and how we relate to our parents and getting our emotional needs met and finding coping mechanisms to navigate that disconnect. And my mom also worked full time, so my dad was kind of our primary caregiver because he was a schoolteacher. So. So we formed this very tight bond with dad early on, and my mother did nothing wrong. I'm not. There's no blame here at all. It's just the way it was. And then as we got into our adolescence, and both of us were smart kids, right. So we were accelerated learners. Both of us went to high school two years early, and both of us were kind of smashing, getting good grades. And then there was this development of violence. It was very rageful.

[Corey Richards]

And you were in the family between.

[Unnamed Guest]

My brother and I.

[Corey Richards]

Okay.

[Unnamed Guest]

And mostly aimed at me, which for the longest time, I was like, oh, poor me. Look, my brother kicked the. Out of me. No, brothers fight. It's normal. But this was different. It was very rage fueled. And. And so to the point of, like, child protective services being called. Right. Like, it was. It was dark.

[Corey Richards]

Right. More than just.

[Unnamed Guest]

It was more than brothers fighting. And so that had a deep impact on me, as it did on him. But. But I, you know, I was like, oh, he beat me up. And that was the story for a long time. And then really, in reflection, looking back on it, I was like, well, yes. And I learned that if he beat me up, I got a lot of attention. So then I started feeding into the. My own cycle of violence or abuse, if you want to call it that. And again, there's no. I don't blame my brother in any way, shape or form. It was just the dynamic that was there. And so my grades went from straight A's to dropping out, basically. I got put on medication. I got hospitalized.

[Corey Richards]

How old are you at this time?

[Unnamed Guest]

I was like 13 when I got hospitalized the first time.

[Corey Richards]

What was the diagnosis?

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, it became bipolar too.

[Corey Richards]

Okay.

[Unnamed Guest]

I got put in this long term inpatient, outpatient care facility. I was there for eight months. I ran away three times. That's where I got put on my My bipolar medication, which sort of sedated.

[Corey Richards]

Me, impacted your personality.

[Unnamed Guest]

I mean, I was just dull, you know, glassy eyed and sort of sleeping all day. And when we had school time at this facility, I'd like go under the table and just. They'd be like, do your schoolwork. And I was kind of like, no. You know, and there's nothing, there's nothing they can do. They can keep extracting privileges. But ultimately, when you learn that rules.

[Corey Richards]

Are arbitrary and have no teeth.

[Unnamed Guest]

And have no teeth. Right. Like you just do whatever you want. And that was part of it. So I ran away three times. Every time I'd come back. The second time was I was out for quite a while before they found me. And there was a really dark experience that happened where I ended up staying at this, this guy's house, squatting. I was 15 at the time, and he was 19 and he was gay. And, you know, some people would qualify what happened as rape. Mothers would just say sexual abuse. And I write about it in more of a. Like, it was complicated. It was complicated because there was my own curiosity and yet there was this profound power dynamic where I was staying in a stranger's home. And so it was as if I was trying to find something.

[Corey Richards]

There was also sort of some sense of artificial safety. Right. For sure, you left, you're in a home, you're lonely, you're with a person. I mean, yes, you're projecting a lot of need on somebody.

[Unnamed Guest]

Exactly. And we know, like, yes, we think of a 19 year old as an adult and a 15 year old as a child, but really we're both children. And so I think it was a search for belonging on my part too, because I really didn't feel like I belonged anywhere. They didn't want me at home. So that almost definitely had a profound psychological impact on me, especially as it relates to sex and sexuality, which I'm sure we'll get to later.

[Corey Richards]

I can pour you another drink.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. When do I start crying? And then the third time I ran away, my dad, who was very big on agency, was like, all right, but you can't be at home. And so this is when you're 15. I was 15.

[Corey Richards]

Did your parents just not know what to do?

[Unnamed Guest]

They tried everything, man. Yeah, they tried everything. And then that's why there's no blame. I mean, like, what do you do? At some point there is a threshold that gets crossed and this is outside.

[Corey Richards]

The borders of, you know, normal child rearing.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right, right. And so I ran away and then I ended up Being on the street, mostly kept off the street, but, you know, I'd stay with friends, right? But I do say I was homeless because I. I didn't have a home. And there were. And there were times where I was squatting and. Or in the park or whatever. And then finally I got taken in by a. Some family friends in Idaho. And I stayed there for eight months. I got my GED when I was 16. I was like. I was like, was this all I was supposed to learn in high school? You know, it's just like, this is. It's ridiculous how. How surface that test is. But anyway, I'm happy we have that system to. To provide people with a good enough diploma, which is what GD stands for. So. And then I ended up in the hospital again. I came home, my brother got. And I got in a huge blowout. I mean, it took three minutes. And we were on the front lawn and. And I. You know, I remember I. That. That sense of my mind being out of control when. When these violent eruptions would happen, my brain would speed up to a place where I just. It was like there was like, energy in me that had to move and I didn't know what to do. And I remember I stood up and I just kicked out the windows in the car that I was driving at the time. And. And I drove up to my mom's office, and I said, I need to go back to the hospital. And it was at that time, finally where my parents were like, corey, what do you need? And it actually gave me a sense of agency. I ended up living with my aunt and uncle in Seattle. So Now I was 17, got three jobs because that's what bipolar people do. It's all or nothing. Right? And then that's where I.

[Corey Richards]

It's all and nothing.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, all and nothing.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Which is. Yeah, wow, great point. But that's where I kind of rediscovered climbing. I mean, we had been so indoctrinated with it. Like, that's what my dad read to us as children, was climbing books. And so I had always kept an identity of being an outdoors person. And my uncle took half of every paycheck. That's like rent. And then at the end, he was like, look, I'm going to give you all this money back if you choose an experience to spend it on. And I chose to go climbing. And right before I went on that trip, I asked my mom if I could borrow her old camera. So she. That was. That was. That. And that was sort of the. The entree into. And that's not resolution by any means, but that's the very abridged version.

[Corey Richards]

And so where'd you go climbing? Where did you go for your adventure?

[Unnamed Guest]

It's really interesting because through all that time, my parents were still very supportive. It wasn't as if they checked out.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

They just. It was like the guiding arm from a distance. So actually, I think their, their system ended up really working.

[Corey Richards]

Because you didn't feel alone.

[Unnamed Guest]

I felt alone. I felt very isolated. But I didn't feel outside of. Totally outside of the bounds of safety.

[Corey Richards]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

It still brought up questions of belonging.

[Corey Richards]

Sure.

[Unnamed Guest]

And it still brought up questions of value and do I matter? But it wasn't like there was a container for me.

[Corey Richards]

And so what did that climb do for you?

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, we, I, I so that all that to say. I called a whole bunch of my dad's old climbing partners, like, old guys. They're like, in their 60s at that point. And I was like, do you guys want to go climbing and go to this place called the Ruth Gorge in the Alaska Range? And they're like, yeah. So we just did very, very easy stuff. But it just changed. It was as if photography was a way to tether myself to this world that I felt like I could see but never touch. And climbing was, in some ways, an expression of what was happening inside of me. And so marrying those two, being an artistic kid, always gravitating towards art, that was the only place that my brain shut the fuck up. It was like a perfect match. And it also gave me some level of motivation to keep a job, take care of myself.

[Corey Richards]

So what was your job? Did you become a photographer?

[Unnamed Guest]

Eventually. Eventually. I mean, I started calling myself a photographer at 18, but, like, I don't think I made money until I was, like, 24, you know? So, I mean, did you always know you were gonna write?

[Corey Richards]

No, I was never a writer. Yeah, I was never a writer. I knew I could write because I did well on essays in college, but I'd never written anything long form.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

I think the longest thing I ever wrote was probably like. I mean, I purposely didn't want to do a thesis because I didn't want to write 100 pages.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Corey Richards]

It just sounded like too much work.

[Unnamed Guest]

So what was the first long form?

[Corey Richards]

The book that I wrote.

[Unnamed Guest]

Start with. Why?

[Corey Richards]

Because I had to. Yeah, because I had a contract that said I had to.

[Unnamed Guest]

Isn't it?

[Corey Richards]

Nobody knew that I could. I didn't know that I could.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's actually interesting. A lot of the men's work I do is Actually, this guy, Kenny Kane, who lives here, started our men's group based on a lot of the start with why principles and just cause. Right. Where it's like, very cool. Yeah. So it actually works. It's really interesting that, that I'm here with you because that's, it's. It's so much of like the idea that like the just cause part of it would be there's an assumption that the internal emotional lives of men is incredibly challenging and the space for that expression is incredibly limited. Right. And the why would be to, you know, basically create a safe space where men can be seen and heard in a context that is both gentle and hard, where it creates accountability. So you can see it's all. It's was all modeled after that. In some ways. It's really cool.

[Corey Richards]

That's neat.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

I love finding out, you know, it's work goes off and it does its own thing when it's different world and you never know where it's going to go. It's lovely to hear. Thank you.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's amazing.

[Corey Richards]

So at what point did you. I'm very curious. When you decided you were going to be, quote, unquote, a climber. Yeah, like a. Is that a career? It's like I'm a professional climber. Does that mean sponsors and things?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah. So as I started climbing more and more and certainly taking pictures more and more, then you could go to bigger and bigger places, bigger mountain ranges, and the climbs get harder, they get more severe, and by virtue of that, obviously you get better and then you get sponsorship dollars. And so.

[Corey Richards]

And how do they. What is. I'm just.

[Unnamed Guest]

No, no, no.

[Corey Richards]

And I'll tell you why. I have a strange point of view about climbing in a moment, but which is. And like, how do. What is the value to them of giving you sponsorship dollars? Like, they need to get some value from that, as companies is like photographs of you standing on peaks in their gear kind of thing, basically.

[Unnamed Guest]

I mean, it's marketing value.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right. You're basically a glorified raincoat salesman.

[Corey Richards]

So you're okay.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

And so you wear their stuff, you take a picture of yourself. You give them the pictures. That's what they want. So they want you to be a successful climber.

[Unnamed Guest]

They want you to be a successful climber. And they also want you to do the harder and bigger and more extreme. And by virtue of that, the more dangerous.

[Corey Richards]

Right. The colder, more rugged, because obviously clothes.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right, exactly. So you. You naturally push that envelope further and further and Further. And then, you know, they get more sort of like cool cred.

[Corey Richards]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

Like look what our athletes did.

[Corey Richards]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

You know whose athletes are big logos. Yeah, yeah, we called it LPSI logos per square inch. You want it to maximize your lpsi. You know, I've got a bank logo here, a camera logo.

[Corey Richards]

Like a race car driver.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. In a spacesuit. In a down spacesuit.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's really.

[Corey Richards]

So. So you're now a legit professional climber.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

So what did you get out of it? Other than money? I mean, money, money fuels the sport. Right? Because it's an expensive sport. It requires time and tickets and gear and you know, infrastructure. Infrastructure and planning and all of this stuff where if you had a day job, you, you could only do less technical, less difficult things in general. Hobbyist versus a professional. Yeah, so, so, but I understand that as a job. But, but did you, what did you get out of it? Like, what was the reason you wanted to go climb the mountain? Is it like Edmund Hillary because it was there?

[Unnamed Guest]

No, I've, I've always hated that answer. I think it's so lazy. But I like, look, I love Ed Hillary, right? Like climbed Everest. It and Tenzin Norgay and Tenzing. I think Tenzing technically probably did it.

[Corey Richards]

First, you know, probably did a few times.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

So what I got out of climbing was a sense of purpose, a sense of fulfillment and a sense of expression. I also got a deep sense of validation where the more notoriety I got, the more I could mistake external validation for love.

[Corey Richards]

Because it felt good.

[Unnamed Guest]

It feels good.

[Corey Richards]

Just like getting attention when you were a kid.

[Unnamed Guest]

Of course. And the other thing that's so interesting about it is that so often people with chaotic childhoods, violent childhoods, traumatic childhoods, gravitate towards very high risk endeavors because their minds are uniquely adapted to it. We don't have any future forecasting. So it's like, hold my beer, I'm going to try something, you know, and hey man, watch this.

[Corey Richards]

Terrible for life. Fantastic for extreme sports.

[Unnamed Guest]

Exactly. And so you can see there is some maladaptation there for sure. It very like it. It, it, it works. It works. It works.

[Corey Richards]

No future forecasting, which means it limits the fear because you limit the, you limit the ability to even conceive of what could go wrong.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, yeah, because if you raise like I don't know what's coming next. Well, okay, so I don't know what's coming next.

[Corey Richards]

But there's also. This is where I have. So I went on a trek with A bunch of people in the Atlas Mountains in Morocco.

[Unnamed Guest]

Okay. Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

One of my boots got some water in it. As we got higher, it got colder, and I was like. And I could see the. It wasn't that high. It was right over there. And I was like, I'm going to. I'm just gonna wait here for you guys.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

You know.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

They're like, don't you want to make it to the top? I'm like, I'm good. They're like, but don't you want the picture? Don't you want the view? I'm like, I'm pretty sure it's the same view.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

And it's just a little bit higher.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

I'm going to sit here. I'm good.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

And while I was sitting, waiting for them to come back down, sort of thought about. It's such a strange thing that the reason they wanted to go to the peak was to tell other people that they made it to the peak, or they wanted the photograph to show that they made it to the peak. And it's a very selfish pursuit because no one derives any value whatsoever other than you getting to say I did or show somebody else I did. Right. Maybe this is my asshole. Ish point of view.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, you're an asshole, but I don't think that's an asshole point of view.

[Corey Richards]

I mean, one must make the distinctions. Olympic athletes, not team sports, but individual sports. When you talk to Olympic athletes, the medal contenders, and you ask them, why did you do it? They're like, well, I want to inspire the children. Not a single vision board has pictures of inspired children. All the vision boards are them standing on podiums with gold medals around their necks. And it's one of the reasons, I think, that when their careers come to an end, Michael Phelps becomes the most medaled Olympian in history, immediately, depression. Andre Agassi becomes the most celebrated tennis player in history, immediately depression. Because they confuse purpose with a goal. The thrill is the dopamine hit, and it's an extreme dopamine hit because it's difficult to climb a difficult mountain that if you actually make it to the peak, that surge of dopamine is, I'm sure, overwhelmingly wonderful, magical, intoxicating, beautiful, but it goes away, which is why you have to climb another mountain. And it's not like love that sustains.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

And this is why I have sort of a cynical view of these things and find them relatively selfish, because no one derives any benefit from that dopamine other than you. And if you are inspiring children, it's it was a lucky strike extra.

[Unnamed Guest]

I could not agree more with you. I've always said climbing is inherently selfish. I don't think that that means its sidecar impacts aren't positive for people. Absolutely. And so there's.

[Corey Richards]

But they're not the intention.

[Unnamed Guest]

They're not the intention. Nobody's.

[Corey Richards]

It's not a service oriented.

[Unnamed Guest]

Not at all. You're not in service. And it's so funny. It always bugged me that sort of the Everest expeditions that would go and be like, I'm climbing Everest to raise money for cancer. I think that's great. But that's not why you're climbing Everest. You want to climb Everest. And it's a way, in some ways to make yourself feel better about the selfishness that, you know is.

[Corey Richards]

Or if I'm going to do this, might as well raise some money. For sure, for sure.

[Unnamed Guest]

Again, either one works. It's a yes and yes. And it's always a yes. And so again, I think there's this really beautiful component that it does have this extended impact. And at the same time, I'll just speak for myself. It was never. And even my career with National Geographic, it was never about policy change. It was never about necessarily telling other people's stories. And it's kind of embarrassing to say that it was always about me because I felt like, look, look at what I can do and validate me. I'm very proud of the policy change that came out of some of those stories. I'm very proud of the conservation that came out of some of those stor. But that's not what it was. And so I, I a hundred percent agree with you. And later in this sort of trajectory of life, I had the same realization that you did. I often say that my rock bottom was the summit of Everest because I realized there's literally no place else I can go.

[Corey Richards]

There's nowhere higher.

[Unnamed Guest]

There's nowhere higher. There's nowhere else I can go to get away from myself.

[Corey Richards]

Did you climb with it without oxygen the first time?

[Unnamed Guest]

Without second time? I put it on right below the summit.

[Corey Richards]

Why would you go to. What is it, 27,000ft?

[Unnamed Guest]

29, 39, 35.

[Corey Richards]

I mean, that's like a. That's a cruising altitude for an aircraft.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

Why the hell would you do like I don't want them to turn off the oxygen in flight.

[Unnamed Guest]

No.

[Corey Richards]

Why, why? What motivates you to.

[Unnamed Guest]

There's all the poetic reasons, which are, you know, seeing how far you can go.

[Corey Richards]

Man versus self.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, man versus self. Climb the Mountain without. To climb the mountain within. You know, there's all of that, which, by the way, doesn't work. Then there's the reality that, like, you know, that in doing it that way, there's way more cred. There's way more visibility.

[Corey Richards]

I climbed Everest. Amazing. I climbed it without oxygen.

[Unnamed Guest]

Wow. Right. Like. And I think it is a triumph of human physiology, for sure.

[Corey Richards]

Not a doubt.

[Unnamed Guest]

And on the other side of that, there's. There's the reality that you're just doing it to see how hard you can go again. Nothing wrong with that. But just call it what it is.

[Corey Richards]

So let's now be less cynical.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right. Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah. So did it help you?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yes. And Right.

[Corey Richards]

Because struggling with things.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

And then you did something that is objectively very difficult. That objectively, I mean, there's dead bodies.

[Unnamed Guest]

Still on the novel all over.

[Corey Richards]

All over the place, and they can't go get them.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

What does that do for you? Do you come down saying, I'm a better person, I'm a stronger person. I think I have the skills. I'll give a silly analogy. Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

So a friend of mine was a runner. I wasn't a runner, but I started running because it was fun to run with my friend.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

Start running longer and longer distances and eventually I ran my first marathon. I would not have been able to write a book if I hadn't run a marathon.

[Unnamed Guest]

Interesting.

[Corey Richards]

Because I am one of those people who likes to be an instant expert. And you can't just run a marathon tomorrow. You have no choice. You have to train. And that experience gave me the mental foundation to write a book because I couldn't just sit down and write a book. It would take months. And you work your way up to it like a marathon. And I'm grateful to the marathon for giving me the strength to write a book. And I'm curious of climbing Everest without oxygen the first time gave you the strength to dot dot dot.

[Unnamed Guest]

It'S such a good question because I never thought of it in those terms. Right. Like, that would. For me to go back and paint it that way would be sort of a revisionist history. It doesn't mean it's not true.

[Corey Richards]

You do know I was only aware of that after I wrote in the writing of the book.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right, right.

[Corey Richards]

So you may have only learned the lesson years later. Like, I wouldn't be doing this now.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

If I hadn't done that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. For sure. And I mean, that's how I felt.

[Corey Richards]

Even just by the way. Conquering life. You know, Boy, this Is difficult, but I did that. So this is easy.

[Unnamed Guest]

So I can do it. You know, like, life is savage, dude. Life is so metal, you know, I think, yes, there was some of that where doing these things allowed me a certain degree of endurance to withstand other things. Primarily, I would say some of the mental health challenges.

[Corey Richards]

So physical pain, your body destroying itself, eating itself. Because that's. I think people forget that, that, yes, your body can adapt to altitude, but it's still eating itself.

[Unnamed Guest]

It's dying. Yeah, it's actively dying. So you're on a. You're on the clock. You're literally racing time. Pushing through that. That level of fear or apprehension to then accomplish that goal, of course, gives you some. Some new level of what you're capable of. And it expands your degree of tolerance for discomfort in a way at least physical. Physical discomfort, which can be transmuted into emotional, mental, whatever.

[Corey Richards]

For better and for worse.

[Unnamed Guest]

For better and for worse, you can.

[Corey Richards]

Stay in a bad relationship for too long because you can. Because you have the skills. Or you can muscle through difficult situations to find resolution in a relationship because you have the skills of not abandoning.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. Self abandonment. Right. Like, wow, let's get into that. But I think also it was such an expression of trying to outrun myself at the same time. Because, look, I'm utilizing all the skill sets that I learned in my. In my childhood development, which is hypervigilance, managing chaos. It's a healthy expression of that. And at the same time, it is a complete avoidance of what's driving it.

[Corey Richards]

It's such an interesting paradox. Right. Which is the thing that is a healthy expression of whatever pain, trauma is.

[Unnamed Guest]

Also the thing that can kill you.

[Corey Richards]

Is also amplifying the pain and trauma.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

I find that beautiful and horrible at the same time, which makes perfect sense. The thing you're trying to get away from is the very thing that's allowing you to do the thing that's also giving you the sense of, I want to keep doing this, I want to keep living. Even at its most basic form. Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

Our wounds become our weapons in both positive and negative ways. You see that all the time in relationships. The way somebody is wounded is generally how they end up showing up for their partner. So if there's an extreme sense of abandonment in somebody's life and that's their primary trauma, it's not uncommon for that person to abandon the other person or choke it out by sort of anxious attachment.

[Corey Richards]

So I'm going to ask this question multiple times, please. Are you a better version of yourself? Because of climbing Mount Everest for the first time without oxygen?

[Unnamed Guest]

No, I'm a more knowledgeable person. Doesn't make me better.

[Corey Richards]

Tell me the difference.

[Unnamed Guest]

I think that a better person would be somebody who is capable of embodying and assimilating to the lessons that they learned on that journey. Right. A more knowledgeable person takes the lessons, contextualizes them, lives upstairs in their head, and just keeps doing the same. So ultimately, yes. Right, because now I can reflect on it. But. But at the time. No, not at all.

[Corey Richards]

But I'll go with yes.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah, Because.

[Corey Richards]

Yeah, because of now.

[Unnamed Guest]

Because of now. Fair enough. All right. You got me. You got me back. I have to acknowledge myself. I don't like that. It's uncomfortable. I need to leave. Do you have more whiskey? No. I mean, it's. It's interesting though, like when you. I guess I could ask the same question, two questions. Did you write the book for other people or did you start writing it for yourself just because it had to come out?

[Corey Richards]

The answer is yes. I had this idea. I was sharing it with friends, friends asked me to share it with their friends. People would then invite me to share it with audiences. And somebody said, you really need to write this down. And so I realized that because I had something that was so powerful for me and had a positive and powerful impact in my life and was having a positive and powerful impact in my friends lives, it was having a positive and powerful impact on other people's lives. It became a responsibility. So whether I wanted to write the book or not, I learned this lesson more powerfully with the second book, believe it or not, because that one, I quit in the middle. I couldn't do it. Why so. So leaders eat last was the most difficult thing I've ever done in my life. It took years of my life and cost me two relationships. I was not fun. I wasn't happy. It was stressful. I was like A Beautiful mind. I would write with dry erase in my bathroom on all the tiles. So if I had an idea in the shower, I'd quickly jump out and write it on the tile where I was brushing my teeth. And I'd stand there and read all. And literally you'd walk into my bathroom and the tiles were filled with these crazy ideas. I couldn't understand why all the social scientists. Because all I did was take the biology of the chemicals, dopamine, endorphins, serotonin, oxytocin, cortisol, and overlay them on corporate culture and said, let's see what happens. And I was calling scientists to understand oxytocin dopamine, like asking them. And I couldn't understand why none of them had not written this book. It seemed so obvious. They're the experts. Because it was organizationally a nightmare. Because every chapter could have been a book. And start with why was about, I don't know, something like 68,000 words. And when I was writing Leaders Eat Last, I was just getting started and I wrote 150,000, 50,000 words. It just kept going and going and it was organizationally a nightmare. And I was sitting at my desk, it was probably at least a year, maybe over a year in. Probably lost at least one relationship by now. And I couldn't do it. I gave up. And so I got up from my desk, it was about 8:00 at night, and I went for a walk. It was in New York City and just went for a walk. And I went to plan my quitting. I literally would go through the checklist of quitting and I would have to tell my publisher, I'm unable to do this. I'll have to give them back the advance because technically I'm in breach of contract, right? So I'm going through that checklist. I'm like, okay, I'm going to lose money, right? I'm going to be humiliated because I already had some notoriety from the first book and everybody was looking forward to the second book. And I have to go publicly announce after telling everybody I'm writing another book that I'm not going to write. So I'm going to be publicly humiliated. I have to tell my friend. Just going through the checklist and preparing myself for the burden of quitting. And for whatever reason, I picked up the phone and called a friend of mine who happened to be in the Air Force Special Forces at the time. Call sign Johnny Quest.

[Unnamed Guest]

Johnny Quest.

[Corey Richards]

Johnny Quest, dude, yeah, he's a good guy. He looks like Johnny Quest. He's a pilot for United Now. And I don't even think I said hello. So he picked up the phone and I said, what do you do when you can't complete the mission?

[Unnamed Guest]

I just asked him.

[Corey Richards]

And as is his nature, he started telling me a story. And he told me a story of how he was in Afghanistan. He was a helicopter pilot at the time. And they had a mission that all the intelligence said it was a suicide mission. The ground to air defenses were so extreme. And it wasn't like a kill Hitler mission. You're going to kill Hitler. We're all going to die, but you're going to kill Hitler. It's not one of those. It's like, you're all going to die and we won't accomplish the mission. It was just a pointless suicide mission. And it was obvious to everybody who was a part of it, but they were ordered to go do this mission. And they were prepping their helicopter, and his wingman says to him, what do we do? We've got wives, we've got kids. Do we refuse to go? What do we do? And my friend turned to him and said, this is what we signed up for. We go, clearly, the mission was scrubbed.

[Unnamed Guest]

At the last minute.

[Corey Richards]

And so he said to me. He told me this story, and then he says to me, is this book more or less powerful than Start with why? I said, the lessons that I'm learning in the research are impacting me as much, if not more, than Start with why? He says, okay, I'm going to tell you a funny story. He says, before I met you, I was disillusioned with the Air Force, and I wanted to quit. I found this kooky little book called Start with why, and it reinspired me to take myself on as a leader. And I am who I am today in part because of your book. And if you're telling me that you're learning things that are more powerful. And he said, this is what you signed up for, you have no choice. Now. The underlying message was, and I will be here with you. And that's the most important part. It wasn't like, do you have to do. It wasn't like this stupid grit thing, because there's also knowing when to quit, right?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Corey Richards]

It wasn't a grit message. It was a you are not alone message. This is what we do. This is what we signed up for. He told his wingman, not what you signed up for. And this is what my friend was telling me, which is, go, and I will be with you. And I went back and finished the book.

[Unnamed Guest]

Do you think just. I've been playing with this idea recently about the difference between. Because I'm writing a children's book now, which is harder than people think, Much, much harder. What's the difference between giving up and letting go? And do you think that you actually let go, which allowed you to continue?

[Corey Richards]

So I. Because there's schools of thought that says you never quit, and there's schools of thought that says you have to know when to quit.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right, Right, Right.

[Corey Richards]

And who's right? Right. And your dichotomy of letting go versus quitting, I think, is a good one. In my Mind, it's this very simple test. Is the sacrifice worth it? And if the answer is yes, you keep going. If the answer is no, you stop. And so I've done many things that I hate that play to all of my weaknesses, that cause me stress and sleepless nights and broken relationships and things. But if I'm really honest with myself and I look at what I'm trying to accomplish and what I'm trying to do in the world, and if I ask myself, is this sacrifice worth it? And the answer is yes, you keep going. But there are also things that I've done that become excruciating. And the sacrifice no longer feels worth it. And I'm happy to walk away. And so to me, is the sacrifice worth it?

[Unnamed Guest]

That's an interesting.

[Corey Richards]

And it's a very simple test. Does it feel right?

[Unnamed Guest]

But a lot of times, and it.

[Corey Richards]

Helps you get away with. People are expecting it. And those. All of that is noise. Is this sacrifice worth what you're trying to accomplish? Whether it's selfish or selfless is up to you.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right? Right.

[Corey Richards]

I'm trying to become a millionaire. The sacrifice is worth it. Whatever your standard is, I don't care. But that to me is the reason to keep going or not keep going. Which is why I like letting go versus quitting.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, because I actually honestly think resilience is not about holding on. Resilience is about letting go.

[Corey Richards]

Say more.

[Unnamed Guest]

When we hold on, that is usually a place of survival, right?

[Corey Richards]

Oh, like gritting your teeth.

[Unnamed Guest]

Gritting your teeth. We're in survival mode. I gotta hold on. I gotta hold on. And survival is interesting because it's reaction based and reaction is not value based. Right. When people are in survival mode, values are out the window. Look what people do.

[Corey Richards]

Right?

[Unnamed Guest]

Resilience. Right? Exactly. So resilience is about letting go. In that you have to step into discomfort, you have to step into discovery through discomfort. You have to let go of your certainty because certainty kills curiosity. Right. And you have to be willing to adapt to something that is foreign. And so it's. It's all about letting go.

[Corey Richards]

Tool of resilience.

[Unnamed Guest]

It underwrites it. Right. And because resilience is response based versus reaction based, it's endurance based, it's curiosity based, it's underwritten by values. So it guides you to a net positive evolution as a response to challenging circumstances.

[Corey Richards]

That's very interesting. And it also. It also now puts a very high burden on all of us that you have to know your values.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Corey Richards]

Without values, your capacity for resilience goes.

[Unnamed Guest]

Down, it goes well. I mean, think about our culture in terms of mental health, which I really do believe is a crisis, right? Part of that is because we are living in our sympathetic nervous systems, which is fight, flight or freeze, which is survival based. So our whole culture is not acting out of a resilience mindset or response mindset or values. It's a reaction mindset. So we have no values. So we cannibalize each other in the pursuit of survival because that's our most base instinct. And in doing so, our act for survival and the lack of values drives us deeper into conflict, which keeps us further from survival.

[Simon Sinek]

Coming up on part two.

[Unnamed Guest]

Sometimes I sit in my car and I scream as loud as I fucking can and just cry because just hurts so fucking much. So I'm in the place of just profound discomfort. And every day as I start to make up new stories about my lack of value or why she left or what the other guy has or whatever it is, or, you know, what my ex is doing now, or anytime I start to come up with a story, it's like there's an elbow block of something so deep in me that says you're trying to create certainty, which is a grasp for comfort which you know is not what you need because it will erase your agency.

[Corey Richards]

If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website SimonSinek.com for classes, videos and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by Lindsey Garbinius, David Jha and Devin Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Ruderschan.