← A Bit of Optimism
A Bit of Optimism
The Man Who Proved Me Right with CEO Bob Chapman and the Barry-Wehmiller Team
01:12:07
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- [00:00]
Simon Sinek
I wish leaders took leadership as personally as you do. They see it as a rank or position. They see it as power and authority, but they don't take it as seriously as raising a child. And you take taking care of your people as seriously as taking care of your children. You deeply mean it. You deeply feel it. I know people who turn it on and turn it off, and you can't turn it off. It's core to who you are.
- [00:26]
Bob Chapman
I always say, Simon, you can retire from a job, but you cannot retire from a calling. And when I look today, as we talk the issues we face in the world, I see business as a source of destruction, creating economic value, but not human value. And I feel a profound sense of responsibility. Change the way the world sees its responsibility to people they have the privilege of leading.
- [00:49]
Narrator
I imagine a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every. Every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. When most people hear me say this, they think it's just the ramblings of a crazy idealist. And I would actually agree with them. Until I met Bob Chapman. When I met Bob, he claimed that he'd actually built a company that embodied what I imagined. And to be honest, I didn't believe him. Again, I'm a crazy idealist. And what I imagine isn't supposed to exist in reality. It's supposed to be a striving. Which is why I wanted to go see for myself. Bob has spent 50 years leading a company called Barry Wehmiller. And what started as a humble Midwestern manufacturing company is now a $3.6 billion global powerhouse with nearly 12,000 team members. And what he's built is more than a successful company. It's a model of what any company could and should look like. His approach is called truly human leadership. And it's a simple idea. Prioritize empathy, trust, and relationships to drive performance. These lessons work in any workplace and any industry. And it proves that how we treat people at work, how we care for people at work, can transform our families, our communities, and indeed the world around us. I encouraged Bob to write it all down, and he did. In his book Everybody Matters, which I am also proudly the publisher. And with a new edition recently released, Bob and I decided to take a trip back to the factory where he first showed me what he built. And we did something a little different in this episode. Yes, I sit down with my dear friend. And yes, there are tears of inspiration. And this time you will also hear from some of the People whose lives have been touched by Bob's leadership style. They are proof that I can no longer be called a crazy idealist. If what I imagine exists in reality, this is a bit of optimism. This episode is brought to you by Porsche and their new Macan. And when they reached out to us and asked if I would be comfortable to talk about the new Porsche Macan, well, let's just say I already owned one. That's actually my car. So the simple answer was yes. I am someone who has lived my entire life around big cities. So visiting Philips, Wisconsin feels like I'm stepping into some alternative universe, into a place where life feels simpler, where spending time outdoors is better than any video game and spending time with family and friends is the most valuable commodity there is. And work, at least for those who work at BW Paper Systems, is now one of the essential parts of the good life. I remembered the first time I entered the plant. I was struck by the sheer size of the place, the high ceilings. It was like a huge indoor concrete football field lined with dozens of surprisingly clean machines, their movements and their hums giving the place life. This was now my fifth time visiting. And every single time I've come back here, I'm struck by how clean and organized and magical it all feels. There's no chaos. Everything is in its place. Everyone knows their role. It's a sight to behold. And like an orchestra, there's a symphony being played by this group of people with a common cause. But that doesn't mean that there's a lack of fun.
- [04:46]
Amber Mayer
I'm a mover and a groover. Like, I don't have it blaring right now, but when none of you are here, my radio is blaring.
- [04:54]
Narrator
That's Amber Mayer. She's responsible for the small parts getting to where they need to be all over the factory.
- [05:02]
Amber Mayer
Sometimes there's parts all over this place and I have to play like you can't find them. Well, guess what? Here I am, Inspector Gadget. Like running around. So I do put a lot of steps in a day.
- [05:16]
Interviewer
I like to see your counter.
- [05:17]
Simon Sinek
How many? How many have you done?
- [05:18]
Interviewer
How long? What time did you get?
- [05:20]
Amber Mayer
Six o'.
- [05:20]
Bob Chapman
Clock.
- [05:20]
Amber Mayer
So I'm at 9300.
- [05:22]
Interviewer
You gave me 9,000 steps in three hours.
- [05:26]
Narrator
Amber got a job here three years ago.
- [05:29]
Simon Sinek
Her husband decided to join her six months later.
- [05:32]
Interviewer
What did you do prior?
- [05:33]
Amber Mayer
I bartended slash waitressed almost 20 years at club and eatery right across the street here. So I actually dealt with a lot of these employees and stuff over There. So a lot of people knew me already before I even came here. So when it came to me applying here, they're like, we want her. We know what kind of worker she is.
- [05:52]
Simon Sinek
And what did you know about them?
- [05:53]
Interviewer
Just seeing them come through the bar, in the restaurant.
- [05:56]
Jared Nelson
How did they talk about work?
- [05:57]
Interviewer
Because, you know, usually people come to.
- [05:59]
Amber Mayer
A bar, it's a great place to work.
- [06:01]
Interviewer
It's not like they order a double and they whine and complain about their bosses.
- [06:05]
Amber Mayer
They very rarely had to order because I already knew what they wanted and they sat down like a lot of these people. Like I said, I waited on them a lot. But they said that working for this place was unlike any other factory or facility that you'd ever worked for before. Mind you, back in the day, I did work for another factory. And this place is so much more laid back and easygoing than any place is like that. Like, they're more focused on the people and, like, try to help us and take care of us and make sure that we are all happy here.
- [06:38]
Simon Sinek
How do you feel when you come.
- [06:39]
Interviewer
To work compared to the way you would feel in other jobs when you would go to work?
- [06:43]
Amber Mayer
Well, I don't even use an alarm, to be honest with you. I just wake up and get going before I needed an alarm to wake up. So. And I do not mind, you know, if my leader were to ask me, can you stay? Or even this last weekend, I ended up getting messages and phone calls from the weekend shift, and I'm like, do you guys need me to come in? I'll come in. I'll help you out.
- [07:06]
Interviewer
Like, but weren't you always like that? Weren't you like that in other jobs? Isn't that your personality?
- [07:11]
Amber Mayer
No.
- [07:12]
Interviewer
Say more.
- [07:13]
Jared Nelson
It.
- [07:13]
Amber Mayer
It gets to a point, you know, where people take advantage of you if you do too much. It's like they know, and they know they can push you and push you and push you and take more, and they don't respect you anymore. It's like, well, she did it this one time, so she's gonna continue to do it, and we're gonna put more on our plate just because we know she can handle it. No, no, no, no. That's not how it works. Like, make me happy. Like, I'm helping you. What can you do to help me? You know, Is my mentality like.
- [07:44]
Interviewer
But they do ask you to sometimes come in on the weekend or go stay longer on your shift and yet. But how's that different?
- [07:51]
Amber Mayer
For some reason, I feel like it's my family. It's my team and I'm helping them out because I know that if I ask for something, they're going to return the favor. You know, I mean, you can't get that everywhere.
- [08:07]
Narrator
Bob Chapman was not always such a people centric leader. Trained as an accountant, he used to run his business. Well, like an accountant, people were line items. They were an expense to be managed. But something happened, something Bob did not expect. Many years ago, Bob and his wife were attending a wedding. They sat in the pews and watched the ceremony play out in front of them. The father of the bride walks his daughter down the aisle and ceremonially gives her away. Then he turns and sits down in his seat. Bob couldn't get this image out of his head. A father who would give his life for his precious child was giving her away to another man with the hope that he will take care of her with the same love that he did for so many years. That's when the epiphany struck. Every single person who works in Bob's company is someone's son or someone's daughter. That every single employee is someone's precious child who's now in Bob's care. It was this realization that set Bob on a journey that he did not expect to be on, one that would completely change the way he thinks about leadership.
- [09:29]
Simon Sinek
I'm so curious, like when you meet people and they say to you sort of, bob, what have you built? What's your business? How do you talk about this?
- [09:37]
Bob Chapman
Well, as you know, my first half of my career was very traditional about management, financial results and growth. And through the series of revelations I went through where the lens through which I saw people, because I saw them as machinists, labor union members, office people, people working on the floor, all the traditional ways we talk about it. And the lens was reversed. And I saw them as somebody's precious child that's been placed in my care. Everything changed for me. So the lens through which you see people affects the way you treat people. If you, because I was raised that you need people to achieve results and when you don't need them anymore, you let them go. So the lens was clearly seen. If you see people as somebody's precious child, it profoundly affects your leadership style. My major responsibility to people in our company is to give them a grounded sense of hope for the future. They can trust in my care. I take that incredibly profoundly seriously.
- [10:33]
Simon Sinek
I know you and I have talked about this, about sort of how being a parent and being a leader are very similar. You talk about how being a parent this child is brought into your life, and you're responsible for its growth and its upbringing. And in business, a person is brought into your office and you're responsible for their growth and their upbringing. I appreciate that the lens for you changed where you stop seeing people as line items and, you know, mechanisms for your success, but rather that you are now responsible for their growth, their success, their happiness, their wellbeing. How did you make the conversion to be this heartfelt leader rather than just all head and all numbers?
- [11:08]
Bob Chapman
It was a journey. When I realized that day at the wedding that all 12,000 of our team members around the world are not functions for my success. They're somebody's precious child who I have in my care for 40 hours a week, it changed everything. And a young man asked me about that time, what is your greatest fear, Bob? Now, you know me, I'm an eternal optimist. And I had to stop and think. And I said, my greatest fear is that we were blessed with the message of the way the world was intended to be, where people would genuinely care for each other and would be dependent upon me. And I would leave this company, this earth, and what I had built would fall apart. Because I've seen that happen in churches and companies all over the world. So my greatest fear is that this blessing we've been given would not live beyond my time. So we began. I got. Had an incredible team around me called the Empowerment Team, you know, some of those members. And I said, how do great religions survive all the time? You know, this is how it evolved from greater religions. And we said, they articulate their beliefs, which we have in the guiding principle of leadership. And then they have disciples who carry this message forward beyond the founder. Because it's not. Bob. We all believe this is the way we should treat each other. So we said, how are we going to do that? We can't send people back to universities to learn to be truly human leaders. So this eclectic team for the whiteboard said, well, we're going to create our own university. And they came up with three powerful classes. Empathetic listening, which is the most powerful of all human skills, recognition and celebration. How do you let people know they matter in thoughtful, appropriate ways? And then culture of service, serving from. It's all about me to actually care about you.
- [12:51]
Simon Sinek
And I know all of the classes that you teach are voluntary. Nobody's forced to go through any of this. People choose to go through it. And if they don't want to go through it, then that's fine. But people can see the impact that it has on their co workers, their colleagues and friends when they do go through these classes, which is why I know that there's a good long waiting list for people to get into your classes. What are the core ideas that you teach in the empathetic listening class, for example?
- [13:16]
Bob Chapman
Well, first of all, one of the things I've learned in teaching this is our team member, David Vonnemullen came up with the idea because when. When somebody said, if we're going to start a university, we need to teach people listen, I thought, why would we need to teach adults to listen? We all know how to listen, okay? That is the biggest revolution. We realized that we don't know how to listen, okay? We're taught to speak, and we're taught to debate. We're not taught to listen, okay? The issues we. The divide we have in this country and the world is because we have a lot of people. I'm right and you're wrong, okay? That's the world we see it in. Politics between our countries. And so this team came up with this idea that we would teach empathetic listening, okay? Which is the most foundational human skill that you can possibly have because you validate the worth of others when you listen to them without judge. Not listening to debate, not listening to respond or judge. Simply listening to validate the other person still amazed me. Simon. We were simply trying to change managers into leaders, into disciples. People who would carry this forward well beyond my time. 95% of the feedback, 95% was how it affected their marriage and their relationship with their children. And I thought, what. Because I'm. I was never told, never taught.
- [14:33]
Simon Sinek
This class was built to help people function better at work. Right? That they would. That they would communicate better at work.
- [14:38]
Randall Fleming
Right?
- [14:39]
Simon Sinek
Right.
- [14:39]
Bob Chapman
I thought when you hire somebody, the pay and the benefits was exchanged for the present. As long as you needed them, you would pay them. But when you didn't need them, you let them go. And this changed everything. Because what we. What we realize is what people want to know is that they matter, okay? We have a very prosperous economy, but we do not have a. A healthy economy because we have depression anxiety, because people don't feel valued, they feel used. So this listening class still amazes me 20 some years later that we've taught all over the world. This is not an American issue. This is a global issue. When you teach people listen, they tell you the stories of how it improved their marriage and their relationship with the kids. So when we say, what's wrong with kids today? I said, where did they come from? It came from families where parents probably came home from a job where they don't feel valued. They don't, probably because of that stress and anxiety, whatever and concern about the future, probably don't treat their spouse as well as possible. And what do our kids see? They see the behavior of our parents who don't know how to care for each other. They may be in love, but they don't know how to listen to each other. And so it was unbelievable the feedback we got. If your listeners could have heard the thousands of people I've heard around the world who've taken this class from India to Serbia to China. It's a universal truth. The healing power of listening is profound.
- [16:06]
Narrator
Randall Fleming started on this floor 36 years ago. @ the time, a young welder who self identified as Darth Vader.
- [16:16]
Simon Sinek
Hey, Randall.
- [16:17]
Randall Fleming
Hello, Simon.
- [16:18]
Interviewer
Good to see you.
- [16:19]
Randall Fleming
Good to see you, sir.
- [16:20]
Narrator
When Barry Wehmiller acquired the company 25 years ago, Random Randall was not exactly thrilled. Just like I didn't believe Bob when I first met him. A lot of his new employees like Randall didn't believe him either.
- [16:34]
Interviewer
Barry Waymiller buys the company.
- [16:36]
Randall Fleming
Yes.
- [16:38]
Interviewer
And they make all kinds of promises and statements. And you hear, you see this Bob chap and this weird larger than life character come in. What was it that he was saying that you sort of rolled your eyes?
- [16:52]
Randall Fleming
Oh, man, just about everything.
- [16:57]
Narrator
Before the acquisition, there were no leadership classes and definitely no touchy feely culture. This was a traditional American manufacturing plant run with a command and control culture. You clocked in, did your job, kept your head down, didn't ask questions, didn't make waves, did your work, and then clocked out. That was the culture. But that all changed when Bob and.
- [17:22]
Simon Sinek
His team took over.
- [17:23]
Randall Fleming
We always had these, we called them flavor of the month. You have all of these different things that they implement and nothing ever really comes of it. You don't really see any results. But this was a whole new company coming in with all of these promises. But then there was also some major changes that were happening. I was standoffish a lot just because of some of the things that were occurring business wise, but more so, you know, this promise of a better place. It's like, I just want to do my job, you know, just don't promise me anything. Just leave me alone. I don't need a speech. I don't need a company meeting. You know, I just need to clock in, clock out, and Friday, I'll deposit my check. So it was just foreign. I didn't believe anything because we never heard anything, you know, that really ever meant anything.
- [18:12]
Interviewer
Because you'd heard promises before of this and that, and it was just talk. Maybe it was good for a week.
- [18:17]
Randall Fleming
Yeah, you do something. Okay, it's done. And then six months later, what. Whatever came of that.
- [18:23]
Simon Sinek
So you were cynical at all the.
- [18:24]
Interviewer
Promises, which is totally fair because you've.
- [18:26]
Simon Sinek
Heard it all before.
- [18:27]
Interviewer
Yes, but then what happened?
- [18:30]
Randall Fleming
Well, one individual came from Green Bay. They made him what was called the continuous improvement leader at the time. And he didn't know me, luckily. And then there was another woman that was here, and they. I used to work in the far end of the building, and they would come by and say hi to me and how's it going? And I would just ignore them because I didn't want to talk to anybody. Just leave me alone. I don't like you. Get out of here. But they were so persistent. I mean, day after day, like, they.
- [19:07]
Interviewer
Would say, good morning regardless.
- [19:08]
Randall Fleming
Irregardless.
- [19:09]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [19:09]
Randall Fleming
And I was lucky enough that I had. I was able to surround my work area with enough work that you literally had to crawl over it to get in by me. Well, one day, the Maureen was her name, crawled over all the steel and walked right up to me and, hi, Randall. How are you doing today? And I was kind of stunned, but it was a woman, so I was nice. I tried to be nice, but that was kind of the start of, you know, I started to hear things that, okay, maybe this isn't just the flavor of the month. Maybe this is real. There was a course that they advertised. It was called communication skills. And 2003, I signed up for the.
- [19:52]
Interviewer
Course, and that was voluntary. Nobody was made to take. So what was the reason you decided to take the course?
- [19:59]
Randall Fleming
What I was thinking in my mind is, you're either going to prove me right or wrong.
- [20:03]
Interviewer
What were you hoping to get out of the course?
- [20:05]
Randall Fleming
An answer. Because at that time, I was going through a personal change as well. But I wanted an answer. Am I going to stay here or not? In my mind, I had to answer that question because I saw it as. This is the. It's either the time for me to leave or the time for me to really get on board or embrace what's going on here. Because I was tired of. I don't want to say not knowing, but I was just tired of thinking about it. So just prove me right or wrong so I can make a decision and either move on or I'm gonna. I'm gonna try this.
- [20:45]
Simon Sinek
When you say Move on because you're.
- [20:46]
Interviewer
Like, I can't take all this hokey stuff. Like, it's not for me.
- [20:50]
Simon Sinek
I just want to go to a.
- [20:51]
Interviewer
Place that leaves me and lets me do my work. Stop saying hi to me every morning. So that was the thing.
- [20:55]
Randall Fleming
The first day in the class, I was listening to what they were talking about and I was asking a lot of questions and not getting any answers. And one of the individuals that was there, he was actually the guy that trained the professors at the time. He kind of pulled me aside and had a conversation with me that he literally said two words through the whole conversation. So after I talked with him for a little while, I was like, okay, I think I'm learning something here. This isn't communication skills. This is self reflection. Randall Time is really what that course was about. I came out of the course with a whole different. Not just view of Barry Wehmiller, but a view of how. How I was doing things, how I thought, how I reacted. So if I hadn't done that, I don't know how it would have all.
- [21:54]
Interviewer
What were you like before? Now that you have had clarity, looking back, how would you have described yourself? You know that looking at yourself from the outside in prior. Yeah. Look now. Now that you have the clarity.
- [22:08]
Randall Fleming
Oh yeah.
- [22:09]
Interviewer
How would you describe ride?
- [22:10]
Randall Fleming
Well, to those trust that I was probably an okay guy. But for those that I didn't, which was 90% of the rest, probably wasn't a very good guy. You know, I didn't like anybody. I. I would. I was told by an engineer one time that I turned him around at 50ft just by looking at him when he was coming to talk to me. But for those that I actually trusted and there was a handful in the building, sure, I probably didn't come off that way, but I was. I liked coming off that way to the rest of the world. Just leave me alone does it kept people away. Kept people away. I want to talk to you. Nothing you can say I have interest.
- [22:51]
Interviewer
As a result of that and the continue and being open to what all the other stuff that Barry Windmiller the way it treats people, the way it leads the culture. Who are you now?
- [23:03]
Randall Fleming
180 degrees from that other guy is the best I can put it. Because I really enjoy meeting people now. I travel a lot, so when I meet people I usually get into a conversation about something. Yeah. Just a completely different person. And I look back on it and I think about how I used to react to things and think and it's like. It's hard for me to imagine that now, you know, why was I like that? But that was just my whole life experience, you know, made me that guy.
- [23:38]
Interviewer
Looking back now, when you were in the traditional factory setting, you were probably completely unable to recognize the stress you were under. Can you look back now and say, my life was like. I felt stress compared to now is.
- [23:53]
Randall Fleming
I can answer that. Even better was anger. I never had stress, okay? No one could give me stress. I was just mad at everything.
- [24:02]
Interviewer
I mean, that affects your home life.
- [24:05]
Randall Fleming
Oh, yeah. I got divorced because of it. I mean, I didn't. I wasn't a bad husband, but I wasn't a supportive, emotionally available guy either. And I look back on that. But, you know, it was at that time in my life, you know, everything that had led up to that. Like I say, I wasn't. I didn't have stress. I actually had a guy, a physician one time look at me and go, you're either mad or angry. You don't have anything else. And I did. Later on, after I figured this out and was able to change, I realized that, yeah, that I only had one thing. Yeah, I was never happy about anything. I didn't love anything. I just was mad all the time.
- [24:47]
Interviewer
I don't think people appreciate just how poignant this is. You know, I think a lot of leaders, a lot of companies will label somebody as a mad person. That's their personality. And I don't think it ever occurs to anybody that it is work. It is the work environment that somebody was raised in that made them angry that makes somebody like that. That my job makes me into the kind of person that would lead to a divorce. And simply by changing the work environment, the person changes. The person changes that. I think everybody thinks it's the personality. They come to work and not that the work makes the personality.
- [25:29]
Randall Fleming
Yeah, a lot of it is. I mean, but it also feeds it.
- [25:33]
Interviewer
So if you have a kernel of it, it'll exaggerate it.
- [25:37]
Randall Fleming
Yeah, to me, it's really. It spills way over into my personal life. My kids and I are best friends, and it wasn't like that. I was dad. They were kids even when they were grown. But that's what I always call the big win. Are you the same at work as you are at home? That was always a question I used to hear say, well, yeah, I'm the same here as I am at home. Well, luckily, I was able to turn in a different way.
- [26:08]
Narrator
Usually when a company wants to change its culture, it hires some change management consultant. There's lots of PowerPoints given. And there's an expectation that everyone changes.
- [26:19]
Simon Sinek
On the assigned day.
- [26:21]
Narrator
That's not what Bob did. He came in, he shared his philosophy of leadership, and he simply invited people to join whenever they wanted on their own time frame.
- [26:33]
Simon Sinek
We've bifurcated the world, right? It's like you have your home life and you have your work life and we forget that it's not two different worlds, it's one very integrated world because the people who are going to work go back home and vice versa. And so if they go to a place of work where they don't feel like their work matters or they don't feel like they matter, they don't feel like their leaders care about them as human beings. They only see them as means of production. That stress that they carry, of course has to go somewhere. And it comes in the form of lack of sleep, high blood pressure. It comes in the, you're grumpy, you're short tempered. And that affects one's own health, but it also affects the health of the family unit. As you said, you know, you come home stressed from work just because you have a shitty boss, you know, not a toxic person, not somebody who's like screaming and yelling just doesn't make you feel like you're mad or they just care about your productivity. That stress comes out at home and that affects kids grades, kids self confidence. And it's an amazing concept. And the logic is so simple. And the logic is there, which is.
- [27:35]
Bob Chapman
It has to be simple. Because it occurred to me, it has to be simple, which is if you're.
- [27:40]
Simon Sinek
Teaching these people how to listen, empathetic listening, so that they can better communicate at work, those skills are the skills. They're going home. Not only do they feel better at work, they're taking those skills and they're raising their kids better. It's having a, I mean that a good job and a good place to work is good for my family occurs to nobody, right? And that a company would say, come work for us, it's good for your family. Other than just the money we're going to pay you, because that's usually how we measure if it's good for your family. How much can I provide in my education?
- [28:09]
Bob Chapman
Undergraduate accounting, mba, Pricewaterhouse, then running a family business. I was never taught, never told, never made aware that the way I would run this company would affect people's personal lives. Other than the compensation and the benefits, we think that is the exchange. You give me your gifts, I'll pay you fairly. But the most Powerful thing we do to people is validate their worth. And the greatest source of happiness is a good job doing meaningful work for the people they enjoy. I get in front of CEOs all over the world and I say, you're all worried about the cost of health care. You are the problem. 74% of all illnesses are chronic. The biggest cause of chronic illness is stress. And the biggest cause of stress is work. Jeffrey Pfeiffer at Stanford wrote a book, Dying for a Paycheck, and he doesn't mean anxious to get it. He estimates we're killing 120,000 people a year die of work related stress.
- [28:57]
Simon Sinek
Can you imagine if we taught in our MBAs, in our MBA classes that how you lead will directly affect someone's health? And that if you're a bad leader, there's a very short chain of logic that you're actually killing somebody. Increase in cortisol hurts the immune system. This slow, steady drip of cortisol because of the stress at work. I mean, to your point, which is people don't feel responsible for the lives of the people in their span of care because nobody's connected the dots for them.
- [29:27]
Bob Chapman
Yeah. I mean, seriously, Simon, you can't ask people to care. You have to teach them how to care. You can't ask people to speak Chinese. You have to teach them how to speak. We found that caring is a teachable skill. And the good news is that with your encouragement and support and the evolution of this, that we are working with a number of major universities now to transform business education to create tomorrow's leaders who have the skills and courage to care, to bring these human skills in with academic skills. So when they leave our education system, they're ready to live in the beauty of diversity, not the conflict of the Percy. They're ready to be good stewards of the lives at home, in their community, at work. But it's a teachable skill. But we have always felt academic skills are the key to success and. And we forgot the human skills.
- [30:24]
Narrator
We interrupt this podcast with an ad with authenticity. This episode is sponsored by Porsche and their new macan, which is actually my car. I had it before they called. It's actually my car and I love it.
- [30:39]
Porsche Representative
There is an entire team in Germany that just focuses on how material feels or what, what the cadence of the buttons are or how they feel when you release them or what sound they make. And I think that's one thing that really speaks to me with the brand is that it comes all the way back to its roots of engineers. And designers within the Porsche family. And when you have those two, it really comes back to the senses.
- [31:01]
Simon Sinek
My God, it works perfectly.
- [31:03]
Porsche Representative
Yes.
- [31:03]
Simon Sinek
It's the other reason why I have to say I love having a German car, which is everything works always exactly.
- [31:11]
Interviewer
As it was designed.
- [31:12]
Porsche Representative
Yeah, well said, well said. And I will tell you that although the stereotype is, well, it's just about efficiency, it's just about perfection, it's just about mechanical ability. The people behind these product developments, they are lifelong Porsche owners, lifelong Porsche fans, racing fans. And they dedicate years to the small this decisions and how this whole car comes together. And that part is so fun for me on the inside.
- [31:39]
Interviewer
It says a lot when the people.
- [31:41]
Simon Sinek
Who are making the car that you.
- [31:43]
Interviewer
Drive are fans of the car you drive.
- [31:45]
Narrator
There's passion and love and you feel it.
- [31:48]
Porsche Representative
I totally agree.
- [31:49]
Interviewer
Feel it.
- [31:49]
Porsche Representative
Totally agree.
- [31:57]
Simon Sinek
There are some people who are cynical that this is all fine and good and hippy dippy when the economy's great, but when the economy dips, you got to tighten the belt and focus on the numbers. And we see it all the time, even well intentioned companies, as soon as something dips the numbers, the first thing to suffer is the people. They cut the recognition programs, they cut the spending on the leadership programs, they lay people off. It's the first thing we do. So it sounds like these things are all nice to haves. If, if you're thriving, what do you have to say to those companies that that's the first thing. They cut people and programs. When struggle happens, I mean, what does Barry Wehmiller do?
- [32:39]
Bob Chapman
Well, it starts with, we have a constitution of our culture. The guiding principle of leadership and overwhelming the vision is we measure success by the way we touch the lives of people. So we kind of have a constitution that guides us like our country does in terms of the responsibility of leadership. So if you embrace that and you end up with an economic situation, what do we do?
- [33:04]
Narrator
In 2008, when the housing market collapsed, it sent the economy into a financial crisis. Savings were wiped out, companies collapsed and lives were shattered. As the economy went into full recession, most companies thought that they had no other option but to to lay people off in order to survive. BW was also hit hard by the recession, but Bob refused to let anyone go.
- [33:34]
Bob Chapman
Our orders dropped by 30%. And I was taught, well, you know, what you gotta do is you gotta let people go. Because you know, that's what just what you know, it's not personal, it's just what we do. We I once, as you know, in The Air Force asked some of the generals, how do you teach these young men and women to kill? And they said, we don't. We teach them to take out targets that made bad decisions. They try to dehumanize the hurt they're going to inflict and dropping bombs. We do that in business. We say, well, we right size the company, we organize the company, we gave the shareholders what they want, we dehumanize it.
- [34:06]
Simon Sinek
Reduce headcount.
- [34:07]
Bob Chapman
Yeah, we dehumanize the impact. Psychological studies show that when people are let go, I walk up to you and say, sorry, I know you just bought a house. I know we just. But I'm going to have to let you go because we got to make the numbers work. It is a major failure of stewardship because I tell our people around the world, my primary responsibility as the leader of this company is to have a business model that you feel safe, okay, that you can raise a family, you can have a home. Layoffs are a broken part of our society. It means your business model failed. You let people down.
- [34:42]
Simon Sinek
Okay, Okay, I gotta go deeper in that. You see, if you embrace layoffs, it means your business model failed. Most major public companies, and unfortunately a lot of private companies, but most major public companies have fully embraced layoffs as a regular mechanism to balance the books. Have their business models failed?
- [35:05]
Bob Chapman
Yes, well, their leadership failed. Remember, very profitable companies, Jack Welch taught us years ago, you can always probably let 5% of your people go and you'll actually do better. Not just to reduce costs, but, you know, it's good to kind of take the low performers out. So I was taught from very early, layoffs are a positive thing you do for a company because you improve profitability. And investment advisors will come to your company and say, you want to improve your, your image in the market. Lay off some people and, and say, we're gonna, we're gonna make more money in the. So part of it is the investing public rewards companies that do this, their share price goes up when they lay off people. To me, it should go down because they, I mean, I guarantee you when a board considers a public company or private company considers a layoff where you're going to hurt people, okay? You're going to hurt people. They don't talk about the consequences of those people. It's just, it's just business. So they'll find another job. How many weeks should we pay them for? I've never heard ever in my 50 year career ever heard a human way of talking about layoffs, downsides and rises. But we're taught just one of the things you do. It's not fun, it's not pleasant. So my responsibility to our people is to say, my main responsibility is to make sure you're safe in my care, where we can create economic and human value in harmony. And when people feel safe, they will share greater gifts with you. You will attract greater talent. There's no downside. Again, some people think it's just about being nice. Okay, it's much more profound. Like parenting is being nice. Parenting is not being nice and being a good steward of this child in your care. Leadership is identical. And part of it is having a safe business model where they can raise a family, they can count on you and put their trust in you and have a career with you. That is a foundational responsibility. And I've never heard that said before.
- [36:52]
Narrator
I think a lot of leaders forget.
- [36:53]
Simon Sinek
About the ripples, right? Which is they understand that, you know, even though they don't talk about it or think about it, the impact it has on people's lives when they get laid off. They also forget about the people who didn't lose their jobs, but they watch their friends get laid off. You know, now, you know, now fear is injected into the system. Am I next? You know, and one of the craziest things I've seen is companies announce, we're going to lay off 20,000 people, we're going to do 1,000 a week.
- [37:19]
Narrator
And you're just like, how on earth.
- [37:21]
Simon Sinek
Do you think that risk taking and entrepreneurship and sticking your neck out for the greater good is going to happen? People are going to retreat. They're going to keep their heads down because the unbelievable fear that I'm next, not to mention the fact that it sucks to see your friends get laid off, you know, for no fault of their own. It wasn't a meritocracy. And you said, boards aren't talking about the impact on the lives of the people they lay off. And they're also not talking about how it'll affect the culture for many, many months beyond, if not years.
- [37:52]
Bob Chapman
You know, Simon, some people say to me, how do you justify this investment, this cost of caring for your people, your university, your classes? And I said, I look at them, I say, I don't need to justify caring. How do you justify not caring? Okay, because people really struggle going from using people to care about people. Because, you know, it's, it's really, it's a major bridge to cross for most people. But I say, I, you know, nobody has to justify safety. In other words, safety Glasses, hard toe, shoes, safety, no company. Why? Because we have workman's compensation insurance and we want to manage the cost of it. So it's a cost, okay? So I would say to you, we don't have to justify safety. Why do we have to justify caring? Because this caring is the safety of your soul. I don't need to justify this because you know, our company, we've had a 25 year old growth in our share price like 12% compounded for 25 years. So we are trying to prove 12%.
- [38:52]
Simon Sinek
Compounded growth for 25 years in our share price. Okay, in your share price.
- [38:56]
Bob Chapman
We have a very technical way of creating share price that emulates the market. And so I'd say to you, we have exceeded almost everybody, you know, for a long period of time. We take a long term view, but we.
- [39:07]
Simon Sinek
Again, so anybody cynical who says no, but performance, performance, performance. Okay, fine. What you're demonstrating is that your leadership strategy outperforms the market.
- [39:19]
Bob Chapman
So if you just look at the statistics that you've heard me say that 88% of all people feel they work for an organization that doesn't care about them. And if you hear the statistics, three out of four people are disengaged in what they're doing. When you look at the 12,000, 5,200 people work for you and you know, these statistics say that they're doing what they need to do to keep their job. They're not giving you their gifts and you're sending them home damage because you were not good stewards of that life. And that's why I say business could be the most profound source of good in the world if we simply knew how to care for the people. We have a society right now based on money, power and position. Doesn't matter how you get it, as long as you get it legally. Because then you can write a check to charity and they'll have a banquet to celebrate your goodness. They won't ask you how you got your money, they'll celebrate you. And I say to CEOs around the world, the greatest act of charity is not to check shoe, right? The greatest act of charity is how you treat the people you have the privilege of leading.
- [40:20]
Simon Sinek
I have CEOs on here now and then. And honestly, in general, CEOs are the worst guests because it's hard to have candid conversations with them. They're very, very media trained. They come in with their talking points. You know, it doesn't matter what I ask, they know how to get their point across. They're going to tell me about their success, they're going to tell me about their product. They're going to tell me about the quality. I mean, I'm sitting here in one of your factories and not once have we talked about your product, what this factory makes, the quality. Not once have we talked about your product. And this is completely opposite than almost every other CEO I talked to.
- [41:04]
Bob Chapman
Well, Simon, again, it was a couple of years ago that Washington University organizational development professors interviewed me for an hour and a half, normal interview. And at the end of an hour and a half, they said, we have never talked to a CEO that never talked about your product. And I sat back and I said, we've been talking about our product for the last hour and a half. It's our people, okay? I'm not going to go to my grave proud of the machinery we built because we build great machinery. I'm going to go to my grave proud of the people that built that.
- [41:34]
Narrator
For Bob, it always comes back to the people and the trust he places in those who give him at least 40 hours a week of their lives.
- [41:43]
Simon Sinek
And there's one story I've been telling for years about two of those. Jared Nelson and Lance Johnson.
- [41:51]
Narrator
It's a story of a big company trusting someone with a high school education to spend hundreds, hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy a new machine.
- [42:01]
Interviewer
So I gotta tell you what a treat it is for me. I mean, we've met briefly, you know, but I've never actually had the chance to talk to you in depth. I heard your story and I've been telling your story from the stage for literally years. So I'm gonna tell it. Tell me if I get the facts right, okay? Cause this is how I've been telling it, which is a bunch of years ago, Barry Wehmiller, where we are. One of the machines is getting old and needs to be replaced. Traditionally, when a company needs to replace a machine, somebody in procurement puts together a budget and goes and buys a machine. In the open market. That's traditionally how it's done. Some guy in a suit goes and buys a machine. But Barry Wehmiller did it differently. They came to the two guys who work on the machine, which was YouTube, you're not accountants, you're not in procurement. You don't have any advanced degrees in how to do this stuff. You just work on the machine. And they said to you, we've got $750,000 budget, go buy a machine. And you went out into the marketplace, you looked at new machines, you looked at used Machines and where these people who sell machines are used to people standing there in a suit and clipboard talking about the machine. You guys show up and you're climbing inside the machine. You end up buying a brand new machine. You spend $500,000. The company saved $250,000 and that machine will never break because it's your machine. That's the story I've been telling.
- [43:32]
Jared Nelson
Yeah, it's really close.
- [43:36]
Randall Fleming
What did I get wrong?
- [43:38]
Jared Nelson
So Derek was an operator that we had. Jared was another operator. When I had the opportunity to, you know, given. Given to me to go purchase a machine, I knew right away that to get buy in from the operators was probably going to be the most important thing on my side as a leader in that area. So I went to Jared and Derek and I basically said, guys, this is what we got to play with as far as a cash amount. I don't know what we should get. You guys are the experts on this matter. So I, I basically used a lot of responsible freedom for these guys and I sort of went, well, we'll see how this goes. They came to work the next morning and they had advertisement flyers, email clippings, everything sent to me to review. And at that point I sort of went, you know what, maybe this won't be as hard as what it would sound. Because, you know, in my life, obviously growing up and raising a family, you can buy a car, you buy a house, capital equipment, like you said, that's really not anything that would have been in my realm of, I'm going to do this someday. So I got Jared and Derek involved and they were both great, you know, to work with on this process. These were the two that were going to make or break this product. And getting the buy in with. With them guys and knowing that they didn't want to, you know, fail, that was, that was a success. Yes.
- [44:51]
Derek
And going back, Derek and I, I worked second shift. Derek worked first shifts, you know, so we take turns. He'd go look for stuff during the day and we'd figure out what we wanted, what kind of machine we needed, you know, what we all wanted in that machine. Machine. And then we, you know, meet up at the end of the shift on first shift and we talk it over and we went from there and we did pretty good. And we had a lot of insight from guys that we worked with in the past, field technicians and stuff like that. So they kind of drove us, you know, in the right direction of what we wanted and what kind of machine we needed for capabilities and stuff.
- [45:20]
Jared Nelson
Like that.
- [45:21]
Interviewer
So this is an even better story than I've been telling because you were assigned to buy the machine.
- [45:24]
Jared Nelson
Yep.
- [45:25]
Interviewer
And you went and said, I need help. You said, you know the better than I do. And so it's, it's not just a story of giving responsibility. I get to talk to the person who said, who admits, yeah, I probably.
- [45:37]
Simon Sinek
Shouldn'T make this decision.
- [45:38]
Interviewer
Most people don't want to admit that in a corporate environment for fear that it's going to make them look bad or hurt their promotability. But you say I'm not the best qualified person to make this decision. The best qualified people to make this decision are the people who work on the machine every single day. And here you're given three quarters of a million dollars.
- [45:57]
Randall Fleming
Right.
- [45:58]
Interviewer
And I think most companies wouldn't trust, and I'll use traditional language, I know that's not how we talk here, but a couple of guys who work on a factory floor.
- [46:07]
Derek
Exactly.
- [46:07]
Interviewer
It's three quarters of a million dollars.
- [46:12]
Randall Fleming
Go.
- [46:13]
Interviewer
Because there's this ridiculous stupid mentality that somehow you're going to waste the money and they're going to save the money when the reality is you know, what things cost, you know, the value. How many years ago was that when you bought that machine? I mean, you were a kid back then.
- [46:29]
Derek
20 some years old. In my early 20s.
- [46:31]
Randall Fleming
Right.
- [46:32]
Derek
We believe it was in 2013 we purchased that machine.
- [46:35]
Interviewer
So that machine was. Let's do math real quickly. So 2013, 23. So 12 years ago.
- [46:41]
Randall Fleming
Right.
- [46:41]
Interviewer
So that machine is 12 years old. How is it doing? It's fine.
- [46:46]
Jared Nelson
It's operational and doing everything we needed to do. And I think that was one thing that we were told we need to be able to produce parts here in Phillips, Wisconsin. And you know, what would you guys.
- [46:55]
Interviewer
Recommend had you worked at different companies before?
- [46:58]
Derek
Barry Waymiller, when I was in high school.
- [47:01]
Interviewer
So right out of high school here.
- [47:02]
Derek
Straight out of high, I worked at a company called Phelps Plating over across the road. And then I came here when I was 19.
- [47:08]
Interviewer
20 years old.
- [47:08]
Derek
1920 years old.
- [47:09]
Interviewer
Amazing. So your only experience of what work is like, it's here. Is here.
- [47:15]
Randall Fleming
Yep.
- [47:16]
Interviewer
You don't realize how good it is.
- [47:18]
Derek
Right.
- [47:18]
Simon Sinek
But I do. How do you know?
- [47:21]
Derek
I just know. You know, my brother works for a couple of companies and I've. You hear what he has to say about work every day and you come here and it's, it's a different story.
- [47:30]
Interviewer
How does he describe work?
- [47:32]
Derek
Just a punch, click, you know, a time clock, you know, number on the wall and go home, go to work, go home, go to work.
- [47:39]
Interviewer
Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.
- [47:40]
Derek
Yes.
- [47:42]
Interviewer
Is he happy?
- [47:44]
Derek
Oh, ish. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he gets by. But yeah, he's not happy. Going to work every day.
- [47:50]
Simon Sinek
Yeah.
- [47:50]
Derek
You know.
- [47:51]
Interviewer
Yeah. Had you, had, had you worked somewhere else before here?
- [47:54]
Jared Nelson
I had part time jobs before I started here, but I actually started here five days out of high school also.
- [47:58]
Interviewer
So both of you straight out of high school, do you know how do you know that it's good? I know this is your own experience, only experience.
- [48:05]
Jared Nelson
I know it was good. My dad actually was a long tenured in team member here. He had over 25 years and when I got out of high school, 18 years old, you know what you want to do the rest of your life? Not so much. Right. I figured this would be a good starting point. I went to school for fabrication, worked here part time and you know, once again I wanted to move on and possibly go into engineering. But I haven't had a reason to leave yet. And the amount of opportunities that we've been given here in Phillips, it doesn't feel like it's been 30 years because I've learned so much, so many different parts of the business. I work with a lot of great people, family oriented facility and I really enjoy it. My, my son works here now, my wife works here, my daughter in law works here. So Phillips is home.
- [48:48]
Interviewer
So your dad knew what it was like working here before Barry Wehmiller?
- [48:52]
Jared Nelson
Yes.
- [48:53]
Interviewer
How would he describe what it was like? Would he tell you the stories of old? How did he, how did you hear about it or maybe you saw it in your dad?
- [49:00]
Jared Nelson
I got to see a little bit of it myself because I started right before in 95, so I had about five years of that experience as well. Where you come to work and you'd be walking in with a friend, a co worker, and that afternoon you'd see him carrying his lunchbox or tools out the door because he was no longer a team member. Just got fired, just, you know, layoffs. Just a lot of fluctuation with, you know, who we had working and how much. Our business model was slower, fast. Yeah, there was always change. And that's one thing. We have a lot of stability.
- [49:30]
Interviewer
You've been here how many years now?
- [49:31]
Bob Chapman
17.
- [49:32]
Interviewer
So straight out of high school, been here 17 years. That's unusual for any, in any job, you know, manufacturing or, you know, sort of an office job for somebody to remain in a job these days with any company for 17 years, it's almost unheard of. What's the reason you stay? You know, there's opportunity. It's a big world out there.
- [49:49]
Derek
Well, was Phillips. I love living here like him. I have four children. They rely on me. And I go to bed at night, and I know when I wake up in the morning, I'm gonna have a job to come to every single day. And not only that, with, like, growth, opportunity. I've done a lot here. I've started be seen back by the laser. Took a role here in L3, and then I went to CPD and HR and was our safety leader here for four years. And now I'm in field service.
- [50:19]
Interviewer
So completely changed. Yes.
- [50:21]
Simon Sinek
Is that unusual in manufacturing?
- [50:23]
Interviewer
You know, if somebody starts on a factory floor, you know, they die on the factory floor. Is that. Is that a. Like, what's a normal manufacturing trajectory in America?
- [50:34]
Derek
I would say normal America would be that, yes, you're stuck on the floor and that's where you're going to stay.
- [50:39]
Interviewer
Small raises every year, hopefully.
- [50:42]
Derek
Now my field service. Field service, which means where we send our field guys out in the field to work. I'm actually running our PM programs. PM is preventative maintenance. So we have 116 contracts, and we sell those contracts to our customers for our techs to come in and maintenance their machines.
- [51:02]
Interviewer
What is your hope for American business?
- [51:06]
Simon Sinek
Based on what?
- [51:07]
Interviewer
You know, based on what you've seen possible, what's your dream for American business?
- [51:10]
Randall Fleming
Business.
- [51:12]
Jared Nelson
I would like to see, obviously, the business booms again and get these smaller towns back to being bright and vibrant and giving hope to the community to know that stability is here and families can prosper. And obviously, you know, some of us have been lucky enough to find that and stay here. But there's so much in this area that we all love, and that's the main reason why we've decided not to go anywhere. We don't want to lose. We want to keep jobs.
- [51:37]
Interviewer
Here in Phillips, you've used the word stability quite a.
- [51:42]
Simon Sinek
Quite a lot.
- [51:44]
Interviewer
And stability isn't just having a factory in a small town in America. You're not just simply talking about bringing businesses to and opening the factories in these towns. You're talking about how they're led.
- [51:56]
Bob Chapman
Right.
- [51:57]
Interviewer
What is. What is it that you want to see how the modern American factory is led? What do you want it to go from? What do you want it to go to?
- [52:07]
Jared Nelson
I think the terminology we even use, managers versus leaders. Right. We've. We've had opportunities to be led in our. In our jobs. And I've been Blessed to have a lot of great leaders. I know what a manager looked like as well, because I experienced that. But if we can get companies to start leading and growing and looking at the talent that you have within, looking at the opportunities that you can present with this team member. If they're loyal to a company, we're going to grow them. We're going to make them part of our business.
- [52:39]
Narrator
Language matters, and Bob knows it. He's obsessed with making sure his language perfectly captures his message. At Barry wehmiller, for example, they don't track their headcount. They track their heart count. Randall and I are standing on the floor where he started as a welder back in 1988. Today he's a production leader. The former loner now leads teams of people. The former skeptic is now one of the top rated professors at Barry wehmill university, teaching what he's learned about putting people first.
- [53:18]
Interviewer
One of the things that I love about this place is, you know, I've been to other factories before, and you've worked at many places before. They're dirty generally. And there's signs all over the place that say safety first. Safety first. Safety first. And the, you know, the how many days since we've had an accident is like four, you know, here it's spotless. There's no big signs everywhere that say safety first. Where are all the signs and how is it so clean?
- [53:49]
Randall Fleming
You're looking at all the signs. Everyone in this building is part of the culture. We're the science. It's the way that we are as team members and leaders, we support everyone. We support each other, we help each other. That's what this culture is about. And as a leader, my only real job, as I can see it, is to help my team succeed at all costs.
- [54:15]
Interviewer
When somebody feels seen, heard, understood, feel supported, as you said, we were all the signs, the reaction is, I want to keep this place clean. Not for me, but for you. I want to keep this place safe. I want to keep you safe because I care about you. And so you don't need big signs. Marketing campaigns that, let's be honest, they.
- [54:36]
Randall Fleming
Don'T work at all.
- [54:37]
Interviewer
It's just a way of management saying they are prioritizing safety. We're trying. And what a lot of companies don't realize is take care of the people. People will take care of each other and they'll take care of the space they're working in.
- [54:50]
Randall Fleming
Couldn't have said it any better myself.
- [54:57]
Narrator
The biggest lesson from Barry wehmiller is clear when we make people feel truly valued and take care of their lives.
- [55:05]
Simon Sinek
Lives.
- [55:06]
Narrator
They take care of each other. They show up, they step up. They outperform. Not because they have to, but because they want to. And all this in turn, takes good care of the company. This is exactly why I love Bob Chapman. He is my mentor, he is my friend, and he inspires me.
- [55:30]
Simon Sinek
I met you because you reached out to me and showed me this magical place. I got to know you, and I decided to write about this amazing place that you had built in a book I wrote called Leaders Eat Last. You're sort of a central character in that book, I would argue. And you and I have become friends over the years, and you've been a mentor to me. I've learned a lot about how to improve my own leadership ability from you. What have you learned, even about yourself, over these past 15 years?
- [56:05]
Bob Chapman
Well, Simon, when you came, we were on this journey, and it was just an incremental journey. And you came in and you saw something that we didn't see. I mean, we thought things were going well, but you amplified our awareness that we had been blessed. And so what I have learn, because since we first met, I've given hundreds of speeches around the world. The Harvard case study, the TEDx talk. You did the book. There's no question as I sit here today, since we first met, that some higher power is using us to show the world the way he meant it to be, where people genuinely care for each other. And I feel this today. I feel this tremendous calling to take this responsibility of this message I've been blessed with and make sure it lives well beyond my time with voices like yours, your books, your talks around the world. So I feel this tremendous sense of obligation. Why would somebody pick a manufacturing company in America that makes machinery to show the world what it should be? Okay, okay. Why would you pick a carpenter to be the father of our Christ? So I would say to you, I feel a profound. And it grows because the reaction. I mean, I speak in health care, I speak in the military, I speak in Congress, I speak in. Everywhere I speak, I see the hurt in the world. And so I'd say to you, what has been amplified is because you've opened the door to the world. How could we have a culture here in a traditional business that the world said, I've never seen anything like, how is that possible? I'm just a simple accountant from North St. Louis wanting to manufacture them because we were blessed with a message that could heal the world. And when I look today as we talk the issues we face in the world. I see business as a source of destruction, creating economic value, but not human value. And I feel a profound sense of responsibility with you and our partnership to change the way the world sees its responsibility to people they have the privilege of leading.
- [58:07]
Simon Sinek
I want to tell the story. When I first went on this tour of all your factories and I saw this thing and I remember saying to you, I can no longer be accused of being a crazy idealist because what I imagine exists in reality. I remember seeing the magic. And then you introduced me to the culture team that was responsible for these classes and a lot of what you. Helping you implement what you imagined. And after I'd seen this tour and you knew my opinion of what I'd seen, I remember they were all sitting there with big smiles, thinking, I was just going to say, you guys are amazing. You guys are amazing. They were waiting with a big smile on their face. And I remember my first comments to your culture team were, I think you may be the most selfish company I've ever met. I said, and I remember them all shocked, and I said, oh, yeah, I saw what you built and it is nothing short of remarkable and it is incredible what you have done for the lives of back then 3,000 people. I said, meanwhile, there are millions of people struggling at work and you are keeping to yourselves something that the world would benefit from. And I remember it was on that day you sort of said, batter up. And you started on the speaking circuit to share what you'd done. You've written your book, Everybody matters to get the word out there. You've set up consultancy to help companies learn what you're doing. You set up a not for profit to bring the listening courses to civil servants around the country so that they may benefit from. From the learning, so you can help policing organizations, ambulances, nurses, all of you know, firefighters, these are the people that you're helping with these courses. And it really is. It is an amazing thing. It's been an amazing thing for me to watch this small company that was very insular and doing something amazing, that you really are one of the leaders of the movement to make business a force for good, for the health of people, not just for the prosperity of people. It's been an amazing journey. Do you want to know how I've seen you change since I've met you?
- [60:11]
Bob Chapman
I gotten older.
- [60:13]
Simon Sinek
Well, not in spirit. You have the same amazing energy from when I first met you. You are softer. And I don't mean your voice is softer, I mean it Took years before I saw you choke up for the first time because of what you were saying. And I see you choke up more often now. It was always personal, but it's become really personal. And you're more willing to wear your emotions on your sleeve more than you used to. Even the way you used to give me sort of like, good to see you, Simon. Sort of like a tap on the shoulder, and then it became like a tap on the back and then it became a bro hug. And now you hug me. You hug me with love. And I've seen that. I felt that it's going to make me cry. I wish leaders took leadership as personally as you do. They see it as a rank or position. They see it as power and authority, but they don't take it as seriously as raising a child. And you take taking care of your people as seriously as taking care of your children. I mean, it is not a punchline. When you say that everybody who works for you is someone's son and someone's daughter.
- [61:40]
Interviewer
I mean.
- [61:43]
Simon Sinek
You deeply mean it. You deeply feel it. You know, I have the pleasure of getting to talk to you when we're off camera. And what people don't understand is this preaching that you do when you're on a microphone. This is how you are all the time.
- [61:59]
Interviewer
Like, can't you just have dinner?
- [62:00]
Bob Chapman
My wife reminds me of that all the time.
- [62:01]
Simon Sinek
Can't we just have dinner?
- [62:02]
Interviewer
It's like, oh, I got it, I got it, I heard it.
- [62:05]
Simon Sinek
But this is. This is. It's so ingrained in who you are and how personally you take this. It's such a source of inspiration. I gotta tell you. I know people who turn it on and turn it off, and you can't turn it off. It's core to who you are.
- [62:23]
Bob Chapman
I always say, Simon, you can retire from a job, but you cannot retire from a calling. Yeah, I'm sure you can imagine what it feels like when I get in front of crowds all over the world and I see people come to tears. I see get standing ovations because can you imagine how it feels Again, all the talks I've given in all parts of the country to have the most healing message that people ever heard. I mean, the reaction to our message universally, standing ovation emotions, because it gives people hope. To think that some higher power selected this kid from North St. Louis with an accounting degree to show the world the way he meant it to be is profoundly meaningful. I mean, I don't know how. I don't know how. You don't get emotional when you think I'm carrying a message that could heal the world. I mean, how do you handle something like that without emotion? I mean, it's not an academic feeling. It is right down here. And you can't say things about this message. When you get the feedback, the healing power of this is profound. And when look at the issues we face in this country and the world. When I get this exposure to talk to people all over the world and I see the same reaction. It's a universal truth in our world that people simply want to know they matter. And they simply want to know they matter.
- [63:42]
Simon Sinek
And the big joke of it all, the big joke of it all is you are one of the highest performing companies in your category. You outperform the markets. Your people love working here.
- [63:55]
Narrator
They work.
- [63:57]
Simon Sinek
People want their children to work here. You have generations of people working here. I met Lance before. His dad worked here. He works here, his kids work here. His daughter in law works here, his wife works here. I mean, and there are other opportunities, there are other places to work in Phillips. They want to work here. They want their kids to work here. Like to have that level of devotion and love. I talk to people. I walked around today. We talked to some of your folks who. It is a joy for them to go the extra mile for you. It doesn't feel like a burden or a task. And this is what is so astonishing to me that though you don't do it for the business reasons, the connection is so damn obvious. Your people are just better people than in other companies. They themselves are not better, but they are given the opportunity to be their best selves at Barry Wehmiller and the company. And they are the beneficiaries. Because a profitable company means you can expand and take more care of your people, better care of your people that you can. You can expand the number of classes available, you can invest in training and you can invest in all the nice things because the business model works. And this is the thing that drives me nuts. It drives me nuts that people want us to give economic reasons why they should do this rather than human reasons. I mean, it's like, give me an economic reason why I should be good to my child. You know, if I'm good to my child, will my child increase their earning potential?
- [65:30]
Bob Chapman
The good news is that we are clearly, with your help, your voice in the world, your book, your voice, your bike is the world, is, is validating that this is the way to go. And we are on a journey to transform and create a more caring world. Where people feel they matter, regardless of your role in the company, that you feel you matter. And when you do that, you see this goodness come out of people. Again, I want to make sure you cannot ask people to care. You can't go to the CEO of a major company and say, you need to care about your people. Say, sure, I do, but we're gonna have a layoff next week. But, you know, I care about them, okay, but I pay them well, and I get good value.
- [66:09]
Randall Fleming
It's.
- [66:09]
Bob Chapman
We have to change the whole perspective of our society, where we are stewards of the people we have the privilege to lead. I say to executives all the time, the greatest act of charity is not the checks you write to the cancer society or all those other noble causes. The greatest act of charity is how you treat the people you have the privilege of leading. Yeah, that is the greatest. And if we had that, we wouldn't need all the charities to fix the brokenness of the world.
- [66:33]
Simon Sinek
You told me a story a bunch of years ago of a wealthy guy who had retired, and he'd made boatloads of cash running a very, very large business. And he came to you for advice on how to be a philanthropist, on how to distribute that money.
- [66:50]
Bob Chapman
Yeah, this is a gentleman. In traditional terms, extremely successful. Had contributed $120 million to his alma mater and had heard me speak and just flew out to talk to me. He was touched by my speech. Good Christian man, good values, good midwestern values. And again, what led to that is I said, what are you proud of in your life? And he said, this minority student athletic scholarship program. I had no idea of his company, so I just said, again, how many people work for your company? He said, 100,000. I said, so you really care about five or six people you can help with a scholarship, and you don't care about the 100,000 people? And he virtually leaned back in his chair and he said, I never thought about that. And again, the one other story that amplifies that is I was giving a speech in a church, a major church, to a luncheon event, and I did it as a favor to somebody. And a gentleman came up to me running a major international organization, said, I thought my job was to be the market leader in our industry, in the world, and we achieved that. I thought that was my job, but until I heard you speak, it never occurred to me to care for the 130,000 people in our organization. Then he added, you've given me a whole different purpose to my role. And again, we have a society where we celebrate financial success, market share gains, and again, we don't look at how you treated people as. So again, the biggest message then is the way we treat people affects the way they go home and live. If we're worried about kids today, what's wrong with kids today? Where do they come from? They come from our families. Okay. What's wrong with their families? Parents come home from work exhausted. Okay, tgif. Thank God it's Friday. Get out of that place. I imagine a day with the work we're doing together. We're going to go to tgim. Thank goodness. It's money. Get away from the kids, the spouse, and be back to a place where I really enjoy being a part of the team. So I would say to you the vision that we've been working on for 13 years, we have made tremendous progress in bringing this message to the world and to make sure that it will not die with me, that it will live on well beyond our time. With your work, your book, your talks, and our new book, everybody, a new edition, we have a chance to shape the world that desperately is looking for hope right now.
- [69:15]
Simon Sinek
Well, I promised you. I sent you an email years ago.
- [69:17]
Bob Chapman
I know. It's framed in my office.
- [69:19]
Simon Sinek
I know, I know. I promised you years ago in an email. I sent you that I will carry your torch for all the years I have left and then I'll pass it.
- [69:41]
Interviewer
On to the next person.
- [69:44]
Bob Chapman
Thank you for your stewardship.
- [69:49]
Simon Sinek
I love you. I really do. I'm so grateful for that crazy one.
- [69:57]
Randall Fleming
Hour lunch that became a three hour.
- [69:59]
Simon Sinek
Lunch and this crazy adventure you've taken me on, you know, because we've said it a thousand times to each other. We validate each other's work. You know, I validated your work by saying, you know, in the marketplace, in sort of in my work. That's the right way, you know, I know. I validated your theories and your ideas at scale. And you validated my work because it's. I'm just an idiot idealist who writes about these, what could happen. And you made it real. This is a very large company. Make no mistake of it. This is thousands and thousands of employees, billions of dollars worth of revenue. International, global company. I mean, this is not some little mom and popcorn store that takes care of its people. This is a large operation at scale. And you prove that not only are the people happier and their families are happier and their communities are happier, but it is a phenomenal recipe for prosperity. Healthy people make for prosperous companies and healthy people make for prosperous nations. Bob, thank you for being a light, a beacon. Thank you for being who you are. We should probably turn it off right.
- [71:12]
Interviewer
Now before we both just blubberfest.
- [71:18]
Bob Chapman
But, yeah, I love you, what you're doing. I see your soul when you talk because we've touched your soul. Not your mind, your soul. This is the way the world was meant to be. And when you see it, you know that this is the way it was meant to be. That we learn to care for each other.
- [71:38]
Simon Sinek
Amen.
- [71:39]
Bob Chapman
Amen. Thank you.
- [71:46]
Narrator
A Bit of Optimism is a production of of the Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbinius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonsinek. Com.
- [72:02]
Simon Sinek
Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself.
- [72:05]
Narrator
Take care of each other.