We All Get Cancelled One Day with Somebody Feed Phil’s Phil Rosenthal

Summary

Podcast Summary: "We All Get Cancelled One Day" with Phil Rosenthal on "A Bit of Optimism"

Podcast Information:

• Title: A Bit of Optimism
• Host: Simon Sinek
• Guest: Phil Rosenthal
• Episode Title: We All Get Cancelled One Day with Somebody Feed Phil’s Phil Rosenthal
• Release Date: June 17, 2025

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Introduction: A Feast of Conversation

In this episode of "A Bit of Optimism," Simon Sinek sits down with Phil Rosenthal, the creative mind behind "Everybody Loves Raymond" and the charming host of "Somebody Feed Phil." The episode uniquely blends their mutual love for food with deep conversations about creativity, resilience, and human connection.

Notable Quote:

[00:27] Phil Rosenthal: "Somebody Talk to Simon."

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The Journey of Creating a TV Show

Phil Rosenthal delves into his extensive journey in the television industry, highlighting the challenges of shifting from a successful sitcom like "Everybody Loves Raymond" to developing a food and travel show. He emphasizes the difficulty of pitching new show concepts in a rapidly changing media landscape.

Notable Quote:

[04:20] Phil Rosenthal: "Do the show you want to do because in the end they're gonna cancel you anyway."

Sinek and Rosenthal discuss the dichotomy between high-concept and low-concept shows. High-concept shows, which rely on a unique premise, often struggle with longevity due to repetitive storytelling. In contrast, low-concept shows, grounded in everyday life, offer endless storytelling possibilities without the constraints of a fixed premise.

Notable Quote:

[08:03] Phil Rosenthal: "Higher concept would be a show where we're from Mars... That would get boring and repetitive."

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Embracing Specificity for Universal Connection

A significant portion of the conversation centers on the power of specificity in storytelling. Rosenthal explains how incorporating specific, relatable experiences into narratives makes content more universally appealing. This principle was instrumental in the success of "Everybody Loves Raymond," where personal anecdotes and real-life situations resonated with a broad audience.

Notable Quote:

[31:22] Phil Rosenthal: "The more specific you get in your writing, the more universally it becomes."

Sinek echoes this sentiment, noting that specificity allows listeners or viewers to find their own relevant experiences within the story, fostering a deeper connection.

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The Role of Execution in Creative Success

Both hosts agree that execution is paramount in the creative process. While numerous ideas circulate in the creative realm, the ability to effectively execute these ideas distinguishes successful projects from unsuccessful ones. Rosenthal recounts his struggles in selling new show concepts and how perseverance and flawless execution ultimately led to the creation and success of "Somebody Feed Phil."

Notable Quote:

[10:12] Phil Rosenthal: "It's the execution that makes the difference."

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Navigating Industry Changes and AI’s Impact

The conversation shifts to the evolving landscape of the entertainment industry, particularly the rise of AI and its potential to disrupt traditional creative roles. Rosenthal expresses concern over AI's ability to replicate creative processes, emphasizing the irreplaceable value of human creativity and emotional connection.

Notable Quote:

[54:31] Simon Sinek: "AI is derivative... It’s like stealing."

Sinek counters by suggesting that technology reshapes creative focus rather than outright replacing human creativity. He draws parallels with the music industry’s transformation from album sales to streaming, illustrating how artists adapted by pivoting their business models.

Notable Quote:

[46:13] Simon Sinek: "Technology changes our lives. And you can change with it, or you can go kicking and screaming, or you can go out of business."

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Personal Stories: Lessons from Life and Work

Phil shares personal anecdotes that highlight the importance of stepping out of one's comfort zone and embracing new experiences. He recounts a memorable cold plunge in Ireland, a pivotal moment that taught him resilience and the value of trying new things. This experience has since become a daily practice, symbolizing his commitment to personal growth.

Notable Quote:

[62:02] Phil Rosenthal: "I built myself up from 10 seconds to 30 seconds of cold shower. It brings me right back there."

The discussion also touches on the significance of humor and gratitude in personal and professional life. Phil credits his parents' sense of humor as foundational to his own comedic style, while Simon emphasizes the difference between feeling lucky and being grateful.

Notable Quote:

[65:18] Phil Rosenthal: "I'm already grateful... and that informs everything I do."

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The Enduring Power of Human Connection

Towards the end of the episode, both Simon and Phil underscore the irreplaceable role of human interaction in fostering meaningful connections. They discuss how shared experiences, like enjoying a great meal together, build lasting relationships and create moments of joy and gratitude.

Notable Quote:

[40:48] Phil Rosenthal: "Food is the great connector... So that's how friends are made. That's how romance begins."

They argue that while technology can facilitate certain aspects of life, the essence of human connection—such as sharing stories, laughing together, and expressing gratitude—remains uniquely human and essential for a fulfilling life.

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Conclusion: Embracing Optimism and Gratitude

The episode wraps up with a heartfelt exchange between Simon and Phil, reinforcing the themes of gratitude, resilience, and the pursuit of passion. Phil's journey exemplifies the importance of staying true to one's vision despite industry pressures and the inevitability of change.

Notable Quote:

[51:17] Phil Rosenthal: "We create the world we want to live in."

Simon encourages listeners to adopt a platform of gratitude, focusing on what they have and sharing it with others to foster a more connected and optimistic world.

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Final Thoughts: "We All Get Cancelled One Day" offers an insightful and engaging conversation that intertwines the love for food with profound discussions on creativity, industry evolution, and the human spirit. Phil Rosenthal's experiences serve as a testament to the power of perseverance, specificity, and the enduring importance of genuine human connections.

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Notable Additional Quotes:

• [17:04] Phil Rosenthal: "We all get canceled one day, we all get canceled. So live the life you want to live."
• [32:00] Phil Rosenthal: "We forgot how to care for each other."
• [40:38] Simon Sinek: "This cheesecake is one of the top five desserts I've ever had in my life."

Transcript

[Simon Sinek]

This episode is brought to you by True Classic. The way they became our sponsor is because I loved their T shirts. And so we just called them up and asked them if they wanted to work together, and they said yes. So check out their [e-mail] you created everybody Loves Raymond and Somebody Feed Phil. It's always got some name in it.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

So what would you name my show?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Somebody Talk to Simon.

[Simon Sinek]

So Lonely. Before we turn on the cameras and the mics, I tell every guest who comes on the show that this is not like an interview show that they're used to. It's more like a conversation. I tell them to imagine that we're out for a meal and the people sitting next to us are eavesdropping on us because our conversation is better than theirs. Well, for this episode, we decided to do just that. Literally. As soon as I heard that Phil Rosenthal, the brilliant creator and executive producer behind Everybody Loves Raymond and the joyful heart and face of somebody Feet Phil, who's coming on the show, I wanted to give him food. So we turned our little podcast into an even littler restaurant. Please pull up a chair at our table for the latest episode of Somebody Talk to Simon. I mean, a bit of optimism. I warned you before we turned the cameras on, which is we have so much damn food that we brought.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Don't finish anything because we have to get through it all. And I haven't had breakfast, so I'm spacey.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Great. I had a little protein drink, so. So that's. You're hungry, too, but good. Oh, yeah, yeah. But that's my secret. By the way, the number one question I get is how come I'm not fat? And it is. One reason is I don't finish anything. If you see me eating like crazy on the show. Yeah, I am, but I'm not really. Unless it's the, like, most delicious thing I've ever had. And I'm. No, I'll never get to this part of Chiang Mai again to have this bowl of cow soy. I'm finishing it, and I'm maybe ordering another one. If you're in a town that's famous for certain dishes. Yeah, you want those dishes?

[Simon Sinek]

Those dishes.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You have to.

[Simon Sinek]

Let's get our first dish out here. Let's get. Let's get our breakfast dish out, because we got. We got. We've got not just courses. We have breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You really thought this out.

[Simon Sinek]

We have a lot of food. So what we decided to do is there's a bunch of great Restaurants in Los Angeles, which is where you and I live.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Listen, if you can't travel, live in la, because the world is here and.

[Simon Sinek]

We have a bunch of great restaurants. And so we ordered like some of the dishes from some great places. Look at that. Bring it on in. Thank you, David. So I haven't. I love a breakfast burrito.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Hi. I love a breakfast burrito, too. It's one of my favorite things.

[Simon Sinek]

So I. I love a breakfast burrito. My favorite breakfast burrito in Los Angeles is from a place called Oaks Gourmet.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Don't know.

[Simon Sinek]

In Los Feliz. We'll go. It's. It's my favorite. But somebody recently recommended.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

These. Which is from a coffee joint called. I think it's called Civil Coffee or Civic Coffee. Civil Coffee. Civil Coffee.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Civil Coffee.

[Simon Sinek]

I've never tried this breed. No idea. Highly recommend.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Is that here in Sherman Oak?

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, it's not far. It's in Studio City. Anyway, there's cheese and egg.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And then bacon and cheese or bacon and egg.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Wow. I'm trying cheese and egg.

[Simon Sinek]

I'm going for bacon.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Okay. I don't know, my friend. It's very good to see you.

[Simon Sinek]

This is good. Yeah, this is good. I will say, this ranks up there is extremely good. It was like Oaks Gourmet. Still my favorite breakfast burrito.

[Phil Rosenthal]

All right. You're going to happy to try that.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

So no offense, I'm not finishing anything.

[Simon Sinek]

No, no, no.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Taking bites.

[Simon Sinek]

What made you want to start an eating show in the first place, other than the obvious, which is to get paid to travel around the world to eat? It sounds like a good gig.

[Phil Rosenthal]

It's a scam. You talk to people who. Leaders in business. They're not as honest as I am.

[Simon Sinek]

It's a scam. Right?

[Phil Rosenthal]

It's a scam.

[Simon Sinek]

And what are you. Seven season in this.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Coming up now is season eight.

[Simon Sinek]

Season eight. Did you imagine when you came up with the idea that it would get picked up for eight seasons?

[Phil Rosenthal]

No. Your help open to fool one guy at a network and maybe they'll let you film one. By the way, the first time we filmed one.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I think it was Barcelona. We started on pbs. The first one we filmed was Barcelona. And I have my first scene, which is a meal. And the meal was so fantastic. I said, if we're canceled right now, Dainu, it's worth it. It was worth it. Everything I went through, and it took 10 years to get the show.

[Simon Sinek]

How? What? Yes, but hold on.

[Phil Rosenthal]

This is today's lesson.

[Simon Sinek]

There was precedent. There was Precedent. Like, you had Bourdain, who did his cooking show, traveled around the world. He's like.

[Phil Rosenthal]

But he was Anthony Bourdain. I mean, that, that was a sexy superstar. Look at me. It wasn't an easy sell.

[Simon Sinek]

So I want to know. So, okay, so you had phone numbers because of Everyone Loves Raymond. So you know who to call and they'll take your call.

[Phil Rosenthal]

They don't want that call. Hey, you know what I've got for you now? After having a somewhat successful sitcom, me as the host of a travel show, my own agents looked at me as if I pooped on the carpet. They didn't want to hear it.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Phil Rosenthal]

The reason I shifted gears that way is because after Everybody Loves Raymond was over, I had been there for nine years. The business changed greatly in those nine years. They. They didn't want that kind of show anymore. They wanted hip and edgy shows.

[Simon Sinek]

They were moving from Everyone Loves Raymond to something like Friends. Okay.

[Phil Rosenthal]

They just wanted Friends.

[Simon Sinek]

Got it. That was that formula.

[Phil Rosenthal]

They wanted young, hip family sitcoms. Right. Looking. Yes. And it's. You know, we had a hard time selling Raymond when we sold Raymond because it was already declasse. It wasn't. It's not sexy to people. The family sitcom. Although if you look back at television comedy history, it's the building block of networks.

[Simon Sinek]

All in the Family.

[Phil Rosenthal]

All in the Family. Go back to I Love Lucy, a domestic. Best. Happy Days, The Honeymooners. Domestic, not workplace, domestic family sitcoms with kids or without kids.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Well, that's not what a young executive or even an old executive wants on their resume. Because that's not cool. Right. And when they get fired from this job, they want a resume that says I'm still relevant.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I'm not doing Old Fashioned Raymond.

[Simon Sinek]

Even though the data shows that's really funny.

[Phil Rosenthal]

That is always a number one show.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

If it's done right.

[Simon Sinek]

If it's done right. Of course.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I distinctly remember wanting in the age of Seinfeld and Friends to do the opposite. Not even. Because that's all I could do. Is that. Because that's my wheelhouse. I would know how to do the hip and edgy.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Young, hip sitcom. But business wise, why would you do something that's already existence. Already there?

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Maybe you last a season or two and maybe you get a little luckier, but you're copying what's out there.

[Simon Sinek]

Now, is that your personality? Are you a contrarian or is it. Okay, so it's, It's. That's funny.

[Phil Rosenthal]

No, And I disagree with you. Completely.

[Simon Sinek]

So you're not a contrarian, but you. It's for your own creative. Because doing nine years of a thing.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

How do you keep. I mean, you're in the writers room.

[Phil Rosenthal]

How do you.

[Simon Sinek]

How does it. How's that fresh after nine years.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I mean, we could do a whole show about this. But I'll give you the short answer. If you sell something that's high concept, do you know what high concept.

[Simon Sinek]

Say. Say more.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Okay. High concept would be a show where we're from Mars, our family's from Mars, and we're gonna live on a street and pretend to be normal Americans. Okay. That's a high concept show. Now, with a high concept show, they have to serve that premise every week. Right. That would get boring and repetitive and can't last very long. Can last maybe a few seasons, tops.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Because every week, oh, no, they're gonna find out we're from Mars. So it's the same story practically, Right? Yes. You can have little stories that weave in and out, but that main premise is going to have to be served. Right. Okay, you know what low concept is? Low concept is a guy who lives across the street from his parents with his family, Right? That's very low concept.

[Simon Sinek]

Go forever.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And it's not hip and edgy and it doesn't sell because it doesn't sound like something novel. Right? But in television, like in movies, like in books, like in anything we do in life, it's all about the execution, right? So if you execute that premise, the guy with his family who lives across the street from his parents, the possibilities of episodes are almost as endless as real life.

[Simon Sinek]

Right?

[Phil Rosenthal]

And so if you worked for me, your job on Everybody Loves Raymond was to go home, get in a fight with your wife, and come back in and tell me about it.

[Simon Sinek]

And that it's everyday life.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Everyday life is infinite. The possibilities are infinite.

[Simon Sinek]

Do you know what I find?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Or at least nine years.

[Simon Sinek]

Do you know? At least nine years.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Do you know what I find so funny about this? Which is. And it goes to what you said about the executive who's making decisions, whether they know it or not or admit it or not.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

They're making the decisions for their career, their reputation, their resume, not necessarily for the.

[Phil Rosenthal]

For what people want for a long time to learn that.

[Simon Sinek]

And if you think about it, like, even the pitches you're talking about, which is we have a show about people living normal lives where they have fights with their spouses and they have kids and their kids are annoying. We're Selling shows for the pitch the day of the meeting.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Exactly.

[Simon Sinek]

Not for actual. The longevity or the ability to create great entertainment. And then you say, we have a great writer's room. We've got some great. And that's where the magic happens. I'm assuming.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I hear ideas all the time.

[Simon Sinek]

The concept is just a package, Right?

[Phil Rosenthal]

The concept. Any idea is valid.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

It's the execution. Look, we just ate two breakfast burritos.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

We love a breakfast burrito. You and I both admit it's a great thing. It's breakfast that you hold in your hand. We love the tortilla. We love everything about it. But what's in it that makes the difference?

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Why do you love the one from Oaks more than the one we just ate? Why do you love that?

[Simon Sinek]

Because it has a fried egg in it where it actually has gooey yolk, which is unheard of in a breakfast burrito. There you go. That's one of the reasons I like it.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I had it that way, and I don't know why more people don't do it. It actually tastes better because there's extra sauce.

[Simon Sinek]

It's extra. It comes with free sauce.

[Phil Rosenthal]

It comes with. Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

So that's. We're the same, but that's everything.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

What's in the burrito is everything.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah. Right.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Not that it's a burrito. Tell me what's in it. Tell me how you make it.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, so as you and I are talking, we have more food coming in.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Here comes.

[Simon Sinek]

Oh, now, you may know this is dangerous. This is.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Don't tell me. This is.

[Simon Sinek]

This is from Anajak Tai.

[Phil Rosenthal]

This is one of the best. Oh, my buddy Justin. Hi. Are you buddy. Everybody, this is Justin. He's a genius. Good. You've never met.

[Simon Sinek]

We've never met.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Well, this is nice.

[Simon Sinek]

Justin's Louis. We should tell everybody. This is from Anna Jack Thai.

[Phil Rosenthal]

This is some of the best fried chicken in the world.

[Simon Sinek]

Anna Jack Thai is a very hard to get into restaurant in Los Angeles that's closed on the day we're shooting. But you brought us food anyway. Thank you very, very much. Thanks for bringing it by. I didn't even know you were gonna be here. So nice to meet you. Just wanted to say hello. Just so kind. Here.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Listen, enjoy. Not only is this some of the best fried chicken in the world, it will be featured at my daughter's wedding.

[Simon Sinek]

You're having anijaktay at a wedding?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

God bless you.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Love ya. Love you.

[Simon Sinek]

All right, I'm coming in.

[Phil Rosenthal]

It's perfect. It's perfect.

[Simon Sinek]

That's good.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

This is really good fried chicken. I only got. I've only been to Anujak Thai once, mainly because I couldn't get in.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Well, this is your. Not only did it come to you.

[Simon Sinek]

The guy came to the guy. The guy. The guy who is.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Why did Justin come?

[Simon Sinek]

I don't know. That was a surprise.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I've never met him.

[Simon Sinek]

I never met him. I didn't know he was coming, so that was a real treat. We were talking about what I think so interesting about this, this idea of the execution. You're 100% right, but nobody sells the execution. They always sell.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You can't.

[Simon Sinek]

They always sell. But it's everything. It's our resumes. It's just. It's not just creative products.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I don't guarantee execution either. But how do we know? How do we know?

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, I guess that's.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You want to take an ed. You. You want to take. Take.

[Simon Sinek]

That's the bet people make, right? Which is I show you my resume and you're going to take a educated guess. I went on a tour of Apple. The Apple historian is the guy who took me around and he was saying one of the cultural things that Steve Jobs built into this place was nobody cares what you've done, they care what you're going to do.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

It's all about future.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

And you said that they'd hire these fancy people from Facebook or Google, these fancy engineers who may have worked on some famous fancy product and they'd walk around like they walk on water. And like, do you know who I am? Do you know what I've done in my career? And invariably somebody will say to them in a meeting, we don't care what you've done, we care what you're going to do. And I think the idea of people living on their past accomplishments.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

And this is sort of because, let's be honest. Yes, you could have given what you did with Raymond, you could have absolutely showed up and said, we're going to do another Raymond type show of a family. And you would have been. You could have sold that the next day because you've got a quote, unquote, got the proven track record.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You want to know the truth?

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Had a spin off of Raymond. Ready, Ready to go. Because my. I love the writers so much in that writer's room. And I know. Knew that this was an exceptional team.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

These are some of the best comedy writers in the world. How do we stay together? We loved each other. We know the show has Run its course. But now, how do we drive the car over here?

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Phil Rosenthal]

We had a spin off already featuring the brother, the brother's wife, and the brother's wife's family. Now we're gonna shift gears and do another family in a different situation. The brother's wife's family, by the way, was Chris Elliott, Georgia Engel, and Fred Willard. Couldn't be better.

[Simon Sinek]

Great cast.

[Phil Rosenthal]

They were on the show 30 times, so proven, right? They said no because the studio said no. The network. The network said no because now these people. This is not the kind of show we want to do anymore. Everyone in your cast is 40 or older. We're looking for young. They said no.

[Simon Sinek]

So it didn't matter.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Didn't matter. So I tried to write another pilot. No. My sensibility was not.

[Simon Sinek]

It wasn't even the prediction. Right?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Didn't matter.

[Simon Sinek]

Didn't matter.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And my agent said, they like you. Just be more hip and edgy. That's all. I said, well, you got the right guy. I'm Mr. Hip and Edgy, right? And it is funny.

[Simon Sinek]

Is it rude to laugh when somebody says I'm hippon. Edgy?

[Phil Rosenthal]

I do these live shows and I tell the story and I get laughs. I say, you know, I think they said sexy, and my wife fell off the couch. So after years of struggling against this tidal wave of hip and edgy, right. I said, wait a minute. What about this dream that I have to do this? You're gonna beat your head against the wall anyway of show business. Pick a spot in the wall that you might love. And so I did. And then convincing people was another story.

[Simon Sinek]

How many years after Raymond did you start pitching the.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I would say about four. So years. So I'd say about three or four years of struggle, and then a whole new struggle. Now I did other things in between, but always I was driving towards this. And then I sold it finally to pbs. My agents didn't even want me to go to.

[Simon Sinek]

So what was the reason they said yes?

[Phil Rosenthal]

I sold it with one line. I said, I'm exactly like Anthony Bourdain. If he was afraid of everything.

[Simon Sinek]

Got it.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And they said, we've been looking for a food and travel show with humor for years, but I wasn't allowed to go to cbc PBS by my agents because they said, there's no money at pbs. That turns out to be true. But they had money for six episodes, and we did them. And then here came Netflix.

[Simon Sinek]

Oh, so Netflix saw it.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And came after you.

[Phil Rosenthal]

They were just kind of starting what.

[Simon Sinek]

I'm Trying to get out of your story is where the lessons are for how people live regular lives. Not everybody's going to be selling TV shows or is necessarily show business. But the idea. I mean, you've said it. If you're going to have to beat your head against a wall, pick something you like doing and beat your head against that wall.

[Phil Rosenthal]

The best advice I ever got from anybody was from Ed Weinberger, a great show creator and showrunner. Mary Tyler Moore show and Taxi and great classic sitcoms that I idolized. As I'm writing the pilot for Everybody Loves Raymond, I asked him for advice. He says this. Do the show you want to do because in the end they're going to cancel you anyway. That's a life lesson. We all get canceled one day, we all get canceled. So live the life you want to live.

[Simon Sinek]

It's the. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so this one.

[Phil Rosenthal]

More food.

[Simon Sinek]

More food. We got lots of food. So this one's great. So there is a place. Thank you, David. There is a place on Ventura called the Joint. Do you know the joint?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Nope.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay. The joint is. Ah, there's our nori. Our seaweed. So the joint is the best fishmonger in Los Angeles. Like, if you ever are cooking at home and you want to make fish, go get their dry aged or a salmon. Here's how good it is. As I'm preparing to cook it, I'm eating it off the fish because it's that good, right?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Sushi grade.

[Simon Sinek]

And they just recently started offering hand rolls at their joint. It's a fishmonger and coffee shop. I know. What a combination.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Anyway, so you can now get hand rolls there. So they put together a bento box. You can get it to go. This is how it comes. We're supposed to make our own hand rolls.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Great.

[Simon Sinek]

I'm keeping unbrand. I have Star wars chopsticks for us.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. They light up.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Are we going to duel? I mean, I love it, you know, this is fantastic.

[Simon Sinek]

So you can be a good guy or a bad guy.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I'd be a little of both.

[Simon Sinek]

A little both. There you go. Good and bad. And I think this is. This was. Samuel L. Jackson was the only one with a purple one. And I think the reason he asked for a purple one is so he would stand out in the scene.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Also purple. He's cool.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah. So these chopsticks are incredibly hard to use. They're pretty, but impractical.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You're free to use fingers too.

[Simon Sinek]

Free to use fingers. I'm gonna Just use my fingers because I'm the one eating it.

[Phil Rosenthal]

But I have to try these.

[Simon Sinek]

I've never made a hand roll, for the record, but we're making them now. Well done. Food going everywhere. What I might do.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Is just eat some of this.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes. Good idea.

[Simon Sinek]

Because it looks so good. I love sushi.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Me, too.

[Simon Sinek]

That is gorgeous.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Have you been to Japan?

[Simon Sinek]

Four times. I love it. It's my favorite place in the world. Did you have. Did you have the egg salad sandwich at 7 11?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Best egg salad sandwich of my life.

[Phil Rosenthal]

So last season we did Kyoto, and it blew me away.

[Simon Sinek]

Did you go, okay, Kyoto?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Did you go to. There's a restaurant in the woods.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Nope.

[Simon Sinek]

Oh, I wish I talked to you before you went to Kyoto.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I wish you did, but I'll be back because it got in deep with me. It really had a profound impact on me. Kyoto, I thought it was spectacular.

[Simon Sinek]

And there's a great pizza place. Some of the best pizza I've had in my life was in Kyoto. Yes.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

I went there. It was incredible.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Great.

[Simon Sinek]

There's a restaurant. It's in the middle of the woods. It's a tofu restaurant, but you sit on the floor. Very Japanese.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And literally, you tell the taxi, take me here. They drop you off in a parking lot, and you're like, well, where the hell's the restaurant?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And you put it in your phone and your gps, and you realize you're nowhere near it. And you start walking through the woods. How is that?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Amazing. So fresh and clean.

[Simon Sinek]

And they make them for you when you go, wow. But, my God, I love this place.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Oh, my God.

[Simon Sinek]

Just need a minute.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Crispy.

[Simon Sinek]

Everything's nice. So you walk through the woods. You're literally walking. You're like, where the hell is this? You're in the middle of trees everywhere. And then in the distance, you see a little house, and you're like, I think that's it. And you go to the house, the door opens, you take your shoes off. It's the restaurant. You sit in the woods. It's the most magical meal.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Japan is magical.

[Simon Sinek]

Japan is magical.

[Phil Rosenthal]

They know how to live.

[Simon Sinek]

And they don't invent everything. They perfect everything. Like, they didn't invent pizza, but, my God, it was the best pizza I've ever had in my life.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Whatever they focus on, they make perfect and beautiful. When I first got to Tokyo, I thought, I'm in a pinball machine. I don't get it. I'm walking outside. I'm in, like, some kind of Times Square. And then I get on the subway and go, 40 minutes I'm in another Times Square. I don't understand. It's like New York Times, Los Angeles. Yeah. You can't believe the density and the scope and it was overwhelming. And I understood Lost in Translation, where you want to hide in your hotel room.

[Simon Sinek]

That movie is so good at capturing that feeling.

[Phil Rosenthal]

However, first restaurant I went into, calm, serene, beautiful, magical stuff starts coming to the table and you're, you're transported and you start to get it really quick that they can't control the outside, but what they can control, they make perfect and beautiful.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

My joke is if you go to the pharmacy and buy a pack of gum, they wrap it for you as if it's for your hundredth birthday and it's just a great way to be. The other like mind blowing lesson I got was there's little kids on the street. You've even seen videos of this. 3 year olds going to the store for their parents, going out into the street. Like imagine Ventura Boulevard. A three year old's walking alone, going into the store, buying something, coming back on the street alone. How is this possible? Oh, somebody said the community cares for the children. I'm like, what? What?

[Simon Sinek]

But we've forgotten that as a society.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

We've forgotten that as a society. Which.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

You know, if you go to like lower income neighborhoods, everybody sits on the front porch and they raise each other's kids. And then as soon as you start accumulating any kind of wealth, you move to the middle class and the suburbs and above everybody moves to the back of the house and you keep your own kids separated from everybody. And there's something to be said for like, and I've been to like slums like Daravi in the middle of Mumbai.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

This, this large slum with a million people.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

In one square mile, whatever it is.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

And kids are running around and they're safe because everybody's looking out for everybody's kids. And that's why it works. But what? Like, like it's.

[Phil Rosenthal]

We forgot how to care for each other.

[Simon Sinek]

We forgotten how to care for each other. And we put walls up in front of each, you know, walls up. And I mean, but this is city living, right? I mean that's what, that's what urban living is, which is you live in your apartment in New York City or.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Any city and you have five deadbolts on the door and you have five.

[Simon Sinek]

Deadboats and you don't know your neighbors, even though literally you share a hallway with them, Forget about a street.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I live in a very nice neighborhood, and people don't come out of their house there.

[Simon Sinek]

I make a point when somebody moves into our neighborhood to go knock on my door, of course, say hello. And it's for a very simple reason. It's like all of us around are my. Where I live.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Like, somebody will call me.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

And be like, hey, there's a package that's been outside your front door for two days. Do you want me to go get it? I'm guessing you're not home. You know that idea as opposed to having it just sit there and like somebody who's scoping the house, you know, like just people looking out for each other. It's just a nice thing.

[Phil Rosenthal]

It's what it want to live in. It's a world, and we create the world we want to live in. Because the world exists, but the way you want to use it, the way you want to execute it, it's up to you.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, so Netflix picks up your show from pbs.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Which is a dream.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Dream.

[Simon Sinek]

They say you're in the big leagues now.

[Phil Rosenthal]

They actually asked me, had the nicest meeting I've ever had. I've been doing show business for 30, 35 years. Nicest meeting ever. Imagine this. You go to a meeting and they say, is there anything you didn't have over there at the last place that you'd like to have? Who says that to you?

[Simon Sinek]

Wow.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I said, I'd like a theme song.

[Simon Sinek]

Is that what you asked for? Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

They said you can have a theme song. So I called this band, Lake Street Dive, who I'd met years before. I like them. I said, would you want to do a theme song for a TV show? They said, you're a TV show?

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

They said, sure. So I wrote some lyrics and sent to them and they wrote some additional better lyrics and this catchy tune that nobody skips on the.

[Simon Sinek]

That's your.

[Phil Rosenthal]

On the show. And it's become my favorite song.

[Simon Sinek]

And what you said before, which is this idea that this advice you got, make the show you want because it's going to get canceled anyway.

[Phil Rosenthal]

That's right.

[Simon Sinek]

So whether you get one years or nine years, you're going to have a fun time doing because it's the show you want to do, which really is just a microcosm of what life is, which is we're all going to die. There's one thing that we can. I can guarantee is we're all going to die. But the problem is, is life, we hope, is Long. And so we don't live our life with that sense of make the thing you want because we think, oh, I'll get to it, or I need to do this responsible thing first.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Why else are we here? Why else are we here if we don't. If we. We can't know the meaning of life? I mean, we could spend our lives studying that, Right? But I think without any studying, I think we're supposed to enjoy ourselves.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah. Was Raymond your big break?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

So what were you doing before?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Well, I would say big break would be your first job in television writing at all, which was the Robert Mitchum sitcom in 1989.

[Simon Sinek]

Oh, my God.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes. That's the right response. Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

I didn't.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Terrible.

[Simon Sinek]

No. Robert Mitchum had a sitcom he shouldn't.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Have that lasted seven episodes.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay.

[Phil Rosenthal]

But what you can learn from your first job in the field, you can learn from any job in the field. Right? So I learned what not to do. I learned how bad it can be. What.

[Simon Sinek]

What didn't work there. What was the big lesson?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Did the premise, Number one, you don't put Robert Mitchum in a sitcom, it doesn't belong. But the story behind that was he had been in a TV movie, when they remember TV movies.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And this genre of TV movies called a warmedy.

[Simon Sinek]

A war.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Warmedy.

[Simon Sinek]

Warmedy.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Warm feeling. Not a comedy, not a drama, a warmody.

[Simon Sinek]

Oh, that's terrible.

[Phil Rosenthal]

So a lukewarm bath of shit.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Just nothing.

[Simon Sinek]

This. I don't know what this is. This is a surprise.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Hello. Oh, my God.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, this is totally. I don't know what this is. This is my surprise. This is. This is chicken liver mousse. Wink, wink. I don't know where this is from. I don't know anything about this.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Wait, that looks familiar. I know this. Why do I know this? You gotta tell us where it's from.

[Simon Sinek]

Petit Trois.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah. L' Rolle Lefebvre is the great French chef who opened Petit Trois. You've been to Petit Trois or no?

[Simon Sinek]

No.

[Phil Rosenthal]

So he's. He's a brilliant French chef.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay.

[Phil Rosenthal]

He's a friend of mine. We filmed with him when we did an LA episode. We didn't have this. Wow.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, so wow.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You and I grew up with chicken liver red wine mixed in with this.

[Simon Sinek]

It's very different than my mother's.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Beautiful sauteed onions underneath, fresh as bread.

[Simon Sinek]

And when you get to about here, about three quarters in, that's where you have the heart attack.

[Phil Rosenthal]

But if you're gonna go, this is A good way to go.

[Simon Sinek]

So you have your big break with your seven episode dramedy Warmody.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes, right. And I start to. First of all, I'm thrilled because I'm splitting a salary. I had a partner at the time, and that's a very good way to break in is you, you have a partner and what the reason you're attractive to them is because you're two for one. They pay one salary that you guys split. So I'm splitting $1,000 a week. I'm getting $500 a week and within a few weeks I'm a thousandaire. And I think this is the greatest thing because I went from eating tuna fish for dinner to eating whatever I wanted and I can afford the rent and I can now, you know, I get that go gets me another job. Jobs beget jobs.

[Simon Sinek]

Right?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Now I've had the experience. Now, you know, if they like you at all, you're, you're welcome. And after a few years now, my partner and I don't need to be partners anymore. Nothing, nothing personal, right.

[Simon Sinek]

It's just like your, your careers are now solid enough that you can go.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Do your own thing. Let's make one salary for one person. That'd be good. And I get a tape of a comedian named Ray Romano.

[Simon Sinek]

Where was Ray in his, in his career?

[Phil Rosenthal]

He had been a stand up comedian. He'd been working 12 years to try to get on David Letterman show. And he finally gets on and from that one six minute appearance, Letterman says there should be a show for this Ray Romano. There should be a sitcom. And Letterman had a producing deal with cbs. Now the way it works in Hollywood is comedians and their people start looking for writers to create shows for their clients for the comedian. And writers are just looking for comedic talent to write for. So you take a meeting over lunch usually. We met at Arts Deli on Ventura Boulevard where every sandwich is a work of art. And he had, you know, a lot of stories about his family because I just asked him, tell me about yourself, where you come from? And he just said, I got twin boys and an older daughter. My family lives close by and they're always bothering me. My brother is older and he's a police sergeant and he lives with them. He's divorced, he's jealous of me. He saw an award that I won for Stand up and he said, never ends for Raymond, Everybody Loves Raymond. And I said, well, it doesn't seem like there's anything there we can use. No, but I thought that's a good place to start. I didn't know if he could act even. Yeah, right. He wasn't an actor.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

So make him close to himself. And I saw this as a vehicle for all the stuff I wanted to do.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Family. What I didn't know about those characters, I'm putting in my characters. There's a lot of my parents in those parents.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

There's a lot of my wife in that wife. There's a lot of me in Raymond.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And the situations. And I write this pilot and I use a real thing in my life that I gave my parents Fruit of the Month Club and they acted as if I sent them a box of heads from a murderer. Why did you do this to us? There's so much fruit. I can't talk anymore. There's too much fruit in the house. So I put that in the show. That's the scene they tell me that got us on the air. Why? Because it was very specific and I learned a great lesson. I thought you would laugh at that because you'd go, oh, look how crazy Ray's parents are in that scene. No, your parents are crazy, too. You related to it. And the lesson is, the more specific you get.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Not just in writing, but in everything in life. The more specific you get in your cooking.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

The more universal it becomes, the more people you hit. Because we all deal in specificities. So even if there's a crazy thing about you that is not something I do, I'm going to relate to it because I do a crazy thing, too.

[Simon Sinek]

Oh, this is so good. Because we try and make things general to have mass appeal, but it always fails. Always fails. Because it ends up appealing. Or people can find no relevance of themselves. It's weak.

[Phil Rosenthal]

It's weak.

[Simon Sinek]

But if you. And it's. You know what it is? There's an irony in this, which is the specific. When. The more specific you are.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

The more specific you are. It's kind of like people who are bad listeners.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

Right. Or fortune tellers, if you're into that. Right.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

People who are bad listeners.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Who are.

[Simon Sinek]

Which is. You're on a date and somebody says, oh, my parents sent me this Fruit of the Month Club, and it's driving me crazy.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

And you'd be like, oh, your parents. My parents sent me that. And it's. You're talk. You're competing in specific stories.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Exactly. But you're relating.

[Simon Sinek]

But you're relating because the feeling that comes from the story is the same.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Is the same.

[Simon Sinek]

And so the specificity is a Trojan horse that allows Somebody to find their specificity. But what is general is. And relatable are the feelings that go along with the stories.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Exactly.

[Simon Sinek]

But to your point, the more specific the story. The specific is the story.

[Phil Rosenthal]

So that's fried chicken. That fried chicken.

[Simon Sinek]

That is genius.

[Phil Rosenthal]

That is delicious in a specific way. Not in a general, bland way. In a very specific way.

[Simon Sinek]

And one of the things we haven't done is talked about the specificity of why we like the chicken liver, which is there's nostalgia.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Number one.

[Simon Sinek]

Chicken liver is a nostalgic thing.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And then it's specifically this guy's treatment of it with the red wine, the chives on top, the beautiful bread, the beautiful sauteed onions underneath. Make it delicious in a way that it makes.

[Simon Sinek]

It makes it a more. As if you can't make chicken liver mousse richer. He made it richer.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Absolutely. Well, that's a French influence, and we. We appreciate it.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, you can't.

[Phil Rosenthal]

It's hard to argue. That's the best chicken liver I ever had.

[Simon Sinek]

My mother's is good. My mother. My mother's an amazing cook. We were. We were spoiled as kids. You're like, I was not. We were spoiled. My mother was such an amazing cook, and she would experiment sometimes. Oh, I know what's coming now. Okay. I, I.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You're killing me.

[Simon Sinek]

I invited Ryan Bartlett, the founder of our sponsor, True Classic, to sit down for a conversation. We call this an ad with authenticity. One of the things I like about you and your company, which I think most people don't know, is how generous you guys are. You don't advertise your giving. It's not a thing you do for stunts or public relations. You are generous because you want to do good. I know this because my family, we volunteer for an organization, and we show up and there's a bunch of True Classic T shirts being given out to the homeless. You just send them six pallets of T shirts. There's no virtue signaling about, look how nice we are. And you should be nice too, and, you know, buy one from us and we'll give one away. And it's. You just quietly get it done. And it's one of the most attractive things about you as an entrepreneur and as a human being.

[Ryan Bartlett]

Thank you. I appreciate that. For a long time, I never wanted to talk about any of it, because to me, it felt gross to put it out there to the world. And it always felt very fake when I would see businesses just kind of checking the box of, this is our mission, and we help the ocean and the end. I don't want to be that. I want to be the people that show up on demand for people. If there's a crisis, I want to be the one that they call and say, hey, we lost everything. Can you help us out?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Of course.

[Ryan Bartlett]

That's exactly what we're here to do. Not just some arbitrary organization that we're going to donate to. I want to make true impact for people right when they need it. There was a tornado last year in Nebraska. We sent a bunch of stuff, like, just always things that are popping up, I'm jumping on them, and I'm making sure the team reacts to them, too. If they hear something or overhear a customer lost everything, we're going way overboard for them. We're sending them stuff that isn't even T shirts. Sometimes we're just sending them things that they need. It's so magical for them that a company is thinking that far for them.

[Simon Sinek]

This I'm very excited about. This is the only one we've given plates.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Wow.

[Simon Sinek]

So my mother's an amazing cook. And I remember, like, we were so spoiled. The food was so good.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

We didn't know that as kids. We just dinner, and then we'd go to friends houses and we'd be like, this is your dinner. Like. Like, just like this is. Oh. And then we start to realize, like, mom's a great cook.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Oh, we're lucky.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

It's like my parents had a marriage that was far from perfect. Holy crap. This is a Basque cheesecake. It is one of our. One of the places we go in season eight is San Sebastian and the Basque country.

[Simon Sinek]

You've done it already? You went there already?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah. Have you been there?

[Simon Sinek]

I have never.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Oh, well, if you like this little treat, I think you're gonna love going.

[Simon Sinek]

This is a great story.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

This is the Basque cheesecake from Pajo Lee in Santa Monica.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Oh, boy. Yes. I've been there, but I haven't had their best.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, so I'm going to tell you now. I'm going to tell you the story behind.

[Phil Rosenthal]

That's beautiful.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay. So my friend Will Guidera.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

I think you know he was the former owner of eleven Madison Park.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Oh, absolutely.

[Simon Sinek]

So Will's a foodie, right? Yes, to say the least.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Will and I are having dinner, and he says we're doing bang bang tonight.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Two dinners.

[Simon Sinek]

So bang bang is we had appetizers in one restaurant, main course in another restaurant, dessert in another restaurant.

[Phil Rosenthal]

That's bang, bang, bang.

[Simon Sinek]

That's bang bang bang. So we. We Moved. And by the way, the main course was wovo just that night.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Nice.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, so we're sitting at wovo, and he says, I know where we're going for dessert. We're going to Pajoli.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Great.

[Simon Sinek]

They have this Basque cheesecake, and wait, happens. Two chefs went on vacation to the Basque region.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

And they tried this Basque cheesecake, and they competed just for. As a friendly bet, as chefs do, just for fun, who could figure out.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes, good.

[Simon Sinek]

That recipe.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Great.

[Simon Sinek]

So the guy who owns the French restaurant figured it out.

[Phil Rosenthal]

He.

[Simon Sinek]

He won the little friendly contest.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

So he's figured out the recipe for this amazing cheesecake. The problem is he has a French restaurant. There is literally nothing in that restaurant that is not French. He cannot serve a Spanish dessert in a French restaurant. So what he does is every night, they made one cheesecake, and if the staff liked you, they gave you a slice. You couldn't order it. You couldn't. They didn't charge you for it. And if you saw somebody get in, be like, can I have a slice? They go, no.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Oh.

[Simon Sinek]

So because Will's in the restaurant business, he says to me, this is one of the top five desserts I've had in my life. He says to me, and because he's in the restaurant business, he calls up his friend who owns the restaurant and says, do you have any cheesecake left? He says, we have one slice left. Will says, hold it for us. We show up, we drink way too much, Whatever it's called. Chartreuse.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

And they. They. It was a lot. And then we eat the cheesecake.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

It's one of the top five desserts I've ever had in my life.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And it's here.

[Simon Sinek]

And here it is.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Oh, man.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, so there's only one more funny story to share. So you remember, you can't buy it, you can't order it, you can't get it. So I. I'm on a date, and I say to the girl, I got a surprise for you.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And I take her to Pasuli, and we sit at the counter, and I sort of lean into the. To the waiter and sort of put my hand up as if I'm sort of like, I've got. I was like, hey, is the chef here? He goes, no, he's not here today. And I'm sort of, like, trying to make. Is like, maybe. Maybe he knows who I am. Like, maybe we can do this. And I say, any chance you can get a slice of cheesecake, please? He goes, I think we can do that. And I'm thinking, I'm in. I'm in. And he brings us a slice of cheesecake, and it's the most amazing thing. And I've got brownie points because this girl's like, this guy can get cheesecake, and then he says, would you like anything else? And I hold up the menu, and it says, cheesecake. Best cheesecake on the menu. So all I did was surreptitiously order something that's on the menu.

[Phil Rosenthal]

They put it on the menu.

[Simon Sinek]

They put it on the menu. And I didn't know that they put it on the menu, and it turns.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Out, wow, this guy can really order from the menu.

[Simon Sinek]

Exactly. So the point is, anybody can go to Paju and have this cheesecake.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Excellent, Excellent.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay. How big a slice do you gotta?

[Phil Rosenthal]

It's gotta be small.

[Simon Sinek]

Got to eat those slice. So the last thing we have.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Please make it small. That's good.

[Simon Sinek]

Good.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, this is the freaking.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Oh, this is the. Is.

[Simon Sinek]

Wait, hold on, hold on. Got to get the middle bit.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Oh, man.

[Simon Sinek]

This is. This cheesecake. Okay, so for those who aren't looking, it is a gooey, creamy, drippy, creamy cheesecake with a top like old bass. Cheesecake is burnt.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yep.

[Simon Sinek]

Seared the top of the cheesecake.

[Phil Rosenthal]

All right.

[Simon Sinek]

So excited. Didn't overeat the rest of the meal. So I have.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Thank you for this.

[Simon Sinek]

Oh, this is. I'm so glad I found something you didn't know, because everything else. You own the restaurants.

[Phil Rosenthal]

No. This is awesome.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, you ready? Here we go.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Here we go.

[Simon Sinek]

And we go.

[Phil Rosenthal]

That doesn't get better than that.

[Simon Sinek]

Top five desserts of all time, right?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah. Unbelievable.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I mean, holy cow.

[Simon Sinek]

I don't think there's any conversation we can have right now.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I'm so glad I came. Oh, this could solve wars.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah. This is something very specific that everybody can relate to.

[Phil Rosenthal]

It's the great. It's the great. Unless you're lactose intolerant or you can't.

[Simon Sinek]

Eat sugar or if you're lactose intolerant.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Take a pill.

[Simon Sinek]

Take a pill.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Take a lactate.

[Simon Sinek]

Take a lactate for this one. It's worth it. Or just suffer. Suffer indigestion.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah, it's worth it. Food, I always say, is the great connector. We all got to eat. First of all, everybody on the planet eats. But if you and I never met, we sit down and we have something amazing like this. First of all, we're happy because it's so delicious. Next, we're talking and we're in a better mood because the food was delicious. And we might share a smile or a laugh. So I always say, food is the great connector. And then laughs of the cement. And so now we had a nice lunch, and it was so nice. What's going to happen? We want to eat again.

[Simon Sinek]

We definitely want to eat again.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Right? So that's how friends are made. That's how. That's how romance begins. They call date for a reason. Right? You go on a date, where are you going? You're probably going to the movies, but you're going to eat because that's where you get to know the person.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Over a pleasurable experience.

[Simon Sinek]

Did you have a happy family, happy childhood?

[Phil Rosenthal]

I have to say, in retrospect, just like you were saying, you don't know what you have. You go to someone's house. I can't believe the food is so terrible. I must have great food at my house. No, we had. We didn't have lousy food. And a lot of the time my family was yelling at each other, but we were. When we weren't yelling, we were laughing. My dad was very funny, and my mother also was funny.

[Simon Sinek]

Did your dad know he was funny?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes, he actually told jokes.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay.

[Phil Rosenthal]

He actually. The way my parents met was my mom was on a date with a fella, and she went to a nightclub in New Jersey on amateur night, and they listened to musicians. And then this young, skinny tailor from the garment district gets up and tells old Jewish jokes that she thought was hysterical. And she said, that guy, I think I like that guy better than this guy I'm on the date with. And I always say, if my dad was not funny that night. Right. I'm not here. So I owe everything, my life to Max's sense of humor and my mom's sense of humor for appreciating his sense of humor. It's our most underrated value as human beings. Sense of humor.

[Simon Sinek]

Is everybody funny?

[Phil Rosenthal]

No. Some people, sadly, are born without a great sense of humor, but I think it's who we're attracted to as friends. You don't have to have my exact sense of humor. You just have to appreciate mine. And I have to appreciate yourself.

[Simon Sinek]

You don't have to be the joke teller, but you can be the laugher.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes. That's your partner equation.

[Simon Sinek]

A good team, I find, has, like, on my team, for example, a lot of people who are, like, brilliant idea generators.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

And they're terrible at execution. But I've got people who are fantastic, fantastic executors, but they're not the big idea generators.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Not everybody has to have the same skill. If they did, you wouldn't need them.

[Simon Sinek]

You need the friend who loves your jokes.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Absolutely.

[Simon Sinek]

And that's what makes it work, because you encourage each other. You encourage each other.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes, but I tend to. I tend to be attracted to people who are, I think, way funnier than me in different ways. Right. Like that's the writer's room. Have you ever been in a writer's room?

[Simon Sinek]

I've always wanted to.

[Phil Rosenthal]

It's probably heaven on earth if you like to laugh. You're literally getting paid to laugh. And then the only sunshine coming in this room is the menu for lunch. And then you get to order whatever you want from wherever you want. This is at the peak of television. This may be gone now.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Phil Rosenthal]

This. This life right.

[Simon Sinek]

In our virtual world now.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Exactly. And. And the end of entertainment as we know it.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Right. Where kids can make their own movies on the phone by speaking into it and saying, make me the. I want to be outer space and do my own version of Star wars. And I want to be the hero and I like the girl down the street and make her the girl that I get and make my friend over here the villain. And he pushes a button and then this is. Soon this will happen. And then AI creates a movie that not only he can show on a giant screen, but he can hit a button and distribute it worldwide. Why does he need a studio? Why does he need an agent? Why does he need a movie theater? Why does he need.

[Simon Sinek]

Doesn't. Does that bother you?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Of course. Because the art is gone then.

[Simon Sinek]

But here's the thing. I don't think so. My. Where I'm coming out on AI especially when it comes to creativity.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

I think what technology does is it reorganizes the focus. Right. So, for example, we were an album culture.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

We listened to eight tracks and records and CDs and tapes. We're an album culture.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

Until the MP3 player showed up. And now we're a song and playlist culture. Right. So the technology changed our preferences and our taste changed our area of focus.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And who did that? Screw the artist.

[Simon Sinek]

Screwed some artists gave life to new.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Artists, but not the life that, you know, Beyonce has to tour because the album isn't going to make her the money that. So that she can make on tour.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay. We're going to go down this rabbit hole. Okay. All it did. So it changed the business model.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

And so we. We can't whine that technology has changed the business model. That's like publishing whining that there's an Internet. You know, remember it's Netflix that pioneered streaming, not the television and movie industry. And it's Amazon that invented the E Reader and not the publishing industry.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You're right.

[Simon Sinek]

And it's Apple, a computer company that invented itunes and not the music industry. It's because they're all clinging to the past and missing that. Technology changes our lives. And you can change with it, or you can go kicking and screaming, or you can go out of business. Those are the three options.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I have nothing against the technology. It's the fairness.

[Simon Sinek]

Fairness. I mean, the business models change and so Beyonce may have been able to make tons of her money from selling her albums and then the MP3 and the Spotify's. I get it, I get it.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Unfair. Took it away, changed the business model. But I guarantee you that Beyonce makes more money on her tours than anybody with a couple of songs who had a one hit wonder through an MP3. The business model changed and now the better the tours.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Correct me if I'm wrong though. AI is an amalgam of everything that AI takes from.

[Simon Sinek]

Correct. It's derivative.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Human.

[Simon Sinek]

It is actually derivative.

[Phil Rosenthal]

So it's a lot like stealing.

[Simon Sinek]

It's derivative.

[Phil Rosenthal]

How is it not like stealing? If a movie studio, I don't know how this writes, Writes a script using.

[Simon Sinek]

AI, this is destroyed IP law. I mean, let's start, start there. Like the whole IP law probably needs to be rewritten.

[Phil Rosenthal]

But if, if a movie studio.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Writes a movie script using AI which has stolen plot lines, lines of dialogue from human beings.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

That studio owns that movie, don't they?

[Simon Sinek]

I don't know the answer to that. Like I said, I think this is uncharted territory. However, what I think is more likely to happen is that a studio will take what it owns.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And feed it into the system. All the movies, they don't do that. Or, or, or let's, or let's say.

[Phil Rosenthal]

They just take, take, take, take from everybody.

[Simon Sinek]

But I'm saying what from. If we're going to talk legal, like where there's no legal problems is let's, let's say Amazon that now owns James Bond.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Puts all the James Bond movies in.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

And says make another James Bond movie for us based on all the previous James Bond movies.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

They own all the IP anyway. And they own the new IP that's sped out for the old ip.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Pretty sure they're not going to stick to that rule.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, that's the problem. I mean, that's a different. But like for example, like you can ask AI to write something in the style of me.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

And it'll go on about why and purpose and all of this stuff.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Which is a 15 year old book. Yeah. It's.

[Phil Rosenthal]

It's mostly terrible now.

[Simon Sinek]

It doesn't know what it's. I'm going to write.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes. But it's mostly terrible now. But you could see in a few years it not being terrible.

[Simon Sinek]

It's not terrible. Some of it's amazing. But as an artist myself, I think what people miss is that we're all so result oriented. We want the product. Give me the movie, give me the screenplay, give me this. That they forget that what makes you you is writing nine fricking seasons of Raymond. And you are a better writer now than you were from season one. You're more nuanced, you're. You understand dialogue better, you understand conflict better. There's no learning. If AI does all the work for you, you might produce a good product. But you go through life learning nothing, growing nowhere. And you'll have a class of artists that will be the same entry level human being after 15 year career as they were after a one year career. And I think it's the wisdom that we're forgetting it's this very human thing that computers can't give us, which is, it's the, it's what makes me a better thinker, problem solver, better viewer of life. Pattern connector is not because of my, my.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Because you googled the answer.

[Simon Sinek]

It's not because I googled the answer. Right. It's because I struggled to write my own book.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Exactly.

[Simon Sinek]

And that's what made me better at what I do. And my last book is a much more mature and better piece of literature than my first book.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

First book's a nice idea, but it's. I wouldn't say it's well written, but.

[Phil Rosenthal]

The computer is gonna get better at that and it's going to learn the way you learned over time.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And then replace you. You're not afraid of this future.

[Simon Sinek]

I think it's.

[Phil Rosenthal]

We believe maybe naively, that we will always have some value as people.

[Simon Sinek]

I remember when the Internet popped up and there were same, the same things like the death, the death of bricks and mortar stores. There would be no such thing as a store anymore because we're going to do all our shopping on the Internet. And what we forgot is people like shopping.

[Phil Rosenthal]

They do. But some of that came true.

[Simon Sinek]

Some of it came. But some of it came true because of Amazon's pricing model and Amazon's ability to make it impossible to build. But again, but it's business model, right?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

At the end of the day, we still enjoy going to stores and that. I hear you, but I don't think it's because the Internet. It's because of the pricing that Amazon can offer.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I think it's a little of both. Because when I can sit in my bed and order something and it comes by the end of the day, that's the problem.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, remember when the early Internet shopping, it came like two weeks and so like convenient was going to the store.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Of course. But now that you can get your.

[Simon Sinek]

Groceries in the same day, in the.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Same hour, and even other stuff, it is crazy.

[Simon Sinek]

Well, I think we can agree on one thing.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

We don't know what's gonna happen. We're probably all doomed. And so.

[Phil Rosenthal]

So enjoy the moment.

[Simon Sinek]

So enjoy the moment. Surround yourself with the show you want.

[Phil Rosenthal]

To do, because in the end, they're gonna cancel you anyway.

[Simon Sinek]

And there's.

[Phil Rosenthal]

That's today's little lesson.

[Simon Sinek]

There's a little bow. I don't even have to summarize.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And be specific.

[Simon Sinek]

Do the show you want to do because they're gonna cancel you anyway. And everything you talk about, be specific.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I think so. Like, you, just like you said, all the knowledge that you accumulated through struggle and hard work made you specifically you. There is no other you. And that applies to everyone.

[Simon Sinek]

And I think so. That's a great question, which is, do we come? Do we become more specifically us? Yes, over time, of course. So are you less specifically you when you're younger?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

As a 21 year old. More generic than a 50 year old.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Because you didn't live long enough yet to.

[Simon Sinek]

There's not enough specifics.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah. You need the wrinkles.

[Simon Sinek]

Got it.

[Phil Rosenthal]

The little wrinkles.

[Simon Sinek]

More wrinkles you have is the amount of specific experiences you have that made you you.

[Phil Rosenthal]

That's right. The wrinkles are earned.

[Simon Sinek]

Wrinkles are earned. The specifics are earned. I really like this. It's a great philosophy for life. I thought we were just going to talk about food.

[Phil Rosenthal]

That's a big part of it. And it's a great metaphor for a lot of things in life.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah. I have a couple extra questions. Can be. Yeah. I don't understand people.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I think chefs are great writers.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You write a recipe, you put ideas together that maybe haven't been together before. Roy Choi, for example, you know, he is.

[Simon Sinek]

I don't.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Roy Choi created the Kogi truck. You know what that is? I don't it changed the world. Why? Because here's a Korean American who, growing up in la, loves Mexican food and culture. He takes Korean barbecue and he puts it in a tortilla. It makes a Korean like a bull.

[Simon Sinek]

Barbecue, tortilla, taco. Wow.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Then he takes a truck and paints it with the word Kogi on it. And as the Internet is coming and people are writing now on the Internet, the Kogi truck is at Ventura and this come there and crowds start coming. Now people go, wait a minute. Food trucks used to be just be for construction sites. Now they're cultural phenomenons. The reason you see food trucks everywhere on earth is because this guy.

[Simon Sinek]

Brilliant.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Put Korean barbecue in a taco.

[Simon Sinek]

He's the OG Roy Choi. Wow. That's.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You should have him on because that's a great story and real entrepreneurship and.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And a work of art that. That took. Took over the world. We love a food truck. We love it because it's handy. It. Everyone is different. You can travel by going to a collection of food trucks which, you know, a place like Austin will. Will take an old parking lot and put a ring of food trucks around it that's been curated. We have a Mexican one, we have a barbecue one, we have an Indian one. We have this. And you have a food festival.

[Simon Sinek]

So why shouldn't chefs be afraid of AI?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Why shouldn't.

[Simon Sinek]

You said that writers are under threat, musicians are under threat, painters are under threat. Or because this AI can do what they do, so why not the chef. You said they're writers.

[Phil Rosenthal]

They.

[Simon Sinek]

They write these recipes. So why not the AI give me a recipe for this kind of dish with these kinds of ingredients.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Because the computerized restaurant could take their job away. If the truck can drive itself and the food can cook itself and serve itself to you, they're out of business.

[Simon Sinek]

I don't think it'll ever happen.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I hope not.

[Simon Sinek]

But I'll tell you for a very simple reason.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

I want somebody to smile with me.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Of course.

[Simon Sinek]

There's a cookie place in New York City that I went to. Everything's stark white and very futuristic. And it looks like some Woody Allen movie, you know. And you go in and there's a screen. You go bleep, bleep, bleep. And you say what kind of cookie you want? This person in the back gets the order on a screen and they prepare the cookie and they put in a bag and then some. Then just somebody hands don't. I think they haven't you. They just put it on the counter with your name on it. And the people. I was looking in the back, and the people in the back look so unhappy in a job. And it's not the job. It's not the mean.

[Phil Rosenthal]

There's no social connection.

[Simon Sinek]

It's not the mundaneness of making a cookie and put it in a bag.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

It's what makes my job fun, is I want to talk to you and say hi and smile and say thank you and say please. Like, stupid little shit.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And so, you know, pretty girl might come in.

[Simon Sinek]

Pretty girl may come in. But I think what will happen is people will demand it, and I think the companies will always offer what the market demands. And so companies might be looking for all this way to eliminate people, eliminate this little. That. Until the one person who starts the food truck who says, you know what? We're making our own food so that you can see who makes it and will smile at you and hand it to you, because you'll know that I made it with love. And that's the one that's going to have the liner on the block, and all the other AI trucks are going to put people in it, because that's what the market demands.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Unless one thing go, that's the best cookie ever had in your life. No.

[Simon Sinek]

I don't even think.

[Phil Rosenthal]

If a machine made that bass cheesecake right now. Right. That we just had.

[Simon Sinek]

All right, all right, you win.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You'd still love that cheesecake, right?

[Simon Sinek]

I love the story that goes with the cheesecake. I've got the story, Chef.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I always say the story makes it taste better. I really believe that. And if Grandma smiles at me while she's giving me her, you know, beautiful pasta in Italy, I'm in love with the whole thing. I'll go this far. I asked Thomas Keller because I have a podcast, too. You'll come on mine, please. It's called Naked Lunch, and we eat every time.

[Simon Sinek]

I only eat with you.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Thomas Keller came and did that, and I said, you have advice for me for the diner? And you know what he said? The number one thing. What do you think it was?

[Simon Sinek]

What?

[Phil Rosenthal]

What do you want to guess?

[Simon Sinek]

Great staff.

[Phil Rosenthal]

That's it. Service.

[Simon Sinek]

Service.

[Phil Rosenthal]

That's everything.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Especially for a diner. You want a warm, cozy hug of a place, the food has to be.

[Simon Sinek]

Good or bad service. Bad service can ruin good food.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Of course it can.

[Simon Sinek]

And great service enhances mediocre food.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And you.

[Simon Sinek]

And if you've got both, you're a winner.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And if you fall in love with the people in the place, you're a customer. You're coming Back.

[Simon Sinek]

You're coming back.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Right. We all want to be accepted.

[Simon Sinek]

And that's why I think we're safe from AI taking over the world, is because fundamentally, people want human beings. They want to feel loved, they want to feel held. They want to look somebody the eye. You know what everybody wants?

[Phil Rosenthal]

A hug. Absolutely.

[Simon Sinek]

A metaphorical hug of good service or a literal hug. You know as well as I just. Out in the show, you know as well as I do that if your staff is amazing and a customer comes in, they will hug the staff. The regulars will get hugs, because that's how people are.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes, yes, yes. It's vital. AI will never take that away. But they could take away a lot.

[Simon Sinek]

So you kind of. I think. Yes. But I think, again, it goes back to the Beyonce challenge, which is. The enterprising ones will figure it out. Will figure it out. The enterprising ones will be able to put their finger on the zeitgeist and say, you know what? I can't make money on an album anymore, but the album is my marketing tool for my tour.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

I'm going to do the best tours of anybody, the best concerts of anybody. And instead of slaving away trying to market my album.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

I'm going to slave away making the best tour I can make.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

And I think it just changes the energy and it changes the model. And so because we're in a period of flux right now, the people with the old business models that can't imagine new business models are the ones screaming the death of everything. Right. For good reason. That's gonna be young people or really enterprising, experienced people, but young people who are not encumbered by the old business models will be the ones figuring out the new model.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Listen, it's always been.

[Simon Sinek]

Or the truck.

[Phil Rosenthal]

A small set of people who make the most out of the business. There's only one Tom Hanks. Right. There's only. There's a very few giant movie stars and the kid that I described who talks into his phone and pushes a button and a movie comes out.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

The kid who's best at that will be the new Tom Hanks.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah. I was walking down Hollywood Boulevard.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And I'm looking at all the stars of all the famous people.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

And I didn't know most of them because everybody gets forgotten. And so.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Thanks, Simon. This is so uplifting.

[Simon Sinek]

I guarantee you my. My niece doesn't know who Arnold Schwarzenegger is. You know, I'm pretty confident my niece doesn't know who Ray Romano is. And it's no disrespect to anything you or Ray did. It's just like time goes forward, which is why you're doing new things.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You have to do new things.

[Simon Sinek]

You're like the Larry David of the Ray Romano show, which is, I guess, the guy in the background.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes. Except my show now is.

[Simon Sinek]

You didn't.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Why? Why? Curb your enthusiasm.

[Simon Sinek]

But why curb your enthusiasm. Don't curb your enthusiasm.

[Phil Rosenthal]

That's right.

[Simon Sinek]

Was there ever a temptation like Larry.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

To make a show of you.

[Phil Rosenthal]

This is it. This is my version. I've used him as an example. I am the guy who was behind the scenes, and now I'm in the front of the scenes. But this is my personality. Specifically me.

[Simon Sinek]

Larry has said.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

That his show is an exaggerated version of him.

[Phil Rosenthal]

It's not. I've done his show twice. I know him. He might be a little nicer on the show. He's not a people person.

[Simon Sinek]

No, no.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And I love him. He is uniquely and specifically him. And there's. There is a great need for him in the world. There's nobody funnier.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Every line out of his mouth is an episode of Curb youb Enthusiasm. The first time I met him, Yeah. I said, hey, it's great to meet you. I was at a party.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Great to meet you. He doesn't say hello. He says, you think it's all right to throw gum in the fireplace?

[Simon Sinek]

He just says what's on his mind.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You exist for him to talk to.

[Simon Sinek]

The world is merely a fishbowl for him.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Here's a face I can ask. Let me get your opinion. Let me test this theory. Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

All right. I'm gonna. I have a couple questions here for you. You created Everybody Loves Raymond and Somebody feed Phil. It's always got some name in it to give to that. Do something with Raymond. Do something Phil. Yeah. So what would you name my show if it's not the optimism. A little bit of optimism. It's a bit of. That's the name of our show. It's a bit of optimism.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Somebody talk to Simon.

[Simon Sinek]

It's so lonely.

[Phil Rosenthal]

By the way, somebody feed Phil. The reason I love that title and chose that title is because it denotes someone who can't take care of himself. So right away, it's specific character. That's me. I can't cook. Somebody better feed Phil because otherwise Phil will die. And I have my brother who produces the show with me. And so he runs the show while I'm the monkey in the middle. And he pushes me out of my comfort Zone because he thinks that'll be entertaining for people. I fight him every step of the way. And every time I do the thing that I did not want to do it was worth doing. Like jumping in the cold water off the Irish coast.

[Simon Sinek]

That sounds awful.

[Phil Rosenthal]

It is awful. But I'm glad I did it, because I lived and I did it. I jumped into the ocean with these maniacs who do it every morning. Yeah, And I did it. It's in the show. It's in the Dublin episode, if you want to see it. And I didn't do it at first. They invited me. I said, no, I'll be here on the side with hot chocolate when you get out. Because I saw they were all freezing. They jumped in the sea off the Irish coast. Big crazy people every day, no matter the weather. But then I fall in love with the people over the course of the day. They're charming. It's like a town full of puppies. The nicest people in the world, okay? And I leave them. I hug them. I have tears in my eyes because they were so special. Go back to my hotel, and I'm thinking, and I'm thinking, I can't let go of these people and how great they are. And I call my brother. He's in his hotel. I said, I got good news and bad news. He goes, what? I go, I think I know how to end this episode. Which I never think of beforehand. It's made in the editing. We put it together and we see the theme develop, and that's the show. We get what we get, and then we construct something out of that, right? He said, what's the bad news? I got to go back and jump in that water because I'm feeling like they have something to teach me. And I love them and I have to walk the walk, you know? I can't just say, try new things. I have to be willing to do that. Otherwise, why do I have a show? And he says, great. He wants me to jump. And we go back. And now it's getting dark and it's raining, so it's colder than it was in the morning. And I strip off and I jump in that thing. And I'm telling you, it was crazy cold. Like, I scream, you see it in the thing? Lasted maybe 30 seconds. I get out, shivering, you know, drying myself off. I'm happy. Why? Because I lived. I did it. And you're going to think I'm making this up. That was six years ago. Every single day since then, I take a shower in the morning and at the end of the shower. I put it on cold for 30 seconds. And it brings me right back there.

[Simon Sinek]

Wow.

[Phil Rosenthal]

It also is very good for you, apparently.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Phil Rosenthal]

The cold plunge, they call it. Right. So I do it with the shower. 30 seconds. I built myself up from 10 seconds.

[Simon Sinek]

No kidding.

[Phil Rosenthal]

30 seconds. And you can do it. And I'll tell you one thing. You forget all your troubles, number one. Number two, it's invigorating. And you feel now I'm ready for the day. It's almost like I'm thinking about all this crap and now I have a clean slate. And now I'm ready. Here I go. That can happen because you took that baby step out of your comfort zone and changed your life. That changes my life.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah. You are wonderful. You are the personification of joie de vivre.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I am love.

[Simon Sinek]

You love life.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Because I feel very, very lucky. I know not everybody gets to live their dream, and I'm not discounting that. I had to work hard to get it. But I know how lucky I am and that informs everything I do. So when you start with that plateau of gratitude. Right. Baseline.

[Simon Sinek]

But I think. But that there's a difference there. And you just said it.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

The plateau of gratitude is not the plateau of luck. You said I'm lucky. You're not. You're grateful. There's a difference. Lucky is winning a lottery.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I did, right? I did.

[Simon Sinek]

You did. You did. Yes. Okay.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You have to be lucky.

[Simon Sinek]

I agree.

[Phil Rosenthal]

And once you are lucky enough to be lucky, and I'm not, be grateful for that.

[Simon Sinek]

And I'm not making the case. Oh, you worked hard for it. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying what I think. There's something to be when somebody has something that others don't get to have. I don't think we want to think of you as lucky, but we want to know that if you have something that I either want or crave or look up to, that you appreciate it. I just want to know that you appreciate it. I feel lucky. Don't get me wrong. I feel lucky for everything that I've had. And I know luck played a huge part and timing played a huge part. You know, I am aware of that. All of that said.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

I have gratitude.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

And I think when I hear of others who call themselves lucky, I. Maybe I'm just speaking for myself.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

I. I just want to hear them say, I'm grateful and I'm good.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I think you.

[Simon Sinek]

Does that make sense?

[Phil Rosenthal]

Absolutely. And you.

[Simon Sinek]

Because you just said it a Platform of gratitude.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Plateau of gratitude.

[Simon Sinek]

The basis is you have to have a plate of gratitude in the morning.

[Phil Rosenthal]

I'm already grateful.

[Simon Sinek]

I'm already a winner. I'm a winner.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Look, I got my wife next to me for 35 years. I got the dog at the front. I won already. What happens today?

[Simon Sinek]

Every part of the day is. Every part of the day after that moment is the lucky.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

You start with grateful. And lucky is upon grateful and we.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Appreciate what we have. And then once you've have that, now what? How about giving a little back?

[Simon Sinek]

Agree.

[Phil Rosenthal]

How about sharing it with the people? It's only good if you can share.

[Simon Sinek]

Life is more fun when you get to share it with others.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Exactly.

[Simon Sinek]

I keep trying to end this because there's a clock that says you got to end, but I just keep enjoying talking to you.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Thank you. Well, we're not dead yet. We'll. We'll talk some more.

[Simon Sinek]

I would love that.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Eat some more.

[Simon Sinek]

Oh, this was. Thanks for sharing food with me.

[Phil Rosenthal]

Thanks.

[Simon Sinek]

You're a joy.

[Phil Rosenthal]

You're a joy.

[Simon Sinek]

Just a lot of joy. Gratitude and joy. A bit of optimism is brought to you by the Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team, Lindsey Garbinius, David Jha and Devin Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smart smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more. And if you are trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help. Simply go to simonsinek. Com. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.