What Happens When You Stop Optimizing and Start Committing with Former LA Lakers President Tim Harris

Summary

Podcast Summary: A Bit of Optimism

Episode: What Happens When You Stop Optimizing and Start Committing

Host: Simon Sinek
Guest: Tim Harris (Former LA Lakers President)
Release Date: June 2, 2026

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Overview

This episode features Simon Sinek in conversation with Tim Harris, who spent over 35 years rising through the ranks of the Los Angeles Lakers, ultimately serving as President of Business Operations. The discussion revolves around themes of leadership, commitment, culture, and human-centered business practices. Drawing on stories from both sports and business, Tim and Simon explore what sets great teams, leaders, and organizations apart, especially in a world where career longevity and loyalty are rare.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Commitment vs. Optimization in Careers

• The episode begins with a reflection on career trajectories, highlighting the rarity of long tenures at a single company in today’s world.
  • "It's a rare thing for people to have one job for such a long time. I don't think you see it very often." – Tim (02:53)
  • Discussion of the "gold watch" era, where lifelong loyalty was often reciprocated by companies, versus the current environment of frequent change and optimization for flexibility. Simon notes the loss of a sense of safety and long-term focus that characterized past business philosophies. (03:42 – 04:23)

2. Tim’s Accidental Journey from Player to Executive

• Tim describes his transition from aspiring professional soccer player to business leader at the Forum, and ultimately to the Lakers, after impressing ownership with his business curiosity. (05:03 – 07:30)
• On the importance of curiosity and seizing unexpected opportunities.

3. Leadership Lessons from Sport: Roles, Coaching, and Teamwork

• Tim credits his coaching and athletic background for shaping his management style.
  • "Coaching is a form of leadership...they translate so well from team sports to business and how you motivate employees." – Tim (07:54)
• The parallel between sports and business: clarity of roles, trust, and not micromanaging are foundational for success.
  • "A good coach gives their players authority to go with the responsibility." – Tim (09:03)
• Simon highlights that the most legendary coaches aren’t obsessed with “winning” but with team cohesion and growth. (09:09 – 09:50)
• The importance of defining roles and responsibilities to empower individuals and prevent chaos, both on the field and at work. (11:06 – 12:58)

4. Lessons from Elite Athletes: Focus, Compartmentalization, and Joy

• Tim recounts a story about Kobe Bryant, illustrating his ability to compartmentalize and show grit on the court while remaining kind off it. (13:28 – 14:38)
  • Quote: "You can be both. You can be both because you are. This does not mean you cannot be that." – Kobe Bryant, as recounted by Tim (14:37)
• Simon and Tim discuss how the best athletes manage stress by focusing on fundamentals and loving the game, not just on outcomes.
  • "The top echelon have a love for the game...that joy is what separated the most elite athletes from everybody else." – Simon (16:38 – 17:21)
• The difference between stars and everyone else in both sports and business often comes down to intangible qualities—how they handle pressure, focus, build momentum, and seek mastery in the “dark” (offstage). (18:14 – 18:39; 48:51 – 50:01)

5. Human-Centered Leadership—Removing Conditions, Fostering Growth

• Tim reveals a crucial leadership insight: beware of the “as long as” mentality—conditional commitment that undermines teams and trust.
  • "In any endeavor, there are three unspoken words that will ruin any endeavor: 'as long as.'” – Tim (22:17)
• Leaders can support and encourage employees by openly discussing ambitions and creating spaces for them to articulate and pursue growth, thereby reducing conditionality and increasing engagement. (24:24 – 27:03)
• Though this is difficult to scale, it can occur at every management level, rippling through an organization. (26:46 – 27:03)

6. Building Enduring Brands through Micro-Moments of Kindness

• Tim shares powerful stories of giving away premium seats to fans in the rafters and creating the internal “Caught You Being a Laker” program, empowering every employee to be an ambassador for goodwill. (28:20 – 36:41)
  • "The sports industry is a business of memories." – Tim (29:05)
  • "Successful brands are built one tiny little act at a time...they grow the brand." – Tim (31:29)
• These acts build brand evangelism, human connection, and long-term loyalty, even if their impact isn’t always immediately measurable. (32:22 – 33:29)
• Simon recounts extending Tim’s ripple effect by gifting Lakers merchandise to strangers, amplifying positive brand associations. (34:00 – 34:40)

7. Customer Experience: Humanizing Business Operations

• Sports has the advantage of direct, visible customers, but most businesses lose sight of the person behind the purchase.
  • Simon shares a story of Air Canada refusing to rebook his flight for an empty seat, with the agent replying, “Sir, this is a business.” (39:53)
• The lesson: regardless of business model, every transaction is ultimately human-to-human. Leaders must remember and empower their teams to put people first, not just numbers. (40:16 – 42:39)
  • “Business is always human. Even if you're in a B2B space, a human being will make a purchase...at some point, you cannot avoid the human being.” – Simon (40:22)

8. Leadership Evolution: Balancing Accountability and Humanity

• Tim reflects on learning to “meet people where they are” while simultaneously maintaining accountability.
  • “The leader I am now is not always the leader I was. It's an evolutionary thing...meet every person where they are.” – Tim (43:29 – 45:02)
• Simon and Tim discuss the dangers of being too lenient (“hippie commune leadership”), and the importance of “caring structure”—boundaries with compassion.
  • “People crave caring structure. They want boundaries...sometimes you have to hug them with arms wrapped in barbed wire, but you're still hugging them.” – Tim (46:29 – 47:12)
• Accountability, when built on mutual respect and empathy, encourages people to safeguard the environment that enables them to thrive. (47:43 – 48:28)

9. Memories, Legacy, and Patience in Leadership

• Tim emphasizes that the memories he cherishes are not just of championships, but the moments of joy and togetherness—urging colleagues to pause and absorb these instances. (51:07)
  • “Stop...look at the joy they're experiencing—because that's what you're going to take with you.” – Tim (51:07)
• The Lakers’ culture is defined less by winning and more by this sense of community and impact, especially in moments of tragedy.
• Discussion on modern impatience: moving from “investing” to “day trading” in people and coaches, and the harmful churn this causes. (53:39 – 55:12)
  • “Have we lost all patience? We look more like we're day trading than investing.” – Tim (53:41)
• Tim advocates for managing, not just blaming or discarding, leaders and employees—focusing on root problems versus scapegoating individuals. (54:58 – 55:48)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Leadership and Culture:
  • "You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved." – Tim, echoing Phil Jackson (00:16; 50:28; 50:34)
• On Role Clarity:
  • "A good coach gives their players authority to go with the responsibility." – Tim (09:03)
• On Building Brands:
  • "Successful brands are built one tiny little act at a time." – Tim (31:29)
• On Human-Centered Business:
  • "Business is always human." – Simon (40:22)
• On Loving the Journey:
  • "When they win a point, they go, ah, I love this game...that joy is what separated the most elite athletes from everybody else." – Simon (16:38 – 17:21)
• On Accountability and Kindness:
  • "People crave caring structure." – Tim (46:35)
  • "Sometimes you have to hug them with arms wrapped in barbed wire, but you're still hugging them." – Tim (47:12)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:16: The importance of love in leadership & Phil Jackson’s philosophy
• 03:42 – 04:23: The shift from loyalty to constant change in work culture
• 05:03 – 07:30: Tim’s accidental entry into sports business
• 07:54 – 09:03: Coaching as a model for leadership
• 13:28 – 14:38: Kobe Bryant’s lesson on compartmentalization and grit
• 16:38 – 17:21: What separates elite athletes—the joy of the game
• 22:17: The “as long as” pitfall in teamwork
• 28:20 – 29:05: Creating memorable experiences for fans—giving away courtside seats
• 34:00 – 34:40: Ripples of kindness, gifting Lakers merch
• 36:13 – 37:54: “Caught You Being a Laker” employee program
• 39:53 – 40:22: The Air Canada story and humanizing business
• 46:29 – 47:12: The concept of “caring structure” and tough love
• 51:07: Cherishing joyful moments as a team, being present
• 53:41 – 54:43: Loss of patience and the problem of short-term thinking in modern business

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Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is intimate, honest, and deeply human, blending warmth and humor with practical wisdom. Tim Harris models a leadership style rooted in humility, empathy, patience, and accountability. The episode is a masterclass in fostering organizational loyalty, championing culture, and prioritizing the small acts that enable both people and brands to thrive for the long run.

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“You have to love them in order to win. You don’t need to win in order to be loved.”
— Tim Harris (00:16, 50:28)

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Whether you lead a team, aspire to build a lasting brand, or simply want to bring more optimism and humanity to your work, this episode provides inspiration and practical steps—reminding us compelling organizations are built one genuine moment at a time.

Transcript

[A]

When you have these kind of positions like I have with the Lakers, is you're around these, like, amazing human beings. You're around people like Phil Jackson. And here's the one thing that great leaders, great coaches, it's human. First, Phil Jackson, he cared about the human being.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved.

[B]

You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved. That is. That is about as good as it gets. Most of us have had more than one job, probably even more than a few. We pivot, we hustle, we optimize. Why? Because we live in a world where loyalty to one company, quite frankly, has become a relic of the past and flexibility has become a professional necessity. But this need for constant reinvention, it can be lonely, and it's definitely stressful and hard work. So what can we learn from someone who chose to stay in one job and learn to build a culture where others wanted to stay, too? That's why I asked Tim Harris to come on the show. He spent 35 years with the LA Lakers, where he rose to become the president of business operations and where he oversaw one of the most dominant dynasties in NBA history. He was there for Kobe, for LeBron, for championships. And in that time, he learned something that has become increasingly rare. What it takes to build something worth sticking around for. Tim proves that the most powerful brands are built through thousands of small, genuine, human moments. And the leaders who get that do more than lead people. They inspire them to stay. If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe. This is a bit of optimism, No joke. I've been looking forward to this conversation more than anybody else on the roster, and mainly because you are charming, wonderful, and tell amazing stories. And the day I met you, I was like, oh, more of this, please.

[A]

Wow, that's so kind. That is amazing. I need to make sure I send my friendship fees over.

[B]

No, it's 100. True. Let's start from the beginning. I guess you have basically had one job in your life, right? Basically.

[A]

Basically.

[B]

Which was with the LA Lakers for a long time.

[A]

Well, yeah, so I guess technically I started initially at the Forum where the Lakers played, and then I trend. So I was working on the Lakers, more of an emphasis on the building, and then I moved over to the Lakers mid-90s. But essentially same company since 1990. I worked from 90 until two months ago.

[B]

It's a rare thing for people to have one job for such A long. For such a long time.

[A]

I don't think you. It's. It's super rare. I don't think you see it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Very often.

[B]

I mean, it's. It's. It's. It's a bygone era.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's giving.

[B]

Giving your life to a company.

[A]

Well, yeah. It's a throwback to sort of my father. Right. It's a throwback to aerospace. You know, start gold watch, move on.

[B]

Right. Funny you say that. You know, I talk about the gold watch, and there's an entire generation who, when we say the gold watch, they have no idea what we're talking about. And I've tested it. I've said, hey, how many of you know, wow. So we know what the gold watches.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You work for however many decades for one company, and upon your retirement, they give you a gold watch.

[A]

That's what you got.

[B]

That's what you got. That was like, the thing. Yeah. There's an entire generation that has no idea what the gold watch is, what the euphemism is. And the thought of giving your entire life to one company is sort of like, horrendous.

[A]

Doesn't that go back my dad's time? Doesn't that go back be. You did that because then you got your pension.

[B]

I'm sure there were multiple things that went into it. Pensions, obviously, are part of it. I don't think all companies had pensions, but they were definitely more common back then. But I also think that it was a time before mass layoffs and before quarterly earnings and before shareholder supremacy, where everybody was trying to build a good company for the long term and make the best products they could. And the general business philosophies were, we'll take care of our people, our people take care of us. And so there was no reason to bail on a regular basis because you were safe.

[A]

Correct. Correct.

[B]

I'm very curious. I actually don't know this. I know that you played soccer.

[A]

Yes, I did.

[B]

And were you planning on going pro? Is that what your thing, what you wanted to do? Did you want to be an athlete?

[A]

I did, and I. I did and I did. And that's how it ended up. I went to UCLA. Okay. And when I was coming out of UCLA, there were. There were two soccer leagues in the U.S. one was the North American Soccer League, was the NASL, and that was the league that had Pele.

[B]

Old Pele.

[A]

The old Pele, but like, actually old Pele. Yes. Right. With the Cosmos. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that league was at the time I got drafted. That league was struggling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The other league that was sort of propping up soccer in the early mid-80s was the major Indoor Soccer League. And the whole idea was you play this sort of, you know, version of soccer in an arena. And the idea at the time was to fill dates in an arena. And at the time, in 84, it was on fire. In some cities, the MISL was out drawing the NBA team.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

It was on fire. I got drafted in both leagues, right. I got drafted in the nasl, and I got drafted by. In the misl, Right. And I really wanted to play in the outdoor version, but it wasn't long for it. I said, okay, if I'm going to continue this, I'll just do the indoor version. And I got drafted by the team that was owned by Dr. Buss, who owned the Lakers and played at the Forum.

[B]

Okay, yeah, I'm seeing where this is going.

[A]

Dr. Buss was a huge fan of it. And he would visit the locker room, and this is 84, 85, showtime. The Lakers are. Are on fire. And so when Dr. Buss came in the locker room, and that's a big celebrity coming in the locker room. And I remember this one time, he would make his rounds and say hello. And I said, Dr. Buss, how many people did we have here tonight? And, like. Like, he would know. I mean, he's the owner of the Lakers. He doesn't know how many the indoor soccer team drew, Right. I'm sure he just pulled a number out of somewhere. And I said, do we make money?

[B]

You're a player.

[A]

I'm a player. And I said, do you know I'm like this kid, right? I said, do we make money?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't remember his answer. Right. But he went back to his daughter Jeannie, hey, there's this kid on the soccer team who's got an interesting curiosity about the business. And that's how I established a relationship with the Forum and the Buss family. And then when Jeannie, who at the time was running, she was doing tennis and volleyball exhibitions, she was in need of a. Someone who could help sell sponsorships. And her father said, what about that kid?

[B]

Right?

[A]

And so that's how I started at the farm is selling tennis and volleyball sponsorships for exhibitions. And I didn't know anything except just sort of. I had kind of a gift of gab, and I could work hard. And that's how I started.

[B]

I love it. And then all the way up to the president of the Lakers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you and I Met just socially, you know, we just met for lunch for no reason whatsoever. Correct. And you really have been on a leadership journey. Who modeled leadership for you? Like, where did you learn it? Where did you get it? Was it a coach? Was it a parent? Did it come at work? Like, because you, you are one of those leaders that I get to write about.

[A]

You know, I coach, I coach my kids. I've coached in the past. Obviously I played and I, and I played for a lot of coaches. And I think that coaching is a form of leadership. And I 100% bring a lot of how I coach into how I lead a team in, in the business world. And I, I got a lot of those different principles through coaching because they translate so well from team sports to business and how you motivate employees.

[B]

The biggest one being you don't play on the field.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Which I think a lot of leaders forget.

[A]

Correct. And it's, it's this notion that a good coach is over there.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

A good coach is over there offering encouragement and, and advice and suggestions. A good coach is not standing next to you micromanaging every move. It's impossible.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There has to be a distance. And a good coach gives it his or her players authority to go with the responsibility.

[B]

Yeah. The thing that I find amazing about some of the winning most coaches in history, and you look at John Wooden and others like him, that sports, which is a finite game and the goal, actually the goal is to win, that the coaches themselves, these winning, most coaches ever, were not obsessed with winning. They were obsessed with the team. They're obsessed with the esprit de corps and all those things. And I guess in your experience in sports and in business, that's hard. Right. That's hard to put aside. What is the actual purpose of the end of the season and to be like, nope, I just care about the team. Like, where does that come from in some leaders? And I don't just mean in sports, but in business as well. Like, that ability to be like, it's okay, focus on each other, focus on taking care of, you know, the fundamentals, everything will work out. Like, I struggle with that as well.

[A]

We all do.

[B]

It's really hard when the pressures are there and the goals are there and you know, you disagree with decisions.

[A]

You know, the ability to every day have sort of the long view of what success looks like and not try to day trade in success.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

And what I just said right then I could have been talking about team sports or I could have been talking

[B]

about business, but there's a game and there's a season.

[A]

Infinite.

[B]

Like in the infinite mindset. I mean, I wrote about the infinite game and the infinite mindset to relieve the stress of needing to play with finite mindset or when there is no finish line. But in sports, legit, there is an end of the season and you want to be ahead.

[A]

I think so much of that, so much of it is controllable. Now in sports, there's talent, and talent is talent.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And sometimes you're just outmatched, talent wise. But so much of your ability to have success today and throughout the season is, Is within your control.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And it's. And it's the coach's job to define what that looks like. I think the best coaches and the best leaders, they. They define your role. Like good teams and good businesses. The members of the team understand what my role is.

[B]

That's interesting.

[A]

They understand what my job is. Right. This is your job. And I used to say all the time is like, if we're a baseball team and the right fielder decides to come stand next to the pitcher just because the right fielder wants to stand next to the pitcher, we're in trouble if the ball gets hit to right field.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because that's, that's the. The right fielder not doing their role. Not fulfilling their role.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And so in order for us to be successful, then we need you and you and you and you to. To do your role, to help the collective. Okay, now, now I get it. I understand you want to be a pitcher, right fielder. So independent of you fulfilling your role as the right fielder for us today, for us to be successful today and for the long term, let's talk separately about your desire to be a pitcher.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And how we can try and help you achieve your goal and your aim, your desire to be a pitcher while also fulfilling your role as a right fielder.

[B]

So let's translate this to business now, because I'm guilty of this, which is because I'm very comfortable in chaos. I'm just like, just get it done. And when you have a little bit of scale and a little bit of momentum, now all of a sudden you have divisions of labor and people doing multiple things and the roles aren't clear. And I think you're right. Especially when people have ambition, they're like, oh, I'm going to do more of this, because that's what I want to do. Even though we need that. This idea that you can do both, but by having the clearly articulated roles, it seems so basic. And I think most Companies do do it. I think most companies do a bad job over most companies or a lot of companies don't do it. I was a late learner to this one. Like having to write everything down in crystal clear terms what someone's role is. You've had the opportunity to work with some of the greats in sports and basketball. And even if people aren't basketball fans, they've heard of LeBron James, they've heard of Kobe Bryant, they've heard of these names. What did you learn from them? What did you learn from Kobe?

[A]

Oh, gosh. Kobe had this incredible ability to compartmentalize. Kobe understood what the goal was at any given point in time, and he understood the role that I, Kobe, need to play in order for I, Kobe, to be successful and for the group to be successful. And that that role can change Kobe as the person in that moment.

[B]

Give me an example.

[A]

So we have three boys, and we were at a game, and our oldest, Jude, he basketball player. And he was. He was a young guy. And Jude's as sweet and as nice of a human being you'd ever want to meet. I used to say to show my wife, like, he needs a little more grit. Holistically, we're trying to raise nice young men, but wish he had a little more grit, right? And that nice young man part is going to serve him well. But when he's playing basketball, wish he had more grit. And so we were at the arena before a game, and Kobe was standing there. We. He would say hello, and he asked Jude how he's doing. And Jude says, good playing. Da, da da. And. And I said, you know, Kobe, he needs a little more bite. And Kobe standing next to the sideline. Kobe's standing on the court next to the sideline. And he said, jude, this is how I look at it when I'm on the court. And he literally stepped off of the court. Nice guy. Step back on, off. Nice guy. He said, jude, you can be both. You can be both because you are. This does not mean you cannot be that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think professional athletes at the highest level have this amazing ability to compartmentalize and to leave whatever is going on in here or out there, they check it at the door.

[B]

Yeah. It's the thing I find amazing about professional sports, which is the talent. Like, there's lots of great golfers, there's lots of great tennis players, but caving under the pressure. And these elite athletes, sure, they've got amazing talent, but it's the mental fortitude that they don't cave under. The pressure that I find particularly astonishing. You know, bottom of the ninth, you're down by two runs. There's, you know, two outs, you know, winning run on base, and you hit a home run, like, where does that come from?

[A]

I'm not an elite athlete. I've never been one at that level. And. But I think the elite, elite athletes, they don't, they don't focus on bottom of the ninth, I need to hit a home run.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know what they focus on, but I think all they focus on is what are the fundamentals, what do I need to do in this pitch? Yeah, it's not. I'm worried about this at bat. I'm worried about this pitch.

[B]

So what they're doing is they're taking the stakes off. Yes, I read, I read. I. We all say I read a thing. I probably saw it on the Instagram. But I found this very interesting. A guy who did a study about elite tennis players, what he did was he looked at, I think, the top 20 or 25 tennis players in the world. And the reality is it's only the top 10 that keep cycling through, even though the top 25 are still on the list. So how come the bottom 15, the best in the world, 16, 17, 18 best. How come they don't cycle up to the finals? Right. They all have sponsors, they all have access to resource, they all have the best coaches, they all have the best equipment, they all have the best diets. Like, it's all. Even Steven, right. And what he learned was these, the, the, the top echelon have a love for the game that when they win a point, they go, ah, I love this game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when they lose a point, they go, lost that one. But you just wait for the next one. Individually, they save tiny bits of energy because they're just, there's a. They're more relaxed, they're not carrying that stress. And by the time you get to the end, that has now built up and you have way more energy to play.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it's. Yes, it's partially mindset, but it's also the ability to just be relaxed throughout the whole game and love the game each moment.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And not take the loss of a point like it's the end of the world. It's a point.

[A]

It's one point.

[B]

It's a point. And I'll. You just wait for the next one.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And that joy is what separated. He found that the most elite athletes from everybody else. And I wonder if it's the same in all Athletics.

[A]

I would think so.

[B]

Basketball. There's stars and then there's kind of like everybody else.

[A]

Everything's about the details.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's always going to be about what are the intangibles that you're doing that. That if you can stack those things over and over and over, how many times can you multiply behavior. Right. Can you multiply consistently? I was in the. I was in the GY once, and at one end, Austin Reeves was shooting threes, and at the other end, a G league player was shooting threes independently. And they're both making them swish. Swish.

[B]

What's G league?

[A]

G league is the. The minor league, minor league for basketball. They're both consistent, making.

[B]

You got a star starter, Laker, and a G league guy. Both shooting threes.

[A]

Both shooting threes. Independent.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Both making baskets. Basket, basket, basketball. And I thought, what is the difference?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why is Austin Reaves. Austin Reaves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this. This young man is. Is. Is. Is trying to bust through, to have the opportunity to be Austin Reeves and. And it has to be the intangibles. They're both talented. They're both making a bunch of baskets. Correct. They're both good. But what is it that allows Austin to be Austin? I think it's. It's the totality of. When you're talking about a great anything. It's the totality of it. They don't waste time.

[B]

Because I'm trying to now, like, obviously, and now I want to get off the court and come.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because you ran a business. I mean, you weren't. You weren't in the locker room.

[A]

You ran.

[B]

You ran the business for the Lakers. I'm curious, you know, is that the same at work? Are there people who like the way they manage stress, the way they show up as a team, like it's the slow and steady.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you see two extremely talented people? But for some reason, 1. Why won't one rise to the top? And there's a frustration that builds in. Because people know they're talented. Then why aren't they bubbling up now? We're assuming good leadership.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Politics and stuff like that, but, you know, all things being fair and equal in a. In a good environment. I guess what I'm trying to get at is somebody who's led at the highest levels and had incredible success in business. You know, what lessons can I discern as a leader on how to foster my talent, recognize my talent, see the right things, or how can I be the talent? Who's. I know I'M smart and talented. I know I've got a good work ethic. Why the heck am I not getting recognized?

[A]

There's so much that goes into that you have to give them enough grace to make mistakes, but not so much that they'll get. They'll make a career defining mistake. Right. You have to give them the ability to make these kind of mistakes that allow them to grow versus a mistake that's going to be damaging. It comes back to understanding the role. Do they understand the role? What you find in successful companies is employees who are in an incredible rush and getting them to understand, slow down.

[B]

But that's a generational thing too, right? It is a generational thing and we don't need to go into all of those reasons. But young people aren't wrong to keep looking for jobs because companies aren't loyal to them anymore.

[A]

Sometimes employees and young and old, they go looking for solutions when there's no problem because they think I need to do that. And it's understanding this notion between am I trying to encourage change or am I trying to encourage evolution?

[B]

It's so hard. Right. And again, I'm going to go back to sports. If you just think about the greats, Michael Jordan was a profoundly different player from Kobe Bryant, from LeBron James, you know, and I watched that documentary, the Last Dance. I found it fascinating. And because Michael Jordan was not the person I thought he was.

[A]

Right?

[B]

I thought he was this happy, smiley sweetheart of a man because that was the brand he cultivated. And he was an a fiercely competitive guy who will happily take a few coins away from the security guards because he beat them gambling.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Just fierce competitor who would make up stories in his head about the other players that they said stuff about him in the press just to be angry at them on the court.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And is that repeatable or is that a Mike, Is that like a once in a generation kind of talent?

[A]

I'm not sure you can teach what you just said. I don't think you can say, here's your checklist of the things you need to do. And when you do these things, then you will be that.

[B]

So you can't be like Mike I.

[A]

But I think you can encourage behavior that will elicit that if you have it within.

[B]

But I don't want to work with people like that in my company. I don't want to work with people who come in angry so that they can win.

[A]

No, no, no. Because then it becomes they're pulling against it. They're the right fielder who is trying to run And. And make everyone's play. Do you know, in. In any. In any endeavor, there are three unspoken words that will ruin any endeavor.

[B]

Go on.

[A]

As long as.

[B]

Say more.

[A]

I want you, Simon, I want you to fulfill this function for us on our team. If you fulfill this function, then we can be successful. Will you fulfill this function? Simon says, yeah, sure. Of course. In his mind, he says, as long as I make more money than everybody else, as long as I get the credit, as long as I can be in charge and translate that into any sporting situation. As long as our three words, the. The three unspoken words that can undo any endeavor.

[B]

Because it's conditions.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's conditional.

[A]

It's unspoken condition.

[B]

It's conditional teamwork.

[A]

Yes. And those three words, we all have a tendency to have them, of course, but those three words, when you put them in your pocket and you carry them with you every day, it makes success so hard to achieve.

[B]

I want to unpack this because this is good. So it's. Unfortunately, we can't hear what somebody's saying in their head, so when we say, I need to do this, they go, aye, aye.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

As long as. Right. We don't know what they're saying. I know for me, as I'm listening to this, the times that I have said it and we've all said it, the times that I've said it, instead of just getting away with it, what you're saying is, check yourself. Why are you saying as long as. And if you're saying as long as you pay me more than everybody else, the question is, am I feeling underappreciated? Am I feeling unworthy or unseen? Is this my ambition? That I'm not meeting my own expectations? And I think the idea of, if I start saying to myself, as long as I want to inquire to myself, okay, where's that coming from? Or maybe I just hate this company and I'm just here temporarily, you know, but I want to check in with myself. That's a. That's a huge lesson right there. Yes, it is, because otherwise I become a conditional team player.

[A]

Okay, but. Yes, yes, but let's look at it. Simon is the. The team member, and I'm the. The man, the leader of this team.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because I think we have a tendency to all have as long as. Okay. And it's just what we do with our as long as.

[B]

Right. Yeah.

[A]

And how do I kind of manage that? And. And try to make sure that I'm helpful to Simon, what I have found useful for me, and. And helpful I think is I sit with team members and I say, hey, Simon, right now you're the, we're going to hire you, we're going to promote you. You're going to be, you are the director of abc. Okay. You're the director of this, and this is what we expect you to do at such a. Simon says, okay, that's great. I want to do that. And I say, okay, Simon, you're coming into this job. You've applied to be this job for the director of abc. What's next? How does director of ABC set you up for the next thing? What's next after that? What is Simon looking to use Director of ABC to become Vice President of abc? And what I do oftentimes is, is it's, it's a way of, of encouraging someone to have a little bit of self reflection on their own journey. Okay, so if Simon says, look, I want to be the director of seat sales, and then I say, okay, that's, that's tremendous, Simon, because we think you could do that. What do you want to do next? What do you see that leading to? And Simon says, well, I want to be an astronaut. Okay, I don't know how that's going to help you, Simon. Okay, but if Simon says, look, I have huge aspirations as the director to within one year be a vice president and it's this, I need to do this. Okay, Simon, how are we going to make that happen for you? How. What are the things that we're going to be able to do to try to put you in a place so that you can try and achieve your goal? I think what we do is we do two things. We start pulling out the. As long as we start pulling out of the pocket, and at the same time, Simon starts feeling a little bit more safe to share his ambition because. And as long as it's a condition. But it's an ambition.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

It's generally an ambition. It's, it's not generally a negative. It's usually this is what I want for myself.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

And so if Simon feels that Tim has created a safe space, Right. And an encouraging, be ambitious and a, a sort of mentor type setting where Simon goes, look, he's, he's on my side here. He's going to help me.

[B]

Can you do that for every person?

[A]

It's difficult, it's hard to scale what you can do. Is this okay? If, if Simon is the vice president, I'm the president, I say, look, how can I help you? And I'm going to encourage you to do the same.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the vice president talks to the directors and the director and says the same thing. And the directors talk to the managers.

[B]

Well, I think where it is scalable is each line of, of the hierarchy can take responsibility for the people in their care.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

So I can't ask everybody on the entire team, tell me what your ambition is. I don't even work with everybody.

[A]

Correct. It's impossible.

[B]

But scale. But you. But it can be scaled down, down to the. And somebody can say, they have to be safe enough to say, I don't

[A]

know, a hundred percent, like, I like

[B]

my job, I like it here, but I don't know exactly. That's allowed.

[A]

I'm trying to learn, I'm trying to foster an instinct.

[B]

The LA Lakers are a remarkable organization, not just because of their success on the court, but their success off the court.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think you did a lot of things to change and revolutionize that place and help make the franchise and the brand what it has become.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There are many things about your leadership style. I only know a few of the stories. And I'm going to try and get more out of you because. Because I learn from you every time I get to sit down with you. You told me one story. First of all, you don't sit courtside.

[A]

No.

[B]

You could, but you don't. You have your seats. They're above where the players come out. They're still good seats.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But they're back.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And those are your seats. And you, you give all the better seats to others. And you told me a story how now and then, especially when you've got a couple extra courtside seats that are unused, you will go up into the rafters, specifically into the rafters, you'll look for a parent child.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Who they got last minute tickets or this is what they can afford. Whatever the dynamic is, you're looking for that parent child experience and you tap them on the shoulder and you say, come with me. And before they know it, they're sitting on the court side of an LA Lakers game. What was the first time you did that and what was the motivation?

[A]

Probably the first time I did it was when we were at the new arena and we had moved downtown from the Forum, so we were at Staples center and we had some extras and I just got, I had some time and I thought I'm just going to do this.

[B]

I mean, you didn't call up your celebrity friends.

[A]

No.

[B]

You didn't, you know, like. No, because you know, sports teams like to have celebrities on the Sides, Yes.

[A]

And the Lakers have plenty. The sport of basketball is just the vehicle. That's the vehicle.

[B]

This is.

[A]

The sports industry is a business of memories. Like, I don't know all the stories of the folks that I have helped over the years from time to time. But I think what if whatever else is going on in their life, this is the biggest thing for them. And all of a sudden they get moved down to the floor from way, way, way up high because that was either the only thing they could afford or the only thing they could find. And all of a sudden on this evening that the parent is trying to make special, it becomes life changing. All because they got to move to a seat. How that completely changes the dynamic.

[B]

So let me put on my cold business hat, the cynical hat that I know other people are think, right? Which is you're giving away $10,000 worth of seats. Love that you're giving away memories. Love that you're making sports about memories. But the long term value of the ticket holders who spent, who bought the cheapest tickets in the stadium, in the arena, I don't have a lot of long term value in those. They're probably not going to become season ticket holders. The likelihood of them being able to afford front row tickets within a short period of time is low. That's a bad investment.

[A]

Correct. If, if the financial person would say, why on earth are you doing this? Okay, so it's. The game's at 7:30, it's 7:00'. Clock. Okay. 6:45, I've got two tickets in my pocket. Let's pretend they're $2,500 a piece. There's no one standing in line at the box office who's going to buy, who's going to spend $2500 a piece?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Right. So you're going to, you're going to eat those tickets.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. The money is going to be.

[B]

The money's lost.

[A]

The money's lost already. So what can you do with that money? Right. Or what can you do with that opportunity? And the way I choose to have. I've always chosen to believe this is, this is in the profit and loss statement. Yes. That $5,000, twenty $500 times is gone. That opportunity is gone because the game is going to be played and that opportunity is lost.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But we move those two people down, right. They become evangelical.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they tell two people and they go home and they tell and they tell and they tell.

[B]

The Lakers is the greatest organization on

[A]

the planet and it scales.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I believe that successful brands are built one tiny little act at a time. It's not. There are giant movements, but supported by tiny little acts that just continue to grow the brand. Okay. And when you grow a brand, when a successful company becomes a successful brand, then they are worth more money. Okay, I'm going to play with me,

[B]

I'm going to play this back because. Okay. So the argument is that if you're willing, it's kind of like exercise. If you're willing to just keep doing the little bits, it will build up. And if you just trust that you create evangelicals who will, you know, a rich person who gets to sit in good seats will. Will tell a couple friends because, you know, I got to sit on. You know, I got to sit near the court where somebody who. The chances of them sitting by the court in their entire life is close to zero. Right. They will tell everyone.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And the goodwill that comes from how great this organization is even when the team loses. How I love the Lakers ripples and ripples and ripples.

[A]

I believe that.

[B]

And the cost was actually zero because the money was sunk anyway.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you've got, you know, few thousand dollars worth of empty seats, you could eat it and just leave them empty. That is an option. Or you could take the risk to do one of these little acts and you can't just do one. That's the problem.

[A]

No, it's not. You cannot be a one off.

[B]

You have to do it now and then.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it has to have some consistency. And at some point the brand starts to have more power and all of a sudden you're selling more merchandise and nobody can really point to exactly what it was because the team did fine last year. But for some reason we're seeing Merch doing really well and it wasn't directly tied to some championship that these things, you know, this is where I think economists and sort of the Internet of things and hypermetrics, which is not everything is easy to measure, but everything has an impact. And you're experimenting. You're not just. You're doing that and many other things.

[A]

That's what it has to be. It has to be other.

[B]

You're not taking a bet that giving away tickets is the thing.

[A]

When you explain your. Why.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To the organization.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The organization has to have the, the comfort and the, the feel the safety to do their own acts of kindness because now you get them to metastasize. Right.

[B]

Can I tell you a ripple that you created that you don't even know you created? That is exactly this theory. The first Time I met you, we sat down for lunch, and you handed me a duffel bag.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Filled. Filled with Lakers stuff.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

More than I or my family could. Could consume. Right, right. T shirts and sweatshirts and what's not, my friends and family took what they wanted. You know, they picked at it like a vault, like vultures. I took what I wanted, and I still have tons of stuff. And so I have that bag with stuff in it in my trunk. I'll go to a restaurant, and the valet will come and bring my car to me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I'll be like, come with me. I. I'll pop the trunk open, I'll open the bag and say, take what you want. He'll hold up an $80 jacket. He's like, can I have this? I'm like, you can have that. Right. And I, like, drive away and I see him with his Lakers jacket on.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so now, simply because you gave me a bunch of stuff that I didn't throw away, and I continue to give away to people who want it, not just randos, like, people who, like, do you want something from the Lakers? Oh, my God, I love the Lakers. Right. And so now these ripples of goodwill from the Lakers continue to spread. And I say, oh, the Lakers gave it to me. I'm going to give it to you.

[A]

It's a great feeling.

[B]

Great feeling.

[A]

Have I ever told you about Caillou being a Laker? No, I never told you about Katie. So pre pandemic, I had this thought for a while. It must be so frustrating if you're a Laker employee and you go to a barbecue. Because if you go to a barbecue and you're a Laker employee and somebody says, what do you do? And. And you say, I work for the Lakers. First question generally is, how do you get free tickets? Like, not every employee is just like, yeah, I got. I got tickets everywhere. And I. I thought in a moment, they're like.

[B]

Like, you're a king.

[A]

I work for the Lakers. No, I don't really. And so we created this program that I'd wanted, and it was called Caught yout Being a Laker. And what it was is we gave every employee these two cards that were built out, and they look like, you know, the size of an ATM card, but they're cards. And it said, caught, you been a Laker and stuff, and had some details on the back. And every employee got two. And every card was worth. Was good for two free tickets. And the goal was, if you're out in the city and you See someone shooting baskets wearing a Laker shirt. If you see someone at the mall and they're wearing a Laker hat, you can walk up and you can say,

[B]

you know, hi, I caught you being a Laker.

[A]

I work for the Lakers, and I want to tell you I just caught you being a Laker, and I want to send you to a game that's brilliant. Okay. And. And the idea is it's. It's evangelical. And the best part, the magic part of it is you don't promote it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You don't. You don't turn around and turn the camera on yourself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You let it just happen.

[B]

It's not a PR stunt.

[A]

No. No. Because that's not what it is. It's not a PR stunt.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

Yeah. And the first weekend we did it, the following Monday, there's a knock on my door, and Steve, who works in the mailroom, came in, and he's crying. And I said, steve, what's wrong? He said, tim, I did it this weekend. I went out and I saw a father and a son shooting hoops, and the kid had a jersey on. And I went up and I told him, I've caught you being a Laker, and I want to give you this. And I said, steve, that's so amazing. Tell me what. Like, I wanted to know what happened. He said, timmy, the little boy started crying, and the dad started crying because we can never get to a game and we can't ever find tickets. And Steve says, so then I start crying. Steve said, tim, thank you for letting us do this, because I felt so proud to be able to go out in the community and do this for someone. It can't just be the Tim of the world going up and handing out two tickets. This is Steve, the mailroom guy, going around in the community. So now the only rule was you had to share your story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if you could get a picture.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was it. And then you could get more. Steve and others, they became addicted to this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're out on the weekend trying to find people because it was a. It was a. It was a rush for them.

[B]

Yeah. I think what sports has that a lot of companies don't, which is an advantage to you. And it's a warning or shot across the bow for regular companies, which is your customer. And not to demean the fan, but your customer, the person who pays, who buys, is right there. They're screaming and they're yelling, and you have that very close contact with them. You can easily identify your customer out in the Market.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, a lot of companies can't see their customers. They don't have daily access to their customers. Their customers don't fill arenas multiple times a week. And we forget that the customers are people. We forget that they have families and emotions and ambitions, and they become just dollars and cents and returns on investments. And that's how we treat them. That's how they feel treated. I'll give you a really funny example. I was flying home from Toronto, and the customs is on the Toronto side. And so you have to get to the airport really early because sometimes the customs lane's insanely long. Right. And so I got through really quickly, which never happens, which means I was actually early enough to make the earlier flight. So I went up to the Air Canada counter, I was flying Air Canada, and I said, hey, I managed to get through really early. Do you have seats on the earlier flight? She goes, we do. I'm like, great. Can I get on the earlier flight, please? Go to the same airport. She goes, that'll be $600. I'm like, no, no, no. I'm just. I'm just going to get on the earlier flight. You know, I've done this a million times. Every airline lets you take empty seats. She goes, it's $600. I said, look, I'm not gonna pay the $600, clearly. Right. So I'm either gonna just wait here or you'll let me on the plane. And she goes, well, then you're gonna have to wait. I said, I just have to ask. What you're telling me is you would rather send an empty seat back to New York rather than make a customer happy and be able to get home an hour earlier. Right. I just. I'm just checking in with you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

She goes, sir, this is a business.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's literally what she said to my face. Now, I don't fault her for it.

[A]

No.

[B]

Because her leaders and her leaders. Leaders. Her leaders. Leaders. Are telling them, you treat that human being like a line item on a spreadsheet. Because this is a business. One of the reasons I love spending time with you and one of the things that I learned from you, and it's a huge reminder, and that's what I've. I sort of why I wanted you to come on here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is it's to remind us that business is always human.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Even if you're in a B2B space, a human being will make a purchase, will be the client.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That at some point you cannot avoid the human being.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And the more you understand that people are messy and people have insecurities and ambitions and desires and dreams. And if every now and then, if you can find ways, whether it's caught you being a Laker or bringing people down from the upper deck down to the front and many of the other things that you did, what you are reminding yourselves is to show up every day for the human beings who like to buy your product.

[A]

The Lakers are a gigantic international brand.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That has a gigantic international fan base.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

1%. 1% of the fan base ever gets to actually go to a game live because they're.

[B]

It's too. It's too. Right.

[A]

You have to remember that. Get out of the arena. You cannot treat this like some sort of monolith. Right.

[B]

It.

[A]

You have to get out and remember that what you're doing impacts people who are watching you. But you don't know they're watching you. But you have to know. You have to accept that they're watching you. And every single.

[B]

It's not just ratings.

[A]

No. And it's. Every single interaction that you have has to be genuine because. Okay. It's. It's Jenga. Yeah, it's Jenga. Right. Okay. So you have your organization, you have your brand, and you're. You're the person at the. At the airline that. Right. Then for you. Okay. The. The Whatever airline. ABC airline.

[B]

And by the way, I'm now telling stories about Air Canada on. On air. I mean, that's what happens.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

I mean, it cuts both ways.

[A]

Because it's Jenga.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Air Canada's Jenga.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Lost a.

[B]

Lost a brick.

[A]

Lost a brick.

[B]

You can only lose so many bricks.

[A]

The next day they did the same thing to somebody else. Air Canada's Django lost another brick. You don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When the last brick gets pulled.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you can't play with that. It's fragile.

[B]

And companies confuse good times for being intelligent. Like, if the Lakers are winning and you're selling a lot of tickets and you're selling a lot of merch, that doesn't mean the company is functioning. That means the team is winning.

[A]

Yes. That means that the basketball players playing really well.

[B]

But you're. You're building a big business to survive when you're winning and when you're not winning. Yes.

[A]

And. And the thing is, you can't run. In my opinion. You cannot run a. A basketball team or a sports organization. Like a utility.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. You need us utility. Therefore, we're going to treat you however we feel like treating you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because we are a business airline.

[B]

Right?

[A]

No, you cannot do that, because then, then everywhere they're pulling away the Jenga. And then one day it falls, and it's far harder to build it back up than it is to keep it up.

[B]

How did you learn this? I mean, with all the pressures you have to lead a, as you said, a global powerhouse of a brand. Because the pressures on you, I have to believe, were unbelievable. And the financial ambitions and the pressures on you from the organization were huge as well. I mean, that's your job, is to grow the enterprise.

[A]

The leader I am now is not always the leader I was. It's an evolutionary thing, right? You evolve to what it is. Like leading is not a tangible thing. Right. It's not something you can hold on to. You don't get a license. You don't get a here's your leadership passport. And now you're good as a leader for five years until it's time to renew it, and then we'll let you know.

[B]

I wish that were the case.

[A]

And so you don't.

[B]

You don't get that.

[A]

You. At some point, I found a calmness in, in how I approach it, and I. 100%. And I learned this, you know, gosh, my wife, Shoal, always, always reminds me with coaching, you know, like, I'd be coaching a kid's team, and I, you know, they're not doing this and this, this kid's not trying and this. And she would say, but, you know, just meet them where they are. Like, I know they're not being the athlete you want them to meet them where they are. And I, I took that and applied that to the workplace. Like, I want to meet each person where they are, but I don't want to just meet each employee where they are. I want to meet each business partner where they are. I want to meet each ticket holder where they are. Right. Because everyone has a different viewpoint. There's a French author from years and years ago, Anais Neen, and she would say, we don't see things as they are. We see them as we are. And that's so true. And so every single interaction is different. And taking from Shoal, I had to learn meet them. Meet every single person where they are.

[B]

So reconcile that with accountability.

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

Because a cynic listening to meet them where they are might hear that as Nobody's held accountable.

[A]

100. No. 100%. No. That is the, the unspoken agreement that we're going to have. There's going to be. Look, I'm Going to. I am going to treat you like a human being. Okay. I am not going to treat you like a disposable, changeable employee. Okay. But you have to do your part too. What are you doing to help us as you are trying to help you? There has to absolutely be an accountant. It can't just be chaos.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, I've made this mistake. It has to be order.

[B]

I ran a hippie commune. That's what my business was like. I tried so hard to be nice to everybody that we couldn't meet deadlines. There was no accountability, and it just didn't work. I over indexed on meet people where they are, you know, and what I realized was that I thought I was actually doing people a service. And what I realized is it actually was bad for the people who work there because nobody had any sense of accomplishment. Nobody had a sense of we did this. Nobody had a sense of difficulty in like getting through something. And so when we started to add accountability to the mix, still meeting people whether. But adding accountability, the quality of the team went up, the quality of the work went up, the morale went up, and we could actually meet deadlines and get work done. So it's. And what I've learned is like, people want to accomplish and they want to do good.

[A]

Do you know what people crave? Crave? People crave caring structure.

[B]

Caring structure. That's such a nice way of putting it.

[A]

They do. Yeah, they do. They do. People want, they want boundaries.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Look at every child who's gone.

[B]

Who's gone off, you know, sort of boundaryless.

[A]

And, and you look at that and, and they're like, well, they have no boundaries. Kids will push them, they'll fight against it, but they crave them. They need them. There's safety in it. There's comfort in it. Employees are the same thing. And accountability. Yes. Sometimes you have to hug them with arms wrapped in barbed wire. Right. But you're still hugging them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they know it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They know it because.

[B]

Well, you're talking about having difficult conversations.

[A]

Yeah. I tell anybody who worked for me in, in the Lakers, you're a young parent. You're. You're a young person. You're. You're. Whatever. If I ever find out that you missed one of your kids games, a play, a recital, something that your mom or dad were doing because you were at work. At work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're gonna have a problem.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because when all is said and done, whatever took place, that one day at work is not going to be as important as these things. Because these things have an expiration date. However, that's the accountability part. And if you can, this goes back to understanding rules, setting expectations, giving people grace, understanding that I'm going to see you as a human being and see you where you want to go and how you want to be and what you want to do as a person. And I'm going to encourage you and help you get there when you have that, this two way street, okay. They, they want to protect that relationship and so they're not going to abuse it. So accountability tends to take care of itself because they want to protect that environment because it doesn't happen very often.

[B]

So. Good. I'm not letting you leave here without telling some. As you can tell, I'm not a basketball fan. Like I can name like three players from the Lakers. I apologize. I know Kareem Abdul Jabbar, but that was a long time.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

That was a very long time ago. Probably before you were there. But like Kobe and LeBron, like I can't let you live here without telling some of your favorite stories of them, things that you've learned from them.

[A]

The thing, both of them different eras, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean LeBron was coming in, was Kobe was sort of starting to transition out and both incredibly prepared. You know, when athletes do great athletes, they do their work in the dark. They do their work when no one knows. That's where the great ones get great. Like you see them, right? And they're great. But the. You talk about sort of the difference between Austin Reeves and the G. LA guy. The great ones do their work when no one's looking and no one is seeing it. That's what separates them. And those two guys, that's what they did. Kobe was ridiculous. I heard this story about Kobe. He retires. It's his last game. Okay. He has this incredible last game. You know, it's just an insane capping of a monumental career. And he lived in Newport beach and he left and got home about 2.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

He was in the gym at 4:30. Wow. The next day. Because it doesn't turn off. Yeah.

[B]

For better or for worse.

[A]

That's just, that's just who he is.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

When you have these kind of positions like I have where I had with the Lakers is you're around these like amazing human beings. You're around people like Phil Jackson. Here's the, the one thing that, you know, great leaders, great coaches. It's human first. It's always human first. They, they care about the human. Read, read about Phil Jackson. He Cared about the human being.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved.

[B]

You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved. That is about as good as it gets. You have to love them in order to win. You do not have to win in order to be loved. I love that. A couple last questions for you.

[A]

Yes, sir.

[B]

You've played a key role in ushering in one of the most dominant teams in the NBA. When you look back, what memories stand out that make the Lakers the Lakers?

[A]

The winning is like the easy one is winning. The easy is the joy of the winning. You know, the championships are amazing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

When you win a championship and you're standing on the court and it's chaos. I used to say to employees, stop, stop. And. And I know it's chaos, but let it be chaos for 30 seconds and just look around and take it in. And I don't mean look around from a macro level like stop on people's faces and look at the joy that they're experiencing. Because that's what you're going to take with you. You're not going to take that. You had to run and get 30 hats over to the players. The hats will get there. Stop and take a moment. Be present and be present and look. And that's the joy of how a fan base can surround itself on a team. The place where I saw it was. Was born in tragedy. And that's when we lost co. And you saw the impact of what an individual. Not. Not a player who had scored a bunch of points, but what an individual can have on organization and how that can bring people together. That's when you saw this team is special. This organization is special.

[B]

This organization impacts what an amazing, amazing, amazing journey.

[A]

Unbelievable. The stories that I've, you know, I've been able to experience and places I've seen and the people I've met and the. Just the people I've watched grow up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the arena.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

You're so good. I wish more leaders were like you. I do.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, I do. I think you're. I think you're a dying breed. Whether it's because you spent your life at one company or it's how you were raised as a leader. Your type used to be more common and they're becoming less common because

[A]

I think pressure.

[B]

Maybe it's your personality or maybe it's not your personality. Maybe it's that we have created work Environments that disincentivize and disallow leaders like you and the kind of leaders that I get to write about and celebrate from showing up and it's not how business should be.

[A]

Have we lost all patience?

[B]

Say more. What do you mean by that?

[A]

Well, we look more like we're day trading than investing. Have we lost patience?

[B]

Oh, yeah. We don't invest. We gamble. Investing is like, I hold on to it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I'm incorrect. Like, I invest in education, I invest in my children's future, I invest in the stock market. What we do is predominantly gambling.

[A]

Correct?

[B]

Right.

[A]

I struggle with this and I've not been in these situations as it's over on the sporting side. But, you know, this whole notion that coaches are hired to be fired. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think there's a point in time when you hire a coach in any sport and you have the press conference and you're so excited and there's so much optimism. And this co. There is a reason that that coach is standing at the podium that you're so filled with optimism that this coach is going to be the one who does whatever. And you've had meetings and interviews prior to that where you've. You. You've presumably laid out, these are the things we want to do, this is where we need to go to. And the coaches told you, okay, this is how I'm going to get there. And that you've arrived at, okay, this is the person who can do this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then after a year, things don't work out, or two years, things don't work out, or three years, at some point you fire him, fire this coach. Three years ago, this was the person who was going to take you to the promised land.

[B]

Right, Right, right.

[A]

What changed?

[B]

Right.

[A]

That now we're firing this coach and

[B]

unceremoniously and reasonably quickly.

[A]

And were there conversations that said, look, when we interviewed you, you said you were going to do these things and you're not doing them. Why?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or the coach says, look, three years ago when you interviewed me, you said you were going to do these things to support and you didn't do these.

[B]

Right. Why?

[A]

If a year in, you're saying, hey, coach, a year ago you said you were going to do these three things and you're not doing them. Why? Well, I. For whatever reason, or okay, well, let's get back to that. Like, why don't we manage our coaches and why don't we manage our leaders? Why don't we manage the heads of companies? Right. Why do we blame the person and not the problem. Why don't we work with them like we work with employees? Like, why do we just.

[B]

Because I think unless there's a wholesale change in the incentive structures, there's no incentive to be so.

[A]

Well, oftentimes coaches are fired because it's. It's the, the way that the. The GM is saving their. They're like, buying more time for themselves.

[B]

I mean, what have you. But, I mean, that's about right. You and I could talk about this forever. Yeah. All I know is I'm glad you exist.

[A]

I so appreciate this.

[B]

As always, thanks for listening. And if you liked this episode, please do remember to subscribe to A Bit of Optimism wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts and remember, new episodes drop every Tuesday. A Bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsey Garbinius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson. And if you want more cool stuff or just to find out what I'm up to, visit simonsinek. Com. Until next time, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.