← A Bit of Optimism
A Bit of Optimism
Who Are You, Really? with journalist Maria Shriver
00:42:51
We often define ourselves by what we do or who we are to other people. But at our core, who we are is often something much deeper, and sometimes wildly different, from the version that the world sees -- or projects onto you.
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- [00:01]
Devin
Hi, Devin here and I'm a producer at A Bit of Optimism. If you've ever listened to Simon asking our guests thought provoking questions and wish you could turn the tables, well, we've heard you and now here's your chance. For the first time ever, on April 22nd, Simon is hosting a live Q and A exclusively for subscribers of the Optimism Library. You'll get to ask him the questions and be a part of the conversation. If you'd like to join, head over to SimonSinek.com and sign up for the Optimism Library. On top of live Q&As, your subscription gives you access to everything we offer, which includes more than 200 lessons that will help you grow at work. It's all in one place for one price. Get it all in the Optimism library on SimonSinek.com we hope to see you there soon.
- [00:53]
Simon Sinek
You and I actually don't talk on the phone that much.
- [00:56]
Maria Shriver
No, we text, but you don't ever pick up the phone. That cat picture comes up and I call and there's the cat.
- [01:02]
Simon Sinek
It's not personal. It's because my phone's always on. Do not disturb. But when I see you called, I always call you back.
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Maria Shriver
I always call you back.
- [01:11]
Simon Sinek
We all know people with big personalities, but we would rarely call them kind. We also know people with small personalities and they are usually the kindest. But every now and then there's a big personality, a huge personality that shows up that just exudes kindness and warmth. And one of those people is Maria Shriver. I had the opportunity to sit down with Maria to talk about her new book, I Am Maria. Maria is my best friend and to hear her talk about the journey she is on to reclaim her own identity is nothing short of inspiring. And that little question I am and what it yields turns out has great value to all of us to find out who we really are and why we love ourselves. I am Simon and this is a bit of optimism. Yours and my friendship. I think most people, including me, would not have predicted. We met kind of by accident, right? You reached out to me many years ago. To this day, I've never asked you how you got my email, but you reached out to me out of the blue and said, my son Patrick is a young entrepreneur. I don't know if you're ever in la. Would you like to meet him? And I said, of course. And I came to LA and I met Patrick and he and I had a lovely time. When I got back to New York, you sent me a lovely email saying thank You. And I wrote back and saying who Patrick is is any statement about what kind of mother you are. You must be an amazing human being, because he's an amazing kid.
- [02:44]
Maria Shriver
Thank you.
- [02:45]
Simon Sinek
I said, I would love to meet you. So next I'm in la, I'll come out and see you. And I come back to LA on Work for Work. And you said, come for dinner on Sunday.
- [02:53]
Maria Shriver
Yes.
- [02:54]
Simon Sinek
And I thought it would be you, me and Patrick having dinner at your house. That's what I thought. I walk into the house, there's some folks getting dinner ready, and you're not around.
- [03:03]
Maria Shriver
Yeah, that's kind of normal.
- [03:04]
Simon Sinek
That's kind of normal. And so I'm. I'm stranger in a strange land. And I said, is Maria here?
- [03:10]
Maria Shriver
Right?
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Simon Sinek
And they said, she's downstairs. And I said, where's downstairs? I went down and sitting on the couch was Chris Pratt. And I had no idea he was your son in law at the time. So I'm like, okay, hi. He's like, hi, I'm Chris. You know, hi, I'm Simon. Where's Maria? Anyway, long story short, it was the start of what became now an amazing friendship. And you're. You're my best friend. If I say one of my best friends, I get in trouble. You're my best friend. And it is a joy to have you here, talking to you very formally. It's weird. This whole thing is weird.
- [03:45]
Maria Shriver
I tell, I tell the story. Well, I actually don't tell the story. I just say, like, you're my bestie. And that's exactly how it happened. And you walked into a family dinner on Sunday night, which was packed and overwhelming. It was.
- [04:01]
Simon Sinek
I mean. No, no, meaning the personalities, they are. I mean, there's a lot of big personalities at the table.
- [04:06]
Maria Shriver
Yeah, there's a lot of big personalities at the table. But you held your own and you got into a, like a big discuss with my brother Bobby. And. And then Chris and everybody was talking, and then you stood in the door. You're like, that was fun. And I'm like, he's fun, he's smart, he's fun. I'm gonna pursue him. And. And then we started walking. We walked and we talked our way, you know, through years.
- [04:31]
Simon Sinek
We covered years.
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Maria Shriver
We covered years in weeks.
- [04:34]
Simon Sinek
We pioneered the long distance walk.
- [04:37]
Maria Shriver
Right.
- [04:38]
Simon Sinek
It was very early in Covid, where we said, I think we can go outside. I think if we stay very far apart from each other. And we just started walking. And we did it every single week.
- [04:46]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. For really long periods. And we talked about Everything we talked about everything. And it was so intimate and deep and meaningful and bonding and it was so rewarding for me because those are the kinds of conversations I like to have. These are the kinds of relationships I like to have. So, so that wasn't unexpected to me to fall in love with you and to have this relationship with you. But what was so beautiful, what is so beautiful, is that you developed that with each of my kids and my brothers and my son in law and you took the time to figure out who each person was and you have a different relationship with each of them, which is so, so beautiful. And so few people do that, I think. And my kids often say that to me. You know, they'll meet somebody 10 times and they'll go, oh, hey, your name is, or what, and you know what their interests are, what makes them laugh. They know you, you talk to them individually, you make an effort. And so you have this relationship with my whole family, with my brothers. And, and so I think that's such a gift in my life and it's a gift in their life. So you're in it, you're being very.
- [06:08]
Simon Sinek
Kind and thank you very much.
- [06:09]
Maria Shriver
That's true.
- [06:09]
Simon Sinek
It's a good transition, It's a good segue, which is you grew up in an insane, for you, it was normal. As a little kid, you didn't know any different, right? But like visiting Uncle Jack at the White House is what an 8 year old, 9 year old, this sort of larger than life, the Kennedy Shriver family, right? As you became older and you started to realize that your life is not like everybody else's life, how did you learn to manage that? And more importantly, kids growing up now in the Kennedy Shriver clan, and now you add a Schwarzenegger to it, how did you keep them grounded? I'm so curious because I've met a lot of kids of people who've grown up in different ways and maybe they get lucky with one of the kids staying grounded, but not all the kids.
- [06:48]
Maria Shriver
Probably take it from kind of my own creation of my own kids and go backwards. So what I, you know, wanted to do when I started a family was to make sure that the kids that Arnold and I had felt like they were a priority, felt that they were loved for who they were, not for what they did. And that they had a sense of home, a sense of calm, a sense of peace, that they understood that they were coming into a privileged home. But that part of that was also that I and their dad expected them to be of service somehow. In the world. Those were my goals and that they have manners and they be kind. Being a priority and feeling loved was the most important thing to me because I had felt like I was part of this, you know, group of, like, 27 first cousins. And I. I felt like, you know, I was always a couple rows back. Like, I just. It wasn't really clear, you know, I knew my uncles were in the front row and everything was geared around them, and we were all part a larger story, but I didn't feel like a priority. And I felt like, oh, the love was attached to what you do. This is not a complaint to my parents. I adore my parents. I love my parents. But it's the way they were raised, and it was the way I was raised, and I wanted to break that pattern. So I wanted the house not to be a place where there were fundraisers and political things. I wanted it to be a place of home. I wanted them to understand that their names and who they were was more important than the Kennedys, the Schwarzeneggers, the Shrivers, and all of that. And I wanted to talk to them at length about that, about what those legacies were. They were not theirs to uphold for the rest of their life if they didn't want to. That there was good things and bad things about all of them, that they were free to depart from them in whatever way they wanted. I also did not feel that. I think it's also different when someone is making a legacy versus inheriting a legacy.
- [08:56]
Simon Sinek
Is this a conversation that you and Arnold had when you first got pregnant with Catherine?
- [09:00]
Maria Shriver
You're like, well, I think Arnold. Arnold was creating his legacy. He had not ever grown up in a legacy, right? And so that was something that I came to the union with. I came with like, look at these kids are going to be dealing with me, the Kennedys and you. He didn't have an experience with that, so he was like, okay, well, you deal with that, you know, kind of thing.
- [09:22]
Simon Sinek
And you were very prescriptive.
- [09:23]
Maria Shriver
I was very. I was very. Like, I wanted these things for them. You know, I wanted them to feel like they were their own people. I didn't want them to feel weighed down by it. I didn't want them to walk out the door and think every person was a vote. Like, I'd walk with my grandmother and she would be like, every person's a vote. Everybody we walk by, we stop, we say hello, we smile, we keep walking, we stop, we say hello, we smile, like, oi. But I didn't want so Family was being.
- [09:52]
Simon Sinek
Having that Kennedy Shriver name. That was a job.
- [09:55]
Maria Shriver
Oh, it was like a lot. I mean, it was a lot of joy, a lot of advantages, but a lot of work. But it was, you know, I definitely felt like, okay, we were on a stage, we had a job to do. I was a player in some larger show. I wasn't quite sure what the show was. And I think for much of my life, I was trying to get out of that show. I think that's why I went into journalism. That's why I moved to California, trying to kind of figure out, well, who was I in all of this? And then, you know, be able to go back home and understand who I was in the larger storyline. And I think this is something that every kid probably deals with. Right. You know, every person is trying to figure out who they are, no matter what their family is and where is home for them and, you know, what role are they playing. And I think it's emphasized when you're dealing with a legacy.
- [10:53]
Simon Sinek
Well, I think. I think what you're touching on is every single one of us, at some point in our lives and sometimes multiple times, will struggle with our identities.
- [11:01]
Maria Shriver
Correct.
- [11:02]
Simon Sinek
And it's not unique to somebody who's grown up like you have. People will confuse their identities with their job title.
- [11:08]
Maria Shriver
Correct.
- [11:08]
Simon Sinek
I am a CEO or their. Or their career. I am a lawyer. Like, that's who I am. No, it's what you do. Right. Or it's the position you have. And I've seen it. You've seen it many times, which is very successful people, when they move on or they change jobs, they literally will suffer an identity crisis. Because for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, their whole identity has entwined with a job or a position that when that job or position no longer exists, it's depression or collapse or strange things start to happen.
- [11:38]
Maria Shriver
Yeah.
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Simon Sinek
And so, you know, but even beyond. I am a mother, I hear people say that. Tell me who you are. Well, I'm a mother or I'm a father, but even that's not an identity.
- [11:47]
Maria Shriver
I think society puts a lot of pressure on you to respond in that way. People ask you, like, I went to a party the other night with my daughter, and the first question to her every single time was, tell me what you do. Tell me what you do. What is your interest? What do you do? And not who you are and not even, like, what your name is. Tell me what you do. I think you know this book. I called it I Am Maria because I grew up being asked all the Time. Which Kennedy are you? That was just, you know, the question I got more than any single other question. Which Kennedy are you? Yeah, and I still get it today. Like if I'm walking through the airport or, you know, somebody will say, you're a Kennedy. Right? And I used to just be like, no, I'm not, I'm Maria. And they would be like, but you're a Kennedy, even as an adult. And now I just go, yeah, I'm a Kennedy. Yeah. It's like I'm in my 60s, right. So. But I think it's so I understand. So I often find people come up to me and say, I'm just this, that or the other. And I always try to say, well, what's your name? Yeah, who are you? Tell me about yourself. So that's why I wanted to call this I Am is very spiritual to me. It's a, it's kind of has a religious feeling to it, but it's owning your name. You know, your parents give you your name and it's claiming this is I am, this is who I am. It's claiming the identity we get to define.
- [13:12]
Simon Sinek
Right, right. Because our, our surnames are predefined for us and we're part of that legacy, whatever that is. Our jobs are not ours, you know, but our name, as you said, like, it's the only thing that really is, is us.
- [13:25]
Maria Shriver
Right. And it's claiming that over and over. Right? It's claiming I am this person. And then it's like, well, tell me, who is that person?
- [13:33]
Simon Sinek
So who is Maria? Without saying mother, you know, journalist, like.
- [13:38]
Maria Shriver
That'S been a lifetime to figure that out. And that's what this book is really about. Who is Maria? So, well, if I were, I am Maria. I'm a woman. I'm a monastic, spiritual, loving, kind, fun, funny, artistic, deep, I think wise, broken, scared, strong, vulnerable, 69 year old woman. I have had the joy to be able to have been a mother. And I am a mother. I have been a wife, I have been a daughter. I am a daughter, even though my parents are deceased. I am a sister, I'm an aunt. But these are all titles that, you know, kind of society puts on you. I try to be a loving, supportive family member. That means I'm an aunt, a sister, mom.
- [14:34]
Simon Sinek
I love the redirect, you know, when somebody says, so what do you do? Instead of making. Pushing back against the question. It's an honest question to simply say, let me tell you who I am.
- [14:45]
Maria Shriver
Right.
- [14:45]
Simon Sinek
Just to simply redirect.
- [14:46]
Maria Shriver
Yeah, redirect Exactly.
- [14:48]
Simon Sinek
And to say that list, that is how we feel and all of the things that go along with it, it's. I mean, I know you really well, but just to hear you say all those words together, it's arresting because we see ourselves in some of that, and we find connection in some of that. Some of these poems, reading them, which surprised me. It's how you talk. I didn't even connect that. But you speak in poems. You speak like this, like when you and I are having a conversation, even now, talking to you. You know, if I were to write some of these lines down, the repetition and some of the reinforcements, and tell me who you. I mean, it's. I'm. It's. I'm just like. If you read this, then you know what it's like to hang out.
- [15:29]
Maria Shriver
That's a great compliment.
- [15:31]
Simon Sinek
Because it is a good compliment.
- [15:32]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. This.
- [15:32]
Simon Sinek
It's a very real.
- [15:34]
Maria Shriver
Christina calls it reporter poetry. You know, that I sit, I'm reporting from the front lines. It's kind of. It's, you know, the first part of the book is reflections on life and kind of identity and trying to figure out what.
- [15:47]
Simon Sinek
But it's how you think.
- [15:48]
Maria Shriver
It's how I think. It's how I think, and it's giving a kind of framework to how I visualize and how I visualize my way forward. And it's a revelation to me to discover my own heartbreak and to find connection in other people's heartbreak. It's a revelation to me to discover my own loneliness and to find connection with other people with their loneliness. To talk about what does home mean? Where is home? To talk about healing and the strength that is required to actually heal, to heal patterns, to heal family dramas that have gone through generations. It, you know, this is not work that I thought of when I was a kid or a young woman as hard work or as successful work. And I now look at it as the most successful thing we can do.
- [16:42]
Simon Sinek
Did you have to learn to be vulnerable?
- [16:44]
Maria Shriver
Oh, yeah.
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Simon Sinek
Is it like the past five years, the past 10 years, the past 20? Like, I mean, it's. I know it's a journey, but, like, there has to been a point where something clicked.
- [16:57]
Maria Shriver
Well, I think certainly, you know, kind of my divorce, I think, you know, landed me on the floor, and I had to kind of go like, whoa, you know, what is this? And I want to get up from this, but I'm going to get up differently. And I think that has certainly set me off onto a different path. I think it really probably began way before that, with my mother's death.
- [17:21]
Simon Sinek
How old were you when she died?
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Maria Shriver
I was in my 50s, so she died. But that was something I had feared my whole life because she'd been sick a lot, but she was my anchor. She was my everything. And it was something that I thought, like, I'll never be able to survive my mother's death. When she died, it was a soul shifting experience for me. It was an identity shifting experience for me. And it was quickly followed by my father's death, by the end of my marriage, by finding a new home, and then a search for a new identity.
- [17:59]
Simon Sinek
That all happened within.
- [18:00]
Maria Shriver
It all happened within two years.
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Simon Sinek
Wow.
- [18:02]
Maria Shriver
And then, you know, then it's been all of these many years later. Yeah. My mother died two weeks later, my uncle died, two years later, my father died. And a couple months after that I got separated and I had been first lady. And that ended. So it was a rapid succession of really groundbreaking change underneath my feet. And I think for me to step back and go, okay, wait a second now. I need to emerge from this. I need to rise from this. I always talk about rising above the noise. I need to rise and I'm going to rise differently. I have to rise differently. I have to break through, as I write in the book, the denial that I had had since I was a child. I had to break through the identities that I had hid behind and that had given me cover, that had given me protection. And I now knew I was on my own, 100% on my own. So who was that person? She wasn't the first lady anymore. Was I still a journalist? I don't know who I going to be.
- [19:06]
Simon Sinek
People always talk about the importance of doing the work. I'm doing the work. That person, they need to do the work. You know, in relationships, I wish my partner would do the work. I'm helping them do the work. I'm so fascinated by the relationship of, quote, unquote, doing the work alone versus needing the support of others to do that. Is it possible to do the work alone of finding oneself?
- [19:24]
Maria Shriver
Well, I've been. I've done the work in community, I would say, because I had, as I wrote in the book, I write about kind of having a masterclass in friendship. People held my hand, they walked with me, they talked with me, they sat with me. But I went and did alone work with a therapist, with shamans, with journeys. I went away on my own, I went to a convent on my own. But I did the work or the silence in community. So I don't See that? I did it alone. I wasn't in a relationship doing it. But I don't think anybody really, quote, does it alone.
- [20:01]
Simon Sinek
Okay, I'll just say. I'll say it from a personal point of view. I know that I'm a better version of myself. I know that I'm more comfortable being vulnerable. I know that I am taking myself on and away because I wouldn't be able to get away with. Not because of our friendship. That's what I mean. And to be your friend means you sign up for all of it. There's the fun, there's the laughs, there's the family. But there's also the conversations about loneliness or adhd. They come out relatively effortlessly now.
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Maria Shriver
Yeah.
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Simon Sinek
In company, not alone.
- [20:35]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. At the end of the day, what? Jobs come and go, but if we work on our friendships, if we laugh with our friends, if we love our friends, if we show up for our friends, if we give them the eight minutes, in those moments of like, I need you on the phone, Are you there? Those are the things that are going to be with us till the end. That's what's important.
- [20:56]
Simon Sinek
And for those who may know of that video that I made where I talked about the eight minutes was you and me. It was you and me. That was our experience where I asked you how you were and you said, I'm better now. And I said, what do you mean you're better now? And you're like, I've had a horrible week. I'm like, why didn't you call me? And you're like, I did. And I look at my text and says, you. You there? What are you doing? What do you. I'm like, yeah, well, you. You were the one who read the article that said all a friend needs is eight minutes.
- [21:20]
Maria Shriver
And so now if we need each other, I, like, have eight minutes.
- [21:23]
Simon Sinek
We have eight. Do you have eight minutes? You were the og.
- [21:25]
Maria Shriver
Yeah.
- [21:25]
Simon Sinek
For that experience.
- [21:26]
Maria Shriver
You know, you were saying actually last night that you forget to call people, you forget to ch. That that happens with your parents. And I went to bed thinking, well, that's not my experience with you, actually. You do check in, you do call, you do go. Like, I'm driving by. I want to. You sometimes check in, and I walk in, and I haven't even invited you. You're like, in the pantry. And I'm like, simon, what are you doing? He's like, I came in to get a mosh bar. I came in again. I'm like, well, what? But you are like, that happened once.
- [21:59]
Simon Sinek
You Came downstairs and I was in the pantry. That isn't true.
- [22:02]
Maria Shriver
Yeah, that's what my kids all the time in the pantry. I was like, no, Simon's not here tonight. But I think that that's what makes my life so. Do you want to know the truth?
- [22:11]
Simon Sinek
Do you want to know the truth?
- [22:12]
Maria Shriver
My life joyful. Yeah.
- [22:13]
Simon Sinek
You and I actually don't talk on the phone that much.
- [22:15]
Maria Shriver
No, we text, but you don't ever pick up the phone. That cat picture comes up, and I call and there's a cat.
- [22:22]
Simon Sinek
It's because it's not personal. It's because my phone's always on. Do not disturb, but when I see you, call it always. But you and I. But the point is, like, we actually. Like when you and I are traveling, we actually don't talk that much. I think the thing is that the time when we have time together is so intense and so cherished that I don't think we realize that we actually don't talk so much in the gaps.
- [22:44]
Maria Shriver
Well, maybe I'm talking to you in my head, but I think, you know, I've watched it.
- [22:50]
Simon Sinek
If I'm getting credit for it, then continue with that.
- [22:52]
Maria Shriver
But, you know, what's amazing to me is I've watched you evolve. I've watched you from what to what? You've become way more open and vulnerable, and you've become way more open about how you feel. You know, before, you were talking a lot about business and showing up and leadership, and now you talk a lot more about emotions and friendships and family, things that are going on in your life, deep in your soul, in a different way. And that, to me, has been a beautiful evolution to watch in you. You'll talk about, like, I'm not really sure what I want to do now or what subject I want to speak about. People all want to come up to me and talk about one thing. You know, your version of the Kennedy thing is that everybody wants, you know, can you help me with my why? Can you help me with my why? And there's probably nobody saying, how are you? Just help me with my why? Can you fix that for me or find it for me or. And I see that with people, you know, in life that people get really well known for something or get really successful and that, you know, we. We lose sight of. Like, well, actually, how are you? Are you dealing with any heartbreak? Are you dealing with any loneliness? Do you have friends that can help you? And those are the conversations that I'm interested in. I'm interested in your heartbreak.
- [24:16]
Simon Sinek
This Is what it means to be your friend, which is you don't care. We've never talked about. We rarely talk about work. And you're only interested in me as a human being, which is probably one of the reasons it's nice to come over, which is everybody can just be themselves. It's the container you create to the point where your kids had no idea we were at with Christina. And she had no idea that I did work. Anything other than I was just somebody who came over.
- [24:44]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. Christopher was like, I didn't even know that Simon, like, had a book or did a thing that was so funny because. No, what was really funny is when we went to Special Olympics in Berlin.
- [24:56]
Simon Sinek
Berlin.
- [24:56]
Maria Shriver
And we went out. We were in a coffee shop with Simon.
- [25:00]
Simon Sinek
You mean Christina?
- [25:00]
Maria Shriver
Yeah, my daughter Christina. And people started coming up asking Simon for pictures. And we were like, what's going on? Why is everybody asking Simon for his picture? And he's like, I'm famous. You guys didn't say that.
- [25:16]
Simon Sinek
I didn't say that. Christina was genuinely confused.
- [25:20]
Maria Shriver
She was like, why does everybody want a picture with Simon? I mean, yeah, but it was really cute. I said, you should just, like, everybody should just walk around with Simon. And then everybody stops and wants to have a picture with Simon. But it was. That was really fun.
- [25:36]
Simon Sinek
You exaggerate, but I'll take it.
- [25:37]
Maria Shriver
Christopher was like, I didn't even know Simon, like, did anything. But this is the thing, which is.
- [25:42]
Simon Sinek
I'm invited into your home as me.
- [25:44]
Maria Shriver
As you, not as somebody who's done something.
- [25:46]
Simon Sinek
And that's the thing, which is this is Simon. He's my friend. Is how I get introduced to your kids.
- [25:51]
Maria Shriver
Exactly right.
- [25:52]
Simon Sinek
And so they set to get to know me as friend of their mom.
- [25:55]
Maria Shriver
Yeah.
- [25:55]
Simon Sinek
As opposed to somebody who did something.
- [25:57]
Maria Shriver
And now they're friends. They introduce you. This is my friend. Right.
- [26:00]
Simon Sinek
And I think that the thing that I'm walking away from here, which is this idea of creating the container, which is. I think we have fun with our friends.
- [26:08]
Maria Shriver
I love that way you put that. The container.
- [26:11]
Simon Sinek
The container, Yeah.
- [26:12]
Maria Shriver
I call it home.
- [26:14]
Simon Sinek
For me, creating a container actually requires work. And you touched upon it before, which is people prioritize work over their friends.
- [26:21]
Maria Shriver
Right.
- [26:21]
Simon Sinek
People think their relationships are sometimes more important than their friends. What I'm learning is that you can't get through this difficult thing called work without a friend. On the worst days, you better have a friend. And even your relationships, like, relationships sometimes are a struggle. And the way you get through relationships and arguments with your romantic partner is if you have a friend, the friend is the foundation of the success of all those other things. And if you don't have a friend who knows how to create safe containers for you to have those very uncomfortable, difficult conversations of insecurity, fear, self doubt, whether it's professional or personal, then the relationships, romantic relationships and work relationships are more likely to falter. There's so many, so much talk and so much written about how to be productive at work and how to have a successful marriage and how to find your partner of love. And yet we don't learn how to create a container for our friends to just relax and be themselves. And being your true self. I actually was thinking about this recently. The idea that we have fully authentic and fully our true selves in the outside world. And that's actually not allowed because if everybody was fully themselves all the time, sort of things wouldn't work because there's been no norms or standards. Like, if I go for a job interview and I'm an entry level, well, my true self is I'd like to dress like a surfer. It's how I feel. No, no, no, no. Show respect for the place, you're going to look a little nicer. You can add flourishes for sure. And nobody's telling you to suppress yourself. But the idea of being fully realized at every moment. There are standards and norms that make polite society work. But that's not to say you shouldn't have a safe space to let those things out. And those safe spaces are those safe containers with those friends. Just like, I don't want to be professional at home, I don't want to be fully personal at work, but I do need to do both. Does that make sense?
- [28:14]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. And I think there's so much emphasize in our culture about success at work that is the be all, end all. And I think that you're beginning to see people thinking about what actually is a successful life. What is a. I call it a meaningful life, a life worth living. Miroslav Volf calls it, you know, a life worth living. What will I look back on if I'm 80 or 90? What will be the verticals of a life well lived? And work has a place in there, but it's not your whole life. And so how do we cultivate friendships? How do we cultivate a life of faith, for example? For me, that was super important. How do we learn to communicate with our children as they become adults? I'm doing a whole different kind of mothering today than I did when I had toddlers or teenagers or College age children. Right now I'm in a different place and space. I'm creating a different container than I did when my kids were growing up. How, if I'm divorced, how do I create a container where both of my kids, parents can coexist, can exhibit love, can exhibit friendship, can make everybody feel at peace? That's my job now. How do I live a life where I feel when I'm on my deathbed that I look back and go, I worked out what I needed to work out. I healed what I needed to heal. I had all these experiences of joy and heartbreak and success and failure. And that's what a life offers to us. And I went for it in all those areas. That's what I'm interested in. That, to me, is success. You know, my friend Sean, he was telling me about a test that he did with his partner, his husband, and I said, can you do it with me? Because I don't have a partner, so I want to do it. He said, well, it's the same. It's the exact same thing. Just the only difference is one relationship involves a sexual relationship, but a friendship can ask the same questions. And the questions were, you know, what do you like about this relationship? What do you want me to do better? What do you notice about how I've grown? What do you notice about, you know, how I'm living my life? Here are five things you may not know about me. Tell me five things I don't know about you. Tell me what you're afraid of. And these things opened up a whole new area of conversation. So I try to do that sort of thing.
- [30:46]
Simon Sinek
That's so good. But I love this exercise of going through these questions that are. Again, we develop these systems to help romantic partners, but we don't develop these systems to help friends. And simply to have a card where you take the time to sit down with someone and say, let's do this. By the way, romantic couples do this. We do this in review sessions at work. We have feedback sessions at work where we learn about each other from a work context.
- [31:09]
Maria Shriver
Exactly.
- [31:10]
Simon Sinek
We don't do this as friends. We don't do the work of friendship.
- [31:13]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. So like your love language, it's. That's interesting to me as your friend. So why is it only that a romantic partner gets to ask, what's your love language? Or.
- [31:23]
Simon Sinek
And that it's a lot and it's allowed to change?
- [31:25]
Maria Shriver
Yes, it's allowed. Or, you know, there's that New York Times 36 questions. But it's for people who want to fall in love with the person. They're asking the question. But those questions are really cool to ask. Anybody fall in love with a friend.
- [31:37]
Simon Sinek
Yeah.
- [31:37]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. Fall in love with a friend. Or understand who. If you could have dinner with one person from history, who would it be? Like, why do you have to ask that to somebody you want to fall in love with? Why can't you just ask that to anybody?
- [31:49]
Simon Sinek
It goes back to that service component. Right. If you want that safe container, then offer it to someone first.
- [31:55]
Maria Shriver
Yeah.
- [31:55]
Simon Sinek
Like, if you want someone to be curious about you, then be curious about them first.
- [31:59]
Maria Shriver
Yeah. Well, curiosity is my. Not my superpower, but I've always, since I was little, been curious, which is why journalism was so great for me, because I'm always like, why? That was always my jam. My kids are always like, could you please not, you know, talk to the waiter all the time? Could you please not talk to the valet guy? Because now we're like, 20 minutes later. Could you please stop talking to the barista? But I find, you know, I find it so interesting to talk to the baristas to why she has blue hair. You know, Christopher, who my youngest son, you know, he's always like, just, I see that the woman has blue. Please do not ask her why she has blue hair. I go, well, people have blue hair want to be asked why they have blue hair. He goes, she does not. It's like, how do you know? You don't know. But anyway, it's like, because he's always like this. It's so funny because each kid is different. So when I'm with him, I try not to be curious, not to be as curious just because I can see he's as embarrassed as he could get by me sometimes.
- [33:05]
Simon Sinek
But I think this is the point, which is you have a curiosity about your friends that a lot of people have for strangers.
- [33:11]
Maria Shriver
For me, when I think about, like, what makes. You know, we talk so much about success, and we talk about presenting ourselves as success and all of these things. This is success.
- [33:22]
Simon Sinek
Yeah.
- [33:23]
Maria Shriver
Having time to spend with people that I love, that I adore, that make me feel home, you know, this book is really about making the way through heartbreak that is inevitable in everybody's life. Doing the work of healing that is a choice. And then finding your way back to home. Home. You know, you're home to me. I'm at home in me. Why does everybody tell us we're here to be on the COVID of Forbes? Why does everybody tell us we're here to be the CEO and have no time for our family or our friends. Why does the world tell us to run around like a lunatic and at the expense of everything that's important? Why does the world or society or our culture or the press tell us it's this when it's this?
- [34:14]
Simon Sinek
Yeah. We're all obsessed with productivity and metrics and measuring and sleep apps and.
- [34:18]
Maria Shriver
And this goes like that, right? I've been fired from a job. And then you're sitting there going, like, what? What? What? I thought that was my, quote, home. I remember when I was fired from the CBS Morning News. I was the anchor with Forrest Sawyer, and the president of the news division fired all of us overnight. And I was like, wait, what? And he's like, the show's gone. I'm moving it to the entertainment division, out of the news division. You all can go look for other jobs, and you can stay here if you want and go work in another division. I was just like, but this is my home. They're like, it's not your home. And I'm like, it's not. They're like, no. And I was like, oh. Oh, okay. Wow. I made a big mistake. I thought this job was my home. So I picked up my bags, walked out the revolving door at CBS News and said, I'm never coming home again. And then I walked down the street and went over to NBC News. Right. But I didn't make the same mistake at NBC News that I made at CBS News. I didn't think I was going to go and get a new home.
- [35:29]
Simon Sinek
Yeah.
- [35:29]
Maria Shriver
I thought I was going to get a new job. Hopefully I'd meet some people that could make me feel like I'd had. And I have. I've made relationships there outside of the building so that when they fire me or tell me, like, when I became first lady and they called me and said, you're out. And I'm like, wait a minute. What? They're like, you can't work here anymore if you have a husband who's a governor. It's a conflict of interest. Bye. Bye. I didn't have the same meltdown that I had when I was at cbs because I knew I wasn't being kicked out of my home. I was losing a job.
- [36:02]
Simon Sinek
And it goes back to identity again. Right. Because when we lose our jobs, we think they're taking away our identity.
- [36:07]
Maria Shriver
Well, they're taking away our finances. They're taking away stability. They're taking away identity. Oh, still. And they're taking away where you go every day. They're taking Away, routine, everything. And so it is. It's a lot to lose your job. When I was fired from cbs, I was stunned. But I made a mistake thinking that as I said that that was my home. So when I write on the COVID of this book, finding Our Way Home, I want to have a conversation about the home within the home that we create with our friends and our family and our loved ones. It's not a home that a job gives to us. It's a home we create.
- [36:47]
Simon Sinek
My reflections and poems on heartbreak, healing and finding your way home.
- [36:52]
Maria Shriver
Right?
- [36:52]
Simon Sinek
Yeah. Do you have a favorite poem in here?
- [36:55]
Maria Shriver
That's a good question. No, I. I think for me maybe small was. It's in the beginning. Is that I. I think another thing that society does to us is. Tells us you're small, you're big, You're a winner, you're a loser. Do you want to read it puts these. Okay.
- [37:14]
Simon Sinek
It's going to just sound like you speaking.
- [37:17]
Maria Shriver
I feel so small. I always have so small in a house where everything was so big, so small that I got lost. Did you notice that I was small? Did you notice I couldn't reach? Did you notice I was scared? No, of course you didn't. Your door was shut. Your eyes were closed. Your heart, I couldn't find it. Couldn't touch it, couldn't reach too. Was lost. Deeply buried in a dark place. I couldn't reach it. I tried all different ways to grow big. Big was what you noticed. Big was what you liked. Big was what I tried to be. I grew up, I grew out. I tried on big. But it never fit. Big was an illusion. Big enough was unattainable. I was too small to be big enough. There were so many bigs in my house. So I left. I found another place to try on Big. But I was small there too. I couldn't reach the lights. I couldn't touch what I wanted to touch. And so I gave up. I made peace with being small. I gave up trying to be big. I decided it hurt too much. I changed my mind about big. And when I did, I found your big heart in that small little room you hid in. My big heart loves your small little self. I wish you'd known how big you already were. When I read this, I think about my mom, who was so big to me, but she didn't realize how big she was because she was surrounded by brothers who society told her were bigger than her and who were so big. Jfk, rfk yeah, they were so big that everybody was looking up here so she couldn't see down here, right. And she couldn't see in here because she was trying to reach that, compete with that. When I think of my mother now, I have so much empathy for her and I have so much sadness, but really empathy for how hard she worked and how unseen she was and that I was not able to really talk to her about her heartbreak or her healing or her way home because she had never been granted the time to have those conversations. She was in such a hurry to be big that I've had those conversations with her now in death, actually, that she herself, you know, we all have this small little child inside of all of us. And so today I try to think about the little girl that lived in my mother, how small she was and how beautiful she was and what she was like as a little girl. And I say to her, I see you now, mommy. I see you and you're enough. You're so big to me. And I think I've learned in life is that people who are society, say, are so big so often don't feel that at all. I don't try to be big anymore and I don't try to be small. I just try to be. I am. Yeah.
- [40:35]
Simon Sinek
That book is a gift.
- [40:37]
Maria Shriver
Thank you.
- [40:37]
Simon Sinek
It's a gift to the world. It really is.
- [40:39]
Maria Shriver
Thank you.
- [40:40]
Simon Sinek
The questions you ask are deep. Not difficult, but deep.
- [40:44]
Maria Shriver
Right.
- [40:45]
Simon Sinek
People don't have to ask the questions of themselves because you will ask them of us.
- [40:48]
Devin
Yeah.
- [40:49]
Maria Shriver
And I'm hopeful that they will because I think so many people that I meet or some feel like something's quite not like it's supposed to be, I'm stuck, or whatever it is. And I think by asking yourself, reporting in a way on yourself, I love this thing, your mind. This is called be miracle minded. And your mind wages war on your tender little heart. You know that, don't you, child? Said the voice from afar. So instead, be miracle minded. Yes, miracle minded. I like the sound of that. But just how does that work? How does miracle minded feel inside the busy mind? And then just go going on like, thinking like, is your mind busy? How can you get it to be different? Have you ever thought of yourself as miracle minded? People come in, they're like, oh, my God, Maria. But then they come back and go, you know, I thought about being miracle.
- [41:52]
Simon Sinek
Thank you.
- [41:53]
Maria Shriver
Thank you.
- [41:54]
Simon Sinek
Joy. Delight.
- [41:57]
Maria Shriver
Delightful.
- [41:58]
Simon Sinek
Delightful.
- [41:58]
Maria Shriver
I'm delightful.
- [42:01]
Devin
Hey, all, it's Devin again. Before you go, we want to give our podcast listeners a special 30 off promo code at the Optimism Library on Simoncynic.com just use the code POD30 at checkout. That's POD30. Enjoy.
- [42:21]
Simon Sinek
If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website SimonSinek.com for classes, videos and more. Until then, take care of yourself. The production of the Optimism Company Company. It's produced and edited by Lindsay Garbinius, David Jha and Devin Johnson. Our executive producers are Henrietta Conrad and Greg Rudersham.