Why Being Right Is Costing You Trust | A Bit of Optimism: Feelings at Work | PART 4

Summary

Podcast Summary:

A Bit of Optimism — Why Being Right Is Costing You Trust

Host: Simon Sinek
Guest: Alex Simon, Founder of Life Shop
Date: August 4, 2026
Episode: Feelings at Work | PART 4

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives deep into accountability and apologies—why so many of us believe we're good at them, why getting them wrong erodes trust, and how learning to take true accountability (and apologize well) is foundational for trust, connection, and effective leadership at work and in life. Simon and Alex unpack emotional habits that are often ingrained in us since childhood and challenge the typical perceptions of blame, credit, and the power—and mechanics—of a real apology.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why We Struggle with Apologies & Accountability

• Children’s Apology Software:

  • Many of us rely on habits formed in childhood (“say sorry because you messed up, now move on”)—[02:14].
  • “A lot of us are running software we installed when we were five years old and we never updated.” —Simon Sinek [01:13]

• The Prevalence of “Non-Apologies”:

  • The phrase “I’m sorry you feel that way” is cited as a top example of a defensive, ineffective apology that deflects responsibility—[00:29].
  • “If you want a really quick and easy way to make my blood boil...say 'I’m sorry you feel that way.'” —Simon Sinek [00:29]

• Emotional Complexity & Resistance:

  • Admitting mistakes makes us feel vulnerable; no one likes to look bad or feel wrong—[03:55].
  • “No one wants to look dumb or bad or wrong.” —Simon Sinek [00:43]
  • “I used to have an apology formula...I’ve always taken apologies really, really seriously.” —Alex Simon [04:16]

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The True Nature of Accountability

• Intent vs. Impact:

  • Most conflict arises not from ill intent but from failing to recognize the negative impact of our actions and refusing to own it—[05:23].
  • “Saying you’re sorry doesn’t mean you’re wrong. All it means is you take accountability for the thing that you said or did.” —Simon Sinek [07:31]

• The Wheelie Bag Analogy:

  • “If you’re at the airport...your wheelie bag accidentally rolls over someone’s foot...you say sorry—not because you intended harm, but because it was your bag.” —Simon Sinek [07:49]

• Credit & Blame as Two Sides of the Same Coin:

  • People who hoard credit often dodge blame; both stem from insecurity and the need for self-preservation—[09:53].
  • “Blame is the opposite of accountability and it’s pointing to anything other than yourself.” —Simon Sinek [09:53]

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Learning to Be Wrong & Model Accountability

• Growth vs. Fixed Mindset:

  • Taking responsibility is strength, not weakness. Owning mistakes (with confidence) builds trust and credibility—[15:28].
  • “The confidence to own it is what makes somebody want to follow you. That makes you build trust.” —Simon Sinek [15:28]

• False vs. True Confidence:

  • Projected, defensive “strength” is brittle—the real strength is the ability to admit mistakes and learn—[16:28].
  • “True confidence is the ability to admit fallibility with confidence.” —Simon Sinek [17:13]

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What Makes a Good Apology?

Elements of a True Apology

• Specificity:

  • Apologize for the actual action and its specific impact, not with vague language or blanket statements—[27:58].
  • “The apology should be specific.” —Simon Sinek [29:25]
  • “I like to recognize, okay, literally, what did I do? And what is the impact that it had?” —Alex Simon [27:58]

• No Deflection:

  • Avoid “but,” “if,” or “I’m sorry you feel that way”—these negate ownership—[09:53], [28:40].
  • “I’m sorry, but you started it...I’m sorry, but I wouldn’t have said that if you didn’t say that first.” —Simon Sinek [10:43]

• Recognize Impact vs. Intention:

  • Apology should focus on how you made someone feel, not your intentions—[28:46].

• Micro-Apologies:

  • Practice mini-apologies in real time as minor mistakes occur (“Sorry, that came out wrong”)—[33:39].
  • “Micro repair is a really good one.” —Alex Simon [34:34]

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Apologizing as Catharsis — For Both Sides

• Why Apologize?

  • Genuine apologies not only heal the hurt party but relieve the giver’s own tension and guilt—[18:10], [23:37], [39:39].
  • “An apology is as much for you as it is for the other person.” —Simon Sinek [40:05]

• When Apologies Aren’t Received

  • A heartfelt apology doesn’t guarantee a positive response; if the other person refuses to accept, your role is still to own your side and move on—[20:27].
  • “If you need to apologize for yourself for your own catharsis...it did allow me to stop the narrative swirling around in my head.” —Simon Sinek [22:45]

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The Recipient’s Role & Repair

• Receiving an Apology:

  • Accepting an apology is a responsibility; it’s unhealthy to twist the knife or weaponize their vulnerability—[41:23].
  • “When an apology is good and heartfelt, you have to receive it. Rejecting it...is as irresponsible as failing to apologize.” —Simon Sinek [41:38]

• Looking Forward

  • Post-apology, focus on future behavior and growth, not punishing the past—[42:59].
  • “Change the lenses...from the rear view mirror to the windshield.” —Simon Sinek [42:59]

• Pairing Words with Behavior Change

  • Growth and repair are necessary; repeatedly apologizing for the same thing without changing erodes trust—[44:55].
  • “An apology is like college commencement. It’s not the end—it’s the beginning.” —Simon Sinek [44:43]

• Asking for Help with Repair

  • If you struggle to change, invite the other person to help create a plan and be patient, rather than just expecting you to fix the issue alone—[47:10].

• Acts of Repair

  • In addition to words, small gestures (cupcakes, notes, time, and effort) demonstrate the sincerity of the apology—[48:04].
  • “Time and effort are non-redeemable commodities...when someone gives you that, it feels richer.” —Simon Sinek [48:42]

• Tailor Apologies to Individuals

  • People want to be apologized to differently; checking in on what kind of apology (or repair) lands matters—[34:38].

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "[Apologies] are the tip of an iceberg that I just didn’t know how big this iceberg was. And I really think this is going to change my whole marriage." —Workshop Photographer [00:12], [50:30]
• "Saying you’re sorry doesn’t mean you’re wrong. All it means is you take accountability for the thing you said or did." —Simon Sinek [07:31]
• “If you get everything right, people will follow and trust me. Incorrect. The confidence to own it is what makes somebody want to follow you.” —Simon Sinek [15:28]
• “Blame is the opposite of accountability and it is pointing to anything other than yourself for why something went badly.” —Simon Sinek [09:53]
• “True strength is being able to admit, oh, this thing didn’t get it right. This is what I learned. Like, we’re still. Okay.” —Alex Simon [16:13]
• “One of the really uncomfortable things [about leadership] is you have to give away all the credit and take all the blame.” —Simon Sinek [24:04]
• “Microplastics in your soul.” —Alex Simon, describing unresolved guilt [40:05]
• “An apology is as much for you as it is for the other person and the situation.” —Simon Sinek [40:14]
• “An apology is like college commencement. It’s not the end of something. It’s the beginning of something.” —Simon Sinek [44:43]
• “Time and effort are non-redeemable commodities. When someone gives you that, it feels richer than someone giving you money.” —Simon Sinek [48:42]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:29 — The blood-boiling effect of “I’m sorry you feel that way”
• 04:16 — Alex’s apology formula, and the origin story of her sensitivity to apologies
• 07:49 — The “wheelie bag” airport analogy for unintended impact
• 09:53 — On blame and insecure leadership
• 15:28 — The importance of confidently owning mistakes to build trust
• 17:13 — The distinction between false and true confidence in leaders
• 23:37 — The relief and catharsis that comes with a real apology
• 27:58 — Building a rigid, specific apology formula; what works and what doesn’t
• 33:39 — Practicing micro-apologies in moments of error
• 40:05 — "Microplastics in your soul:" Emotional residue from unclaimed mistakes
• 41:23 — How to receive an apology and move past it
• 42:59 — The shift from rear-view mirror thinking to looking forward after an apology
• 44:43 — The apology as commencement: Repair and accountability must follow
• 48:42 — Why gestures of effort and time deepen the meaning of apologies

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Recap: Key Takeaways

• Most people overestimate their ability to apologize and take accountability, relying on obsolete childhood lessons.
• Real apologies require specific acknowledgment of action and impact—not just intent.
• Blame and excessive credit-taking derive from insecurity and damage team trust; true leaders model giving away credit and taking on blame.
• Apologizing authentically relieves tension for both the giver and receiver; it also creates space for growth and stronger relationships.
• Repair and changed behavior are essential—words alone aren’t enough.
• Receiving an apology gracefully is as vital as giving one.
• Practicing micro-apologies, giving time and effort, and learning how others wish to be apologized to all reinforce accountability skills.

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This episode eloquently demonstrates that updating our “accountability software” is not about grand gestures, but about small, specific, sincere ownership of impact, willing repair, and open communication—at work, at home, everywhere. As Simon puts it:

"I think an apology is the highest form of accountability." —Simon Sinek [00:00]

Transcript

[Simon Sinek]

I think an apology is the highest form of accountability.

[Alex Simon]

I teach a lot of workshops and I decided to teach one on apologizing. We had a photographer that day, he was just supposed to be taking pictures of the workshop. I say something like, oh, does anyone have anything they want to say? And he raises his hand and he's like, I had no idea. I had no idea that I needed to learn how to apologize. But apologies are the tip of an iceberg that I just, I didn't know how big this iceberg was. And I really think this is going to change my whole marriage. It's one of these things that almost no one thinks that they need to work on.

[Simon Sinek]

I think we all think we know how to do it.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Because we've done it. Okay, hot take. If you want a really quick and easy way to make my blood boil the next time I sincerely share how I feel because of something you said or did, say I'm sorry you feel that way. This is on the top of my list of non apologies or deflections that so many people offer when confronted with negative impact from their words or actions. No one wants to look dumb or bad or wrong. No one wants to be told that we did something that caused pain to someone or did damage at work. And so we point fingers, offer excuses, and use words that take the spotlight off us. So let's start with our first accountability lesson. Let's all admit we have done one or all of these things, and that's okay. There are some very simple ways we can get comfortable with accountability and know how to express it in ways that strengthens trust. Instead of taking a summer hiatus, we're presenting a special five episode series of a bit of optimism to go deep on human skills, those things that help us connect, collaborate and succeed in any human relationship. That's why I invited Alex Simon, founder of Life Shop, where she teaches emotional intelligence, to join me. And over these five episodes, we will tackle some of the messier human interactions, like having hard conversations, people pleasing, listening and giving feedback. And this one, taking accountability. Now, when you hear accountability, you may be thinking KPIs or scorecards. That's not what I'm talking about. This is about knowing how to confidently own it when we mess up. There are three big ideas we're going to explore in this episode. First, there's a reason our apologies don't land. And it's not because our intent was off or the other person is unreasonable. It's because a lot of us are running software we installed when we were Five years old and we never updated. We discuss why accountability is so hard and how to reprogram our approach. Next, if you've ever sat in a meeting and watched someone present your idea as theirs, and then watched as that same person dodged responsibility when things went sideways, you're about to understand why. We uncover why taking credit and blame actually come from the same place deep inside our psyche and how we can resolve it. And finally, we're going to talk about what a real apology actually does. Not just for the person receiving it, but for the person giving it. And something happens in the middle of that discussion that I did not expect that. And it changed the way I feel about saying sorry. And I'll add just one more thing. This episode actually comes with a warning that by the end, you may have the urge to call someone about that thing that you've been trying to avoid owning up to. And if you enjoy this episode also, please remember to subscribe. This is a bit of optimism. Let's talk about a very difficult topic, a sensitive topic, dare I say.

[Alex Simon]

Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

Especially when it comes to something like saying sorry. It's amazing how people don't know how to do it.

[Alex Simon]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

And how not knowing how to apologize or doing it in a way that you think is self preserving actually can inflame a situation at worst and at best damage trust.

[Alex Simon]

I really agree. And for me, the apology is kind of how I got started on all of this in my life.

[Simon Sinek]

I did not know this.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Saying sorry is your origin story. Okay.

[Alex Simon]

Because when I was growing up, I had a parent who I will not name which parent, just in case they both listen to this.

[Simon Sinek]

I'm gonna guess it's either your mom or your dad, but we won't say which one.

[Alex Simon]

One of my parents really struggled to take accountability and they pretty much didn't apologize for anything my whole life, which is tricky because parents make mistakes because they are human. And so I've been really sensitive to apologies my whole life. I used to have an apology formula and my sister and I, when we would get in fights, I'd be like, you have to apologize in this way. And she would say, this is too rigid. And it probably was too rigid. But I've always taken apologies really, really seriously. And maybe four years ago, I got in a fight with my boyfriend at the time, and he said a classic apology, which is I'm sorry that you feel that way. I had explained to him the rigid formula of apologizing many times, and he said it and I just kind of lost it. And at the beginning, I was angry because I felt like, oh, you know, you haven't listened to this thing that I have said is important to me. And then I also felt a lot of compassion. I mean, I taught you how to apologize, but no one generally teaches people how to apologize. And so we expect that other people know how to take accountability for the. We expect that people know how to repair and how to move on and how to actually reconnect after things have gone south. But, like, really, it's something that no one teaches.

[Simon Sinek]

It's so complex emotionally. And when somebody says, I'm sorry, you feel that way instantly, like there's a little switch that makes me into a bit of an asshole.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And I know what's happened because it's happened multiple times, because many people say, I'm sorry you feel that way. And my stock instant response is, you cannot apologize for how I feel. You can only apologize for the thing that you did that made me feel this way. And this is what people don't understand when they're the ones who have to do the apologizing. It's catharsis for the person who's being apologized to. I had a fight with a friend, made an argument. I was sensitive about something. I don't know what, and something, something. And I said, you know, this thing that you did, you know, made it upset me, you know. And she goes, well, it shouldn't. I'm like, but it did, you know. She goes, well, I didn't mean it. I'm like, I know you didn't, but I still feel this way because you did that. And she goes, well, I shouldn't have to apologize. And I'm like, but you did that. And I feel this way. And we're talking about accountability. And she just couldn't go there. She absolutely refused. And it's getting more and more heated. She's getting frustrated. I'm getting frustrated. And I said, I can make this stop immediately if you want this to stop immediately. She goes, yes, I would like this to stop immediately. I said, it's very simple. Just copy what I'm going to tell you. Just say, I'm sorry. She says, I'm sorry. I said, thank you. I'm good. And this is what I find amazing, which is when somebody gives a heartfelt sorry because it's really hard to say I'm sorry. It's very hard to say, right? And I was fine. I literally, all of the stress, all the tension went away. Even telling her what to say to me, that she would say It. The catharsis worked, and I was good, and the whole thing diffused. And it was a lesson for her. She goes, I never realized that. I thought the apology was me sort of admitting that I'm at fault. And I'm like, no, it's just taking accountability for the piece. And this is one of the great lessons I've learned about saying sorry, which is, saying you're sorry doesn't mean you're wrong. All it means is you take accountability for the thing that you said or did. That's all it means. And my analogy that I love to use, if you're at the airport and you're walking through the airport with your wheelie bag, your wheelie bag accidentally rolls over someone's foot. You turn to look at them, they look at you, and you say, what? And they go say sorry. Like, no, you ran out of my foot. I didn't mean to.

[Alex Simon]

That's a really good analogy.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, but we always say sorry. Do you know why we say sorry? Because it's our wheelie bag. Yes, we did not intend to run over someone's foot, but it is our wheelie bag. And so when you run over someone's, you immediately turn around and say, I'm so sorry. And they're like, don't worry about it. Right? That's how accountability works, which is, even if you didn't intend it, it's still your words, it's still your actions, it's still your wiggly bag. Just take accountability for those things and we're good. Nobody's looking for right or wrong. We're looking for accountability for words or actions. That's all it means. So apologies are one part of accountability. Let's talk about credit, okay? There are people who take credit for everything. They think it helps make them look good and make them impressive. And I've seen this happen. I was literally in a meeting where there was a discussion. And let's say person B had an amazing idea. In the meeting, okay? We all agreed that was an amazing idea. We then went to the second meeting. And then the second meeting, person A was like, so I had this idea, and I'm looking at person B, and we're like, wtf, right? We're like, first of all, not that person's idea. Like, I heard you say it. And second of all, at best, or at worst, rather just say, we had an idea because we were all in the room. But, like, I listen to this person go, I had an idea, and then tells everybody the idea, and everybody's like, that's a great idea. It was an amazing thing to which this person take excessive and too much amount of credit and not very good at sharing it. The accumulation of it. It was a flag. And I started paying attention. I didn't say anything, I just started paying attention. And then I also noticed something that I think goes along with people who take too much credit is when things go wrong, it's never their fault. And I think blame and not knowing how to take credit properly are bedfellows. And the reason is because I think the root of both of them is the same.

[Alex Simon]

It's like diffusing responsibility into someone else when things go south and when things go right, you're taking it all right. Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Right. And I think they're born out of the same thing, which is insecurity. Blame is the opposite of accountability and it is pointing to anything other than yourself for why something went badly. You can blame another person, you can blame circumstances, you can blame the weather, you can blame whatever you want. Those things often show up in bad apologies. I'm sorry I was late, but there was traffic. True, right. And I know why people do it. It's because it has the appearance of accountability, but it sort of waters it down a little bit. I'm sorry I was late, but there was traffic is different than I'm sorry I was late. The traffic, you can still get it in there. But you and I both know this the minute you say the word but like literally it negates the thing that that's actually what the word but does. It negates everything that for it. I'm sorry, but you started it. Yeah, I'm sorry, but I wouldn't have said that if you didn't say that first.

[Alex Simon]

And I feel like this is so the water that we're swimming in that we don't even notice that this is our first reaction. Like something happens. And at least for me, my first reaction is to find someone to blame in my head. And I have to actively stop myself from doing that, by the way.

[Simon Sinek]

I think that's normal.

[Alex Simon]

I think it's super normal.

[Simon Sinek]

I think we all do because it doesn't feel good to be wrong or hurt someone or make a bad decision or whatever it is. It doesn't feel good. It's much easier to blame the weather, to blame another person.

[Alex Simon]

And I just think it's the culture that we're in. And so we live in like a very blame forward culture, which is just tragic, but it's also part of our. And it's part of Our experience.

[Simon Sinek]

And it's equally unhealthy to always blame yourself.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Because sometimes it is other things. I'll tell you my favorite accountability story. You see this a lot in, like, people in finance. I wonder why that when everything goes right, like, when they, like, make tons of money and they're like 20% portfolio growth. Right. It's because they're geniuses. I achieve 20% growth. Right. But if the portfolio loses 20%, it's always the market conditions.

[Alex Simon]

The market conditions, of course.

[Simon Sinek]

Right. It's always the market conditions. Like the portfolio lost 20% this year. But it's easy to understand if you understand the conditions of the market this season. The funny thing is, I don't mind either logic. But you can't mix your logics. Right. You can either be the genius. I'm fine with that. But. But then when things go down, then you're the idiot. That would be correct. That would be linear logic. Or you can either be the luckiest bastard in the world because it's going up and just really unlucky because it went down. Right. You can't mix your logics. But what it is, is I like to take credit, and I don't like to take responsibility. So, Alex, we've talked a little bit about blame, saying sorry, credit. What is the root. What is getting in the way of why people do blame? Why people can't say sorry, don't know how to apologize, and don't know how to effectively take credit or give credit.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah. It's so unbelievably hard. First of all, I think we don't really know. We're never really taught how, and we're not really modeled how because of this culture that we're in.

[Simon Sinek]

So one is skills.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah, one is skills. I think when we're kids, you're taught, like, I'm sorry. It's like, thank you. It's like, take this thing. Say thank you. It's like, you mess this up. Say. Say you're sorry. Say you're sorry. And then you're like, I'm sorry. And that's kind of a complete sentence. And so then as adults, we both. That's the problem. We're saying I'm sorry all the time with the wheelie bag.

[Simon Sinek]

Right.

[Alex Simon]

But then, like, when it actually comes down to it, we don't know how do I actually take responsibility for something?

[Simon Sinek]

I think when people take accountability, they think it's a sign of weakness.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

I think they confuse taking accountability and being wrong.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah. And we have such an intense fear

[Simon Sinek]

Nobody wants to be wrong.

[Alex Simon]

Although I think just on the subject of being wrong, just like we've talked about everything else, just like, getting constructive feedback is something that at the beginning is really uncomfortable, but then once you get used to it, you kind of crave it. I think the ability to be wrong is also something that you can kind of, in an awesome way, build the muscle of. And then all of a sudden, you want to be learning and be figuring out, okay, where am I wrong? How can I be updating my perspective on something?

[Simon Sinek]

And this goes back to that funny skill, which is, I don't think people know how to be wrong. Yeah, most people think of wrong as empirical. Like, it's a math formula, right? That here's the answer. You either are right or you are wrong. It is empirical, right? But in many things, that's sometimes true, sometimes it is empirical, you know, and there is right and wrong. But. But very often it's subjective. And so when I say people don't know how to be wrong, I'll give you an example. I made a call. It was the wrong call, and it had a negative impact on the company, the team, the revenue, whatever. Right? And everybody knows it because I made the decision. And I could say, well, that was the best. You know, like, I could sort of, like, go around it and be like, well, how was I supposed to know? Or I'm just trying to do the best I can, right? Which are all deflections of accountability. And so let's say I'm like, all right, I'm going to take accountability and I'm going to admit that I was wrong. Right? There's a couple ways to do it, and people get it wrong when we say only empirically, this is what people think, Right? Hey, that decision. I was wrong, and I should have asked for more advice. I was too quick. And yeah, I'm sorry, I was wrong. And that's what most people think when they talk about admitting you're wrong. They think that tone of voice, which is defeatist, it's weak, it's humiliating. When you have a growth mindset and you recognize that you have inherent value and that sometimes you make mistakes, saying you're wrong can come out completely differently. For example, so that decision, I was completely wrong. I should have asked for more advice. I made the decision too quickly. And yep, I.

[Alex Simon]

And here's what I learned from it.

[Simon Sinek]

And I completely made the wrong decision. And owning the accountability versus fearing the accountability, that is what makes people follow you.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

It's not that you get things right. And this is what people get wrong, which is they think that if I get everything right, I'm a credible leader. If I get everything right, people will follow me and trust me. Incorrect. Because everybody knows that you're not perfect and nobody is. And everybody knows when you made a mistake. Like, everybody knows and owning it. The confidence to own it is what makes somebody want to follow you. That makes you build trust. And it's not humiliating.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

It is a growth mindset and sets an incredible tone for any team, whether you're the leader or not.

[Alex Simon]

We think that we need to be strong in this kind of, like, puffed up chest, like, I'm not making mistakes way, when actually it's like, that's actually a really brittle sign of strength. And true strength is what I'm hearing from what you're saying is being able to admit, oh, this thing didn't get it right. This is what I learned. Like, we're still. Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

You're making a nuanced observation that I think is worth just under. Underlining for just a second, which is people puff up and act strong to promote themselves or their position, whatever it is, and project confidence. And they think projecting confidence is being bombastic and giving excuses and proving that I'm infallible. Right. But what they're recognizing is that is false confidence. It is theatrical confidence, the kind of confidence you play, you know, when you're playing that character. True confidence. It is, you know, better posture and holding up, and it visually looks the same, but for the fact that true confidence is the ability to admit fallibility with confidence.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Superficially, they look very similar, which is why I think people opt for one and not the other. And the puffing up is easier and the other one is more difficult. Because the irony is they think it comes with risk and it actually doesn't.

[Alex Simon]

I love the focus on how it gives catharsis to the person receiving the apology. I also personally think it gives catharsis to the person giving the apology. Like, for me, I've noticed when I mess something up, it's still my first instinct to be defensive, to kind of steal myself off, to try to figure out why this thing wasn't my fault. Like, those are still my instincts. And then the second I'm able to eke out, I'm sorry, even if at the beginning I'm kind of saying it through gritted teeth. I feel like it opens the door for me to actually express my feeling, which often is, like, genuine remorse that I'm kind of protecting myself from. From a lot of the time. But, like, once I say the words, then something relieves, gets relieved in my system. There's also catharsis for me. And then it opens the door of like, oh, what are the things that I can take accountability for?

[Simon Sinek]

It does relieve tension. Right. If you go back to the wheelie bag example. Right. A failure to say sorry. That will escalate.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

You know, saying sorry de. Escalates.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah. It connects. Also, I feel like. And for me, I think often I don't want to apologize first. Not because I don't feel bad and because I can't see the part that I can, but because I have a fear almost that if I apologize first, if I take responsibility for my piece first, that means somehow that I will have lost the fight and I will be wrong and then I will lose. I will basically be forfeiting the opportunity for them to recognize how they also hurt me or how their actions also impacted me.

[Simon Sinek]

What's so interesting about knowing how to apologize is it models behavior.

[Alex Simon]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

That when one person does it and does it effectively, it very often, I'd say more often than not, creates an environment for the other person to just take a deep breath, let the stress go down, and also take accountability. And very often we think that if you say you're sorry first, it means the admission of guilt or that you're wrong or that you caused it. It doesn't. It just means you're the first person to take accountability for your share in whatever happened. Maybe they did start something, but your reaction wasn't great. You can say sorry for that, which creates the conditions for everybody to take accountability. If we go back to what a leader is, we call you leader not because you are at the top of the organization. We call you leader because you went first. You literally led the way. And so I would argue that anybody who chooses to lead a leadership lifestyle will model behavior, whether they have position of rank or authority or not. And by leading the way and saying the. Taking accountability for your. Whatever your part is, even if it was the second part, you're creating a safe space for somebody who struggles with apologies to then say sorry. And it almost always works. I have a horrible one where it didn't, where somebody really did wrong me, and they really were out of line. My reaction, my initial reaction wasn't great, but after that, it was just very difficult situation that created massive amounts of tension, and I could never get an apology or an accountability for this person. The relationship was destroyed. And so I decided, in an effort to repair the relationship, that I would go first. And so I met up with this person and I said, you know, we both know what happened, and I just want to say that I'm sorry for the way I reacted. It's not the way I like to show up. And I'm sorry that I spoke to you that way. And he looked at me. Good.

[Alex Simon]

No.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Alex Simon]

He didn't say anything about nothing.

[Simon Sinek]

He just stared at me. And I know going in that taking accountability, you should never expect it. Right. Like, you should never do it for that reason. You take accountability because it's, you know, the other person was like, I'm sorry I put my foot in front of your bag, you know?

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Like, you don't do it for the other person. It's not to instigate something you. It's. It should be genuine. And maybe that's my mistake. Maybe I did do it with the hope that it would pave the way for him.

[Alex Simon]

Was that your thinking?

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And. And maybe there was some sort of. Well, I'll. I'll be the leader. I'll be the good one here, and let's see what happens. Right. But I. I gave the benefit of the doubt. Right. And maybe that was my mistake and I apologize for my share. And he literally just looked at me, went, okay, good. And I was like, that's it. I was like, you know, he's like, what? I was like, is there anything you want to add? He's like, no.

[Alex Simon]

Really?

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah. Needless to say, that was the last time I ever saw him.

[Alex Simon]

No.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah. I got up and walked away. I was like, this is clearly somebody I can't do business with because there is an absolute refusal to share in the accountability for the situation that has been created. How can I ever work with this person ever again? I literally got up and walked away. I said, all right, I think we're done then. I'm sorry it went this way. And I walked away. And I. I think that's the only time I've ever done that in my life. Just got up and walked away because it had literally reached a point where there was nothing I could do. It was over. I. I gave what, in retrospect, my mistake was maybe I was being self righteous by thinking, I'll be the good one and take the. And take the apology first. I was scraping the barrel to look for something, you know, that I did wrong.

[Alex Simon]

Like this one minute, this.

[Simon Sinek]

So there's one thing that I said, you know, like, but I had hoped that creating the environment. But I think what had happened there is the relationship was already over, and I'm like, what am I doing? You know? And maybe. And maybe I did it for my own. For me, like, I needed to exorcise the demons and get the narrative stop rolling around in my head. And in this case, maybe I said the asari more for me than for the situation.

[Alex Simon]

And I also think that that makes sense. Sometimes you need to do you need to own all of your parts as much as you can. That way you can know, well, at least I did everything.

[Simon Sinek]

And I do. I think it did exercise a lot of demons for me because I'm like, I owned my part of it and I'm good.

[Alex Simon]

And there's relief in that, I think.

[Simon Sinek]

But now what I think is really interesting, and this is what I'm learning in this conversation as we're having it, is if you need to apologize for yourself for your own catharsis, because we said, yes, the person you apologize to gets catharsis, but the person who gives the apology can find catharsis, too. It did allow me to stop the narrative swirling around in my head, and the anger and the blame that was swirling around in my head, like, he did this to me and sleepless nights and all of this stuff, and me just sort of owning my little bit and doing the right thing and putting it on the table and allowing that person I actually was. I was okay.

[Alex Simon]

And that's. Even as you were telling the story, I was thinking about however many years have passed since this happened, like, for me, when I know that I did something that I regret doing and I don't take accountability for it, the way that. That, like, continues to fester in my being is so shitty.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, because you know.

[Alex Simon]

Because you know. And then you both know that you did it. And then you also are in a place of really intense cognitive dissonance because you're also trying to. Trying to convince yourself that it's not your fault and it's someone else's fault. But then on a deeper level, you kind of know, I still have things that I have, I don't think I've fully taken accountability for. And, like, that's a really painful thing. It's like trying to convince myself of a narrative that, like, a different part of me knows that I don't believe. And I. The owning of it is the catharsis also for yourself.

[Simon Sinek]

And the pin on credit and blame I want to put in is, I think, as I said, they're bedfellows. And we've talked about negative examples, people who blame too much, people who take credit too much, it's hard to trust them, especially when you start to figure it out. One of the best leaders I know, he's a leader that I admire. I try to model myself after. He is astonishing. And I talk about this all the time, which is one of the really shitty things about being a leader and the choice to live the leadership lifestyle. One of the really uncomfortable things is you have to give away all the credit and take all the blame. Like, when things go wrong, it's on you because you're the leader. And when things go right, it's because everybody else. Right. That's just how it works. And I've seen it modeled by this guy I know who is astonishing. And if you pay him any compliment, it's amazing what you accomplished. He'd be like, it was. It was my team. It was them. I played a bit role. And they're like, no, man. It's like, yeah, I mean, sure, but you got to see this team I've got. They are amazing.

[Alex Simon]

Is it genuine?

[Simon Sinek]

It is 100% genuine. He oozes with gratitude for the people who sacrifice to serve him. And then I've seen the opposite. When things go sideways, he goes, the buck stops here. The buck stops here. Maybe I should have intervened more. Maybe I should have checked in more often. Maybe I should have given better direction. But at the end of the day, the reason went wrong. If you want to look for somebody to blame, you blame me. And the result is he has credibility through the roof. People will die for him. You know, people will change career paths to be with him. And everybody, from very senior people to the most junior people, worship him. He is so respected and he's so humble. The way he goes through life and the reason he reeks of humility. Just a quick aside. My favorite definition of humility is by Bob Gaylor, who's the former Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force. He said, don't confuse humility with meekness. He said, humility is being open to the ideas of others, which I love. And it's not. Ah, shucks, that's not. That's meekness. Humility is like. That's a great idea. Your idea is better than mine. And the ability to give credit is humble.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And this leader, he's insanely senior and insanely powerful. And he goes through life with deep, unfettered gratitude to those who give and work hard. He goes through life accepting that it's on his shoulders. And he also maintains high standards. So when somebody screws up, he will Tell you when something goes horribly wrong and someone's irresponsible, he will tell you. So I don't want people to confuse that. Giving credit and taking blame means that you let go standards. He does not. And it's an amazing thing to witness.

[Alex Simon]

It sounds incredible. Yeah, it sounds really inspiring. And it also sounds like it has, like, a cascading effect.

[Simon Sinek]

It makes everybody wants to be a better leader around him.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And it creates conditions of everybody to give credit and take blame. He's surrounded by people like, no, boss, I did that. He's like, I should have been there to help you more. He's like, no, no, no, I did it, boss. No, I'll fix it, boss. You know,

[Alex Simon]

I feel like that is the paradox of accountability, though, is like, when someone takes their part of accountability, it feels like you're gonna lose, but then actually, it inspires other people to take accountability for their part, too, when it's done genuinely and not.

[Simon Sinek]

And it makes for a great team because everybody takes accountability, and it is ideally by the leader.

[Alex Simon]

And I also think we're talking about it as if it's very simple, but this is. I find it. It's so hard.

[Simon Sinek]

No, no, no.

[Alex Simon]

It's very so hard.

[Simon Sinek]

Like, any professional. Like a professional baseball player makes it look easy. That's one of the arts of being great at what you do, is you make it look easy.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah, but it's so. All of these things are so simple but not easy.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay, let's talk about apologies, because that's the elephant in the room that really is.

[Alex Simon]

How do we actually do it?

[Simon Sinek]

How does one actually apologize? Okay, let us hear. Please, please share your rigid apology formula.

[Alex Simon]

The first thing that I think about is recognition of what happened in a specific way. This, to me, is maybe the most important thing is often when we apologize, for me, just saying the words I'm sorry doesn't do anything. The things we know don't work. I'm sorry. Just for me, I'm sorry, period, doesn't really do that much. It feels like a script. I'm sorry, but we talked about this. Like, that negates it. I'm sorry that you feel that way. These are, like, the three, like, definitely don'ts. I think the alternative is to recognize both what happened and also the impact on the other person. And so this avoids the, like, vague, like, I'm, I'm sorry. You know, they're like, I'm sorry that you're hurt. Or, like, there's this kind of, like, these big statements that don't for me don't actually land with anything. It's like, well, but what are you sorry for?

[Simon Sinek]

They're more attempts to try and end the fight or in the tension, rather than take actual accountability.

[Alex Simon]

When it comes to recognizing with specificity, I'm like, I like to recognize, okay, literally, what did I do? And what is the impact that it had. For example, it could be like, I'm really sorry that I canceled last minute. And I imagine that it made you feel like you were in a priority. And I really want to own that that is how it could have impacted you. And so it's not just like, I'm sorry for what happened. That's another one that I think is a big don't, or I'm sorry. I'm sorry for what I did. It's like, okay, well, what did you do? What did you do? And have you taken the time to empathetically imagine how did that make me feel? And that to me, those two prongs of, like, recognition of what happened, of my piece of what happened, and also the impact that it had on me. That's a really beautiful combination.

[Simon Sinek]

I 100%. I 100% agree that the apology should be specific. I'm sorry that things happened.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah, right. Okay. Okay.

[Simon Sinek]

I'm sorry I showed up late to your party. I'm sorry I dropped the ball on the project that you assigned to me. Those are great. Those are specific. I'm sorry I didn't communicate sooner when things went wrong and then things got out of hand. And when you talk about impact, it doesn't necessarily have to be feelings. And I know I let my team down right then. I completely agree with the apology. I think that is very effective and very powerful. In fact, even saying it hypothetically now, I'm like, that's a good apology.

[Alex Simon]

I also felt that I was like, wow, thank you. Thank you. I feel.

[Simon Sinek]

Thank you. I feel better.

[Alex Simon]

You know what? It's okay.

[Simon Sinek]

We will get through it and we won't let it happen again.

[Alex Simon]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

Where it goes sideways, which is you have to actually know what you did, and you actually have to know what the implications were, because I've had somebody guess and they guessed wrong. The actual impact it is. I can't believe you missed the deadline. Well, I mean. What do you mean I missed the deadline? Do you have any idea the impact that it had on everybody else? Well, what impacted everybody else? They were waiting for you, and you just disappeared and turned off your email and didn't answer your phone, and we didn't know what the hell was going on. And now we're all waiting for this thing from you. Well, I'm sorry. You know that's not gonna work. It's like, oh, my God, I didn't realize. I am so sorry that I was unavailable when you were relying on me and that I let the team down because, you know, and the idea of guessing is not an apology. It devalues the formula we're giving.

[Alex Simon]

I agree. And I think it depends on how you guess. I think guessing is really important. As long as you leave space to be corrected, that's important. When I guess, I guess about how the impact that it had on someone. And then I kind of ended on a question mark to be like, is that right?

[Simon Sinek]

Let's finish your scenario. You said, I apologize for showing up late.

[Alex Simon]

I imagine that it made you feel like you weren't being prioritized and that your time was being wasted.

[Simon Sinek]

No, that's not it at all. I would say.

[Alex Simon]

And then I'd be like, oh, okay,

[Simon Sinek]

that's not it at all. Because now I'm recognizing you're apologizing for the wrong thing. Right?

[Alex Simon]

Yeah. I'm like, no, it's not that. It's this thing.

[Simon Sinek]

It's not that. Is that I was so excited for all my friends to meet you, and then you just didn't show up, and it was humiliating.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah. And so then it's like, okay, cool, now I have the information I need if I take my ego out of it. And it's not like, oh, I need to know exactly what I'm guessing and, like, what the other person is feeling. But I'm more like on a. I'm like on a curiosity mission, so I can understand where the person is coming from. It goes to what we were saying, what we talked about in our hard conversations episode of, like, hard conversations are a chance for us to mutually understand. So if I make a guess and it's wrong, great. Now I have the information that I actually need, which is, oh, you're excited. You want me to be there because I'm important to you. So it's not you feeling deprioritized by me. It's that you want to, whatever, increase our connection by introducing me to your friends or whatever.

[Simon Sinek]

So let's summarize. A good apology is not I'm sorry. But, yeah, it's not. Whatever. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that happened.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah, you know, it's not I'm sorry that you feel that way.

[Simon Sinek]

Sorry. Oh, my God. The worst. I'm sorry you feel that way. None of those are actual apologies. They're all deflections or diffusions.

[Alex Simon]

Right.

[Simon Sinek]

A real apology is specific based on words said or actions performed or not. Not said or not performed. And recognition of what happened.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

The impact that I had, the recognition of the impact. That's a good apology.

[Alex Simon]

And that the impact can be different from my intentions.

[Simon Sinek]

Like, I didn't intend for my wheelie bag to run over your foot. Yeah, but it did.

[Alex Simon]

But it did.

[Simon Sinek]

And I am sorry. The reason I'm okay with the I'm sorry is because I think the specificity is sometimes understood in the situation. And I'll use my wheelie bag example again. When I run over someone's foot with my wheelie bag and turn around and I say, I am so sorry, it is very clear that I am apologizing for my bag running over their foot. I don't have to say, I am so sorry that my bag ran over your foot. That must really hurt your toes. It's a little much.

[Alex Simon]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

When I was fighting with my friend, it was very clear what we were fighting about. And it was very clear the impact that it had. It was a wheelie bag situation. Like there was no room for uncertainty.

[Alex Simon]

And maybe that works for you. For me it wouldn't.

[Simon Sinek]

So if somebody runs over your foot

[Alex Simon]

of the wheelie bag in obvious low grade scenarios, obviously I don't need that. But in emotionally complex scenarios, for me, the specificity is what brings the catharsis.

[Simon Sinek]

Okay.

[Alex Simon]

One of my favorite tricks for accountability is to practice like a micro accountability.

[Simon Sinek]

I'm sorry.

[Alex Simon]

Because sometimes apologies don't need to be this big thing. We don't need to wait until things escalate and accumulate. And so if we just say something small that we regret, you can just own it in the moment. Like actually, sorry, that came out wrong. What I actually meant is this thing and what that does is it kind of stops the defensiveness from accumulating, which then makes it harder and harder.

[Simon Sinek]

Right. I misspoke. And saying I'm sorry, I misspoke. That's really interesting because again, it's accountability for the misstatement. We all make misstatements. But apologizing for the misstatement rather than brushing over it or just acknowledging it allows for the person on the receiving end to get past that misstatement and actually let it go quicker rather than

[Alex Simon]

accumulating on both sides. Accumulating defensiveness on one side and resentment

[Simon Sinek]

on the other, Denying that it was a mistake and trying to double down on the mistake. Just apologize and move on. Yeah, that's very good.

[Alex Simon]

So I think micro. Micro apology, Micro repair is a really good one.

[Simon Sinek]

What I think is so interesting about this conversation, kind of like what we've talked about in other episodes about giving compliments or giving feedback, which is you kind of have to learn a little bit about how somebody wants their apology. Like, you have to check in. My standard is a little different than, yes, totally, and. And yours is higher than mine.

[Alex Simon]

Famously, when I was a child.

[Simon Sinek]

Yeah, I'm okay with the apology as long as. As long as it's obvious what's being apologized for. And very often it is. I think time has a component, you know, like in a situation, I think it's pretty obvious. But if the situation is drawn out, you know, over the course of, you know, days or weeks, then I think you need to make reference to what has happened.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah. I'll share a personal story of a recent time that I had a really hard time apologizing. I was in a fight with someone who I was dating, and I did something that was clearly a mistake, but also really impacted him. And he was very hurt. And I was really focused on how it was a mistake, like, how obviously I didn't mean to hurt him because I know that my intentions are good. And I'm often in the trap that I've discussed before, which is, oh, I know my intentions are good. Therefore, if it's clashing with how it's impacting you in a bad way, I'm like, well, how is that possible? My intentions are good. I never want to hurt anyone. But he was clearly very hurt and I was being defensive. I was, like, justifying my position rather than just acknowledging his pain and expressing that. The thing that was true to me, which is that I was very sorry that I made this mistake. So I was being defensive, being defensive. And he was just like, why can't you just say you're sorry? So he similar situation, like, gave me the scripted I'm sorry. And so I took it and I said, okay, I'm sorry. And at the beginning, the first I said it and I, like, didn't really mean it. I would say, like, I was saying the words, but I was still. I know, but it's so hard. Why is it so hard? And I was saying the words, but more in a, like, I want this to be over way. And, like, you're making me say this

[Simon Sinek]

thing, which is much akin to I'm sorry you feel that way.

[Alex Simon]

Yes.

[Simon Sinek]

I mean, it's.

[Alex Simon]

Say it's the same family.

[Simon Sinek]

Same, same family.

[Alex Simon]

And I said it, and I, like, clearly forced it out, clearly didn't mean it. But then he took it like it was real. And he was like, thank you. Thank you so much. It really hurt. And then when he said that, I looked at him, a person who I love, and I was like, wow, I really hurt him. I do feel sorry.

[Simon Sinek]

So the actual remorse came after you got the response? Yeah, very interesting.

[Alex Simon]

And then a few minutes passed. We were kind of like an awkward silence. We were kind of just sitting there, and the waves of realization just started hitting me of, like, okay, why am I defending myself that I didn't wake up early to go to this thing that I know really mattered to him? Why am I so invested in making sure that he knows that I didn't do it on purpose? I can. The reality is that I didn't go to this thing. He matters to me. It matters to him. And so then after a few minutes, I said, wait, actually, I am really sorry.

[Simon Sinek]

Beautiful.

[Alex Simon]

And I elaborated my apology, and I owned both what happened and the impact. And then he softened even more. And then, oh, this is so good. And then a few minutes passed, and, like, we kind of got over it. He forgave me. It was over. And then, like, half an hour later, it hit me even more like, wow, I really wish I didn't do this thing. And on an even deeper level, and I could apologize again, even though the conversation was over, like, everything was done. The third apology definitely wasn't necessary, but I was able to find genuine regret.

[Simon Sinek]

Here's the very, very, very, very important insight that you are revealing.

[Alex Simon]

What is it?

[Simon Sinek]

No, no, it's so important.

[Alex Simon]

It's so important.

[Simon Sinek]

Which is the point of an effective apology is it does, in fact, relieve tension. That's what it actually does. And if somebody gives a false sorry, a false apology, I'm sorry, or I'm sorry, but. Or I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, they will walk away from that situation. I'm talking about the apologizer will walk away from the situation still angry, still seething, still having some twisted narrative about the other person in their brain, which means they have not apologized or taken accountability sufficiently to relieve their own guilt. And my point is, the body knows. The body knows. So even when you gave a forced apology, even if he believed it, your body, you knew that you actually had more. And so the value of an effective apology allows the apologizer to also let go of the hurt and the tension and the guilt. And it's not just a Gift to the other person. It is a gift to you. And sometimes it goes back to my scenario of me apologizing. Maybe I said I was being self righteous, but no, as I'm thinking, like, when somebody goes through Alcoholics Anonymous, one of the first things they have to do is they have to make amends. And they literally make a list of all the people they've wronged and they just start calling people. I had a friend call me, a friend I hadn't talked to in years. Like an old friend from another time. Nothing happened. We just fell out of touch. Out of the blue, calls me and just says, hey, I know we haven't talked in a while. I just want to apologize for that time you lent me that thing and I broke it and gave it back to you and denied that I broke it. Which is exactly what happened. I'm like, wait, I gave this to you? Not broken. Why is it broken? I didn't do it. I'm like, okay, yeah. Years later, like, I'm over it. You know? Years later, calls me and apologizes. It wasn't for me. The reason alcoholics have to make amends is for them.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Because they carry the guilt.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah. It's like microplastics in your soul.

[Simon Sinek]

It's like microplastics in your soul. And so here's what we're advocating. The apology is as much for you as it is for the other person and the situation.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

That you will let go of your own anger, your own narrative. Because only when you gave the false apology did your brain be like, whoa. No. That you were harboring it until you actually made a real apology. Then you could relax.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And I find that absolutely beautiful. And so there wasn't a self righteousness when I apologized. I just needed to get it out.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

I need to alleviate my tension for the part that I got wrong. And even if he was incapable, that's on him. And the cost was the relationship. Was the relationship. And if that's the cost, then that's the cost.

[Alex Simon]

And that's tragic. And sometimes something horrible happens, Some mistakes are made and we can't take them back. And the only thing we can do is take accountability.

[Simon Sinek]

And

[Alex Simon]

in that case, that's a gift that we give other people. And that's sometimes the only thing we can do.

[Simon Sinek]

There's one glaring hole that we haven't talked about.

[Alex Simon]

What is it?

[Simon Sinek]

We have been spending all of our time talking about the person who's doing the apologizing. But what about the person who's being apologized? To they play a role as well. And so we've talked about how to give an apology, but do people know how to receive one?

[Alex Simon]

Also so hard.

[Simon Sinek]

Also so hard. I think sometimes when somebody gives the genuine, heartfelt, honest, good apology and the other person fails to receive it or receives it, brushes it aside and starts attacking.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And says like, thank you. Because you do that all the time to me. And I'm just. I kind of have this. And like, never let that happen again. How dare you. It's like there's a point at which when an apology is good and heartfelt, you have to receive it. And rejecting the apology over and over and over again, I think is as irresponsible as failing to apologize.

[Alex Simon]

I agree. It's a tender thing when someone comes to you and says. And actually takes responsibility for something. I sometimes have the instinct to do exactly what you're saying, like to twist the knife, to be like. And these other things that you did wrong. And this is, I think it's very normal. And it's almost like when someone takes responsibility for their part, we want to, like, show them the whole tsunami of all the things that they're also not taking responsibility for. We want to be even more right. But I think that we need to let that instinct go in the moment.

[Simon Sinek]

Let's bring it back to work. Right. I'm so sorry I missed the deadline and I'm so sorry I didn't communicate and I know I let the team down. Okay. And then the person receiving that apology goes, yeah, you do this to us all the time. There's no reason to twist the knife. They are, they are genuinely trying to take accountability. And the correct response is thank you. I hear you. Let us work together. I will help you, if you need it, to ensure that this doesn't happen again in the future.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Because I know it hurts you and I know I can hear the pain. And we will work together to ensure this doesn't happen again. Okay.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

And the other person. Yes. Okay. So to be future oriented, when you're in the receiving end of the apology. I know what happened in the past is what they're apologizing for, but the minute the. You recognize that the apology, the apologizer is genuinely trying and genuinely heartfelt, you have to change the lenses on your glasses to go from the rear view mirror to the windshield. You have to start looking forwards.

[Alex Simon]

I agree. And that also brings us to the next part of a good apology, which is, what do you do about repair? And to me, an apology is half taking responsibility for what happened, and it's also taking responsibility for what you'll do differently next time. And so I think it's not just the I'm sorry, yes, this is what happened. And it's. It also involves a. And this is what I've learned from it. This is how things will be different. And not just saying those things and checking the box of saying them, but actually following through.

[Simon Sinek]

If you get really good at apologizing, it may disincentivize you to actually fix things, because you're so good at apologizing and just making the tensions go away and making people feel seen and heard. But at the end of the day, if all you do is repeat behavior and just keep apologizing, at some point, though the apologies are good and heartfelt, at some point, people will just stop trusting you. Because an apology is like college commencement. It's not the end of something. It's the beginning of something. You know, and we're talking. We're not talking about little apologies, right? If there's something systemic or something behavioral or something, you know, that you've got to work on fixing, whatever. And I'll use my example. I'm sorry, I missed the deadline and I didn't. I didn't communicate. And then somebody says, okay, so let's work together to fix that. And you make no attempts to schedule things or ask for help or. And it just keeps repeating and repeating. We always say this at work, which is, you can't fire somebody for performance issues, and you can't fire somebody for behavioral issues. You can fire people if they're uncoachable. Because if you have performance or behavioral issues, I can coach you through either of those things. I can help you. But if you prove yourself to be uncoachable, in other words, there is no growth, then there's no place for you on this team. Because I can't fix the performance or the behavior, and I can't work. You won't fix the performance or the behavior, and I can't help you.

[Alex Simon]

You.

[Simon Sinek]

And so I think the same goes here, which is, I accept the apology, but now I need growth. Even if the growth is bumpy and stumbly, the momentum has to be forwards. And if you fail to commit to growth and repair for whatever has happened, especially if it's repetitive behavior, I think somebody really does put their job at risk. And the irony here is taking accountability is not what gets you fired. It's failure to repair or ask for help and grow that risks you getting fired.

[Alex Simon]

It needs to Be paired with behavioral change. Otherwise, it's just words.

[Simon Sinek]

Otherwise it's just words. Even if they're really, really, really true and honest in the moment. Yeah, like, I do believe that some people feel tremendous guilt and truly do say sorry in that moment, but then forget and let go and don't make the changes necessary to be made. Yeah, I've seen it happen and sadly, I think we've all done it too.

[Alex Simon]

We've all done it.

[Simon Sinek]

I definitely apologize and like, okay, well, that's done and

[Alex Simon]

great job.

[Simon Sinek]

I have a real life scenario where I. And I know the reasons it's somewhat related to adhd, but I take accountability and that's a hard one. Where I genuinely struggle with remembering things that are important to people. And I let people down and I feel bad when it happens and I genuinely want to repair it. And I heartfelt say I do. And it happens again and again and again. And I cannot say it's not me, it's the adhd, because it's still me. And this became so difficult and I started to lose credibility because I wasn't doing the work as they saw it, especially when it's easy for them and hard for me. And that's the hard one. Like, why can't you just. I'm like, I wish I could just. But I can't just right. The huge thing. That was a huge gift to me. I stopped putting the entire burden of the repair on my own shoulders because I was failing over and over and over again, hurting relationships and hurting myself. That I started to ask for help and I used to. And then I just said, I know this is easy for you and I need you to understand this is hard for me and I genuinely want to do it right. And I fail every time I need your help. I need you to be patient with me. I need you to point it out before it happens. And if you see that I'm slipping, give me a little grace and understand that I'm trying and like, be my partner in this repair.

[Alex Simon]

Be testing me.

[Simon Sinek]

Don't be testing me, because I'm going to let you down over and over again. I'm going to let myself down over and over because I need to learn from you and with you. Can you help me build a structure? What would that structure look like? If you see a hint, can you tell me before it gets to the point as opposed to waiting to see if I'm going to succeed or fail this time? And I think that is extremely true at work, if they struggle with deadlines instead of Just waiting for them to succeed or fail again and prove us right or wrong. We sit down with them and work out a system to help them. And I've seen it happen that when that happens, that person will outperform just out of the gratitude that someone took time to help them with the thing that they're struggling with.

[Alex Simon]

The other thing that I really love with repair is this is just a little thing that I like to do is when I'm sorry and you know, I apologize, I recognize it and the impact we figure out what is the path forward. Something that I like to do on top of making sure that I'm doing the behavioral change that is needed in the moment, is find a small way to make it up to someone.

[Simon Sinek]

I find cupcakes work very well.

[Alex Simon]

Yes, cupcakes or a little note.

[Simon Sinek]

Oh, that's good. You know what that does? It reinforces the heartfeltness of the apology. Yeah, I think that's very, very nice. I think that's good. Even a little note going, I just wanted to say sorry, I think you're great. And I'll tell you the biology of that. Well, it's not really the biology, the anthropology of that, which is money is a redeemable commodity. We spend money, we make money, whatever, we waste money, we make more money. Right. But time and effort are non redeemable commodities. We all have a fixed amount of time and you can't get effort back. And so when someone gives you time or effort, it feels richer than someone giving you money.

[Alex Simon]

I love that. I've never thought about those terms.

[Simon Sinek]

And so for example, like you're moving house and one friend says, you know what, I want to help you, I'm going to pay for the moving van. Here's $5,000. And you're like, amazing. Thank you. And another friend says, you know what, I'm going to come over, I'm going to help you pack all the boxes, I'm going to ride in the van with you, I'm going to get to your new house, I'm going to help you unload and unpack all the boxes. Amazing. Both friends call you the same day and go, I need a favor. You help the one who helped you with the time and effort, not the one who gave you money. Even though you're super grateful for the money, at the end of the day, time and energy, time and effort are just more valuable. And people always say that, you know, when you have a meeting with like, hey, thank you for your time, boy. Thank you for your time for this Meeting. No. Thank you for your time. I know you're busy. Like, it's really mean something. And so going out of your way slightly, taking a few minutes to write a note that is often worth more than large sort of displays or hefty words even sometimes.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah. It's the difference. It's the showing versus telling. Like, I can tell you I'm sorry. And that matters a lot, clearly, to me. And to your point about how we can ask people how they want to be apologized to, we can also ask them what repair would look like, what would feel good to you going forward.

[Simon Sinek]

What do I need to do to prevent this happening again?

[Alex Simon]

What do I need to do? What do we need to do? And I think so. I teach a lot of workshops, and I decided to teach one on apologizing.

[Simon Sinek]

Did anybody show up late and then apologize? That does happen, but I'm really sorry. I'm late for the workshop on apologizing.

[Alex Simon]

When I do people pleasing, that one happens. And procrastination. Procrastination. No one signed up for it. And I was like, huh, this is weird. And then day of, 20 people signed up. Really? Is it okay? True to false.

[Simon Sinek]

That's really funny.

[Alex Simon]

Yes. And when I taught how to apologize, normally my workshops are pretty much always sold out, and very few people signed up for how to apologize. And I was a little bit surprised. And we get there, we had a smaller group, which is nice. We had a photographer that day, and so he was like, not really in the workshop. He was just supposed to be taking pictures of the workshop. And then around halfway through, I say something like, oh, does anyone have anything they want to say? And he raises his hand and he's like, I had no idea. I had no idea that I needed to learn how to apologize. But apologies are the tip of an iceberg that I just. I didn't know how big this iceberg was. And I really think this is gonna change my whole marriage. And he just goes on and on and on and on. And so I think it's one of these things that almost no one thinks that they need to work on, because we genuinely believe that, like, we are right and other people are wrong and they should be apologetic.

[Simon Sinek]

And I think we all think we know how to do it.

[Alex Simon]

Yeah.

[Simon Sinek]

Because we've done it even if we did it ineffectively. This was an episode about broadly about accountability, where we talked about blame, we talked about how to take and give credit. And we talk a lot about apologizing, what not to do and what not to do. And how an apology is cathartic, obviously, for the receiver, but deeply cathartic for the giver. It relieves tension when it is real and authentic, and it is an opportunity for greater teamwork. It is an opportunity for greater cooperation. And how simple, right, though complex, how simple that learning how to apologize and take accountability in the right way is a gateway for trust, engagement, and vastly better performance inside an organization. It's amazing to me how this little idea, I mean, when we first said it was like, can we do a whole episode on apologizing? Like, let me figure that in 10 minutes we're done. And like, we've talked for over an hour about this. I think an apology is the highest form of accountability. I mean, there's a bit of a bait and switch we have to acknowledge, which is we called this episode accountability because people will click on that. But if you say how to apologize, nobody's gonna click on it. So for those who are listening, sorry, not sorry. A Bit of Optimism is a production of the Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsey Garbinius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonsinek.com come. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.