A Book with Legs – Episode Summary

Episode Title:

Amitav Acharya – The Once and Future World Order: Why Global Civilization Will Survive the Decline of the West

Date: October 6, 2025
Host: Cole Smead (CEO & Portfolio Manager, Smead Capital Management)
Guest: Amitav Acharya (UNESCO Chair in Transnational Challenges and Governance, Distinguished Professor, American University)

Episode Overview

This episode explores Amitav Acharya’s book, The Once and Future World Order, presenting an expansive, alternative history of global civilization. Acharya challenges the traditional, West-centric view of world order, arguing instead for a “multiplex” vision where civilizations borrow, collaborate, and adapt through flux rather than maintain static dominance. The discussion traverses history, philosophy, and political science, questioning assumptions about power, the role of spirituality, democracy, and population trends while asking what lessons the past might hold for an increasingly multipolar future.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical & Philosophical Approach to World Order

• Acharya’s book weaves together history, philosophy, political science, and the history of science and technology.
  • “You cannot detach philosophy from any discussion of world order because the whole idea of world order is an idea.” — Acharya, [03:26]

2. Origins of World Order: Mesopotamia & Divine Kingship

• The Sumerians are positioned as the earliest known civilization, foundational to the institutions of world order: sovereignty, diplomacy, treaties, and the notion of divine rulership.

  • “Some of the key ideas of world order and institutions of world order started from there...the independence of states… the first treaty-making…” — Acharya, [04:46]

• Spirituality as Political Tool

  • While rulers have leveraged divine association for legitimacy, this often serves political ends more than spiritual ones.
    • “What rulers often do...They use divine authority to legitimize themselves, even if whether they believe in God or not...they find it very useful.” — Acharya, [07:45]

3. Secularization: Lawmakers Replace the Divine

• The West replaced ‘God’ at the top of its societal structure with the lawmaker, creating authority through legal rather than spiritual means.
  • “In the very beginning...it was very common for societies to have what I call law givers…they mediated between the God and the society.” — Acharya, [10:23]

4. Diplomacy: The Amarna System & Multipolarity

• The Amarna period in the ancient Near East is cited as an early, successful example of multipolar diplomacy—lasting longer than the European Concert.
  • “Great power cooperation and diplomacy is not a Western invention...you can manage peace and stability in a multipolar system.” — Acharya, [13:00]

5. Empires, Displacement, and Tolerance

• The displacement of peoples (e.g., Jews to Babylon) is a recurring historical phenomenon.
• Persia, under Cyrus the Great, is highlighted for its tolerance and multicultural administration.
  • “Persian Empire those days was one of the most tolerant, multicultural, multi civilized empire.” — Acharya, [16:38]

6. Greece, Persia, and the Exchange of Ideas

• Western civilization’s glorification of Greece is critiqued as overly romanticized; Greek violence matched that of Persia, and many Greek achievements built on Eastern foundations.
  • “To say that Greeks were the teacher, everything with the pupil...the Greek civilization was a truly Mediterranean civilization, interacting more with the east than with the West.” — Acharya, [20:33]
• Mutual borrowing is a constant across civilizations, not a uniquely Greek trait.
  • “Civilizations advance by learning from contemporary or prior civilizations...No civilization is an island.” — Acharya, [24:06]

7. “Thucydides Trap” – U.S.–China Is Not Athens–Sparta

• The frequent analogy of U.S.-China (rising–status quo power) to Athens-Sparta is declared simplistic and Eurocentric, as historical context and constraints differ radically.
  • “You cannot extrapolate something that small, that part of dependency to something that big, that contemporary.” — Acharya, [27:00]

8. Order and Change: The World Is in Flux, Not Stasis

• Heraclitus’ philosophy of constant flux is favored over notions of static global order.
  • “[T]he world being in a flux is more accurate for most of history than the idea of the world being static.” — Acharya, [30:25]

9. Democracy vs. Monarchy: The Historical Arc

• Democracy is historically fragile and rare; divine monarchy has been the norm.

  • “Throughout history, divine monarchy and empire sanctioned by a divine authority has been far more prevalent, far more common than democracy.” — Acharya, [33:10]

• Even Alexander the Great, educated by Aristotle, enacted monarchy—not democracy.

  • “Alexander always stayed very reverential [to Aristotle]...but he anointed himself as the pharaoh of Egypt and the great king of Persia.” — Acharya, [33:10]

10. Norms of Authority in India and China

• India: King Ashoka’s edicts underlined protection against cruel and unjust punishment—an ancient precedent for human rights.
  • “One of the things he say that...in my kingdom a lot of innocent people are abused, imprisoned for no fault of theirs...should prevent any...cruel and unjust punishment.” — Acharya, [41:16]
• China: Tianxia (“all under heaven”) and the “mandate of heaven” functioned as legitimizing mechanisms for the Zhou and later dynasties.
  • “Heaven looks down on the Zhou emperor, who is benevolent...it's a very inclusive notion.” — Acharya, [48:11]
• Contradictions such as legalism vs. Confucianism are still present in Chinese governance and culture.
  • “For legalism, the core is the state. Make the state stronger. And even if the people might suffer, doesn't matter.” — Acharya, [53:41]

11. Contemporary Parallels: Monroe Doctrine, South China Sea

• Comparing the Monroe Doctrine and China’s South China Sea claims: China faces significant opposition, unlike the U.S. in its hemisphere.
  • “It’ll be very difficult for China to have a Monroe Doctrine in the same way the United States do, because the absence of a countervailing power in the Western hemisphere...versus what the situation in China is.” — Acharya, [56:36]

12. Breadbaskets and Strategic Territories: Ukraine & Egypt

• Historical analogies (Ukraine is to Russia as Egypt was to Rome) are valuable but must consider economic, cultural, and political contexts.
  • “Ukraine is not only the breadbasket, but it's also a major industrial power...there is also the historical and cultural link.” — Acharya, [57:03]
• NATO expansion is viewed as a credible part of Russia’s reasoning, not just Putin’s ambitions.
  • “[T]o say that NATO expansion...had nothing to do with this is like bearing your head into sand.” — Acharya, [58:31]

13. Population, Secularization, and the Future

• Host and guest discuss whether secularization in the West and a declining pronatalist ethos are root causes of civilizational decline.

  • “Has desecularization...moving away from God contributed to the decline of the West? The answer is yes and no.” — Acharya, [62:29]

• More broadly, the future of world civilization is inextricably linked to population trends. Recent history vacillates between fearing overpopulation and now fearing depopulation.

  • “The consensus in the world is that the world has too many people for too few resources...all politics is local in that sense.” — Acharya, [76:10]

• The spread and mixture of ideas is argued as the engine of human progress.

  • “The whole idea of multiplexity...is actually a cross civilizational world order where despite government to government tensions, I think a lot of ideas will emerge.” — Acharya, [68:24]

14. Limits of Chinese Hegemony and the Multiplex Future

• China is unlikely to become a truly global hegemon. Its power projection, lack of universally attractive ideology, and democratic neighbors limit it.
  • “I don't think China can establish a global hegemony comparable to what the United States had...” — Acharya, [77:54]
• The world will become increasingly “multiplex,” with different powers leading in different spheres.
  • “My idea is that every country will lead in different ways...a multiplex world with still substantial amount of interaction.” — Acharya, [79:10]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the flux of world order:

  • “That’s one of the ideas from Greece that we should keep in mind and develop...the world being in a flux is more accurate for most of history than the idea of the world being static.” — Acharya, [30:25]

• On civilizational borrowing:

  • “Civilizations always advance by learning from contemporary or prior civilizations...No civilization is an island.” — Acharya, [25:21]

• On democracy’s fragility:

  • “Democracy is actually the best form of government that one could have. The problem is, could one have genuine democracy?...Throughout history, divine monarchy...has been far more prevalent, far more common than democracy.” — Acharya, [33:10], [35:45]

• On hope for global civilization:

  • “I'm not pessimistic at all that this is not going to go away...unless we are stupid enough to destroy the world.” — Acharya, [68:34]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:26] Philosophy and world order
• [04:46] Sumerians and the origins of world order
• [07:45] Divine authority as political legitimacy
• [10:23] God replaced by the lawmaker in the West
• [13:00] Amarna diplomacy and ancient multipolarity
• [16:38] Persia as a tolerant, multicultural empire
• [20:33] Greek and Persian contributions, mutual borrowing
• [24:06] Civilizational learning as universal
• [27:00] Limits of the Thucydides Trap analogy
• [30:25] The world is in flux
• [33:10-35:45] Democracy vs. monarchy through history
• [41:16] Ashoka’s edicts and early human rights
• [48:11] The Chinese worldview: Tianxia and mandate of heaven
• [53:41] Legalism vs. Confucianism in China today
• [56:36] The South China Sea vs. Monroe Doctrine
• [57:03-58:31] Ukraine’s strategic importance and NATO expansion
• [62:29] Secularization and its impact on Western civilization
• [68:24-70:16] Spread of ideas and population pessimism
• [77:54] China’s limitations as a global hegemon; multiplex world order
• [82:34] Book reception and democratic debate

Where to Follow Amitav Acharya

• Twitter/X: @Amitavacharya
• LinkedIn / Instagram: Amitav Acharya (search)
• Speaking & Media: Active at global conferences and World Affairs Council

Closing Thoughts

• Acharya’s The Once and Future World Order offers a powerful challenge to Western-centric narratives by emphasizing the interconnected, adaptive, and multipolar history (and likely future) of world order.
• Listeners are encouraged to consider the lessons of flux, borrowing, fragility, and optimism as the world navigates away from singular hegemony towards a more “multiplex” web of civilizational interaction.