Episode Overview
Podcast: A Book with Legs
Host: Cole Smead, Smead Capital Management
Guest: David McWilliams, economist and author of Money: A Story of Humanity
Date: December 15, 2025
Theme:
The episode delves into the history, nature, and impact of money as a uniquely human social technology. David McWilliams discusses his new book, asserting that money lies at the heart of human progress, trust, power, and civilization. The conversation combines sweeping historical narrative with insights from economics, religion, anthropology, and investing, exploring money’s role in shaping societies and individual behavior—for better and for worse.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Why Write A History of Money?
[03:02-05:58]
- McWilliams describes his motivation: despite a long career in monetary economics, he found economists often have a too-narrow, technical grasp of money.
- He wanted to understand "what does money actually do to us? Where does it come from? Can it run out? Is anyone in control?"
- McWilliams likens economists to plumbers who understand how pipes work, but not why water is essential—he aims to ask the deeper "why."
- Central Thesis: "Money is the foundational technology that explains human progress." (05:52, David McWilliams)
2. The Social Technology of Money
[07:12-11:01]
- Tells the story of Hitler's WWII attempt to destabilize the UK via mass counterfeiting—money underpins societal trust.
- Money allows for large-scale human cooperation; it's a "shortcut for trust."
- Money "co-evolves" with other fundamental societal technologies: writing, math, law, religion, and governance.
3. Money and Time
[11:00-13:14]
- Money enables us to project ourselves into the future—e.g., through mortgages, insurance.
- This time-travel aspect is "the alchemy of finance."
4. Is Money Imagination or Human Condition?
[13:14-13:47]
- Cole suggests money is a product of the human condition, not mere imagination; McWilliams agrees that it's bound up with consciousness and experience.
5. Money as Fifth Element
[13:58-15:05]
- McWilliams poetically sees money as a "Promethean force," a human-made "fifth element" (in addition to earth, wind, fire, water).
- Money transforms and unites humanity beyond physical necessities.
6. Trade vs. Violence
[15:05-16:24]
- Argues, via sociologist Marcel Mauss, that money (and thus trade) is an alternative to war—a framework that enables peaceful coexistence among strangers.
7. Money as Language
[16:24-19:55]
- Money is compared to language: "The dollar is the English language of the monetary world." (17:56, McWilliams)
- Its utility and dominance arise from wide acceptance, not inherent perfection (cf. crypto/Esperanto).
- Crypto is "the Esperanto of money—fascinating for those involved, dull for most" (20:47, McWilliams).
8. Money, Religion, and Faith
[22:56-26:18]
- Money requires a "collective act of faith," a suspension of disbelief, with value rooted only in societal agreement.
- Both religion and money are "social technologies."
- Christianity arose partly as a reaction to money's disruptive influence—offering solace to those left behind in monetary society.
Notable Quote
"Money requires a collective act of faith. It requires you to offer up a certain amount of bizarre assumptions for it to work." (22:56, McWilliams)
9. Money in Ancient Societies—Pompeii and the Romans
[29:01-32:59]
- Pompeii illustrated the celebration of money (worship of Mercury, god of commerce).
- The Roman Empire's sophisticated financial system included credit, insurance, and speculation.
- Its collapse was precipitated by monetary crises and hyperinflation.
10. State Power and Money
[32:59-35:38]
- Tiberius used monetary crises for political gain, showing how money is a tool of state power.
- The fall of money led to stagnation in the Dark Ages.
11. The Dark Ages & Co-evolution of Money and Progress
[33:59-37:55]
- Human progress recedes when money disappears; as coinage and markets return, so do innovation and urbanization.
12. Church, Commerce, and the Rise of Merchants
[35:16-49:49]
- The Church, state, and merchants have long competed and cooperated as centers of power.
- "Saracen magic": algebra and zero, imported from the Arab world, threatened the Church’s monopoly.
- The rise of calculation altered commerce, giving more power to merchants.
Notable Moment
"Once you release the merchant armed with money and algebra, you create a parallel power in society." (48:32, McWilliams)
13. Merchant Power: Fugger, Amsterdam, and Peter the Great
[51:31-53:31]
- Figures like Jacob Fugger and the Dutch Republic marked "money trumping monarchy" in Western Europe.
- Peter the Great's study of Amsterdam illustrates outsiders’ efforts to understand and selectively adopt market power.
14. Investing: Momentum/Mysthos vs. Value/Logos
[54:26-55:25]
- Cole draws an analogy: momentum investing is "mythos" (narrative, belief), value investing is "logos" (logic, numbers). McWilliams: "That's exactly it." (54:33)
- Observes shifting mythos and logos in US and European attitudes toward markets and power.
15. American Examples: Whiskey Rebellion & Hamilton
[57:19-59:14]
- Early US history: Washington and Hamilton’s suppression of the Whiskey Rebellion and nationalizing debt built federal financial power ("unify a very disunified country").
- Hamilton as "exceptional stabilizer" after revolution.
16. Capitalism’s Double-Edged Sword: Innovation & Atrocity
[62:23-68:06]
- John Dunlop (pneumatic tire) & Roger Casement (exposed Congo exploitation) personify the creative and destructive power of money.
- The rubber boom fueled Belgian colonial atrocities in Congo ("foundational crime of the decolonialized movement").
- McWilliams: telling both the upside and downside of money is crucial; "money is complicated because humans are complicated."
Notable Quote
"What happened in Congo you could argue was the foundational crime of the decolonialized movement, one of the greatest movements of the 21st century." (64:09, McWilliams)
17. Modern Parallels: Technology, Exploitation, and Freedom
[65:14-68:39]
- Cole compares the dark side of tech (OnlyFans) to Congo, as modern profit-driven exploitation.
- Debate over whether China’s brand of "capitalism without money" reflects freedom or simply business.
18. The Wisdom of Ordinary People—“Beer Hedgers”
[68:39-70:22]
- McWilliams’s story: in 1990s Ireland, working-class drinkers predicted currency crises better than economists.
- Practical, social wisdom often outpaces academic models.
Notable Moment
"The guys who drink beer on Friday night, they know what's going on. Better than you do." (68:52, McWilliams)
19. Demographics: Money Needs People
[70:22-71:40]
- Post-gold era: declining birth rates threaten the foundation of the monetary system.
- "Money with no people is the same thing as people with no money: it dies." (70:44 discussion)
Memorable Quotes
- "Money is the foundational technology that explains human progress." — David McWilliams, 05:52
- "Money is a shortcut for trust." — David McWilliams, 17:16
- "Bitcoin is the Esperanto of money. Fascinating for those involved, but dull for the vast majority." — David McWilliams, 20:47
- "Money requires a collective act of faith." — David McWilliams, 22:56
- "Once you release the merchant armed with money and algebra, you create a parallel power in society." — David McWilliams, 48:32
- "The guys who drink beer on Friday night, they know what's going on. Better than you do." — David McWilliams, 68:52
Timestamps for Notable Segments
- 03:02 — Why McWilliams wrote the book and economists' narrow view of money
- 07:12 — Money as social technology and the Hitler/WWII counterfeiting story
- 11:00 — Money as a means of time travel (mortgages, insurance)
- 13:58 — Money as a "fifth element"
- 15:05 — Trade as an alternative to war (Mauss quote)
- 16:24 — Money compared to language; crypto as Esperanto
- 22:56 — Money and faith; religion as social technology
- 29:01 — Celebration of money in Pompeii, Roman Empire financial architecture
- 32:59 — Tiberius and the politicization of money
- 35:38 — Cathedrals, coinage, and economic surplus in medieval Europe
- 48:32 — The merchant's rise and Saracen magic (algebra, zero)
- 54:26 — Momentum = mythos, Value = logos (investing analogy)
- 57:19 — The Whiskey Rebellion and Hamilton's financial state-building
- 62:23 — Dunlop, Casement, and King Leopold's Congo: capitalism’s dark side
- 68:39 — Beer Hedgers and the wisdom of crowds on financial crises
- 70:44 — Demographics: the existential threat of population decline for money
Tone & Language
- The conversation is lively, accessible, and studded with historical storytelling, analogies, and wry humor.
- McWilliams combines scholarly insight with colorful anecdotes and a relatable, conversational tone.
Summary Takeaways
- Money is much more than a technical apparatus—it is a deeply social technology, spanning trust, time, language, faith, and power.
- Civilizations rise and fall with the evolution or destruction of their monetary systems.
- Both the best and worst in humanity are reflected in financial innovation and exploitation.
- Understanding the full story of money requires breaking free from narrow economic models and engaging with anthropology, history, religion, and psychology.
- Ultimately, money's fate is inseparable from the human populations and societies that create and use it—a foundational thread running through the whole story of humanity.
Follow David McWilliams:
- The David McWilliams Podcast (twice a week)
- Twitter/X: @davidmcw
- LinkedIn: David McWilliams
“A fight on money is a fight on humanity and its complexities, sensitivities, and battles.” — Cole Smead, 72:26