Cole Smead (5:28)

Yeah, that was something Padraic highlighted, that it wasn't the question of the amount of food available, it was the allocation.

Conor O'Callaghan (5:34)

Of resources, the distribution.

Enda Kenny (5:36)

Yes. And that was the political inability and inefficiency of the British government of the time 20 to actually cater for what was the single great failure. Because the potato crop was the stable diet of the Irish people, you still had to grow corn, raise cattle and export to pay taxes, which were a ferocious burden on people at that time. So, I mean, the books and the poems and the songs that were written of the disaster of the great famine are still in the people. And, you know, I suppose if you look at it in a different way, with all of those who emigrated on what were known as the coffin ships to grow seal in Canada and to Philadelphia and later on to Ellis island in New York, these were Irish people who went out there, in the case of women, mostly as servants in houses or working in factories. And for men, those who joined the gangs building the docks and the piers and the ports and the railway lines and the coal mines, and that spread out over the United States. And today, in a peculiar way, with the digital connection, you now have a diaspora that is of the order of over 70 million people connected right across the globe. So their travels because of that economic factor has resulted in, if you like, a 250-year-old legacy which is there today.

Conor O'Callaghan (7:06)

Well, like any good head of state, and you're touching on a lot of our questions in our first question, but that's great. So I understand you're in Castle Bar right now. I've actually been to Connacht finals several times, Gaelic football with Martin and Regina McGarrigle's kids. So it's a very small world.

Enda Kenny (7:26)

We've been struggling to win the national championship, which is called after a great nationalist, Sam Maguire, since 1951. And we've been in the final on many occasions over those years, and yet have failed to, as it would say, consummate that particular marriage.

Conor O'Callaghan (7:41)

Yeah. Get it done.

Enda Kenny (7:43)

So even when President Biden was here visiting the hometown of Belinam, where his ancestors on one side came from, he did give the great Mayo battle cry of Mayo for Sam. Now, Sam in Ireland does not mean surface to air missiles. It means Sam Maguire, which is the major championship trophy called after Sam McGuire, who. Who was involved in the foundation of the Gaelic Athletic association and his nationalist tendencies throughout the early part of the 20th century.

Conor O'Callaghan (8:19)

That's very cool. So you touched on this a little bit already, but I want to kind of break it down for our listeners. So the population of Ireland was 8.2 million people in 1841, which is about a million more people than Ireland has today. So that's pretty amazing. And again, you threw out these figures, but by 1931, it had dropped to about 4.2 million. So you're talking about about a 50% decline over 50 years. And then even though the population was net growing, you had tremendous emigration through the 1980s. And so wondering kind of what drove this prolonged emigration, and then also what changed? Because if you look at Ireland over the last 35, 40 years, the population's grown tremendously about 40%. So, you know, we know the horrors of the famine. Let's talk about the positives coming out of it.

Enda Kenny (9:06)

The population of the country was 8 million in the early 1840s. By the 1870s, that was down to less than 4 million. And the growth figures would be that a million died on the roadsides, a million went emigrated to the United States and hundreds of thousands of others to Britain and to Australia, to where some were deported to Van Diemen's Land, which is Tasmania, or to mainland Australia. So the thing was that if you look, Ireland was a white Catholic country because of the plantation of the country with landlords. After the Great wars in Europe, populations were driven west and poorer land, very small holdings. There wasn't any economic opportunity for people or very little in the west of Ireland in particular. And so emigration or the sea were the inherent opportunities that people had to put up with. And so the coffin ships that left from the west coast heading for gross Ile or places in America brought with them a population that carried songs and stories of the tradition of hardship that was there. So, yes, we did have real difficulties economically. There were huge political problems in the 1850s, 60s, 70s, 80s, agitation for land ownership, evictions from houses or people who were unable to pay taxes or whatever. And therefore immigration was the only opportunity. And that continued right through until you had the famous political personalities in the House of Commons who were representing Ireland, Charles Stuart Parnell and many others, Daniel o' Connell before that, who fought for Catholic emancipation. And, you know, the Irish joined up in World War I to fight for the British army and in British uniforms on the basis that they would be given home rule if the Allies won that war, which they did. However, in the middle of the Great War between 1814, 1914, 1918, another rising took place in Dublin in 1916, and that lasted for a week. It was one of those. One of those frequent risings of the day. But the difference was that all the leaders of that were executed and that turned the population against the British government. Then you had a war of independence, you had truce talks with Gladstone, you had a treaty arrangement made in the early 20s, and the state was founded after a Civil War in 22. So you had to rebuild or build a new state from scratch, with no opportunity to have resources like countries have now. So Ireland faced difficulties in the 30s, 40s and 50s, and then at the end of the 1950s, you had the first sort of economic program written for a country, a small country that was one of the first of the 20th century to achieve its independence. And two big events occurred in my lifetime, which were, if you like, opportunities that Ireland has built on. The first of these was the announcement of free education in the late 1960s, where hundreds of thousands of young people, young boys and young girls, did not go to anything beyond the very basic primary school system. And so they started to go to secondary school and then eventually onto third level education and colleges. The second major event was the joining of Ireland, along with Great Britain, to the European Union in the mid-1970s. And that opened up a whole new series of opportunities for trade, for business, for education, for understanding. Brought in, for instance, the Erasmus programs for education that young people could attend in universities all over Europe and indeed beyond for a sabbatical year. Learn their traditions, culture, study their degree and so on like that. The interrailing mechanism which allowed hundreds of thousands of young people to travel, see other countries, meet other people, understand their culture, tradition, dress, music, food, all of these things. And the opportunity then in the evolution of the Common Market into the European Union, allowed for trading systems to a population of over 500 million. In the middle of all that, clearly the United States had a very big bearing on Ireland's past and present and indeed future. Because over the years, beyond the scale of just working as the construction workers or the road builders or whatever, the Irish and their descendants got into business, into politics, local, state and federal, and represented in the White House on many occasions. And that leverage was very important. And when the United States in the late 60s and 70s began to look out from its own borders and recognize that there was a serious opportunity in the European Union, they came to Ireland, just spoke English with the decline of the language because of the famine, but that the education system was nimble, flexible future thinking. So you produced a generation of coders of people who were, you know, really, really up for the wave of change that was coming with the start of the computer age and the digital systems and all of that. And that's been a great alliance between Ireland, Europe and the United States on somewhat rocky grounds at the moment. These things will, will, will, will even themselves out in due course. All of that legacy of hardship and pain and penury from the famine was imprinted on the minds of the people. And education and their future through education was of critical importance and still is for Irish and the young Irish.

Cole Smead (15:43)

So I want to ask a follow on and because in the book, one of the things Podrick really talked about was the Irish view of their family. And really what he argues in the book is that their family was their wealth. Conor has three boys, I have three girls and a boy. Call me Irish, but I like that view.

Enda Kenny (16:03)

Okay.

Conor O'Callaghan (16:03)

Small, small families by Irish.

Cole Smead (16:05)

Yeah, small family. But, but, but in today's context, it's like, you know, three or four kids seems to out punch the average. And so I guess, can you teach us, you know, what, what about the Irish people continues because again, I think part of the diaspora conversation is really the context of family. Like, I know when we met first time here in Arizona, you and Connor were talking about people that we know in common. Our colleague Richard o' Connell, who's in London, you were talking about people that you know in common. But it's that aspect of family, closeness, cousins, et cetera, that seems to continue to show through with the Irish people. Can you kind of teach us, you know, how that's maybe changed? But also, what do you think the core of that is?

Enda Kenny (16:44)

I think the Irish people generally are inquisitive and they're curious, and they are. They are some of the best connectors in the world. Okay, so those who went to New York, in through Ellis island or down to Philadelphia or wherever, they would. They would say they would be brought over there by money, sent back from the United States by relatives who went out first.

Cole Smead (17:06)

Sure.

Enda Kenny (17:06)

Bring over. Bring over the next batch. When the Titanic sailed and went down, it contained many Irish people who were emigrating to the States for whom money had been sent over to Ireland to pay their fare to America and go and work and live there. And so no more than any other nationalities, the Poles or the Germans or whatever else, the Italians, you had sort of Irish ghettos, if you like to call them that, which were built up in cities where Irish congregated together. Irish knew other Irish people. That was a way of creating employment, of knowing who had a job to offer, where work might be available, and all of that. And that still applies in a very modern sense. And in relation to the. Let's say they talked about the carnival, the Gaelic Athletic association, either football or hurling, young people in New Zealand or Australia or China or wherever Africa will wear the country colors of their team. So an Irish person would recognize immediately that this person is from Ireland because they're wearing the jersey of their county and their team, if you like. It's a brand image. It's a recognition. I am from there, and we can associate together very quickly and very easy. Do you know this person? Do you know where there might be work available? I've got this problem. Do you know somebody who can solve it for me? So in that sense, in that sense, that connection has always been there. And to bring that forward again now, where young people have gone out to gain experience in American industry, at whatever level, be it pharma, be it digital, be it technical or whatever, they gain experience, come back at work here, use that experience, send out others. It's a different kind of transient person now, because when they went to the States. Previously, it stayed for life and very few came back, but now it's a much more mobile situation. Might go for three, three months, three years, or whatever. It might be in Australia, it might be in Africa, wherever else. It's a. It's a knowledgeable and transient movement now. And that connection, you know, is so strong. In 2013, I think it was, we had a gathering in Ireland where we said, come home. Come home and see where your ancestors came from. Come home and see where they lived. Come home in some cases, and see from where their great, great, great grandparents were evicted from. Understand who you are, understand where your background is, what your background was, and why you are the person that you are and what you carry inside you, and be proud of that heritage and that capacity to be resilient, to. To compete, to learn to change and live a life. Well.

Conor O'Callaghan (19:56)

The come home thing is pretty funny that you say that. So I had the privilege about 20 years ago of meeting Bono when he was the commencement speaker at my alma mater at the University of Pennsylvania. And so I told him I was from Ireland. He said, where are you from? I said, I lived there for a short time in Clonsilla. And he said, my God. And he's like, well, you know, the potato famine's over. It's okay for you to come home. And so I thought that was a really funny, funny thing.

Enda Kenny (20:23)

I've met Bano on many. I'm sure he's been around the world doing great work, but not just with his music, but also on humanitarian issues. And it's true what he said, and everybody knows that it's over. So it's a very different country, obviously, than applied in those times. Poverty, penury, you know, no living conditions, none of the facilities of modern living. And yet now you've got young Irish people who are at the forefront of many of the businesses and businesses of change that are impacting globally these days. So what he said was correct. And clearly, you know, so many American people come over here every year. When we had the Notre Dame and the Navy play here a few times, it was the biggest exodus of Americans since World War II. 35, 40,000Americans traveled over here not just to see the game, but to sample the Irish hospitality, understand how just how much this country has changed and yet kind of make connections, in some cases with their ancestral family locations and people. We digitized all of the birth certificates and the baptismal certs so we, while some were destroyed in the Four Courts, were burned in 1922. The baptismal records go back 300 years. The church records.

Cole Smead (21:45)

Wow.

Enda Kenny (21:46)

And you have people arriving. This is all on the public site anyway. But many American people come back from Oregon or from places around the states. On my own late mother's side, we have a lot of relations out in Montana who was spread through Billings, Anaconda, way down into the Black Hills and down as far as border Colorado, Eugene, Oregon. And they look the same as we look ourselves until they open their mouths and they got the. They got the Midwestern draw of the American accents. So that connection is live and vibrant as it is with other nationalities as well.

Cole Smead (22:22)

Hi, I'm Cole Smead, CEO and portfolio manager here at Smead Capital Management and host of this podcast. If you enjoy this podcast, I'd like to invite you to check out Smeed Capital. At our firm, we are stock market investors. We advise investors who play the long game with a discipline that has proven success over long periods of time. Learn more about our funds@smeecap.com Past performance is not indicative of future results. Investing involves risks, including loss of principal. Please refer to the prospectus for important information about the investment company, including objectives, risks, charges and expenses. Read and consider it carefully before investing. Smead Funds distributed by Smead Funds Distributors llc. Not affiliated.

Conor O'Callaghan (23:06)

Well, so you talked about change and positive change. So in the book there was obviously a lot of discussion about Ireland's relationship with Britain, which, needless to say, during the potato famine. To say it was horrific would be a gross understatement. Clearly, a lot of things have changed. Good Friday agreement in 1998. The temperature's been turned down a lot. I'm curious if you could talk about the current state of affairs, because there's an ever growing sort of whisper of, you know what? We might see a united Ireland here at some point in the coming decades. And there's a little bit of an irony to it because now, to my understanding, Northern Ireland would actually be an economic drag on the Republic as opposed to the other way around. So just high level, I'm curious if you could speak on that and the likelihood of us seeing a united Ireland, say, in our lifetimes.

Enda Kenny (23:52)

Okay, well, here, your history lesson in 30 seconds. Ireland was colonized for 700 years, and you had revolution after revolution after Revolution and 1916. And the rising was a catalyst in its own way to a kind of a real rejection of the way the country was being run, their lust for independence. And that came about, clearly. You had the country divided on the treaty negotiations with the British government, and that continued right on through a period of 30 years of war with the terrorist organization the IRA and so on like that. So the important thing now is that you have a peace process in operation for the last 30 years plus, and that's been holding very steady. And as an example, if you like, in places around the world where there are serious political problems now, ranging from war to uprisings of one sort or another, that Ireland in its own way was able to put together a process that brought about peace on the streets. And that is still holding. Now, you should know that all governments in the Irish Republic, the British governments by and large, but particularly with President Clinton, who sent over Senator George Mitchell here as the mediator and moderator of discussions between all the parties in Northern Ireland to bring about the peace process. And that took, believe me, a long and difficult period over five years to put that together. The Good Friday Agreement stands. And when you mention about a united Ireland, the Good Friday Agreement also contains the reference to the possibility of sometime in the future that on the same day the people of Northern Ireland might vote to cede from Great Britain, and that the people of the Republic of Ireland might vote on the same day to say, we are happy to accept this. The last thing I did at the European Council meeting myself was to get a unanimous verdict and support for that situation in that if, if that were to happen, that Northern Ireland would then be allowed to rejoin the European Union without having to reapply in the same way as Scotland would have to do if it were to achieve its independence by referendum, which was turned down previously. So all of that is there for. And I have to say that the relationship between the British government and the Irish governments over the last number of years have been very steady and very clear. And there are lots of mutual things that do happen in terms of. We maintain the central features of what happened in the 1920s, in that Irish people have the right to travel to England, to live in England, to vote in England, and that applies vice versa. But wasn't a reality because of the economics of Ireland for so many years. Those central issues are still there. And one that has happened since the Good Friday Agreement is that there is now no border between the Republic and Northern Ireland. So the British people then decided by referendum that they would leave the European Union. And that caused quite a lot of difficulties for the administration of. Of the way the European Union works with its standards in terms of manufacturing and food and the free movement of people, capital goods and services. So, you know, if you're traveling or where for the last number of years back to back from the continent to Britain or from Britain to the continent, you took a different lane than what the Irish would, because as a member of the union, you went straight through with your passport. Others had to line up and be checked. Now, the latest negotiations that have taken place will kind of deal with that situation. So for people in Northern Ireland, which you say could be a drag on the economy here, the position is that Northern Ireland actually has an advantage that nobody else in the European Union has now, because from a business perspective, they have free and open access to the United Kingdom. That means Scotland, England and Wales. And they also have free and open access to the market of 500 million in the European Union, provided that the standards, particularly in relation to the importation or the distribution and manufacture of food and food processing and so on like that, are complied with. So despite all of the difficulties, you have a situation now where Ireland moved from being practically junk status in 2011 because of an economic collapse following Lehman Brothers and the catastrophic. The catastrophic situation with the Irish banks here to a position where as a small country now, you're in the top 20 wealthiest countries in the world. So the challenges for this government and future governments are for, you know, first world country challenges, housing, construction, infrastructure, continued employment in all of these things. So it's a very vibrant situation. And as I say, Ireland from 1845 is an entirely different place now.

Cole Smead (29:28)

Well, you mentioned first world problems we talk a lot about. Those are the kinds you want to have. Enda. It's the first world problems that we like to solve and figure out. It's the other problems that are far worse. You know, you were a very popular Taoiseach, which just so for our audience, that's the Gaelic equivalence of prime minister. I believe you met three presidents which would have been, you know, obviously, first Obama, then Trump, then Biden. Those are different people, those are different politics. Can you tell us what that was like, maybe about their style or things that, you know, you remember about each of those interactions that were unique to you?

Enda Kenny (30:05)

Yeah, well, I had the privilege and the honor of being. Being elected as Taoiseach. Theoque is an old Gaelic word for chieftain or leader. So if you like, if you like to say it from an American perspective, you might say Theodore Roosevelt. Thea. Thea. Catch the live wire, you get a shark. So the shock. There is only one t shock on the planet. And he or sometime in the future to be she. I call that theshock. And that's the word means leader or chieftain. So when I had that privilege of being Elected as the shop. In the beginning, the country was on the edge of an economic precipice. Actually. You had about 28 days left to pay the public service. You had to make some really difficult decisions which the people accepted and moved it forward. So from, from that point of view, you, we maintained the tradition of having access to the American President in the White House on St. Patrick's Day or St. Patrick's Week. Clearly you have massive parades down in Savannah and New York, in Chicago, Boston, San Francisco, Seattle, all these places. And a great celebration of Ireland, not just for Patrick's Day, but for Patrick's Week or it can go on for longer, either end of that. So the opportunity to go and visit the White House and talk to the president and I was there six times with President Obama, once with President Trump on his first period in office and subsequently with President Biden when he became president. And all of these were about the relationship and the continued strength of that relationship between Ireland as a member of the European Union and in its own right with the United States. And that's something that we want to continue with very strongly. And of course there are always, you know, points of difference and points to be argued out and talked about and that's, that's what we do. So for instance, in this country here now you have, you know, a very substantial American investment, maybe a trillion dollars in infrastructure because all the digital plants and the pharma plants, they're all here and they're here because of the quality of the workforce, the ease of doing business. The corporate tax rate has applied then and now. And also on the other hand, we actually have, you know, a thousand companies in America from Ireland that are Irish companies and they're employing American people in every state. So this relationship is not one way as it was for 150 years. It's now a two way operation and that Ireland supplies America and America is very happy to have the range of the talent pool coming out of our technological universities and academic universities and so on. And that's the relationship that obviously we want to continue with very strongly.

Conor O'Callaghan (32:55)

Well, we want to be mindful of your time. I'm curious what you're up to these days, what you're focusing on, what your areas of concern are globally and for Ireland as we look to the future.

Enda Kenny (33:09)

Yeah, well, to leave, I decided not to stay Too long as 45 years in active politics at national level here through 13 different elections, had the privilege of being elected a T shirt twice, putting two governments together, sort out our economic difficulties and Then let it fly. You do realize that we all have time, but nobody knows how much time we have. So I do some work for charity with the Children's Fund for Cancer, a number of environmental companies dealing with the elimination of biohazardous waste, the direct capture of carbon from ambient air. I've been out in Arizona State University, I've been been down to the other places throughout the states. So do do a bit of work in that regard because you just can't stop and do nothing. The world moves on and there are always people and companies looking for advice as to how Europe should be handled or how the United States should be handled. Open up new opportunities and all of that. But it also means that I have time now that both my wife and I can travel here and there, do things we want to do, read a book, go somewhere or whatever.

Conor O'Callaghan (34:31)

Work. Work on your golf handicap.

Enda Kenny (34:33)

Yes. Yeah, well, absolutely. And that's always a variable. But the point is, I think that you appreciate, you know, what it actually means to represent people. It's not just, you know, the chief executive of a company making decision which affects the shareholders and the workers and their employees. When you make decisions as head of government, you are affecting millions of people. And we're not alone anymore in that. We're one of 27 at the European Union level with those massive opportunities of a 500 million population. And obviously there are always difficulties and serious issues to be dealt with. And that's a matter of argument and compromise in making decisions on the basis of our common humanity.

Cole Smead (35:21)

Agree. And I know I'm speaking for both Connor and I when I say that we're incredibly appreciative of your time. I consider this an honor. I also call me a visionary Enda, but I see some point I can see deep into the future, maybe like two years from now, you, Connor and I and a friend of yours teeing off at some beautiful course in Ireland sometime.

Conor O'Callaghan (35:41)

Or in Arizona.

Cole Smead (35:42)

Or in Arizona to play a little afternoon 18 together.

Enda Kenny (35:45)

Sure. And let me extend an open invitation to you and your friends because we have some of the best links courses in the world here. I would say to you, remember that the great defender of a links course is the wind. The wind that blows in off a 3,000 mile reach in the Atlantic Ocean is never gentle. You might start in a force two in Cairn in Belmolish and finish in a four, seven. You know, some really wonderful golf courses here inland and links and they're very, you know, they're, they're very much used by American visitors and we welcome that greatly. So if you've got the, if you've got the mentality and the. And the energy and the skill, you'd be more than welcome to come and play your trade here. And indeed, we pass through some places to those golf courses where great hardship, penury, poverty and death existed, you know, and were relevant in 1845, right up to the late 1850s.

Cole Smead (36:51)

Well, this has been a real treat and we appreciate your time. I know our audience will be thankful for this dialogue and discussion and we wish you the best and hope to see you soon. Thank you so much.

Enda Kenny (37:01)

Thank you very much and glad to be part of your podcast and hope the listeners picked up something.

Cole Smead (37:08)

If you enjoyed this podcast, go to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to A Book With Legs, give us a review. Tell others about the books and great authors like Padraic Scanlon's book Rot, but also the relationships and stories we get to hear from the former Taoiseach himself and to Kenny. We have the opportunity to study the world with and through these people for our tribe. If you have a great book that you'd like to recommend, email podcastmeadcap.com that's podcasteedcap.com. you can also send your suggestions to us on X. Our handle is meedcap. Thank you for joining us for A Book with Legs podcast. We look forward to the next episode.

Podcast Host (37:44)

Thank you for listening to A Book With Legs, a podcast brought to you by Smead Capital Management. The material provided in this podcast is for informational use only and should not be construed as investment advice. You can learn more about Smead Capital Management and its products@smeedcap.com or by calling your financial advisor.