Podcast Summary: A Book with Legs – James Grant, "Friends Until The End"
Host: Cole Smead (Smead Capital Management)
Guest: James Grant, author of Friends Until The End: Edmund Burke and Charles Fox in the Age of Revolution
Date: November 17, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode of A Book with Legs, Cole Smead interviews renowned financial journalist and historian James Grant. The discussion centers on Grant’s latest book, Friends Until The End, which chronicles the unlikely, complex relationship between Edmund Burke and Charles Fox—two major figures in 18th-century British politics who helped shape the ideological tides at the dawn of modern liberalism. The conversation interweaves historical biography, political philosophy, personal anecdotes, and financial parallels, ultimately exploring what it means to maintain friendship and principle through turbulent times.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Why Write About Burke and Fox? (02:00–07:10)
- Grant's Motivation: Grant reveres Burke and Fox for their eloquence, moral conviction, and grounding in classical education—a stark contrast to today’s “age of oralism.”
- Quote (Grant, 02:00): "They were extraordinarily literate people...books they read stood by them and with them and indeed dwelled within them their whole lives. And I find that terrifically inspiring."
- Modern education has lost the literary touch that defined Western intellectual traditions—Grant views himself as “a refugee from this age of limited vocabulary.” (04:31)
2. Backgrounds of Burke & Fox: Contrasts in Upbringing (07:46–11:22)
- Edmund Burke: Irish, middle-class, endured English oppression, championed justice from a young age.
- Charles Fox: Aristocratic, indulgent upbringing, prodigy in pleasure as much as intellect.
- Quote (Grant, 09:19): "He could do no wrong... a prodigy in all things: drinking, gambling, the ancient tongues, modern Italian poetry, in whoring..."
- Despite social, religious, and moral differences, Burke and Fox forged an improbable friendship.
3. Burke's Sense of Justice (11:23–15:13)
- Early episodes—such as the Black Dog Prison incident—foreshadowed Burke’s lifelong identification with the vulnerable.
- Quote (Grant, 13:29): "He did these things not because there was anything in it for him, but justice. I so admired him for it."
4. Corruption and Financial Ethics in 18th-Century Politics (16:28–22:00)
- Office of Paymaster of the Forces: Legalized use of government funds for personal speculation; common practice, facilitated insider trades.
- Both Fox and Burke suffered financially; the perverse incentives permeated Parliament.
- Quote (Grant, 17:56): "[Lord Holland] played this like a fiddle and became extremely rich. So people looked at these hundreds of thousands of pounds sterling..."
5. Parliament, Patronage, and Representation (22:51–23:17)
- Discussion on "rotten boroughs" (uncontested seats) and perverse patronage.
6. Taxation vs. Regulation and Colonial Policy (23:17–23:44)
- British government’s controversial taxation in the colonies (e.g., the Stamp Act) sparked debate—parallels to modern "tax and legalize" arguments.
7. Liberty, Press Freedom, and Political Evolution (24:09–32:56)
- John Wilkes: Symbol of press freedom, political liberty, and popular sovereignty—Wilkes’ turbulent career influenced both Burke and Fox.
- Quote (Smead quoting Fox, 28:25): “[The House is] the only revealers of the national mind, the only judges of what ought to be the sentiments of the kingdom.”
- Fox transitioned from an "insufferable young prig" to a champion of reform (29:03–30:23).
- The term "stock jobbing" described rampant insider speculation, especially around the East India Company (31:01–32:56).
8. Religious & Constitutional Debates (35:32–39:52)
- 39 Articles: Oath required for university admission; Burke defended tradition, Fox opposed.
- Royal Marriage Act: King could block royal marriages; another facet of state power and class divisions.
- Gender and societal limitations discussed via Fox’s relationship with Mrs. Armistead (42:11).
9. Oratory, Public Persona, and Principle (44:04–46:08)
- Fox’s magnetic oratory drew crowds, even as some derided his vices.
- Notably, Fox was a fearless opponent of the slave trade, considering its abolition his greatest achievement.
- Quote (Grant, 45:14): "He was a great enemy of the slave trade and...abolition...the only thing that mattered to him in his parliamentary career."
10. Financial Mismanagement and Reform (46:33–48:54)
- Debates over debtor imprisonment and financial reforms highlighted the economic predicaments and hypocrisies within Parliament.
11. The American Revolution, Franklin, and Radicalism (48:54–51:47)
- Burke’s friendship with Franklin and support for American independence at personal risk.
- Both men admired for their ceaseless intellect and dedication to reform.
12. High Tide and the Collapse: The India Bill & Regicide Crisis (53:17–56:01)
- The Fox-North coalition collapses amid the defeat of East India Company reform.
- Notable quote (Grant, reading Burke, 54:57): "It is in the nature and constitution of things that Calumny and abuse are essential parts of triumph."
- Burke and Fox’s friendship is never the same after this pivotal moment.
13. Constitutional Schism: Regency Controversy and the French Revolution (56:01–60:34)
- King's madness prompts debate about regency; Burke’s defense of tradition puts him at odds with Fox.
- Burke's "Reflections on the Revolution in France" and controversial praise of Marie Antoinette ("...in terms that are almost erotic." – Grant, 59:41).
14. Parallels to Modern Financial Markets (61:05–73:12)
- Smead draws analogies from historical excess and speculation to current trends (data-center capex, AI, household stock ownership).
- Grant expresses skepticism about the sustainability of present market manias and pinpoints future risks in leveraged credit, not just equities.
- Quote (Grant, 66:36): "You want to be a bank unless you have exposure to leveraged corporate borrowers that may be unable to service their debts on time and, and good money."
- Wealth effects, inequality, and economic fragility compared to previous bubbles and speculative eras.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)
-
On Classical Education:
Grant (03:50): "The books they read stood by them and with them and indeed dwelled within them their whole lives. And I find that terrifically inspiring." -
On Burke’s Integrity:
Grant (13:29): "He did these things not because there was anything in it for him, but justice. I so admired him for it." -
On Political Corruption:
Grant (17:56): "[Lord Holland] played this like a fiddle and became extremely rich. So people looked at these hundreds of thousands of pounds sterling..." -
On Insider Speculation:
Grant (31:01): "Stock jobbing was the derogatory term for speculation...You could not be prosecuted for it. So stock jobbing was about the inside world of speculation..." -
On Modern Market Parallels:
Grant (65:41): "In the final throes of a great levitation in equities, interest rates simply don't matter." -
On Speculative Excess & Technology:
Grant (69:27): "Typically as I read financial history...in times of great technological excitement, the financial crisis attended upon the overdoing of the financing precedes the vindication of those ideas in the real economy."
Segment Timestamps
- 02:00 – Grant on classical education and “the age of oralism”
- 07:46 – Burke’s Irish roots vs. Fox’s aristocratic childhood
- 11:23 – Burke’s early activism and sense of mercy
- 16:28 – Political finance, paymasters, and legal corruption
- 24:09 – John Wilkes, liberty, and parliamentary reform
- 31:01 – The age of “stock jobbing,” East India Company speculation
- 35:32 – Church/state, the 39 Articles, and religious freedom
- 39:52 – Royal Marriage Act and gender roles in society
- 44:04 – Fox’s public persona and abolitionist legacy
- 53:17 – High tide: India Bill, collapse of Fox-North coalition
- 56:01 – Schism over the regency crisis and French Revolution
- 61:05 – Linking financial history to present market speculation
Conclusion: The Evolution of Friendship and Principle
- The podcast closes with reflections on the endurance and fragility of political friendships and principles in the face of power and upheaval.
- Smead notes:
"People don't change over time, they change overnight, they change over time...the friendship of Edmund Burke and Charles Fox proves that ideology or a friendship through similar ideas may not always keep friendships." (76:15)
Where to Find James Grant
- Grant’s Interest Rate Observer: Twice monthly newsletter, running for over 42 years.
- New “Jim and Evan Show” call-in podcast launching November 12, 2025.
This conversation offers a vibrant blend of political history and modern financial wisdom, engaging listeners in timeless debates about virtue, reform, speculation, and the endurance of friendship amid the tides of change.