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- [00:03]
Podcast Host
You're listening to A Book with Legs, a podcast presented by Smead Capital Management. At Smead Capital Management, we advise investors who fear stock market failure. You can learn more@smeadcap.com or by calling your financial advisor.
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Cole Smead
Welcome to A Book with Legs podcast. I'm Cole Smead, CEO and Portfolio Manager here at Smead Capital Management. At our firm, we are readers and we believe in the power of books to help shaped informed investors. In this podcast we speak to great authors about their writings. The late great Charlie Munger prescribed using multiple mental models and analysis. We analyze their work through the lens of business markets and people. Luke 2:52 says, and Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and favor with God and man, end quote. We talk a lot about those two kinds of wisdom, worldly wisdom and biblical wisdom. Charlie Munger talked a lot about worldly wisdom. Today we will spend our time talking about biblical wisdom. Joining us on the podcast is Steve Green to discuss his book titled this Beautiful Book. And hosting alongside of me is our chairman, Chief Investigation Officer Bill Smead. Thanks for joining me, dad.
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Steve Green
Great to be here.
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Cole Smead
Steve has been the President of Hobby Lobby since 2004. He holds an honorary doctorate Divinity from the Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary and an Honorary Doctorate of Biblical Literature from American University. Mr. Green is also the Chairman in the Museum of the Bible. He has authored three other titles, Faith in America in 11, Bible in America in 2013, this Dangerous Book in 2017. Not dissimilar to dad and me. Steve's father founded hobby lobby in 1972 and has been a private company ever since that founding. Steve, thanks for joining. Dad and I, you know, you guys are a family business. We're a family business and so it's fun to visit with people like yourself.
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Bill Smead
Appreciate. Thank you for having me on and looking forward to it.
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Cole Smead
So you've written other titles. Our first question is always, you know, why this book? Why are we interested in teaching this? We have kind of some theories on this because as you know, people that love the Bible and read a lot of books on the Bible as well. But we'd love to kind of understand what inspired you to go tell this story.
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Bill Smead
Well, love the Bible. I want a person to have an understanding of the Bible story. And you can start the Bible from Genesis and read through it and it doesn't take too long to start getting bogged down into some details and many people kind of give up on it. I can remember going to a Broadway play. The play was called Les Miserables, had some friends that said it was their favorite story. So we were going to be in New York, said, well, let's go watch the play, and didn't know the story, had never read the book. And I'm sitting there intermission, and I'm confused. I have no idea what the plot is. Of course, it's a musical, so you're having to figure out what are they singing. There's this guy named Jean Valjean and a Javert, and I'm trying to figure out who's who and what's what. And didn't did enjoy it. Saw a little bit of the storyline in the play, Bill. So me and my wife are sitting there trying to catch up and lights go out and the rest of the play. By the end of the play, I had no idea what was going on, didn't know the storyline and didn't enjoy it. But I said, I'm going to give it another chance. I watched the movie, so I knew the storyline. Once I watched the movie, go back and watch the play, and I loved it. When I didn't understand what was going on, I did enjoy it, but when I knew the storyline, I knew what was going on. Then it became a favorite Broadway play for me and my wife. We've gone and seen it several times. And so that is the challenge, I think, with many people with the Bible, they come to this book. It's a big book, and, you know, it takes time to read it all. And if you don't have a basic understanding of the Bible story to begin with, it can become very confusing. So I wanted a person to have, before they come to the Bible, to have a basic knowledge of its story so that they can appreciate the story as they're reading it better.
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Steve Green
Yeah, the first thing I thought of as I was reading it was J. Vernon McGee said, put the cookies on the lower shelf where the kitties can get at them.
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Cole Smead
And that's our overall thought, is that you did a really good job of putting the cookies on that lower shelf. Steve.
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Steve Green
So Americans used to have a Bible in their home. For a kid at 18 today, what's the likelihood that at 18, someone has opened up the Bible?
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Bill Smead
The likelihood is much less today, I would guess, than it has ever been, partly because we don't teach this book as we once did. It used to be part of our education for years in our nation, we taught it. And so the likelihood that a person would have a Bible and would have engaged with it, would be familiar with it was much better in the past than today. We don't teach it in our Schools as we once did. Therefore, I would argue we are probably more ignorant of this book than we have ever been and why there's a need to say we need to start from scratch and introduce this book to a whole new generation.
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Cole Smead
Sure. So you mentioned Engel vs Vitaly in the early part of the book. Your company is obviously known for a very high profile Supreme Court case. Do you ever think that that could be revisited? To your point, there is a chasm of intellect that is being created by this. I would agree with you. But for example, we just saw the Chevron doctrine disappear from the court here recently. Do you ever think there's a chance that Engel vs Vitaly is revisited and the questions why it's revisited are different than what they were in the.
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Bill Smead
Yeah, you think of the Chevron doctrine, that has changed. You think of Roe v. Wade that many would have thought was enshrined in our country. And I think you never say never. Obviously Roe v. Wade. There were those that were arguing that for many years an effort to try to overturn that Chevron. I don't know there was as much of an effort there. But when government does overreach, it creates the opportunity for some corrections and that's what happened. But Ingolst Vital, I don't know that there is as much attention brought to it. But for us to be able to at least introduce the Bible that was more about prayer into the schools, I think that there is an opportunity. My argument is that I believe it is a disservice to students in our nation today not to teach the Bible now. Not that we have to teach it like we would at church, but teach it as a. As a book. Here's what this book's story is, here's how it's impacted our world. Here's the historical evidences for this book, which is what the Museum of the Bible looks at. The three ways the Museum of the Bible looks at the Bible, its history, its impact and its narrative. And when we do that in a non sectarian way, not necessarily espousing faith, but just in a factual way that I believe should be taught in our schools. Because this book has been foundational to our nation. I grew up in Oklahoma, was required to take Oklahoma history. Not that we have a lot of history here, but I wasn't all that interested in Oklahoma history, but it was required. So a student in America not to understand how the Bible was formative in the nation they live in, I believe is a disservice to students in our nation. And it ought to be taught. So not that it is illegal. You know, saying a prayer and mandating a prayer is a little different. But we should be able to teach the Bible in our schools. And I am hopeful and see signs that there is a move to introduce this book back into our public schools and that I'm all for.
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Cole Smead
Let me ask a slightly tangential question and I'll use what's going on in schools and we don't have this in our notes. So I'm kind of going off script to this. But in full disclosure, Steve, my kids, I have two of my kids who go to a classically charter school. It's a classical charter school. So to Your point, it's 90% government funded, but it's a classical school. Which means, to your point, the Bible is being taught. Do you see those kind of options or voucher systems coming up where it's going to have to influence because as dollars move around, people will start voting with their feet and therefore it might actually change, you know, the options for education in America?
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Bill Smead
Yeah, I see several states that have made moves to teach the Bible in the schools. There was a notice just went out here in the state of Oklahoma within the month about the Bible would be in the schools and it would be taught. Now, it's going to have some challenges, legal challenges, and I'll have to see where that goes. But I think if the Bible is taught in a factual way, it should be. There are other options as well. There's what's called release time, where a church next to a school can bring kids over to the school during part of the day, teach the Bible as they would in a school. The parents, the student signs up for it, agrees to it, and that is legal. The Supreme Court has ruled on that. As I understand in our state, we recently passed a law to make it clear that that is legal. And I'm hearing in some states that there's some success in that. There's. The city of Chattanooga has had a law in the books for many years and they teach the Bible in school. It's all funded outside of the public school system, but they're teaching the Bible in the school. So there are different ways of teaching the Bible. And there is a move that I see in many states to say we want people to understand and know this book better.
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Steve Green
So we're wondering, why is the Bible important to our literature and books in general? What's the connection between the importance of the Bible and all of, well, what's its relevance?
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Cole Smead
Your point, you're touching on start with.
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Steve Green
The Founding Fathers or even out to Shakespeare.
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Cole Smead
I think you mentioned your book was another example that you see.
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Steve Green
Why did people come to America originally?
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Bill Smead
Yeah, well, I kind of like starting with a quote, a quote that a gentleman said that the Bible ought to be part of our education for literary culture. And I asked who might have said that? Would it have been, you know, Abraham Lincoln? Would it be a Founding Father? Would it have been Billy Graham? And no, that was actually Richard Dawkins in his own book called the God Delusion, where he is arguing that the God of the Bible is, you know, is just a fairy tale and is pretty ruthless on his description of the God of the Bible. But in his book, he is at least honest enough to say that it ought to be part of our culture for literary culture. And I would argue that for us to be literate in our culture, we ought to know the Bible. And he gives over 100 examples of phrases in our vernacular that come from the Bible. Imagine watching a news story and they are telling somebody that was acting as a Good Samaritan, well, if you don't know the Bible, you don't know the Good Samaritan story. To some degree, you're illiterate in our culture because you don't know the Bible. And that's Richard Dawkins argument. He's sitting there saying that for us to be literate in our culture because so many phrases that are just commonly said in our vernacular come from the Bible, we need to know the Bible and its story. So I'm happy to let Richard Dawkins make my argument that this book should be taught. We need to know it to be littered in our culture. And so many reasons, you know, our founders, you know, our nation, many of the laws our nation is built upon were inspired by this book. It is built on a biblical worldview. And if we become ignorant of that and we don't understand where the foundational principles our nation is built on, we are at risk of walking away from some of those principles that are what are foundational in making this nation the great nation that it is.
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Cole Smead
So you begin with a story of mesheba Seth as kind of your initial picture. I thought this was great. This is kind of really good. You know, what I'll call baby food, because it's easy to glance over too. And I think it was a great story to pull out and really highlight, teach our listeners who Meshe Besseth was.
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Bill Smead
Yeah, Zay Mephibosheth. He there is in the verse in the first part of second Samuel. It's kind of just a verse talking about Mephibosheth and how that his father and grandfather, King Saul, and his dad, Jonathan, were killed in battle. And so word got back to his caretaker, he was five years old at the time, that both the king and the king's son had died and the other sons of the king had died. So that puts Mephibosheth in a very precarious position. His life is now at risk because when the king and his sons are dead, now there's going to be a power struggle, and there will be those that will have a desire to eliminate the next potential king. And as a descendant of one of the sons of the king, he's going to be in the scope of some that might want to rise to power. So his caretaker flees, he falls. It doesn't tell us exactly how, becomes lame. They're going to a backwoods part of the country, hiding in a period of time. And it's just a quick verse that says that's what happened. And, you know, then the story goes on, talks about how that ultimately David becomes king and grows in his power many years later. Then King David, who was a friend of Jonathan, Saul's son, is asking, does Jonathan have any kids? And someone says, well, he has a son kind of hiding away up in this part of the country. And he says, I want to see him. And so he is sent for, brought to the king. Now, Mephibosheth is older now, and you have to think, what is he? Why does the king want to see me? Is he wanting to get rid of me? Because he feels threatened by me? So he may very well be thinking his life is over. The king's bringing me in because he's going to get rid of me. King David says, I want you to sit at my table, and I want you to eat with me for the rest of your life. And when you put the stories together and you have to kind of piece it together, it really is, in short, the story of what the Bible story is as a whole. It is the Bible story in miniature.
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Steve Green
Grace.
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Bill Smead
Here is the king that could kill Mephibosheth, but instead of killing him, invites him into his table. That, in essence, is what God does for us. While our sin deserves death, he pays the price and invites us in to sit at his table for eternity. So it is one of many ways that the Bible is telling that story over and over in all different kinds of ways. And just the simple story of Mephibosheth is one of the ways that the Bible story is told through his story.
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Cole Smead
So real quick, the word meta in our business has kind of become somewhat of a swear word. But you bring out the idea of the metanarrative of the Bible. Can you kind of hit. You're hitting on that with that story, but can you explain your idea of the metanarrative more?
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Bill Smead
Yeah, and that goes back to the fact that this book tells a story. There is a story that all of these books coming together tells. There's 66 books in the Old and New Testament combined written by over 40 authors over a 14, 1500 year period. People that didn't know each other, a king on a throne, a guy that just lost everything, a guy in prison, are writing part of this story. You bring all of it together and when you see it tells a story, a metanarrative, all those stories coming together tell this metanarrative of the Bible. And that's what I want people to understand. And Mephibosheth's story is one of the ways it's told simply. Guy that didn't deserve to be at the king's table is invited to sit at the king's table. That in essence is the big story of the Bible.
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Steve Green
Cole was in my first and second grade Sunday school class and I remember teaching Meshibet many, many times. You talk about the creation story and what happened over its seven days. Again, you write in your own eyes. Do you think God did this in seven days or do you think it's a metaphor for the time?
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Bill Smead
Yeah, you know, I. Hebrews 11 lets us know that we understand that God created all things by faith. So the scripture is letting us know that this is a. Whatever we believe about creation, we believe it by faith. Sure, some will come at it from a science perspective and come up with a different conclusion, but what I believe is what the Bible says. And it appears to be pretty clear to me that the Bible is not speaking metaphorically at least when it's talking about the seven days in the evening and the morning was the first day, in the evening and the morning was the second day. It pretty sounds pretty literal to me. And that's the way I take it that God literally created heaven and earth in seven days. He's God. He is capable of doing whatever. And I take it at face value that it is exactly the way he describes.
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Cole Smead
Yeah, we're in the same camp.
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Steve Green
No, we kind of say he's like. He's like Rick James and he does what he wants.
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Cole Smead
He does whatever he wants. And to your point, I mean, it's like you're God. Why wouldn't you do it in the biggest way? Because you are God, literally.
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Steve Green
So let's go to Adam and Eve and their role in the garden that is in today's society. That's got to be as contentious of subject as any. It's just discussing Adam and Eve and how they were created and what their role was.
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Bill Smead
Yeah, you know, I think God before even was even created. God gave Adam the job of naming all the animals. So he was given that job. And then after Eve was formed, they were instructed to attend the garden. They were to care for the garden. Now how that looked, I don't know. It looked different in today because the scripture says after the fall there were thorns and weeds and that, so it must have been easier. But there was still a role of tending the garden and to commune with God. That is a beautiful picture of life that was given to them as here's, here's a role that they've been given and the opportunity to commune with their creator. It was a beautiful life.
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Cole Smead
Hi, I'm Cole Smead, CEO and portfolio manager here at Smead Capital Management and.
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Host of this podcast.
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If you enjoy this podcast, I'd like to invite you to check out smeadcap.com at our firm. We are stock market investors. We advise investors who fear stock market failure with a discipline that has proven success over long periods of time. Learn more about our funds@smeadcap.com past performance is not indicative of future results. Investing involves risks, including loss of principal. Please refer to the prospectus for important information about the investment company, including objectives, risks, charges and expenses. Read and consider it carefully before investing. Smead funds distributed by UMB Distribution Services llc.
- [20:07]
Not affiliated. So God gave them one rule. He said, here's a tree I don't want you to eat from. Obviously, if I asked you the question again, let's just say I'm the layperson, I've never read the Bible before and I say to you, Steve, why does God give his creation rules? What would be your response to that?
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Bill Smead
Yeah, when you go to the tree in the garden, it's kind of. You could scratch your head. Why didn't God just not put the tree there? Sure, why not just make it where there was no rule. There was nothing that they could have done that would have been wrong. But there's a tree. And I think of a new story many years ago of a guy that had taken two girls captive, imprisoned them in his basement for many years until they escaped. And you're sitting There saying that is not a picture of love. Yeah, love requires a choice. For me to love my wife and for her to love me, we have to have the choice. It's not that I imprison her or she me. And God's desire is to give mankind a choice to love him. And the only way to do that was to give them the choice not to.
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Cole Smead
Sure.
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Bill Smead
Thus a tree. And so today we are obviously under a different situation with the Fall. And now that human nature is to sin and to do wrong, God has to come in and say, your life is messed up. This is a broken world. And here are the guidelines that are to make your life the best it can be, and I want the best life for you. And here are the rules to live by. But again, we live by them by choice. But many times we don't choose to follow those guidelines.
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Cole Smead
Well, to your point, I mean, as I look at a lot of the studies that come out of use, today's world where it's like marriage is not as common as it was in prior times and children out of wedlock is very high nowadays and things of that nature. But we all know that's not a preferred way to go through life. To your point, when God laid out his rules, that was his way of saying, I wanna bless you. Live by these rules. If you don't, it's gonna be terrible or really tough. And so I completely agree. Another thing, I was just thinking about this again back to like God's God. And you point this out in the book. Was God really looking for Adam and Eve in the garden after they sinned?
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Bill Smead
Yeah. I think of imagine a little kid and you play hide and seek. And they sit on the couch and they close their eyes, thinking they're hiding, you know, And a parent comes in and kind of pretends, looks under the couch. Oh, he's not there. And looks behind the dresser. Oh, he's not there. Oh, there you are. You know, it's kind of a game. Obviously God knew exactly where they were. They were trying to hide from God. Yeah, you can't hide from God any more than the kid is hiding by closing his eyes. But he's playing their silly game. Okay, let me go find you.
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Steve Green
So here's a very important question. Do you think God stopped to consider how much money my wife was going to spend on clothing when he invented clothing?
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Bill Smead
That's a dangerous question.
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Cole Smead
Well, yeah, she's not here.
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Steve Green
Yeah, neither is my wife, but she.
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Bill Smead
May listen into this.
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Cole Smead
That's funny.
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Steve Green
You tell a story of Cain And Abel, which I don't know if you've ever seen it. There's a goofy movie with Jack Black where they do kind of a spoof on this whole thing that's actually quite hysterical.
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Cole Smead
Yeah, I'm trying to think of the name. We'll think of it here in a second.
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Steve Green
Cain kills his brother. After this, you point out that the world got worse. What do you think the world looked like before Noah, in other words?
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Cole Smead
I was trying to kind of contemplate as I was rereading this. You do a really good job of pointing out that. And we'll get to this later. We'll talk a little bit about the genealogy, which is a very important thing that I think you point out in your book. But like, it had to be pretty bad, Steve. And it's like you might look around and today's world and say, this is obviously not heaven. And so I always try to think about, like, what did that look like? How bad was it to where God was like, uh, oh, I'm not going to play hide and seek anymore. This is getting pretty off the rails.
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Bill Smead
Yeah. And it kind of indicates to us that mankind just continued to deteriorate to the point where that when God called Noah because he was going to wipe out the earth, that there was violence all over the earth. And it says that a couple of times. It doesn't go into detail and it doesn't tell us. But I think of my brother did the movie into the Spear and then the documentary beyond the Gates of Splendor that tells a story of a tribe in the Ecuadorian jungles that was separated from the rest of the world. There had not been a peaceful contact with this tribe that was known. They were a violent society. Secular anthropologists went and studied this society. Now what happened is eventually a group brought God's word in and they turned from their violence. And that created the opportunity for the secular anthropologists to study them and determine that they were the most violent society ever documented as of that time. And I don't remember the percents, but the statistics show that they the chance of them being killed within their own tribe was very high. And what was learned is the culture was ended in argument, in death. You would argue, and how do you end the argument? Well, I just kill you. And then if I killed a family member of yours, then somebody in your family member family was going to have to come and kill somebody because of the vendetta. That was just part of the culture. It was just a violent culture. And they were on their way of killing themselves out?
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Cole Smead
Sure.
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Bill Smead
And I'm sitting there thinking, is that the picture of what was happening during the day of Noah when violence was everywhere and there was no guidelines? The Bible had not been given to mankind at that time. God had not given them guidelines. And it was just the natural tendency. This was a society that was separate from the world. And I'm thinking it is a picture of what the world potentially was like during the day of Noah, where it was just people killing people at random.
- [26:57]
Cole Smead
So you just touched on, obviously, the first five books of the Bible that what we know as the Torah came obviously later. But part of the reason of that is because they could just use oral tradition. You point out how long Adam was around. Adam's watching generation after generation of, I'll call it degradation take place in his legacy. Can you kind of teach our listeners this is one of the more interesting breadcrumbs to pull out of this book just to remind yourself of what Adam got to witness in his lifetime?
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Bill Smead
Yeah, I can kind of geek out on genealogy. It can be boring reading. But then there's a lot of information that God gives us in that genealogy. And when you study it, it kind of is intriguing. For example, Adam lived over 900 years. Methuselah, the person that is the oldest person recorded in the Bible, almost a thousand years. And when you put these. Line these people up, you realize that Methuselah and Adam lived over 200 years at the same time. They probably talked to each other. So Methuselah is probably asking Adam time and time again for 200 years. He could be asking, now, tell me again, what was it like back then? You know, what did God tell you? And so imagine Methuselah and others, you know, would have known this. Well, Methuselah and Noah lived for almost 600 years together. So imagine Methuselah could have been telling Noah. Well, here's what Adam told me, and he is passing that story on to Noah. Well, Noah was living during the time that Abraham's father was living. So Noah could have said, well, Methuselah was telling me what Adam said, and here's what Adam said. So that story could have passed down orally easily just within a few generations. And it, you know, and then Abraham hearing from his dad. Well, by the way, Noah told me this, and he heard it from Methuselah, who heard it from Adam. So until scripture was recorded at Moses, it would have been passed orally, but because of the length of the lives that were told prior to the flood, that Was just within a few generations, you've got Abraham telling the story first handed from people that were firsthand, from the firsthand and could have easily been passed down orally.
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Steve Green
A whole stretch of firsthand passing. So let's talk a bit about the difference between God's mercy, God's holiness and God's justice.
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Cole Smead
Because they're paradoxical to a lot of people, but they're not contrary to each other either.
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Bill Smead
Yeah, yeah, there is easy to think that there are these two different types of gods. And some will argue that Old Testament, New Testament God, an Old Testament God, very vindictive, a God of justice. And yet a picture in the New Testament a God of mercy and love. And yeah, God is both. And he teaches us that while he is a God that is holy and just and requires payment for sin, he is also a God of love and mercy and has made provisions for the justice that his holiness requires. And that being through His Son. And I like using the physical Son as an example. Here's the Son. I don't recommend getting very much closer than what we are because you get much closer to the sun, you'll burn up. If this earth was just a little bit closer to the sun, life would not exist on this planet because our planet would be too hot. That sun is also required for life on this planet. If there were no sun, there would be no life on our planet. So God is a God of holiness and our sin keeps us from being able to live in his presence. Sure, were it not for the fact that he loved us enough to pay the price for our sin through the death of His Son. So that is his mercy. That covers the requirement of his holiness and justice. He paid the price for our sin. And so that's where it's a beautiful picture of how the two attributes of God come together. And we are the beneficiaries of both his holiness and his justice.
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Steve Green
Now you mentioned. I just thought of a thought. Kind of a religion has been built up around environmentalism. And you know, what do you think the Bible would say or how would you look at it? Through the scope of the Bible? Are we damaging the planet in a way that would make God unhappy? I mean, that's a hard thing to sort out, isn't it, for people that study the Bible and look at the current circumstances and say, you know, it's pretty hot today at Phoenix, so it's easy to understand that there's a concern there. Are we getting too close to the sun? I guess is the question.
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Bill Smead
Yeah. Well, I think that you know, God going back to Adam and Eve gave them the role of having dominion over this creation. Sure we are, and we're to care for it. We should work for clean air and water. But we're also under the understanding that we are going to be here temporarily. The sun is in a process of burning out, like all stars. Yeah. And so there is a limited time that we're going to be on this planet. And what our culture has moved to is almost a worship of the planet where that we can't have dominion over the planet and use the planet for human good and human flourishing and tries to make that out to be wrong, which is not what I believe God intended.
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Steve Green
Yeah.
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Cole Smead
And by the way, before Bill asks this next question, it makes me think that there needs to be, like, screwtape letters 2.0, and that's a prevalent part of the book today.
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Steve Green
We love the Screwtape letters. You use CS Lewis, Aslan, from the Chronicles of Narnia, which is a classic, to explain the paradox of God's attributes. Teach our listeners about Aslan a little bit.
- [33:47]
Bill Smead
Yeah. Aslan is the lion in his novels, the Chronicles of Narnia and great classical works that have biblical symbolism throughout. And in one of the stories in this world that animals speak and talk, there is a visitor to this land that is asking the beavers about Aslan, who is the lion, the king of the jungle, and how he's a character within this, which is a representation of God. And the beavers allude to Aslan, and when he comes, all things are good. And this visitor's asking, well, is Aslan safe? And the beaver says, safe? Who said anything about being safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he is good. He's the king, I tell you. So it's a matter of safe and good. Is the son safe? What do you mean, safe? It'll burn you up if you get close. But is it good? Oh, it's absolutely good. That is the analogy that C.S. lewis uses for Aslan. The lion, the representation of God. Oh, he's not safe, but, oh, he is good. So it's a great analogy in his story that this Aslan is, throughout the Chronicles of Narnia series as a representation of God.
- [35:25]
Cole Smead
I was going to say C.S. lewis is kind of an interesting person to study about a person's interaction with the Bible. I think, as well. I think you touched on this later in your book. But, I mean, he. He did not read the Bible as someone who believed in it at all. He met it as an agnostic if I remember correctly, was a skeptic. And obviously, you know, could you kind of explain like how that changes life? Because I think that's an interesting part to understand. How often do you read a book and it completely changes who you are?
- [35:56]
Bill Smead
Yeah, well, and that kind of goes to Museum of the Bible, as you mentioned, chairman of the board there. One of the, one of the things that we, the ways we do it is we're looking at just the facts of the Bible. We're not, again, espousing faith because I believe the facts of this book are overwhelming when understood. There are those that are agnostic or atheists, sure that when they have been honest and given the Bible an honest review, have come to accept the fact that this book is what it claims to be. C.S. lewis being one of those, Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel, some atheist, agnostic, he wasn't. C.S. lewis wasn't necessarily a friend of scripture, but as he began to study scripture and realize its credibility, came to the conclusion that it is what it claims to be. And so I don't know all of his story, but know that he went from diagnostic atheist to obviously accepting and embracing scripture.
- [37:08]
Cole Smead
We hope you're enjoying the podcast. You know, we work hard putting together this show, but we work even harder for our investors at SMEAD Capital Management. At Smead, we believe in disciplined investing, which is why the SMEAD funds have a proven track record of long term outperformance. If you're an investor who fears stock market failure like I do and want to invest in wonderful companies to build wealth, we invite you to visit smeadcap.com Past performance is not indicative of future results. Investing involves risks, including loss of principal. Please refer to the prospectus for important information about the investment company, including objectives, risks, charges and expenses. Read and consider it carefully before investing. Smead funds distributed by UMB Distribution Services llc.
- [37:51]
Not affiliated. Let me pivot a little bit because, you know, we talked about earlier, Steve, you worked with your dad for many years. You know, you've worked with family for many years and you talk about Jacob. Adam's family was dysfunctional. You know, Jacob's family was dysfunctional. And you know, is this a pretty good way? I know it's not. It's very typical. Someone wakes up and says, gosh, my family is kind of jacked up. And wouldn't you say that's also kind of a theme across the Bible as well?
- [38:21]
Bill Smead
Yeah, I have mentioned often, you know, my, my, my wife, you know, kind of encourages our kids to, you know, have a, have A. I got four of my six that are married, but, you know, you know, have a list of character qualities that you want in a spouse and be thinking about that. And there's. There's good in that and all that. But I'm sitting there thinking, well, if. If you want. Don't you want Jesus as your spouse if it's a girl? I mean, you want somebody perfect, which. Which character quality do.
- [38:50]
Cole Smead
Yeah.
- [38:53]
Bill Smead
And yet I'm sitting there thinking, God has no option. He has no option but to give you an imperfect spouse, because that's all he's got.
- [39:02]
Steve Green
Sinners by nature and choice.
- [39:04]
Bill Smead
Yeah. Churches are constantly having to find new pastors. And what do they want? They want the perfect pastor. Well, let me just break the news to you. God has none. He has no option but to give every church an imperfect pastor. That's all he's got. Jacob is an example. Any Bible character is an example. Their family, especially you look at Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph. Jacob was a mess. He's stealing his brother's birthright. He's conspiring with his mother, you know, fake his father out and being his brother. I mean, he's one of the founders, the forefathers of the religion. He's part of the biblical story. He's. God has no option but to use imperfect people, every one of them, or imperfect.
- [40:01]
Steve Green
He got to catch the ladder to heaven.
- [40:04]
Bill Smead
He did. He wound up wrestling with God himself. And so while we are imperfect, God still is able to use us. You know, again, I go back to the museum of the Bible. I believe God put it there and he directed there. And I got to be a part of that in spite of myself. Sure. God uses us.
- [40:30]
Cole Smead
So just put a real quick bow on Jacob. This would be. I'll just ask if you agree with me on this. So, you know, one of the criticisms of looking at, say, the Old Testament, people say, well, you know, look, you know, Jacob had multiple wives, okay. As though, like, God intended for that. Would you say there's a single example that you found as a purveyor of the Bible over your life where a person had more than one spouse and it didn't cause trouble?
- [40:59]
Bill Smead
I don't know that you can find an example of that.
- [41:01]
Cole Smead
Okay. I just want to, like, make sure we put a bow on that, because as our. As our pastor Mark Driscoll would say, two wives is too many.
- [41:09]
Steve Green
So we want to talk about what the difference is between profits and false profits. And just to preface that, we're in the investment business, so we see a.
- [41:19]
Cole Smead
Lot of both of these things.
- [41:21]
Steve Green
We see some pretty wise people like Charlie Munger, and then we see a lot of people getting paid to tell people a lot of stuff that we wonder. We scratch our heads and go, wow.
- [41:33]
Bill Smead
Yeah, yeah. I think of prophets when you have one set of books and they're accurate and it shows a prophet. And then false prophets, when you got two sets of books and one shows one thing and another shows another, that would be false prophets. Scripturally, God lets us know that a true prophet hearing from God what he says is going to happen. And there's many that are false prophets, that scripture says that if what they say doesn't come, then they're not hearing from God and that's a false prophet.
- [42:10]
Cole Smead
Sure. You mentioned the story of Caleb and Jacob. This is probably one of my favorite Bible stories. Like, we're contrarian investors, Steve. So here you got 12 people. Two of them are like, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. And the other 10 are like, these guys are way bigger than us. And yeah, it's the land of milk and honey, but we're going to get the crap kicked out of us by the Philistines. Do you, do you think this is another, as I think like a meta narrative for the Bible? I think just like there's this story of grace sitting at the king's table, like you pointed out earlier, isn't there also a meta narrative by humankind's or mankind's lack of faith?
- [42:47]
Bill Smead
Yeah, I think it is a regular, regular story within the scripture of man's lack of trust in God. The children of Israel time and time again were told trust and obey, and yet they continually walked away from God. And so, you know the 12 spies that go into the promised land, and two came back with a positive report because they had a confidence, they had a faith and a trust that God said he was going to bring us into this land and give it to us. And the other 10 doubted they did not believe. And it is just the picture of the human condition that it is natural for us not to believe in this God that has given us his word and that has sent his son to pay the price. And so it does, does just show again, another example within scripture of how it's a picture of the condition of.
- [43:56]
Steve Green
Man where Elijah poured water on his wood and created a pool around it and said to the prophets of baal, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, my guy's going to cook big time.
- [44:06]
Cole Smead
Which is the exact opposite.
- [44:08]
Steve Green
Yeah. Okay. So Job teaches us that not all friendly advice is Good advice. That's one of my favorites. Explain this through the story of Job.
- [44:18]
Bill Smead
Yeah, you know, Job, it is understood, it's believed that it's probably the earliest story within Scripture. It's not known exactly the date, but probably maybe one of the earliest stories. And it is a very tragic story here. Right at the very beginning, Job loses everything. His kids, his crops, his animals. I mean, his wife is still with him, but he gets boils. It just is a tragic story. And most of the story is of his friends coming and them having a dialogue. Now, it starts out, well, his friends come and they're quiet. They don't say a word. And then the problem starts happening when they start talking. And in their minds, they're sitting there thinking, job, you must have done something wrong.
- [45:12]
Steve Green
You must have done something wrong.
- [45:13]
Bill Smead
You must have a karmic God.
- [45:15]
Cole Smead
It's like a karmic view of God. Oh, what'd you do? We, you know, and it is human.
- [45:21]
Bill Smead
Nature, and sometimes our actions do cause us problems.
- [45:24]
Steve Green
Sure.
- [45:25]
Bill Smead
But that wasn't the case for Job. And so it just goes from bad to worse. It just is a long book of this dialogue and them constantly trying to tell, job, you really messed up. You need to fix whatever it is you did.
- [45:42]
Steve Green
Steve, do you think that's the kind of thing that maybe scares people that maybe haven't read the Bible and aren't familiar with this stuff? Because, in effect, it's like there's a cocktail party in the heavenly realm, and Satan gets to hang around because he was one of the original angels or whatever, and he says, look, you think this guy is such a good guy, Just let me at him for a while and let me have access. And I think God said, that's fine, but you can't. You can't kill the guy. Right. And don't you think that's the kind of narrative that, like, would fry the brain of, you know, your typical academic that might come to read the Bible?
- [46:27]
Bill Smead
Yeah, well, and when it even starts with God pointing out to Satan, have you noticed my, you know, followers, Satan? And so it's a way of just saying, wow, is this a good God? And ultimately, yes, he is. Scripture doesn't even ever tell us that God explained to Job what all was going on. You know, it's kind of these two different worlds that never do come together. Now, God revealed this story to somebody somewhere, and whether that was Job later, who knows? But, yeah, there will be many that will try to show that God is a bad God. And you don't want this God, because he's going to, you know, sic Satan on you.
- [47:21]
Steve Green
And Steve, don't you think on top of that, for example, the idea that there is a supernatural realm and the Bible says that the bad people in the supernatural realm are free to roam the earth like a roaring lion, seeking what they may devour. I mean, as someone that reads the Bible and believes the Bible, that makes a lot of sense to you. But for someone who hasn't read the Bible, doesn't that just sound like voodoo?
- [47:49]
Bill Smead
Yeah. Yeah. And the fact of the matter is there is a real realm, a spiritual realm that is just as real as the physical realm that we live in. And Scripture shows us that. And Job is a great book that gives us a window into that world.
- [48:09]
Steve Green
Teach our listeners about the genealogy from Abraham to Jesus, just to kind of.
- [48:14]
Cole Smead
This is really. I mean, this is another really fun nugget you left behind for readers that, you know, no one's going to stop and be like, by the way, in the middle of your Bible, let's go run down through the genealogy, which I think is a great section of your book.
- [48:26]
Bill Smead
Yeah. And so there is genealogies that are given to us, again, that can be for many, you know, one just to skip over. But there's just so many great nuggets in there. And one of those nuggets happens to be fulfilled in prophecy how that Jesus was going to come through the line of David. And, you know, genealogy shows that through David's line, Jesus arrives. And it's also interesting to note how that there are some interesting characters in that line, from a prostitute to a Moabite to those that you would think would be. You would think this needs to be a royal line and they all need to be royalty. But even Jesus line runs through questionable characters because God has no options but to have questionable characters in his line because they were all questionable. Even David himself was a flawed man. So. But that is significant because it is fulfilling what was prophesied that the Messiah was going to come through the line of David. So that genealogy is a part of the story that lets us see this picture of God's hand throughout all of history, using that line for his purposes.
- [50:03]
Cole Smead
And then you talk about. Later in the book, you talk about Saul. He goes to the tabernacle to preach. Okay. And he goes through that. I think he spends almost his entire time talking about the genealogy and legacy of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And then he gets to the very end of his sermon at the tabernacle and he mentions Jesus as the tail End, you know, whether it be thinking about today, how important do you view legacy to be in a family or in a group of people like the Jews of Saul's time?
- [50:36]
Bill Smead
Yeah, I think that one of the ways that I look at trying to tell that metanarrative is through this. One of them is through this genealogical line. One of the ways I look at it is through five main characters. Jesus being one. Four others.
- [50:51]
Cole Smead
Sure.
- [50:52]
Bill Smead
Abraham, Moses, King David, Isaiah and Jesus. Well, the first three were given a promise. David, you know, through his line, his line would be on the throne forever. That was the promise. And that was through the genealogical line of David. That takes us to Jesus, who is going to be on the throne forever. Abraham was told through his seed all the world would be blessed. How's that going to happen? It was through Jesus. And then Abraham or Moses was told that another prophet would come after him like him. So there were those three promises to those three individuals that were fulfilled in Jesus. And some would say, well, that's just my interpretation. Well, no, it is that message of Saul, it is that message of Stephen and a message of Peter that are tying those promises, that genealogical line and those promises given were fulfilled in Jesus.
- [51:50]
Cole Smead
Sure.
- [51:50]
Bill Smead
Again, this is telling that larger metanarrative that ultimately Jesus is the fulfillment of those promises. And one of those was through the genealogical line of King David.
- [52:04]
Steve Green
Yeah, yeah. You mentioned Moabites and Ruth. I think you're kind of referring to there a lot of fun in the Bible's claims section of the book. You talk about the significance of the Bible. Teach our listeners how big it is.
- [52:18]
Bill Smead
Yeah, the Bible makes very bold claims. It says it's going to last forever. Write a book and say your book's going to last forever and you know what kind of response you going to get. And you're going to think you're a bit of a nut head. The Bible claims it's going to last forever. It claims it's from God. Now again, if you write a book and say this is from God, you're going to be perceived as a little bit wacky. Yet over and over it says this is the word of God, that it came from God. Very bold claim. It says it's living, it's ink on paper. How can a book be living? And I believe it can say that because a living God shows up when we read it. There are many that will be able to say that they're reading through God's word, they're reading through the Bible and a verse jumps out at them and they know God's speaking to them. God may be convicting them, he may be comforting them, he may be directing them, but in some way, they believe God is directing their life through His Word. So this book makes very bold claims, and I believe it can make the living claim because a living God shows up. If this book is what it claims, if it is God's word, if it is living, and if God is giving us directions for life, it is of ultimate importance for all of us because we are still in the middle of this book story. It is still playing out. This book is claiming what's going to happen in the future, as it claimed what was going to happen and was fulfilled.
- [54:09]
Cole Smead
Sure.
- [54:09]
Bill Smead
So if this book is from God and it is guiding our, giving us guidance and direction, how we should live, and we're in the middle of this story and it's telling us about an eternal future, there is nothing that is more important for our lives than what this book has to say.
- [54:28]
Cole Smead
Agree, and let's. So here's a question. I'm gonna throw out a question to you that I can probably assume your answer, Steve, but I think it's to your point on the living part. So he's giving us his advice, his blessing, you know, as quote, unquote, like you said earlier, the K. So here's a question we've been asking a lot of our authors lately because it kind of tends to tell us your worldview, even if we're not talking about, say, a biblical context. Right? So I always ask authors, and you've heard me talk a lot about Charlie Munger. He's like my worldly wisdom patron saint, if you will. Okay. And so Munger, not long before he.
- [55:03]
Steve Green
Knew the Bible extremely well, but before.
- [55:06]
Cole Smead
He died, you know, he was asked the question, do we have enough people in this world? Are or are there too few? Okay. And Elon Musk obviously has also commented on this, and he says they both are in the camp, but we don't have enough people. I find that terribly interesting because when you think about that, if you look at what Charlie Munger supported in the past, it's kind of antithetical to what he supported at times personally. But in the other end of the camp, it's the Paul Ehrlich population bomb camp, right? Which says that, you know, this is a finite resource, we're going to ruin it. And it's a very dour, hopeless view, I would say. So I often ask our authors that because to your point, it's a worldly need, it's a worldly discussion, It's a practical discussion, but ultimately you have to decide on one of those by faith or not. Is that a fair way of looking at it?
- [55:58]
Bill Smead
Yeah. Well. And as I would think of the biblical perspective, God told Adam and Eve and tells Noah says, you know, have children and fill the earth. So there was never a concern of, but don't have too many. Just get to this point.
- [56:22]
Cole Smead
Sure.
- [56:23]
Bill Smead
I could argue that the planet is relatively empty. You could bring every human being together, stand them shoulder to shoulder, and I don't think you would fill half the city population of Jacksonville, Florida.
- [56:39]
Steve Green
Yeah, 75% of the land in the United States is uninhabited.
- [56:43]
Cole Smead
Yeah. Or I've heard, like on a standing room, like an elevator. I think someone said something crazy to me. I want to say it was like the island of Oahu or one of the Hawaiian islands. You could actually fit 6 billion people shoulder to shoulder on, which was just like mind boggling to me. And to your point, I don't know if you ever do any open road driving from Oklahoma, but I mean, the vastness of just our country alone shows you how much civilization that could be built.
- [57:10]
Bill Smead
So I would argue a relatively empty planet. God told us to multiply and fill the earth. And so am I concerned about the resources. It didn't seem that he was. So I'm not too concerned.
- [57:26]
Cole Smead
Hey, I want to give a big shout out to everyone who's been working so hard on the show. You know, we recently hit the top 10 investing podcasts on Apple Podcasts and even number one in the business category in several countries. As you may know, this show is brought to you by Smead Capital Management. Smead Capital Management understands how frustrating and illogical the stock market can be. If you are searching for funds with a proven track record, give the SMEAD funds a look. Or better yet, reach out@smeadcap.com and don't forget to mention that you're a fan of the podcast. Past performance is not indicative of future results. Investing involves risks, including loss of principal. Please refer to the prospectus for important information about the investment company, including objectives, risks, charges and expenses. Read and consider it carefully before investing. Smead funds distributed by UMB Distribution Services, llc.
- [58:18]
Not affiliated. I know you could probably go on forever. Do you have one thing that's been procured at the Museum of the Bible that you just totally gig out it every time? I'll give an example. We're book people. We love reading books. So the codex there was just like my mind was just blown. I thought it was one of the coolest things I've ever seen a museum. Do you have anything like that, that every time you see it, you just kind of gotta stop and take it in and be in awe of it?
- [58:44]
Bill Smead
Well, I'll tell you, give you two.
- [58:46]
Cole Smead
Okay.
- [58:47]
Bill Smead
One of them is more on my wife's side. We acquired Elizabeth Boone Psalter and Book of Hours. Psalter is the Book of Psalms. Book of Hours is a kind of a devotional book for different times. Prayer and common in the Catholic tradition. So highly illuminated, owned by the Astor family, at one point was put on display for the raising funds to build the base of the Statue of Liberty. We were given the statue, but we had to build the base. It was put on display to raise funds for that. So interesting history. Every page is illuminated, so it would have cost a lot of money. Elizabeth de Boone and her family did it. Elizabeth de Boone herself had an interesting life story. She was put in the Tower of London with her mother when she was 8 years old, I believe, because her mother wouldn't let the queen in the castle. There was rift between the barons and the queen. Interesting story, all that. We acquired this manuscript that she later commissioned in her life and again, a lot more to her story. But what the reason why it's my wife's favorite is because as we did research, found out that Elizabeth de Boone is her 21st great grandmother. We had no idea when we acquired it. But as we're doing research again, I can geek out on genealogy. I've done some research in her family, done some on my family, and found some of her connections and found this connection to Elizabeth de Boone. So it has an incredible significance for us and is a bit of a God wink. We felt like in this whole story, another one is not even an artifact itself. It's a replica of an artifact. And that is the replica of the Great Isaiah scroll. It was a discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls that was found in the 1940s, I believe, of the Dead Sea Scrolls, it was the one scroll that was the complete Book of Isaiah. Relatively complete. Some minor pieces here, there missing. The significance of that is what I find intriguing. Again, it's a replica. You go to the museum, see it. If you go to Israel, where they have the Dead Sea Scrolls housed, you will see a great replica there because the original's taken off display. But. But it predates Christ one to 200 years, and it was 1,000 years older than the Masoretic text that we had. And there will be some scholars that have argued that we can't rely on scripture because it's been transmitted over the years and it's like the telephone game. You know, you whisper something in somebody's ear, goes around the table and that's what we have in the scripture. It's been changed over the years. Really here is a thousand year gap. I don't know that there's anything that compares to this. It's a question I've asked, is there any other document that could compare where you have this thousand year gap and you wonder how much, how close was this book of Isaiah to what we had a thousand years later? And guess what? It was the same thing. There's some minor variations, a word order change, the spelling of a name change, but it was the same thing. Nothing changed of the content over 1000 years. The Jewish people were given a job to do. They took their job seriously. They did their job well. This is an incredible witness to that. The reliance on what we have today is incredible. And that's one of the stories. Now the other is here there are five writers in the New Testament telling us Jesus is fulfilling Isaiah 53, Isaiah 53 talking about how that Christ was going to suffer and be pierced for our transgressions. Some argue that Isaiah 53 was obviously written after Jesus because it's so clearly depicting Jesus. Until the great Isaiah scroll was discovered, it predates Christ one to 200 years. You tell me what's going to happen one to 200 years from today with the amount of specificity that Isaiah is explaining the sufferings of Christ on the cross. Now, I don't have witness to it, but the biblical timeline puts Isaiah 700 years before Christ. We have a document 200 years before Christ 1 to 200 years. But the original scripture tells us was written 700 years. You tell me what's going to happen 700 years from today.
- [63:09]
Cole Smead
Yeah.
- [63:10]
Bill Smead
That is an incredible witness that not only argues that scripture is true, I will argue it is an argument that it is divine, that is God. This one item is an incredible witness to this book that we are trying to celebrate at the museum.
- [63:29]
Cole Smead
Sure. One other story that I'd love you to tell because you know, we started our company in July of 07. We like often chuckle about, you know, where we've been in the history of our company and you know, the things that have come our way and God's blessed us with.
- [63:44]
Steve Green
In 08, my teeth were kicked so far back through the back of my head that you could see my teeth hanging out from the back.
- [63:52]
Cole Smead
So you told a really great story from a Business perspective. And because obviously, you know, obviously we're talking about your book. You're passionate also about what you've done at the Museum of the Bible, which I give you a lot of credit. It's been credible. But you're running this business, and you told a story of what it was like in the 1980s, being primarily geographically for Hobby Lobby in the oil patch, and how tough that was. Can you recant that story for our audience? Because I think it's a great story.
- [64:21]
Bill Smead
Yeah. It was in the spring of 1986 when my dad invited the family over for a family meeting. We had never had one of these. And at the time, I had my parents, mom and dad, my brother, my sister, myself, my wife. We had two cousins involved in the business, so invited us all over and sat us down in the living room and basically told us he didn't know how we'd survive. The oil Boom had busted. 1985, the year before was the one year in our history where we lost money. This was the spring of 86, when we were going into the slow time of the year. Businesses were going out left and right, and dad didn't see how that we would pay the bills. Our profits were all made in the fourth quarter. We had lost money the previous year. The situation looked dire. He talks about how that he avoided the phone that year because those calls weren't any good, and spent a lot of time just crying out to God, saying, God, if you want this company to survive, you're going to have to intervene, because I don't know how it's going to work. He had always been able to figure out how to pay the bills, but he got to the point where he didn't see how that we would be able to pay the bills. And he talks about this in his book called More Than a Hobby, how that was just a very challenging year. That year wound up being almost double the most profitable year that we had ever had. And so in hindsight, as we come out of that, lessons that dad said he would take away from that, first of all, is that he was getting to a point. We had about 12 stores at the time. Getting to the point where he felt like, I can do this. He'd worked for a national chain, and that was kind of his dream. And he's thinking, I can do this. And he just felt like God said, oh, you can, but see how well you can do it on your own. And so it was a matter of this pride building up. That was a lesson that he learned. But the other Lesson was the fact that we came. He came to the conclusion it was very real to him that this is not our business. We are only stewards of what God has entrusted to us, because were it not for God, we would not be here. And again, he would have said that beforehand. You know, this is God's business, and that's easy to say, but this made it very real. We're only stewards of what God's entrusted to us. We need to operate our business according to the principles he's given us in his word. And that has been a guiding principle for our family and a lesson that. One of those lessons that you wouldn't want to go through again.
- [67:06]
Cole Smead
Sure.
- [67:07]
Bill Smead
But you also wouldn't trade it.
- [67:09]
Steve Green
Steve Weep. We had a $50 million mutual fund at the end of 2011, and Merrill lynch put our fund on their financial advisor platform. We had virtually no one to sell to, and our fund had $50 million in it. Merrill lynch hasn't added a $50 million large cap mutual fund since then.
- [67:35]
Cole Smead
We can't prove that, but we have a strong hunch.
- [67:37]
Steve Green
I'll bet you they hadn't added one in the 10 years before that, at that size. And that's why I try to explain to people, I said, it can only be a God thing. Right? In other words. And so the challenge, and I'm sure you feel the same way, the challenge is, okay, how do I deal with our business and the financial success that comes from operating the business successfully in a way that would be pleasing to the God that decided that he was going to show mercy on us and bless us in that way. And so I can totally relate to.
- [68:13]
Bill Smead
What you're saying, you know, and I think that those stories aren't unique. Most people have stories like that where that their business has gone from this cycle of not knowing if they'd survive to great success and vice versa. And it happens more than once in many cases. And so God uses those times for our good. Going back to Joseph. Joseph sold into slavery, falsely accused, put in jail at the end of his life, he could tell his brothers that sold him into slavery what you meant for evil. God used for good. And God is a master at doing that, using the challenges that we face in our life for our own good.
- [68:59]
Cole Smead
So for our audience and our listeners, Steve, where can they follow you going forward? Do you have a book around the corner? Do you do anything on social media? Or should they just be hunting you down at the hobby lobby store to see if you're doing any channel checks?
- [69:14]
Bill Smead
Yeah, I don't do a lot of social media myself. If you want to follow what I'm most interested in, follow Museum of the Bible. That's where I spend a lot of my time. Museumofthebible.org and continue to follow us there. We're continuing to have new things going on. We have an incredible exhibit this September, a mosaic of a earliest church ever discovered that's been discovered recently, the earliest depiction of Jesus as God that will be in the museum in right now. Looks like mid September. But following the museum is the best way because I don't have much followers.
- [69:55]
Cole Smead
Well, we want to thank you for your time. I want to thank Bill for hosting this with me as well to to take us out. Steve, your book reminds me that God cares about even the smallest characters in his story and that his grace is sufficient for our own problems and the dysfunctions we cause in our own families. If you've never read a Bible, Steve, writing in this beautiful book, and also you need to visit the Museum of the Bible, you'll never have enough time, I would say, to go out and process just the historical significance of what we talked about today for that place. I highly recommend it. If you enjoyed this podcast, go to Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen to A Book with Legs, give us a review, tell others about the books and the great authors like Steve Green that we have the opportunity to understand and study the world with and through for our tribe. If you have a great book you'd like to recommend, email podcastmeadcap.com that's podcast meadcap.com you can also send your suggestion to us on X. Our handle is Meadcap. Thank you for joining us for A Book with Legs podcast. We look forward to the next episode.
- [71:01]
Podcast Host
Thank you for listening to A Book with Legs, a podcast brought to you by Smead Capital Management. The material provided in this podcast is for informational use only and should not be construed as investment advice. You can learn more about Smead Capital Management and its products@smeadcap.com or by calling your financial advisor.