← A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast 
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Heather Straughter, and this is a place of yes. In each episode, we have honest conversations about grief. The messy parts, the unexpected moments, and the ways we begin to heal through heartfelt stories and expert advice. My hope is to offer you comfort, connection, and a reminder that you don't have to navigate this alone. Today I'm joined by Kelly Dougherty, a licensed clinical social worker and grief counselor who has spent more than two decades walking alongside people in their hardest moments. Her work is rooted in thanatology, the study of death, dying, and bereavement, and guided by deep compassion and clinical expertise. In this conversation, Kelly shares what she's learned about how we carry grief over time, what it really means to move forward, and the small but powerful ways we can support each other in the wake of loss. Whether you're grieving yourself or supporting someone who is, this one offers language, perspective, and care, and I'm grateful to share it with you. I am here today with Kelly Doherty, a grief and loss expert, and she's also an author. She also has her own podcast. She's an educator, and she works on all ways that we, as humans can kind of process and understand loss. And she helps. What I really like about when I connected with Kelly is that she is very straightforward with sort of the fact that we live with grief and there's gotta be practical ways in which we coexist with it. And I'm really excited for this conversation. In a lot of the different ways that you have talked about kind of supporting people, but also that some of this has come from such a personal part of your life. You lost your mom when you were 14. You've recently lost your dad. So you're, like, doing this work with, like, a very personal, like, lens view into it. So welcome to the show. Welcome to a place of yes.
- [01:53]
B
Kelly, thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.
- [01:57]
A
We always start, always start this season with kind of this question about something that you have said yes to lately. And to give you a few minutes to think about it, I wanted. I'll start with an example I said yes to very recently. Last week, reconnecting to an old friend, someone I had not seen in 10 years. And it was not a situation in which there was, like, a falling out or anything. It was just that thing that happens in life, right? Like, you kind of different things happen and you're on different paths. And she had reached out and asked to go for a walk, and there were scheduling conflicts, and it was getting like, I was. I Was almost nervous, you know, like, when you get like, well, what if we have nothing to say? I said yes. She said yes, we made it happen. And it was so lovely and so nice to reconnect. And honestly, it made me think about. I don't want to say grief, but so much of what I think of how I look in the world is through a grief lens. And it was that whole idea that life is so short. Like, say yes. Like, it took an hour, and now it's like, I have my old friend back. So that is what I said yes to.
- [03:04]
B
Heather, I probably say yes too much. If you were to ask my husband. I need to learn to say no more. Say no.
- [03:13]
A
Well, don't we all? Right.
- [03:16]
B
But I think this year, I've taken on a lot of different things. I was working with a PR company, and they were kind of pushing me out of my comfort zone a lot, a little bit in a lot of different ways, wanting me to do more coaching and wanting me to do a podcast and all of these things. And I was like, no. Like, I was a big no to all of it at the beginning. And I continued working with them and finally saw the value in what they were talking about. I was paying them for it, but. So I said yes. And I got a coaching certification, and I just passed the exam a couple of weeks ago. So now I'm a certified coach. Thank you. In addition to my clinical license, which just allows me more opportunities. And I said yes to doing this podcast, the Grief Ladies. And so I feel like I've been saying yes to a lot of things really, outside of my comfort zone. And I'm really proud of myself for being able to do that, because these are different. You know, I. I've been so structured in, like, I'm a licensed clinical social worker. This is the way it has to be done. And to be able to become a coach and maybe do some things outside of that box, I'm really excited about and looking forward to and being able to say yes to a bunch of those things.
- [04:26]
A
It is. It's kind of scary at first. Right? Like, because it does especially things outside of our comfort zone. But I don't know. Sometimes those end up being the most rewarding. Right.
- [04:34]
B
But I will.
- [04:35]
A
I will second that. Sometimes I. I kind of. I stole this line from, like, a peloton coach, but, like, it's like, sometimes you have to say no to protect your yes. So saying no, I also think is something we need to be cognizant of.
- [04:47]
B
Yes.
- [04:48]
A
But can you. Let's start kind of. And I don't know if this is like the beginning with your grief or just the beginning of sort of your career, but. But what first drew you into this work? Like, what did you. Like, why are you here? Like, why did you enter this kind of world of therapy and grief therapy?
- [05:04]
B
Yeah. So, like you mentioned, my mom died when I was 14. She died of breast cancer. And I really struggled after that. I was a hot mess to be completely hon. I was crying myself to sleep most nights. I was really struggling with my relationship with my dad at the time. My dad was an alcoholic and really active in his addiction at that point. And my sisters moved out, so it was just him and I, and we didn't really have a relationship before my mom died. He was the breadwinner. My mom took care of us. And so I was all of a sudden having to navigate this life without my mom and with this man that I really didn't know all that well. But the one good thing is my dad knew I was struggling, and I went to an all girls Catholic high school, and so he knew I was boy crazy at 15 years old. And he told me that I needed to go to a hospice grief group because I was very angry and really struggling and I didn't want to go. And I was like, no, I'm not going. He's like, there'll be boys at the group. And I was like, oh, okay.
- [06:07]
A
Well, in that case.
- [06:10]
B
Yeah. Well, I walked into that room and there were no boys. Of course I can still remember walking into that room. I think I was one of the last ones there. The girls were all already there and sitting around, and I finally, like, I could, like, breathe, like, oh, I am not the only one who's going through this. And the social worker was amazing. Rini was her name. And like, every time I left, I was like, do you have a book I can read? Like, I just wanted to really understand what I was going through and what I really have to wonder. Like, I bet you she ran out of books to give me because I was, like, just trying to absorb it all and trying to make sense of it. So after my dad did get sober pretty quickly after that because I threatened to run away. And so he said he would stop drinking even though he didn't think he had a problem. And two years later, he did get into aa, and I'm so grateful because at the time of his death, he was sober for almost 30 years and in AA for almost 28. And I truly believe if my mom hadn't died, first of all, he would have died way sooner, and I would have never had the relationship I got to have with him. So that is one of the benefits for me that came out of my mom's death was to have that relationship with my dad. But so after we did a lot of family counseling, I did all of this group counseling. The social worker, she asked me to start volunteering with the children's programs. And I can still remember some of those kiddos, and some wouldn't even walk into the room without me there. And I just had such a connection to them. And that's when I was like, this is what I want to do. This is what I am meant to do. And so I, you know, wrote my essay for college and was like, I'm going to become a social worker and a grief counselor, and I'm going to work for hospice. And so I did it.
- [07:54]
A
That's. I mean, what an incredible story. And I, like, you know, first, you know, 14 is hard. You throw in loss, you throw in, like, complicated relationships. All of that is so much.
- [08:05]
B
But what a.
- [08:06]
A
Kind of, like you said, like, I love your outlook on it. And I think that's gotta be so valuable to so many people that you work with in that way where that you figure out that sometimes through our loss, these other sort of avenues that we would not have been in could have happened. And you know what I mean, like, so now you had this relationship with your dad that you didn't previously have. And I think that viewpoint, and I think so much of what I think is your sort of, like, methodology or your. Your work is from that point of view. And I just really think that's so valuable. Like, it's so important. Right? Because I do think that so often we think of only the negative. And of course, like, loss is horrible. It's hard, and in some cases, it just feels like it's not what was supposed to happen. But if you can kind of sit with it and live with it, you can kind of see these different. I don't say it makes it better, but it's like you said, it's like these other things that happen. I know when we had talked before and you had talked about one of the things, and this really stood out for me, like, one of the catalysts of sort of what you wanted to do and how you wanted to do it a little bit differently was you mentioned that when your. When your mom died, the school you were at, I think you said, like, just did not get it right. And you kind of Wanted to do it.
- [09:17]
B
I screwed up.
- [09:19]
A
So can you share that a little bit? Because I think sometimes it's, you know, it's just as valuable to know the things that were horrible so, you know, not to do them, whether it's professionally or personally or whatever. So can you share some of that? Yeah.
- [09:31]
B
So ninth grade, brand new school, all girls really struggling to fit in. I'll be completely honest. I went through some not great scenarios with friends. I really didn't. I think I was struggling so much with knowing my mom was so sick at home and navigating this new school that I really didn't like, to be honest. And I forgot my lab book in biology class. And I was sitting in the front row because my last name was Barry. And the teacher said in front of the entire classroom, I don't care if your mom's at home dying of cancer, you need to have your biology lab book here. And I didn't know. Wow. Like, I just remember staring at that black desk thinking, like, she did not just do this. Like, she did not. And one of my friends that I'm very good friends with, today we talk about it, and she's like, helly. At that time, I wasn't friends with her. She didn't know who I was. And she was like, I just sat there feeling so awful for you. I couldn't believe that she had said that. And so there was, like, strike number one for that school, Right? And then my mom died over the summer. Nobody from the school came to the services. My dad notified the school, Nobody came, went back to school. First day of school, we had our back to school mass. And as I've mentioned, my relationship with my dad was not great. So keep that in mind. And they said, let's pray for Kelly Berry's father who died over the summer.
- [11:07]
A
Oh, Kelly.
- [11:10]
B
So I had girls coming up to me all day long saying, oh, I'm so sorry about your dad. And here's angry Kelly. Like, angry teenage Kelly who hates her dad at this point. Right. And I was like, emma's my dad, the dad. Like, that was so.
- [11:26]
A
Oh, my God.
- [11:27]
B
And. But, like, there was also a big part of me, like, when my dad and I would get into screaming matches, and I'm not proud to submit this, but I'm vulnerable, and I'll share it because it's how I felt at the time. I wanted my dad to have died instead of my mom.
- [11:39]
A
Yeah, you wanted to swap it.
- [11:40]
B
Yeah, exactly. Because my mom was everything. She was wonderful. Like, there's, you know, no One's perfect. But my mom was pretty damn close to me. Perfect, in my opinion, in a lot of ways, at least to me. My sisters, I think, had a bit of a different mom at times, but, you know, so it was just. It was. It was awful. And then it was just continued. There was other issues with other teachers making statements. You know, my guidance counselor did the best I think she could with, you know, calling me in, but she waited a few months to reach out to me and then asked, like, is it okay for me to tell your. The other teachers? Well, yeah, you should have told them, like, probably three months ago. So. So that is, like, I'm so passionate about making school personnel grief informed because these stories, as awful as they sound, they still happen today. Yep.
- [12:34]
A
I mean, those are. That's crazy, right? You know, and I know, you know, and it's funny, like, sometimes I try to look through a lens of, like, you know, people don't know better, and we have to educate them and stuff. But some of that is just bad. I mean, like, it's hard to make an excuse for some of that. So, first off, I'm sorry that that was your experience. Like, that sucks. But also, like, how. How it must be so motivating for you. Right. Like, in the fact that I. I feel like even when you were telling that, like, I could see, like, you can go right back to that minute. Like, there are those things that happen to us, particularly, I think, in our, like, coming of age. Right. Like, as we're teenagers, and those things that you just can vividly remember. And I'm. I could almost tell you can go right back to that. So it's like the impact that people can have and, like, the heartbreak and the, like, awfulness. So what?
- [13:26]
B
To be honest, last year they did on Facebook last year, the year before, they highlighted this teacher, by the way. And, like, yeah, and, like, we're celebrating her and honoring her. And some of my classmates were like, she was the best. She's the reason I'm in this. And I wanted to be like, she was the worst. And this is what she did to me. Like, I was so. And this is why I. Yeah, I would be the everything. And my sister's like, I want to call her out. I want to say her name. I'm like, no, we're not doing that.
- [13:54]
A
We're going to take the high road. It's so. You know, it's funny because it's one of those things a little bit that I don't want to say. It's common Sense, because it's only common sense if you're kind of in it and think about it. But in so many ways, it just kind of is, right? Like, we want to support kids, we want to support students. So obviously, everybody they interact with has to be involved in it and connected with it. And I just think there's so much of what you said that personally, it was so, like, it took me back to that, you know, that, like, when I talked about, like, Ethan going to school and, you know, we were fortunate in the sense that his kindergarten teacher had lost a sibling when she was a child. So, I mean, what a. You just can't make it up, right? Like, it was like, I was like, this is a sign. Like, this is something. I still think that way. So she would sometimes, like, send me a text and be like, hey, Ethan's gonna stay after school. Come like 15 minutes later. And they would just sit and draw pictures or every. You know what I mean? Just like. So not like art therapy. Nothing formalized, not any of this, but just exactly kind of what you.
- [15:04]
B
But connection.
- [15:05]
A
Connection. And like, some days, like, he wasn't a big talker. He's still a 20. Not a big talker about his feelings, particularly around the loss of his brother, but, like, knew some of the things. And she knew some of the behaviors were not actually were just how he was feeling, like just a. An action. So the fact that, you know, some of these things, I think they're so important particularly. Well, actually, I don't. I'm take this back. I was going to say particularly, like in elementary school, but probably even more so in, like, middle school when you've got the, like, hormones and you, you know, you've got everything else that's changing and then all of a sudden, this big loss. And just to be thoughtful, honestly, Heather.
- [15:41]
B
It'S all like, even colleges, right? So last week I did a presentation at Russell Sage on grief informed universities because less than 100 colleges in the United States have a student bereavement policy. So if a kid has a parent die. Less than 100. Wow. So if a kid dies or if a kid has a family member die, it's up to the professors how they handle it. That seems crazy. I had a kiddo that had to take a picture a selfie at the funeral. Just give to the professor.
- [16:17]
A
Wow. Like, that's insane.
- [16:21]
B
So this is. This is like, in my opinion, all schools need to have. Have. Need to have policies in place because we also know children regrive at every developmental age and stage. And so, like, I worked with a little girl when she was 6. Worked with her for a very long time. Cause she had a ton of loss, like, way too much for any child should have to have. And then I discharge her, and then something comes up in her life, and then she comes back, you know, and then she was a senior in high school, and she texts me now at this point, you know, and she's like, you know, I'm. I'm kind of freaking out about graduating. Like, without them there. Can I come back in? Yep. So we come back in now. She's. She's 22. I feel really old. But. But like, it's not. It hasn't been all these years. It's just when, like, I call Em, like little boosters, like she needs to come back in because something new's coming up in her life.
- [17:12]
A
But it's. And I think.
- [17:14]
B
I'm sure you go through that right as you go.
- [17:15]
A
That's our difference. Not just kids, you know, Like, I just had this whole piece where you were, like, talking about Mother's Day and her birthday. The same. Like, you know, so Mother's Day and Jake's birthday always fall within, you know, four or five days of each other. And I just hate it. I hate all of it. Like, it just makes me, like, grumpy and mopey and like, I'm not, you know, like, I'm on the surface being fine, but, like, it. They're hard. And it doesn't matter age or length or any of that, I think. I mean, I love that work that you're doing. And I just think it's important for people, like, you know, the listeners to sort of know, because I think on one of the things I like to think about with this show, and I was kind of excited for this conversation, is because it's helpful for those grieving, but it's also helpful for everybody because we all know people who are in it, right? Like, we all know people who've lost somebody. And just because I've lost somebody doesn't mean I'm always the. That I always know what to say or, you know, we all get kind of, like, anxious and quirky and weird around what to say and what not to say and how to think about it. So these conversations and these, again, I hate saying common sense, but these, like, sort of common sense approaches to grief that are like, real life. Like, of course, like, let's. It's kind of like, let's not make it a big deal, but also make it a big deal at the same time. Right. Like, the things you're describing are not. Are such small things that can make such a big difference, if that makes sense. You know what I mean? Like, they're not. Like, it's just ways we can make people feel better. On this show, we have covered over, you know, since the beginning, and even really in this season, we've talked to, you know, we cover child loss, obviously, just. Even if it's just me talking, but, like, you know, that's a big topic. But we've talked to other people who've had child loss. We've talked about loss by suicide. We've talked about, you know, that sudden, unexpected loss that you don't see coming. And we've talked about the other kind of loss where you sort of know someone is going to die. We've talked about, you know, just. Even in anticipatory grief, like, someone's really, really sick and you're kind of almost grieving them before they're gone. All of them are so different. How do you. Like, you don't, you know, as different people come to you, different clients come to you. Like, how do you help them navigate that? Because it's not like a one size fits all, I think, you know, there's all these different things. So how do you. How do you treat them differently? How do you approach them?
- [19:49]
B
Well, I think the majority of my clients are bereaved. Right. So they've already experienced the debt sometimes. I have some anticipatory grief clients, but the majority of them, they've already experienced the loss. And I say the majority of my clients have also had some sort of traumatic loss. So suicide loss or overdose loss or sudden or, you know, so there's the trauma piece. So thankfully, I have a lot of trauma training over the years, and so I know how to address that. Like, I think not all grief counselors have that trauma lens as well, which can be really difficult, because what I find, and I know it's not about me, but my goal for my clients really is to be able to help them shift their mindset from focusing on the death, the ending, because that's what our brain loves to do. It loves to stay focused on that ending. It gets stuck with it, right? Images, things that we think we could have done to be able to shift to focusing on their loved one's life and remembering the memories, remembering that they can still stay connected to them. And so that's kind of my goal with them. But it's about meeting them where they're at. And I would say like, this is generally what I kind of do. First session is an intake. Building that rapport, getting to know them, kind of seeing where they're at, learning, getting to know their loved one, having them introduce them to me, share their name, you know, share pictures. I. I tell all the therapists that I train. Like, I use a. We all, pretty much, a lot of us use a very similar software for our electronic health records. And I always say, like, I put in an administrative note their loved one's name, their loved one's birthday, and their loved one's date of death. So then that way I can be reminded of that, right? Because that's what we want. We want to hear our loved one's name. We want to talk about them. And I think it's really important as a therapist that we do use their. Their names. And actually, overall, everybody should be using their loved one. You know, the deceased loved ones.
- [21:42]
A
It's so funny because I always think people. And I feel like it's getting a little bit better, but people are afraid to sit. Like, for years, for like a decade, people would just say, like, oh, your son. I'm sorry for your loss. Or like, you know, whatever. Like, no, it's Jake. You know, exactly, you know, and it's funny. I talked to one early on, a conversation where someone was kind of like. And it made me laugh out loud and. But she was like, it's like, they think we forgot they died, and by saying their name, you're going to remind us. And I just laughed, but I'm like, I think that's almost it sometimes. Like, you're not reminding us. Like, we know it. Like, it's so great to hear someone say their name or talk about them.
- [22:19]
B
One of my mentors from my running program said a couple of weeks ago in a session, and I haven't looked up this quote, but I need to. And it was something like, your loved one dies twice. The first time that they die and the second time, people stop talking about them and saying their name.
- [22:33]
A
I've heard something like that before, and I entirely agree. Like, and I think those of us who are still here, right? Like, it's like my mission, right? Like, you know, even, like, Jake's help from heaven. Like, I. I feel like I force people to have to say his name, you know, or force myself to say it, too. Also, people think that it's going to make us sad.
- [22:52]
B
When we're grieving, we're already sad. Like, them saying their name isn't going to make us any more sad. 100% for the majority of us. Not everybody. The majority of us are going to be happy that we've got to hear their loved one's name. I mean, last year, I was at a funeral, and a neighbor of ours from our childhood came up and told a story about my mom that I never heard. She said I had the flu. And your mom just showed up. She made all the beds, and she made breakfast for the kids, and she just stepped it. And I was like, it was such a nice, like, all these years later to hear a new story about my mom. Like, I just loved that. That's awesome.
- [23:26]
A
I mean, it almost gave me chills because it's like, you don't get that often, you know, and you. And. And. And you said something earlier that. That was very, you know, you said how, like, we get stuck, like Grievers, right? You get stuck in that space. You get stuck in that time, date, whatever happened around the death. And I know I do. Like, when I want to get myself, like, in a dark space, I can. I go through that night. And, you know, and at this point, I don't know. You know, memories can be tricky, right? Like, is it really what happened? Is it not what happened? Is it. You know, I don't know. Like, I don't know. Doesn't really matter. But you can just relive those moments, and it's. It's important to have the tools to get out of that, you know, Because I do think it's the hardest part about grief, right, is not letting yourself get stuck and letting yourself move through the different stages where you can. Or not different stages, but, like, move in and out of that.
- [24:22]
B
Heather, don't go down the street. Yes. I'm hearing myself talking about get on my soapbox.
- [24:27]
A
No, but, like, that whole idea that you're not going in one direction, right? Like, you're kind of dabbling here, and then you're feeling better, and then you're kind of like, oh, my God, I feel horrible again. And I'm a big believer. I talk about it on the show a lot of, like, embracing the dark. Like, embracing, like, when I need to go back and be, like, really sad and mad about something, it's okay to be there, but knowing how to get out, right? And I think that some of that, you know, you touched on it, like, being able to support people in the trauma around loss. Because it's not just. There is a traumatic piece there. There is. Especially when we're talking about unexpected or you're talking about, like, suicide and overdose. You Know, you kind of mentioned some of these other things or take that even out of it. Just someone was hit by a car. There was a car accident. Like, you know, I mean, like these, these things that it's hard to. There's the loss and the grief that you live with forever, but then there's like the trauma around that. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because I do think there's this intersection that is not always discussed.
- [25:32]
B
Can I get vulnerable here? And hopefully I won't get emotional because I'm coming up on the one year anniversary. So my dad was 90 years old when he died. I had an older dad. He was 46 when he had me. So people thought he. When he went to pick up my baptism cake, people thought it was for his grandchild. And my mom was a little younger. And so my dad. So obviously I always knew in like the back of my mind, okay, he's gonna die one day, right? We celebrated his 90th birthday together in April of 24. And he was doing great, you know, really looked great. Had some minor aches and pains and things like that. And July, he went to the hospital and found out had metastatic prostate cancer. And so I flew down as soon as I found out. And over the next four months, he steadily declined and had him in a rehab. We had to move him to assisted living. We weathered a hurricane together, all sorts of like. And he just was continuing to decline. So he went pretty quickly. And he fell and broke his hip. Which seems like these older people, it's. They fall, they break their hip or they get a brain bleed and then it's just. It's so quick. And so a couple of weeks after that, he was back in the hospital again with pneumonia again. Pneumonia, I think. And that's also.
- [26:58]
A
Yeah.
- [26:59]
B
Oh, it was just constant. Like, I don't know how many times he had it from July to November. It was. It was crazy. So I flew down, I told him he was going into hospice. And we sat in his hospital room and we talked about what that meant. And he thought he had a few more years. And they came, brought him. It was the worst moment, one of the worst moments of my life was watching him be wheeled out of the hospital knowing he was going to the hospice house. And we got there and he was putting on the charm. And I'm. I'm in another room. They had me in like the family room. And I'm listening to him. I'm like, he is lying. Like, he's just flat out lying. And they were like, can you get out of bed? He's like, oh, yeah, I can get out of bed. I can walk around. No, I can't.
- [27:51]
A
I can't.
- [27:52]
B
And so the nurse came into me, and she's like, you know, Kelly. And so I was like, let that. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Let me fill you in on what's going on, FYI.
- [28:01]
A
Yeah.
- [28:01]
B
Yeah. So I let her know, and she's like, well, I'm. You know, we're gonna assess, but in a few days, I wouldn't be surprised that the social worker comes to you and says he needs somewhere else, that this isn't the right space for him. I'm like, okay, whatever. She's like, a nursing home. She's like, probably. I'm like, yep, whatever. I'm not listening to you. Like, like, I worked for hospice. Like, I know a little bit, right? So I. The next morning, he was sleeping, and the nurse said he had a terrible night. And she said it was like a light switch went off. I think he knew what he was there to do, and he just plummeted. And he woke up and saw me and started actively dying. And it was. Heather, it was traumatic. It was not peaceful. It was not a beautiful death like other people talk about. It was probably 15 minutes of trauma for me. Okay. You were just there. Yep, I was there holding his hand as he was gasping for his breath and just awful. And I was by myself. And the nurses were fabulous. I don't even know who these people were. I don't. I don't even. I could pass them and I wouldn't even. They just met me. Yep. And she said to me, you know, she came in with more medicine, and she's like, he's taking his last breath. And so his last breath was peaceful, but the leading up to it was not. And it was traumatic, you know? Yes. He was older and he was. You know, we knew that this was happening, but those few. Those last moments were not good. And I was supposed to have a session with a brain spotting coach the next day, but I had canceled it because I knew I was going down. And I was thinking I was going to be at the hospice house all week, you know, and I was going to be like, my other sister was flying in the next day. Like, I just thought we. This was going to be.
- [29:51]
A
Thought it was going to be different.
- [29:52]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Not a great week.
- [29:54]
A
Right.
- [29:55]
B
And so after he died and after we left this. The hospice house, I contacted the brain spotting coach, and I said, is that appointment still available tomorrow? And she said, yes. And I said, okay, I need to see you because my dad just died. And from what I've learned from my clients is I didn't want to be stuck on that ending. I didn't want that to be the way I remembered my dad. I wanted to be able to sit and picture him on his couch overlooking the marina in his condo that he loved. And that's what I want, to remember him. And that's what I do now. And I had that session the next day. I almost threw up twice during it. I will be forever grateful to this woman for allowing me to process that and not getting it stuck in my brain.
- [30:41]
A
So can you describe what brain spotting is?
- [30:46]
B
Yeah. So it's a trauma resolution technique. There's several different ones. But basically your brain, if you watch people when they talk, sometimes when they're accessing a memory, they look a certain way, like with their eyes, you know, mine's always seems to be up here. I always go this way.
- [31:01]
A
Thank you.
- [31:01]
B
Yeah. And so when you just hold that spot and you think about it, you process it out and process it out. And it's like layer after layer. And the brain spotting coach doesn't really do much. She just sits there and, you know, supports you. And I mean, it was a 90 minute session. Like I said, I almost threw up twice. Like, it was intense. And just wave after wave, and when you think you're good, then another wave, like. And so it's just reprocessing it. It's helping you think about it differently. So what I always explain with my clients when I do trauma resolution work is trauma, like, shatters it like puzzle pieces throughout our brain. So that's why there's little things that come up, sounds or smells or colors. Right. And it triggers something in our brain and it's one of those puzzle pieces. So when we do trauma resolution work, we put all those trauma memories back together, all the puzzle pieces back together. And then it goes in long term memory so it doesn't have to have that emotional response anymore. Like, for years, I always got a pit in my stomach when I thought about my mom when I saw her for the last time. And that was what I always felt, that, like, stick feeling. I'm an internalizer, like, stomach issues, you know, for years after my mom died. And I can think of that memory now because I did something called progressive counting, which I'm. I'm trained in. And I. It's just a memory. Just like my dad's is a memory. Is it sad that watching him Go, you know, Yes. I can't take away somebody's memories, but we don't have to have that trauma have such a hold over us.
- [32:37]
A
I think your story is so important for listeners though too, because I think that when we think something is traumatic, it is. Or maybe I'm just speaking for myself, but like, I think of trauma, like, I think it's something big and unexpected and huge. And your story is so on point and I'm, I'm sorry that you had that with your dad. Right. Like, that's hard and. But it's so important for listeners to recognize that it does not. Because I think some people, you know, and I do this when I talk about, like, my, my, like father in law and mother in law who've passed. I'm like, oh, but they had a good run, you know, they were 87. It doesn't make it easier. Right? Like, it doesn't make it okay. It doesn't mean, like, because you've passed a certain age threshold, that it's not traumatic or sad or horrible. And I think that's such a important thing for people to understand and for, to recognize in themselves and to give themselves that space. Right. And, and were able to do that sort of work because it doesn't matter that he was 90. It matters that your dad died, you know?
- [33:41]
B
Exactly.
- [33:42]
A
I think that's so. Because I fall victim of that too. Like, I'll say the things of like, oh, what a good run, you know, or, oh, we could be so lucky to live that age, you know, like those things. But it's, it's still loss and it's still traumatic. So I, I thank you for sharing that because I think that's really important for people to hear and to recognize both in how they talk to others and also what they allow for themselves.
- [34:03]
B
Well, and talking to others, yes, because some of the things that people said to me after my dad died, they'd be like, oh, how old was he? And I was like, he was 90. Oh, well, yeah, I had a good, he had a good, he had a good life. That's the. I'm like, that doesn't mean that I'm not freaking grieving. Of course my dad died and like, my dad and I went through a lot together like this. And then what I found for me in the last year is I'm re. Grieving my mom all over again and thinking now I feel like an orphan, to be completely honest. Like, you know, you have that, like, person that's there for you if something happens. Like, you have that support. You have somebody that's going to love you. And now I don't, I don't have either one of my parents. And you know, it's. And I get jealous when I hear other people complaining about their parents that are older than me that have their moms and their dads still and. And I just wish I could, you know, I mean, I've always been, I think, a little jealous when I see moms and daughters because I don't know what it would have ever been like to have a relationship with my mom as an adult.
- [35:12]
A
And there's no way, like it's human nature to some degree, right? Where we. You miss what you don't have and you miss it the most when it was taken away from you, right? Like, I have that feeling when so many of my friends have more than one child, right? And they have like sibling, you know, they complain about like, oh my God, they won't stop bickering. Like, Ethan never got that. Like, I never got to see that. I used to. And it's interesting when you were talking about like images and memories and all of these things and this was never a memory, but it was something that I. And I've talked about this before, but it's. I used to always picture it like I couldn't wait for like Jake to kind of catch up and be a walker because I was like, I can't wait to walk on the beach with both boys, right? Like, and I had just vision in my head of like walking on a beach. I don't know why, but like one in each hand, right? Like in the waves that are, you know, the water at our feet. And it wasn't a real memory, but that picture in my head is as crystal clear as though it was real. And I mean, Jake's got sick at eight months. Like he never, he never took steps. Like none of that is actually real. But like I have this picture and it's interesting, right? Like, it's just what our brains do and what our. How we connect and how we process and all of those things. This kind of, I feel like, is a good segue. And I've been very excited to talk to you about this about. But the induced after death communication that you do. And I feel, I don't know that it's as much of a segue to others as it is to me, but as we're talking about these things, like, I just feel like. And even that picture, like, I just. Is that Jake coming back and telling me, like, is he putting that picture in my head, I don't know. Right.
- [36:45]
B
Yes.
- [36:46]
A
Okay.
- [36:47]
B
You know, and so I'm just coming off of a retreat this weekend, so I'm a little raw probably from it. But we had six women this past weekend where we were with them up at Silver Bay YMCA up in Lake George for the weekend from Friday to Sunday. And we incorporated induced after death communications. So it is a type of therapy. It's a pretty intensive type of therapy, actually. I call like this past weekend like therapy on steroids, probably because it is a lot. But Botkin, Alan Botkin, developed it. He was working at the VA as a psychologist, working with veterans. And he had been trained in emdr. And for those of people that don't know what EMDR is, it's eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. It's kind of the gold standard of trauma treatment. It's been around since the 90s. It was developed by Francine Shapiro. He was one of the earlier therapists who got trained in it, knew. So he went back to the va, was playing around with it, started using it with veterans, focusing on core focused sadness of losing their comrades and their, their loved ones. And they all of a sudden started having spontaneous after death communications. Smells or sounds or visions of their loved ones. And so he's like, what is going on? So he started asking the other staff there. They started practicing it and figuring out, and they were all having it. Like over 90% in the VA were having these after death communications. And so it's. He developed it and he's done research. There's been. Janice Holden has done some great research on it and Tom Nemi and somebody in Italy who's just on it. And it's, in my opinion, it's not as well known as it should be because it's freaking amazing. It's life changing. And so one of my clients went to a medium and was told, you need to do emdr. And she goes, oh, well, I work with a therapist who does emdr. And he's like, great, but you need to give her this book. And it's the, it's the After Death communication book. And so she tells me about it. I'm like, oh, I love it. Like, I love this kind of stuff. I'm in. You can't, you can't work in hospice and do grief work and not believe that there isn't something that happens after you die. Right? So even my dad, there was some weird things that he had, visions and all that stuff, which I was like, oh, tell Me more like I loved that part. But so I read this book, I loved it, I got trained in it and I started using it and things, wild things started happening in my office. And one of my colleagues was also at the same time doing a documentary on after death communication. And so I was like, you got to get trained in this. So she got trained in it. And we've developed these retreats and so they're a weekend long and they include rituals, shamanic rituals. They also include reiki sessions. And then we do two 90 minute IDC sessions, one on Saturday and one on Sunday. That's the protocol is two 90 minute sessions. First day you focus on the sadness of the loss, you stay with it. Like, you don't really stay with them, like so much the memories, it's more the feeling of the sadness. Because what they say and what they claim is that the anger and the guilt and the other emotions kind of block us, okay, from feeling the sadness because it's easier to put beat ourselves up with coulda woulda showed us right than it is to sit with that sadness. Like you were saying, when you want to sit with it, right? Not everybody wants to sit with it. And so we avoid it, but when we sit with it, then it will peak. And then people come down and feel more peaceful and more calm, which then makes them more open to having an after death communication. And after death communications are naturally occurring. They come in mostly form of dreams. Heather, have you ever had a visitation dream, do you think?
- [40:35]
A
Totally, Absolutely. I mean, I wish I had more, but I've had. I was waiting. I was waiting for like a year plus, because I was like, why aren't.
- [40:45]
B
You coming to my own dream?
- [40:46]
A
And then I had one. And then I had one not too long ago, like, I don't know, maybe like a year and a half. And it was like he spoke to me and it was the only time I'd ever heard his voice because he didn't speak when he was here. And I was like. Like, I can't even tell you the feeling of peace I had. Like, I wrote him a letter because I do this, like these letters to Jakey sometimes. And I wrote him about it because I was like, that was amazing. And he told me he gave me a message to give to Brian, which of course then I spaced on and didn't give it for like days because I was like.
- [41:14]
B
Because I was like, you were just.
- [41:16]
A
I was like, just in it. Like, I was. And then I was like, no. And I wrote about it, like in the letter. So like, and then he's like, hey, do you have something to tell me? And I was like, oh, sorry.
- [41:24]
B
Yeah. But so that's how you know it was a visitation dream because you can remember it like that. Okay. Okay. So you know, sometimes we have dreams, they're in it, right? But like I had a dream about my mom after 9 11, and there was just a light behind her. And she just held me. And I emailed my sister the next day and I was like, I was working for hospice at the time and I was like, I gotta call you tonight and tell you about this dream about mom. And she emailed me back and, and wrote the dream out and it was the same one.
- [41:53]
A
Oh my God.
- [41:54]
B
So. And I mean, we're what, 24 years later and I can still remember it.
- [41:58]
A
Like that and that same one on the same night. Wow.
- [42:04]
B
So that's like. So that's a good example of an after death communication. Usually the common dreams. Sometimes it's. They say when a memory pops into your head, like you just had, you know, like when think that picture. Right. Thinking about that. Right. Sometimes it smells. Like this past weekend at this retreat, I kept smelling like incense from the church. And I was like, what is that smell? And that where you use sage and all sorts. And it wasn't that, it was like definitely incense. And so I don't know what that meant. I don't know if it was one of the other participants. Her mom was really religious, so really maybe it was in the Catholic faith, maybe it was her like coming through. But like I kept smelling that. Other people, like, you know, they love signs, the cardinals, things like that. So there's all different after death communications. But when you, you are able to like push through that sadness and really feel it, then you're more open to having them.
- [42:56]
A
So when you say like that the first, you know, so the first 90 minutes, like on the, on the Saturday or whatever day it is, is the sadness. Like, do you, is that like they sit there and do you do like, do you talk to them? Like, how do you get them there? Like, is it just.
- [43:11]
B
So we're using, we're using the eye movements. So it's not emdr. You know, EMDR does not endorse this modality, but you're using bilateral stimulation, so eye movements or tapp like this. And you're asking them, you ask them a couple of questions to start with, just to kind of get them into that sadness. And then you stay with it and you just process and process and process and it's intense. In my opinion, when we do these, these retreats, they're probably the most intense sessions of my career, to be completely honest. They're different than in my office. And I don't know if it's because of what we've created. We're in community, we're doing rituals. We have, you know, we're opening up ritual space and altars and things like that. So I don't know if it's like, whatever we're do. I'll just call it woo Woo, Heather. Whatever Woo Woo stuff we're doing, I don't know. But like, those sessions are. Whoa. And maybe it's also because they're there and they know what they're doing and they're also not going home. Like, you know, it's easy when you do it here in your. In the office. Like, if you came and saw me here, right? We could do it. And then you go home. You'd have to go home to your husband. You'd have to go home to, like, dinner.
- [44:18]
A
You go do, like, you go do whatever.
- [44:19]
B
But exactly, like, when you're home at that retreat, you're there. So. Yeah. So this first day is the sadness. The second day, we continue with the sadness. If there's left. Honestly, at our retreat, at least session two is like that. It's less than an hour because the majority of our clients started having EDCs on Saturday. Okay. So some have dreams that night.
- [44:46]
A
And so when they start to have these experiences, do they share them with each other? And, like, is that part of the whole thing too?
- [44:52]
B
So, like, like, so these are all individual sessions.
- [44:54]
A
Okay.
- [44:55]
B
So we're meeting with them individuals. So they kind of go through, like, they go through journaling. They either go to Reiki or they're doing idc and they rotate through it through the day, and then we gather together. We don't really let them talk too much about it until, like, the second day. Because we don't want to influencer. Like, exactly. And you want to let go of, like, expectations, like, because everybody's going to experience an ADC differently, you know, Like, a lot of the ones I saw this weekend were very visual, but some it's more like a knowing or a feel. Like someone felt their loved ones, like, brush their arm. So everybody experiences it differently. So we don't want the comparison. And we don't, you know, and you really feel bad.
- [45:36]
A
Like, oh, why'd they get a cold one? And I didn't get that.
- [45:38]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, Heather, we had audio, so the Way the room we're in. So it's like a main room where we have the altar and the, the, the fireplace. And then there's two breakout rooms where I'm in one and the other therapist is in another with the clients. We have music on in the middle just for like sound and sound machines going, right? And because these are old buildings we're in. And the music was playing a song. It was on a three and a half hour track on YouTube. And I would say halfway through Saturday one, a Saturday session, it was two moms we were working with. It went to a completely different track and we came out and I was like, what the heck was that about? And she's like, look what it went to. And it went to release fear and anxiety. That was the track it switched to. Like, how. And then those same people. Well, it was a family member of one of them. They were in Reiki on Sunday and the thing did the same thing. Went to some weird music again. Like, so there's just. You can't explain some of it.
- [46:43]
A
And I know it sounds wild, but it's awesome, right? Like, it's so like, for me, like I. And we've talked about this, you know, like, I just, I didn't know anything that this was even sort of a thing, right? Like, I didn't know cardinals were a thing. I thought it was just all of a sudden I saw them and I was like, hey, Jake. You know, like I just like. But I do think these signs and so many people that I talk to on the show and through just other avenues of grief, like just people that I've known, it's such. If you let yourself lean into it or feel it, like it's just such a. It's a really great feeling, right? Like, it's just really comforting. And I think for so long, like, you know, you kind of said like, oh, it's like woo, woo, or whatever, and people block that. They don't want to do that. But like, what a beautiful world it can be, right? Like, if we think about like the fact that, yes, they're not here, but they're still meaningfully connected to us and we are meaningfully connected to them. And, and I don't know, it makes it feel less hard, I guess. Or at least for me, it makes it feel less hard. Like.
- [47:44]
B
So can I tell you one thing that is wild that happened this weekend? Yes, absolutely. There was a lot of discussion about finding joy again, right? Like, that was really the theme of the weekend from these participants. And the fire would not start Saturday morning for some reason, like, it was just not start. We were trying to start it, trying to get ready for the day. Everybody's in there, and the fire just wouldn't start, start. And so this one girl's trying to help get the fire started and everything. And then all of a sudden, this piece of paper. Now we're putting things in. I don't even know what was in the box that, like, the YMCA gave us that, like this, you know. Yeah. The paper and all. So we throw it at. All of a sudden, this paper flies out of, like. Like fire flies out of the fireplace towards this girl. And she picks it up and it says love life on it. And it's, like, all burnt around the edge, but just says love life. And then at the bottom, which we didn't realize, said unity. Oh. And so we're like, oh, this is our theme love life. We go to lunch right after, you know, after a couple sessions, and I walk in, and the woman serving us our lunch in the cafeteria has a hat on. And the last line on the hat says, love life. And I'm like, oh, my God. And it was just like, all of these love things, all we can learn all this, like, different signs. And it was like. So that was our theme. Yes.
- [49:07]
A
And if everybody. Because that is such a big piece and people, like, we talk about this a lot. Like, people struggle with. How do you find joy after loss? Especially not especially, but a lot of times, grieving moms, right. Like, child loss. Like, how can I possibly be happy again? How can I possibly, like, let myself have fun? You know? So it's that whole balance of, like, you live your life with these two feelings, and you can have great joy and you can still be very sad. And so for that to be the theme and then all these, like, messages coming through. I think that's so cool. I love that.
- [49:39]
B
It was amazing. Like, it was like. I mean, all the things that could have shot out at the. I mean, it, like, shot out, like.
- [49:45]
A
Like, hey, well, sometimes we need the obvious, right?
- [49:48]
B
Like, it can't be exactly like, I'm gonna knock you in the face with this one.
- [49:53]
A
So if people are interested in these grief retreats, like, how often do you do them? Like, where can people find out about them? Yeah.
- [50:00]
B
So we're offer them twice a year in March and October. We are already sold out for March.
- [50:05]
A
Wow.
- [50:06]
B
And we already have two people for next October. Yep. So there's a real.
- [50:12]
A
Like, you are filling, like, a. A need and a void for sure.
- [50:16]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean it's, it's magic. It's truly magic what happens at these retreats, the community and that we don't grieve together as a community anymore. And we so need that. We need to be able to come together and talk about our loved ones and say their names and be supported in that and with other people who get it. Um, and it's why I love my grief groups. I think they're just magical. But so if you go to my website, GL grief.com that's where you can find out some information about IEDC and the retreats. And like I said, we're already booking out till next October's retreats. And what a testament to the importance.
- [50:53]
A
Of your work though, right? Like what? Yeah, that's amazing. I love, I mean, I love to hear that. I love that for you, I love that for community, right? Like, because you're right, people are alone or they're not alone, but they feel alone in our. That's why I have these conversations. It's why I write about grief. It's why, you know, we, we do this so that people can feel connected and not alone. So kind of as a, as a wrap up, because I can't believe an hour has almost flown by already. I feel like I have a million things I could keep saying, but to anybody that's listening, no matter where they are in their grief and you know, there's, there's, it's not even the time, right? But just like where you are today or when you're listening, what is something you could, you want people to carry away from this or to think about.
- [51:42]
B
I think, you know, knowing that there's things out there that can help. You know, knowing that there are these tools like IEDC or grief groups or whatever it, or brain spotting, whatever it is, if you are really stuck on that death scene, if you're really struggling with that, seek out help. You know, find a good grief informed therapist. I will say that not all therapists are Grief informed. About 60% of therapists did not have education, undergraduate or graduate, in grief and loss. So I always say finding a therapist is like finding a bathing suit for a woman. Sometimes the first one you try on fits perfectly and sometimes you have to keep trying them on till you find the right fit. And as one of my friends said, add it and you wouldn't wear an old, worn out bathing suit either. So sometimes even if you've been with somebody for a while, it might need a new therapist, a new perspective. So there is some resources out there. But I also think it's knowing that your grief is valid, it's real. There is support out there. You are not alone on this grief journey. And to be kind to yourself, to practice some self compassion, to challenge those coulda, woulda, shoulda's and just know that sometimes there's gonna be moments of suffering and you're doing the best you can.
- [52:55]
A
Kelly, that's perfect. I'm gonna like listen to that on repeat myself. No, I so appreciate, you know, you being on the show and talking to us. I appreciate the work that you're doing. I think it's important, I think it's valuable. And I want to say, you know, people can find more information. You are the founder of the center of Informed Grief. Do I have that right?
- [53:18]
B
Correct. Yep.
- [53:18]
A
Yep. And also can listen to you on the Grief Ladies podcast. I think it's great what you're putting out there and I appreciate you and I appreciate you being on the show. Thank you for being on A Place of Yes. Thank you for listening to A Place Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it too. See you next time on A Place of Yes.