← A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast 
A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast
A Veterinarian’s Perspective on Grief, Pets, and Peaceful Endings
00:51:03
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Heather Straughter, and this is a place of yes. In each episode, we have honest conversations about grief. The messy parts, the unexpected moments, and the ways we begin to heal through heartfelt stories and expert advice. My hope is to offer you comfort, connection, and a reminder that you don't have to navigate this alone. I'm joined today by Dr. Anya Worm, a veterinarian whose work centers on one of the most tender and emotional moments many of us will face. Saying goodbye to a pet. Anya shares what drew her to in home euthanasia and how it's become the most meaningful part of her practice. We talk about what it means to listen to our pets when they can no longer tell us they're in pain, how to prepare kids for loss without shielding them from it, and why saying goodbye at home can be both heartbreaking and beautiful. It's thoughtful and deeply compassionate, and I'm grateful to share it with you. Joining me today is Dr. Anya Worm. She is a compassionate, enduring, deeply experienced veterinarian who focuses on euthanasia. And I'm excited to talk about something that so many of us are going to face right. Saying goodbye to our pets and how to do it in a really kind of compassionate, thoughtful, meaningful way for everybody. I'm really grateful for you to be here, and I'm excited to have this conversation. Welcome to the show, Anya.
- [01:21]
B
Thank you very much for having me.
- [01:22]
A
So we've been starting this season where we ask a question. You know, the show is called the Place of Yes, and we kind of wanted to start a little bit lighter before we got too, too into things. And so our opening question has been, what is something you have said yes to lately? And then I have started giving an example because, you know, it's kind of on the spot. But I thought a perfect example for me to share in, in lieu of this conversation is that I. I said my family said yes to fostering a new kitten and eventually adopting the kitten. And there were moments along that journey where I was like, what are we doing? We have a resident cat who is so happy and knows our ways, and we, you know, just is so easy. But I have to say, in the last month or so, since we have welcomed Shaq to our house, we have belly laughed and had so much fun, and she's just. She is the opposite kitten that Kobe ever was, and it's just been really cool. So I'm glad we did say yes.
- [02:25]
B
Yeah, it's so fun to see the different personalities that come out from the different animals and how you think, oh, I know cats. And then you have a new one come in and they're like, wait a minute. I've never had one do that before. It's fun.
- [02:35]
A
Totally different. It's hilarious. Yeah.
- [02:37]
B
Yeah. So my thing that I said yes to was totally not animal related. And I went back and forth whether to do that or not. But I do think balance in a veterinarian's life is really important. So saying yes to dancing. I was on vacation in Greece last week and learned how to do some Greek dances. So that's totally out of my comfort zone. And I did it, and it was super fun. That's amazing.
- [03:05]
A
Where were you in Greece?
- [03:06]
B
We were in the Peloponnesian peninsula, so it was a bike tour, so we were biking sort of all over the place, and it was totally amazing.
- [03:16]
A
That's awesome. I love that too. I love, like, when you're somewhere and you just, like, lean into whatever it is they're doing and, like, things you would never think about doing at home, but you're like, let's do it.
- [03:25]
B
Oh. And I said no the first couple times that I was encouraged to get up. So that was very much my normal answer because I was like, I'm not gonna do this in front of people, and that's crazy. But then I did, and then others joined me, and it was. It was awesome.
- [03:40]
A
That's so great. I love that. So we are going to talk today just about your. About you as a veterinarian and the work you do. And I was wondering if we could just kind of kick off with, like, your journey to becoming a veterinarian. Is it something you always wanted to do? Like, what drew you to this work?
- [03:58]
B
So I had always grown up with pets and loved them and. But never, actually never even went to the veterinarian with my mom, like, when she would take the pet. So I feel like my journey was a little different. A lot of people have wanted to be veterinarians since they were little kids, and that was not my journey. I'd always loved animals, but really never had exposure to veterinarians and other than James Harriot and reading about them. So I was a big reader, and James Harriot was definitely a big part of what I love to read, but it was. I actually went to college to get. I thought I wanted to be a psychologist. Always loved talking to my friends and talking through their problems and all this stuff. So went to school as a psychology major, and I just remember my freshman year, and I don't know where this came from. But I remember thinking I should try to become a veterinarian because as difficult as it was going to be because I wasn't great at the hard sciences, I remember saying to myself, God forbid I'm 35, because that seemed really old at the time and then regret that I didn't try it. So that was 18 year old me being like, you should at least try this. And it was a struggle. I kept my psych degree because I wasn't sure I would actually be able to get into veterinary school. So I kept my degree in psychology, which proved to be pretty helpful actually, and then just did all my prerequisites during the summer months and then did a little extra and so then applied and shocked myself by getting in, went to tufts and struggled again through the hard sciences. That first year and a half was really, really difficult. But then once we got to clinicals, that's where I, I did well and I connect well with people and that's something that has helped me a lot, especially where my career has taken me Now. I like people, I like animals as well, but I also really like people. And there are some people who go into veterinary medicine I think that really like animals more than people. And I think that can be hard since all of these animals come in with a human. And so knowing how to communicate and have empathy for the humans is, is a big part of my job and one that I really love. So yeah, that's how I became a vet. I sort of, I thought I wanted to be a zoo animal veterinarian and so worked at a bunch of zoos throughout my vet school career and then started as a mixed animal practitioner here in Vergennes, Vermont. Did that for five years and then moved to just small animal. And then in 2012 we moved the family moved to the Netherlands and that was where I got to work with a house call veterinarian and fell in love with that type of practice. So when we moved back to the States, that's what I started doing here again in Virgin. So I was, this is. We came back home and I started the housecall practice in 2014.
- [07:07]
A
There's so much there, right there's so I love the part that you said, you know, 18 year old, you was like, oh, what if you're 35 and regretted? Cause I feel like I've had some of those things along the way. And when you're 18 and you think 35 old, you know, a thousand, like you might like, you can't even imagine it. And it's Just sort of funny along the way because I've had them at like 35 too, and being like, well, what a 50 year old. Heather regrets it.
- [07:31]
B
Right.
- [07:31]
A
And now that I'm on the other side of 50, you know, it is, It's. It's good to like push ourselves and sort of. I think those are just kind of great. I don't know. I love that kind of thinking. Right. Because it helps you get where you're supposed to be also.
- [07:44]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, taking risks, you know, it's. It's not comfortable, but. And I kept a safety. Right. I kept my psych degree just in case and that worked. And that's. So I do think it's an important lesson. Like you can stretch yourself, but you can also make sure it's not lead to complete disaster if things don't work out.
- [08:03]
A
I. And I can. So when you were in the Netherlands, is that where you as a house call is. Is. Is housecall primarily euthanasia or can house call just mean you just do house calls or is it a combo?
- [08:15]
B
My practice both in the Netherlands and here is a general practice. So it's not just euthanasia. There are housecall veterinarians who specialize in at home euthanasia only. And it is a big part of what I do on a weekly basis. But I also get to see healthy pets and sick pets and puppies and stuff. So again, balance, I think is really important for me.
- [08:41]
A
Absolutely. And it's one of the things I've been thinking about and I think what I think is so important about this conversation is there are so many people, right, who have pets, who grew up with pets, who have pets now, who get pets because of their kids, you know, for whatever reason. But there's in society, I kind of feel like there's more people who have pets than don't or who have had pets, you know, maybe not currently now. And I can't tell you how many of my friends along the way and we're sort of late to the pet game. Like our. I didn't grow up with pets. Neither did my husband. And then we honestly, we got a cat during COVID We were one of those people who were like, okay, we're home a lot. You know, we knew that we traveled too much kind of for a dog, but we were like, I think we can do a cat. And it was great. It just was such a. I finally understood when people were like, no, they're part of the family. Right.
- [09:36]
B
You kind of join team that like group of people who loves animals and has them as part of the family. Yeah, that's great.
- [09:42]
A
Yes. Cause at first I didn't, like, I heard it, I believed it, but I didn't know it myself. And now I'm like, of course. Like, these are, like the little characters in our family. They're awesome. I remember, you know, there was a person I interviewed in season two, and she's someone I knew locally but didn't know her well. And it was almost one of those things, you know, how, like, with social media nowadays, you can connect with people even though you don't really know them, and you feel like you know everything about their lives. This was this. You know, she had. She ran marathons with her dogs. Like, her dogs were like her best man in her wedding, you know, like just such parts of our family. And when one of her dogs got sick, like, she was very public about the whole journey. And I almost, like, I was in tears over this girl's dog that I barely knew, because it was one of those moments where I was like, these are. This is. It is part of the family, and the impact is real. And as I was having all these conversations about grief, I. I think that this grief is. Whether it's different or everyone sees it the same, it's huge. You know, loss of a pet is something huge. And I think, you know, when we had first talked, one of the things you said to me that has stood out with me was, was how this, the. In home, like the pet euthanasia that you do is your favorite part of your work. And that resonated really kind of deeply with me because I kind of understood that. But I could see some people being like, hey, what do you mean? So can you talk a little bit about that? Like, kind of about how your process is and what you do and why.
- [11:21]
B
It'S so important, you know, I think the thing that happens often in appointments is, especially euthanasia end of life appointments, is the client will say to me, wow, this is just has to be the worst part of your job. And I. I totally understand where that's coming from for them because they are feeling so terrible. And even if they have only just met me, I think they can feel that I have a lot of empathy to what they're going through. And even when I first started the practice, I was really sure to say to them, no, it's actually not. This is a gift that I'm giving to these animals and to the people, you know, because watching your pet suffer is so difficult and so emotionally Exhausting. And a lot of my clients have been going through a long term sort of decline with their pets. And so they don't even realize how draining it is on them. And I will say to them, it's okay if after this is finished, you feel a little bit of relief. I want to make sure they don't feel guilty about feeling better in one way. I mean, certainly along with the grief and the missing the pet so much. I just went through this with my own dog. There is this sense of relief, like, okay, I got them through to the other side. And so I really try to. And I don't try. It's, it's. I really truly feel it. What I'm doing, when I'm doing an at home euthanasia is a gift. I never euthanize an animal that isn't ready to be euthanized. That's. I have said no before, but usually it's not an argument with the client. Usually it's like, hey, you know, I think there's some other things that we can do here to improve your pet's quality of life. And therefore I'm not going to have to euthanize your pet today. So, you know, it's very different. There are some veterinarians who have to euthanize animals that are healthy, you know, in shelter situations. And that's a totally different experience than what I have at home. And I'm really super grateful for that. I don't know if I could do what the shelter veterinarians have to do at times. It's really a totally different situation. So, yeah, it wasn't until I started doing the euthanasias at home that it became the favorite part of my job because the space that I have in people's homes, it's so much less stressful for all of us. It's so much less stressful for the animal. They can be wherever they want to be, in the home or outside, if that's what they like. And for the humans involved, I always say, you know, you don't have to be here. You can leave if you want to. The beauty of being home is that you can be as close or as far as you want. And that's especially helpful with children. You know, some parents aren't sure whether they want to have their kids involved or if their kids want to be involved. And so I say to them, I welcome the kids to be there because I think that the process is so much less scary than they probably have it made out in their mind to be. And if they can be there and they can see how peaceful it is. I think they'll move forward in their. To their adult life or the rest of their pet owning life. Being like, okay, it was horrible, but it was harder for me than it was for the animal. And that's another thing I say all the time, is that this is really hard for you human, but you're doing what is absolutely the best thing for your pet. And they're so lucky that you have chosen, first of all to say that euthanasia is time when it's appropriate. And also to have it done at home, it's so much better. And also for the veterinarian, selfishly, I don't know if I'll ever be able to put an animal to sleep again in a clinic. We always did our very, very best.
- [15:19]
A
There's something, just as you were saying that, and I was kind of, I don't know, picturing what you're talking about. There's something really beautiful about that. Right? And I think that's such an interesting point, particularly with children. But, you know, you think. I think what people create in their head is probably so much worse, and what a worse, lasting memory. That's fiction, as opposed to what is actually happening. That is true. You know, I think that that is, you know, and I even love what you said. They can be outside, they can be in their favorite spot. And I imagine for the humans, for the people, like, you can be in the room, but if you need to take a breath, then you can step out and then you can come back in, as opposed to when you're in a room at the clinic or however.
- [16:04]
B
And the tears, you know, you have the space for the tears and the crying and the snot and all the stuff that happens is just so much easier to have happen at home. I can jump up and go get tissues or toilet paper or paper towels. It's just so much easier to grieve at home than it is in a foreign location.
- [16:23]
A
I think it's so. You know, I have a very good friend who has gone through this with three of her dogs since I've known her. And just in the last month with sort of her last dog. You know, I'm not convinced entirely it's her last dog, but.
- [16:43]
B
But she's dogless now, which is a big deal.
- [16:45]
A
She's dogless right now. And, you know, it's interesting because her and I walk most mornings, and one of the things that she kept bringing up, and you kind of alluded to this a little bit, is you didn't say guilt, but like that sort of, did I do the right thing? And she always, she knows deep down she did, but she, the ease of her life now is a little bit. She's like, it's just, I don't have to get up and we don't have to walk and we can, we haven't traveled, but we could travel more. Like it's not, you know. And I think there's a part of her that is struggling with that a little bit because she is in some ways looking forward to this, like, dogless life.
- [17:24]
B
Yeah.
- [17:24]
A
But also doesn't want that to have anybody think that it impacted her love for these pets at all. So I think that's a little bit of this, like, struggle.
- [17:34]
B
Yeah, yeah, I, I hear that for sure. And I hear it a lot. I felt it myself with my own dog that I just euthanized a couple weeks ago. And I see it all the time, you know, people worrying that they're doing it for convenience sake. And that's where I can come in and be like, well, look, let's, let's measure this quality of life. And I have quality of life scales that I go through with the clients that try to make it a little bit more objective. You know, you can assign a number to certain categories and then you can repeat those scores and check in with yourself to see are things changing. And it also is a really good conduit for conversation with other family members because sometimes you have family members who have really different standards of what a good quality of life is. And those are hard conversations. And I find that going through those quality of life scales and trying to make it a little bit objective does help that situation.
- [18:32]
A
I want to go back a little bit to when you were in the Netherlands and when you first started working at a, you know, at home practice. Is that where you first had your first experiences with at home euthanasia? Is that like.
- [18:43]
B
No, I had done them at times, actually, even when I was a veterinary technician before I went to vet school, I was worked as a vet tech and I went with my boss to help with an at home euthanasia. And I cried. And I remember thinking I was going to get in trouble for crying. And my boss was awesome. And she said, no, you would never get in trouble for having emotions and showing that. And she's like, I think the clients actually really appreciate that, that you're having that, those sad feelings as well. So that started, you know, when I was really young and then every so often working at the stationary Animal hospital. We would also be able to do at home euthanasias. You know, usually it was for an, either an elderly client who just couldn't manage to get the pet in or a really big dog, for instance, that couldn't get into the car anymore. So I didn't do them a lot because of the amount of time it would take away from the clinic. We just didn't schedule things that way. But it happened and I knew, I loved it. I knew it was the better way to do things. And there was a house call vet. There's been a house call vet in Addison County. Oh gosh, Randy ross started probably 35 years ago. So there's been a house call vet in Addison county for a really long time. And so we could also refer to him. So that was helpful. But I didn't know how much I really liked it until we were in the Netherlands. You know, that's when I was doing it really regularly. And you know, there's things that you learn to do differently when you're in homes. And I got better at it and better at the conversations and just knowing a little bit more what to expect and not being afraid of what people's emotions might be or how the euthanasia itself was going to go. So yeah, with practice it did get easier technically and also somewhat emotionally. I always say, like, I'll never get used to it. Like I'll never. If I all of a sudden doesn't bother me anymore and make me sad, I'll know it's time to retire. Right. I need to always have a little bit of heart hurt when it happens. And that's, I think when my clients say, wow, this must be so terrible. I think that's part of what they're worried about is that I'm going to be so sad because I do take, and I tell them this, I'll take a little bit of your grief with me when I leave because I've been where they are and I really know how they're feeling. But balance is again, by knowing I did what was best for the pet. And that's my job. My job is to take care of the animal. And when I do the at home euthanasias, it's the right time to do it.
- [21:29]
A
I love how you said you kind of like hold or take some of the grief that they're having because you have been through it firsthand and you know it. And a little this has inadvertently turned into a little bit of a theme of this season because I, I ask it sometimes Because I think it's really front of mind for me personally, but also with a lot of my guests, it's like, you know, when we're doing grief work, it is. It's. It's sometimes hard to. Or at least for me. But, like, so I. And I, you know, how do. How do we maintain that balance? Right? Like, how do we live in this grief space and help people through their grief and guide them and also have room for our own and not let it overwhelm us, you know? And I think that sometimes I do it really well, and sometimes I just let. I feel like I'm, like, drowning under the pressure of it.
- [22:15]
B
Yeah.
- [22:16]
A
Which I think is just sort of, you know, the way life is. I agree, but how do you, like, you know, you referenced balance a couple times, and what does balance really look like for you? Like, how do you find that balance?
- [22:26]
B
Well, part of it is, like, what I do with my physical body to manage stress, and that's going outside, hiking with my dog will. I'll always feel better after I'm outside with my dog and my friends. And so that's how I take care of myself physically, which is a big part. And then emotionally, I sometimes just let myself smooch on the couch. Like, sometimes that's just what I have to do and be sad. And I talk to myself about it and I say, man, if you didn't feel this, you know, especially if I. If I have several euthanasias in a day, it's emotionally draining to take care of the people again. I know I'm doing the right thing by the animal, and I know I'm taking away pain and enduring suffering. So for the animal, I'll miss them, especially the ones that I've known for a really, really long time. But I know I'm. That I can balance pretty easily because I know I'm doing the right thing for them. The people part. Caring for the people part can be a little bit more draining for me, especially if I know the people very well. A lot of my euthanasias are clients I'm just meeting for the first time. And so I don't have that personal attachment that I do. But as the practice gets older, there's more and more people whose pets I've been taking care of for 10 years who I've known their whole lives. And those are harder for me. Those are going to take more time to recover from because it's both the animal and the person that I'm invested in and sad for. But I also can really easily remind myself that you can't have the good part of having the animal without having this part. And even if it doesn't feel like it on the day or even the week after euthanasia, oddly enough, it's worth it. It's worth it to have the joy that they bring and the connection that you have with your pets to then ultimately have to lose them afterwards, because we are almost always going to outlive them. So it's an interesting thing that we keep going back for it more and over and over and over again. And I have clients who say, this is it, this is the last time. And like you said about your friend, I never argue with them, right. I'm like, I know. I believe they feel that way right then at that time, but it doesn't always last that way.
- [24:57]
A
So you had referenced, you know, sometimes having days where you have several. Like, what is. And maybe there is no typical week, but what is a typical week? If there is such a thing of, you know, is there a place where you would say, I can't do more than this in a day or more in a week?
- [25:10]
B
Or I would never say I can't do more because the timing is such that you can't put it off right? It has to happen that way. And my clients are so house call clients are really a special, special breed. And I didn't know this going into it. And it's not about a financial advantage necessarily. It's really just the prioritizing of their pet stress level that they want to be at home for their animals, so they're really amazing owners. And so, for instance, if I have, you know, I have my day scheduled today, for instance, and it's pretty set. But if I have somebody who needs a euthanasia, I always prioritize that and will move my clients around. And my clients are great and they understand that perfectly well. And so I can change my schedule so that I can handle it all, which helps alleviate the stress of not being able to get there when the time is right. So it helps that my clients are really understanding and they want to be prioritized like that when it's their turn. So I'm able to fit in what I need to fit in. I don't work weekends. I will say, like, that's. And that has been hard for me. But to preserve myself, I do refer to emergency clinics over the weekends. And that was a hard thing to do. I didn't do it the first two years and I sort of took every phone call and everything Because I was like, well, I'm. He might as well. But again, the balance, I was feeling myself getting angry if the phone rang. And so I knew I had to change things. And my family also deserves to have me present 100% of the time. And so I'm good with that now. But that's because I'm 53. When I was 35, I wouldn't have been able to do that. So I think this practice came at the right time of my life for me to be able to hold balance. Because, you know, you get to know people so well when you're in their homes. It's a very different relationship. It doesn't feel purely professional anymore. And I love that. But it can also lead to some blurry boundaries sometimes.
- [27:19]
A
Boundaries I am. It's funny, when I had initially asked that question, as soon as it was coming out, I was like, I kind of knew what you were going to say because I was like, oh, you know, a. The balance as you find it. But also this is not something you can schedule. Right. Like, when it's needed, it's needed. And that's part of, it's part of the beauty of the work is that you're there for the time that it needs to be.
- [27:43]
B
Yeah. And that's, that's the hardest thing is scheduling it appropriately.
- [27:46]
A
Right.
- [27:47]
B
And I have a lot of phone calls, sometimes ahead I do some telehealth stuff if people don't want or don't have the time for me to come. So I've figured out ways to help people. And sometimes I make the appointment is made for euthanasia and I go and it's thought time. And I will say to people, just because I'm scheduled doesn't mean we have to do this today. And they appreciate that flexibility.
- [28:14]
A
And I also love the, you know, you kind of reference your age and we're basically the same age. And I do feel like a little bit in this chapter of our lives, a little bit. I find balance easier to uphold to, you know, like, I used to always kind of almost put yourself last. And it's just, it's better for everybody when we have that balance too. Like for our family. And recognizing that when we're doing work that takes a lot out of us, it's important that those we love most too get the. Don't just get the like tired out version of us or the stressed out or the sad or whatever that is that they get all versions of us. You know, it is one. It's one of the perks. I Think of getting older, at least I think 100%. You know, you kind of have referenced this part being, you know, since you were of. At tech and kind of being a part of your career all along. Is there, was there a particular, like at home or in home euthanasia that sort of, that resonated for you, that kind of stands out all these years where you're like, this is it. Or was it just the experience of, of all the different types of, of doing it over time and seeing it, like, was there one that stood out?
- [29:21]
B
Well, I, I think that that one when I was about tech is, I mean, the fact that I can remember that because so long ago tells me that that's. I learned so much just from that visit, you know, having a, a veterinarian that I was working with who, I mean, she was real a mentor for me. And at the time, I think I knew I was going to vet school, I'd gotten into vet school and so I knew I was going and so I. She really helped. She took me under her wing and really I wanted to be like her. You know, she was super smart and worked hard, but had hobbies. She biked a lot and hiked a lot. And so that euthanasia with her, I think is the one that sort of set the tone for me that it was okay to cry and going to people's homes. You were going to be very much appreciated, which, I mean, I guess that's my ego talking, but like, being appreciated by people is nice, right? They really, of course, of course, very much appreciate what I do and what I can give for their pet and for them. And that never gets old, you know, that people, that I'm making people's lives easier as well as the animals lives easier and my life easier because I'm in people's homes. It's just such a, it's such a win. And again, it sounds so weird to say that I love at home euthanasias. And I remember I wouldn't say it out loud to anybody until I joined.
- [30:47]
A
A.
- [30:49]
B
House call vet, you know, social media group. And we all were saying this and I was like, oh, thank God I'm not the only one who thinks this is a great job, because it does. It sounds so morbid, but I'm not the only one. So there's a whole group of us that do these at home euthanasias and really love them. I mean, do I wish that animals, you know, could live longer? Yes. But we're really doing the best we can to limit Their suffering and make their death really good. And I think a good death is just really important.
- [31:27]
A
You know, as we're having this conversation, there's so much in my head that is like so much of this is. It's life, right? Like it is knowing like a good death in human life is important too, you know, and maybe we can't always control it right in the same way. And there's different, different thoughts and everything about that, but. But it's sort of death is part of life, right? Like we are. You know, you talked about the, you know, pets and you're almost always going to outlive your pet. But like that's also, you know, you're most likely going to lose your parents. Like you. There's certain things and you know, certain deaths, like the death of my son comes out of order, like, you know, or whatever. We kind of think about grief and death, but facing it is. You can't escape it. Like, you know, some people haven't had that experience yet, but eventually you likely will. Like, this is just something. So I think when we have these opportunities to make it something beautiful, like, you know, when it's passing out. And I've shared this on the show before and something you said kind of made me think of it and you know, it's. My father in law passed away in December and my husband and I were in the room like he was sick. We kind of knew it was coming, but we were in the room. He hadn't been doing well. I don't even remember why everyone else had sort of left the room, but we decided just to sit with him. And we honestly, we both had our laptops and were doing work kind of at the foot of his bed and he was resting peacefully. Then all of a sudden we realized he had been resting peacefully. And you know, all of a sudden my husband's like, oh my God, you know, go look. And he had passed. And there was something about that moment that was so beautiful because it's almost like he had just relaxed and it was time. And you know, he was 87 and he had been sick and all of the things. But I always felt such an honor that he was comfortable enough to do that with Brian and I there. And I feel like it's different. But there's something that is just so beautiful about that moment when it's time and done peacefully, right?
- [33:33]
B
And the fact went, peacefully helps so much, right? That there was no.
- [33:38]
A
It helps so much. And I just think as you were talking about the conversations and the relationships and Being there for the families and the kids, if they're there, it's gotta feel validating or, like, because what you're doing on a daily basis, on an ongoing basis, it is such a gift for the humans as much as the pets.
- [34:03]
B
Well. And I think our culture really fears death so much, and so I do feel like I'm helping a little bit, like, making it less scary. And I. I am curious how my parents are still alive. I'm curious how, like, I. I feel right now that I don't fear death like a lot of other people do, but I'm wondering what it will actually be like when I'm actually faced with it, either my own or with my, you know, family members. What. How that will translate my experience with the animals. And I. I do hope. I mean, I. People will say. My clients will say this was so much more peaceful than somebody in their family's passing, and how they wish that we could do what we do with pets, with humans more. More easily. I mean, there's more of that coming, but it's still very challenging to arrange. And I hope that that's. I hope we're headed in that direction. And that's probably a whole different conversation.
- [35:01]
A
But, no, but I kind of opened the door a little. But, yeah, no, I am. It's. There just is something so beautiful, because it is. It's hap. It's going to happen to all of us. Right? Like, and it's like. And if you can just have it be something that is peaceful and not right.
- [35:19]
B
And the reason it is, is because it's controlled.
- [35:21]
A
Right.
- [35:22]
B
I encourage people to not wait until there's nothing good left. You know? Know, something I say all the time is, like, just because they're still eating doesn't mean that they're happy. And no, for sure, that is something I hear a lot. Well, but he's still eating. I was like, but okay, has he gone for a walk? Is he still sitting with you on the couch? You know, we go so quickly. When I go into somebody's house, they'll tell me all the things their pets do that make them know that they're happy. Like, I hear the patterns, and I'm like, okay, well, these are the things we're gonna watch for. And when two of those three things aren't happening anymore, please think about calling me. You know, I kind of tell them, like, make this invisible line in the sand for yourself. Like, when she's not doing this anymore, I should call Anya so we're not in an emergency situation. And you wish you'd done it the day before. And I, I have. We had a dog, Sophie, who, my last year in veterinary school had a really terrible disease and we thought it was treatable and she ended up dying at home with my sister and not euthanized. She died on her own. And it was terrible. And that might be part of why I do what I do. And you know, I think all of my patients, whether they're my own or my clients patients, they teach things to me and I take that forward and try to help based on those things. And so it can be really rough death like that. And I have the tools to avoid that, you know, and I'd like to use that.
- [36:54]
A
I love that tangible thing though. Right. Like, you know, as you get to know the pet or you're talking about them and saying, you know, what are the top three things they do when they're happy? Right. Because I, when you said that, I can tell you what three crazy cats or the two crazy cats downstairs do and they're each different. But like, yeah, you know, there's a real, you say that and a pet owner has a real concrete answer.
- [37:16]
B
They do, they really know.
- [37:17]
A
So it's, it's, you know, it, it really is kind of a, you know, I would imagine that that helps alleviate some of the like anxiety over whether it's time or not. Because you almost have this, like here, here are three things that I know bring great joy to my pet.
- [37:35]
B
Yeah.
- [37:35]
A
But all of a sudden they're not doing those things anymore.
- [37:37]
B
Yeah.
- [37:38]
A
You know what I mean? Like, I think that's a really, that has to be really helpful for families.
- [37:42]
B
It is, it's harder when you have a real chronic illness that's going really slowly. So like my 15 year old dog, what she, what made her happy at 15 versus what made her happy at 5. Those are very different things. And you know, as we're aging, like I, I've pain in my knees on the regular. That doesn't mean I'm ready to go. But you know, it's, it's so, it's all relative and finding like what's okay for a 15 year old. And so for my own dog, I, you know, every time I'm, I'm always so stressed out and I know my clients are the same where they don't think they're gonna know and I tell them, you're gonna know and I tell myself that. And I still don't believe it. But Clementine, she, you know, she got older, she didn't love to ride in the car very much anymore. But she still would get in. And then I'd take her up to the top of the hill and hike up there. Cause she couldn't make it up the hill. So we had, you know, I had changed everything, but she could still walk and still love to go and sniff. And she jumped into the van finally. And then she jumped out the other side. And I was like, okay. And that was. That was. It changed for me. It was just like, okay, I hear you. You're ready. And called my sister, and she came the next day. And so I think if you're open to seeing the messages and hearing the messages, you're gonna. It's gonna come. And you have no idea what form it's gonna come in. But that was what it was for me with Clementine. And I was like, okay, I got you, sister.
- [39:09]
A
You're like, I got you.
- [39:10]
B
Oh. It was devastating. But at least I knew she was ready. And I really appreciated that gift of, like, her telling me that and that I was ready to listen.
- [39:21]
A
So I talk so often with guests when we talk about human loss. And I always talk about, like, signs, you know, like, after you've lost someone and do you connect with them afterwards? And I've never thought about it in terms of a pet, but, I mean, do you still get signs from Clementine now? Like, does that still?
- [39:40]
B
Or is that a no? Absolutely. I mean, you know, some of them are like, whew. Like, she was always panting so loud. And so now it's like, quiet downstairs. And again, that's a little bit of that guilt. Like, oh, I'm kind of happy I'm.
- [39:52]
A
Not hearing that anymore.
- [39:54]
B
But I also take it as a time to, like, talk to her. And, like, I'm like, tiny. I miss you. Like, I'm. And so, yes, I hear things all the time. Or I'll come around the corner where she would always be laying. And, you know, in the morning, I'd come down the stairs and rub her belly. And so I come down the stairs, and she's not there anymore. So you. I tell people this as well. It's like this part, the pre euthanasia part, is difficult. Making the decision, going through the process. But the next couple days to weeks are also like, you think you hear them, you think you see them, and you don't even realize how much part of your subconscious they are. And I take that and I try to make it a good thing where, like, wow, I loved her even more than I knew I did. And I really Believe that. And so I tell people that like be ready and cry. Definitely don't try not to cry because otherwise you're going to cry at shahs. So just, you know, cry when you.
- [40:50]
A
Might cry shahs anyways.
- [40:51]
B
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But it, I take it as a way to honor them and just be like, wow, I really loved her well and she loved me well, and move with that.
- [41:03]
A
Have you witnessed or been a part of like anything that's really special from like have you gone into someone's house and they have just done something that like blew you away as part of like, you know, and like, I was going to say ritual, but I don't know if that's like a weird word, but has anybody have like a.
- [41:18]
B
Yes. And often for me it's when the little kids are involved and they've drawn pictures and they, you know, all the pictures of all the, all the things these little kids have drawn sort of surrounding the pet and they have the toys there with the dog or the cat or they. I had. This may sound crazy, but a woman whose chicken I had to euthanize and she read a prayer for the chicken. I mean, a chicken. I had them as well. They, they have personalities. Like they, you don't you think you're getting them just to lay eggs and before you know it you're like, oh shit, I love this chicken. And I'm going to pay this woman to come and put her to sleep when she's sick. People don't believe they're going to do that. And they do. And she read a prayer and she's like, please don't. Is this okay? Oh my gosh. Of course. This is a, this is a lived creature. A living creature. Of course it doesn't matter whether it's a chicken or a cat or a dog, but for me it, it tends to be the little kids or the ones that really hit me the hardest and I think is the first dog when someone's had their first dog and they're euthanizing their first dog, the one they had before kids, because you're a very different pet owner before you have kids and after you have kids. And I very much relate to that. And I think I see the people sort of processing all the things that animal has gotten them through to this stage, you know, all those different stages of life. But yeah, it's oftentimes the kids drawings and the moms and the dads just remembering what life was like before, during, and now with the kids there.
- [43:07]
A
It's so interesting because when you were saying that it was reminding me of the. The girl that I had talked about initially, you know, who kind of like the. The dog was the best man at the wedding, you know, like, kind of like just like such an integral part of who she was and who she became. And like through all the stages, like when it was just them and then it was, you know, a boyfriend, then the husband, then kids, you know, like, it's just. It's like a best friend through it all. I can imagine that I hadn't thought of that, but that's gotta be so emotional for everybody.
- [43:43]
B
Yeah.
- [43:44]
A
And I'm sure the kids. Would you say that most of your clients. You know, I think the kid piece is so interesting. Right. Because I love the way you said it earlier that oftentimes what the kids are seeing when you do this is such a. I don't know, better picture in their mind than what, left to your own devices, you could envision. Right.
- [44:05]
B
Um.
- [44:05]
A
Would you say that most people allow their kids to be part of it or allow the kids to make a choice? Or do you. Or do. Do you definitely have people who are.
- [44:12]
B
Like, no, I have all of those. Um, I. I encourage people, like, I say let your kids decide, because I think that's works the best. And I tell people, like, I'm going to use real words. Like, I'm going to explain what I'm doing, and I'm going to use real words and invite questions. One thing I have sort of adapted the past couple years is I encourage them to have a human there who can be with the kids so that they can be with their dog or cat so that they don't have to parent while they're putting their friend to sleep.
- [44:48]
A
Best friend or.
- [44:48]
B
Yeah, yeah. Because that. I've seen that happen before, where they just are focused so much on the kid, either that they're worried that the kid is misbehaving. Like, you know, the kid is like bouncing a ball against the wall over there while I'm doing it. That doesn't bother me. Like, that's the kid dealing with the way they want to, but it bothers the parents so much that then they can't be present. And that just adds so much stress. So I was like, you know, is there a friend or a grandparent or somebody who can come to take care of the kids? So you can be with your animal, but also have the kids there. So that's ideal. And that goes the best. When there's another adult to take care of the kids, that helps the most And I would say most people, I think most of my euthanasias with families, a lot of them, I'll do while the kids are at school. It's probably 50, 50 where the kids have either chosen. They don't want to be there, so they do it while the kids are at school, or that the parents just want to do it, want to be there by themselves. I don't think it's that they don't want the kids to see most of the time because they know they're going to have to have a conversation about it because the animal's no longer there when the kid gets home. But I would say 50, 50, probably with the kids actually being present.
- [46:06]
A
It's funny, as you said, that example of, like, the kid banging the, you know, ball against the wall or something, like, as a parent, right. That, like, resonates. Because there's not just in these moments, there's always those moments when you have a picture of how you want your kid to be behaving, and then they're doing whatever they want and they're acting crazy, and it doesn't really matter in the scheme of that moment. Like, like you said, you're like, it doesn't bother me. It's how the kid's dealing with it. But I've also been that mom at the moment that's like, no, this is not how you're supposed to be right now.
- [46:32]
B
100%. 100%.
- [46:34]
A
Yeah. You just stress out about something that is not about what you're actually stressed about. But it's like a.
- [46:40]
B
And I almost always have a nurse with me when I go. And my nurses are amazing at talking to the kids. So if there's not another adult there, Liz will go and be with a kid. And kids love Liz. And so it's really easy that way. And so we know we've been in so many different situations that I feel like we really know how to roll with whatever's sort of thrown at us.
- [47:04]
A
I've so enjoyed this conversation, which I feel like is kind of an odd thing to say, but as a pet owner now, you know, as someone with pets, I love this. I just love this. I love this conversation. Right. Because it's treating the pets who become part of our family with such a respect, and it's having such. I can't think of what the word is. It's not always respect, but it's just that having that relationship, valuing that relationship for it to be as important as it is, when they're running around part of your active family to when they're not. And I just. I love the work you do. I am grateful to have this conversation with you and to share it with, I think, the people who are listening. And if there was one more thing that you would want to share about, you know, in home euthanasia, the world of euthanasia that you think people get wrong, is there anything you would want to share? Like one last thing, like a takeaway?
- [48:04]
B
We've covered a lot, so, yeah. So there's one thing that is kind of a big thing, and it's. There's been something on social media that I see every so often where they paint the picture of a client bringing a pet in to a animal hospital and leaving it there for euthanasia because they can't be there with it. They can't. They can't. And the shaming that goes on in the comments about how horrible that person is, I have a real problem with that because I really think people are doing the best that they can. And if they can't be there, there's a reason. And everybody has their own story about death and grief. And so it makes me so upset when people are ashamed for the way they handle their pets. Euthanasia. And so I think I would ask for people to give people grace and really try to believe that people are doing the best that they can. I know that there are some people who are callous and mean and do that from that place, but most people are not. And I think it's. It's. I want to live in a place where people are doing the best that they can. And so if they're leaving an animal to be euthanized or in my situation, if they can't be in the room, I'm going to tell them that is 100% okay. Your animal knows that you love them, and I'm going to be here with them to make sure they're okay.
- [49:36]
A
I think that's so important in this particular setting. But also it's such a great way to sort of wrap this up because I think that it is a really universal thing right now. You know, like, I have to believe that the majority of people are doing the best that they can with what they've got and they are moving forward. And it's so easy to get stuck in this, like, negative thing. And I do. I think we have to give people grace around grief in general. I think we have to give people grace just sort of in general, you know. So I think it's a really beautiful way to end this. And I'm so grateful, Anya, for you sharing so much of your work with my audience and with me. And thank you for what you do. I know it's got a way on you, but I know that you also love it and know that you're adding that you're doing something really important. So thank you so much.
- [50:25]
B
Thank you so much for letting me talk about it. I really. It's something I'm so passionate about and I. I do love sharing and hope that people learn that at home euthanasia is a possibility. A lot of people still don't know that and so I'm I hope that some people have learned something new.
- [50:42]
A
I think they absolutely have. Thank you so much.
- [50:44]
B
Thanks, Heather.
- [50:45]
A
Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it to see you next time on A Place of Yes.