← A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast 
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Heather Straughter, and this is a place of yes. In each episode, we have honest conversations about grief. The messy parts, the unexpected moments, and the ways we begin to heal through heartfelt stories and expert advice. My hope is to offer you comfort, connection, and a reminder that you don't have to navigate this alone. Today I'm joined by Austin Wolfe, who shares the story of his brother Devin, and how that loss led him to say yes to helping other kids at Experience Camps. As a volunteer counselor, we talk about what it's like to hold your own grief while showing up for someone else's, and the moments at camp that reminded him joy and sorrow can live side by side. Austin also opens up about where this work is taking him next as he builds a future in the grief space. It's raw and hopeful, and I'm grateful to share it with you. You know, we go deep here in this conversation, so I always like to start really easy. So, as you know, the show is called the Place a. Yes. Is there something that you have said yes to recently that you are happy about, proud about anything?
- [01:00]
B
I guess saying yes to sort of like a new experience into volunteering and just like a different type of volunteering as far as surrounding kind of my grief. And it was something that I was a little hesitant on because I didn't know how I was going to feel and react to it. And so sort of saying yes to. To being involved in, you know, some volunteer work within grief was. Yeah, just something really amazing.
- [01:27]
A
That's awesome. That's a good one. It's funny. It's. It's such a, like, loaded question because some people are like, well, I said yes to meet my friend for coffee. And then other times, you know, like. So it just kind of leaves it to whatever. No, but I think that's awesome. And it is the one thing with grief I think, you know, always trying to sort of find the positive. Not that there is, but always trying to find the space where you can get something amazing out of it if you let yourself. So we are here to talk about your brother, and I would love if we could kick it off with you just sharing about him, like, who he was, your relationship, and just a little bit of his story.
- [02:05]
B
Yeah. Oh, man. So I was an only child for, like, the first seven years of my life. And then we had a. A little surprise named Devin came along. And, yeah, I remember, you know, when we first brought him home, I was again, seven years old, eight years old, and was set in my ways as A little only child and then having this new kid come along and sort of shake things up. And you know, I remember he asked my parents if I can send him back because he's crying too much. I don't want him, you know, so. But that like really quickly changed and like you, we became such best friends. He was really, really quick, really smart, really funny. Like just had the, just the driest sort of sense of humor and could just, just kind of like clap back quickly with like a quick joke and you know, just had like a, this presence about him that, you know, it wasn't like all eyes on him. It was. He made sure that like everybody else's eyes were on like, like the people that were important to him, not just sort of like him. And so yeah, he was just really, just really funny, really loving, really caring. You know, for a younger brother, he, he had it a little bit more together than me because I guess he got to sort of see all the trials and tribulations that I went through as, you know, as a, as a teenager and, you know, young adult and whatnot. So I think he picked up on a couple of my mistakes from over the years. But he was just somebody that like I truly looked up to. You know, there's always like, oh, we have the older brother that they look up to and like, I know he looked up to me, but like, I truly, I truly looked up to my brother. I looked up to the way that he handled certain situations, the way that he would handle himself in life and relationships and kind of everything. So it was just like really just like the funniest person ever. So kind, you know, the type of kid that would give you the shirt off of his back. He made sure that everybody was taken care of no matter what your situation was. And he didn't really care whether you made some bad decisions and you needed help. He was there to help you whether you, you know, made good decisions, helping you out there. So he was just, he was one of a kind, truly.
- [04:31]
A
He sounds great.
- [04:32]
B
So yeah, yeah, really funny. It's just, I just miss his quick witted humor kind of the most, you know, and his sort of just like funny mannerisms and little one liners and stuff like that.
- [04:44]
A
So it's always interesting with grief, right? Like the things that you miss. And if you, if you think like, I don't know, sometimes I think about like, oh, if I was to lose this person, then I would miss this. But it's never those things, or it is those things, but it's always those Little things, like you mentioned, it's like the.
- [04:59]
B
Yeah, you miss the big things, but like, it's really like those smaller little.
- [05:03]
A
Things that are so uniquely them, truly.
- [05:06]
B
And in like day to day life, you don't like really concentrate so much on those little things. And then when you lose that person, you're like, wow, I don't miss like the big, you know, get togethers. I miss like the random quick little phone call or like the quick little text message or, you know, him giving me a hard time sort of a situation.
- [05:28]
A
For sure.
- [05:29]
B
That's truly what I kind of miss the most is him sort of, you know, getting on me, giving me a hard time, sort of cracking jokes and stuff like that. So. But yeah, it's interesting.
- [05:40]
A
It's funny with Jake, with my son, you know, and he was sick and he was young and whatnot, but there's this expression he would make and it always. It's the thing that can like even right now, like choke me up. Right? Like, it's obviously the huge loss and all of these things. And he never, you know, went to high school, never graduated, like all of these things. But this expression he made, when I think about it, just, it was so uniquely him. And it was kind of like pissed off. He was kind of like, screw you, mom. Like, I don't want this food. Like, you know, like it wasn't like, oh, I love. It wasn't the look of love, but it was definitely. It's the thing, you know, it's like there's always those pieces when we lose someone. So if you don't mind, we'll go into sort of what happened. And your story has stood out with me so much because you were on the phone with him when this accident happened. And if you don't mind, like, it's such a huge moment. I hate saying unimaginable because it is imaginable. It's just everyone's fear, you know, and if you could share that with the audience, I would appreciate it.
- [06:43]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So my brother was. He was on his way or he had already stopped at his fiance's bridal shower. And earlier that day he had spent the day with his soon to be father in law and my dad at the house while all the girls were at the bridal shower. And so he got some like really good time hanging with them. And then, you know, he went to go kind of see all of our relatives and Lindsay's relatives and just hang out at the bridal shower for a little bit. And I knew that this was going on because I live out in Colorado, and so I'm not local to where he lived, which is out in Long Island. And so I just shot him a text message because I knew how sort of stressed he's been leading up to the wedding and all the planning and all the family politics, and that's a hard.
- [07:36]
A
It's a hard thing to manage of.
- [07:38]
B
All of that stuff. So, yeah, I just shot him a message, and I was just like, you know, hey, nerd, like, how's the bridal shower going? Like, you pulling your hair out and all that stuff? And he called me immediately, and he had just left the bridal shower, got to see everybody. And as we were talking, we were just, like, laughing, having, like, just a typical brotherly conversation, sort of, you know, breaking each other's balls a little bit and just cracking jokes and whatnot. And the next thing you know, I just sort of hurry and say, oh. And then that was it. You know, it sounded kind of like there was a crash. And I stayed on the phone for, like, a minute, thinking, like, he had just dropped his phone or, like, something happened, like. And I just sort of, like, remember staying on the phone for just about a minute, like, hey, are you there? What? You good? You good? You there? You there? Just, like, over and over and over again. And I just got that weird, weird, sick feeling in my stomach, like something truly terrible had happened. And so I remember finally hanging up, texting him a couple of times. His phone was going straight to voicemail, and I was like, that's really weird. Like, what? What's going on? And So I tried WhatsApp and, like, a couple of other Instagram to try and, like, call to see if it would go through. And nothing was going through. And so I, like, waited, you know, 15, 20 minutes, tried calling again. Nothing was going on. And then that's when I, you know, sort of, like, my Spidey senses kicked off. And I was like, all right, something terrible has happened. And so I had to call kind of my parents, and it was explained, hey, I was just on the phone with Devin. I think something bad has happened. I think he maybe had gotten in a car accident. Like, explained what I had heard and kind of tried to organize, you know, my relatives in Long island and the police, and calling everybody, being like, all right, he left this location, was on his way back this way, like, can we find you?
- [09:39]
A
Didn't even know exactly where he was.
- [09:41]
B
I had no idea. I didn't know if he was, like, headed home, if he was going to a Friend's house or anything like that. So it was. It was pretty intense trying to, like, figure this out while trying to stay calm. And. Yeah, finally, you know, on the phone with my mom, on the phone with my cousin. My cousin's driving around. We're calling, you know, the different police stations to see if there's been anything called in and whatnot. And, you know, my mom said that they got to a. A car accident, but they weren't sure if it was him or anything like that. And they were waiting for the police. And I don't know, maybe like an hour later, my mom called me or I called her because I was just sitting by myself at. At my apartment thinking, like, all right, freaking out. Like, where could he have gone? What could have happened? Did his phone die? Did his phone break? Like, like, what. Like, what happened? And then I was like, all right, maybe he, like, went down into, like, a little ditch or, like, a little ravine, because, again, I don't know where he was. I didn't know where, like, what road he was driving on and. And what happened and whatnot. And I went to call my mom, and I was like, hey, did you try looking, like, maybe here, here or here? And before I could, like, finish my sentence, my mom just was like, hey, you need to come home, Devin. Devin is dead. And just never forget, like, being in my apartment by myself and sort of falling to my knees and screaming and kind of crying and. Yeah, it was just, you know, my mom was very calm when she told me and sort of kept together. You know, I could kind of hear my aunt and my cousin, you know, kind of also screaming and crying in the background when they realized that it was Devin's car that they had found. And, yeah, that was sort of just the beginning of the. Of the nightmare, basically, right there.
- [11:42]
A
I mean, and truly a nightmare. I mean, I think that is, you know, I mean, to have that moment. Like, do you relive that moment? Like, do you relive that phone call? Or have you learned to, like, kind of compartmentalize it?
- [11:55]
B
It's a mix of both. I have, like, my moments. It was really at the beginning, obviously, like, so heavy at first, where you're just like, what happened? I was just on the phone with you. We were just laughing, like, what happened in the car? You know, like, what. What went wrong? How did this happen? Is. And, you know, you sort of. I even, like, blame myself. Like, should I have texted him? Should I have, you know, got him on the phone and maybe distracted him or something like that? And so, you know, there's the moments of. Where I try to, like, kind of put myself in his shoes. Like, the moments before he passed away and thinking, like, where. Like, what would have gone on in the car? You know, like. And I try to, like, almost, like, visualize it. And so it kind of like, comes and goes in waves of, like, trying to, like, re. Live that moment, you know, which is obviously very difficult to do to, like, put yourself back in, like, that.
- [12:55]
A
The worst moment of your life.
- [12:56]
B
Yeah, the worst moments of. The worst moment of my life, truly. But I think it, like, it just, like. I don't say it helps, but it just gives you, like, a sense of kind of not acceptance. I don't know what the word is really, or it's like a weird emotion almost of, like, rethinking it, kind of reliving it mentally. And, you know, it's just. It's a bummer because, like, there's no answers, you know, like, we'll never know what happened in the car. I'll never know what went wrong in the car and what caused him to. To crash. You know, whether that was, like, swerving out of the way of something. Was he fooling around in the car, not paying attention? Like, I. I have no idea.
- [13:39]
A
You know, it's hard that, you know, you made me think about two things. Like, one is, like, grief, right? Like, just the overall grief and how, like, as time passes and you just had two years. Is that true? Yep. So it's, you know, the anniversaries come and time passes, and it just. In some ways it softens it, but in some ways it. At least for me, it makes it almost harder. Cause it's like your life is continuing and you're on this trajectory and you're, you know, you're having new experiences, and it's hard to think about, you know, your brother's not. Your person is not. You know, and it's. So sometimes I do think going into that moment of your last connection, even though it's a horrible moment, is at least for me. So I don't mean to put this on you, but, like, when I do, like, Jake's last moments, when I was, like, feeding him and then he, you know, aspirated, like, it was horrible, horrible, horrible. But I put myself there sometimes. Cause it's like it was my life with him still. Like, right before it happened, it was like my last moment with. With my kid. And, you know, so I don't. I don't want to say it's healing, but you kind of referenced that sometimes it's almost like, I don't know, therapeutic or whatever word. But yeah, you can't spend time there, but you can dabble in and out.
- [14:53]
B
No, and it's like kind of like a nice reminder that like, granted he was physically alone, but like he wasn't alone. Like I was. He was on the phone with me. And I think that's, you know, weird.
- [15:03]
A
Way, kind of beautiful like it is.
- [15:05]
B
And the other thing is like, in a weird way, it's like he kind of had like a farewell tour that morning where he like got some really good quality time like with my dad and his, what would have been his father in law, you know, Joe. And then he got to go see, you know, all of like my aunts, my other cousins. He got to go see Lindsay one more time. And I think me texting him at that moment that I texted him like, allowed him to call me. And granted we didn't have like a, A goodbye. Sort of like, hey, I'll see you later, I'll talk to you later. Sort of a thing. Like the fact that he kind of like, I don't know, checked the boxes off of like all the important people in his life before he passed. Yeah, it's again, it's like a kind of like a cathartic, therapeutic sort of a feeling to think back that like he got to see kind of everybody before he went. You know, I think it's one of.
- [16:01]
A
The ways we try to make sense of it. Right. Because, you know, like, you can dabble back and forth with whether, like, is everything predetermined? Like, are we just like pawns in a life that is already, you know, destined for us, or is it not? You know, and I can sort of be convinced of anything at any point based on those things, but I, I do think we, you know, I don't think that's a bad way at all to look at it. Like, he did have, like he, he was surrounded and at the time and leading into it with the people who mattered most and.
- [16:35]
B
Yeah, yeah, no, it's like a nice way to look back at, at the whole sort of situation and kind of make like a, A positive view about it, you know, that he got to see his people and say goodbye.
- [16:48]
A
You, you had mentioned, you know, when your mom called you and you were alone in your apartment and the way you described that, right. Like you dropped to your knees and you like screamed and, and I always, when I talk with people about their loss, like I. And. And some people have those exact moments that you just described, including myself. And some people don't, but. But it is. It's another thing kind of like we were just talking about that. I go back and forth to where, like, I can picture myself. Like, I remember when I came home from the hospital and, you know, I couldn't bring Jake back. Like, it was like, wait, my family just lost 25% of it. Like, I was so wrapped up in this. Like, we went from four to three, like, on a random Wednesday. Like, how the hell did this happen? But then I can picture, like, where I was, and I could picture screaming. And I pictured, like, my parents were like, okay, we're gonna leave now. Cause I don't know, like. Like the whole thing was a mess. But I go back there some sometimes, too, like, because I do think. I don't know. At least for me. It helps me remember. It helps me, like, make sure I'm feeling like. Because I think that it can be really easy to compartmentalize so much that we don't feel it. And for me, it's important to always remember that feeling, even if it's horrid.
- [17:57]
B
Yeah. Yeah. No, I kind of. You know, again, I have my moments where I'll just kind of be lost in thought, and that'll just kind of, like, pop up and I'll think back to the moment of being on the phone with him or the moment that, you know, my mom said, you need to come home. Devin's. Devin's gone, and sort of hanging up with her. And then, like, the moments after that. And, you know, I had one of my good friends who lived kind of upstairs in the apartment building and called Robin because I needed somebody to come downstairs to be with me. And having him run down and just, like, grab me and hold me, you know, and both crying together and just the sort of, like, the shock that you're. That you're in is kind of, like, the biggest thing that usually stands out, because it's like, I was just talking to you. Like, how are you not here?
- [18:47]
A
So you can't. Your brain can't process?
- [18:49]
B
No, it's. It's impossible to sort of compute in that moment that, like, what just. What did my mom just tell me? She just told me my brother's dead. Like, this is. This is crazy. You know, this doesn't make. This doesn't. This can't be real. But I knew it was real because I, I, I. I just had that feeling, you know, being on the phone with him and hearing what I heard and how he, you know, expressed Himself, like the last moments, basically, like, I knew something really bad had happened, you know, and so, yeah, you know, you take yourself back to those moments. Decor. Sort of, again, it's just like a nice sort of reminder basically, of, of what you felt.
- [19:33]
A
Well, and it's also, it's a reminder that they were alive. Right. Like, there was that moment, but there's this whole life that you had, and it, it allows you to go back into it. What were those? And this is, I mean, without staying too, like, dark. But, like, no, it's fine after that. Like, you know, so after your mom calls, like, what did that look like afterwards? Like, so you had to.
- [19:54]
B
It was just, I, like, go home and have. Yeah, well, luckily, like, I had a village and within, within 30 minutes to an hour, I had, I don't know, 15, 20 people at my place sitting with me, consoling me, bringing me food and just sitting with me and just being present with me and allowing me to cry and allowing me to sort of yell and be angry and sort of, you know, just go through the gauntlet of all of the emotions that you sort of go through when you get a phone call like that, or you find out that a person that you love is gone. And so, you know, a lot of people showed up, which was, which is amazing. And I'm super thankful for, for that. But then it's like, all right, I have to figure out, like, getting a plane ticket home right now immediately, and packing bags. I don't know how long I'm gonna go home for. And I don't know what I, I, you just start to kind of spiral and rabbit hole into, like, what is my life gonna look like now? What is the next week gonna look like? I gotta, I gotta get home. I gotta be there for my parents. I gotta get my suit, you know, like, all these, like, little things that, you know, you get ready. I have to call all these people and, you know, calling all of Devin's friends, letting them know what happened, calling my own friends and letting them know what happened. And sort of, you know, it's. It's kind of so difficult when you're in that moment to have to have, like, the same conversation over and over again informing people of, like, what happened and what's going on. And that's kind of like your reality for, like, the immediate future is you're like, I know it's, it's fresh and raw, but you're reliving it constantly by having to inform everybody that your brother had passed away or your person had passed away.
- [21:53]
A
I think it's so important that you brought that up. And it's something I think about a lot, but I don't. We don't always talk about it on the show. Those days are. Are intense, right? Like, because of exactly what you just said. It's reliving it over and over and then oftentimes ending up being the consoler when you're the one who had this huge loss. Right. Cause you're telling everybody. And I remember. Oh, my God. I remember there was a friend of mine who was pregnant, and she had lost a couple kids. Like, there was this, like. And I just didn't want her to. I was afraid that her hearing about Jake would trigger another, like, pregnancy loss. Like, And Brian and I were like. I was like, so, you know, we had this whole long, elaborate thing, and I don't know if it was a distraction for us or if whatever, but I remember, like, forget. Almost forgetting that I was telling her my son died because I was so concerned about how she was gonna respond to the fact that my son died. You know, you. You get wrapped up in this thing. So I think it's so important what you raised. Cause it's like, those days are so surreal because you're still kind of in disbelief. But then you are the one were one of the few who are, like, sharing the word. And then you said the thing about, like, I have to find my suit. I have to pack. I remember, like, going down a rabbit hole of, like, I have nothing to wear. How do. What do I wear to bury my son? Like, just getting so fixated on. On that. Because I don't know, like, it just. It was. It. It's just weird. And you don't. You're not thinking straight, and you're almost. You're. You're in it, but then you're in avoidance. Those days are wild.
- [23:29]
B
Yeah. And, like, getting back home was, like, a huge pain. I had two of my flights canceled on me, you know, and so it's like you're sitting at the airport just waiting to get on a plane to get home to address the inevitable. And, like, you know, seeing your parents, you know, and getting ready to deal with that and your other relatives and everything like that. And so it was. It was really stressful, all trying to. Trying to get home. And then you get home and you are just in the middle of kind of chaos, you know, like, with everybody and everything, and trying to coordinate with the funeral home and friends and people, and you have relatives flying in and driving in from all over the country and stuff like that. And it's just, it's just truly such an exhausting kind of time that you're, that you're going through and you're so.
- [24:24]
A
Not prepared for it because there's no way to.
- [24:26]
B
No, there's no way to prepare for it. Absolutely not. You know.
- [24:33]
A
What was life like after that? Right? Like, I always, because I always think there's like the death and then there's like that chaos that you're talking about. But then there's almost like this weird period where everybody goes home. Like you probably went home, like when everybody's life goes on in that reality.
- [24:53]
B
No, for, for sure. Like that's the, that's like the worst part about all that stuff is the world does not stop. Life doesn't stop for, for us when we're like in the middle of that moment. Like, I so wish like I could have hit a pause button and just like sat with myself in some moments and, and things like that. But it doesn't stop. And like, that's the worst part is, you know, you have people that'll show up and they're doing everything and anything and that just slowly starts to dwindle away. And you know, your relatives go back to, you know, wherever they are living and back to their regular lives and whatnot. And you're sort of just stuck in this weird twilight zone sort of feeling of how is, how is this life? How is this, what am I supposed to do? And I stayed. I stayed at my parents house for I think like two or three weeks afterwards just because they just needed so much help at the house. They needed a lot of support. Specifically my dad. My dad really did not do really well in the very beginning at all with this whole situation. So, you know, sort of trying to be there to console him and you know, as is like last remaining son, like be there, be present with him, you know, try to sit with him. But it's just, you're just. All you're doing is just like sleeping and crying, eating a little bit maybe.
- [26:23]
A
If you remember or like someone makes you.
- [26:25]
B
Yeah, truly, you know, and like that was. That's kind of like the nice thing is, you know, like everybody would send food and stuff like that so you don't have to like think about like that's the other thing is like thinking of like, oh, what do you want to eat for eat for dinner tonight? You know, like having to like, think of like the small little things and not having to like really think about them because everybody like Sent stuff and did stuff, like, was really helpful because it just allowed us to, like, sit and.
- [26:52]
A
Yeah, you'd, like, open up whoever delivered that day and just be like, this is dinner. Yeah.
- [26:56]
B
Yeah. So I sat with them for a bit and, you know, eventually made my way back to Colorado, and my mom came out for a week and, you know, sat with me at the house for a little bit.
- [27:07]
A
Did she come right away or did she.
- [27:09]
B
I think it was like, two weeks after I had flown back to Colorado. I just wanted to make sure that the house and everything was okay for cleaned up. Appropriate, of course, appropriate for mom, so. But no, it was really nice, like, having her come out and, like, we just sat and, you know, cried and had our moments, and it was just really nice kind of having her there. And. Yeah, it was again, it was just so. Just so unfamiliar, like, as to, like, what life is going to be. You know, this isn't.
- [27:42]
A
It's just. Yeah, you can't.
- [27:44]
B
You know, I've lost friends in the past, and I've had, you know, I've had grief show its face to me and in other shapes and forms, you know, as far as losing grandparents who I was really close with and. And whatnot. But, you know, the way that we're sort of brought up in life is like, you know, we lose our grandparents first and then our parents, and then you and your siblings, you know, ride this out until one of them together and, you know, that having that not be the case now, it's just, you know, throws you. Throws you for a huge wrench, you know, just kind of sitting and stewing with your thoughts as to, like, what life's going to look like moving forward without that person you had.
- [28:24]
A
You know, when you talked about the days after, like, you stayed a couple weeks at home and then your mom came, it made me think of a couple things. One is the idea of sibling loss in general. And I can 100% say, until I started doing the show and having some conversations with people, I never really thought about it. And then I felt horrible about it because my other son is living with sibling loss. And I just was so consumed with child loss that it's made me see it and think about it so differently. And I think sibling loss is so often ignored, I guess, like, because it's about, like, the focus typically tends to be on your parents. Right. Like, they lost a kid that, you know, the loss that's never supposed to happen, the loss everybody's scared of. And, you know, and so I've interviewed a few Siblings. And they've talked about, like, yeah, no one asks how I'm doing. They ask how my parents are doing, or they ask about, you know, like. And I'm just so. I try to be so in tune to that now because, like I said, I never thought about it, even though I. I have a child that lost his brother. But does that resonate for you? Like, do you feel like your job was to take care of your parents, or do you feel like.
- [29:41]
B
Absolutely, it's like, a weight.
- [29:44]
A
And you even said it, like, you know, last remaining son. Like, there's a weight now to it. There's like, a heaviness. And I know my son, who's 20, lives with that, and I wish I could take it away from him, but I know that he feels that weight.
- [29:56]
B
Yeah, it's just. As the oldest son, like, it's like, all right, like, I need to step up. Like, I have to be there for my parents. And it was. It was more. It was more my dad that, like, really needed. Needed the help and needed, like, the love and the support. My mom has a interesting relationship with grief and death. Uh, she's been a hospice nurse and social worker for the last 46 years. Oh, wow. So she, you know, had her, you know, little moments, but she just felt at peace. You know, she knew my brother was safe. She believes that, you know, her parents, my grandparents, came and just swooped him up immediately and sort of was like, hey, you're not supposed to be here. But, you know, welcome. Yeah, welcome, welcome. You know, we'll show you around, get you acclimated up here, wherever that is. You know, and so it was definitely an interesting sort of dynamic of sort of sitting at home with both of them and sort of, like, mediating between both of them where I could have some, like, deep, you know, grief conversations with my mom, where my dad was just beside himself, truly beside himself. He couldn't think, speak, eat without being truly, like, hysterical. And it was. I feel like I had my moments of each of those where being strong and stepping up to the plate and being extremely present and sort of. I don't want to say, like, shoving those emotions down, but just sort of, like, accepting, like, that my brother is. He's not in pain. He's not suffering. He's not. You know, he's. He's okay. He's. He does. Is not. You know, he's not in pain anymore. And so sort of having those feelings of that and being supportive while also being on the other side with my dad and, like, having Some big sobbing, crying, hysterical moments of, I can't believe this is my reality. I can't. You know, and so, yeah, it was just really important for me to be home and to be there with my parents and support my parents as much as I possibly could. And it was, you know, it was definitely difficult at times where, you know, my mom.
- [32:12]
A
Because you're in it, too. Like, you've lost a huge person.
- [32:14]
B
Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, and then you have your friends and everybody kind of checking in on you, but then you have, like, certain relatives, like, oh, how's your mom and dad doing? Mostly? And it's sort of. I don't want to say, like, it was. I was glazed over. It was like, hey, you doing good? And then it was like, how's mom doing? How's dad doing? And, like, feel like the questions were maybe, like, a little bit more in depth for, like, about my parents than, say, b, you know, so. But it just. You don't even think about it. It's just. You just are just answering questions and.
- [32:49]
A
Yeah, in the moment. It's one of the things that I always say, like, with this show, I think that, you know, we try to have these conversations so people can relate and not feel alone in their grief.
- [32:58]
B
But.
- [32:58]
A
But I also sometimes like people that have, like, a takeaway, and I do think that that's kind of a takeaway. Right? Like, remember the. Remember the sibling. Remember the brother. Like, remember their loss, too, and don't glaze over it, you know, And. And like I said, I think I've been sort of guilty of it because having lost a child, you know, I. I mean, I used to very much think there was, like, a hierarchy of. Of loss, and I was at the top of it and didn't really, you know, like, I have since become a little bit kinder and softer and sensitive. But, like, for a long time, I was like, no loss compares to this. Like, doesn't matter. And I know now that's not true, but, like, I do think that people don't always realize, you know, like, you know, and I do think it's important to sort of share that.
- [33:47]
B
No, you're kind of right. It's tough. It's not tough, but, like, something that you, like, kind of brought up where, you know, my dad. Me and my dad talk, like, about grief a decent amount. And my dad's in a couple of bereavement groups now back in New Jersey and goes pretty regularly and, like, has built a support system for himself and whatnot. And it's Kind of interesting that, like, sometimes your own parents, like, maybe don't check in as often as you'd like them to. Anya. Where it's just like, hey, are you. You okay? You good? You know what I mean? Like, sort of a situation where it's sort of on them. Like, a parent should never have to bury a child. They should never have to bury one of their own kids. Like, that shouldn't be a thing. And so. But yeah, that's kind of where.
- [34:35]
A
But it's interesting, right?
- [34:36]
B
Like, I'm here, you know, as well. Like, maybe I could use a check in possible for.
- [34:42]
A
I think it's huge. And I, like, I said I interviewed someone last season and I read her book. It's called Always a Sibling. Great book. But I literally was like, oh, my God, I am the worst. Like, I have not checked in on ethan in like 10 years. Like, you know, like, I just. It's. I think it's a really good discussion and it's a really good thing to share because I think, you know, there's no right. There's no right or wrong. But. But there is a. Hey, guys, I'm here too. Like, I lost my brother. Check in. Like, I'm navigating life without him. It sucks.
- [35:17]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's like, sort of what I brought up to my parents at one point. I remember, you know, coming up on a year and I just had like a really sort of like, big moment talking to them just. And coming to the realization, like, after they go, it's just me. Like, that's it. Like, I'm by myself. You know, I might have, like, you know, my partner Grace is amazing, but, like, as far as, like, my immediate family goes, like, after my mom and dad pass, like, it's just me at that point. Like, I. There's no, there's nobody else really, you know, as far as, like, our bloodline goes. And so it's. That's like a real. That's like a real tough one to swallow. Thinking, like, I'm going to have my brother with me like, throughout the rest of life, you know, and he's going to, like, be there for me, support me. You know, we can lean with you, all those things. And so, you know, it's. It's real tough. And so I remember having that conversation with them and they've been much better about sort of like, you know, checking in here and there. We talk every single day. I speak to my parents. You know, we have a really good relationship with both of them. So I Speak to both of them. And now they're like, hey, you good? You know, or we'll just talk about Devin. That's the other thing I kind of like really like doing. Instead of them asking me like how I'm doing, it's, let's tell a funny story. Or like something will come up in one of our conversations and it's like, oh, remember when Devin did and go into, you know, a nice little story and like have some like good laughs about it. So that's kind of a nice way to sort of check in with your people is to, you know, not just ask how they're doing, but ask about their person. About the person. And like have like a story come up that you're. That this, that I'm sort of like that we're both proud to talk about and tell.
- [37:06]
A
You know, there's so many people that avoid raising the person right, like, or raising like the person's name or saying it or talking about it. Because, you know, I used to laugh because people would be like, oh, I didn't want to bring it up. And I'm like, did you think I forgot? Like, no, of course not. Like, you know, you're not going to all of a sudden make me remember that my child's dead. Like, I got it. Like, I know but like I love to talk about them and I think that, I think that's actually really beautiful like that you and your parents do that, that you take the time to remember and reflect and all of their.
- [37:36]
B
Really good, funny, funny conversations. And you know, some we're just like, some we'll have some other family stuff going on and we're just like, oh God, I wish Devin was here right now. He would like, so sort my aunt out or my uncle out for he'd like handle it. Eat a Ding Dong. Yeah, exactly. You can give them, you can give them the quick witted business, you know.
- [37:56]
A
So do you feel like, do you can. Do you feel like he's with you? Like, do you have any like signs or connections or any of those things?
- [38:04]
B
Absolutely. I feel his presence pretty regularly and sort of right after he passed about, I want to say six or seven of us got stung by bees. Oh wow. I got stung by a bee. My mom got stunned by a bee.
- [38:25]
A
Like you were in Colorado and she's in.
- [38:27]
B
No, no, this is all in New York.
- [38:30]
A
Okay, okay.
- [38:30]
B
We were back in New Jersey for his services. It was the weirdest thing cuz like a bunch of us got stung randomly and we're like, is this him? Like, you know, being, like, being a. You know, being a. Yeah. You know what I mean? You're just, like, checking in on us where it's like, oh, my God, he's really sad. Let me just, like, come over and sting him around sort of. So, you know, I try and, like, look for that, and I'll look for bees, you know, around and whatnot. And, like, they definitely have made their presence a lot more than normally in the past, you know, And I just, you know, feel his energy in certain moments and times, you know, when I'm thinking about him. And I travel a lot for work, so I have a lot of, like, quiet car time by myself, and so I can, you know, feel him with me and decisions that I'm making and stuff like that. You know, I'll just flat out ask him, like, what do you think? You know, and get an answer. Sometimes it's just like an immediate, clear, straight answer. I'm like, oh, all right. Thanks, dude. Like, I appreciate. I appreciate the support, you know, so, yeah, I know he's. I know he's with me. He's with my mom, with my dad. He's, you know, he's with us constantly. I constantly feel just his presence around. It's like a bummer that his physical presence can't be here, but knowing that I can, like, feel truly, like, feel his energy in moments that I kind of need it most, you know, he makes himself seen, which I love, that I. Which I truly love. You know, every once in a while, I'm like, dude, could you, like, do, like, the whole. I don't know, like, I want to wake up in the morning and have all the cabinets open or something like that.
- [40:10]
A
Like, something really, like, over.
- [40:12]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, mess with me, you know what I mean? Like, do some, like, really fun, funny stuff that you would normally do. So every once in a while, you.
- [40:21]
A
Put it out there now.
- [40:22]
B
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I'm waiting for the, like, the paranormal activity of, like, all the drawers opening or utensils being flown. Total poltergeist around, you know? But, no, I really. I truly do feel his presence when it just comes, you know, I expected. And when you really need it most, they. I truly believe that they make themselves present.
- [40:49]
A
And I agree. And I actually feel sad sometimes when people don't feel that way. Right. Like, or they haven't connected to that, because to me, that's such a. I think it's honestly, the way that I've made it 15 years without my son is that I like to. For, like, He's a cardinal or. You know what I mean? Like. Or I can feel him or, like, there's, like. There's just things that make me think that he is still with us. And, like, when we travel, I'm always like. I always find something that's like, hey, he's with us. You know, like, he couldn't do it when he was here, but now he's going on trips with us and doing our thing.
- [41:22]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have my brother's ashes with me all the time. And so, like, I got my little buddy in my backpack, and he comes everywhere with me. He's been all over the world. You know, he's been to places that I'm, like, that he didn't get to go to. When he was. You know, his physical presence was here. You know, like, I got to take him.
- [41:40]
A
That's so cool.
- [41:41]
B
And he's been to Europe a couple of times in Mexico, and, you know.
- [41:47]
A
Do you get nervous that you're gonna, like, lose them?
- [41:49]
B
No. I mean, I have them stashed away pretty good. No, for sure, though.
- [41:55]
A
I'd be like, oh, my God. I had a guest on here who had her. Her ex partner, like, has Ashes, and they. She'd go to a concert, and it was a. Like, a concert that they both liked. So she brought him, but he got confiscated. Cause it was a powder. And she's like, wait, it's Gray. What are you trying to do? And she finally got him back, but it was a funny, not funny story. But I'm always like. I was like, oh, we buried Jake. But I kind of wish that. I wish I could bring him around. I think it's cool that people do that now. And. I don't know. I was raised Catholic, so I got kind of weirded out about. I didn't know what I was supposed to do, and, you know, like, the whole religion thing got in my head, and now I'm like, screw it. I wish I did it, but I love that. I think that's great.
- [42:39]
B
Yeah. There was only, like, one issue once. I was on my way back from Mexico, and they were like, what is this? What is this little thing?
- [42:44]
A
Like, it's my brother.
- [42:45]
B
It's, like, a little metal. Yeah. And, like, I had explained, you know, using, you know, Google Translate, that, like, this is my brother. These are his ashes. These are his mains. And, you know, they, like, wanted to, like, open it and whatnot. And I was like, I'll leave the airport, and I'll drive home from Mexico City. Yeah.
- [42:59]
A
Yeah.
- [42:59]
B
You're like, I just, I'm not letting this happen.
- [43:04]
A
You're like, no. So I, I want to segue now into, you know, when we talked before we had, you had shared with me what you were doing currently. Like, you know, you had spent the summer or some part of the summer with an experience camp and kind of, it seems like some of your, like, career trajectory, your like, life trajectory is, has shifted because of the loss of your brother and you're looking at, at different things. Can you talk a little bit about those experience camps? Because I think they're. It sounded like such an amazing program you were involved with.
- [43:36]
B
Yeah. So a friend of a friend, I was talking with them and I was explaining how, you know, I got like a small group of people together out in Colorado that we would meet, you know, whenever we could meet. And I really found that community is such a big thing in grief. And it's a nice reminder knowing that, like, you're not on this journey alone. There are other people that are going through what you're going through. And so I was explaining how, like, I wanted to start a bereavement group out in Colorado and not have it sort of at a church or very religion based, which kind of most of, not most of them, but like, there's a handful of them when I got back out to Colorado that were like that. And so she was like, hey, I think you would be great at this. Have you heard of experience camps? And I was like, never. You know, I'm not sure what that is. So she was like, look into it. One of my girlfriends has been doing this for like the last like two or three years. It seems like it's like an amazing program to be a part of. And I looked into it and experience camps started, I think 2007, 2009. And it's for children who have lost a parent, caregiver or a sibling. And it's a summer camp that they get to go to and it's sort of all based around grief. And so, you know, I had to sit and go through an interview process and, you know, questions about, you know, camp stuff and like, how I would handle, you know, children in certain situations and stuff like that. And I finally got the call that I was going to be, you know, a bunk counselor in July for camp that was in August. And so I didn't know what to expect. You know, like, I get as much research as I could. I jumped on sort of like their pump up calls and everything. And I was still like, all right, like, I'M going to camp. But, like, I don't know what to expect and how grief is built into it. And so, yes, not until you get there, you see sort of like how absolutely amazing experience camps are for. For not just the adults and us, but, like, for the kids, too. And it's kind of, you know, it's like a. I'm helping children and the children are helping me at the same time. And it's really just such a. I understand why they call it experience camps because it's truly, like, the best experience ever. You know, it's the best week ever. It's. Everything's for the kids. You, you know, you're at summer camp, you're water skiing, you're jumping in the lake, you're on the Blob, you're having a lot of fun, but you're also sitting in clinicals and listening to stories, and you're listening to these kids tell their stories about their people that they have lost. And so it's just a really beautiful, beautiful program to be a part of. It's really amazing. And to see how much they have kind of grown and how much traction there's been behind experience camps over the last couple of years. It's. It's amazing to see. And I'm, like, so grateful and thankful to now be a part of this. Like, I'll never not volunteer with them ever.
- [46:52]
A
You know, it sounds so amazing. And you honestly, you kind of took some of the words right out of my mouth, like, when you said, because the name even is great, right? Like, it's great because so many things surrounding grief are like. They're either like doom and gloom names, right? Or they're corny. Like, they're just corny. Like, they're just, you know, it's like nothing you'd be proud of. You're, like, embarrassed to say, I'm going to. Like, I can't even think of a name of one. But, like, I don't know. I think we were involved with something with Ethan, and it was like the Wave Riders or something, because it was like the way Riding the waves of grief or something. And I'm like, okay, whatever. Like, experience camp, right? Like, it could be anything. It could be nothing to do with grief. It's just like, hey, I'm gonna go have a great experience. Boom. End. Like, I just love that.
- [47:38]
B
Yeah, it's. It's amazing. It's so well ran. It's so well thought out. They have camps in. The first one started in Maine, I believe, and then there's one in Pennsylvania, Connecticut as well. Down in Georgia there's a camp.
- [47:54]
A
Where did you do yours?
- [47:56]
B
I went to the one in Michigan.
- [47:57]
A
Okay.
- [47:58]
B
It's about, I don't know, 30, 40 minutes south of Kalamazoo, about two hour ride from Chicago or Detroit. They're opening up one in Austin, Texas next year. And it seems like they're just growing constantly from the last couple of years. And so everything's so well ran where you know, the kids don't have to think about anything. You have your wake up, you have breakfast and then you have like kind of these class periods almost where you go and do your electives, whether it's archery, rock climbing, zipline, and then like fun stuff, all the fun stuff. And then for sort of like for us and the kids that I was with, I was with 12 year olds, 13 year olds, like 8th graders.
- [48:41]
A
We.
- [48:41]
B
Would have like our clinical session sort of after our electives and we would sit as a bunk together and we would have, you know, like a social worker therapist sit with us and do like these interactive grief like workshops and sit as a bunk and you know, sitting and listening to these kids tell their stories. And you're sitting there, you know, go to camp and be the volunteer to help support these kids and you're like, oh, I gotta just push this down and you know, I gotta fight back tears and whatnot. But like, you know, these, you're listening to a 13 year old, you know, talk about suicide or talk about death and you're just like, what? And, but then you have these big grief heavy moments and they're followed by so much fun and joy and like you're sitting, you're sitting there crying, you're sitting, watching these children cry. 20 minutes later you're in the lake laughing and splashing, like having like a wonderful, a wonderful time together, you know.
- [49:43]
A
And so it was such a healthy way, right to handle grief, right, like for, for the adults and the kids because it's like, it teaches you how to live with it because that's really how you get through it, is you learn how to live with it. And living with it means that sometimes you're really sad, but then it's okay to go and have fun. And that's like, that is such a, it's almost like, I think as a society we need to like figure out how to make that more mainstream than this whole like current view on the stages or you know, or like, like whatever you're supposed to do with grief, like that's, that's what you're supposed to do with grief is, like, feel it. And then you can also have fun. Like, you can also have the time of your life still. Like, you don't have to now live a miserable life because you've lost someone.
- [50:26]
B
No. I read something after Devin passed away that really stuck with me. And it's sort of. You have, like, your portrait of life, and when you lose your person, you end up painting this really big, just dark, black sort of hole on your portrait of life. And it doesn't have to be constant strokes of dark gray, black, you know, colors around that. You get to build moments of color and these beautiful moments while, yeah, you're gonna be sad and you're gonna cry and be upset, but if you can follow it with a really great, beautiful experience afterwards, that's like another beautiful brushstroke. And sort of the way I look at it is at when my time comes, I'm gonna look back and look at my portrait of life and realize even though there's this big black hole here, like, I'm still gonna have a beautiful portrait. I'm still gonna do what I can to paint my beautiful brushstrokes on my portrait when I can. And it's not gonna always be, you know, colorful and beautiful. There's gonna be those moments of dark strokes. But when your times, when your time comes, you can look back and realize that you still painted, like, a really beautiful portrait of life for yourself.
- [51:49]
A
I think that's. I mean, it's beautiful and it's accurate, and it's what life is. Right. Like, and it's such a perfect way to sort of, you know, segue into the kind of closing that I had. Because the closing I had was actually something that you wrote in the survey. Like, I always, you know, I have people do the survey filling out before they come on the show. And I wrote down what you wrote, because I think it kind of ties in with that, and it's also just. So It's a true testament of what we should be doing with our loss, in my opinion. You wrote, living the best life I can because my person can't. Each day I do something that would make them proud. And I think that's awesome. You know what I mean? And I don't know if today this is your thing, but I think he would be so proud of this conversation and, you know, taking his death and turning it into this opportunity, you know, what you did with experience camps, sharing this conversation with others. Right. Like, we're showing people that grief. Yes. It's Horrible. But you can create this beautiful life. Like your life is now, not just forever a black blob. It has black strokes in it because life is dark and scary and all the things, but it's also beautiful. And there's pops of like reds and greens and yellows and like, just to really kill this metaphor, which is what I like to do. Beat it into the ground. Yeah. No, but like, it's just, it's a. I love that and I love what you wrote. Right. Because I think everybody who's lost something can, can benefit from that frame of mind. Right. Like your person's not here to do it. What can you do to make your life even better? In honor, in memory, because of like any of those things?
- [53:39]
B
Yeah. No, life is a gift. Truly life is a gift. And that comes with the positives and the negatives. And you have to be grateful and thankful to be alive and to experience these negative things that you're going to go through in life. That's part of the gift of being alive, is feeling all of these feelings, all of the things, but making it a positive. You know, I know, my brother. I know our people wouldn't want us to sort of sit around and wallow in self pity and be sad and miserable. Like, I know they would want us to be out living our best lives and doing whatever we can that makes us the best lives and living them for them. You know, we. They're not here, so we're here for them and we're going to do whatever we can possible to live our best lives, not just for us, but for them as well.
- [54:25]
A
Austin, thank you. I absolutely. I love, like, I don't want to say anything more because I think that just wraps it up. Like I was like, all I can do is ruin it. I love everything you just said and it's so accurate and it's so true and I'm so sorry for your loss. I really am. It's, you know, it just sucks and grief sucks. But I think that you are doing the things that, that, that make it better. Right? That. And you're keeping him present and I love that. So thank you for being on the show. I appreciate it.
- [54:52]
B
Thanks so much, Heather. I really appreciate it. This is such a great thing that you got going on and it's like a nice reminder for everybody that's listening is that in grief you're. You'll never walk alone. You will always have people that are. That will be there for you, that can be there and support you and just serve a reminder that you know, you, you have people, you have a community, people out there. You have a community. So thank you again, so much. This is awesome. Really, such a great, great opportunity.
- [55:20]
A
No, thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it's did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it to see you next time on A Place of Yes.