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A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast
Dating as a Special Needs Mom: Divorce and Self-Discovery in My 40s
00:19:47
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- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Dutch Bros. Big smiles, rocking tunes and epic drinks. Dutch Bros. Is all about you. Choose from a variety of customizable handcrafted beverages like our Rebel energy drinks, coffees, teas and more. Download the Dutch Bros app for a free medium drink. Plus find your nearest shop, order ahead and start earning rewards offer valid for new app users only. Free medium drink Reward upon registration 14 day expiration terms apply.
- [00:28]
B
See DutchBros.com probably one of the most essential parts of who I am is that I'm really driven by the relationships that I'm in. The people who touch my life and whose lives I touch. And probably a creature that is motivated by love and connection.
- [00:48]
A
Welcome to A Place of Yes. A podcast about how I moved through my darkest hour. And for me, that was in channeling my grief into good. Welcome to the show. Welcome back to A Place of Yes. Last week I sat down with Hilary for part one of our two part series. We explored all things Esme and what it's actually like navigating special needs parenting. This week for part two, we're taking things in a different direction. We discuss divorce, dating and rediscovering identities while parenting a non typical child. It's time for a quick disclaimer though. This episode goes in many different directions and some of them are a little explicit. Listener discretion is advised. With that said though, let's dive into Today's episode, Part 2 with Hilary Sauvoie. Thank you so much for tuning in. I am curious. As we talk about, you know, finding ourselves through relationships with other people, I'm curious. It's been a long time since I've been on a date. What is it like? What are you experiencing? Is it, can you share with us any of the, you know, any of the dirt, really?
- [01:54]
B
Any of the terms? Well, I've got like, I've got a lot of not so awesome stories. I've got some pretty awesome stories also. It had been a long time since I dated, right? Cause I married a guy I started dating when I was 19. So the last time I had dated I didn't have a cell phone.
- [02:10]
A
So boom.
- [02:11]
B
Long way from that to like swipe right, swipe left, swipe right, swipe left. And someone may like drop a photo you don't want in here. So a little different. Just a little different. I am a much happier and much better suited to meeting people in person and organically reacting to them. But apparently that's a thing that doesn't happen. I don't think that happens.
- [02:33]
A
Does It.
- [02:34]
B
No. In fact, I was on a date with a guy. Lovely guy. Lovely guy. I was in. I travel a lot for work, and so, you know, sometimes I go on dates when I'm in different cities just to kind of not be sitting alone in a hotel bar. And I went out with this lovely guy for a nice evening, and I mentioned that I would love to be hit on at a bar. Like, I would love for a guy to just walk up to me and be like, hi, how's your evening? He's like, oh, my God, I would never do that. And I was like, you wouldn't hit on me if. He's like, no, if I saw you in a bar, I would not hit on you. And I was like, wait a minute. Am I, like, deeply insulted? He's like, no, I wouldn't want to spoil your piece. Like, I wouldn't want. I was like, oh, please. You've been very well trained, very exhausting.
- [03:16]
A
Please.
- [03:16]
B
You are super handsome and, like, and a great conversationalist, of course, spoil my peace. And if I want you to go away, I'll tell you to go away. Yeah. I mean, so for dating also, I mean, it's awkward. It's awkward to date as the mom of a child who is a little different, you know, I often will get asked about her. And when do you bring it up? It depends. I mean, sometimes people will say, you know, oh, you have a 13 year old. Oh, she must be dating, doing X, Y and Z. And I struggle in those moments because I may not be ready to talk about it with somebody that I haven't gotten to know very well, but it feels like a lie if I'm like, oh, yeah, sure, she's out at the mall with her friends right now. But it depends. It depends. Sometimes I have these moments lately I've been trying to just be much more upfront with it. Like, the moment, it feels like the right thing. Because that's true. It's just true about me. Like, this is just. This is just who I am and who my daughter is. And I've been pleasantly surprised, actually, by how men react to that and how open they become, I think when I make myself a little bit more vulnerable, which is not something I'm super good at.
- [04:28]
A
Do you think men's ideas shift when you talk about Esme? You know what I mean? Where does that. Because I sometimes think the general public doesn't know anything about medically fragile special needs.
- [04:37]
B
Well, I think it's interesting because it does seem to. It kind of depends on. Also what they're looking for, you know, I have found. This is like a very surprising thing to me is I'm 42 years old. It says on my dating profile I'm 42 years old.
- [04:52]
A
Not lying.
- [04:53]
B
Not lying. And the amount of interest I get from men who are 26 to 30. Oh, really is weird.
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A
Do they want a cougar?
- [05:02]
B
I think they think I have snacks. That's my theory.
- [05:09]
A
At least he's got a lot in that bag. Yeah, that's hilarious.
- [05:14]
B
And with them, like, I actually feel like I like, like that generation of man is like a totally different creature. Like, he's a completely different creature than any kind of man I ever hung out with before. But they're very, like, very mindful and very present and clear about what they're looking for, and they seem to be unbothered. But it may also just be that it's like foreign enough for me to be a mom.
- [05:36]
A
Yep.
- [05:37]
B
That it's like, I don't know. I guess that's just a different kind of mom. Yep.
- [05:40]
A
Yep.
- [05:41]
B
I don't carry snacks.
- [05:44]
A
Not even for yourself?
- [05:45]
B
Really not. I mean, when I have. Because I. I haven't. I have to. Maybe I should put it on my dating profile. My daughter doesn't eat by mouth, so I don't have the kind of snacks that you would expect a 42 year old woman to be walking around with. If they're not disappointed by that, I'll go out on a date with them.
- [05:59]
A
A little asterisk. Please note, snacks not provided. This could be interpreted in different ways. Also, by the way, as we talk about who we are when we are not the biggest job of our life. So who are you other than Esme's mom? What do you write on those dating apps?
- [06:21]
B
I leave it empty as much as I possibly can. Who am I? I'm Hillary. I'm someone who is starting to figure out what she wants and what she needs. I kind of feel like I'm this 42 year old toddler in some respects, just kind of figuring it out. But I do know that probably one of the most essential parts of who I am is that I'm really driven by the relationships that I'm in, the people who touch my life and whose lives I touch. And probably a creature that is motivated by love and connection.
- [06:58]
A
I would say that is 100% accurate.
- [07:00]
B
Also, someone who likes to box, who loves to talk about her daughter, who has a dirty sense of humor and who can be terrifyingly serious on occasion.
- [07:11]
A
Typically not around me.
- [07:13]
B
No, no, you don't bring that side out of me. But your producer does. She's great. We've driven her crazy today, but. But I'm gonna pass this one back to you because that was harder to answer than I expected. So, Heather, who are you?
- [07:30]
A
Oh, I hate these questions. I'm so bad at them. I don't know. I mean, I, I, I'm copying you a little bit, but I was thinking about it when you said it, so. I turned 50 this year, and there's something about turning 50, to me, that has been so. That I have enjoyed so much. I feel a little bit like I am. I'm trying to think of, like, an age where I would say I was living my best life. I don't know, like, 25 or something, you know, like. But I am just a better version of that. Right. Like, I feel like I am making these choices that are not primarily driven by keeping Jake alive or making sure Ethan's safe and he's, you know, going through the teenage years safe and worrying about other things. I think I'm really. I'm wanting to spend time with my husband, who I'm so thrilled that we made it through this journey and still love each other. And with our, like I just spoke earlier, like, our dear friends who have just known us forever, I'm getting to figure out who I am without any of those other labels. And while I can't give a ton of adjectives, but I think I'm fun, and I think I'm a good friend, and I think I care so much about the people I care about, and I care so deeply about things. And while I used to find that too much or, like, over the top, I. Now I'm here for it. Like, I happy with who I am in that respect, and. And I'm happy to kind of keep figuring it out. I'm okay with just not acting my age at all, particularly when with said friends.
- [08:54]
B
Nice. I like that.
- [08:56]
A
Like, I like it. Right? It is what it is.
- [08:58]
B
I like that a lot.
- [08:59]
A
50'S cool. I like it better than 40. And I didn't dislike 40, but 50, yeah. I don't know.
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B
Something to look forward to, I think. So I was pretty psyched by 40, so.
- [09:07]
A
And I was, too. Cause I was kind of like, oh, but 50 is, like, next level.
- [09:11]
B
I'm not gonna rush there, but I'm into it.
- [09:15]
A
Yeah. Something like, down the road to look forward to. Esme is very much like you, that she is her mother's daughter. You guys are super connected, and you're Connected in the ways that she. You are similar, but also just, just that connection. And you speak of knowing her so profoundly well and kind of being able to read the slightest twitch and all of that. Can you talk more about that? Can you just talk about where that, like, how are you guys? How aligned are you guys?
- [09:38]
B
You know, it can be hard to know what, what is me and what is her. And part of that is because we are so closely connected. Part of that also is I think we are a lot alike. She is fiery spirited and funny. She used to, when she was tiny as a toddler, she used to start giggling at things. And I was like, I know she's telling herself jokes. Like she is amusing herself by the absurdity around her, which is exactly what I would be doing. Right. It's like, okay, I can't talk, so I'm going to make fun of all of you in my head.
- [10:06]
A
And sometimes you'll sneak out. Yeah.
- [10:08]
B
Yes, exactly. And so, so yeah, I think that there's something about, I don't know how much of it again is that close connection and the requirement of our being so close and how much of it is just an overlap in our personalities. Because she is my daughter and she's definitely my daughter. But yeah, I mean, there's times I feel like I look at her and I can almost feel in my body what I'm pretty sure she's feeling. And of course I'm afraid I'm wrong sometimes and I try to check myself because I could be projecting and I'm very careful about that. But yeah, sometimes, sometimes I think we can feel each other in that way. And then there's also just the matter of studying somebody for so long. I think it's something that happens also. You study one person and their nonverbal cues for so long, you start to pick up on those in other people who are verbal. But it helps you navigate the world of interacting with all kinds of people. Because, you know, we've all had that experience where someone is talking to you and they're saying the right things, but some little radar is going off. And I think I may be more observant about that than I might be otherwise because of being her mom and because I also try to put myself in her position in her body and how she must feel and having to navigate, needing to communicate small things or big things in small ways.
- [11:23]
A
When you said like, you know, you study someone so, so carefully, right? And you, you can find those cues and those things. And it brought me back because I. There were Times with Jake where. Right. Like, I mean, he would, I swear he would blink differently. And I was like, okay, something's up. Or I'd be like, oh, he's gonna have a fever tomorrow. And sometimes Brian would be like, stop it. You know, like, this is crazy. And then he'd have a fever tomorrow. Like, you know, I mean, it's. You can't really explain it, but it's so next level. And it's interesting. I never thought about it in terms of like, interpersonal communication with other people, but. But I do feel like I always get senses. Like, I feel like I'm a little more in tune to people. And I wonder if that's something that's a. Like, that's a. I never connected that. But I think you're 100% right.
- [12:05]
B
Yeah. Also, that what you read in someone behind their eyes, you know, I think it allows you to tap into something. And also it can attract people to you to know that they're safe with you. I think that maybe there's the other side of this that you give out a certain vibe that says, you know, this is, you know, I'm a safe person.
- [12:28]
A
You know, it's funny that you say that because Brian, this has been like, since our first dates. Like, I have been that person that people just open up to. And it's just always funny. Like, I can meet, I can be sitting on the subway with someone and get off the stop and know, you know, that their mother is about to pass away from cancer. Like, I mean, it's bizarro the things that people will tell me. And even some of Brian's, like, family members, like, would just tell me things that they don't tell anyone else.
- [12:54]
B
And yeah, I'm actually very much the same way. I make friends everywhere I go. And usually, like, even with dating too. I've had the experience of like being out on first and second and third dates with men who tell me, will tell me something and then say, I've never told anybody that before.
- [13:12]
A
Like, okay, dude, settle back, settle down.
- [13:16]
B
But I am walking around with a lot of people's secrets. There is something to that, maybe a predisposition. And then we wind up with our magical children who help us sort of hone that.
- [13:27]
A
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- [13:58]
B
And I think that actually it also comes from a fundamental curiosity. Right. About people and who they are and what makes meaning for them in life.
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A
Do you know what the Long Island Compromise is?
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B
No.
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A
So according to this book, which is very good, it's the author of Fleischman's in Trouble, so it's just this very funny Jewish family character, blah, blah, blah. But the Long Island Compromise is what Jewish girls apparently would do when they didn't want to have sex. They would let you have anal. It's the Long Island Compromise.
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B
So I did not. That's a very funny, fun fact. Unexpected overlap with a conversation I had last week about the song called the Loophole.
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A
Oh, what is that?
- [14:38]
B
Is that. It's a song, not a. It's for Christians.
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A
Okay.
- [14:43]
B
And the chorus is me in the. For Jesus. Oh, because I love Jesus. Sorry. Me in the. Because I love Jesus.
- [14:52]
A
That's wild to me. Like, so I did not know what the Long Island Compromise was. And then I'm reading that and I'm like, holy. Did I just read that? I'm like, oh, that's not a great trade off, in my opinion.
- [15:03]
B
But that does say something about, like, the commitment to virginity. That's like.
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A
I just can't imagine it being that important. But apparently, if you're religious, oh, my God.
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B
You can break while you're riding a horse.
- [15:16]
A
Come on, people.
- [15:18]
B
I just wanted it over with. Me, too. I was like, I don't like not knowing how to do things, so just, could we do this this one time? And then I'll know everything.
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A
Come on. And just be.
- [15:28]
B
Save that for someone important. It was get good for someone.
- [15:32]
A
Figure it out for someone important. There you go. You got a little bonus. Yeah.
- [15:37]
B
This is the whole other podcast. Yeah.
- [15:39]
A
Here we are.
- [15:40]
B
Yeah. So I think being there for somebody, I think it is actually just allowing for that whole mixture of things. Like, I feel like I can move really quickly from being very irreverent to being very deep and emotional, to being, like, livid. I think someone that can follow that and keep up and keep up and not judge it. But, yeah, I mean, I think finding opportunities to live in lighter spaces, like. Yeah. To joke about sex. Because you know what? My life for so long didn't have any room for any of that. There wasn't a lot of joy that wasn't totally Esme focused. And so getting to spend time talking about things that are joyful. And sex is joyful when it's done right.
- [16:26]
A
Otherwise, it's just weird.
- [16:29]
B
But, like, I think there's that sense of, like, when you're just surviving the things that you need. And then when you can move beyond just surviving, there's all this whole other world opens up. Yeah. I mean, I really like having fun and goofing off in a way.
- [16:46]
A
It's the answer in different versions, but that we both gave about who we are. Right. Because when you live this world that is so devoid of fun because you're so worried all of the time to finally figure out that, wait, it's okay to have fun and it's okay to laugh and it's okay to be silly. And that's. I think what I'm really embracing in my life right now is just the. Like. I don't know. Like, I don't. Not to oversimplify it, but just sort of when you can have fun because the world's gonna go on without you either way, and the bad things are gonna happen and, like, it's just.
- [17:18]
B
And the good things are gonna happen with both. The bad things usually are gonna happen with you no matter what. And the good things you might miss. Yeah.
- [17:26]
A
If you're too worried about the other things. And you got it. Yeah.
- [17:29]
B
Yeah. And I think it's funny, you know, we. We spent a lot of time talking about dating and joking about sex, but I think that that has. It's weird because those moments for me, those moments to, like, allow myself to be present and joyful in that way, were so important to me. Transitioning to allowing myself to become more fully myself. As I'm talking, I'm realizing how much I think even in the answer that I gave for who I am. It's like how driven I am or defined I am by my relationships with other people. Which is a little scary because maybe it's transferring my focus on my daughter to someone else and my friends, my family, and perhaps, you know, the long list of wonderful love affairs I intend on having for the rest of my life. But that is really, truly how, in some ways, we do get to know ourselves. Right. We know ourselves in juxtaposition to other.
- [18:28]
A
People, how we are with other people.
- [18:30]
B
And what they tell us about us and what they show us about us and help us become.
- [18:34]
A
All right. We end our show. You might remember this from last time, although I feel like that was an Ask Heather anything. But if you've got another Ask Heather anything, not so deep. I'm not sure I have any more.
- [18:44]
B
Oh, I know. Do you know any single men?
- [18:49]
A
Well, let me tell you, I tell you about my friend Steve. Steve is Brian's best friend since kindergarten. He has never been married. He is like godfather to Ethan and Jake. Ethan calls him Uncle Steve. He is one of the greatest people I know. Brian will laugh and say, he is like, I'm an only child. So he is the brother I've never had. So I think Steve, I think you and Steve should date.
- [19:12]
B
Okay.
- [19:13]
A
Next time you're in Boston, I will set it up. Yeah, I was gonna say, be careful if you're listening.
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B
Steve. Hi, Steve. I don't carry snacks.
- [19:23]
A
Thank you so much for coming back. I hope that we will see you again this season.
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B
I would be very, very happy to come back. Thanks for. Thanks for having me again.
- [19:31]
A
Before we wrap up today, I want to share a book that truly moved me, the Manicurist's Daughter by Susan Liu. It's a powerful memoir about Susan's search for answers and after her mom's tragic death during a botched plastic surgery. Susan was just 11 when this happened and had gotten in a fight with her mom that morning. Her mother built a thriving life in California after leaving Vietnam, but her sudden loss left years of unanswered questions about their family's past, the ideals of beauty, and the surgeon who caused her death. This story is raw, emotional, and deeply inspiring. Next week, I'll be sitting down with Susan to talk about her journey and the incredible resilience it took to uncover her family's truth. I can't wait for you to hear it, so just grab a copy of the book if you can, and I'll see you next time on A Place of Yes. Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. Please follow us wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you really like this episode, please share it with a friend. It would make a world of difference if we could just reach more people and share the work that we do and the stories we want to tell. Thank you so much for watching.