B (3:01)

I think what comes to mind immediately is that I started trail running about a year ago, year and a half ago, and I have been saying yes to my own curiosity about what can I do. I run with a group of women weekly, and we sometimes talk about running events and different distances and goals and stuff. And I have done two race events this summer, which is new for me. I never did that. And then I'm now just kind of following that curiosity of like, oh, I wonder if I could do this event. So I signed up for one that's on the 22nd of November. I did recently learn that those of us that are carrying some traumas of some sort, it's the rhythm of those long distances where you're just focusing on your steps and your breath and everything, that it's very cathartic for us for healing and just to kind of escape to that. I don't know about you, but, like, the chaos of everything going on in the world, plus whatever else we're dealing with, like getting into some sort of endurance activity, you're not thinking about a lot of that stuff for that period of time. And I think that's so good for us to just take a break from it.

A (4:29)

No, I agree. And, and, and for me at that time, it was. Honestly, I always sort of said it was a little bit like life saving because it just got me and exactly that. It got me out of my own head.

B (4:38)

Yeah.

A (4:39)

Even if it was just trying to, like, remember to breathe, because I was like, before that, I'd, you know, I was like, I would run three miles, just more for, like, fitness or calorie burn or like, whatever. And then all of A sudden I was, like, going out and doing, like, 8, 10 miles, like, and I was sort of enjoying it, which was very strange. No. So that's interesting. Well, I. I wish you the best of luck on the 22nd. I will be thinking of you.

B (5:01)

That.

A (5:02)

That's a super exciting challenge for sure. Yeah.

B (5:05)

Thank you.

A (5:07)

So let's start talking, if you are good with it, about your mom. And would you be willing to share a little bit just about her and her story?

B (5:16)

Yeah, absolutely. So my mom was this wonderful, loving woman. She's a lot of. I have her to thank for a lot of the things that have really given my life. Love and depth and vibrancy. She was always a great neighbor, Loved running into people, loved very generous. She would make special gifts and cook things for people in the community. She was a volunteer at the local theater for many years, building sets and costumes. She sewed our clothes and costumes when we were kids. She was an amazing cook and gardener and knew how to take care of animals and had so much compassion for animals. You know, a lot of these things that I've. I've can see in myself that have been influenced by her and nurtured by her, too, and then also an incredible artist. You know, you can have creativity in your family, but if it's not nurtured, if you don't have. If you aren't given the materials and the time and some encouragement, it's like this wonderful concoction of, like, you will have an artist if you provide these things for your child. And I had all of that in spades, thanks to my mom and my dad. There's creativity definitely on both sides, but she, ever since I could remember, was creating things. She was a folk. She would call herself her folk artist because she never had any formal training, but she always painted and did wood carvings and, you know, of animals and different scenes. And she actually used to do a lot of craft fairs, and that's where she had her most. Her biggest success. There was a big boom of those in the 80s, and she did a really good job. And we would travel to places like Vermont, which is why I ultimately ended up here, because I had some of the best memories of coming to the shows with her. When she packed up all our things to the craft fairs, it was just like I came from a flat area, from Watertown, New York, and pastoral and everything. And then just seeing the mountains, I was just like this magical place, and I wanted to come back here.

A (7:55)

Well, that's awesome. In a place where you felt connected to her. As well.

B (7:58)

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

A (8:01)

So how long ago did she pass away?

B (8:05)

It was. Gosh, last. Was it last January? No, two years ago.

A (8:13)

Isn't that crazy how, like, it's such a monumental thing, but it's hard to, like, process. I feel like time is hard to process with grief. Right.

B (8:20)

Like, it is, because you want. You're, like, kind of stuffing it away.

A (8:24)

Yep.

B (8:25)

But you're. You want to honor it.

A (8:27)

It's like, you know, it's hard to find that balance, I think, for sure. And, you know, emotions around grief. Right. Like, it's just so hard. Like, there's, like. And there's the sadness, which is sort of, in some cases, you know, the kind of the primary feeling, but it's also the expected feeling. And I think then there's also these other things. And you and I had talked about this when we first spoke, and it was kind of. We talked about that when, you know that it's happening, like, when you start to process grief before the actual death.

B (9:01)

Yeah.

A (9:02)

And, you know, they have, like, a fancy name for that, like anticipatory loss. Anticipatory grief. But the fact is that sometimes can be challenging. Right. Because you're trying. It's like you're grieving before it even happens. And then. Can you share some of those feelings? Because I think, you know, we had talked about, like, how you experienced some of that.

B (9:22)

Yeah, I think so. My. My dad actually explained that to me when his wife Kathy passed away. And, like, you had mentioned, she passed about a year before my mom did. And, you know, he. When he called to tell me that day, he's like. He's like, obviously, I'm heartbroken. He's like. But I've been preparing this. Preparing for this for the last year because she had been very sick with glioblastoma, the brain cancer. And I can absolutely relate to that. My mom's health was never great.

A (10:07)

As.

B (10:07)

Long as in the lifetime that I knew her. It was better, obviously, when she was younger. So for a couple years before she passed away, my sister's brother and I, we were all kind of dealing with the ups and downs of some close ones.

A (10:28)

And.

B (10:30)

You know, her struggles with just trying to heal and navigate all the emotions and difficulties of living with, you know, all of her health issues. She had heart issues, high blood pressure and congestive heart failure and liver issues ultimately were what took her. But, yeah, I think it definitely takes its toll on you, the anticipatory grief. Just, I remember trying to do things that I had been doing, like Going out and mountain biking, it fills you with some stress, but also some good chemicals to get through that.

A (11:30)

It's like that good adrenaline or something. Yeah.

B (11:32)

But I remember there were times when I was asking a lot of myself in that. Within that sport, and then I was feeling like I just couldn't operate like I normally was because I felt like I was so stripped with. And filled with cortisol and, like. But I didn't realize that until after. Like, that's what was wrong. I kept beating myself up. Like, what is wrong with me? I can't do anything. And it's like, no, like, your. Your whole body is feeling this, and you. You only have so much to give. And within that stress.

A (12:08)

It's one of the things that. I think these conversations are so important and helpful because what you are describing so many people feel, whether it's anticipatory or in the hearts of. Of grief. And we have this image in society of what grief looks like, and so often it shows itself in such different ways, and that's kind of it. Right. So we're, like, mad at ourselves for, like, not being able to perform or to get the work done or to accomplish what we think we should or typically could. But we have to give ourselves that space. And even. But before we can even give ourselves space, we have to understand what it's coming from. And I think that's kind of what you're saying, right? Like, it's so hard.

B (12:50)

Had I known, I would have given myself more grace. Absolutely.

A (12:55)

Because it is. It's just. It, like, sneaks up on you and you don't know what it is. And I think for so many people, they experience things like that, whether it is through. Through mountain biking or through work or through just. I don't understand why I'm not accomplishing what I usually do. You know, it's just that heaviness and stress. Right. Like, it is. Your body is stressed, and it's showing you that it's stressed, but we don't always know what to do with that.

B (13:22)

Absolutely.

A (13:25)

There was a story you told, and I'm hoping you can share it with the audience, because it has actually. It has stayed with me in so many ways. You told the story of, like, where you were and what you were doing when you learned of your mom's passing.

B (13:39)

Thanks.

A (13:40)

There's so much about that. Sorry. No, I went right in. But I just love that story, so I was hoping you would be comfortable sharing that and then we could talk a little bit about it, because I think there were so many important pieces.

B (13:55)

So, yes, like I said, it. It had been years of my mom's health decline, and then, you know, just the ups and downs of that. But basically, anyone that's gone through something similar, you're always waiting for that phone call. It was a Sunday, and typically in the winters and the Sundays, we would go ski with friends at our local hill at Piko Mountain. And I had gone in to warm up, grab a drink of water, and happened to check my phone, and there was a voicemail from my sister. And it's funny, you picture finding out in a certain way, but you never know how it's going to happen. And I just didn't anticipate finding out in this way. So my sister left the information on a voicemail, and now I understand. I think she just. She wanted me to know as soon as possible. She didn't want me to find out some other weird way, like on a Facebook post or something. So if she couldn't reach me, she left a voicemail. And I totally understand that. So I tried to call her. I think we weren't able to connect immediately, but then I think we eventually connected. And it was short, kind of. She was making a lot of calls and everything. She's the oldest, so kind of she was taking on that responsibility of letting more of the extended family know. But, yeah, so I. I talked to her, and then I remember just like, sitting down on the floor in the lodge, and the lodge was busy. It was like, you know, a holiday week or something. It was like a powder day. So it was just people all around, everyone's out. But in a way that was kind of comforting because it was just kind of like you could kind of just feel unnoticed and just kind of like sink into that. And so I sat there for a little bit, and then I think I was able to tell my husband. Ultimately, I decided to just hop back in the lift line. Mom died in January. And this kept coming up for me. Like, the. The feeling guilty about just wanting to go ski and be around people felt weird to me. And it's again, like this what you think you're supposed to do. It's like all these preconceived notions of how it's supposed to look. But it just felt like what I needed to do in that moment. And again, I'd been preparing for it, so I was very sad and still kind of processing it, and didn't. It didn't feel real, but I wanted to be around my friends, and they had their children with them, and they always just make me so happy, all of them, and my husband and I just kind of like let myself be wrapped in their joy and kindness and understanding and just let myself, you know, go make some turns and zone out in that for a couple minutes and then hop back on the chairlift. Maybe we say a couple more things about it. They let me curse and, you know, we go do it again. And it just, yeah, it felt strange, but also it felt like just so normal. It just felt like this is how I, this is how I've been dealing with all this all along, you know, and anything, not just with what my mom was going, but anything that was ups and downs with life. Like anyone that is an outdoor athlete of any kind, like, it's still such a part of you and it's how we get through our everyday, like, whatever is going on. So, yes, is the heaviest thing to bring out there, but it just felt kind of natural, I think.

A (17:43)

I mean, I honestly, I'm so grateful that you were willing to share that story because I do think it's so. I mean, I think it's a beautiful story. Right. And I think that it is also, you know, you touched on so many things, right? And in that moment, like a. You're constantly in that type of situation, you're waiting for like, the ball to drop, the phone call, you know, you, you, you know it's going to happen. And even when you know it's going to happen, it happens at just, you're, you're still never ready. You're ready, but you're not ready. And I think allowing yourself to, you know, there's nothing. Have you dropped everything and went home? Nothing would have changed. Right. Like that's, and, and that's a little bit when you talk about, like this expectation that we have created, whether it's like the Hollywood image or just, you know, whatever that is of what grief should look like and what you should do. It's really so personal. Right? And I just think the fact that you could take that moment and I totally get what you say about, like, you know, how it's kind of comforting being surrounded like that. It was a busy, busy day of skiing and people in the lodge. So it's almost like you're surrounded. You're not alone, but you're also kind of invisible. Everyone's doing their own thing, like they're not really paying attention to you. But then you're with your most important people and you're having this moment and it's almost like, I don't know, Like, I envision almost, you know, like, yes, you're. You're pissed and you're kind of cursing, and you're this. But you're also having this moment with your mom maybe, like, and having these, like. You know, I just think it's so important, and I just thought it was such a beautiful way to honor her and to honor your own grief. So I. I just love those moments because I think when we give into them, they end up being healing as opposed to doing what we think we're supposed to do.

B (19:31)

Absolutely. Like, why. Why do we do that to ourselves.

A (19:35)

You know, about everything. Right. Like, not just grief, but, like, I do think, like, you know, now you've got this, like, hey, this is. This is where I was when I learned it. And instead of it being super dark, it's kind of like I was surrounded by these really important people, and it was. And I did the thing I love to do, and it's almost part of the process of healing, as opposed to a dark memory, for sure.

B (19:58)

And then that place also becomes, like, an extension of home, too, if I feel very comfortable there. And so kind of. Although it feels odd to be at a ski resort and still remain there when it happened, it just, you know.

A (20:13)

Well, I also think there's that moment, too, of, like. And I don't know if this was for you, but I can think of it in some of my own experiences. It's like, I think of life in, like, the before or after sometimes.

B (20:23)

Right.

A (20:23)

Like, what it was like right before Jake died, before I knew that, you know, like. And sometimes you want to live in that before just a second more, and it's, you know, it's a little different because once, you know, you know. But, like, it's before you get into the phone calls and the conversations, and there's that piece of grief, too, where, like, you're letting people know, but then you're. Even though you're the one feeling all the feels, you're making other people feel better. You know what I mean? Like, it's. Before any of that happens, you get this, like, little reprieve almost of, like, just to sit with it.

B (21:03)

No, you're so right. I think that may have been part of it, too. It's like, yes, I was talking about it and letting myself process it, but I was also kind of putting off that time when I go home and have to be in a room by myself and think about it and face.

A (21:19)

It in a different way.

B (21:21)

Yeah. Yeah, I was able to also. This also felt like a weird Part of grieving, but just in the conventional sense. But, like, for the following several weeks after that, that was when it, like, felt really heavy and isolating. And I remember, like, I would just. It would be the end of the day, kind of the afternoon. There'd be, like, one hour left of the mountain being open, and I will have done whatever I could for work for the day or nothing. And then I would just pack up all my stuff and make myself go. And I would often be alone. I would just hop on the chairlift, but just, like, getting that fresh air. And, like. So my mom always thought winter was beautiful, but she didn't like being cold. And she. She was like, I don't know how you do that. She's like, it seems it sounds so cold. I'm sure we all know somebody like that.

A (22:21)

Yeah.

B (22:22)

But it always. It felt like I was also spending time with her, like, when I'm out in nature. So that felt really good. And that was an important part of my grieving and acceptance, was just making those little hour here, hour there windows happen.

A (22:43)

I think they're like, do you still feel like you do that? Like, when you're out in, like, whether you're, like, biking or running? Like, do you still feel like those are.

B (22:51)

Yeah, like, I feel like I carry it with a sense of pride. Like, you know, like, when the spring ephemerals are blooming in the. In the woods, I'll be out on the trails by myself or with friends, and I'll just, like, get so excited because, like, oh, my God, the lady slippers are blooming. And, you know, it just feels like I know a lot of that stuff because either my mom taught me or she encouraged me to just be so curious and look all of these things up. And so I have a lot of friends. I was like, carrie, how do you. How do you know all this stuff? And it's like, well, either because I was encouraged to, like, really geek out on this or because my mom told me and some things, like, I only know them by the common names that my mom taught me in. In other areas, regions, people are like, we don't call them that. I was like, sorry. That's what my mom told me.

A (23:42)

I love that, though. Right. And I. I think that, you know, it's so important for us to have those kind of connections with our people.

B (23:50)

And especially.

A (23:53)

I don't know if especially is the right word, but, like, you know, human relationships are complicated, right? And. And. And all of them are, you know, some more than others. And I think we had talked a little bit about, like, there were some complications as often as, you know, like, in relationships. And a lot of that comes up in grief. Like, frankly, even with Jake, you know, like, all these years later, and even though he was only four and he was my son, but there's always, like, there's guilt and there is. I hate to even say, but there's, like, relief sometimes. Like, there's all of these things that you sort of. Or that I. All these years later, still I'm trying to come to terms with. Right. Because it's horrible. I wish he never passed. I did not see it coming. But there was. I can look back at that and sort of say our life got a little simpler. Like, it just. It was so hard. Some days they were so hard. And then that feels also horrible. It feels horrible even saying it all these years later now. So I feel like that is something that people don't really acknowledge in their grief is that there's all these other things. There's so much more than just sadness. There is, you know, those things. And I think we had touched a little bit on that. On that feeling of, like, what does it look like? And how do you, like, reconcile all those different feelings? Like, I know I'm always trying to still not feel bad or not feel like I'm feeling something wrong or like. And even though I know that grief looks so many different ways, it's still hard to always believe it and feel okay with it.

B (25:20)

Yeah, I mentioned it earlier, like, just giving yourself grace because we can be really hard on ourselves and relationships are so complicated. And mine. My relationship with my mom was complicated. You know, for all of these positive things I've said, there's. There was a lot of difficulty for us. And so with that comes sadness, regret, anger, like all these other things and like, you know, the woulda, shoulda, coulda's, and what if this was different? And. But also, like, you know, forgiveness for your parent because they. I think a lot of us, like, it helps knowing that a lot of our parents just did the best that they could with what they had, you know, at that time, you know, whether it was, like, emotionally functioning, you know, financially, like, wherever they were in life, they were just trying to do their best. And so, yeah, I think grace has helped me a lot just in processing everything. And because I can be hard on myself. And I think it's just also, like, the nature of my job. It's a lot of. There's so much time and space for introspection and thoughts and there's so many thoughts. And, like, I even have, like, a name for, like, when negative thoughts start creeping in and they're of no use and they're just. They're. They're bad news. Like, her name is Constance, and I sing. Oh, wow. Constance. I love that. That doesn't do us any good. You don't even know if that's true. You know, it's none of our business what other people are thinking. Like, let's just work on this painting.

A (27:01)

I actually love that you gave it a name.

B (27:03)

I love that I heard somewhere. I love that. But it really helps, like, identify, like, because, you know, we are not all of our thoughts. Like, our brains are just, like, doing over, trying nonsense. And so it's helped me kind of just like, separate and kind of get the little devil off my shoulder. And it's like, no, this is just. We're doing the best we can and let's not.

A (27:31)

Oh, my God, I love that so much. Yeah. Because it's true. You can go down this rabbit hole. And sometimes, like I've. I've said sometimes I think the rabbit hole is also important. Like, if there's a place for it. But there's a place for knowing. For me, there's a place for it. But I'm. Because I'm so regimented with things, sometimes I'll be like, okay, you have 15 minutes to go down the rabbit hole.

B (27:55)

Yeah. And then stop comment on it.

A (27:57)

I do. Because otherwise, you know, who knows what'll happen?

B (28:00)

Right?

A (28:01)

But I, you know, it could get dark. But I think that, like, also you're right. Our brains are constantly coming up with ways to make already hard situations harder sometimes. Right. So it's like, I love that almost. And almost the lightness of it, of being able, like, to say, like, constance, back off. Like, I'm busy.

B (28:22)

You know, like, who invited you in here?

A (28:24)

Yeah, get out of town. And almost giving yourself, like, a giggle over it. Like, I love that. Yeah, that's awesome.

B (28:31)

Having a silly name helps too. Like, that's not a common name and, you know, very perfect.

A (28:37)

So it's funny, I have a friend and who. Who's also been a guest, but he often will text me after an episode and say, like, I can't tell you everything about the guest at all, but I always have, like, one takeaway. And it's been just. It's been giving me sort of this different perspective of the young show and kind of my thing. And I realized that I have that too. So I feel like this is my takeaway I'm not sure what the name's gonna be yet, but I'm gonna have, like. I'm naming it. I love it.

B (29:02)

I love it. I love it.

A (29:03)

It's so good. I wanna talk a little bit about, you know, when we first. When I first connected with you, I was thinking of you as. And we even talked about this. I was like, okay, you're an artist. You know, through this grief, your art must have changed. And I love actually what you said. You were like, well, not as much because, like, I love painting, but painting is really. It's. It's my job, and it's sort of what I do. But writing is this place where, like, you have evolved and you feel like it's helped you process your grief. You actually wrote this quote on. On the survey, and I wrote it down because I. I love it. Like, I've been. As someone who's been using writing as a way to sort of process a lot of things, I love this. You wrote, grief is isolating, and writing helped me build a bridge back to connection. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because I just think that's so beautifully said.

B (29:53)

Yeah, I think that. Thank you. I think that words in some ways can be more accessible for a larger group of people. Like, I think a lot of people can appreciate art, but, like, a lot of, like, people that are within my reach, say, on Instagram or Facebook or wherever, I would maybe share whatever what I've written. They might not relate to this as well because it's a snow scene, you know, but, like, with the words, you know, everyone can kind of just start diving in. And if they can start to, like, if any of it makes sense or resonates with them, you know, we can connect that way, and I can go on that path. I don't know why I've. I don't know where my earliest connections with writing go. I do remember really loving writing in college. Like, we had to write so many papers. And, yes, it was. It was a, like, form of dread also. But it's really just, like, it was something that I. A craft that I loved building. And I found now that it's another way to help also build a bridge to talk about my work too. Because sometimes just putting a painting out there, it's just like, okay, well, what does this mean to you? Why is this important to you, Carrie? So, yeah, writing about grieving and writing about my mom was really cathartic in that I could just, like, I could really highlight what was so special about mom and Then also talk about, you know, why. You know, how she helped me and how. And how much of her is in me. And it really became a way to also, like, just bring her forward and celebrate her. No.

A (31:55)

So there's two things you said that made me think of, and one is like a writing question, and it's. Do you, like, do you journal and do you use that as sort of. Or do you just kind of have something and you write about it? And I'm always interested in that because I have people who I've talked to on the show and other Just friends or colleagues who swear by journaling. They're like, you know, you really connect with a part of you that you've never known. I don't do it. I don't, like, not do it, but I don't. I've never had that, like, deep spiritual connection through journaling. I often just kind of, like, write what is. It's interesting. Like, those thoughts that I can't get rid of. Sometimes I find that there's a piece there. There's something that I want to write, and whether anybody else reads it or not is sort of almost irrelevant. But it helps. It's like, almost my own therapy of, like, once I figure out what it is that, like, won't stop talking and. But I won't stop hearing in my head. Like, I put it down. It helps. So what. How do you do it? Do you do it by. Or all of the above.

B (32:50)

So I would journal. I don't have, like, a regimented, like, you know, I'm going to journal every morning for an hour or whatever. There are definitely, like, all kinds of schools of thought that, like, you need to have some sort of a journaling schedule or something.

A (33:08)

Really.

B (33:08)

I've always, like, had, like, a sketchbook, at the very least, which I also write in. I remember I wrote a lot of poems in high school. You know, you have all that, like, anguish and everything. You want to get out. And so, yeah, I think. I think it's just whenever I feel like I need to get it out. You know what I mean? And I recently, in the last, like, three, four years, have an addiction to these spiral notebooks, which is so silly. They're very basic. But I really like this. This kind of decomposition ones. They have all these artist designs on them, and there's a ton of them here in my studio. So they're filled with painting ideas and, like, information about my taxes and trips I want to go to.

A (33:55)

And then.

B (33:55)

But there'll also be, like, three pages about mom and so it's just. It's nice to. I really like the physical form of, like, having paper. And this is another, like, I cannot get enough of a nicely sharpened. Yes. Number two pencil. These are Ticonderoga, too.

A (34:13)

Yep. Number two.

B (34:15)

Yeah. And it's so funny. Like, I just love stationary, but.

A (34:20)

Well, it's so funny that you held up that notebook, because if I wasn't upstairs, like, downstairs, where all my other stuff is, I have one, and my husband sometimes makes fun of me. I've been doing this for years, though. But it's exactly what you just said. It could have, like. Like, what I'm doing today. It could have, like, my grocery list. It could have, like, dinners for the week. It could have, like, some of my best writing I've ever done. It could have, like, a page of doodles. Like, it just. It's like, everything. And then when it's filled, I go to another one. Yeah. And I don't know. Like, I feel like if someone were to look at that, they'd be like, what the hell is happening in Heather's head? Because it's. There is no structure. There is no rhyme or reason.

B (35:02)

Like, how do I place, you know, or anything? It's like, I feel like if I didn't do it, everything would just be, like, spinning around in my brain. I had a meeting with some artists at a gallery recently. I'm part of an artist guild. And one of them asked, well, did you paint today? And I said, no. But you know what I did? I took all of those ideas that have been circling around in a blender in my brain, and I wrote them all down today. And that, like, that itself just, like, felt like an enormous weight lifted.

A (35:36)

Well, it's like a deep breath, like, okay. And it's so interesting because I feel like those type of things, like, when I talk about, like, takeaways for people or whatever, like, sometimes, you know, and we talked a little about it a little bit. Like, the way that grief comes out. Like, you know, people can think or, you know, they can think that grief is just sadness or grief is just crying, but grief can be, like, all these things happening in your head at the same time. And sometimes you just need to organize it. You know what I mean? Like, and you just need to find a place for it. So it's like, here are all these painting ideas. I can't even start to think about doing the painting until I sort of have a list to choose from or a list to organize or a list to think about. I. I think that grief looks. And then that's not to say, like, I think I would have these notebooks anyways. I think I'm always sort of like that. But I do think that one of the things or one of the ways that grief ongoingly impacts me is just that steady rhythm in the back of my head. Like, that it's always there. And that sometimes when I'm not overly busy or, like, there's not a lot going on, then I can manage it. But sometimes it's just that thing that's always there when there's too much. And it's hard to. Yeah, it's hard to work through it. So. One of the things I always like to talk with people about, too, is this idea about how grief can change us, but also it changes our relationships. Right. Like, it can change the way that we interact with people. It can change how we view ourselves. If, you know, husbands, children, if you have children, friends, like, all of the things can have. Can be impacted by it. And I. For me, it's one of the things that I have had to work the hardest to manage. And I don't always know if it's because it was the loss of my son. And that just has the ability to. If I let it make me like a crazy mother to like my other son, because I. You know, if I. If allows me to live in fear and, like, worry. And what if this happens again? Like, those. Like, that's my Constance. Right? Like, that's. That's the one I need to be. Like, constance, go away. Like. Or whatever my name is gonna be.

B (37:54)

But, like, that's the.

A (37:55)

That's the cycle that I can get stuck in.

B (37:57)

Yeah.

A (37:58)

So I know that I have to be diligent about that. But I also know that with grief comes this ability to have, like, in my mind, like, deeper relationships and value things in a different way. And also frustrated with people who don't value life enough. I think, you know, I. I get kind of all of the things. But how do you feel like your relationships have changed?

B (38:21)

I think it's gotta. It gives most of us more empathy, right. Because, like, it is like, it's something you don't wish on your worst enemy because it's just. The pain is undescribable. Like, you. You can't compare it to anything. I remember when I was going through is so isolating. You think that, like, you're the only one, because it's just so strong, that feeling. And like I mentioned, I was. I'm part of an artist guild and a Lot of these artists are older than me. Most of them are. And so most of them have already lost their parents. And I remember there was a moment where it, like, clicked with me. I was talking to one of them about it, and I was thinking the way I was talking about it, you know, it felt like it was just like a very me experience and very individual. And then I'm like, no. Like, all of these people have gone through it and, like, I'm asking for, like, hey, you know, maybe can I switch days with someone? I'm asking for these things, for this grace from others and just kind of feeling like, well, this is just happening to me. But it's like, no, they all remember they're either going through it or will be soon or have.

A (39:38)

And it's.

B (39:38)

And they, you know, it's hurt them too. So I think it helps you connect with other people too. And I know, too, it's helped me enjoy a lot of the smaller things even more. Kind of always felt like I could let a lot of the small things in and really appreciate, like, a blooming flower, you know, things I see outside and a good meal and whatnot. And I get that from my mom. But I feel like that even stronger now, you know, because life so short.

A (40:12)

And I. I feel like I say that all the time and it. And sometimes I'm always like, oh, my God, Heather, you're like one walking cliche. Like, I literally am. Like, everything that I say, I'm like. But I'm also like, they're true, right? Like, life is too short. And when you've experienced loss, that is, you know, you. You said it perfectly. Like, it can just, you know, everyone experiences it, but it feels like you feel so alone and feel. I know. I felt, like, kind of crazy too. Like, I just felt like, so lost in my thoughts. And so, like, even though you know, other people are going through it, it's like you forget. It's like it almost makes you. I don't want to say selfish, but it just makes you so, like. Or it made me so, like, self absorbed. Like, I just. It took me a while to recognize even that my husband was going through this, that my parents were grieving their grandson and watching and grieving. Like they're being sad because they're seeing their dog, their only daughter, like a mess. Like, it impacts everybody. But sometimes it's hard to recognize that.

B (41:15)

It's almost like we act that way because it's similar to, like, when you have a physical traumatic wound, right? We get very, like, protective and we're very like, you know, this is what's happening to me. This is an emergency. Like, this is. This is everything right now. And it's funny. It almost felt like that for me, too. It was like, this is like the center. This is everything bad. Like, this needs all the attention. And it's like, no. Everybody's. A lot of people are going through the same thing at this very moment.

A (41:48)

And it's definitely one of the things that this show has given me even more insight to. Right? And it's everybody, right? Like, everybody can be part of these conversations one way or another, whether it is their own personal loss or whether it's their best friend or their spouse or whoever has lost something.

B (42:08)

Right?

A (42:08)

Like, it's like everybody, you see it, like, at the grocery store, you know, has their own grief story. And if. If they have. If they don't, then it's one of those things that they will. Right? Like, it is. It's. It's just. It's a thing that I almost feel should be so much more, like, unifying than it is. Like, it's. We always talk about how alone and isolating it is, but there's really. It is something that, as humans and as community that we are all experiencing. So it's. It's why I love these conversations, because it just makes me feel so connected to people that I would never have thought about being connected to before. Right.

B (42:47)

It's kind of cool. Yeah. I really love. Again, I mentioned it before, but I love the word griever. I never hear that. And that is something that I feel like can connect more of us. And just, like, you know, because it is. It's something that, you know, can makes us as. As painful as it is. It really, you know, can give us a fuller life. We're feeling all the emotions we get, you know, to appreciate more of life because we have, you know, gone through this pain.

A (43:22)

I actually learned that term from a guest on the show. Her name is Shay Wingate. And she was. She used to be on. I think she still might be on Instagram as, like, the grief girly. And she would just start showing up on my, like, you know, feed or whatever you call it. And I just, like, I really loved her, like, take on it. So I ended up, like, connecting with her, and she had quite a grief story, and she just. That was one of her things. Like, she just was like, well, we're all Grievers, and same as you. Like, it just became something that I started using because I just thought it was such A. It was such a nice way of saying it without making you feel, like, different or. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes you can be like, oh, you've lost your mom, or, oh, you've lost your son. And that becomes your primary identity. And I struggle with that sometimes. So I just like this fact that it's sort of like a universal identity that so many of us share.

B (44:14)

Yeah, absolutely.

A (44:17)

So one of the things you had mentioned, too, was that you found really helpful getting, like, little gifts from friends. And I love the idea, again, of, like, I feel like I've said the word takeaway a lot this. This episode, but I love the idea of, like, people who are listening who. Who always say, like, I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do.

B (44:37)

Yeah.

A (44:38)

And you had mentioned this earlier, I think about, like, how you still want to, like, you know, when you're. When you're out in nature or when you're painting or any of these things when you can. Or writing. And, like, it gives you that time to think about your person. And ultimately, I think that's what so many of us want to do, is have this space to think and talk and mention their name and all of those things. So if you don't mind sharing, like, what are some of those little gifts from friends that really were impactful, that really made a difference and maybe could be, like, food for thought for people who are listening.

B (45:07)

Yeah. So. Oh, gosh, it is so tough to reach out to someone that is grieving and because you feel like there's nothing that you can say and you're so afraid to say the right. The wrong, wrong thing. And I know I've been in that position, and. And what's. What's tough is that a lot of times you don't say anything or, you know, it's just. Yeah. So I totally. I guess that's what makes you appreciate those little gestures even more, because it is really hard. And I know, like, when I was grieving the hardest, it was. It felt like two things at the same time. I wanted to be alone. I didn't want to see anybody, and I wanted to be wrapped around, surrounded by everybody that I cared about and be given so much love. And it was this very weird, like. And so I feel like you. You almost have an energy, too, with that, like, where maybe you're giving that off and you don't even know that. And so, like, people don't even know what to do with that energy. Like, so oftentimes they were just, like, Gifts that would just show up at the door, and I'd have a text, and it was just, like, a bag of your favorite things from the store, like a candle, some bath salts, some chocolate, some tea, and, like, a handwritten card. And then another couple sent us, like, it was like, one of those delivery dinners. That was really sweet. And what else? Someone gave me a book. Another person gave me, like, a little, like, worry stone. And also, like, people share their grief stories, and I think that is important, and it's. It's just another way to remember that you're not alone. And, yeah, it's really hard to navigate as the friend, but also as the person that's grieving. Like, it's such a delicate thing, but it really. You really can be impactful just by even just dropping off something, you know.

A (47:20)

I love that, and I love those examples. Like, you know, I've often talked about one of the most impactful things that someone did for me was, like, just showed up at my door with, like, a Starbucks and was like, I don't know if it's a good time or not, but here's a coffee, and let's just go get some fresh air. And we. We didn't go on a long walk. And I was just like, basically, I just needed someone to sort of tell me what to do, you know, and it was perfect. But I love that idea of, you know, dropping off, like, tea or, like, a fuzzy blanket or a book or any of those things. It was interesting, actually. Some were books on, like, loss or, like, you know, signs from people and all of that, and I love that. But some were just like, hey, here is a really, like, cheesy, you know, brain candy, like, beet read. And both of those were, like, equally important to me, right? Because sometimes I just was like, I just want to read some nonsense and not think about it. Other times I was like, oh, this is so cool. Like, you know, maybe I've known Jake in many lives, and that was kind of cool to think about, too. So it's the whole spectrum, right, of, like, just showing people in even the smallest, simplest of ways that you are there. Because I think that that is ultimately what we need, right? And what everybody needs. And again, it goes back to using that word griever. Like, we're all going through this. So, like, sometimes it's as simple as thinking of, like, what would have made a difference for me and then doing that for somebody. And even if it's not, like, hitting it right on the head, it's that gesture. It's that?

B (48:55)

Yeah, yeah, it. Probably from the person, it doesn't feel like much, but it. It really. It really makes a difference. You really do. And I know, like, at that time, I just. I always, like, I felt so gross and my house was messy, and, like, the last thing I wanted to do was try to, like, make an effort to look, you know, and tidy up. And it's just like, everything feels like. It takes, like, so much energy when you're grieving, like, really hard or we just had the loss and, like. So, yeah, just to, like, show up and just leave it there or whatever, just, you know, that takes a lot of the pressure off of you. And I appreciated that, too.

A (49:36)

No, I think those are great, great suggestions. And I want to say, Carrie, I've enjoyed this conversation so much, and I love, like, you know, I love looking at you and then this background. Because what I've been thinking about this entire time, though, is the story you shared about, of when you learned of your mom's passing and you were on the ski slope. And I, you know, I. I just am looking at that winter picture and I'm just thinking about that in my own weird way, and it just feels really beautiful. And it makes me feel like, I don't know, like your mom is part of this conversation. And I love that. Right. Because human relationships are so complicated and they're not all picture perfect. Right. But, like, it is just. They're just important and they are part of who we are. And I just am so grateful for you for sharing your story with me and with the guests. And I love that background because for me, it just made it feel even. Even better. So thank you for being here.

B (50:33)

Thank God, of course. Thank you for letting me tell my story and having more of a connection about grief through this, through a podcast.

A (50:42)

Thank you and good luck on your backyard run. I will be rooting for you.

B (50:47)

Oh, thank you so much.

A (50:49)

For sure. Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it to see you next time on A Place of Yes.