← A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast 
Loading summary
Transcript91 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Heather Straughter and this is a place of. Yes. In each episode we have honest conversations about grief. The messy parts, the unexpected moments, and the ways we begin to heal through heartfelt stories and expert advice. My hope is to offer you comfort, connection and a reminder that you don't have to navigate this alone. Today I'm joined by Marie Cruz, a mother who knows the weight of unimaginable loss. After losing both her mother and her son within two years, Marie found herself searching for a way forward and eventually a way to help others do the same. In this conversation, she shares how journaling became her lifeline, how intuition and connection to her son continue to guide her, and how she now supports other grieving mothers through retreats and community. It's raw, reflective and full of hard won insight and I'm grateful to share it with you. So I am sitting here with Marie Cruz today and I'm really excited for this conversation. Like so many of my guests, she is a fellow griever. She lost her son and her mother within two years, both unexpectedly. But she has taken that heaviness and that loss and has really provided such a service for other people in the same, I don't know, in the same boat. Right. Like you have. She runs grief retreats and is a retreat leader and has, has offered like workshops and things about journaling and kind of how to navigate through this heaviness. So welcome to the show, Marie. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.
- [01:30]
B
Well, thanks for having me on. It's always hard to touch it, right, to go there, but worth it if it's. It's always in service, I think, to others, but for me personally, I just heal every time I tell my story, every time someone validates the enormity of it. You know, I wish I didn't have a reason and you didn't have a reason, but I'm otherwise some other way.
- [01:57]
A
Right. I always, I do always say that with a lot of my guests. So we've been starting this season with a lighter question and I'm going to answer it before just to give you a chance to think about it because I feel like sometimes it trips people up. But the question is, you know this. The show is called A place of yes. And is there anything that you recently feel like you have said yes to that has that has made your life a little better? I will start with something pretty easy. I have a really good friend of mine who, one of those friends who even though we live close by, we do not see each other as much as we could. We should. Any of those things. So she had texted me last week, and she was like, no, do you have time for a quick lunch? And I had looked at my schedule for this week, and it's kind of filled up. And I was so close to being like, I can't. But I was like, you know what? I absolutely can. I can certainly, like, I'm not that busy. I can carve out an hour. And I have lunch with her on Friday, and I'm so looking forward to it. So that was like my little yes that I'm happy about.
- [02:58]
B
Well, that one will be pretty easy. I tend to do one and two things in my day, which is plan and work and try to do all of the things to push this message out and connect with people. Or I procrastinate because I get overwhelmed and I don't do anything. So I would say for me, Monday, my. My husband, we were over at our beach home all weekend and with guests and stuff, and he went home on Sunday and Monday morning, instead of just grinding it out, I went for a swim and I snorkeled. And I. I just don't allow myself to do those things out of order very often. I might waste my time, but I don't plan my play, if you will, enough. And. And I was just like, it'll keep, you know, like, it'll keep. Life is. Goes by fast.
- [04:03]
A
I love that example because that is an important one for so many. Like, for our list listeners, for guests on the show, and really for everybody. Right? Like, we. And it's a little bit similar with the lunch. Like, I, you know, we think we allow ourselves sometimes to be like, so, oh, we have to do this. We're busy. We have to get this done. We have to get this done. And taking an hour here or there or 15 minutes or two hours or a whole day, we'll get it done. It's good. I think that's a perfect example. I would love if we could start. If you could share the story of your. Your losses, really, your. Your multiple losses. Um, and we could talk a little bit about, you know, kind of compound grief, which is when you have these losses pretty back to back or close in time, and you sort of, you know, you could argue that you never really heal from a big loss, but you do. But then all of a sudden you're hit with something else and it just feels really big. So if you wouldn't mind kind of sharing your story a little.
- [04:59]
B
Oh, okay, let's see. See, it's.
- [05:03]
A
So we could start with your son if.
- [05:05]
B
Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll actually start with my mom. Okay. Just because of the sequence of how things happen. So when I lost my mom, I was 42, she was 64. She was really young, not in great health, but also not dying. So. And it was sudden, and we found her. So that was very complex loss, not to minimize any loss, but for me, it was complex. It was very unexpected. Also traumatizing the way we found out. And then. And it was my first major loss. Like, I had lost a grandfather when I was 21 or 22 maybe. But, you know, he was also 64. And 64 was old in my mind then and is not now.
- [06:04]
A
No, of course not.
- [06:05]
B
But it was my grandpa. And it was sad and it rocked my world because, you know, and I remember tasting grief, but I was a young, young mother and I was pregnant and didn't know all. All the things, so I lost my mom. It was. It was so many. First, you know, like, who. Who do you even call when you come upon this? Like, those kind of things. And then there were. I have three siblings. And we all rally. We're close. And so then it was the first of all of those things. All of all of it. Like, every decision that comes after that. So my mom's loss. We love my mom. Wonderful lady. We were very, very different. So it wasn't. A lot of. Some women are super close to their parents, you know, to their mothers. And we were and we weren't. We had a lot of fun together, but we also weren't like besties. I didn't call her for things. So it was an odd kind of loss. And it was also that, like, shocking to the level of my grief.
- [07:12]
A
So, like, you were surprised by how much you grieved? Is that what you mean? Or like.
- [07:18]
B
Yes. Yeah, I think, because. And what I've learned, and it's so shocking because sometimes I can literally just talk about this stuff and nothing comes. And sometimes it's just so heavy. I think with my mom was the first taste of the impermanence of humanity, of life. Like, in a moment it could change and in how grief is not linear. You know, I'd have a good moment and then our day, and then. Then the next day, and I kept getting confused, like, broadsided. Like, I thought it was okay. I thought it was better and.
- [08:06]
A
And then.
- [08:08]
B
Yeah. So that it just. That was so. I don't want to say peculiar, but I think it was just so much confusion at the process of death and grieving.
- [08:20]
A
You raised such an interesting point that we have talked about in sort of different ways and we've skirted around with some other guests because it really. Your first loss, whoever that person is, that person that's close. It is all of those things. And I think I like the way you said like sort of the impermanence of humanity because it makes you realize so firsthand that there is an end and that end is forever. And I think that it seems like such a basic concept, but it's not because it's hard. Our minds aren't wired to sort of.
- [08:59]
B
Our minds are not wired to process it. Yeah. I also would add that it's forever and it's not predictable. So even if it were, it's still. You know, I've. I've. I've worked with women who lost their parent through the process of dying from sickness. Right. Even when it's accept expected, it's still your. Your. You think you know what you're gonna feel when it comes and you don't because you can't. Because our human brain can't process the spiritual world. It's just kind of how it is. And so. So none of it's predictable. And I think that part is the heart was the hardest part for me. You know, I didn't talk to my mom every day, but she was an integral part of our lives. You know, I mean, we were a close family and. And then. And then it's like. And she's just not here. Like, it. It. That. That took me a long time to. I almost had to keep telling myself, no, she's no.
- [10:13]
A
Like, I know exactly what you mean. And I think even when you sometimes think that, okay, like I have understood this, something else can happen. And you never know what that is gonna be, but that can trigger you. Like. Like I know. And we may have talked about this before when we talk. Son passed. It was close to 15 years ago, but there was this time when he would have. The year he would have been a senior in high school. Like that year when I saw people who had kids that age and they were doing like their senior pictures on like Facebook and social media, it smacked me in the face in a way I did not see coming at all. Like, I felt like I was right back to ground zero. And it took me a while to be like, wait, where's this coming from? And then I was like, oh, like, he never got a senior picture. Of course not. He passed away when he was 4. But my brain was still like triggered by all these other kids his exact same age, having senior pictures.
- [11:15]
B
Well, because you had mapped out in your mind how it was going to be.
- [11:18]
A
It's like you just so.
- [11:19]
B
To your point.
- [11:20]
A
Like, it's like you do. You can get smacked in the face with it, even when you think you have been.
- [11:26]
B
Yeah.
- [11:27]
A
Working through it.
- [11:28]
B
My mom's loss showed up in ways that were very intertwined with my children's lives. So, you know, my daughter was a performer, and my mother was just such a supporter of her and so excited about her. And that is something I would have called my mom about to talk about my daughter's success or her performance or her. You know, and so it's those missing pieces that I couldn't call her or I'd want to call her, and. And then that. I think that's when I first started getting a mental picture of a presence beyond the earth. Like. Like, I'd never really thought about. Like, I didn't need to process it. It hadn't affected me this way. So then it would be like, oh, well, mom's mom's there. She saw. She's with us, whatever. And, you know, whatever people believe. I also talked to a medium at some point and got some of those things confirmed. But, yeah, it was also my first brush with trying to wrap my brain around the other existence, you know, like, where are they? And so the loss on my mom really, I think, in many ways paved the path for the way I was able to process losing Quentin, which was 20 months later. And I had been the executor of my mother's estate. So I had been like, whiplash. You know, I was the one making the phone calls telling the credit card companies she was dead.
- [13:23]
A
I mean, those are hard calls, too. Like, those are the things sometimes I think people don't think about, like, when you have to, like. Or, like, I would get, like, insurance bills or, like, claims or stuff after Jake died. And I was like, he's been dead.
- [13:35]
B
Like, what?
- [13:36]
A
Why are you making me do this?
- [13:37]
B
And then the mishandling of it in. In the general public, the. The. The callousness, if you will, you know, and. And I know it's not personal to them, but if you transfer me to the bereavement department at the credit card company, pretty sure they shouldn't ask you if your mother's with you. I mean, some really harsh scenarios.
- [13:58]
A
No, it's awful. Like, you. You kind of laugh at it because you sort of have to, but it's absurd.
- [14:03]
B
Absurd. I lean to the anger side. When I'm in the middle of it. So I was like, are you tell. Is this the breathing department or not? But anyhow, so. So just 20 months later, out of on any given I. It was a Saturday, but I used my mom. We found her on a Thursday. So you. I used to my mom. My thing was on any given Thursday, like your life could be upended. And so this was a Saturday and. And Lee came home from a party and he was staying with us at the time. He was 22. And Lee once again found someone not with us anymore. Right. And so I remember even that night, my brain trying to make sense of how could this have happened to me. Again, not even about him, just in general who finds people dead? Like, like, it's almost like my logical brain was kicking in because my emotional self couldn't handle it. And so it was wild to look back and see what I was thinking in those very moments. And so yeah, we went. My husband and I went to a party. We came in really late, maybe, I don't know, two o' clock in the morning and maybe it was somewhere in the early morning hours. And yeah, and I found him. And I don't really go into the details of manners, but it was obvious what was happening. It wasn't obvious what had happened, but it was obvious that he was gone. And then the nightmare ensued right in front of me. So all of those details are etched in deep into the brain forever. So back to back, I have these PTSD situations and I, from the loss of my mom, had still been waking up at night looking to see if my husband was breathing, Checking the dogs. And I was doing this probably for a whole year without consciously being aware that I was doing it. It was like out of a dead sleep. So it just was, yes, compiled like right on top. Now I will tell you that I felt like in my life, in my entrepreneurial position that I had at the time had gotten back on track. You know, I had suffered from, from, with anxiety most of my life, just hyper vigilant, just, you know, But I had settled in, had had a taste of depression, not much and more in the withdrawal sense. Like I didn't want to talk to people. I know a lot of people. I always thought depression was like crying and stuff because I never really knew what it was like. So I had come out of that. I had used some natural remedies and come out of that and was kind of at the top of my game again in the company I was in. As a matter of fact, the weekend before I was out of town at a conference in Sundance that I had earned. And this was like, I was almost at the high, you know, I was in this high of my career. And then this happened and it was unexpected. He had had a really tough life. He just. Maladjustment, he just didn't fit in. He was a little on the spectrum. He just had a hard life. Super bright kid, artistic, you know, all the things. And so I'd struggled with him, for him, his whole life. And I always say I was really afraid for him. I was afraid that he would die, but I wasn't afraid that he would take his life, like, ever. I. It never crossed my mind that he might actually do something like that. Like, that wasn't a risk that was presenting itself in our world. A lot of other risk taking behaviors and things like that, like, but not that. So it was almost also an instant not blame. It was an instant doubt about myself and my ability to read a situation. Like, well, if I was wrong about him, then what else am I wrong about? Like, can I really trust my husband? Is my daughter suicidal? Like, I think it's so.
- [19:18]
A
I actually just really. Love is the wrong word, but I often use the word like guilt. And that's never quite the right word. But that doubt, that is the perfect word, I think, because after some of these losses, you know, whether it was through someone taking their own life or just medical illness or anything, there is that. Like, because I had that with Jake. Like, he died on my wall.
- [19:48]
B
Did I miss something?
- [19:48]
A
Like, did I miss something? Should I have? Like, I was feeding him like it was a normal night. Was that not the thing to do it. And doubt is the word, and that is the thing that even the years later, like when you go dark, can. Can feed in because. And like you said, like, it kind of transferred to your sis, your. Your daughter, to your husband. Like, that doubt is like, what if. Am I missing something now? Am I missing something with these other people that I love? And that is. I mean, I think that is the perfect word to use. And it's an emotion that a lot of people, I think, feel, but they can't quite find the word. Cause blame isn't always the word because, you know, not to blame yourself because you're not supposed to blame yourself, but it's not quite the right word. Guilt was never right for me either. But there is. There's just that doubt and it can be pervasive. Like, it can really kind of creep into every part of your life.
- [20:43]
B
What I had always prided myself. I believe on my intuition. And to doubt that part of me was almost like. I don't know. It. It felt like not that I had abandoned myself, but like not only had I lost my son, but I, I couldn't trust what I. Who I thought I was in this deepest, most intimate part of me. My intuition. It was like that came into question and so that, that level of doubting that part of me was, was brutal. It was scary and it was, it kind of shook my whole foundation, you know, like it just. I, I don't. It's not something I could put into words. I didn't have guilt because I know like, I know like I know that at the bottom of my soul I gave him everything I had to give. Like I used to say I could have gave him an eyeball or a kidney but he probably couldn't have got much more out of me. But to miss it, that was so profoundly impactful to me. And it, and it, I think it just scared the crap out of me.
- [22:12]
A
Like it scares the crap out of like every and everybody else that is living too. Because. Right. That, that is, it's such, it's. It. It seeps into everything. How did you. Or do you. Cause I always sort of feel like it's always a work in process. Right. And you alluded to it earlier. Like sometimes you can talk about it super dry eyed and other times we talk about these things and it's more emotional than others and it's always hard to know where you're going to be at any given day. You know, I just feel like there's that piece. But how did you. Or how do you work through those feelings? Like how did you. You know, you had mentioned sort of like that maybe the loss of your mom sort of prepared you a little bit for what was coming in these like non line waves of grief. But how, how did you work through this?
- [23:04]
B
So with the loss of my mom, I engaged with my therapist a lot. I had been working with the same therapist since my twenties and my whole other rest of my story is just amazingly something. But I hadn't been, you know, had been. I was, I was in the mindset coaching. I was working with not a national team. I was coaching all these people. I had personal clients and that kind of thing. So I, I was, I was kind of. By coaching other people, coaching myself along the way and then, but when I lost my mom, it was this whole new paradigm that I had never even thought of in my life. So I used my therapist a lot to Just process. I'm a talker. I'm an oral processor, and so I needed that. So for a long time in my life, things were pretty stable. So I was able to kind of coach my own self. I also have been a journaler for years, and my journal is my meditation. It. It was. It's my self therapy. It's why I built a whole program around it so that I could share it and help other people utilize it as a free tool. Like, once you understand how to use what I do, you get to give yourself what you need all the time. And so. But I. And I had that, and I didn't have. I had that. So for my. With my mother, I wasn't as consistently journaling, but I went. I turned back to my therapist, you know, not even that much. Maybe every couple weeks or something, whenever I was like, super stuck, I would have a session. But when I lost Quentin, I had somewhere in the timeframe of losing my mom to losing him, I had reawakened my. This super daily habit of journaling and I think had begun the process of using it for self healing versus just getting everything out, right? So there's getting everything out, journaling. You're just pushing all your emotions out, which is great. I used. I taught my kids all their lives. Up and out, or it's toxic in your body. Just get it out. I had begun through those years to. To. To turn towards taking the therapy talk and the things that he had taught me and I had learned along the way and applying them on the regular in my journals. So when I lost Quentin, I didn't write for a very long time.
- [25:48]
A
Okay.
- [25:49]
B
Even though I had a very strong daily habit going, because I just couldn't. I couldn't. You know, I was living it. You can't not face it. You're in it. But I couldn't look at it. And I knew I. I heard one time years and years ago that you'll find yourself on the pages of the paper. And I just didn't want to look. Yeah, I was terrified.
- [26:12]
A
I think that's really interesting, but I think that is probably common, right? Because if you're. Especially if you're. If it's part of your daily routine and it's something you're doing that you know is healing for you. And sometimes. And I don't know if this is entirely accurate for you, but it's like sometimes you don't want to be healed. Like you don't want to go through it sometimes, like you just don't want to See what's, what's happening.
- [26:36]
B
I. I think for me, I believe that's the case with a lot of people. I think as a society, we're taught or we get the message some kind of way that if you, if you heal, if you release your grief or you get okay, that you leave them behind. I think that's a subliminal type message that we carry. And that may be just my experience, but for me, why I didn't want to go into the journal now, mind you, I was talking about it, I was processing it. He was talking to me, which was a whole different shift for me. Like I didn't believe in those things and I felt like I can't tell anyone. So I was also having these spiritual experiences with him that I felt like I couldn't say because they might like me up, they might want to put me on medication. Like maybe I'm really crazy. I mean, you know, the back to the human mind not being able to process eternity, like death, like someone literally physically not being here. When it's your child, as you know, it's like 85 million times worse because. Because it just is. And so I think for me, I. I was processing him communicating with me, feeling crazy also, like trying to make. Forge my own path. I've been a kind of a. I was a. I'm a rule breaker, you know, I've never really done things the way the world says that we should do them. A whole novel and to read it and hear myself and watch my life, I'm like, oh, that was cute. But I think I was trying to figure out how. How will I do this? What do I need? And people were like, oh, there's Facebook groups, there's this, there's that. And I was like, I'm a healer. I'm a. I'm a. An empathic person. I knew very clearly I couldn't, I wasn't. I couldn't go put myself in, in the pain with other people. I also didn't want to make my entire existence this pain, even though it was without. You know, there's only so much you can do to unwrap yourself from it. You, I've learned since, in fact, you can't very much. So for me, I think it wasn't so much that I didn't want to heal. I think it. I know that I didn't go back to my journal because I didn't want to look. I didn't want to face it. I didn't want to. I think there was a part of Me that thought maybe I would find that. That I really did know, that I really did have a feeling. Because journaling, when you allow what's inside of you and your mind and your soul to come out, which is the gift of journaling, it reveals some stuff. And I. I think there was a part of me that was scared that I would go and look and I would see. Oh, you did see some things, but you didn't.
- [29:57]
A
There's. There was something there, or.
- [29:59]
B
I think I was afraid of that, but mostly I was just afraid of. There was a huge part of me for a very. It was probably only a couple of weeks that I held off maybe three. But there was a part of me that was like, if I go and look at this and I just allow this to come, that I'm. I'm never going to get up. Like, I'm never gonna stop crying. Like, if I let. If I.
- [30:28]
A
Literally.
- [30:29]
B
Because I'm really good at survival. So I cried, I talked, I let some things show. But I was. I really, really good at. At. At just grinning and bearing it and moving through life. I'm good at it. My childhood primes me to shut it down. So I was pretty sure that if I went and I sat with it, that I would. I was scared that I would find something I didn't want to see and that I would not get up. That. That if I started crying, I would never quit.
- [31:06]
A
I think that that. And I think that that can look very different for people. But that feeling that you just described, right, the. Like, if I. Because I toyed with that a lot, and I. I sometimes still do, and I've talked about it in a few episodes where sometimes I have to let myself. Right like now, all these years later, I still have these moments, and I sort of call it, like, when I go dark, right? And when I. And I let myself. Like. I almost let myself do it with, like, a timeline. I mean, it sounds kind of weird, but I'm like, you know what? I need to get this out, and I need to feel this loss, and I need to not talk to anybody. I need to be in a dark room, and I need to feel really, really freaking sorry for myself because my kid's dead and I can't keep just having the bright light on anymore or talking about the healing or talking about the good stuff. Not the good stuff, but the, like, positivity. Sometimes I have to be in the dark, but. But I give myself a day or two days or something, and then I'm like, I have to see the light again, I have to come out because I do think people who have had loss, I would say so many people I've talked to, there's that line of like. And some people who just. Who I have talked to recently, who are currently in it, who are just like, I don't even want to be better. I don't want to get out of this. I want to. I just want to cry and miss my person. And I think those are really strong, strong feelings. And you had talked. You had written in the. Sort of the survey about how you needed to process your grief or you'd get stuck in it. And I think that's this piece we're talking about. Right. Like, you can just get stuck in it. How did you move through this phase? Like, how did you move through that period?
- [32:52]
B
So I had some. Some situations at play that I think propelled me. But I will tell you, by nature, I'm just. I'm just a survivor. And early on, I would say if somebody said, how. How did you move through it? I decided again and again and again and again, over and over. Yep. And I. I just kept deciding. And one of the things that I decided early on was that I wouldn't take this on. Like, I wouldn't take blame for this because of just who I was with this child. I would. I knew what I did for him, so I wouldn't take that. People were really worried about that because it's common, especially with suicide. So I decided, one, I wouldn't take that on. So if the thoughts came, I would be like, I would. You know, comedy is a relief for me in really heavy stuff. So I would be like, nope, you would have gave him an eyeball or a kidney or something. But you gave him everything you had. So that was one thing. But the other big decision that I made was that if I was going to be here, and I've never had a thought like that in my life, including losing him or after. It just isn't in my makeup. I. I don't know why. If I was going to be here, then I was going to figure out how to not be miserable. And if he wasn't here anyway, that me holding on to him wasn't gonna do me any good. Like, if I couldn't have him, then me staying miserable wasn't gonna make me have him anymore. It was. It didn't make logical sense to me. So. So why would I not fight my way back?
- [34:51]
A
It's a very articulate way of saying, I think what a lot of us do, right? Like, it's like when I talk about going dark, like I will let myself shut down when I need to, but there's. I decide then that, you know, on Friday morning or like whatever that is, it's time to get up and restart. Like, you know, you kind of have to give yourself these timelines and make these decisions of how you are going to do it. And you raise this really important point that I think you and I sort of have bonded over when we talked before, but that I just really think is really important. And then I want to circle back with like kind of your communication and the spiritual piece of this. Because the fact of the matter is if we are going to remain here, which we are, then being miserable is not bringing our person back. It is not changing the course of anything. It's just basically having us be miserable through life.
- [35:43]
B
Not only that.
- [35:44]
A
Yeah.
- [35:44]
B
But now the new connection with them is misery is based in miserable.
- [35:48]
A
It's based in. And I used to always, like early on I'd be like, I don't want him. And I didn't know what I thought about spirituality or connection or post death or any of those things until Jake died because I just never really thought about it in a very in depth way. But I remember very vividly being like, I don't want him, I always say, looking down, but from wherever, like wherever his being is, I do not want him seeing me this miserable because I don't want him to feel bad about it. Like, I don't want, you know, it's kind of like this weird way. But I was like, I don't want him to feel like he did anything wrong. He got sick, he had seizures, he died. I don't want him to hold that, that I'm a mess, you know, I mean, so if in the beginning, like it's this sort of, whether it's still like the mother child relationship, that you're still trying to take care of them in the afterworld or in the spirituality. But you mentioned communication with Quentin. Can you talk to me about like what that was like? And I totally get it. Like where you're like, I didn't want to talk to people about it because they'll think I'm nuts. But I'd love to hear more about what it was like, especially in the beginning.
- [36:54]
B
Sure. Well, to your point, I could see you wanting to protect your 4 year old from your pain. Yeah, Yeah. I had a little different experience. My son was 22 and when he was 5, he was 22. Like he was an old soul. And I had a full experiential relationship with him. Right. So it was different. Very vastly different. Right. You were quite literally still in the mother of a little child role. Yeah. And I could see where if I had lost my child that young, I'm, I may have rolled into that. Still protecting them from wherever they are at. Right. Well, for me it wasn't like that in that piece I also mentioned earlier, and I'm, I'm just pretty radically self aware when I'm hurting, I lean toward anger. It is my default. It's what kept, kept me safe all my life. So when I'm in a crunch, a hard crunch, I lean in the anger direction. So part of me was just kind of pissed off at him. Like, I gave you so much and then you copped out on us. I also as a mother could see why. Like, like if your kid is cancer and you finally say one day it's okay, you can go, okay. Like, I wouldn't have told him that I didn't feel like that. But in the aftermath I allowed myself to feel that. Okay, like it's okay. It was his journey and his path and it's okay. Like, but I was a flipped between the two. So when my friend said, wouldn't it, wouldn't it, don't you think he'd want you to be happy? And I was like, I don't give up. He chose to leave here. People said, and I'm just pretty raw. So people were like, well, will you make like put him a bench in a park or something? Like, no, he should have stayed here and got his own bench. No, I'm not making him a bench. Like, that's just how I am. And that kid knew to the bottom of his soul how much I cared about him. So he's probably laughing at that. Yeah. There's my mom, like, you know, saying, no, she ain't giving me a bench. You know, like in. And I believe that, that I bring maybe a little more brevity to this scenario than the average person or I talk about it more. Yeah. And make it more.
- [39:46]
A
You know what I, I, I think from that is I think.
- [39:52]
B
And I.
- [39:52]
A
Don'T know how to, I want to say this correctly and I don't know that I will, but I think that that honesty, that super raw honesty, those thoughts that we have and that like you, you alluded to earlier, that we don't always share. Right. Because you don't want people to think. But I think that is, that is super wrong. That's super honest and that's kind of why I chuckled. And then you said the piece of. Like, you're. Quentin's probably there being like, yeah, that's my mom. Like, that's it, right? Like, and that is all. We don't answer to them, but, like, that's the relationship that matters, right?
- [40:21]
B
Like, I don't know.
- [40:23]
A
Like, it is. Like, that's what matters.
- [40:25]
B
And he sent me, like, maybe three weeks before he left us, he sent me this thing. And it's a little politically incorrect, and I won't say the whole thing, but it's something along the lines of, your mom has got your back, or, your mom's your biggest supporter in your corner. And he sent it, like, what a gift that I got it. And to this day, I don't believe he was planning anything. He was just expressing to me, which he didn't. Off it. But he. He was a poet and a writer, and he wrote me some things, and I have those things, which are nice over the years. You know, I just posted one on Facebook for my birthday because he had written me a poem when he was, like, 13 or whatever. And to be clear, I don't want to misrepresent my relationship with him. We were at each other's throat a lot because I was trying to get him through life, and he did not fit. And I needed to get this mom and thing right. So I had to make. Make him be okay and fit and it. And. And h. If I knew what I knew now, I wouldn't give two. Nothing. I wouldn't. I'm trying to edit. I wouldn't care at all about the rules of this society. You know, I would literally have encouraged him to go live at the Renaissance Fair.
- [41:47]
A
No, like, be your own person. Live your own life. Like, no, it's. Yeah, it's that whole.
- [41:51]
B
Yeah, whatever. So back to the spiritual thing. I'm sorry. We got off on that. But back to the spiritual side of it. So the very first thing. I just did a video on this. The very first thing that happened spiritually was I was. I couldn't eat or sleep for, like, three days. And so. Which was shocking to me. I think I was angry at myself. Like, I thought, you know, I'm kind of a badass. And I thought, really? Like, really? And it was just my body shutting down, and. But I was mad at myself. Like, you're really gonna crumble, like, weakly. I mean, this will tell you a little glimpse of my internal voice, especially when I'm in a crunch. Right. And so I don't Know what? They had me on some Klonopin or something. So I was a little out of it. And, you know, as you know, you're out of it anyway.
- [42:42]
A
You. Yeah.
- [42:44]
B
So I was sitting on the front porch and I was sobbing. I had told my husband I need him to just leave me alone for a little while. He's amazing. But I said, I just gotta go be by myself. So I sat on the front porch, and there was this bush with these little orange flowers. And there was this tiny. This was like the beginning of November. So tiny. Probably that big, little solid yellow butterfly. And it was flitting by this bush right in front of me. I was in a rocker, and I was, you know. You know, sobbing. Couldn't catch my breath. Full body, couldn't believe this was my life. Yep. And. And I said, q, why did you have to go? Like, my whole brain was like. Like, why? Like, why? And he said, this is the first thing that happened. And I thought, oh, I can't tell anybody. They're really gonna think I'm nuts. I know. He said to me, but, look, Mom, I'm free. And if you knew him, you would understand that, because he spent an entire lifetime feeling caged in a system, in a society that wanted him to be something he wasn't. And I remember thinking, like, first it's like, oh, my God, I'm going crazy. Can't tell anybody. I'd never had a rush with communication anywhere outside of this realm. And. But then I thought that had to be him. Because if I was making it up, that is not what I would have said.
- [44:28]
A
You'd say something different? Yeah.
- [44:31]
B
Yes, I would. I would have said, mom, I'm sorry, Mom, I didn't mean to. Mom, I don't know. But it wouldn't have been that. And I was not in a capacity to make something up, to sit there and think, what would he say if I asked this question?
- [44:47]
A
You're not creating a.
- [44:48]
B
It's not mentally or emotionally capable for me to have created that in that moment. Now, since then, maybe we could probably apply that some other places that happen, but not that first time. And. And then after that, it was weird things. It was. I. It wasn't that I could hear his voice. It was like he was speaking to me. But it wasn't like I heard his voice. I mean, he was 22. He was a little man, you know, so it wasn't that. It was. It was. It was. It was commentary. It was. One day, I was. I was driving, and I saw someone, and you know, your mind plays these tricks on you. And I saw someone. He used to walk all over the place, and he lived not far from me, so he would just come walk into the house. I was driving and I saw someone, and my brain thought it might could be him. Like, because your brain does that?
- [45:40]
A
Yeah, a hundred percent it does.
- [45:41]
B
And I start sobbing. Like, I'm driving and I'm start, like, bawling, like, I can't. I don't know. If I pulled over, maybe I got to a stop sign. I can't remember. But I couldn't catch my breath. And I could hear him saying, mom, for real, I'm fine. Mom, for real. Are you gonna do this forever? Like, what are you doing? Like, I literally feel like I heard him fussing at me almost, like. And that wasn't. So somebody could hear this and go, well, her natural internal voice would be fussing at her. It was. It wasn't me.
- [46:19]
A
I believe. I believe in these. I do.
- [46:21]
B
I. Yeah. And there were other very, very significant things that happened that. That, I mean, all kind of things. We had lived in our house for eight years and nothing electrical had happened in this house. And those things many. And I could tell you 10 stories, starting with my daughter saying stuff and me thinking she's lost her mind. Like, that's bullshit. He's not doing that. That's not even possible. And then things were happening with me, and I was like, okay, yeah, so. So, I mean, whatever. People believe, whatever. I would say that when you're. When you. When your child crosses over, transitions, whatever we're calling it today, you get kind of desperate to. To understand, not for signs. I don't know that I needed the signs. I probably could have been fine without that. I got desperate to understand. I remember when my mom passed, I didn't really give it much thought. Where did she go? How is she okay? Did she make it to heaven? I didn't think about those things. But when I. When he passed, I was desperate to know that he was okay. Like, where. And. And also just to have a framework of what happens when you die. It is.
- [47:45]
A
I think that that's a really good delineation. Right? Like, because I do. I. And desperate is the right word. Like, when Jake died, I. Like, I had never been what someone that I would call, like, overly religious or even spiritual at that point in my life. But when he was gone and I started, like, I had some pretty early on, like, feelings that he was transitioning, that he was. Like, when he was still in the house, when he wasn't, like, just things that happened that I believed to be him. Whether or I needed to believe, I don't. You know, I kind of believe it. But I was very. Like, I went back to church for a little while. I, like, I dabbled with all sorts of things because I needed to find something. Like, I needed an answer in a way that I had never thought I needed before of, where. Where is he? Like, how. How are we continuing this? Like, where did he go? What does this mean? And. And as time has passed, I can very much say that I am so much more comfortable with it now. Like, over the years, I've just gotten comfortable with it. I'm. I'm comfortable hearing stories like that because I believe them wholeheartedly. Like, I believe that that is Quentin telling you, like, and writing you about, like, mom, I'm fine. Like, you're. I mean, I believe all of that. We've been talking about so many interesting things and stuff, and one of the things I really wanted to make sure we. We touched on was. And you just alluded to it, like, the work you do with other moms, with other grievers. Can you talk for a little bit about that, about some of your retreats and just the work you do? Because I do love other people and people who take these losses and help others with it because it's so powerful.
- [49:25]
B
Yeah. I don't. I'll say again, I'm just wired that way. And I don't know if you've looked into human design or anything, but I've gotten some confirmation that's kind of what I'm here for. So it made a lot of sense after the fact. It's not like I knew that and then did this. I just followed what was healing. And so about a year and a half or so after I lost. Well, let me back up and start with about seven months after I lost Quentin. I decided to write the novel that I had been wanting to write for a long time. And one of the reasons I didn't write it was because my mother was still alive, and I didn't want to hurt her with the truth. And I can. I'm only kind of capable of telling the truth. So I didn't. I didn't want to say the things that shaped me, the hard things in my life, the things that she wasn't able to give me. I didn't want that to harm her. But I knew I had a book in me. I don't know why, but I knew I did. And. But I wasn't ready to write it. So then she passed. And I thought, oh, I'll write the book. And then Quinn passed and then I was like, I'm writing the book. And so I hired a book coach and I wrote a fiction novel about my life. And it was probably the most profoundly healing thing I could have done for myself. And it was brutal because I was writing scenes of him and I. I was going back through our life together, I was going back through my first marriage. All the things in the book. I chose to do something non traditional, which is write it in third person and then use journal entries at the end of each chapter, which gives a person perspective because I was very. This is all kind of so interesting to look back. I feel like it was foreshadowing, but I didn't know because I was just following the next thing that I was being led to do in my creative realm. I'm super creative. And so I wrote the book. I put the journals against my book coach's advice. I put the jerks in anyway, which, by the way, have been one of the main resonating pieces of the book with people. They love that book part of it. But in there I, I put all these journal entries, whatever. And then somewhere in the writing of the book, I was running a workshop, a retreat thing for some of the ladies on my team. And it was like I was running retreat. So I started running retreats 18 months after I lost Quinton. And I was trying to teach journaling as a self healing process, but it wasn't a process, it was just journaling. I. I didn't even understand that I was doing a process. I didn't know. And so, but it wasn't sticking. Like, it wasn't. They, they were, they were liking it on scene, but that they weren't taking it with them. So then I had this retreat and I had this something to teach them a way that they could get it so that they would understand the enormity of the self healing process of journaling if you flesh it all the way out. I didn't even know, by the way, at this moment that there was such a thing. Like, I didn't, it was like I didn't know, but I knew when something was coming through me.
- [52:54]
A
Like you knew there was more, but you didn't quite have the words for it yet or the name.
- [52:59]
B
I just kept thinking, if I had to say, like, I kept thinking, how do I get them to get it? Like, how do I. It was almost like a frustration. But I now believe that the process was just ready to come through me. Just like any other artist, work, a painter or whatever, this, this thing was supposed to come through me. And I, I call it channeling. And I don't think it's woo woo anymore because I think we're all channeling on some level.
- [53:27]
A
I agree, I agree.
- [53:28]
B
Artist for sure. And you, you'll hear an artist say, like, I don't even know how. I don't know how that happened. It just came out. Right. Okay. So on scene, I make up this four step process. I did not stand there and say, let me make up a four step process. All I was like a kid, like, like I just want him to get it. And I said, okay, we're going to do this. All right, next step, we're going to do this. Let's try this. Okay, next step, we're going to do this. Okay, now I want you to imagine this. Da da, da, da da. We get to that and at the end of it I went.
- [54:01]
A
I think it works.
- [54:02]
B
That's a four step process. I, I literally just pulled that out of my butt, like, you know, like, and, and it probably took a while to resonate what I had done. And then I named it and all that. So I don't know when that was. Maybe in 2020. Maybe it was probably three years in 2020. Ish. Yeah. Because I think we were on lockdown and we went to a private place to have this sort of retreat because we weren't really supposed to anyway. So the journaling became a thing. And then I had a friend asked me to come and run a retreat for her for some people on her team and to bring my writing program to, to teach it. And because I had talked about it online and so then it made me move forward and record an online course so that all the ladies coming to the retreat could watch it ahead of time. And now I don't have to teach it for three hours. They could watch it and then we could do the work.
- [55:04]
A
We could do, we could do the work together.
- [55:07]
B
And so it just has snowballed from that. So every retreat after that, I've done that. I've shared. You know, when you come to a retreat, you get the whole package, the whole online journaling package. And, and so I, I started, I was already running some retreats, but I've just multiplied that. And until the last few retreats, I would have mothers come who had also lost a child because I was connecting with people on Facebook and just on social media in general that wanted to come to the retreats. But I hadn't had a mother's only retreat. So to be clear, the other retreats are for any women dealing with anything. So we could talk about, you know, menopause, empty nesting, which I don't think we give enough credence to divorce, single mom, anything, death of anybody, like it didn't matter. It's major things that are. They're just stuck or they're just in a transition in life and they don't know. They hate their job and they don't know what they want, whatever. They're just coming for something. They're looking for something and they haven't found it through traditional methods. So they come. But. So this year I started running one, running them. In the last couple of years, I've started running ones just for moms who lost the child. And I didn't want to do that. It wasn't a path I wanted to go down. I think I was maybe subconsciously afraid of the level of grief that would be in my space and not wanting to face it. I don't know, maybe whatever. But I did, and it was unbelievable. So the novel led to the writing program that led to the. So it all to. Yeah, so I was running the retreats, writing the novel. At the same. I was already writing the novel, running the retreats, writing the novel. And then the writing program comes out of that, and then I start implementing it. And then we built a beach house just for running retreats out here on the coast of Florida on the Panhandle. And now I'm doing exclusive ones for moms who've lost a child.
- [57:25]
A
It's interesting how those of us in grief and in loss can create whole entire careers that wouldn't have come without the loss, myself included. I do writing now about grief. I have this podcast. The work I do through my nonprofit is all grief related. It's just such a different path. But where could the listeners in the audience can you share like your website, like where to find information, the name of your books, like that kind of thing? Because I think you have a lot of resources for our listeners. So I want to make sure we get that out.
- [57:58]
B
Sure. So my website is just Marie Cruz, spelled C r e w s.com and there. There's a section called Work with Me and that's where the Nautilus general writing process lives. Then there's a retreat section and that breaks out into. We have the. The mom's retreat is called Defy and the Gravity of Grief. And I'm actually going to start a podcast for that. Just for specifically for mothers, not of any type of loss, but specifically for that to tell their stories. But with the. With the cusp of the ones that are finding their way up, you know, the ones that want to and are searching for and are figuring it out. Because I want it to be cumulatively sharing, like, how did we all figure this out? What are all the ways that somebody can go through this and then still have peace and joy? And I always say allow it to coexist with great grief. So I'm sorry, Defining the gravity of grief. And then the other one is called the Relax and renew retreats. And so that's on my website. My socials are linked to my website, Facebook and all. And my email. My novel doesn't have a page yet, but if someone sent me over an email or I can give you the information. It's up on Amazon, but I have copies of it, too. And if somebody, like, say, wanted a sign copy, it's the same price, but I'll mail it to you myself now that the rushes over. I can handle that. I didn't do that at first because, I mean, I sold quite enough books, so, yeah, so I'm easy to find. You know, if you find one, you'll find the other. Facebook is. I share so much grief on Facebook and TikTok, just kind of getting going on TikTok. But I. I share a lot of my story and my process there.
- [59:58]
A
Marie, I have so enjoyed this conversation, and I think it's so important for people because. And I kind of want to close with what you just said, kind of using your own words, because when people are ready to, you know, I hate to say, like, do the work, but. But they want to come out the other end, right? Like, because that has to be the core. Like, you've got to want to. And it doesn't make it easier or it's still. It's still hard. But if you're putting together these. These groups where people can learn from each other, because that's what I've figured out. Like, I love these conversations because I always have takeaways of something that I can try to do. Think people are like, oh, I never thought of it that way. I can do that. And we just share these things for those of us who want to still have joy. And you kind of said it, right? I've said it on the show a bunch of times. Like, grief and joy, they live side by side in our lives. And it's okay, right? Like, you. You can laugh, you can be happy. You can have great times and you still exist with this sorrow. So I love talking with other people together.
- [61:00]
B
I think that the, the, the. What's the word. Key phrase that I've been saying a lot lately is you. The first thing that has to come before anything is giving yourself permission to get better and permission to have peace. Like, absolutely. If you, if we don't give ourselves permission, then it's almost always like we're doing something wrong or against our loved one or betrayal or something like that. So I just want to thank providing this space and, and, and doing this work because I, I think it's just so vastly under valued. Maybe not, maybe people are just scared of it. I don't know what it is, but it's not plentiful enough for the fact that we're all going to lose someone and none of us are getting out of here alive.
- [62:00]
A
Exactly. I mean, that is the truth. We're all in the same boat, more or less.
- [62:04]
B
And why are we talking about it more? So I really just want to thank you for all the work you've done and I want to go take a look at, at some more of it and see where I might be able to play a part in, you know, whatever it is. Share the. Your stuff at my retreats or on my site or something.
- [62:25]
A
No, for sure.
- [62:26]
B
I'm, I'm a, I'm a fan because all of us together, I think we can bring this topic to the table, as horrible as it is and make it more familiar.
- [62:36]
A
Absolutely. So thank you. Thank you for being a part of A Place of Yes, I appreciate it.
- [62:41]
B
Thank you so much, Heather.
- [62:42]
A
Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it too. See you next time on A Place of Yes.