← A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast 
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Heather Straughter, and this is a place of yes. In each episode, we have honest conversations about grief. The messy parts, the unexpected moments, and the ways we begin to heal through heartfelt stories and expert advice. My hope is to offer you comfort, connection, and a reminder that you don't have to navigate this alone. Today I'm joined by Libby Adams, a radio host in Albany, New York, who you can hear weekday mornings on Fly 92.3. In 2022, Libby lost her mom to cancer. And in this conversation, she shares what it's like to grieve a parent in your 20s, how that loss shaped her identity, and why even the smallest moments, like getting a haircut, can bring up big feelings. We talk about anticipatory grief, learning to feel joy without guilt, and the quiet ways her mom's presence still shows up. It's a conversation about love, memory, and moving forward without letting go. And I'm grateful to share it with you. So today's guest is Libby Adams, one half of the Fly morning rush on fly 92.3, which is pretty exciting for me because I grew up listening to Fly 92. So it's kind of. It's just kind of fun. She was born and raised here in the capital region of New York, and like many of our guests, she is here because of loss and grief. Her mom passed away from cancer in 2022, and we're here to talk about all the things. So welcome to the show, Libby.
- [01:22]
B
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. I am also. I always listened to point 92 growing up, too, so that was my, you know, that was my station, too. I'm so excited to be here. I love listening to your conversations, you know, on the beauty that has come out of your own loss. So I'm just so excited to be here and be chatting with you today.
- [01:44]
A
And I should mention for the audience because this was kind of. This was very cool for me. We have a mutual friend, Allie, who was on my show last season, I think, and I've known her for so long. She's such a dear friend. And she had sent me a screenshot once that you were like, hey, how can I talk to Heather Straughter from a place of.
- [02:01]
B
Yes.
- [02:01]
A
And I was like. It was like my moment where I was like, oh, that is so cool. Someone I don't know is listening to the show.
- [02:08]
B
So, yeah, it was so funny. I was kind of a distant observer a little bit, obviously, following along with your foundation and your story and Then ultimately your online presence now with the podcast and everything. Everything. And I was like, you know what I like, I'll talk to anybody about grief. Anybody who will listen to me, I will talk about it. And I just love that, you know, I found so much admiration in people who have done exactly this and found a space online or with, you know, in community to talk about their grief. It's been so helpful for me to hear other people talk grief. So I was like, how do I get my hands on?
- [02:43]
A
How can I do it?
- [02:44]
B
I'm so excited to be here.
- [02:46]
A
No, well, I'm thrilled that you're here and we'll get right into it. And you said something just there that I think is a great place to start. You talked about, you know, talking grief, and it's so funny is not really the word, but it's such a unique way to wrap your head around grief. Right? Because I think, and I'm older than you, but, like, when Jake first died, I was 35. It was 15 plus years ago, and it just. It felt so isolating and alone, and it felt like something you didn't talk about. So I think the early part of my grief journey was just, you know, Brian and I, my husband, like, we shared it like my family and friends, but it was not. It wasn't the world that it is now. And there's so much that I think is so positive about these conversations, like, not just because I'm having them, but because there is a platform for it. So I love. And I'd love to hear what it's like because. So you lost your mom three years ago, right? Three years ago in December, and you were 27 years old. I'm imagining that that was heartbreaking in and of itself. Right. Like the loss of your mom's heartbreaking. But then to lose your mom at a. At a young age, how has it been going through that? And how is talking grief? How has that helped you? You know, I. I just think of, like, the beginning of your journey, Right. Like your first three years, you're kind of. You're. You're in it, but you're also still kind of early in it.
- [04:17]
B
Oh, yes, very much.
- [04:18]
A
How has the. How has being able to talk about it, how has that helped?
- [04:22]
B
Yeah, I mean, so I'll start by saying this my whole life, and this might sound a little weird. I was afraid to lose my parents young. I am the youngest of my siblings. I have a brother and two sisters, and my parents had them when they were much younger, and then they had Me, when they were about almost 40. And, you know, in the 90s, I was like this bonus baby. And my parents were the oldest of my friends. You know, all my. My peers, their parents are so much younger than my parents. And my whole life was drilled into me over just conversations and comments that were made that my parents were old. And that is. That was so ingrained in me from such a young age. I remember even, you know, when I was young being afraid at night to go to bed because I'm like, you're going to be 60 when I'm, you know, 20. And there was all this big conversation around losing my parents young. And sure enough, you know, in my mid-20s, my mom gets sick. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, this, you know, and then before I know it, I'm looking my lifelong biggest fear in its face. And, you know, I'm watching my mom get sick. I'm watching the strongest person I know turn into this frail, sick woman. Just a version of her I never saw before. So the dynamic of the fear of losing my parents young coming to reality is something that I still almost can't believe. And I still, you know, and. And people lose parents far younger than I was. You know, I got so many amazing years with my mom. I lived with my mom during COVID I spent a lot of time at home. I had parts of my relationship with my mom that my other siblings didn't have. Just given my timeline and where I was in life, you know, but they're. The second you lose your mom at any age, you know, I don't know what the threshold is, but, you know, below a certain point, your mind immediately goes to all of the things that she won't be there for. And I think that has been the hardest thing about being so young, is you're always a motherless child, no matter what age you lose your mother at. But there is something about, you know, big milestones in your life not happening yet. You know, I hadn't gotten married yet, or I'm still not married. I haven't had kids yet. So there's all these things that you just by default think that your mom is going to be there for. And all of the sudden, the. The possibility of that being gone is earth shattering. You don't even know how to take the next step. So I think having to wrap my head around going through moments like that and crossing, you know, going through new chapters of life without my mom is definitely the hardest part of that. When it comes to talking about it, I'm A talker. I'm very comfortable in therapy. I'm very comfortable sharing my feelings. Some people could say I'm a professional talker, given my line of work, you know, but sharing my experience, talking openly about the raw, scary, untalked about details of grief, has actually been very helpful for me, whether it's in a formal setting, like I said in therapy, or with friends who I share grief in or with my family. And my family has always been very open, where we are sharers, we're talkers, we're extremely close. So I think knowing that that was the foundation of my family and how we communicate with each other, talking about grief was my only option. You know, talking through it was the only way I was going to survive.
- [07:56]
A
You touched on so many things that I want to, like, kind of circle back to at some point, but I actually wrote down as you were saying it. You know, it's fascinating to me because I spend a lot of time thinking about this. And while our stories are different, some of it is very similar. And you talked about, you know, when you had to face your biggest fear in the face, like, you know, when you had to look at it. And I think a lot of parents would say this, and certainly I, you know, like, once you become a parent, you're like, oh, my God, what would. Like, you know, all the cliches are kind of true. Like, I've never known love this big. You never know that you could. And then what if something happens? And. And I never want to say that those fears are unfounded. You know what I mean? And I imagine when you were a kid, too, like, like, people say things to you, so you're like, oh, my God, what. What. What if my parents do die? They're older, but there's always a piece. Or at least with me, there's always a piece that, well, it can't happen. It can't happen to me. And then all of a sudden, when it can happen to you, for me, it's like the floor. Like, not only the fact that I lost Jake, but the entire foundation of my life sort of shattered, right? Because when the biggest fear comes true, then it's almost like you don't know what else to trust.
- [09:11]
B
Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
- [09:12]
A
Like, like, like, does that.
- [09:14]
B
Yeah, totally. Oh, my gosh. That's such a good way to describe it. And I always say, you know, grief feels like one day you wake up and you don't recognize yourself or your surroundings ever again. And that's pretty much what it is, you know, And I Always say, everything about my life is because who. Of who my mom was, you know, she instilled such a deep faith, a deep Persona, a deep connection with me, that there is no me without my mom. Of course, you know, she's the one who brought me into this. But just every bit of who I am is because of what my mom shaped me into. So when that is gone, your definition of self, your direction in life, your confidence, your guidance, all of that goes away. And you literally feel like you are standing in a dark room with none of your senses, no guidance, no materials to help you get out of this dark room. And you have no idea what direction to go in first. And I think that that's the best way. If I had to paint a physical picture of that, that's what it would look like.
- [10:15]
A
Well, it's true, because it's like everything you think you know in the world in a split second is different. And it's just. It's so. It's not even. I always feel like grief is, like, it's all these different pieces of the puzzle, right? Like, it's the. And I guess before I lived it, I thought grief was just missing the person who passed. But it's. It's all those other pieces, right? It's like the pieces in yourself, the pieces in the life you thought you were going to have. The moments when you want to pick up the phone and call someone and you can't. The moment, like, the moment when you thought it would never happen, but it did. Like, it just changes perspective. You used a term, and I don't remember. I wrote it down. And I don't remember if it was in our first conversation or if it was in, like, the survey that you, like, filled out for me, but you used the term grief goggles, and I have never heard that before. I thought it was so profound and, like, fascinating, and I'm kind of secretly obsessed with it now. I warn the audience because I'm probably going to talk about grief goggles for, like, the next four episodes. Like, I just think it's so. It's such this cool idea, right? Like, this idea that grief adds a whole lens to everything that you do. And for me, like, I kind of mentioned, like, it took me a long time to just, like, be present with my grief and to have it be. You know, I mean, now it's actually most of what I do. Like, I run the foundation because my son died. I have these conversations because my son died. I write articles, you know, to try and get published about grief. And loss and living with grief, you know, so it's. I don't even really remember who I was before this anymore. But that. It literally takes. It puts a lens on everything. And I want to bring that back to something else you talked about is, like, the milestone piece. So I imagine for you, you've got these grief goggles, and it's like, you can never take them off.
- [12:10]
B
Yeah, they are. And they're very permanent. They're permanent.
- [12:14]
A
And I think about, you know, when you talk about your mom, and we've kind of jumped into this, and I want to kind of circle back a little bit about, like, when she got ill and all of that. But as you go through life now, are you. How present is it with you? Like, are you. Do you still want to, like, pick up the phone and call her? Like, does that still happen? Or are you. You know, are you hesitant? Like, I had someone on here once that was like, oh, my God, I didn't even want to get married because I didn't want her not to be there. Like, like, wanted to stop the milestone. Like, not only was the parent not gonna be there for the milestones, but wanted to, like, just not even have them anymore. How does. How does all that feel for you now?
- [12:53]
B
You know, if you've experienced grief, you know, it changes form every day. And, you know, and I always describe it as slippery. Once you think you have a grip on it, it changes shape and slips out of your hand. And I think that the answer to that question changes every day. And. But what does remain constant is those grief goggles. So it could be a happy moment, a sad moment, a frustrating moment. And I always see it through the context of losing my mom. I always use this example when describing, like, the depths of and the layers of my grief. The first haircut I got after I lost my mom, I sobbed. That day was one of the hardest days in my entire grief journey, because not only was I the one. You know, my mom was the one who I called, and I would FaceTime and show her my hair, and sometimes it was this crazy color or something she didn't approve of, but I'd call her anyways, and she'd always give me a compliment, always, you know, always have something lovely to say. And experiencing a moment like that has caught me the deepest in some parts, I think, in my work in therapy and my work, just becoming comfortable with my grief, a lot of that has come or been focused on acceptance. Acceptance that my mom is not here, acceptance that my mom will not meet my children. Acceptance that I'll make new friends or start a new, you know, career path or start new ventures in life that my mom will never know about. And I think I've spent a lot of time becoming comfortable with those big ideas, and it's those finite ones that kind of fall through the cracks that shock me or, you know, have the ability to shock you. And I've always caught my grief feeling sharper in moments like that. And again, sometimes it changes every day, and sometimes I'm like, you know, birthdays, for example. I've kind of come to not really love my birthday now that my mom isn't here. But I just turned 30 in the spring, and my sister and my friends threw this amazing birthday party for me. And I was like, mom would have thought this was so over the top. She would have laughed. She would have had fun. And she. Of course, I saw it through the fact that my mom wasn't there, but it wasn't that gut punch of, like, wow, I can't believe my mom isn't here.
- [15:11]
A
I love that answer because that is the perfect example. Like, and I think that is the. Among one of the hardest things to wrap your head around. Right? Like, and we talk about it a lot on the show, that it's. You're almost, like, mentally prepared sometimes for, like, the birthday or Mother's Day or the anniversary of the death. And I have some things, like, I've sort of made this pivot in my mind about that recently, but, like, you're, you know, to be prepared for those, or at least, like, anticipate that it could be hard. It's those random moments, like a haircut, like, the first haircut. I. When you were describing that, like, I can feel that, like, that sucks. Like, that's the worst. Like, it's like, with Jake, there was. There was, like, when I got rid of the. I used to drive a Volvo with him because it was, like, the safest car and blah, blah, blah. And when I got rid of that Volvo, I couldn't, like, I couldn't wrap my head around the fact that, like, my next car after that was the red Jeep. But, like, I couldn't wrap my head around the fact that Jake was never going to be in the Jeep. And it was such a, like, mental, like, like, barrier that I actually was, like, I had to get it red because we always associated red with Jake. So I was like, it had to be red. And then I also was like, I need to change my license plate. And I got a vanity plate that says Jakey Like, I was grappling so hard with how to keep him present in a car. Like, it was just a. Like, it seemed so weird. And even as I'm talking about it, it's like. But it's like, you. Grief can just, like, take those small moments, and it can make them huge. So I can imagine, like, that haircut or, like, and those are the ones you're not prepared for, right? Like, you're just. You don't see them coming, so you can't. Like, you can't brace yourself, right?
- [17:03]
B
And I completely hear what you're saying about the car. I'm such a sentimental person, and I was before I lost my mom. Now I am, like, times a thousand. So something like that is always where I found my grief, like, the most glaring at times. And those small moments are also. And I don't know if this has been the case for you. I have an incredible circle. My family, my friends. You know, people have held me up through this entire process, more than I ever imagined. But the fact of the matter is, people show up for those big moments. People show up for my birthday. People show up for Mother's Day and Christmas and, you know, big moments in my life where my mom is clearly not there, but who do I call after I get my hair cut? You know, who do I.
- [17:47]
A
100%.
- [17:48]
B
It's not a lack of no one being there. It's the fact that my mom isn't there there, you know, in those small moments. So I found that that is kind of an added layer to that feeling also, is just the. The sheer amount of people who know about a moment like that. And honestly, if you don't know grief in this depth, you. That's something I've learned from experiencing it firsthand. You know, I've had people experience grief that I thought I showed up really well for them, but I was showing up on Mother's Day and Christmas and their birthday, and, you know, I didn't realize that those small moments are really where grief lives.
- [18:21]
A
And what's hard about those, too, is I think even as, you know, like I said, I've been in this journey a long time, but a few years ago, in 2023, that's when Ethan, my other son, went to college. And I've talked about this before, and I even, like, wrote a piece that was, like, published on it, because I did not. I thought those small moments, like, I thought I knew all of them, right? Like, I knew there'd be hard days. I knew there'd be triggers. I knew there'd be all of the things. What I didn't know was that Ethan going to college and coming back to an empty house absolutely shattered me. Like, devastated me. And I never would have seen it coming because of, like, I was so happy for him. He got into the school, he went like this. It's the circle of life. Like, he was ready, we were ready. Like, I had empty nest trips, like, planned. Like, all was good, but. And even though my mind knew all that, it's like my heart was broken. It was just. I couldn't. It felt the same way as when Jake died. And even though I could reason that, like, wait, he didn't die, he went to college, he's two and a half hours away. Like, like, reasonably, I could say it and make sense of it, but that gut punch was wild. And there was no one to. Like, I couldn't even articulate it to talk to Brian about it. Like, it just literally left me. I ended up actually writing a letter to Jake because it was like the only way that I could get my feeling out in a way that I also didn't Feel like a crazy lunatic.
- [19:49]
B
Sure wish. Most of the time if you're grieving, you feel like a crazy lunatic.
- [19:52]
A
You feel like a crazy lunatic because it's like, you're like, holy crap, what is wrong with my brain? Like, what is it doing? But it's. It's wild. Like those moments, you know, you just.
- [20:01]
B
Yeah, it, it is. It's bringing up so much for me just hearing you say that. And again, you know, we have very different types of grief, but still so many connections through it. And I think that, you know, my first reaction when you're telling that story about Ethan going to college is I was like, well, it goes to show that joy and grief do in fact exist at the same time, which is one of the hardest things to wrap your head around. And your body, your physical body almost remembers and becomes so impacted by grief that I found those same feelings coming up in other non grief scenarios. Because if it's a loss or if it's an emptiness or a void. I went through a pretty serious breakup shortly after my mom had passed. And confusing the feelings between the breakup and the grief and the loss of my mom, that was all so intertwined. And it was hard for me to kind of sort that out because those feelings, they feel the same after a while. When your body experiences something like that in your mind, it's hard to separate the feeling of grief from.
- [21:11]
A
Well, it's like grief opens up all the emotions Right. Like, all these feelings that you may not have had to tap into previously. So that, to me, I think, is sort of it. So you're right. Your body has this sort of visceral reaction. And because it's had this big, huge feeling, like, it's wild to me because it's. You know, like, I. I was so stuck in it because I was like, my mind knows this is different. Like, my mind is happy for Ethan. Like, I'm thrilled for him. Like, but I couldn't. It took me, like, days to kind of work it through. It was wild.
- [21:44]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I've been exactly there.
- [21:46]
A
It's so. It's so nuts. I love that you said this, and I actually have this in bold because, you know, you talked about. And you just brought it up, like, joy and sadness coexist, and. And I don't. Until I started having these conversations, I never really had words for that. Like, I kind of. I would always say it. Right. And. And this might be true for you, too. It's definitely true for me. Like, I feel like when people lose a child, I have now become, like, someone. Right. Like, people either reach out because they know I've been there, or friends refer people. Like, you kind of become, I don't know, like, the voice of. Of your particular kind of grief, for sure. But it wasn't.
- [22:25]
B
So.
- [22:26]
A
I always knew. I would always say, like, you know, I remember when a friend of mine lost her daughter a couple years ago. She's like, am I ever gonna be happy again? Am I ever gonna laugh again? And I was like, yes, you most certainly are. And you're gonna go out and you're gonna have fun, and you're like, life will go on, and you're gonna feel weird about it at first, but it does. And then I started, like, in these conversations was, like, everybody experiences that. And I just love the way, you know, two things can be true. Right? Like. Cause I think that's so true of so many emotions, so many things. You know, my husband always rolls his eyes because he's like, anytime he hears someone else say it, he knows that I'm, like, on this bandwagon and say it. So he's kind of like, whatever, Heather. We know two things can be true. Blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's so true, right? Like, and I just.
- [23:09]
B
I love.
- [23:10]
A
Like, when. When you were talking about it before, I kind of almost had this, like, pang of jealousy, because I feel like it took me, I don't know, a decade to figure out that it's okay that Two things are true, that you can have great joy and great grief, and you don't have to trade one. Like, it's. They can be both equally present.
- [23:29]
B
Yeah.
- [23:31]
A
How did you figure that out? You know what I mean? Like, I. Like, I was like a late bloomer with that. So I feel like. Well, not like a late bloomer, but, like, I didn't have the language for it. And I just love. I love that it's here.
- [23:42]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I. I'll start by saying I am no angel when it comes to really fully, you know, experience letting myself be happy in moments that are categorically happy or let you know, I'm definitely still working out the balance of that. I think I'm trying to tell myself most often so that I don't rob myself of my whole life, you know, dwelling in my grief in a way. And I guess I will say that in the beginning, I remember my college friends and I always get together for New Year's, and it was two weeks after my mom had passed. I was like, I don't know if I want to go. Like, being with them sounds so appealing because those are my people and they charge my batteries. But it's like, do I have it in me? Do I would just want to sit at home? And I went. And I remember catching myself laughing and having fun and enjoying my friends and feeling this extreme guilt about being happy or not, shouting my grief to the mountaintops every second of every day. And in therapy, I talked a lot about that. And I came to realize that my. At that time, specifically in, like, the months and maybe year or so after my mom's passing, I felt a responsibility to the negative emotions that were tied to my grief, to my mom, because of a few things. One, those emotions were my last physical tie to my mom and her life here. The sadness, the mourning, the grief, the anxiety, the fear of her passing when she was sick, that was all so tied to the last chapter of my relationship with my mom.
- [25:30]
A
Interesting.
- [25:30]
B
So I felt a responsibility to uphold those, because I felt like if I severed those emotions and let some of them go and allowed myself to experience real joy again, I was letting the last part of my mom go. That's one reason. And the other reason is that the loss of my mom is the biggest thing in my universe that has ever happened and will ever happen. My mom is, and was larger than life, and I felt a responsibility to uphold the magnitude of the type of person that she was by being sad for so long to prove to people that this is a Big deal that she's gone. And it wasn't until, obviously, therapy and hearing my mom's voice in the back of my head telling me to get up and get going. My mom was, if anything, a realistic. And she wasn't a complainer, she wasn't a dweller. She was like, okay, what are we up against and how do we deal with it and how do we. How do we fix it? You know, she's very much problem solver. And I had this feeling, I'm like, She's looking at me like, get up and go, girl. Like, you can't be. I don't care. Like, I'm good, you know, like, go and do your thing. So I think it was a combination of a few things. Understanding that my relationship with my mom is so much more dynamic than, you know, those last few moments or months when she was really sick and feeling I kind of let go of that need to uphold that part of her. And I've leaned into now sharing moments that I love about my mom and the happy moments and funny memories. And I've found that people have come to me and shared more of those too over the years. Instead of being like, oh, you must be so sad that your mom's gone. And instead the conversation around my mom has turned into telling funny stories about her or, you know, sharing her jokes or her one liners, things like that. So I guess, yeah, looking. I still feel so new in my grief journey, but I have really dedicated and committed to the idea of feeling all of it in every degree, in every moment. So I think just spending time with it kind of helped me get to that point.
- [27:41]
A
I love that so much. I mean, I love a lot of what you said and I want to circle back to a lot of it, but I want to. I think this is a good place to kind of. That's. I hadn't. It's so profound to me that, you know, your connection with the sadness is because that's your last, like your last relationship with her, like your last chapter, I think you said, like, so can you talk a little bit? If you're comfortable with, you know. So your mom died of endometrial cancer, correct? Did I get that right?
- [28:08]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [28:09]
A
So did she, like, was she sick a long time? Did it come quick? Like, what was that like? Because I think you had mentioned you had a little bit of like anticipatory grief. And, you know, you had talked about like, you know, the underlying fear that your parents would die young. But also, I think, you know, a cancer Diagnosis can just trigger so much. So do you mind sharing a little bit of, like, the actual, like, what happened and.
- [28:30]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So my mom originally was diagnosed with cancer, I believe, in 2015 or around then. And it was in her uterus. They did the surgery. She. They took care of it. She needed no post care, no chemo, no radiation. They were like, you're good. And it was so much not a big deal that she really didn't even tell us that it was cancer at first. She didn't even really like. It was just, like I said, my mom was a realist, so she took care of it, and she was like, I'm good. My sisters were having kids at the time, so I think she kind of was like, no reason to alarm them. I'm going to take care of this and move on with my life. That's very much who my mom was. And then in 2020, she had gone into the emergency room with what she thought was appendicitis, and that's when they found the cancer. The irony of that is it was the depths of COVID And I was
- [29:25]
A
gonna say, you say 2020, and everyone's like, yeah, right.
- [29:28]
B
We were like. We always joke. We're like, oh, we were so afraid of mom and dad getting Covid, we forgot to worry about them getting cancer. So she got diagnosed in 2020. She started chemo right away. And she responded at first, well, to chemo. I believe she had eight rounds the first time, and then she spent about. It's crazy. The timeline used to be so ingrained in my head, and now the details become a little foggy. But the better part of a year in remission. Okay. And we thought that.
- [29:58]
A
Oh, in remission?
- [29:58]
B
Yeah, yeah, we thought, okay, that was a blip on her record. She retired during that time. You know, we're like, okay, cool. She's gonna get back on track, just like she always does, because she's her. And she was going for her regular, you know, checkups and everything like that. And then it came back, I wanna say, like, eight months after she finished chemo. And when I came back, that's when the. The feeling in the air changed. And a lot of, you know, the conversations around it felt different. The way people showed up were a little bit different. I think when you first get a cancer diagnosis, people flood you. People send the food, they send the cards, they send the balloons, they send. You know, the stuff comes flying in. And then she's in remission. So, okay. You know, that was taken care of. And then when it Came back. It felt like really, it was like us in our close circle against the world. And again, not to say that people didn't show up, but it just felt a little bit more intense. Yeah. Um, and then from there, she had more chemo. She was on an immunotherapy. They were on, you know, this other trial. She had other complications from. From the cancer and from the treatment, and slowly, she just withered away. And in about November of 2022 was when she decided she didn't want to receive treatment anymore. It kind of got to the point where the. The treatment they were giving her was not helping the cancer itself, and she decided to stop. And that is really when the anticipatory grief kicks in. Because there was always. Especially given who my mom was, there was never anything that was gonna take her. There was never anything she couldn't overcome. And. Oh, I thought I wasn't gonna cry. I thought I wasn't.
- [32:04]
A
It's hard. It's hard to relive those moments. You know, it's hard because you kind of go back to them, and they feel so real. Like they feel like you're right there.
- [32:13]
B
Yeah. And they become, you know, a timeline. And then when you really think of what we were going through and what was happening, it's, you know, it's hard to relive it. But, you know, she basically spent the next few months in, you know, comfort care. She essentially, you know, was on hospice for a while. They had, you know, a nurse coming to the house for a while, but from there, she deteriorated. Deteriorated pretty quickly. And as much so, the anticipatory grief, when you get the cancer diagnosis, immediately you think of the worst case scenario, but the realism in you kicks in also. At the same time, it's like, we're going to be fine. We're going to get through this. We're going to. She's going to do what she's got to do. This is going to be behind.
- [32:59]
A
We're going to be okay. Yeah.
- [33:01]
B
Yeah. And I think that's a survival thing. I think your. Your body kicks you into that so you can get through the next moment and the next moment for however long you need to. And the anticipatory grief came along with a lot of denial also. And I kind of put the two in very separate categories, because anticipatory grief comes along with so much fear and so much anxiety about, what are we gonna miss? When is it gonna happen? Am. Am I gonna be able to do this before she goes? And, you know, there's A point where I'm like, do I go to the courthouse and get married so my mom can be there? You know, which. Good thing that didn't happen. My mom would hate that. But, you know, so anticipatory grief is a lot of confusion and fear and trying to make the next right decision. And you're looking around like, what do I do? And it's a lot of inaction, but the need to put a plan together.
- [34:01]
A
Well, I think, as you said, it's like, you know, you're living in this world, right, where it's like, not if it's gonna happen, but when it's gonna happen. So then you almost falsely think that you have control, but you don't have control, but you're acting like you do. Right. You're like. Like you said, like, well, I know my mom is likely not going to see me get married, so let's go get married. Like, which aren't.
- [34:24]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [34:25]
A
Yeah. It's not rational, but it's like this. It's a crazy feeling. It's almost dumb. This is. It's not worse than grief, but, like, it's a really uncomfortable place, I think, at least for me. Like, when you're living in that space, for sure.
- [34:40]
B
Because it's a mix of trying to be realistic and trying to be optimistic without being delusional.
- [34:47]
A
Yeah.
- [34:47]
B
You know, it's this weird mix. You're. You really don't know how to react during it. But I will say, and I guess I call it denial, but I think it was maybe my self protecting me from the reality of it. And I think that allowed me to have somewhat of a normal relationship with my mom leading up to her passing. And I'm kind of processing some of this as these words are coming out. But I think about the night before my mom passed. We, Me and my family, my dad and my siblings were at the house. She was home. And, you know, we're just trying to keep her comfortable. And I had a new puppy at the time, and I was at the house, and we, you know, it was emotional, and she didn't look good. She didn't feel good.
- [35:34]
A
Did you know, like, it was imminent or did you. You weren't sure?
- [35:38]
B
I had no idea. And looking back now, I'm like, what? How did you not know it was so bad? Like, and so my mom stayed very close to home the last few months of her life. I think that that's natural. You know, we've talked to a lot of hospice people about things like that, and they Kind of, you know, turn inward when they're near the end. So my mom stayed home a lot. And my mom also looked physically very different. She lost a lot of weight, her hair was different. She wasn't this lively, bright, boisterous personality. And I think she was almost like embarrassed of that. Like she didn't want people seeing her like that. So she kept close to home, which so did we. You know, we stayed home with her, we didn't do much with her. And her deterioration happened right before our very eyes. So it was like so close to us, we couldn't see it. But other people see photos of her at the end and are like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that's your mom.
- [36:32]
A
That's so true though, right? Like when you're in it, you don't see it sometimes though, because it's like, it's a little bit like you just. To some people, it just. If they don't see it, it's like shocking. But then when you're in it, you're in it every day and you just. It changes, but not enough to see the big change. And you're just, it's. But then I can see that you look back and you're like, holy crap, how did I miss this?
- [36:56]
B
But right.
- [36:57]
A
It's almost self protecting too, right? Like, because you want to.
- [37:00]
B
That's what I. That's how I feel about that. Like my denial was protecting me. Because the. Like I said. Back to your question about did I know? No, I. The last conversation I had with my mom and looking back, I've become fond of this, you know, at first I was like, I cannot believe that's what I. The last few things I said to my mom. But she was very quiet, not really all that responsive, like just so tired and so out of it. And I had to go home to let my dog out because I have a new puppy and I could only be there for so long and it was getting late. I get up early for work and I went to her bedside and I said, ma, I gotta go. I gotta go home and let the damn dog out. To which she laughed because she wasn't really an animal person. She thought me getting a dog was silly and dumb anyways, so she laughed and I said, I'll see you later. And she said, okay. And I said, I love you. And she said, I love you back. And that's the last thing I ever said to my mom. And I was like, I cannot believe that that is what the last things I spoke to my Mom. But it is actually so perfect. I'm so glad I didn't say anything else. I'm so glad it was completely normal and my mom actually passed when I wasn't there.
- [38:14]
A
My.
- [38:14]
B
The rest of my family was there and I. I was at work because it happened the next morning. And I was like, that is exactly how it was supposed to go.
- [38:25]
A
And I have to say I got chills when you said that. And, and because as a mother, right, like, you think about your own mortality when you have kids because you just think of not being there for them, right? Like, and I'm not projecting anything or trying to say anything like what your mom would think. But like, but for her, like, that was her, like, chuckle because she's like, oh, she got a damn dog and now she's gotta go do it. And then that was like this, you know, you don't want this big, profound, weeping, dramatic goodbye. You want, you're going off to take care of your dog, then you're going to work. Like, that's what a mother. I'm not speaking for all mothers here, but you know what I mean? Like, I just feel like that's a really beautiful moment. And it's not wrapped up. It's wrapped up in mother daughter. It's not wrapped up in mom is dying. Like, it's not wrapped up in anything else.
- [39:15]
B
Absolutely.
- [39:16]
A
Do you know what I mean? Like, and I think it's almost her exhibiting some control of an uncontrollable situation, Right?
- [39:22]
B
Absolutely. And my mom always used this analogy. And not to go too far into my mom's mom isms here, but she always used the analogy of the spinning plates act in like a circus where you spin the, you know, the, the china on the pole and you keep them all going. And that's how she described parenting, where, you know, the four of us are. If our plates were spinning, it's like, okay, I can, I can leave her alone over there for a little bit. Her plate's spinning. But this one's, like, feeling a little wobbly. That one needs a little attention. So she would always, you know, describe us as her spinning plates. And she made sure all of our plates were spinning before she left. And there were so many details of that week leading up. My sister had Covid and she came the night, you know, she was out of her quarantine period the night before. So she was able to be there from out of town and be with my sister. You know, my other sister had just dropped her kids off at school and was there and My brother was there. So she waited for us to be perfectly all in place as her final acts of taking care of us to make sure that we were set before she went. And I've spent a lot of time thinking about that moment and reliving it and I don't think it could be any more perfect.
- [40:31]
A
No. And I think it's just, it's like her last act as your mom. Right. Like, it's just this. That's not wrapped up in her. I mean, obviously it's wrapped up in her illness and being sick, but it's not wrapped up in that moment. It's wrapped up in just love you, love you back. Like, you know all of those things.
- [40:45]
B
Yeah.
- [40:46]
A
I want to go next because you referenced the next morning she passed and you were at work. And one of the things I wanted to. I'm really interested in because I, I'm interested in kind of like for my own selfish reasons, but just also because I think it's sort of, it's just interesting. Your job is pretty public facing. Right. Like you are talking to people every morning. Like they, it's one of those jobs where people feel like they know you even though they don't. Right. Like they just, they know this piece of you. How you know. So you, you've. She passed while you were at work. What was that like? Like, did you. I'm assuming you found out after you were off the air, but maybe not. Like, like, what is all of that like? And how is it, how have you navigated your grief publicly? Yeah.
- [41:30]
B
So the story, there's a little bit of background that goes into this story. So my co host, Jake, who we do.
- [41:38]
A
Which I love, by the way, I love any Jake.
- [41:40]
B
Yeah, of course, of course. He is married to my first cousin.
- [41:45]
A
Okay.
- [41:45]
B
My first cousin, Sabrina. Sabrina is my mom's goddaughter. So there's very. We're very close knit, very close knit family.
- [41:55]
A
You did that just happened by coincidence or did like kind of know each other before or like.
- [42:01]
B
Yeah. So Jake and I had met years before and an opportunity came up at the station where, you know, his partner, there's an opening on the show and I came in and auditioned and it worked out. We had been kind of talking like, oh, wouldn't it be so amazing for us to do the show together one day? It was a pipe dream. And then now we do it every day and we can't believe that that's our life.
- [42:20]
A
That's awesome.
- [42:20]
B
We feel so grateful for it, but. So all that to say our Fam. We're family over there. So I was at work. Jake and I drive. This is such a crazy story because again, my mom making sure everybody was in place. We drive in together. We carpool in the morning. My dad had called me multiple times when I had gotten off the air when he knew that our last break was done. And I didn't see my phone. My phone was in my bag or in my pocket. Jake and I are in the car driving home together. And if I found out in that moment, I have no doubt in my mind that Jake would have done an amazing job of being there and handling it. But the implications for that is, then, now the rest of my family knows what happened. And, you know, ultimately my mom's sister and I would hate for her to find out that way in that way. Yep, Right. So my dad calls me multiple times. I don't see it. Jake and I split ways, and I see the missed calls from my dad, so I call him right back. And that's when I found out when I was by myself, detached from work, you know, with that whole day behind me, I had a little bit of time lined up to take off for the holidays. So again, my mom, like, you know, knowing that I was ready to take some time off. So that's kind of how that went, that, you know, the actual moment. And I always find that so poetic in a way because of just exactly how it happened. It happened exactly how it was supposed to, just like my mom would have it. But when it comes to the actual job itself, self, it has been difficult.
- [44:01]
A
It.
- [44:01]
B
You know, I'm so grateful for a job that is fun and exciting and I get to laugh. It is exhausting. And my co host, Jake, actually totally told me something that completely rewired my brain because I was saying, you know, I'm so tired from turning the mics on for two minutes and being, you know, goofy, happy, talking about celebrity news or funny stories and, you know, being a jokester, and then immediately the mic shutting off and literally slumping in my chair and being so tired, and just the emotional whiplash of trying to handle grief and trying to be funny and be present. And I felt like I owed it to our listeners, you know, to give them what they always expected. And when I did come back after my mom passed, I was very, you know, honest and open about what had happened. And, you know, so I've always been authentic on the air in terms of what's really going on in life. But Jake told me something that altered me, and he said, how Lucky are you to have something that does pull you out of it, even if it is for two minutes at a. At a time. Or maybe you do have to fake it, but it's proving to you that you have the ability to fake it. You know, some people don't. You know, there's been times where you weren't able to fake it. So I think that has been something that has been replaying in my mind when I start to get exhausted or just feel like I need a break. I'm like, I'm so lucky to have this job where I come in and I laugh and I can be creative and I can tell stories about my mom and I can tell everybody who has a radio about my mom, you know, So I think I'm more grateful than anything that this is my job. I think about if I sat at a desk or in a cubicle and what that would have done to my mental health and just my existence. But there are times where I am actively, you know, Jake and I will talk about real stuff off air and actively wiping tears away from my face while talking about something you would have no idea, like, completely unrelated, you know, so talk about joy and grief existing at the same time. I've really gotten these concrete examples of that where I'm actively crying about my grief and the words that are coming out of my mouth have nothing to do with it.
- [46:11]
A
I love that idea. You know, I love what Jake said. I also, when you were talking, it reminded me of a conversation I had with a guest of the show. And it's something I was struggling with. I was struggling with this idea of, like, here I am living, like, very transparent with my grief. Like the podcast, like, my work, my writing, like, you know, being this, like, person that people come to when they're struggling with their own grief, to talk grief. And I was having recently, like, very recently, like in the fall, like, I was struggling with this. Like, I don't want to be a grievant. Like, I'm kind of done now. I don't want to be a griever anymore. Like, I was like, very mentally, like a two year old. Like, I'm finished. I don't want to be a grieving mother. I don't want to be the voice for grieving mothers. I'm over it. And I was like, how can I go back to just being me? And what this guest said, Rebecca Fineglass, she was like, but, Heather, you're always all of it. Like, we're always all of it. So we are. And it just, it Was so. And I knew that, right? Like, I knew that I've lived 15 years with this grief, but I needed the reminder. And it's kind of the same thing, right? Like you are all of it. Like you are the person that's crying over your mom not being around, but at the same time sharing a celebrity, news, gossip, bs, you know what I mean? And all of those things, right? It's what we've been talking about. This whole thing, two things, multiple things can be true. But just the way she said it was exactly, exactly what I needed to hear at that time. And I've come back to that piece because there's no. Once you have this loss, right, there's no way to strip away to be who you were or who you are without it. It's just who we are now. And we are grievers. And, and I had a guest back a long time ago and she introduced me to that term and I use it all the time now because I think it's just a. It's not a badge, but it's like, hey, it's part of who we are. And, and I do think once you. And it's slippery kind of like you said, right? Like, I spent years being really like in tuned with my grief. And then just this fall I was like, I know I was traveling with my friends and they were talking about, oh, can so and so call you because they've had. They lost their kid. And I was just exhausted by being like the talk grief girl. Like, I just was tired of it. But now it was a reminder that I'm grateful for it also. Like, I'm grateful to have this community. I'm grateful that this is part of who I am. I'm grateful that I have these convers and we're all of it. And sometimes when you're. And everybody's all of it, whether it involves grief or not. But like it was just a really nice reminder. So I kind of. As you were saying that, I was thinking of that myself. Like, we can be and we are all of it. And it's just, it's become. It's part of our DNA now. Right. Like it. Which I know is not scientifically correct, but you know what I mean? Like, it's part of who we are. It's part of like the nature of who we are is we have lost people and it's. It's never going to go away, even when you wish it did. Yeah. But it's just there.
- [49:04]
B
I always. And this is something that has kind of been Helpful for me in processing the fact that it will never go away, because sometimes the. The finality of that is hard to grasp. I describe grief often as a privilege, and let me explain, because people hear that and they're like, what are you talking about? Grief opens every emotion at once. Like you said, it opens experiences that you would never have otherwise, good and bad. And it opens this door in life that you only experience in the wake of the loss of someone you love. It is the only way to get to those lessons, to that growth, to that, you know, emotional experience. It is the one way ticket there. And if you have not experienced deep grief, not that you don't experience other forms of growth and, you know, life experience as a whole, but I almost see it as like this badge of honor that you wear, that you went through absolute hell to get there, but you earned your right to this life experience. And I found myself, you know, able to connect with people better, hear people's stories in a different way, be present for people who need it, and. And also just take on things in my life that I never thought would be possible or conversations I never thought would be possible because I lost my mom. Would I trade my mom back for all those things 1,000 times over? But in recognizing and accepting that my mom is gone, I've been able to realize and accept that I've gotten a lot of life experience out of this, and I have grown because I lost my mom. And that is a really weird thing to say because you never think anything good comes out of losing, you know, or experiencing the worst thing possible. But it is this club that you're in, and it's like this exclusive life experience that you get strictly from grief.
- [50:59]
A
It's so true. And, you know, I've said this a couple times already. Like, there's a few things you've said that have literally took me over a decade to figure out. So, like, kudos to you because, like, I didn't do therapy. I didn't do this stuff. I had to figure this out sort of like, like clunkily on my own. But I. It's so true, though. Like, I have said this a million times. Like, I am. Like, I'm a better person because Jake died. Like, I'm more compassionate. I'm more in the moment. Like, I have a better, like, understanding with people. Like, I just am, like a kinder, gentler version that. And, you know, not that I was this horrible person before, but I just am. And I always say, like, I give a million dollars to, like, be who I was with my kid, but. But you can't go back. So I. I do. I totally, 1000% agree with you that there is a privilege and a gift that comes from this deep, deep loss.
- [51:55]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [51:57]
A
I want to circle to. There was a couple things you said, and I want to. I think this is kind of a beautiful place to start to wrap up. Like, you talked about hearing your mom's voice in the back of your head, like, kind of, you know, especially in those darker moments when you're, like, you didn't. You know, you needed the reminder. Like, get up. Like, live, like, every. It's okay to live. It's okay to have fun. Like, all of those things. I started, like, you know, when we started recording at home. One of the things. You know, I'm sitting on this red couch, and one of the. This is, like, one of the sole pieces of furniture left in the house that Jake was on, you know, and it's on our third floor. And it's just. But this. This couch was where. I don't know, like, I'd fall asleep with him. It's where I fed him often. Like, when he was first, you know, a. When he was healthy, we had this couch. And then when he had the seizure and he was sick and all of that. This is, like. Some nights, it's kind of a funny story. Like, it opens up into a horribly uncomfortable, like, sleeper. But, like, Ethan would be little, and he'd be like, family sleepover. So the four of us would sleep again. Like, the mattress was, like, an inch thick. It was horrible. But I sit here on this couch, you know, when I record this podcast, and I have these conversations, and it's this corny, but it's like, one of the ways that makes me still feel like Jake's mom. Like, I'm connected. And I think about you saying, you know, you hear mom's voice. Like, do you have any places or things or anything where you feel or where you can go to. To feel extra close to your mom or connected?
- [53:28]
B
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I. I will say my mom was so woven into every corner of my life that there's not many areas that I can turn to where I don't feel her there, but the one that stands out the most to me. And it's funny that I'm saying this right now, because as I'm about to start the sentence for the first time, the sun is shining through my window. So my mom is bombarding this interview.
- [53:51]
A
I love that.
- [53:52]
B
I love that I always find my mom in the sun. She was the sun. Her birthday was a summer solstice. She always said it was the longest day of the year because it's the day we get the most sunshine. She always bragged about how she got the longest page birthday. She was the sun. She lit up every room that she walked into. She lit up people. She guided people. You know, she was the matriarch. She's the oldest of her own eight siblings. Everybody looked to her for happiness, light heartedness, guidance, hope. If you were in despair, you were calling my mom. So I always find my mom in the sun. That feeling when you face the sun even on a cold winter day, which kind of has come synonymous with my mom just losing her in the winter, you know, on a cold winter day where it's a clear blue sky and the sun is shining and you feel the warmth on the back, like through your jacket. That is what my mom felt like. Oh, that's so beautiful.
- [54:53]
A
Yeah.
- [54:53]
B
And so that is, that is really where I feel a deep, profound connection to my mom. And, and I cannot believe that the sun is shining through all my plants right now. And this window, it's really weirding me out. I love that.
- [55:06]
A
So what a. I think that's so beautiful. What was your mom's name?
- [55:10]
B
Ann Marie.
- [55:11]
A
Anne Marie. So I'm happy she's here with us. I love that. I, I always say too, like, you know, sometimes people don't say their names or like they don't want to bring it up. And I'm always like, I try to be cognizant because I love, like, I love when people like. And you had mentioned this before, like, you know, not. Not bringing it up doesn't make us, you know, forget it happened. Right. But instead when people come up and share stories or talk about your mom or tell you something you didn't know or, or just any of that, it. Right. It just kind of feels good.
- [55:42]
B
Yeah. I see people. I've seen like videos online of people at a coffee shop will give their person's name just so they can hear it said out loud by someone else, you know, So I always think that that's.
- [55:53]
A
I had a guest once who did that and I thought that was so brilliant. And I was. I can't do it because it'd be weird. I'm like, hey, I'm Jake. But okay, but, but I think that's. I just think it's so cool that there's all these. It's one of the things kind of coming full circle in our conversation about talking Grief that when you do have these conversations, they're not. More often than not, they're not. Yes, there's moments when you tear up and there's moments when you get sad and you relive it. But like you get these other takeaways and these ideas too of like all these other people living with the same like heaviness but finding way moments of light and that's what it is. And whether it's feeling the sun and the sun coming out, because I can tell you I was out for the better part of the day and it was the grayest, coldest, ugliest day today. So the fact that the sun is shining, I'm in it, it's your mom. But I do I just. If you had one thing to offer the audience, like I love to always kind of give takeaways too. You know, if someone's listening who is early in their grief or doesn't know how to process it, do you have any, I hate saying advice but like more like what's something that got you through some of those early days?
- [57:02]
B
Oh my gosh, I'm gonna take over the whole season. If I talk about, I guess what comes to mind and again this is what is helpful is talk about. It is in every detail of it. The raw details, the things that people don't ask about. Find a way to talk about it. Therapy was an incredible tool for me. I know it's not a good fit for everybody, but that was my way to talk about it and it fit in my life. Share the stories, write them down, post the photos, make a part of your home about them, wear their clothes if you have them, or make their favorite meal. Keep your person alive in the way that you live your day to day life and tell people about them. That has been. I love when I have a scenario that someone doesn't know me or know my mom and I can talk about my mom in first person because they don't know that she's not here. And that has been a little comfort for me to find just a way to be like oh, for this moment and this person person's reality they don't know. And it's comfortable, you know, for a moment to know that like oh, you know, for now that you know that idea.
- [58:16]
A
For that moment. Yeah, yeah, I love that and I think that's so true. Right. Like creating these moments that work and for the people listening who are wondering how to support like all of those things too, like don't be afraid to ask, don't be afraid to say their name. Like, I don't know. Yeah, it's how we. It's how we keep going and it's how we keep them present.
- [58:37]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And I. I have to say, I am, first of all, of course, so happy to be here and have this conversation with you. And I could, you know, do this 10 times over with you, and I've just had such an amazing time making some time to talk about it. But I really admire your ability to have these conversations. You know, I look for conversations where I can talk about my mom or talk about grief in general with people, and I feel deeply connected to those who can have those conversations with me. But that being said, I know how exhausting it is to take on other people's grief all the time and try to, you know, feel for someone when you're like, well, I get it too, you know, So I just really admire your ability to host these conversations and welcome people and their grief and their hurt and their heartache in when you yourself carry that, you know, that same thing. So I really admire that about you. And thank you for that.
- [59:26]
A
Thank you so much. No, I was. I've loved having this conversation and I always feel this too. Like, I always feel like if I don't control myself, these episodes will be, like, forever long and no one will listen. Because who wants to listen to a, you know, four hour podcast? Thank you so much for being a part of it and I can't wait for this episode to go live.
- [59:42]
B
I know. I'm so excited. Thank you again, times a million. I will always remember this conversation. And thanks for letting me talk about my mom.
- [59:49]
A
Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it too. See you next time on A Place of Yes.