← A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast 
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Heather Straughter, and this is a place of. Yes. In each episode, we have honest conversations about grief. The messy parts, the unexpected moments, and the ways we begin to heal through heartfelt stories and expert advice. My hope is to offer you comfort, connection, and a reminder that you don't have to navigate this alone. Today's guest is Timothy Scram, a funeral director with more than 40 years of experience helping families navigate loss. Throughout his career, Tim has walked alongside people in some of the most difficult moments of their lives. And he has also served as both a state and federal mass fatality responder. In this conversation, he shares what decades in funeral service have taught him about grief. The quiet ways people show up for one another after loss and the responsibility of helping families find their way through the unimaginable. It's a thoughtful and deeply human conversation about compassion, service and why the moments in our lives truly matter. And I'm grateful to share it with you. Thank you for being here. Welcome to the show.
- [01:00]
B
Thank you, Heather. Appreciate the opportunity.
- [01:03]
A
To me, funeral directors have this incredible ability to take the worst days of people's lives and make them. I don't want to say make them better because they're still terrible days, but make them tolerable, to make them something that you can look back on and be happy that you experienced and be reflective. And for us, when our son Jake died, our funeral director was incredible. And I had no idea in those days because it's not something you think about, right? Like you don't ne or I never did. I never thought of a role of a funeral director until I met Roland, who literally changed our entire experience and knew what we needed when we had no idea what we needed. So how did you find yourself here and just talk about the work?
- [02:00]
B
So my name is Timothy Schramm. I am a spokesperson with the National Funeral Directors association, licensed funeral director. Have done everything at our funeral home as a funeral service associate director of operations, chief operating officer, and now the owner and chief executive officer.
- [02:24]
A
I'll preface it by saying, like, I know how when I just even having these conversations sometimes and really immersing myself in grief conversations. If I have multiple in a week, sometimes by the end of the week, I am drained. Like, it takes a lot out of me.
- [02:38]
B
When the final disposition has been completed and a family says to you, thank you so much. We couldn't have walked these steps without you, right? We couldn't have gotten through this without you. That just fuels the passion, you know, the other, you know, the other Piece of it. Burnout, fatigue. One I'm pretty good at getting to the gym, you know, four or five days a week. That's just my thing, right. Some people play golf, some people bowl, some people would work, whatever it is, right. For me, I've been weightlifting since I was 14, 15 years old. So for me, debt recharges. My family, my wife and kids, when my kids were younger, they would tell you. There was times when I came home from work, and I would just hold them and hold them hard, right. And as they got older, right. They came to realize, you know, you had a tough day, dad. Right. Because I was hanging on to them because I needed them.
- [03:58]
A
Yeah. Hugging tighter. So I asked this question, sort of. I don't know if selfishly is the word, but our funeral director, he knew what we needed when we didn't. And I'm intrigued by that. And what I mean by that is, you know, Jake died. It was unexpected. And in the beginning, Brian and I were just like, okay. Like, we were pretty numb, pretty in shock. And we definitely were like, well, let's just get this over with. Like, that we went into the funeral with like, how quick can we do this? And Roland really was like. He knew that we would have regretted that, and he pushed us to slow it down. And, you know, there were a bunch of just kind of different things that he pushed us to make decisions that I'm so grateful we did, because had we, you know, if he. We were like, he passed away on a Wednesday, we were ready to be like, Friday, Saturday, let's be done. And had we done that, I feel like now I would still be, like, almost maybe still in shock, because instead what happened was he gave us all of this time, and I think we. I don't even remember. I think we were like, Monday, Tuesday. But he. We lived across the street, or we do live across the street from the funeral home that we used. And he kept the door open all the time and left Jake in a place where, like, literally at 2 in the morning, we could go sit with him and did all of these things that I didn't even know were possible. But when I say life changing and moment changing, like, for all of us, and for Ethan, who was 5 at the time, like, we just. We'd have sandwiches in the room with Jake, it gave us this idea of, like, not acceptance, but it allowed us time to begin to accept what had happened, where if we did what we thought we wanted to do, it would have been a mess. So how do you. And I'm sure, there's patterns that emerge and all of that, but like, when I think of that, like we were, we went in hell bent that, no, let's get this over with and it wasn't what happened and it was the right thing. So like, how do you know how to figure that out? And I'm sure it's all individual, but I just think it's such a gift.
- [06:03]
B
First of all, he gave you the opportunity to see your son again. Right. Which to me is an important part in beginning a healthy grief journey. Right. Just that psychological acknowledgement of seeing a deceased loved one. It's such an important step. Two, the importance of gathering together. Right. With family, with friends, with community. You don't realize it until you are going through it. One, how many people were touched by Jake's life? How many people were touched by Jake's story that were touched by your family that knew your family, that you probably seen people you had not seen in years. Right. Personally, for me, my father, he died in 2005. I graduated high school in June of 1983, went to school with Kalman Koresi from the time I was in Caregarden all the way through High Square. From the day we graduated In June of 1983, I had never seen him. And in April of 2005, when we opened the doors for the public visitation, the first person that walked through the door was Kalman Quresi. The importance of gathering together. I will never forget the impact that he made by showing up. Right. And that's what your funeral director did, was give. Yeah. The structure, the opportunity for that public acknowledgment, that shared moment with your family, your friends, your community. And again, it's just my belief, an important part of beginning a healthy grief journey. That you're still on today. That I'm still on today with my father who died in 2005. I'm still on a grief journey because I'm telling you, I miss him every week. I miss him every Saturday morning when we used to talk for nearly 20 years. I'm still sad when I think in that. Right. And sometimes I shed a tear, sometimes I smile, sometimes I laugh because I think of something funny, he would say, because he had said it before, like those types of things, but just the importance of gathering together, sharing memories, sharing love, sharing support, sharing your grief. You are not alone in this. Those are all important pieces. And that's why your funeral service professional was so special.
- [09:14]
A
That was so interesting. So thank you for all of that for me, because that was almost Like, I don't want to say therapeutic, but in a weird way, it was because it put some background to the. The choices that were made 15 years ago. And it makes so much sense. Do you know what I mean? And sort of the, like, the thinking behind it, because, you know, with so many things that you don't know about, or at least I don't know about you, it's hard to even know where it came from. So I was like, oh, he. How did he know? He was so good, but the words you just used makes so much sense. And the other piece that was interesting was because while we went in. So, like, let's get this done fast. And he slowed our roll was like, no, let's not. At a certain point, there was also. I was like, well, let's just stay like this. Like, we don't actually need to bury him or have a big service, because I just want to come visit him. Like, he could also see where that line where I was getting a little, like, kooky, and he was like, no, now it's time, you know, so it really was like, what a role. I love that story you just shared about the person you went to high school with. And I think those are such. Because it was as you were sharing that I was remembering people I had not seen in many years. You know, I graduated high school close to where I live now, but I lived in Boston for close to 15 years. It's where the boys were born. It's where I met my husband. His family's there. I worked as a teacher for 10 years or so. And when we moved back to this area, there were people that I had worked with that I did not. You know, not that we didn't keep in touch, but just, you know, life changes. I had small children and a whole crew from my school that I worked with in Boston at that point years ago, like, came, and it was just this really special. Like, I remember when they walked in, it was just hugs and tears, and it was just when you're. I always say, my world's collided, right? Like, it's like these different chapters of who you were that make you who you are, all coming together at such a pivotal, important time. And those are the things you remember. It's so important, you know, so funerals. I think about funerals, too, because they're very public. And like you said, a lot of times, you know, it's this opportunity for people to grieve together. But often people don't feel comfortable grieving publicly. You know, there's still, that piece where they. It's very private. Are there any moments that you have witnessed where, like, in some of this, you know, some of it you shared, like. But even in your own story. But where most, like, you must see people when a lot of times other people don't see them. So there's these, like, quiet moments when everybody's not there, when you're not in the public funeral, where people are grieving quietly and without, you know, giving anyone's private stories. But are there moments that you've seen that you just kind of are like, I'm good at what I do. I'm glad I do it. I'm the right person for it, or any of those.
- [12:10]
B
You know, I'm glad that I had.
- [12:12]
A
I would hope so, because I think you're very talented. You know, you're very. You're. You're very compassionate. And I. I just can tell from the way you share it.
- [12:22]
B
Thankful, appreciative. Grateful for the opportunity to serve. And again, what there's. As a funeral service professional, there's no greater honor than caring for people, right? Caring for family, caring for friends, caring for people. You know, there's no greater r. There's really not. You know, I mean, moments abound in my mind, right? I'm thinking of all of these different things, right? Families that I have served that I haven't. You know, people I went to high school with, teachers, right? I had one teacher who was coach also. And he walked through the front door one day and coach, Al, what are you doing here? And he said, timmy, I need to sit down and make some plans. And I said, what happened? And he goes, hasn't happened yet, but I'm going to die real soon.
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A
Oh, wow. So for himself.
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B
Yes. Yeah. He had been diagnosed with a terminal brain cancer. And, you know, those moments, right? They are so incredibly special.
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A
It's so. And you've said this a couple times, and it kind of really just sank in with this last piece. But the way that you treat this as something. You're grateful and it's such an honor to do. And I kind of get it now, right, because you have this. You're in a role where you can change someone's life, where you can make a difference.
- [14:11]
B
Make a difference.
- [14:12]
A
And what a difference to make. I am. I don't quite know how to say this, but it's so. To me, it's. It's such a noble profession, and it's such, like. I do feel like. I feel weird saying this, but it's like, you have to have a calling. And I feel like your story of how you came into it is also kind of meaningful because I think that this is, it's not to be taken lightly. Like, you're really dealing with. You have the ability to make such a difference and such an impact. And, and if it's, it's like a teacher, right? Like, if you, you, you remember the really good ones that stand out, but you also remember the bad ones. So you don't want, you know, there's these opportunities to really help people in their grief journey. And I like the way you said it, because I, I say that all the time, too. Like, grief journeys aren't short, they're forever. You know, like, it's not like, oh, you lost someone and then you're, you're through it. It's, it's, you know, we've talked about it. It's not linear. It's. It's more like waves, and it can hit you anytime, and often you don't see it coming. So the one thing we can say about, about death and loss is that it changes your life from that moment forever. And it's interesting just in the, in hearing you talk, I kind of get that now. Like, you do find it an honor, and because you find it that way, it impacts everyone else. So, so thank you for doing what you do. And I'm grateful that, you know, oftentimes you started with that high school test. I feel like sometimes those are so silly. I don't remember what it told me I was going to be. I remember I was fighting my, my son Ethan because he's like, no mindset. I'm going to be a bartender. And I was like, no, like, not there's anything wrong with it, but that's not your career choice. He said, no, it said it. And I'm like, so I'm glad yours worked out.
- [15:58]
B
I want to, you know, fate. I, I, I really don't know. I, I just, I can't imagine doing anything else. Right. My, My brother just retired as a teacher. He was a teacher for 37 years. I did. Ended up in jail. I just, I really would have.
- [16:18]
A
Oh, patience. Yeah, yeah. It's. I taught for 10 years and I, I always. And I loved it and still, like, you know, the one thing I, one of the things I think is great about social media is I. Some of my students from when they were in fourth and fifth grade, I'm still connected with them. I see them as, like, young adult adults now. I see them as parents now. But I also Feel like teaching is one of those careers where you have to know when to tap out. And I was sort of, you know, I stopped when I had kids and I never went back. And I sometimes think I'm glad I didn't because it's hard. It was not easy.
- [16:55]
B
Yeah, there's no doubt. But teachers do make a difference in people's lives. My fourth grade teacher I am still friends with, now he doesn't live here locally. We're basically connected over social media. You know, probably once a year he comes into town to see some local family, that type of thing. But he made a difference in my life as a nine year old. Right. So teachers do make a difference.
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A
No, it's pretty profound.
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B
I just couldn't do it.
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A
It's funny how we end up where we're supposed to be, one way or another.
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B
Amen.
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A
I like it. So I want to pivot a little bit because I'd love to talk. So you serve as a state and federal mass fatality responder. So can you even explain what that role involves and what you do? Because that's gotta. I can only imagine.
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B
Yeah. So both our state team and the federal team are kind of structured in the same way. So my mort, Michigan's mass fatality response team is the Michigan Mortuary Operations Response Team. Federally, it's dmort, the Disaster Mortuary Operations Response Team. So everything from search and recovery through morgue operations that would be necessary for identification, all of that information is captured in what's called the morgue information center. On the victim side is the victim information Center. Victim advocates, we interview families, get ante mortem information. So height, weight, hair color, eye color, facial hair, piercings, tattoos, medical history, dental X rays, radiographs, if there's an implant. Just about every implant has a unique serial number that can be used as an identifier, whether it's a knee, a hip, a pacemaker, a defibrillator. Right. Most of those items have unique serial numbers that can be used as identifiers. So ultimately what we do is we take all of the information captured in the morgue information center, all of the information captured in the victim information center, and we use those to create a potential positive identification for the medical examiner in charge to reunite that decedent with their left arm. So on a state level, I've done everything from our disaster portable morgue unit. Our I was a victim interviewer, a family interviewer. I was our vic, section chief, our vic, Mick, section chief and ultimately commander of our team. Now for the last 11 years, and DMORT, I'm with DMORT Team Vic. I am a family interviewer. So, you know, my responsibility, I have an eight page interview to do with that family and then go find information that we can connect to create that positive identification.
- [20:33]
A
So you're interviewing family and they know someone has been involved. So you're interviewing the family to get information to. So this might be a very stupid question, but like, what constitutes like a mass fatality? Like is there a certain number or is it like, like a terrible car accident? Like, like a multi. It could be, or it could be a single car. Any of these.
- [20:57]
B
It really, what it, what, you know, what constitute a mass fatality incident is what exceeds the local medical examiner's capability of handling.
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A
Got it.
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B
Right.
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A
Okay.
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B
So as an example, northern rural Michigan, here we have a local medical examiner who Sundays, I have five teenagers in a single car crash where there was a fire. Right. I don't have the resources to be able to do identification on five non familial individuals. Right.
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A
So then you guys step in.
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B
Right, exactly right. Dr. Joyce DeYoung, she was the medical examiner at WMED Western Michigan Medical School, Kalamazoo, had an incident where somebody drove a vehicle through a bike race.
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A
Oh, God.
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B
Right. And so it wasn't the fact that there were so many fatalities that overwhelmed her office, it was the fact of, one, that it all happened at once. Two, it was actually a holiday weekend and she had a number of staff gone and three families wanted answers. Now, but because she was short staffed and you know, trying to process everything the right way. Right. In her after action report, she said it wasn't about the number of fatalities was overwhelming. But I, you know, in the next time, if there was an incident like this, I would contact my mort. One, just to get some personnel to backfill me. And two, so that I had, we could set up a victim information center so families had a place to go where they could be interviewed, where we could get information to assist in that positive identification, where we could do family briefings. Right. And keep them all together and quite frankly, somewhat isolated. So they weren't, you know, coming into the medical examiner's office to do an interview and going home to try and get something to bring it back for
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A
them and keeping it just a little bit more.
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B
Right. You know, that type of thing. So it's not really about a number. Okay. It's about a local medical examiner who may need assistance.
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A
Now how so that has to like doing those family interviews. I mean, all of your tools must come out for that, like all of your, like, compassion. And I mean, that's because you are. They know that their person is gone, but they haven't been identified. Like, is that kind of what you're. So you're trying to. Or. They're assuming the worst, and the worst is often the case. Is that kind of.
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B
Yeah. So one. Every incident is different. Right. So I was on the Maui Wildfire response.
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A
Okay.
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B
Right. It's not a closed population. It's not a closed census. You don't know how many people are involved. It's all based upon estimates. And ultimately they were reports. And I use my air quotes. Quotes. Reports of that there were 3,000 unaccounted for people.
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A
Okay.
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B
So, you know those families that we were interviewing? Don't know. They had no idea. So as an example, I interviewed a young lady. Her brother was unaccounted for. He lived in Lahaina. He, you know, was not his phone, was just going to voicemail, wasn't returning any text messages. She couldn't find anybody that seen him, knew where he was or anything like that. Right. So we did our interview. You know, I got dental X rays, got medical radiographs, got DNA sample from her. So, you know, all things that we could use for identifiers. Right. Three days later, she came running into the Family Assistance center just screaming and crying. Right. And I was like, oh, my God, her brother's been found. He's been identified. She's been notified. Right. She was coming to tell me he was found and he was alive.
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A
Oh, wow.
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B
He literally ran, right? Ran from his house, left his phone behind. And in today's world, how many phone numbers do you actually know?
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A
None.
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B
Right. You have names in your phone, right?
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A
100%.
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B
Right. So he didn't. So it took him three days to finally be able to reconnect with his sister because he didn't know her phone number. Right. And so he's going through people, but he literally ran to a friend's house, which was about three miles north of Lahaina. And so she was coming to tell me he was alive. Right. But he was part of those 3000 unaccounted for that had been reported to Maui PD, had been reported to Maui Emergency Management and had been reported to Maui FBI. So his name was actually three names of those 3,000 unaccounted, four people. Because he was on three different lists and all they were doing was totaling up the list and nobody was communicating with each other. Of I have this name. I have this name. There were. When they finally shared Those lists with us, with our team. Right. We were, we're going through. Going, right. Well, this person had already been identified and they're still being reported as unaccountable on another list.
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A
So then you.
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B
So every. Right. Every, every incident is different. Right? Was on the DC aircraft collision response, the military helicopter passenger jet, Washington, D.C. january of last year. Right. Close population. You know, everybody who's on that helicopter, you know, everybody who's on that passenger job. Right. So those families, as you said, right. Are. Right. They're, they're certain that their loved one is, has died in that incident. Right. It's a, it's a closed population. So that makes the response different. Right.
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A
Because there's. You're not approaching it with any sense of like, hope or anything. Because you're just.
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B
Correct. Yeah. Right. So, you know, and again, that response was so different and so unique in the environment, the atmosphere, the people. Right. So first of all, those families. So the, the three soldiers, when they were recovered, were immediately turned over to the DOD. Right. So we're, we're working with the 64 that were crew and passengers on Flight 5342. So first of all, the, the care team from American Air Rides, they were awesome.
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A
Okay, that's good to hear.
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B
Just awesome people, right? The, the folks from, you know, the ntsb, from the, you know, Capitol Police, the FBI, you know, state police, from, you know, just multiple agencies that were involved in the response. They were all just good people. They were kind people. The families were so loving, so supportive of one another. So many of them are still connected. They have, you know, they have formed a group families of Flight 53, 42. Many of us who responded are still connected. KK from the Washington D.C. forensic center, she's their chief medical examiner investigator. She was embedded with our team because when, when a positive identification was. Was made, she took the lead in family notifications. Right. And so we worked, you know, side by side, 14 hours a day for seven days. We still communicate to.
- [30:41]
A
That there's gotta be some sort of. I, I never thought of that. But the fact that the families have each other and that you guys. Because when you're so. Like you said for 14 days back to back, and I would imagine you don't want to stop because you want to give families that answer and that closure. It's like if you stop, then it's delaying even their ability to move forward. So you've got to be so connected to some of these people, I would imagine, right. Because you're doing this work together and
- [31:14]
B
there's people you will never forget, right. There are families that I met in as an example. So families that our state team was deployed in April and May of 2020 to provide morgue surge capacity relief for local hospitals of COVID positive decedents. And so we were calling families to let them know their loved one was in our care and how could we help them engage with the local funeral director, Final disposition. Right. Those types of things. I'll never forget stories that I heard from those families. Right. My mom's in intensive care on a ventilator and we don't know what to do because we don't want to disappoint her. We don't want to do something she wouldn't want us to do do. We're just trying to wait. Just things like that. Right. Stories you'll never forget. Maui. So the Red Cross that was supporting the Family Assistance center and oftentimes supporting us with, you know, food, water and drink. Right. So. But it was the same Red Cross team in Washington D.C. that was in Maui.
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A
Oh, wow. Okay.
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B
Right. And so when we come into the app, you know, the incident happens Wednesday night, 8:45pm I'm literally at the Family Assistance Center, 3:45pm on Thursday in Bethesda, Maryland. And you know, Red Cross is coming in at the same time and we're like, oh my God. Right? You're just, you, right, you're, you're, you're seeing them again and you, you both know why, right? Unfortunately. But you just, you feel, you find comfort in that 100%.
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A
There's gotta be like this mixed emotion though, because you know, you're there for a, you know, the reason you're there, but there's comfort in being there together or knowing that you are doing the work with other people who are like minded and compassionate and Absolutely. How often are you kind of called to this? And I know that you never know when something's going to happen, so you certainly can't plan for it. But is this something that happens frequently or is it, you know, that you either state or federal. Like what is.
- [33:54]
B
One, I would say let's hope we never have to come together again. It's first and foremost. Two, what I hope is that we spend more time in training and more time doing exercises to be prepared for the what if and it's never when. Right. So you know, like I said, you have no, you know, there's no predictors. Right. You have no way of knowing if and or when. So our job as responders is to Train, exercise and be prepared.
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A
Yep. Be ready.
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B
So that's what we do, both on a federal level and on a state level, is do those things. Right. We, we. We have annual training, annual exercises, you know, command staff meeting on, you know, monthly basis. Right. Those types of things. Just to be prepared and be as
- [35:03]
A
prepared as you can possibly be and never have to use your. What you're prepared for is the. So there's, there's like. I have so much going on in my head because I just, I, I remember when we spoke the first time, and one of the things you had said when I was kind of like, how do you do. Like, how do you go home and be happy? How do you, you know, have date night with your wife? Like, how do you do the things that are great in life when there's so much, you know, when you're so in these other things. And I believe you said something like, you like to mow your lawn sometimes. Like, you just, you know, and so I think about the kind of. The need or the healthiness in sometimes compartmentalizing. And I was wondering if you could just talk a little bit about that, because you've gotta be in the moments all the time when you're in them, because people literally depend on you and. But then you also need to be able to, like you said, like, go to the gym or just like, hug your kids tighter, but also just find that place to live in joy and live in happiness and live your life.
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B
Compartmentalize. Right. You know, call it.
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A
I'm not sure if that's the right word, but.
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B
Right, exactly. You know, call it what you would like. So, you know, John Maxwell Speaker LEADERSHIP coach, you know, moments matter. Focus on the moment. Right. And so I think that's what I'm capable of is focusing on the moment. It's a moment with a family. It's a moment caring for a decedent. It's a moment helping a community come together to grieve. It's a moment at home with my wife. It's a moment when I'm in the gym and I have my headphones on and. Right. I'm not looking at emails, I don't have staff calling my phone. Right. All that kind of stuff. Right. It's just, I'm focused on the moment that I'm in, like you said. Right. I love cutting my grass for that simple reason. The only thing I have to focus on is staying in a straight line. So for me, it's just focus on the moment. You know, two couldn't do Wouldn't be where I am, couldn't do what I've done, you know, over my lifetime if it was not for my wife. She is absolutely the reason I am who I am and where I am. Right. Because again, the. Whether it's a day at work or a day on a mass fatality response, she's my debriefer, she's my safe space. Right. We can laugh, we can cry. I can share my feelings and not be judged. I can share my anger and not be judged. Right. Whatever it is. So my single answer wouldn't be the ability to compartmentalize. My single answer would be my wife, that I couldn't do what I do without her.
- [38:19]
A
I love that. And I do think. I think you sort of brought up something that is a perfect way to end this conversation. And it's with that idea that moments matter. They matter. You can take that apart in so many different ways. And they all matter, right? Like, they matter from the work you do, from the work that I do and our personal experiences with grief. Moments matter because you just don't know. You don't know when it's done. You don't know. You know, you can't wait for tomorrow because it's not guaranteed all of those things. And moments matter. So I love that. I'm grateful for you for taking the time to have this conversation and to. To share your experience as a funeral director and as a responder and to share with the audience all that goes into it. And thank you. I appreciate you being here very much.
- [39:09]
B
Honor and a privilege. Again, amazing to meet you, to hear Jake's story, to hear your story following his death. But again, the journey continues.
- [39:24]
A
Yes.
- [39:24]
B
Your journey is not over. I'm. You said it earlier. I'm a firm believer. You don't get over it. You learn how to live a new life after a loss because your life is changed forever after a death of a mudboard.
- [39:43]
A
100%. Thank you for doing what you do and thank you for being here.
- [39:47]
B
Thank you, Heather. I appreciate it.
- [39:50]
A
Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it to see you next time on A Place of Yes.