How to Support a Grieving Friend Without Making It Awkward

Summary

Podcast Summary:

A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast
Episode: How to Support a Grieving Friend Without Making It Awkward
Date: March 18, 2026
Host: Heather Straughter (Jake’s Help From Heaven)
Guest: Heidi Dunston (Certified Grief Educator, Author, Speaker)

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Episode Overview

This special 100th episode features host Heather Straughter in a deeply honest discussion with grief educator and author Heidi Dunston. Drawing from the sudden loss of her husband Mike, Heidi offers candid insights on grief’s messy reality, dismantling well-meaning but harmful platitudes, and concrete advice on how friends and family can show up for those who are grieving—without awkwardness or judgment. Through personal stories and practical examples, this episode examines how to be truly present, the pitfalls of silence, and how small gestures can mean the most.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Heidi’s Story: Grief Up Close

[02:13]–[08:13]

• Heidi lost her husband suddenly to a heart attack, two days after Christmas and the day before her 40th birthday, while planning a surprise party.
• "My life went from planning a 40-person surprise birthday party to being in a room with a time of death, and my life turned upside down and inside out immediately." —Heidi [02:37]
• Heather and Heidi reflect on how a single moment divides life into before-and-after, and how control becomes illusory.

2. Trauma, Memory, and Presence

[06:12]–[13:11]

• Heidi performed CPR, describing the physical and emotional trauma:
  “CPR is not meant to be done on people we love. It changes you.” —Heidi [06:53]
• The days and rituals surrounding loss are traumatic, especially when loaded with significant anniversaries (holidays, birthdays, etc.).
• Heather and Heidi discuss how memories (wanted and unwanted) linger and shape the grieving process.

3. Navigating Anniversaries & “Hard Days”

[09:45]–[13:11]

• Both women recount facing clusters of emotionally charged dates, and strategies for coping, such as leaving town to avoid memory-laden environments.
• Heidi: “I chose not to be home my first year... I strategically went somewhere where I didn’t have memories of him.” [13:11]

4. Feeling Under a Microscope

[12:27]–[16:25]

• Grievers often feel judged or scrutinized about their coping, even when support is well-intentioned.
• “I feel like you live under a microscope. Whether that’s true or not, that is the story I told myself.” —Heidi [12:27]

5. The Judgment Trap & Grief "Kryptonite"

[16:25]–[19:17]

• Society’s expectations and judgments can make grievers “armor up” and suppress their true feelings.
• “I truly believe judgment is grief kryptonite. It stops us from connecting.” —Heidi [16:45]
• Generational differences in grief expression and discussion are examined, with hope that younger generations are breaking harmful cycles.

6. How Not to Be Awkward: What to Say—And Not Say

[19:17]–[33:38]

• Common comfort phrases often miss the mark—e.g., “everything happens for a reason,” “at least,” “I’m sorry for your loss,” and “you’re so strong”—and can be hurtful or minimize pain.
• Stories of misguided empathy (e.g., pet loss comparisons, “prize for grieving the longest” from a doctor) highlight how well-meaning comments can wound.

Memorable Quotes:

• “Call me if you need me” doesn’t work. I didn’t know what I needed.” —Heidi [22:42]
• “The silence is like a forever barrier almost.” —Heather [26:55]
• “I'm sorry for your loss is one of the stupidest statements ever said.” —Heidi [29:39]
• Heidi suggests instead:
  • “My heart goes out to you.”
  • “How’s today?” rather than “How are you?”
  • “How can I support you today?”

7. Showing Up: Actions Over Words

[33:38]–[40:50]

• Heidi and Heather share examples of silent presence, small gestures, and physical help—like delivering groceries, taking out the trash, or simply sitting together—being more impactful than words.
• “Show up in the ways you can. Don’t overcommit. Don’t assume someone else is stepping in.” —Heidi [38:55]

8. The Power of Humor and Unexpected "Grief Angels"

[34:21]–[37:39]

• Grievers appreciate presence and even humor; a neighbor giving Kleenex instead of flowers left a lasting positive memory.
• “Humor can help... seven years later, I can still talk about it and smile.” —Heidi [35:49]
• Often, it’s unexpected people who step up in meaningful ways.

9. Avoiding Secondary Losses & The Danger of Assumptions

[40:30]–[43:08]

• Grief often triggers additional losses—of friendships, community, routine.
• “Don’t assume… Everybody thought that [my closest friends] had surrounded me, and they weren’t there.” —Heidi [40:55]

10. When Grievers Have to Console Others

[43:08]–[44:35]

• Grievers frequently find themselves comforting the uncomfortable, putting aside their pain to soothe others’ distress.

11. Changing the Conversation: Focus on Life, Not Death

[43:42]–[46:26]

• Instead of asking, “How did they die?” ask, “What was their name?” or “Tell me about them.”
• “Why do we ask people how somebody died instead of asking how their person lived?” —Heidi [44:35]
• The best compliment:
  “I wish I met your [loved one]. He sounds like an amazing man.” —Heidi [46:18]

12. Legacy, Meaning & Ongoing Connection

[47:26]–[51:01]

• Heidi frames her grief work as an extension of her connection with Mike:
  “He’s still helping me make my dreams come true, which is how he loved me and how he loves me still.” [47:26]
• Heather, too, honors Jake’s legacy and connection through her podcast and foundation.

13. Moving from Loss to Love

[51:01]–[52:48]

• Grief isn’t about the pain of absence; it’s learning how to love in a new way.
• “When we move from the loss and into that finding meaning… Instead of saying, I miss Mike, I say, I love Mike. And I really lean into that love.” —Heidi [51:22]

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Notable Quotes & Time Stamps

• “CPR is not meant to be done on people we love. It changes you.” —Heidi [06:53]
• “Judgment is grief kryptonite. It stops us from connecting.” —Heidi [16:45]
• “Call me if you need me’ doesn’t work. I didn’t know what I needed.” —Heidi [22:42]
• “I'm sorry for your loss is one of the stupidest statements ever said.” —Heidi [29:39]
• “The silence is like a forever barrier almost.” —Heather [26:55]
• “Show up in the ways you can. Don’t overcommit. Don’t assume.” —Heidi [38:55]
• “Why do we ask people how somebody died instead of asking how their person lived?” —Heidi [44:35]
• “He’s still helping me make my dreams come true, which is how he loved me and how he loves me still.” —Heidi [47:26]
• “When we move from the loss and into that finding meaning… I really lean into that love.” —Heidi [51:22]

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Practical Takeaways: How to Support a Grieving Friend

• Ask “How’s today?” instead of “How are you?” [22:42]
• Use specific offers: “Can I bring groceries?” “Can I pick up your kids?”
• Be present: Silence can be powerful if paired with presence (“Can I come sit with you?”).
• Send a brief note or even an emoji to show you care [27:55]
• Don’t rely on platitudes (“I’m sorry for your loss,” “You're so strong”): They rarely connect.
• Acknowledge pain and invite sharing: “My heart goes out to you. Would you like to share a favorite memory?”
• Never assume someone else is checking in—reach out yourself.
• Avoid asking how someone died; instead, honor how they lived.
• Support in practical ways: errands, meals, household help (even garbage runs or taking down Christmas trees).
• Show up as you are—presence matters more than perfect words.

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Resources & How to Connect with Heidi

• Website: heididunston.ca
• Social: Heidi Dunston or Lean Into Grief on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram
• "Grief is connection, and it deserves to be witnessed." —Heidi [53:59]
• Heidi offers free masterclasses for those wanting to learn how to support grieving loved ones.

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Episode Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, compassionate, at times gently humorous, and always unfiltered. Heather and Heidi create a safe, validating space—“A Place of Yes”—where messy feelings are embraced and the realities of grief are dealt with head on.

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Suggested Listening Timestamps

• Heidi’s story of sudden loss: [02:13]
• Why platitudes fall short: [21:15], [29:39]
• What to do instead—actionable tips: [22:42], [33:38], [38:55]
• Focusing on life, not death: [44:35]
• Carrying legacy and love onward: [47:26], [51:22]

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Closing

Heather thanks Heidi for making grief less intimidating and equipping listeners to be more supportive, present friends and family. Heidi reminds listeners:
“Grief is connection, and it deserves to be witnessed.” [53:59]

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This episode is rich in heartfelt wisdom and practical advice—a vital listen for anyone wanting to show up better for those who are grieving.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Heather Straughter, and before today's episode begins, I want to take a moment to acknowledge something special. Today marks the 100th episode of a Place of Yes. What started as a way for me to talk about Jake and his life has become something much bigger. Over the past 100 conversations, we've talked about loss, love, resilience, and healing. If you've been listening, sharing the show, or simply holding space for these stories, thank you. This community exists because of you. Hi, I'm Heather Straughter, and this is a Place of Yes. In each episode, we have honest conversations about grief, the messy parts, the unexpected moments, and the ways we begin to heal through heartfelt stories and expert advice. My hope is to offer you comfort, connection, and a reminder that you don't have to navigate this alone. Today I'm joined by Heidi Dunston, a certified grief educator, author and speaker who whose husband Mike died suddenly just two days after Christmas and the day before her 40th birthday. We talk about grief as love, why certain comfort phrases can miss the mark, and the small ways people can show up that truly matter. It's real helpful and full of perspective, and I'm grateful to share it with you. So I'm here today with Heidi Dunston, and it is a conversation that I've been looking forward to. For those of you who've listened to this show, whether once or for multiple seasons, you know that we face grief head on. We don't, you know, tiptoe around it. We don't talk about these stages and all that stuff. We really talk about it in the true form, in the real messy, complicated way that grief hits us. And Heidi's story is deeply layered. She is a griever. She has suffered her own losses. But what I'm most interested in sharing and talking about is that she has taken those losses and she has almost like, done a pivot in her professional career. She is now a certified grief educator, an author, a speaker with a mission of helping others navigate their loss. And not only navigate their own loss, but how others can help their friends or their family navigate loss. Welcome to the show, Heidi. I'm happy to have you here.

[B]

So excited to be here. I'm really looking forward to this. Thanks for having me, Heather.

[A]

Absolutely. Heidi, you lost your husband Mike, tragically, suddenly. Can you start by sharing that story? Because I think that sort of kicks off it all.

[B]

So it was seven years ago. It was two days after Christmas. It was the day before my 40th birthday, and we were going to Costco, because I'd found out that he had planned a 40 person surprise birthday party for me.

[A]

No longer a surprise.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No longer a surprise. And in true Mike fashion, I said, what are all these 40 people gonna eat? And he's like, chicken wings and cake. And I'm an event manager by trade, so I was like, we're going shopping, and I'm gonna enhance the menu. And on the way home from Costco, we were bringing groceries in. He had a massive heart attack in the driveway. And in an hour, my life went from planning a 40 person surprise birthday party to being in a room with a time of death, and my life turned upside down and inside out immediately.

[A]

Heidi, I'm so sorry. I mean, that is. You know, we talk about the show a lot about those moments, right? And I'm sort of always fixated on it in my own story, even 15 years later. But it's hard for me to wrap my head around how that one moment, right, like, you're in Costco, and then. Then you're in this other space that you can never, ever go back from.

[B]

It changes your life in an instant. And it. It reminds us how little control we have in this world. Do you think?

[A]

In some ways, and I wonder this, because in some ways, I think my experience with Jake has turned me a little bit. And. And part of it was always who I am. But I'm. I'm sort of a control freak now. Like, I like to control everything that I can control, and I think some of it stems from that, even though intrinsically, because experiences, you know, you have zero control. Right?

[B]

Yeah. I think what it's done for me is really reminded me how present I need to be, because the moments can shift like that. And now I'm like, I don't want to miss anything. I want to make sure that I'm present. I. I let people know that I love them. I. I mean, it was really funny because we'd pulled in and my car was in the driveway, and we lived in a place where there was a visitor lot. So he was. His truck was in the driveway.

[A]

And.

[B]

And so he was like, I'm gonna move my truck to the visitor lot so we can unload all the groceries. And he was a retired fireman, and so, like, he was proud of the fact that he drove fire trucks and all that stuff. And I always would say to him, drive safe up, babe. I love you. And so I said that to him as he was driving his truck 50ft to the visitor lot. And he Was like, I'm only going to the park. But those were my last words to him. And I'm so grateful they were, because I know that you and I have had conversations with people where the last words were probably not ones they want to hold onto. And I'm glad that I got to.

[A]

It's a testament. I remember growing up, my mom would always say, no matter what's going on, like, you can't, like, always say love you always say, goodnight. Don't go to bed mad. Continue the fight in the morning if you're having a fight. But, like, make sure your last words are like, good night, I love you, and mean them. And I. You know, all these years later with my husband, where sometimes I'm, like, not sure. Like, I always, like, we don't go to bed mad ever. You know, like, it's just so. I mean, I love that. In the habit of that, right? Like, even though he was going 50ft, that that can be your last, last words with him.

[B]

I always said to him, it sounds weird if I say, I love you, I love you. So I say, drive safe. I love you.

[A]

So massive heart attack you had. Like, you obviously did not see this coming. You were planning at Costco.

[B]

He said, like, he felt like he had the flu. And I was like, oh, let's just stay home. It's between Christmas. He was gonna go to work that afternoon. And I was like, let's just stay home and watch movies and rest. And nobody's gonna care that you're not at work between Christmas and New Year's. And he went for a rest. All right.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Right?

[A]

No, it's wild. I think. So how do you bounce? Bounce back is the wrong thing. Like, how do you process? How do you deal with those memories? And I know for me, they haunted me for years. Cause Jake died on my watch. Jake was on my lap when everything turned. So I've had to work really hard, and I don't always do a great job of it, but I think when we had talked before, I believe you said you administered CPR on him. And what has stayed with me from that conversation is. And correct me if I say this wrong, but something to the effect of CPR is not meant to be done on people we love.

[B]

No, it's not. It changes you. I mean, my husband was a first responder. He did 30 years with the fire department, and thankfully, we lived across the street from the fire department. So When I phoned 911, I had said, it's Captain Wilson, retired Captain Wilson. And I don't know what's going on. I'd never seen a heart attack before. I had seen seizures and also. But I knew it wasn't good. And they were like, do you know cpr? And I said, yes. They're like, we need you to start compressions. And if you've ever done cpr, you know that starting compressions, the only way that it's effective is if you break somebody's ribs. And so the trauma of that physically took its toll on my body. It took about two years to get that feeling out of my body, like any.

[A]

And you mean feeling like you could feel if you've ever broken a bone.

[B]

Yeah, if you've ever broken your own bone, you've often felt it.

[A]

I've actually never broken a bone, which is shocking because I'm, like, potentially one of the biggest klutzes you could ever speak to.

[B]

What are you, rubber?

[A]

Apparently. Because it is. If you've seen the falls I've taken and the things that have happened, but, I mean, now I feel like I need to knock wood because I might break my first boat at 52. Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, So, I mean, there's a lot of trauma around it, and we all know that when we lose people we love, not everybody grieves the same. And so there was lots of family stuff. There was a lot of stuff. And I mean, it was my birthday. Like, there was. There was just so many things around it that just made it traumatic. It. And. And the day you lose anybody you cherish, whether it's expected or not, is traumatic 100%. Right. It is a day that's etched in your memory. Right.

[A]

Forever. And it's. You know, and I always toy with this because I wonder if it's. I wonder sometimes if, like, the day that Jake died is exactly as I remember, but it's. I always sort of. It's irrelevant if it is or not, because it's always going to be that way or that version of what it is. And I honestly have just been a little bit stuck in the space of, like, what would I have done differently if I knew on December 7, 2010, that that was my last day with Jake? And I don't know why that even entered my mind 15 plus years later, but I've been stuck with it a little. And I don't know if it's because my older son turned 21, and that seems really monumental. And, you know, I'm having all of the, like, life is so fleeting kind of moments, but it is. It's hard that day is always going to be something. And you had your birthday around that day, Christmas, New Year's, like how is that time of year even seven years later? Like, how do you process those days and how do you handle it?

[B]

So I have all my 12, all my hard days are in a 12 day span. So I have Christmas, I have his. The anniversary, I call it his wing anniversary. The day he got his wings, because that was important to him. I have my birthday, I have New year's. And then January 6th is his birthday. I mean, and so I had all my firsts, like before he, Before I even had his funeral. I had my first birthday without him. I had my first New Year's without him. I had his first birthday without him. And then I had his service.

[A]

And the services are hard too. You know, those are. I feel like for many years I blocked those, but then they kind of came back years later of like. Cause that's. I mean, I can remember very like viscerally when they were closing the casket and putting it into the hearse to bring Jake to be buried. And I just, I remember being like, why do we have to do this? Why can't he just stay here? Like, why can't we just visit him like this? And it sounds crazy, but I remember being like, no, I'm serious. Like, why do we. Why? And obviously you can't. But it's. So the services are. There's that finality to them.

[B]

There is. And the way I try to explain grief to people is I truly believe that grief is love. And when you miss and grieve your person, it's because you're trying to learn how to love them in a new way. And so at a service, you're sometimes days and maybe weeks out and you don't want to learn how to love them in a new way. You still need them present. Because it just doesn't make sense that they're not here.

[A]

It doesn't make sense. I mean, I think those words and the first time we talked, I remember just feeling very connected to you because I love the words you use. Right.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I mean, that is just it. And grief is love. You know, it takes time to figure that out. But so a lot of my days too are similar. You know, Jake died December 8th, goes into Christmas. You know, his services were. Honestly, I don't remember the dates now, but they were right before Christmas. Then there's Christmas, then there's New Year's, then there's my birthday, then there's my son's birthday you know, so it's this stretch, and then, oddly enough, Jake's birthday is May 4, and my husband's is May 7. So even my husband's birthday is kind of, you know, paired. And we kind of like that. You know, like, it's. It's this sort of reminder of all things, but the days are hard. And how do you process those days now? Because I know I still struggle with that chunk of time.

[B]

Yeah. So I. I think the hard part with grief, especially when it's a significant loss like a spouse or a child, is as the griever, you feel like you live under a microscope. Whether that's true or not, that is the story I told myself. And everything is a memory. You could drive down the road and you're like, that's where we wanted. That's where we had our first dinner. Or I've always wanted to take him to that place. There's memories everywhere. And so I chose not to be home my first year. And So I left December 23rd, and I spent it in Mexico for three weeks.

[A]

Is Mexico a place you went together?

[B]

Never. I had no memories of him here. I strategically went somewhere where I didn't have memories of him because I was like. I mean, I had been anxious, like, September onwards about how I was going to get through December because I was like, last December, I. I didn't think I'd survive. And I was like, I don't know that I can do another one of those. And so I came to Mexico, and I'm in Mexico right now. I still come to Mexico in the winter, and now I just stay here longer because I'm a Canadian, and I don't do that. Don't go back to. The weather smartens up.

[A]

Weather's awful.

[B]

Yeah, it's terrible. And I fell in love with being at the bay and being able to have the ocean kind of just help me carry some of the stress and not have my friends and family so close to me that I felt like I was under watch. And I know that their watch meant care and love. But as a griever, you also know that it comes with judgment.

[A]

There's so much there. I mean, I first want to say that we also do a lot of these anniversaries, not home. And it's interesting. I asked if you had been there with Mike because. And I don't know if this is. Because especially at the time we had Ethan, and Jake and ethan were only 15 months apart. So it was just this very, like, hard dynamic. But we have always gone Away. I always call it sort of the death day, which I know it seems dark, but I never like calling it, like, the death anniversary, because to me, anniversary is, like, it brings joy. Like, you know, and. And so I'm always kind of like, it's his death day. But we have always gone to places that we went with him. Because in those moments, like, even though the memories are there, they're not the everyday memory. They're like the really special memories. And sometimes it's just down to New York City, which is close to home, and we just go there. And I can remember being, like, at a park where Ethan was running around, but I was holding Jake. They're talking to me. They're like, beautiful memories. And we still do it this year, actually, we went to Montreal because we had always. Where we live is only about three hours from Montreal, so it's an easy drive. And we used to take him there because we couldn't do airline travel with him. We couldn't do a lot of things with him. So we felt somewhere different. We felt very like we were on vacation. So we tried to do that. But that feeling you just said of being under watch is huge. Because I couldn't agree more that with that the premise of everything being about care and love. But there is judgment. There is. And I get it sometimes, because I don't cry. Like, I cry a ton over the stupidest stuff. Like, I will cry over, like, a commercial on TV or a passage I'm reading in a book. I don't cry typically. Like, sometimes I do, but more often than not, when I'm talking about Jake, I don't. And there's so much judgment, or perceived judgment. Maybe there isn't about that. Like, people, I think, still feel like you should grieve a certain way.

[B]

I always. I talk about. Have you ever watched the TV show America's Got Talent?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you know, when the contestants get the golden buzzer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do they all celebrate the same?

[A]

That's an excellent analogy, actually.

[B]

Yeah, they don't. Right. But we celebrate alongside them.

[A]

But we judge regardless of how they do it. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Because some of them are. They're a lot. Some of them. Right. And yet we judge how people move through pain. And if we could actually just love people exactly where they're at without judgment. I truly believe judgment is grief, kryptonite. It stops us from connecting and when we can actually just go. I see this is so hard for you today. And it doesn't matter that your son died 15 years ago or it doesn't matter that you took off your wedding ring. Like, none of it matters. I see that you're important to me, and I see that it's hard. And I want to be with you. If you want that. If you want me in your space right now, that can go so much further than call me if you need me.

[A]

I mean, that is. That is segueing right into sort of where I really want to have some of these conversations. But I love what you just said about judgment being kryptonite, because it's also that piece, right, like, where internally, and I think every griever has experienced this, is when you feel that someone is disappointed in how you're grieving or annoyed or telling you to move on or get over it or whatever it is. And sometimes it's too much emotion, sometimes it's not enough. But we shut down. We no longer feel safe to share how we're feeling. And I think generationally, like, older generations have just lived that way, particularly in the United States, I think, because I don't think we handle grief at all, you know, in any way, shape, or form. But I think there's generations that are just, you know, they're like, well, I didn't talk about it, so you shouldn't talk about it, like, that kind of thing. And the one thing I do think that younger generations are doing so much better is just feeling it and trying to learn. And it's one of the things that when I started this podcast, it was more, you know, talking about the families I've worked with and the work and my own stories. But what I've loved is coming out having these conversations that I think are so important, that are not only validating the griever and how they're feeling, but also, how can we do better? And I say we because sometimes I say stupid stuff, too. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, it's just how to be cognizant of different things. So I kind of like how you're saying, like, if you want to be in the space, how can we be better at supporting?

[B]

And I think that's why I do. What I do is as I spent more time in my own grief and then with other Grievers, because I. When you all of a sudden lose somebody, like, I needed, it didn't make sense. Like, we all know it doesn't matter who you've lost. When you've lost somebody you treasure, your life doesn't make sense anymore. And there's grief comes with a whole lot of crazy Right. There's a. It's one little word that encompasses so many emotions. Good, bad, and ugly like that. But there's some beautiful emotions. And so you feel like you're going crazy, and so you go and you connect with other Grievers. And what I found when I connected with other Grievers is all of us had stories of people who loved us, who said things that missed the mark and that held us back from holding, being able to move through our grief because we. Like you said, we armored up. Like, I felt like I was this woman who every day was broken inside. And anytime I left my house, I felt like I had to put on a suit of armor because I was afraid of what people were gonna say was gonna hurt so much, and I was already down. I didn't need any more hurt. Right. And they didn't mean to. You know, like, three days after Mike died, I ran into somebody at the grocery store, and she's like, I understand grief. I went through divorce. That was her way of trying to empathize. It wasn't her trying to be cruel. But it was cruel, right?

[A]

No. I was once at a social event, and this was years after Jake died, but the woman had. Somehow. We were talking. The woman had put together, oh, my goodness, you're with Jake's help from heaven, which is our foundation. She's like, I didn't put it together. I'm so sorry for your loss. Pauses and then says, my bird died. I was like, I'm sorry for your loss. Like, But I was, like, flabbergasted, and I get, like, pet loss. I get all the things. But I was like. That was your response?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My son, your bird like it. I can't forget it. Like, you know, it's. It's.

[B]

It stands out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And again, it wasn't cruel. It was connection. But it was off.

[B]

Off. Right. And it was the. The. You know, the people that were like, everything happens for a reason. The only reason was that he had a clogged artery, but that isn't a reason enough that he isn't with me or the. At least. Right. At least you'll find love again, Heidi. Because it's a switch, and I just turn it off. Like, it doesn't work like that. But then we say it in other things, like, when somebody has cancer, at least they're not suffering anymore, or at least you can get another dog. And when we see these people mean that, what they're trying to do is. It's a platitude that just doesn't land right. It's a platitude that's like, I want to find the silver lining for you. Well, the silver lining is my life sucks right now, and I'm doing the best I can, and I don't need you to tell me how to put my pants on. Right?

[A]

It's that minimization. And I don't even know if that's a word, but they're minimizing how we feel. And as you were talking about all these. And it's interesting, but at least the way my brain works, and I think a lot of ours, you remember the ones that don't hit right, and they stay with you different than the ones you know. There's plenty of people who did right things for me along the way, but I sit in the space of the ones that hurt me, you know? And it's. It's human nature.

[B]

I think it stings because we're already so sensitive and hyper vigilant, and I even know people that are like, I didn't even. I knew it didn't feel right, but I didn't know why it hurt. Like asking, how are you? When you ask somebody, how are you? You're supposed to say, you're good, fine, or okay. When you're grieving, you're none of them. And so I teach people, say, how's today? Where are you at? Right? Instead of the call me if you need me. It's like, how can I support you today? Can I pick up groceries? Can I pick up your kids? Give them something. Because let me tell you, I didn't know what I needed. And I definitely wasn't gonna be dialing somebody's number to be able to say, I don't know what I need, but I messed up. It didn't work that way, right?

[A]

How long did it take you, after Mike's passing, to kind of focus, to realize that this was, I don't wanna say your calling, but this is. You know, you sort of took this. You shifted this into your purpose, and I think it's so powerful because unlike some people who just talk. In the generalizations, even in this first 20 minutes of this conversation, you have given, like, very concrete. Instead of this, say this. Like, how long did it take you to find this. This kind of new?

[B]

So, oddly enough, I. I just started. It was the world of COVID and I'm a social being and. But yet I was in another country. I was in Mexico, and I was like. So I joined an audio only app called Clubhouse, and we would have rooms about death and dying. There was, like, funeral directors there and people that specialized in grief. And people would come in, and it's really funny because when people are grieving, they don't typically go to their friends because their friends say stupid stuff. I don't even have a nice way to say that. Like, their friends say stupid things to them.

[A]

Your friends can. Yeah, that's absolutely true.

[B]

Or they say nothing at all. And that silence is deafening when you're grieving. I started talking about it, and I was like, you know, I read a story, or I was chatting with a woman and her doctor, like, her husband died in a workplace accident. He was 27 years old. She was 33, and he'd been gone nine months. And her doctor was like, out of all my patients, you take the prize in grieving the longest. That came from her doctor. Good to know. I was like, if our doctors can't even nurture us at a tongue, right? Like, no wonder why the rest of us don't understand this. And as a facilitator, I've taught classes and all sorts of stuff over the years. I was like, it isn't because our friends and family are malice. It's because they've never haven't been taught, and because they know that the words matter. They say nothing at all because they're afraid they're gonna say the wrong word. And you and I both know that grief is a hot mess of emotions. And how you feel one day may be completely different than the next. And so what somebody says to you one day may be appropriate and may not be appropriate the next. Right? And so it's a landmine, and it can be really detrimental. And I guarantee any griever that's listening to this right now has lost friends or family because the wrong thing was said or nothing was said at the wrong time. And that's tragic.

[A]

And I think the nothing being said is huge. And I know that I have. You know. And honestly, even before Jake died, when he became sick, there was someone that was really huge in my life. Like, honestly, it was his godmother. Godmother. And she didn't know what to say or do when all of a sudden, we were in the hospital for 117 days, and it took me years to sort of. I don't want to say forgive, but, like, get over that. Because I was like, how can you be silent and disappear now? And, you know, the relationship is over. It is what it is. But I think that the silence almost more, you know, saying the wrong thing. You. You still have the opportunity to say, like, hey, sorry, that hit wrong. I don't. You know, you can talk about it. This is uncomfortable.

[B]

And I stuck my foot in my mouth. Like, you can make a joke about it, right?

[A]

Yeah. I was gonna say you can have a laugh about it at some point.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The silence is like a forever barrier almost. Yeah, I think.

[B]

And the difference between silence, if you just don't talk to the person and don't connect with them, you can sit beside somebody and be silent, and the presence means something. And people don't really realize that. They don't realize they're uncomfortable with silence. But if you were to say, you know, I don't know what to say. I don't have the words. And I just don't want you to be alone because you're important to me. Can I bring a tea over or a coffee? And can we just sit? And if you want to talk, talk. But if you don't, I just. If you don't want to be alone, I'd like to be with you.

[A]

It's so beautiful. And it's. I mean, I hate to say it, but it's so easy if you start thinking about it that way, because I think you're 100% right. People don't know what to say, so they say nothing. And then it creates this divide or this, like, I don't even know what the word is.

[B]

But being present makes such a big difference. I mean, I have friends who are like, well, I don't live in the same city sending a text with an emoji hug or, I'm thinking of you today. You don't need to unpack the world in a text message. You can just be like, I want you to know you're on my mind today. I'm holding you in my thoughts. Or if you're a prayer person, you're in my prayers or whatever. But being present can make such a difference. And for me, and I think a lot of grievers would say, there are people in your life who you thought were going to show up at those darkest days. And you actually often end up with an angel. Somebody who you didn't think was going to be there, somebody who you didn't expect would be there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And when you're lucky enough to get those angels, be grateful for them because they've been sent to help you at a time when you deserve and need the help.

[A]

Do you feel like you have become one of those grief angels for people? I know that I like if there's a Loss in my community or if someone loses a child. Like, I very much try to reach out and be that person, especially in the beginning, because I know that that wasn't the world that I was in. And I love what you said about emojis. Cause I do think sometimes people freeze. Right? Cause they're like, I don't know, you know? And I love the example of, like, I can just come and sit with you. I can just. We can turn on reality TV and sit together. We can have a tea, we can do whatever. But I also like the emoji. Right. Like, I've said to you don't need to tell me how sorry you are for my loss. You can send a heart emoji and that, that means that Jake was in your heart for a minute. And that will put a smile on my face.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like it's that easy. Like it's not.

[B]

Well, and I mean, the hard part is, is we've been taught to say I'm sorry for your loss. Which, I. I'll be honest with you, is one of the stupidest statements I think is ever said.

[A]

I say it all the time. So I'm actually glad that you're saying this because I want to, like, figure out. Yeah.

[B]

So there's a reason why I don't like it. One is, I'm sorry for your loss. So it's you, you have to hold it right where we could hold it. And then I want you to think about it from a six year old's perspective. If you're writing a sympathy card to your friend who lost her mom, and a six year old comes up and says, but why? Why are you sorry? What did you do to her mom? Right. We apologize for when we do something wrong. And so unless you killed your friend's mom, why are you sorry? And so it doesn't acknowledge anything. Like, I want you to think about how many times you've heard, I'm sorry for your loss. And when you say it, is there any form of connection that can happen after? No.

[A]

It's always just like a thank you.

[B]

You purse your lips and say thank you. And so for me, I say, losing a bird is a significant loss if it was one that you treasured. And my heart goes out to you. I acknowledge their pain. Right. And I let them know that I'm connecting to them. And then I might say, do you want to tell me about your dog? Or do you want to tell me about your friend or your sibling or whoever? I acknowledge that the pain is there.

[A]

You break These things down. So I want to say, like, common sense wise, but it's obviously not common sense because we've been stuck in these cycles forever. And I've said this, Like, I have said I'm sorry for your loss, knowing that when I'm on the receiving end of it, I say weird stuff back. I'll be like, thank you. Or of course. Or like, because you're right, it doesn't mean anything. It's just we're programmed to say.

[B]

That's right up there with saying thank you for your service.

[A]

Okay. Like, it's really funny.

[B]

I'm Canadian, but I spend a lot of time in the US and so I see service people, and when I'm getting in an elevator or something, I'm like, hey, thanks for doing what you do. And they're like. It shudders them because they're so used to what they're normally hearing. And when you change it up, they're like, oh, you see me? It's not just monotonous, Right? And we, like, robotic almost.

[A]

Like, we say these things because we've been trained to say them, but by saying them so repetitively, they virtually mean nothing.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

To the person. The person saying them, or to the person hearing them.

[B]

Yeah. So let me guess how I'm gonna add this one too, because you'll love this one is. Oh, my gosh, you're so strong.

[A]

Oh, that one would kill me.

[B]

I'm like, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Or I can't imagine. Oh, I. Especially with child loss. I feel like I'm like, no, but you can imagine because most moms do. Like, you worry about shit all the time, so you can imagine it.

[B]

I can say that because I don't have children. I can't imagine because I don't understand that deep connection. But the reality is, it means that you're not willing to empathize with me. You're not willing to say, your life sucks right now, and I want to be able to embrace you and hold you up at a time rather than break you down.

[A]

And love Armstrong has the same to me. It makes me feel like I'm the elephant in the room. It makes me feel like everybody else is grateful they're not me. And that, you know. And that's a terrible feeling.

[B]

Well, it's not even that for me. I was. And I felt anything but strong. I felt completely shattered inside. And so I was like, do you even see me? Like I'm broken. And so I took off the strong badge, and I don't say it now any anymore. I say, I see how much courage it takes for you to get out of bed today. I see how much courage it's taken you to get through day by day.

[A]

And I acknowledge much more accurate.

[B]

I acknowledge the action that they are doing. Because we all have had days where we're like, I'm not getting out of

[A]

bed a hundred percent. And the strong. Like, you're so strong. It's such a false word. Because, like, correct. You don't feel strong in many of those moments and days. But it's also not a real. I don't know, like, strong what. I can, you know, bench press. Like, strong what, like, you know, I mean, like, it's. I don't think it's accurate, but I. You know, there's so many of these. And you even go to, like, I don't know, the pharmacy or the card store, and you look at these cards. And I have stopped buying sympathy cards because the. It's one big one of these sayings on repeat, right?

[B]

Like, heather, let's start a new business of appropriate, appropriate sympathy cards. And I also think that there also needs to be some humor ones. Because one of the things that people fail to realize is that humor can help 100%. You know, I mean, while the guys were working on Mike in the driveway, my neighbor, we lived in a cul de sac. And so one of my best friends, his son came out because there's three fire trucks and an ambulance and a police car. And I was like, go get your dad. I'm going to need a hat. I'm going to need somebody to drive me to the hospital. And his dad is my best friend, and he's just, like, holding me. They're working on Mike. And then, because Mike was a serviceman, I went in the police car. I didn't need a ride. So they dealt with my groceries. Anyway, the next day he showed up. Cause he knows I'm a sprinkler. And he showed up with the Costco case of really good Kleenex, not flowers. He's like, I know you're gonna cry a lot. And I know your mom's here. She's going to cry a lot, like. And it was a good. Like, it was a good laugh because it was like, you could have showed up at the casserole, like, or the lasagna. But he was like, no, let's have a laugh about it. And it was a reminder that, like, it felt good. It was a good laugh, not a phony laugh, right? And it was memorable, right? Like, I can seven Years later, still talk about it.

[A]

You can still. And you can smile over it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I also something you said there, sort of like, you know, they dealt with your groceries like, Jon, I mean, like, those are the hands on things that I feel like I remember in those, especially in those immediate days, like, who just showed up, you know, to your point, who didn't say, what can I do? Like, I had one friend who doesn't even live in this area anymore. I've since lost touch. And we were acquaintances. Like we were. Some of our kids were sort of friends, but you know what I mean? Like, occasionally we'd be in the same group and she showed up at my house, I wanna say, like, I don't know, a week after it happened or something with like a Starbucks and was like, let's just go for a walk. And I was like, okay. You know, And I. She had asked someone what my coffee drink was and we just walked. And I don't even think we said five words, but I got fresh air. I felt better. It was just easy. Another friend who again, wasn't a close one. It's interesting because you had said earlier, like, it's not always. Yeah, the angels that just kind of show up, you know, just, just called and was like, I'm. I. I heard. What can I do? I can't believe it. Like, and it was, it was literally that morning. Like, it was. We had been in the hospital, I don't know until like midnight or something. And it was like 7am but again, someone. That call stood out because I was like, she's not afraid to call. She's not like listening to the. Like, she's, she's shocked. And she called and I just remember. And then I think she brought over a tray of sandwiches, which was very random but also sort of great because the last thing on anyone's mind at

[B]

that time was food.

[A]

Was, was food and people were showing up. Right? Like, people just show up. And so I was like, have a sandwich. But I love that they took your groceries in. Right? Like, I mean, there's just those things where, like, you don't even know how to put one foot in front of the door, like in front of each other. So you need people to just sweep in and do stuff.

[B]

Yeah, and that's exactly it. It's show up. It's say, hey, like, you know, do you need your lawn mow? Do you want help raking the leaves?

[A]

Can I do laundry? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I mean, at some point somebody took down my Christmas tree. Like, you know, I Mean, yeah, I have no idea when. I don't. I can tell you. I don't remember when, but it was there one day and gone another. I have no idea. Right? But it's like that kind of stuff. It was like, it was easy. And even the neighbor with the Kleenex, because we lived in a complex garbage, went to a group place and he was like, because I know you have lots of company and they're gonna need the code and all that stuff. He's like, leave your garbage on the doorstep. We'll pick it up every time we walk by. That's.

[A]

That's amazing. Yeah, it's that simple. So I think that can be like the biggest takeaway of some of these conversations, right? Like, it's. Cause it's not so much just show up. I mean, exactly. That's exactly what it is. And show up in the ways. And it's hard to, like, kind of do the flip. Like, you know, what would you want in this situation? Because I think that's too hard. But what would you just want in general? Like, what do you need? Like, it's not these.

[B]

It's not even that. It's what. What can you give?

[A]

What can you give?

[B]

Don't show up in a way that you can't. So if it's your kids go to the same school, hey, can I drive your kids to school? Or, you know, they got. They're on the same sport team. How would I bring them home? Like, because what happens is, is you over commit yourself, and then you don't show up. And that loss feels really big because there's like, if. If I had somebody, I'd ask somebody, something broke in the house, and it was something Mike would have been able to fix. I. There was blue tasks and pink tasks in my house, right? And so I was like, I got a blue task and I'm. I need help with this. And he kept saying, yeah, I'll come over. I'll come over. And it was like eight weeks later. And I was just like, it was frustrating because I needed it fixed. But also know that don't assume that somebody else is taking care of it. So when I say show up, lots of times people will be like, oh, there's people that are closer to them than I am. So I don't need to. And don't assume because, like, for me, four of my closest friends that were part, like, Mike and I hung out with two other couples. I was evidence to them that Mike was gone. I was a reminder to them. And so they didn't stay in touch. And so everybody thought that they had surrounded me and he wasn't, they weren't there. And so three, four months later when I bump into them and they're like, oh, well, you must be hanging out with so and so. And I'm like, I haven't talked to them in months. And they're like, I would have called more if I'd known. Don't assume. Show up.

[A]

I mean, those are such good lessons in general. Right. But like, I think you touched on something else that is huge. It's those like, I don't know if the official term is this or not, but those like secondary losses around your big loss. Right. Like, so you, you're struggling with losing your husband, but then your entire, like your, your unit disappears.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's. Yes, difficult too. And, and a different kind of difficult. But it's. I would imagine it's. Yeah, it's just. And don't assume. And I. And those are, you know, it's, it's so much of this is like words to live by, even if you take the grief component out of. Right? Like, don't commit to things you can't actually do. Don't just say platitudes or whatever. Like, don't just say sayings because they've been said for a zillion years. Like, and don't assume, like, you know what I mean? Like, I think so much of this has been over complicated for generations. Right? Like, it's like, it's just like, be a good human, do what you can do. Think about what's meaningful. I mean, I love your example, right? Like, don't over commit because don't say you're going to. Especially when someone has had a loss. Like, don't add to it because. And you referenced it like some days are. Some days one thing is huge. The other day it's not. And it's not personal. I guess that my other thing would be like, I felt like I had people who. And even I had an experience this past fall that it was kind of when people become so uncomfortable with something around your loss and in this situation. I don't know, a friend of mine, we were talking about Jake and one of my dearest friends, she was like, wait, who's Jake? And like she wasn't paying attention to the conversation. Like it was just one of these. And like I, and I. And because I could be kind of, you know, sarcastic or whatever. I said my dead son. And, and everyone else was like, my husband was like, okay, settle Down. But, like, it was all. We all kind of giggled and whatever, and she just lost her mind and she felt, like, horrible. But. But then the whole thing about it was then I was, like, chasing her to the bathroom and helping her, and I'm like, wait, wait, wait. Why am I now, like, when the griever has to become the consoler? Because the person is uncomfortable with something. And I don't know that that's the best explanation of it, but I think that's a real thing. That happens, too, and it never goes away. I feel like I can't tell you how many times I'm like, I'm trying to make the person feel better over my son being dead.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that sucks.

[B]

Especially because when they're new in your world, when they didn't know Jake. Right. And they didn't know Mike. And that's another. When you get introduced to somebody's person that is not on this planet anymore, the general question you get, sorry for your loss, and, how did they die? And unless you know how to bring somebody back from the dead, that is not information you need to know. I love them.

[A]

Well, no, no, no, no. Because I honestly. I just wrote a piece that is going to be published in Huffington Post. It got accepted. And it's about that. Exactly. I met someone, or actually a friend of a friend. Her husband died, and everyone was really nosy about it, so they would say, well, what happened? How did he die? And she just started answering, it doesn't matter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it doesn't matter. And I love that because, you know, in the last couple months, I have adopted that a little bit, because it doesn't matter. Unless you are capable of bringing Jake back From the dead 15 years later, what does it matter? He's gone. It doesn't matter how. It doesn't matter why. And whether intended or not, those questions have judgment. It's judgment or.

[B]

And it forces you back to the hardest day of your life. Yeah. Why do. Why do we ask people how somebody died instead of asking how their person lived? I don't want to remember the day he died. I want to remember his legacy. I want that to carry on. And so I ask, like, may I ask your person's name? I'd love to know one of your favorite memories. And I want people when people. I met a gentleman on a flight, actually. I'm going to see him next week. And I'm an event planner by day. And so I run this event for three days. I was exhausted. I'm on a plane. I'm Ready to have my nap and watch Netflix. And he comes down, he's like, hi, my name's Roger and we're going to be sitting together. And I was like, oh, my Lord.

[A]

Oh, Roger.

[B]

And Roger and I had the best conversation on that flight and we've become very good friends. And he told me about his life and marrying his wife who was sitting on the other side of the plane. He asked really good questions as a retired hospital pharmacist and he was an amazing listener. And so I don't look like a widow because widows are supposed to be gray haired and old and I'm not one of those. And just so you know, all widows don't look old. There's some that are younger than me.

[A]

And then.

[B]

But at the end of the conversation, he gave me the best compliment, which was, I wish I met your mic. He sounds like he is an amazing man. And if I could teach people more about what to say and not say so they could give that compliment to somebody who's lost, somebody they treasured,

[A]

that

[B]

my days, like my life would be complete. That is so important. It is the best compliment to give somebody.

[A]

It gave me chills when you said it. I mean, it's so. And it's just flipping the switch. It's exactly, it's. Let's not focus on the darkest day. Let's focus on the life. Let's focus on all of the things that matter. The legacy. Do you, and this is kind of a corny question, but I'm going to ask it. I have said, you know, what I do now, like running Jake's help from heaven and doing this show feels so much like what I have been meant to do. Like, I just, I, I struggle with how much I enjoy it because it comes from my loss, 100%. So it's. In some ways I just, I'm like, this is Jake's legacy as much as. Because it's what I do. And sometimes I struggle with that because I'm like, I'd rather not do any of this. Be less fulfilled, be less kind, be less compassionate and have my son with me. Like, if I'm being honest, do you feel like the work that you're doing in these conversations and these takeaways for people, like, is this Mike's legacy in some way or do you not even associate it?

[B]

It's a mix. It's really interesting because I'm in the process of writing a fictional book, but it's based on Mike's character and I have a childhood dream to write A book. I've co authored a lot of books, and I've compiled books, and I've helped publish books, but I don't have a book that solely has my name on it. And that is a dream I've had since I was five. And so even though Mike is gone, he's still helping me make my dreams come true, which is how he loved me and how he loves me still. And I listened to one of your episodes last night, and I forget who it was with, but you guys were talking about mediums and kind of connecting. And I'm very connected to Mike, and I know I'm supposed to do this work to help legacies carry on. I used to only just tell people. I teach people what to say and not say to somebody who's grieving, and I'd stop it there. And now I say so that we can carry on the legacies of those we've lost. There has to be the reason why. And, like, it isn't just for the people here. It's for the world. And when I connect with Mike on a spiritual level, it's almost like we're paving this path and we put these blocks down. And the image I actually got was every time we put a block down in the path, it would go golden. And then somebody else went to put the path up a block down, and the whole path went dark. And it just told me that him and I are doing this together. Yeah. And so, I mean, him and I were magic together on this planet. I've never laughed so much in my life. I would go and help people. He was the big kid. He was 24 years older than me. And so he would go and play with the kids, and I'd go and have the intense conversations, and then we'd both reconnect and go, how do we make a difference here? How do we make an impact? How do we help? And that was. We were just dynamite that way in helping people, and we still get to do it.

[A]

When you're talking about being connected and you're talking about the relationships that we continue, even though they're physically not with us and how, you know, And I'm a strong believer in all of that. So when we changed the show to be recorded in my home and all of that, like, the couch I'm sitting on is one of the only pieces of furniture. It's on my third floor, and it is from the house. You know, Jake lived in this house, but he also lived in the house that we were in before. This couch is like I am so connected to Jake. Like, on this couch, I fed him, I napped with him, I fell asleep with him. His brother, you know, would smother him with love and hugs. And I sit here when I record the show very purposefully because it's my reminder of even though he's been gone 15 plus years, we're here, we're together, like, and it's just not. It's not just the memories. It's like the spirit or. I don't know exactly. It's the connection, and the connection keeps going. And I. So I'm always, you know, never quite sure of the right wording. But I love that it's not just what we're doing for people here who are grieving, but it's how are we keeping this connection? Because it's so powerful and in my opinion, so strong and true. Like, it's invital. Like I need it well.

[B]

And you know that when you first lose somebody, the loss is significant. I always say it feels like a massive boulder, and it's heavy and it's awkward and it's exhausting to carry. And as time passes, pieces that boulder break off. As you move through the emotions or as you get more experience in life, like doing other things and moving forward, that boulder becomes smaller and smaller. And so it doesn't feel as significant all the time. And so now it's like a rock that you just carry in your pocket. And sometimes that rock is really heavy on a. On a weird day that or a significant day. But when we look at it going, it's still a part of us. And when we move from the loss and into that finding meaning of love. And instead of saying, I miss Mike, I say, I love Mike. And I really lean into that love piece because that's what got me through the darkest days, like those early days, weeks and months when I thought I was going downhill, the way that I got out was the. I was grateful I had him because. And love makes such a big difference. And when we can focus on how much we still love our people, it can help so much. And it can help the people around us to be able to lean in. Right? Because we all had the people walk across the street because they're like, I don't know. I don't want to talk about that.

[A]

The look away. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the love is. The love gives you so much more grace than the loss.

[A]

Heidi, I have found this conversation, and when we spoke before, but so helpful personally. And I know that it is just you make it so easy to think about things in a way that are helpful instead of, you know, it's such a. I don't even know what the words are, but you have made it, like, just a flip in the switch of how we think about things. And if anybody is listening and wondering, like, I just, I love that you've given them pause, right? Like, instead of saying, I'm sorry for your loss because it's what my parents said and it's what their parents said and it's what everybody says, take a pause and there's so many other things to say. Instead of saying, how did they die? Say, what was their name? You know, I'm so, like. Like, there are just ways to do this. And I. I'm so grateful for you for being on the show and for us connecting because I think your work is so important. And for those listening who want to dive deeper, can you share? Like, what's the. Like, I know you have a website like, but what is the best way to kind of follow you into social media?

[B]

Heidi Dunston. Or lean into grief. I believe lots of times when we feel like we're supposed to step away because it's uncomfortable, we're meant to lean in. Grief is connection, and it deserves to be witnessed. So follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram, or heidiedunston.ca. i offer Master classes for free. I really want people to feel confident that they can have a conversation with somebody and feel that they've got something to say that will actually be helpful. And that always makes me feel good. So if you're like, hey, listen to this. And the next day, my neighbor's mom died, and I actually felt equipped to have that conversation. Send me a message. I love hearing that. That's why I do what I do.

[A]

Heidi, this has been a wonderful conversation. I'm so glad that we have connected. I hope we stay in touch. Thank you for being a part of the show.

[B]

Thank you for having me, and thanks for doing the work you do. We all deserve to grieve with Grace together.

[A]

Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it to see you next time on A Place of Yes.