I Traveled to Guatemala to Honor My Late Daughter | Losing Her to a Rare Disease

Summary

A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast Episode: I Traveled to Guatemala to Honor My Late Daughter | Losing Her to a Rare Disease Host: Bright Sighted Guest: Jessica Fine Release Date: March 20, 2025

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Introduction and Reunion

In this heartfelt episode, host Heather welcomes back Jessica Fine, author of Family Dreams and Broken Genes and host of her own podcast, I Don't Know How You Do It. Their previous conversation delved into shared experiences of child loss and rare diseases, creating a deep sense of understanding and connection.

Quotes:

• Heather [01:08]: “We have child loss, we have rare disease...we can laugh and have joy.”
• Jessica Fine [01:04]: “I'm so happy to be invited back. This is like, encore. Yay.”

Journey to Guatemala

Jessica recounts her recent nine-day trip to Guatemala, a country deeply significant to her family as they adopted their three children from there. Unlike their previous visits, this trip was different—they explored beyond Guatemala City and immersed themselves in the culture and landscapes, providing a richer experience.

Key Points:

• Previous trips focused mainly on business aspects of adoption.
• This visit aimed to reconnect more fully with Guatemala.
• Opportunity to honor their late daughter, Dalia, in her homeland.

Honoring Dalia: Traditional Mayan Fire Ceremony

A pivotal moment of the trip was performing a traditional Mayan fire ceremony to honor Dalia. This ritual is a profound way to offer respect to loved ones who have passed, encompassing various intentions such as health, business, or remembrance.

Quotes:

• Jessica Fine [04:45]: “One of the things that was really important to us is we wanted to do something to honor Dalia's memory while we were in Guatemala.”
• Jessica Fine [05:37]: “I am not much of a crier. But we were all incredibly, incredibly moved.”

Details of the Ceremony:

• Conducted by Priestess Juana, dressed in traditional garb and speaking the Kichi language.
• Involved offerings like Coca Cola and whiskey, symbolizing the loved ones’ favorite beverages.
• Priestess Juana interpreted the smoke and fire patterns to convey messages from Dalia.

Impact: The ceremony felt authentic and powerful, bridging cultural and linguistic gaps, and allowing the family to feel Dalia's presence.

Quotes:

• Jessica Fine [06:00]: “It felt so authentic... All of us really felt Dalia's presence.”
• Heather [07:58]: “I am almost, like, speechless because, like, I literally have chills.”

Spiritual Connections and Medium Experiences

The conversation deepens into the realm of spiritual connections and the authenticity of communicating with lost loved ones. Jessica shares her skepticism overcoming experience with mediums, contrasting Heather’s fear and hesitation despite her own impactful encounter.

Quotes:

• Jessica Fine [10:06]: “What she was saying felt very much to us, like she was having this conversation with Dalia.”
• Heather [12:11]: “And Jake has been gone 14 years... how much of it was that we knew we were in Dalia's homeland?”

Personal Accounts:

• Jessica Fine describes a powerful session with a medium after her father’s death, where the medium provided accurate and heartfelt messages that even her skeptic husband found believable.
• Heather shares her resistance to using mediums but expresses a growing desire to connect with her late son, Jake, encouraging mutual exploration with Jessica.

Quotes:

• Jessica Fine [12:10]: “During that conversation... he just kept saying... incredible.”
• Heather [13:26]: “I am so ready to do it now. Like, I feel like, you know, that.”

Mutual Grief and Connection

Both Heather and Jessica explore the depths of their grief and the unique bonds they share through their loss. They discuss dreams and visions related to their children, contemplating the nature of consciousness after death and the possibility of ongoing connections.

Quotes:

• Angelic Dreams: Heather recounts dreams where Jake communicates peace, leading her to contemplate visiting mediums.
• Jessica Fine [25:24]: “I have dreams where Dalia's, like, walking and running and that kind of thing.”

Shared Reflections: They acknowledge the challenges of coping with grief, the fear of confronting painful emotions, and the comfort found in shared understanding and support.

Cultural Reflections on Grief and Celebration

The discussion shifts to cultural expressions of grief, particularly contrasting Mayan rituals with those in Argentina and New Orleans. They admire the vibrancy and joy embedded in certain cultural practices, which differ markedly from more somber Western traditions.

Quotes:

• Jessica Fine [26:42]: “New Orleans is the place that most feels to me like a different country... a lot of spiritual practices happening.”
• Heather [28:12]: “There is something so great about the idea of it being joyous....”

Personal Anecdotes:

• Jessica recalls her mother's funeral, highlighting the stark contrast between the monochromatic mourning attire and the vibrant presence of two women in white, symbolizing beauty and vibrancy amidst solemnity.
• Heather shares her experiences in Argentina and New Orleans, noting the celebratory approach to honoring the dead.

Exploring the Afterlife and Consciousness

Towards the end, Heather and Jessica delve into philosophical questions about the afterlife and the persistence of consciousness after death. They ponder whether consciousness exists beyond the physical realm and how cultural practices reflect these beliefs.

Quotes:

• Jessica Fine [30:23]: “Does the consciousness survive bodily death?”
• Heather [30:51]: “I love that you had that experience with Dalia where you felt it was her and it gave you that feeling.”

Future Conversations: They anticipate ongoing discussions about their beliefs and experiences, emphasizing the importance of remaining open to possibilities beyond death.

Conclusion and Continuing the Journey

In wrapping up, Heather expresses gratitude to Jessica for sharing her profound experiences and insights. Both acknowledge the ongoing nature of their grief journeys and the potential for future explorations into spiritual connections and healing.

Quotes:

• Heather [32:35]: “If we can get over the hurdle of just being totally closed off and at least open ourselves a little bit to the possibility, that's where the interesting things begin to happen.”
• Jessica Fine [32:47]: “Thank you for letting me talk about all this stuff.”

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Key Takeaways

• Cultural Rituals as Healing: Engaging in traditional ceremonies can offer deep emotional and spiritual healing for those grappling with loss.
• Authentic Connections: Genuine experiences, even in foreign settings, can bridge gaps between grief and remembrance.
• Open Dialogue: Discussing spiritual beliefs and experiences openly with others who understand can facilitate profound personal growth and healing.
• Hope and Continuity: Maintaining a connection with lost loved ones through memories, dreams, and cultural practices can provide solace and hope.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jessica Fine [00:00]: “It was so powerful. All of us really felt Dalia's presence...”
• Jessica Fine [04:45]: “We wanted to do something to honor Dalia's memory while we were in Guatemala.”
• Heather [07:58]: “I am almost, like, speechless because, like, I literally have chills.”
• Jessica Fine [12:10]: “That meeting... was one of the most powerful hours I've ever had in my Life.”
• Heather [28:12]: “There is something so great about the idea of it being joyous.”
• Jessica Fine [30:23]: “Does the consciousness survive bodily death?”

Conclusion

This episode of A Place of Yes beautifully intertwines personal grief with cultural exploration, offering listeners a profound look into how honoring a loved one’s memory can transcend cultural boundaries and foster deep spiritual connections. Heather and Jessica’s conversation serves as a beacon of hope and understanding for those navigating similar paths of loss and healing.

Transcript

[Jessica Fine]

What was so amazing about it was here we were in a place that was very foreign to us, with a woman who was speaking a language we had never heard before, that we didn't understand a word of doing rituals we had never experienced. And the whole thing felt so authentic. It really. It was so powerful. All of us really felt Dahlia's presence, felt like what she was saying felt very much to us, like she was having this conversation with Dalia.

[Heather]

Welcome to A Place of Yes, a podcast about how I moved through my darkest hour. And for me, that was in channeling my grief into good. Welcome to the show. So I am so excited today to welcome back Jessica Fine, who. Who was a guest on season one. She is the author of a memoir of family dreams and broken Genes, and she's the host of her own podcast called I Don't Know how youw Do It. Welcome back, Jessica. I'm so happy to have you here.

[Jessica Fine]

I'm so happy to be invited back. This is like, encore. Yay.

[Heather]

And what I'm super excited about is that, you know, our first conversations, we explored all the things we have in common, right? Like we have child loss, we have rare disease. We have this belief that we live with this horrible grief, but that we also can laugh and have joy and, you know, all of those things. So I feel like when I first connected with you, I was like, finally someone out there that understands me. I love that. So I encourage anybody who's listening, who has not listened to the season one episode to go back and do so. And the topic I want to talk with you is about your recent trip to Guatemala. So can you share about your time in Guatemala?

[Jessica Fine]

Yes, absolutely. And thank you for inviting me to speak about that, because it's still so fresh in my mind and was so meaningful that I'm like, yes, I want to talk about it. So just to back up in case anybody didn't hear the other episode, my husband and I adopted our three children from Guatemala. So Guatemala holds a very special place in our hearts. We had traveled together to Guatemala five times, but each time was for baby business. Let's call it that. So we had really only been, with the exception of a couple of hours, in Antigua, which, by the way, is not Antigua, the Caribbean island, which a lot of people have asked me. So that's why I say that we had only been in Guatemala City, and that is not seeing the country. We had not been back since we brought our youngest son home in 2007. So it was. And we had always told the kids as soon as you're ready, let us know, we'll go. We wanted them to be the ones to say, we want to do this now. Meanwhile, in 2022, our middle child Dalia died. And that was obviously, as you said, the topic of our past conversation from a rare disease called Merv syndrome. So here we are coming up on the three year anniversary, and our other two kids said they wanted to go to Guatemala. So we went to Guatemala for nine days and we saw a lot of the country and just learned so much, so much more than we had ever learned in all of the previous trips. Because, of course, our focus was so single minded. One of the things that was really important to us is we wanted to do something to honor Dalia's memory while we were in Guatemala. Kind of thought through several different ways that could look ultimately decided to do a traditional Mayan fire ceremony, which is something that is done in the Mayan population not only to make an offering for a relative or a loved one who has died. It can also be done for somebody's health or business reasons. I mean, there's a lot of different reasons why you might do a traditional fire ceremony. We arranged for this to happen, and it was amazing. We were in a place called Chichi Castanego. And first of all, I will say that the cemeteries in Guatemala are stunning. So they start off underground, but it's very small space, so they end up going above ground. And they are so colorful because they will paint whatever color the person's favorite color was. And they're awesome, beautiful. And they just the total opposite here, which is like somber gray stone, you know, there. I mean, it's this burst of color. It's magnificent. Adjacent to this cemetery is a place called Bhuktan, which is where this world and the next world meet, is what.

[Heather]

Is kind of like.

[Jessica Fine]

And it's really like just a gigantic lot with different areas where offerings can be done around the lot. Now, these are done by a priest or a priestess. And you can see who they are because they're wearing very traditional garb, including a hat that only. A specific hat that only the priest or the priestess are wearing. It was interesting because we got there well before the priestess. We were meeting and we were watching and seeing some of the other ceremonies taking place. And it was very interesting. We had a translator with us and we saw this one guy pour a priest pour Coca Cola on the altar. And then alcohol, like, I don't know, it was whiskey or something, and learned that what they'll do often is Take, like, a drink that their person loved and pour it, because it's all going up in the smoke, in theory, right to the spirits.

[Heather]

Oh, that's. Wow. That's. That's. I am speechless almost. That's so cool.

[Jessica Fine]

Yeah, it was so interesting. So our priestess was named Priestess Juana. Mayan dialects, it's interesting because they're actually 22 different languages. So a lot of times people can't even speak to each other. It's not even like they necessarily have that much in common in the language. But in any event. So priestess want to speak a language language called Kichi. It's very well known there and likely is the language Dalia would have heard as a baby, because Dalia was six months when we brought her home. Okay, so Priestess Juana arrives. She's an older woman, and it was very interesting because, first of all, she arrived in a tuk tuk, which is a three wheeled vehicle that's open on the sides, and they're all over in Guatemala. She didn't know anything really about our story ahead of time. So in any event, the first thing that she does is, is she comes and she prepares the altar. And so the first thing is they put sugar around the out. Oh, no. First you put flower petals around the outside and then sugar, because you want to have something sweet going up. And then all of these candies and incense and then candles. And then for the next 45 minutes, she's chanting in kichi. She's lit the. You know, this whole offering is inflamed. And what was so interesting is that what she is doing is she is reading the direction of the smoke, the direction of the fire, the shape of the ashes, to get her messages from the spirits and from Dalia. And she is then sharing them with our translator. And we were getting some messages. You know, what was so amazing about it was here we were in a place that was very foreign to us, with a woman who was speaking a language we had never heard before, that we didn't understand a word of doing rituals we had never experienced. And the whole thing felt so authentic. You know, what was interesting to me is that Dalia had a very traditional Jewish funeral, and as did every member of my family who's died. And yet this one, where it was all so foreign to us, felt so powerful and so authentic and did not feel performative. And it just. It really. It was so powerful. All of us really felt Dahlia's presence, felt like what she was saying felt very much to us, like she was having this Conversation with Dahlia, I mean, I'm.

[Heather]

I'm almost, like, speechless because, like, I literally have chills.

[Jessica Fine]

I am not much of a crier. But we were all incredibly, incredibly moved. Both of our other kids said this just really felt right. It was. It was like a missing piece, something that kind of needed to happen, and we didn't even know it. And it's really interesting. You know, we were so in the moment, and it was so powerful. And I do wonder, if we were to do other ceremonial rituals in other cultures, would they be as powerful, half as powerful? How much of it was that we knew we were in Dahlia's homeland? I don't know. I mean, I think that that's a really interesting thing to delve into.

[Heather]

I mean, I think both of those things are huge. Because to think. Think about, for her first six months, she was most likely hearing that language in that country. Like, there has to be, you know, depending how far you lean into these things. Right. Like, when Jake first died, I was reading all kinds of books about afterlife or multiple lives, and I got really wrapped up into this idea. One of the books I read was kind of like, sometimes you're so connected to people, and it's because, you know, 400 years ago, you were friends or you were animals that were all. You know, and all of these types.

[Jessica Fine]

Of things, your souls were connected.

[Heather]

Your souls were somehow connected. And prior to Jake dying, I never gave that an ounce of thought. But when I read those things, I really thought there was a lot to it. And there was this whole piece, too, about, like, how kids choose their parents. And again, I don't know. I've got to think that you being there in that specific place, with that specific language had to make it more powerful for you and for her, I would think.

[Jessica Fine]

And I love the idea of kids choosing their parents because one of the things I've always said as an adoptive mom is we all chose each. Each other. Yeah.

[Heather]

Which I think is. Is awesome. So when you guys went down, did you know you were going to be doing this, or did you get to Guatemala and say, oh, this experience. Like, this is an experience we can have? I arranged when you got that. Okay, you did.

[Jessica Fine]

So we knew we wanted to do something. In thinking about kind of what that something would be, this emerged as the right. The right thing.

[Heather]

And this is personal, so you don't have to answer this. But. But, like, what did Dalia say?

[Jessica Fine]

Well, it's quite lengthy because, as I was saying earlier, we didn't have a great method of Translation. There was a little bit of a language barrier. So actually, what I was able to do was to arrange for Juana to give a verbal download to her son Miguel, who actually speaks English. And so I worked on this for, like, a while when I got back, because I knew we were missing something. And then I got a very lengthy recording from him in English. So that was great. But the highlights were she. She was really happy that we were doing this and that, you know, she was not in pain and talking to us about what she wanted us to be focused on now and how she wanted us to feel now. And so for her, you know, she wanted us. My favorite thing, I'll tell you that she said, was that she wanted us to have crazy fun like we used to, you know? And so it was really beautiful.

[Heather]

That's amazing. And you just felt her like you knew it was her.

[Jessica Fine]

Yeah. It's interesting because I have seen a medium, so. And I've had different communications that are like, you know, I have totally got on deep dives of. Could they have known this? Is there any way that this is on record? Could they have figured this out? You know what I mean? All that kind of stuff. This wasn't that. Nothing they said was like, there's no way, but. But the feeling was so powerful. And, you know, one of the things that I think about is how much does it matter?

[Heather]

Because something is there, regardless of the.

[Jessica Fine]

Objective, is for you to feel the presence of your person.

[Heather]

This is something that. So my Jake's been gone 14 years. You know, in the very beginning, there were friends who were like, oh, I have a medium for you to see. Or, like, I have a lot of friends who have gone and had these experiences without even, like, a huge person that has died. You know, Like, I don't. I'm not. Well, I was gonna say I'm not scared of it. I absolutely am terrified of it, which is why I haven't done it. I think I would have gone for anybody else. Like, it's not the idea of it that scares me. It's the piece that it's my son that scares me.

[Jessica Fine]

That's so true.

[Heather]

And I don't know.

[Jessica Fine]

Well, I will tell you, I don't know how I would have responded had I not already gone when my father died. So I had seen a medium. And that meeting, which was an hour, was one of the most powerful hours I've ever had in my Life, and absolutely 100% had the most profound impact on me. What happened during that conversation, which he did not Even know I was present because it was my sister who did this phone thing with him and then made me dial in from this other phone. And so I was there, and he didn't even know I was there. I mean, maybe he did because he's a medium, so who knows?

[Heather]

But they know everything now. Yeah.

[Jessica Fine]

Yeah, right. But it was. It was incredible. And what he said, that there is absolutely no way he could have known. And the way he captured my father's personality, it was mind blowing. I mean, even my husband, who is the biggest skeptic, I recorded the whole thing, couldn't believe it when he heard it.

[Heather]

So that probably made it easier. Like, you know, I mean, like, I've just. I'm scared to do it the first time with Jake, and I'm like, this sounds so foolish even when I say it out loud, but I'm like, what if he is mad at me? What if he says something mean? What if it, like, makes me cry in a bad way? Like. And I don't live my life like that. You know what I mean? Like. But something about this seems so. Like, I feel so fragile about it.

[Jessica Fine]

They don't. They're not gonna say something that's gonna. I mean, I don't think that's their objective.

[Heather]

I want to do it. Like, I feel like after all this time, I'm ready to do it. Like, I feel like, you know, that.

[Jessica Fine]

We are totally gonna have to do it together.

[Heather]

Well, now you're in, like, now. Now you're not. Way out.

[Jessica Fine]

Right? I did see. God. Was it after? I can't remember if it was. No, I went to that. Back to that medium once with a friend.

[Heather]

The one that did your dad?

[Jessica Fine]

Yes. It was that same medium, and it. But it was like a group situation. Okay. So it was a room in a hotel, and there were a lot of people. And my friend has a son who was a classmate of Dalia's. And at this point, Dalia was going to a school that was for very intense medical complexities. And this is a nonverbal child in a wheelchair, as was Dalia at the time. And this medium got so confused because it was a room of, like, 15 people, and he start. And. And I think maybe there was even, like, somebody sitting in between us or something, because he starts talking to one of us, and then he's feeling who you know, and describing them, even though they were still. And. And her son still is alive. But, you know, you're. You're the mother. And then it's like. But wait, like, it Was just totally confused because he was like feeling it off of like.

[Heather]

Yep.

[Jessica Fine]

He's like getting signals crossed. I could just imagine if you and I were, you know, together, somebody be.

[Heather]

Like, wait, and maybe Dalia and Jake would be up there, like screwing with us. Yeah. So I definitely feel like I've been thinking about this, right. So I've been thinking about it a long time. I saw your experience, you know, what you had shared, and I was like, okay, this is sort of a sign, this other piece that is also happening. And actually just last night. And if I am tech savvy enough, I can pull it up. So a couple times Jake has come to me in dreams. Had not happened in a very long time. And then I would say maybe about a month ago or so, he came to me in this dream. And I. I used to write these letters to Jake. And this was. It was kind of like I decided it would be the final letter to Jake. But basically he was older. He just kept saying. And it kind of freaked me out. Cause I never heard his voice because he was non verbal. And like, I only ever know his, like, baby babbling. Like, I never knew a voice. But in this dream he was like, thank you, I'm good. Like, I'm fine, thank you. I woke up, like, and I put notes, like, on my phone. And then it was like, tell dad. Tell dad, thank you, I'm fine. It was Jake. Like, it just was unreal. So I've been thinking about it even more. Cause I was like, okay. Like, he's probably like, mom, get your shit together and come see me. Yeah, come see me. Cause like, here I am. Like I'm having to like bust through and do all the work. Last night I had another dream. He was in my dream last night. So this is what I wrote. Like, this doesn't make a ton of sense, but I remember it was like, unleash dreams. And I remember thinking that the dreams, like him coming to me in dreams is like unleashing all these fears I sort of have and like making peace with it. Because I think for a long time too, I worried. And I'm curious if you had any of this feeling, like that feeling of like, guilt and did I do enough and should I do more? And I don't live in that space, but I fall back on that space. So I wrote down Jake because he was a dream. He was a baby in the dream. And then Doris, that was my grandmother, and my grandmother passed away. Like, Jake had just gotten sick and she kind of was like, well, no, it's my time to go. And then my Uncle Bruce was, like, holding him and, like, resting with him. I don't know why. Like, that significance is weird. And he was just really.

[Jessica Fine]

Bruce alive or not?

[Heather]

He is alive. He doesn't have kids. And I think he was always really impacted by the, like, me losing my child, then my friends who are actually coming in tonight to visit. And then I wrote down Italy, so I have no idea what that is.

[Jessica Fine]

Oh, my God. Well, you better go to Italy and check it out.

[Heather]

So I was like, is Jake in Italy? I just feel like he is, like, knocking on my door, being like, come on, you're finally getting it. Like, you're starting to figure things out. Let's do this.

[Jessica Fine]

I love that. Yes, he is. I think he is. And I think that you have to go check it out and see. I think that you will leave actually feeling relief, you know, look, again. I'm not, like, some great believer. I don't know. I'm just trying to figure this stuff out myself.

[Heather]

Same way, right?

[Jessica Fine]

But I will tell you that I have had an experience after my sister died where there was a lot that I felt really guilty about and left that meeting feeling like a weight had been lifted.

[Heather]

I was afraid. Afraid of, like, those feelings of guilt and, you know, and for a long time, like, buried them or just got distracted or did it. And then all of a sudden, with all this talk I've done in the last year with the podcast and just sort of the shift, not that I ever hit it, it wasn't at the surface, and now it's just bubbling over, frankly, like, you know what I mean?

[Jessica Fine]

Like, that's really interesting, because I feel like I have talked a lot more and stepped into a lot more the whole grief space than I had, even with all the losses I've had. And even, like, the first year after losing Dalia, it has opened my. My mind and opened my eyes to just so much.

[Heather]

I agree. It makes me wonder sometimes, like, what took me so long?

[Jessica Fine]

I don't know. What's the point of that, right? Like, you're where you are now for a reason.

[Heather]

Do you feel, since you've had that experience with your boys and your husband, like, do you feel like you're more connected? I mean, that's a beautiful thing to share.

[Jessica Fine]

Yeah. I mean, we definitely came back. Like, I got kind of sick at the end of the trip, and then Rob had the stomach flu, and we've got this and that, you know, reality, you know? But I feel like what we share together there. And look what we share together in our lives. Like that is such a bond. I feel like we're connected in a way that nobody would understand because what we went through was so intense for so long.

[Heather]

It's just a different perspective than most of your son's friends probably have and that, you know, their families have. Like, I feel I see that with Ethan.

[Jessica Fine]

I'm curious, do you know how early on in meeting new people does he share his personal story?

[Heather]

So this is, this is actually really interesting. So Jake died December 8th. So he just had his sophomore year. But his freshman year, we had always done something around the weekend of December 8th. So like from that first year after Jake died, we would either go to like New York City or we would go to this place called Lake Placid. Sometimes we'd go to Montreal, like places that we used to travel to with Jake. And that winter of his freshman year was going to be the first time that, you know, we were not going to be together. And I was really not sure. Like, I was like, should we go see him? Should we leave him be? Like, I didn't know. And then Brian and I ended up going to Las Vegas. And I was like, so I booked us a trip to Vegas. And I remember saying, Ethan, you know for sure, if you want to be with us, I will put you there's airport, right at Syracuse. Like, come spend a day with us. We're gonna go to like a football game. Like, you're absolutely invited. Can make like a last minute decision. Like, this is special, but no pressure. Cause I wanted him to figure it out on his own. And then he said to me, he's like, I'm not gonna join you guys in Vegas. He's like, but I would love to go to New York City. Can I go with Leah, who was his girlfriend? And he's like, I just don't want to be in the dorms with everybody wondering what's wrong with me. And the ones who know. Like, he didn't want the ones who knew about Jake, like checking on him and he didn't want to have to explain how he was feeling. So that doesn't really answer your question, but it means, like, he was kind of. I don't think he's struggling with how to tell people. And when one of the things that he's very connected with, his girlfriend with, she has a sister with down syndrome. He was like, mom, guess what? Like, he was kind of excited about it, but I think that was this bond. So he told her right away, like when they were sort of just talking on the phone. And I think that just feels very safe to him.

[Jessica Fine]

Yes, I totally get that. And have something kind of similar on our end with that too.

[Heather]

Yeah, I would. I wonder, like, I know all his friends now know, but I wonder when that conversation happened.

[Jessica Fine]

Yeah, yeah. I think it's just such a weird and hard thing to bring up. I remember when I was in college, I had a friend who had told me he had had a baby sibling who had died. I remember being so ill equipped for that conversation. I kind of wish I could go back in time now and be the me that I am now. Because I remember, sure, I said something foolish or whatever, like I don't even remember what I said, but I do remember feeling uncomfortable, like I hadn't known anybody who had been in that situation before. And you know, now I look back and I'm like, my God, he must have really trusted me to have shared that with me, you know, I hope I was at least like not overtly offensive in any way.

[Heather]

It's interesting you say that because my freshman year, my roommate, her mother had committed suicide 18 months before our freshman year. And I remember like I had at that point in my life, like I was 17 years old, I had not really had anything like that even remotely close to it. I don't really remember how I responded, but I remember that we ended up. Her mom's name was Pam. She would be like, oh, Pam would be so pissed if she knew what I was doing or something. Like we would just always talk about her as though she was there. And it's funny because I look back and I was like, I love when people talk about Jake. I'm sure I screwed up a lot of things in that thing. But at least we said her name. Do you know what I mean?

[Jessica Fine]

At least we said her name.

[Heather]

At least I said her name. So I am wondering, does this make you want to go to mediums more? Like, do you want to do this all over again? Or was it so great that you're like Jeremy? Because sometimes when something good is. It's like, oh my God, I get greedy. It's like I want more. Other times you kind of know that that was like, end on a high note.

[Jessica Fine]

I'm very, very fascinated by all this stuff at this point. And I think it's because I have had so much loss. And when we look at how many. How every culture has its own way of communicating, honoring, etc, both every culture, every geography, all through time, you know, and so to me it's a great big question mark that, like this huge, brightly colored, like, your sweater, question mark that's just like, you know, check me out. Check me out. Because, you know, if there is some great thing to discover, I'd like to discover it. I mean, for myself, you know? I don't mean.

[Heather]

No, I know.

[Jessica Fine]

Yeah.

[Heather]

You are the one. Yeah.

[Jessica Fine]

Yeah, yeah, Right?

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Jessica Fine]

It's gonna be like, well, Einstein had the theory of relativity and that I discovered. You know what I mean? So I'm not talking about that. I just mean, like, I'm. I'm. My curiosity is. Is knocking.

[Heather]

I do. I think we have to do something, because I feel like I am so. I am so ready for it now. And I. So, like I said, I was always open for this stuff, right? Like, always, but not with Jake. And now I just feel like Jake is. He's like, come on, mom, let's do it.

[Jessica Fine]

I'm also interested in the way that we feel connected and honor their legacy in real, earthbound ways, and which you're doing in such a gorgeous, gorgeous way. And I. And I imagine that the work you're doing makes you feel more connected to Jake all the time.

[Heather]

It does. It does. A lot of times. I don't know how to say this, but, like, so there's some kids that we work with, and some of their families have been on the show, and they. They are Jake to me, almost, right? Like, and to me, they're my most touching. Like, I'm most connected to those families. Had Jake lived. Had Jake, like, been older, he would be exactly. Not exactly, but very similar to them. And we would be having such intertwined journeys, you know? So I. I sometimes struggle with that, though, because I just. I get jealous, right? Like, I just. I love the work we're doing in his memory. I just. Sometimes I see the changes that the, like, world, medicine, technology, all of those things. And sometimes I'm like, if he could just have hung on a little longer, I sometimes think. And when I see Jake, like, in my dream as, like, the one dream where he was older, he was kind of just standing there, like, I guess what he would look like, you know? And he was not sick, and he was not any of it last night, he was still Jake because he was, like, being held.

[Jessica Fine]

But I have dreams where Dalia's, like, walking and running and that kind of thing.

[Heather]

Do you really?

[Jessica Fine]

Yeah. And I love it, you know, but then you wake up and you're like, do you ever have dreams where you have some of the same things that Jake Was struggling with meaning. I've had dreams where, like, I can't talk or, you know, were some of those symptoms. Yeah. Do you have you.

[Heather]

I have never had one.

[Jessica Fine]

That's not a fun one to have.

[Heather]

No. That can't be. No. Oh, that's. That's interesting. So my mother is actually from Argentina, so I grew up going back and forth to Argentina. And when you were talking about the. The cemeteries, I remember being in Argentina, and they're just. They. They weren't. I don't remember them being quite as colorful, but they're just ornate and beautiful. And I feel like the closest place in our country that has that vibe is, like, New Orleans.

[Jessica Fine]

That's so interesting that you say that. Yes. Because, first of all, I've always felt that of all the places I've been in this country, and I haven't been to every state, but I've been to a lot. And I've always said New Orleans is the place that most feels to me like a different country. And also, of course, they have a lot of. Of their own practices. I've been reading about that as well. And so there's definitely a lot of spiritual practices happening in New Orleans. Well. And that's gonna be our road trip.

[Heather]

Well, I'm actually, like. I'm kind of. It's because. So every time we're there, we go to some of the different, like, voodoo shops. And like, the last time we were there, like, I was talking to someone, and she was like, you know, what's your sign? And what's this? And blah, blah, blah, blah. And she gave me this, like, little baggie of stuff that, like, I carry around in my purse. Although this is, like, classic Heather. I was, like, dumping out the purse because I was changing it. And then all the stuff went flying over because, like, the little satchel had opened. And I'm like, okay, great. I was like, now. So I'm, like, trying to sweep it back in. And I'm like, A, I have no idea what this is. B, like, I'm sorry if this is pissing someone off. Like, I was like, maybe it was.

[Jessica Fine]

Like, releasing it into the air, and so it was doing even more of its magic. But, yeah, I've been reading about all that. You know, voodoo and the traditional ceremonies. Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know. I mean, I was in New Orleans one time, and it was for Jazz Fest. It could not have been a more different time of my life. Let's just put it that way. But I could definitely see going back.

[Heather]

There's a lot there. Like, the cemeteries are, you know, because of the sea level, but they're all above. And they have. Because of that, it lends itself more to, like, the decorations and the, you.

[Jessica Fine]

Know, part of their funeral music.

[Heather]

And after. I can't remember. Yeah. I can't remember what it's called, what they do when they do those, like, walks. Like, the. There's a name for it, and I can't remember what it is, but we have been in New Orleans where, like, we've seen them go through and, like, they. Everyone's invited to, like, join in and celebrate. And, like, it's just very cool, Right.

[Jessica Fine]

And there is something so great about the idea of it being joyous.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Jessica Fine]

Which is very, very, very different from anything I've ever experienced personally, where it's really. Everything is driving towards solemnity and just, you know, having a real somber.

[Heather]

Super somber and. Yeah.

[Jessica Fine]

And so the idea of, like, this celebration and music and joy, there's something compelling about that.

[Heather]

I agree. There's so little of that in our culture, but, like, there's this little pocket in New Orleans where I feel like they lean into it.

[Jessica Fine]

Yeah. And I remember at my mother's funeral, everybody was dressed in black, with the exception of two women who had cared for my mother at the end of her life. And they were from. I don't want to get it wrong, so I won't even say, but they were from a different country. I was up there giving a eulogy, and I looked out at the sea of people wearing black, and in the very last row were these two women wearing all white with white hats. And I could just. I spotted them because they stood out, and they were radiant. And I loved it so much because it felt like they were embodying the beauty and vibrancy of my mother, where everybody. And I understand, obviously, you know, what our tradition does, but everybody was just, you know, it was so bleak. And then there they were in the back in white. And I thought that was super cool.

[Heather]

That is. That is kind of interesting. This is sort of like, my final question. Thought, right? Like, so as I. As I think about this, right. I think about this whole life out there, right? Like this, you know, And I think I had said to you before I started talking, like, I had watched this one reel of another pod, another grief podcast, where the host was like, you don't just die. Like, you don't just disappear. Like, you don't just cease to exist. Like, so whether you believe in heaven or whether you believe in any Other place, or whether you believe in energy or, like, however you think of it, there's more. And I think all of these stories, whether it's my dreams or your experience with the priestess or the media, everything in between, like, there's this other place.

[Jessica Fine]

And I can tell this is, like, the beginning of a conversation you and I are going to continue having for. For quite a long time. But I will say what is interesting to me is, does the consciousness survive bodily death? You know, because it is quite clear that we are made up almost entirely of energy. And we know energy isn't created or destroyed. We know that the energy goes into another form. But is consciousness out there somewhere? And that's what. What I Hopeful about.

[Heather]

No, so hopeful about it. And I. I love that you had that experience with Dalia where you. You felt it was her and it gave you that feeling. And even the fact that you've got this tangible recording.

[Jessica Fine]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Like, do you re. Listen? Because I think I might get obsessed. Like, I. I have obsessed.

[Jessica Fine]

I've listened a couple of times. But I. Yeah, I totally see how people get addicted to this stuff.

[Heather]

And now I just have this vision, right. Of Dahlia and Jake together. And I do find such peace in thinking of these other people that we have met in this journey and knowing that they're all up there. I say up there. I don't know that they're all together. Right.

[Jessica Fine]

I interviewed a person named Larry Carlatt on my show and listened to that episode because his child took his life at 27. And Larry tells a story about connecting with his son Rob, and Rob being with some children of other grieving parents. He know it's a whole.

[Heather]

Oh, really?

[Jessica Fine]

Yes. So check it out.

[Heather]

So that's the thing, okay? I, I. That makes me feel even better about it because, like, in my head, I'm always like, oh, well, now you're together.

[Jessica Fine]

Like, yeah, I totally. I totally agree. And then it's like they didn't know each other, but maybe they. Maybe they do now.

[Heather]

So I am so grateful that you have shared this with me. Like, I wanted to have a very special, specific conversation. Right. Because I think so many times on the show, they're all unique conversations, but they're in the rare disease journey or they're in the loss. This. I was like. I wanted to get really, like, nitty gritty with this, because I think. I think there's people who are wholeheartedly into it. I think there's people who are dabbling in it, and then there's people who are like, kind of scared of it. And then there's people who just don't believe at all. But I think everybody has, like, it's in people's thoughts.

[Jessica Fine]

I totally agree. If we can get over the hurdle of just being totally closed off and at least open ourselves a little bit to the possibility, that's where the interesting things begin to happen. Yeah. To be continued. For sure.

[Heather]

To be continued.

[Jessica Fine]

Thank you for letting me talk about all this stuff.

[Heather]

No, thank you for agreeing to. Come on. I like, when I emailed you, I was like, she's either gonna think I'm nuts or she's gonna be like, here for you. I am so grateful for you sharing that experience with us. I'm excited for some adventures with you. I think we've got a whole lot to explore.

[Jessica Fine]

Absolutely.

[Heather]

Well, thank you so much for being on the show again. I appreciate it.

[Jessica Fine]

Thank you.

[Heather]

Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. Please follow us wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you really like this episode, please share it with a friend. It would make a world of difference if we could just reach more people and share the work that we do and the stories we want to tell. Thank you so much for watching.