← A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast 
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Heather Straughter, and this is a place of yes. In each episode, we have honest conversations about grief. The messy parts, the unexpected moments, and the ways we begin to heal through heartfelt stories and expert advice. My hope is to offer you comfort, connection, and a reminder that you don't have to navigate this alone. Today I'm joined by Chelsa Olmiller, a writer, mother, and grief advocate whose work has touched the lives of thousands through her platform. Happiness, hope, and harsh realities. After losing her mom to cancer in 2017, Chelsa began writing as a way to survive the silence. And what started as a personal outlet became a powerful voice for those navigating loss in all its messy, complicated form. In this conversation, she shares what it means to grieve while still raising a family, how she's learning to let go of perfection, and why even simple traditions like baking monkey bread can hold generations of love. We talk about the loneliness of grief, the power of words, and the signs that show up when we're open to seeing them. It's heartfelt, honest, and full of wisdom, and I'm grateful to share it with you. I'm really excited about this conversation because when we had our, like, pre chat, I felt like we were really connected. And I loved. There's so much that Chelsa talks about in terms of grief, in terms of losing people we're close to and figuring out that balance of being able to embrace it and be in the memory and also be okay with being sad and living a life. And she talks a lot about in her book and on her website about legacy and the importance of legacy. And sometimes that word can feel really loaded. But I love the way that you just make it very. I don't want to say normal, but just make it part of life. And I think that's such a great way to think about it. But, Chelsa, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. Thank you.
- [01:56]
B
I. I am so honored to be here. And just like you said, our initial conversation, I felt like we'd been friends forever, you know, connected through the braid of loss and love and legacy and all this thing. So thank you for having me.
- [02:11]
A
Well, thank you for being here. We start the show this season with kind of, you know, the same question. And the question is, what is something that you have said yes to recently? And I always like to kind of give an example. And it's funny, I was struggling this morning. I'm like, heather, what have you said yes to? You've been in a bad Mood for like the whole month. So what have you said yes to? But the fact is, I think just say, like, for me, I try every day to be really cognizant of what's important. And, you know, and I think that can be sometimes the lesson of loss. But for me, sometimes my yeses are just small. And today my yes of like is just that I am embracing this day, that I am honoring my father in law. And it's funny, he really, in his prime, he really loved himself a Bacardian Coke. So I said to my husband this morning, like, I don't drink Coke. I drink Diet Coke. So I made sure I had Diet Coke and I sent him a picture. And I was like, cheers to Don, to your dad. I'm ready to cheers him later today. So maybe that's not a great yes, but I said rum and Coke.
- [03:17]
B
Wonderful yes.
- [03:19]
A
Yeah.
- [03:19]
B
I think for me, my yes lately is a little bit complicated, but it's just to really give myself permission to know that perfection is not necessary, even though my brain sometimes tells me it is. And, you know, we're a week away or a little bit more from, you know, Christmas and the New Year and all of those things. And so right now I. I'm. My yes is that family is the yes. The traditions may not be as tidy, they may not be as neat. And so my yes is just stepping into that imperfection and saying, that's okay, and it may end up better than if I tried to make things super perfect, but it's really just giving my permission to say, okay, I'm flawed and I'm messy, and that's okay.
- [04:10]
A
I love that. And it's such an important lesson. Holidays are no holidays, right? Like, I think we sometimes put this expectation on ourselves, this level of, like, everything has to be perfect. And I think, particularly when kids are small around the holidays, at least I remember when, like, Ethan was young, I was like. Would freak out about the smallest thing. Or I don't know if you do Elf on the Shelf, but we would do Elf on the Shelf. And what if you forget? And. And at the end of the day, like, now that Ethan, I mean, he's on the verge of turning 21, the things that he remembers are not, you know, it's not like if Bucky was somewhere new every day or, you know, like, it was just he remembers the, like, the traditions and what we eat and what we do and where we go, like, and. And it's important to remember that because I think we are so tough on ourselves. So I Love that. Yes. I think that is a not only holiday. Yes. But something we can all work on throughout the whole year, you know, And.
- [05:00]
B
I love that you said that, because what actually gave me the permission to accept that is that, you know, in our heads, we think we have to replicate all of these traditions and do all these things. I lost my mother, and so I'm trying to, you know, replicate her magic. The beautiful thing is that somebody asked my son, who's in second grade, he's seven, what his favorite part of the holidays were, what his favorite tradition, and he said, my mom makes monkey bread. And that was my mom's recipe. But it's something so simple. We don't just do it at Christmas. We do it a lot of other times, too. But it wasn't the presents. It wasn't these vacations that we take them on, you know, during the holidays. For some, you know, it was just the simplest thing that we do at home every single year. And I thought, if that's what he's gonna remember, then I'm the one. Pressure on. Yes. Pressure's off. Exactly.
- [05:52]
A
And I love that. And that's such a beautiful segue because we, you know, I love that it's something that you do that your mom did. And, Chels, you lost your mom in 2017. Is that true?
- [06:04]
B
That is true.
- [06:04]
A
And since then, you have gone on to really create, like, a true network for people. I'm looking down in my notes to make sure I get this right, but you are the voice behind Happiness, Hope, and Harsh Realities, which is a website that, since I've learned about, I've actually checked out a bunch of times. And one of the things that I love that you have on that is, like, you have a whole section that's just, like, memes and sayings. And those are those things that I think for people in grief, regardless of what kind. They're just those little messages that make you feel not alone. Because one of the things with grief, right, is that you can get in your own head and you can think you're the only one feeling those feelings. And you have this whole website now and this whole community based on, in my opinion, as a viewer, making people feel not so alone. How did you start that? Like, where did that come from? And where did. And how has it grown?
- [06:59]
B
It's grown so much. I started it because in 2017, my mom was 57 when she passed away. She was given two years to live with a cancer diagnosis, and she did not even make it. That was in February. She passed In July. So we didn't even get very far. So in my mind, even though it was cancer, it was unexpected. But I have. I am blessed with a wonderful husband and friends and family. And also most of my friends still have their grandparents. And so nobody knew what to do, what to say, how to, you know, sit with this new version that I was. And so I learned quickly that grief can make people uncomfortable. And so instead of sharing that with people that were around me, I just started writing, which also developed from. My mom used to tell me I should write, and I never listened. And when I realized I wouldn't get any new advice, I quickly took her advice. And at first, I. I didn't think anybody. It was for me, you know, I needed to heal. I need to process. I needed to say all these raw and harsh things that nobody had taught me about grief or prepared me for. And I started writing in, I think, 2018 or 2019, and really putting it out there, just to say, if one person relates to this and doesn't feel as alone or scared or fearful after a loss, then that is. That matters, because I'm healing, and I can help somebody else heal and never did. I think it would be as profound and impactful as it has been. And so today, I think I have over 156,000 hearts that. That follow me. And what's so beautiful is that we do. I show up and I tell my stories, and I use my voice and my words, but the hope is that I'm giving them and sharing them with people that may not have them, so they can share those words with a spouse or a friend and say, here's what I'm thinking and feeling. I just don't know how to articulate that. And so it really has turned into, like you said, a beautiful community of people that can share the harshness of grief, you know, like jealousy and anger. It's not just the tidy versions like love and remembrance.
- [09:24]
A
And I think that's probably. Probably why. Not probably why, but, like, I think it's such a huge part of the. Of why it speaks to people and certainly why it spoke to me, because I wanted to touch on that a little bit. Right. Especially in the early days, the harshness. Right. And. And those harsh feelings. Because it's not tidy and it's not pretty, or I certainly was not tidy and pretty in my days. I was, you know, emotions I didn't even know I was capable of because it just brings out this. All of those things, this sadness, this anger, this. And for me, it was a lot of anger and, like, the unfairness of the world and, you know, all of these things. And I just think giving voice to that. Right. Because, you know, I was working honestly with, I have like a writing coach, and I was meeting with her yesterday and we were talking about something we both are in child loss. And she was like, that's so interesting because when I think of it, like, and just even with. Under the same umbrella of loss, there's so many different emotions. But she's like, if you are feeling it, then someone else is feeling it. And I just think giving space for people to find that is so important. And I would dare say it's probably as healing for you as it is for all of your hundred plus thousand followers. And I love that you called them like hearts because it just gives such a, like, beautiful sentiment to this community.
- [10:43]
B
Yeah, and that's exactly right, is that, you know, even. Because what I would also see is my sister and I, we were grieving the same person. It was the same relationship, you know, a mother and a daughter. But even between the two of us, it looked very, very different. And that's okay. But life, I feel like, and my mom did such a good job of teaching us all these things, but nobody talks to us or teaches us about grief. And so we either learn it when we watch somebody else go through it, which is probably masked and covered in a way that protects us so it's not authentic, or we're reading about it from, you know, people who have experienced it, which I feel like is a newer thing. You know, people are now talking about it at a much larger capacity than I think when my mom first passed away and. Or at least I'm noticing it more. And I'm proud of that because, you know, we. You can't, even if you read a million books on grief, until you experience doesn't absorb, you know, you cannot. You cannot comprehend that. But we can be setting people up for success when we allow them to understand that shame or the anger and jealousy should not be shameful emotions and grief, but they're common emotions and grief. And I would, you know, in writing, I hope I give people the permission and, you know, the authority to say, yeah, it's okay if I feel jealousy when it's Mother's Day and I see other mothers or you different experiences, because just like you said, there's a common thread in grief. And also it's as unique as our fingerprints. You know, it's going to be different for each person, each. Each relationship.
- [12:28]
A
I love what you said, too. Because I have been toying and struggling with this a little bit, and struggling might not be the right word, but really, it's been on my mind a lot, and in so many ways, it's so good. But I sometimes call it, like, the trendiness of grief. And that's not entirely. Like, that's not. That doesn't convey exactly what I wanted to. But grief right now is everywhere, you know, in a way that. So similar to you, you know, so Jake passed in 2010. So it's been 15 years. I had to pause because I was like, is that right? Yeah, 2010. And in those early days and years, multiple years, there was not this community. There was not this social media groups. You know, there wasn't this ability to just tap in and find other people that felt the way you did. So I remember having all of this anger, and then I remember people saying to me, like, oh, stop being so angry. You're making people uncomfortable. Because there wasn't this community. And I still, like, when I say that, and I remember that I still get, like, irate, you know, Like, I still feel almost my blood boil. But I didn't have a. I was a. A lot younger, and I didn't have the confidence or the community or the people around me to make me feel okay that I was angry or that it was. So the fact that this community exists, while I say it's trendy now, I also think it's so valuable. And it's good, right? Like, it is good that we can access all of these different viewpoints and thoughts. And one of the things that I really do love about yours is that I think you have so much, you know, writing, and we're going to get into your book and in some of the more formal writing. But like I kind of said earlier, sometimes those memes are just the thing. And they. Like, if they had existed 15 years ago for me, I think I just would have been validated. Because sometimes it's just the one thing, like the one sentence or like the one phrase, like, you had something like, I can't text you anymore. And that's not exactly the words. But you know what? I. And when I see that, like, that so many people who I speak to and so many friends of mine in this grief world, like, that's almost the thing, right? It's like they still have. They haven't deleted the contact, but there's no more texts. And I had a guest on who lost her best friend, and she still will text Liv when things happen, you Know, they're in college. And, like, if she has a good field hockey game or if there's anything she's like. But it's so sad when I look at it now. Cause it's just the one side. Cool. But, you know, when. But. But when you had your. Your saying, I was like, that connects to everybody.
- [15:03]
B
Yep.
- [15:04]
A
And I just think that simplicity, but that ability is just so connecting. So I just think it's beautiful what you do.
- [15:11]
B
Thank you.
- [15:12]
A
And just went on a tirade. Yeah.
- [15:14]
B
You know, that's intentional because I. I was a reader, and I got several. I received several beautiful presents that were books about grief. And what happened for me is I couldn't pick them up.
- [15:25]
A
They were.
- [15:25]
B
They were too much. I would look at a chapter that's 15 pages long, and I would say, absolutely not. I. Something simple, whether it be a, you know, one page or one sentence that just said, oh, somebody else feels like this, you know? And I wanted to touch on something that you said that I. I learned this lesson when you said people would say things to you like, you know, stop being so angry. And one of the lessons I learned really early on is that not everyone is worthy of witnessing our grief. And we have to learn who those people are, because grief does make people uncomfortable. And also, you learn the people that are willing to sit with you in your darkness as much as your light. And as much as that's a really harsh lesson to learn, it's imperative that you learn it early on in your grief so you know who your people are, because it might surprise you who they end up being.
- [16:18]
A
Well, you know, it's so interesting, and I always want to be kind of delicate here, but some of the people who said some of those things to me were the closest people to me. Right. And I was like, if I can't be. If, like, you can't see all levels of me. And it's funny because even to this day, 15 years later, our relationship is different. Our relationship is. I don't want to say that there's a wall up, but. But kind of to your point, like, if I can't. If you can't be with I like the darkness and the lightness. Like, if you only want to be around me when I'm sunny, happy Heather, then you're not seeing all of it, like, and you're not benefiting from all of it actually, either. Right, Right. Like, no, I love that. And I think that's so important. I wanted to read back a quote, and I wrote this down, and I think I said on your website, but it might have also been in, like, an interview. So I just thought this was really. I loved it because it kind of goes with what we're talking about. But you said grief is a solitary job. And just. Even that one sentence really. It just really struck me. And you said, you know, when I realized speaking about loss made others uncomfortable, writing became my solace. I wrote about all of the things I wish I could say, all of the things I missed, all of the things I was angry I'd never get to experience now that my mother was gone. And, you know, that's just so much of what we were talking about. But it's that dichotomy, right, of, like, the healthiness of having a network and having people and making the connections and making. Making you feel less alone. But also, at the end of the day, some of it is alone, right? Like, some of it is. There's no escape. The work is ours, and some of it is solitary. So it's this balance between the two. Between this lovely world that exists now where we can find people who feel our feelings and who we can connect with, but also, at the end of the day, having to do the work alone. And grief is a solitary job, right? Like, because we can't rely on other people to fix us. We have to find the tools that work for us.
- [18:17]
B
Absolutely. I think it was Tyler Perry that said, you know, grief is a living thing. You know, we. We have to do it ourselves. Because you can run from it. You can try to work it away, you can try to drink it away, you can try to be busy, you know, but it's going to be there waiting for us. And that's where the solitary work happens is, you know, there can be people there to pat your back, to rub your hand, to walk with you, but you have to walk that journey. You ha. It is you only, you know, and you're the only person that can decide what the next step looks like, you know, because grief's gonna stay with you forever. I. I often refer to it as a shadow. You know, it's always with us. Sometimes it's very prevalent, and sometimes it's not, but it's always there. And, you know, there can be people that mean the best for you, but again, you're the one that has to do the work. And it is work. Because, you know, at the beginning, like you mentioned before, you know, it is messy and it is harsh in the rawest and most vulnerable ways. And there's not much work being done but breathing and Getting through and surviving.
- [19:30]
A
Getting out of bed.
- [19:31]
B
Work happens later. You know, the work happens later.
- [19:35]
A
And you talk about. And you kind of referenced it just now. But, like, grief is always with you, right? Like, it's your shadow. It's. It doesn't matter how much time has passed. And this morning, as I was just kind of, like, looking at your website again, just kind of getting in the right head space to be prepared to interview this, I saw that you had a review of the Life list, a Netflix movie, which is actually on my list, which is how it stood out. And you reference how 17 minutes I think, into the movie, you're like, there was loss. There was mother loss, I think. Right. And how that can. You shouldn't be surprised, but it still surprises you. And that resonated with me so much because I am constantly. Fifteen years later, I still fall into these things where. Where I can tell you the amount of books that I pick up. And I'm an avid reader, so I'm always reading. I'm reading tons of stuff. My friends and I like, we each buy a stack of books. I like a book more than like, a Kindle or anything. Like, I just love to hold a book. So we each buy a bunch of books and then we kind of share them around. So, you know, whatever. This summer, I. I think there were three in a row where it was child loss and it was not the prominent part. Like, I didn't see it coming. And part of me was like. And no one gave me a heads up, like, come on, people, you know? But it's just sometimes it can feel so comforting again for all of the ways where it's like, okay, even these authors or, you know, there's something about their lives that are making them connect with child loss, whether it's personal or friends or whatever. But it's still. I call it like, the sneaky ways of grief. Right? Like, I'm having a. Like, I'm sitting on my couch reading my book with a cup of tea. Like, I think I'm in my most Zen I can be. And then all of a sudden I'm like, are you kidding me right now? Right? And you kind of referenced that. So it was kind of this way that, like, grief is always with you, even when we're not, like, ready for it.
- [21:34]
B
Yes. And you just never know. You know, at the beginning, you learn things like birthdays and death anniversaries and Mother's Day and, you know, things like that that you prepare yourself for and.
- [21:47]
A
You expect, like, you're ready for it almost as. Yeah.
- [21:51]
B
And I think because I hit year eight, I thought, well, I'm going to be better at this. I'm going to be able to recognize things, and I. I'm going to be prepared. There is no preparation for this kind of thing. You know, it pops up everywhere. And, you know, especially with. With mother loss. I mean, it's in Disney movies. It's in all of these things everywhere. So you think, oh, the next time it happens, it's going to be in a movie. I'll be prepared. And that one really hit me hard. I did not do my research before now. I've read the book. I've actually messaged with the author because she saw that post and said, oh, my goodness, I'm so glad it resonated with you. It ended up. It took me days to watch that. That's the other thing is that, you know, if it's a book or a movie, sometimes people don't realize that it's okay to step away until you are mentally and. And emotionally ready to take on that burden. Because it is a little bit of a burden, you know? And, yeah, it took me days to finish it, but I did. And it was such a beautiful thing. And it's always that contradiction of. I'm so thankful when authors and producers and movies and things get it right, because you do feel validated. It hurts and it stings, but, man, do you feel validated to say, wow, that is a mirror very close to what I'm feeling. But you can't. You never know when it's gonna pop up.
- [23:16]
A
And I do. I feel like. Like I said this time, there were three books in a row that if you. You know, I never saw it coming. And it's. I think it's interesting you just used the word burden. Cause it is a little bit, right? Like, it's. That's, you know, it's not truly anger or it's not all these other things, but there's this heaviness where. And sometimes it does make me angry, right? Like, I'm like, why can't I just be reading this book? Or why can't I just be watching this movie without having, like, a visceral reaction? Without having to, like, take a pause or start to cry or. You know, and sometimes. Sometimes I totally lean into it. And whether it's the time of year or whatever, like, sometimes I'm like, amen. Like, I didn't see this coming, but someone else feels it. And I'll sit there and I'll cry, and I'll read my book and I'll be okay with it. Or I don't know. There was a couple series like my husband and I were watching. I can't remember what they were. But again, child loss, like, crept up and we're both like, are you kidding me right now? Like, come on. Look, we're just trying to watch our show.
- [24:10]
B
We're trying to release, like, this is our entertainment. We don't want to be triggered, you know? Yes.
- [24:15]
A
And it's funny. It is. It's like a trigger. It's like you're like, oh, come on now. It is. But I love that you even have that on your website. Right. Because that's even just this, like it was for you and like kind of your reflection on it. But even something like that has such an impact on other people, like myself included. So I was just really. I love that that is part of your brand or website or, you know, community, I guess. Community is the real word.
- [24:39]
B
Yeah, thank you. And I, I do that too. Also to say, hey, not, you know, like, not to detour you from watching this movie, but just if you're in a griefy space, know that this might be a little sensitive right now, you know, to kind of give that disclaimer that obviously they don't want to give because it'll give some of the movie away. But to say, hey, just be prepared for that.
- [25:02]
A
Heads up.
- [25:03]
B
Yeah, yeah, heads up.
- [25:06]
A
So I wanna talk a little bit about specifically, you know, the loss of your mom. And you had said she was 57 and even, you know, and it was interesting, I think, that you said this, and we talked about this before when we spoke, but even though she had cancer, it's still unexpected and I get that. Right. Like Jake was ill from when he was 8 months old. He, you know, he had a series of seizures. We never had a diagnosis. He was a super healthy baby. He had met all his milestones early and then middle of the night, had a seizure. Life changed. But even then people were like, oh, well, he was sick. It couldn't have been unexpected. Like, people don't know that almost two things can be true, right?
- [25:45]
B
Yes.
- [25:46]
A
And so I feel that, right, like she had cancer, but that doesn't mean it's not unexpected. She was 57. You were probably in no way, shape or form prepared to lose your mom. You don't think that you're going to have that loss at that age. Right. So how has that. And this is kind of a silly, loaded, all of these things, questions, but do you think of your Life. Because sometimes I do, I think of, like my life in these, like, before and after moments. And I've. I have a handful of them, but I imagine that this is one of them for you, right? Like, yes. And how do you do, like, how do you view that? Like, how do you think of that?
- [26:24]
B
Yeah, well, I think the first thing is, you know, when people talk to me about the unexpected, you know, I always tell them at the beginning I didn't have words for it. I would just feel a lot of sadness that, you know, they felt like I should have seen it coming. And what I always said to them is, well, she always survived another day until she didn't. You know, she always survived cancer until the very last day when she didn't. And so I, what I, what they saw as a deteriorating woman, I saw as a superwoman who was, you know, beating cancer again and again and keep on surviving. And so that will always remain unexpected for me. And it didn't take until after she passed to look at those photos and see what she actually looked like, because I never saw her that way. I never saw her that way. I never saw the sick version of her, um, until it started, honestly, haunting me after her death. And when she did pass, just like you said, that was the first time in my life. I think there was truly a dividing line between before and after. And it has taken a lot of time. At first I thought that it completely shattered who I was and I'm somebody completely new. And I get a little emotional talking about it because it's been an eight year old evolution. And I think now, I don't necessarily think I'm a completely different person. I think it revealed the person that my mom designed me to be and set me up to be. And what I mean by that is it really showed me my purpose. It showed me the value of time in a way that you cannot learn any other way than by sitting with somebody that is passing away and taking their final breaths. And it seemed like I lost both her and myself, you know, that dividing line. But at the same time, I also don't think I would have wanted to stay that same person because that person didn't know how amazingly blessed I was to have another day, to have had my mom for even the smallest amount of time that I did. You know, to have all of these blessings. And you, you appreciate them when you're l him, but when you don't have them anymore, at least you don't have them in the capacity that you're used to. You really Value life differently, and you value friendships and relationships differently. And I think it has instilled an empathy in me that I always saw in my mom. And I didn't know where she got it. I didn't know how she got to be this such compassionate and empathetic person. And now looking back, I realized it was probably in the losing of her parents and the loss of her parents. And so I do think, you know, there is definitely. July 3, 2017. Was that before and after for me.
- [29:22]
A
I think that you touched on something that's so. In my mind, it's one of the challenges that I always try to work through. And it's come up in the. In the seasons of this show. It's come up in various conversations, but, like, the before and after, but more of what you just said, like, the who we become, you know, who we have evolved into. And I struggle. I struggle less so now because I'm just more comfortable with it. And I think, honestly, having this show and talking to people has just helped me. Help me in so many ways. But that idea of who I am now and who I've become in the last 15 years, and not to say that I was a bad person before, but, like, I just. The loss of Jake has just changed me. Like, it's changed my goal. It's changed my career path. It's changed what I do, what I do, who I am, like, what I say, how I think. And I've grown to really like this person that I've become or, like, be comfortable in this skin. And without the loss, I don't know that I'd be here in the same place. There's no way I could have been because I wouldn't have this empathy or compassion or understanding. And. And sometimes I think I'm almost annoying to the point of, like, nothing's a big deal, right? Like, and not that I don't, like, spiral over things, but, like, at the end of the day, like, if I'm bickering with my husband or if we're fighting about this or whatever, I'm kind of like, it's just not that serious.
- [30:49]
B
Like, yes, people die every day.
- [30:51]
A
You know, like, we've. We're here. We've got it. You don't know when it ends. You just don't. And if this is your last. Is this what we're gonna go out as fighting about? You didn't like the tone of my voice, or I didn't like the way you rolled your eyes at me or. You know what I mean?
- [31:05]
B
Like, so it's funny.
- [31:06]
A
Like, it can make me almost super cavalier, like it's not that important. But I also think it's not that important. Like, we get so fixated on things when you learn this lesson, right? And yes, I don't know, it's. There is a before and after on how I live, but there's also a before and after who I am. And my struggle, I guess, is I like this person, but I give. I'd give everything to have Jake back and be less enlightened. You know what I mean?
- [31:31]
B
Yes, yes. And, but. But what a beautiful thing that you do like this person, you know, And I think that if you're sitting in grief, you know, for everybody that's listening, and you don't yet like this person, then you're not there yet. You will be. Because for a while, I mean, I did nothing. I was angry and, you know, I felt like the world was unfair and out of everybody, why did it have to be her and all of these things? And, you know, at year two, I. I didn't like who I was. I was a shell of a person. I was walking, but I wasn't present in anything that I was doing, you know. And so you. You get there by slowly doing the work and evolving by. When the loss can transform from sorrow and longing. That's still there, but you have more of the remembrance and honor and all of those things. I think that's when we can start to be proud of. Of who we're becoming. And it is, you know, it's a beautiful thing because you can say, you know, some of the things that people think are so big, you have the awareness to go, okay, well, we're. We're healthy. We're not receiving a fatal diagnosis or something that's going to shift things. We can get past through this easy. It may not be great. You, you know, you might still be struggling, but, oh, man, we can get past this.
- [32:54]
A
It's so true. And it's so. It just is. It's like it's remembering that. And I do think it's important what you said, because I do think it's easy for people sometimes to see people who have gone through grief and then they kind of, you know, when you come out the other side and you've sort of are this different version than, but always remembering that, like, shell of a person stage, the, the. I don't want to say the ugly stage, but, like, I don't mean physically. I just mean the like, ugly stage of like, like, I can look back and picture and I don't even feel like myself anymore. But I remember just like the deep crying and the like curling up into a ball. And I remember for me it was very much like I would give myself these like, talking tos because I had. Ethan was only five and I was like, you can't, you know, you gotta, you gotta be there for your kid. Like, you lost one kid, but you still have one alive. You have to do the right thing. But that was so much fake it until you make it. But I do think, and this has been a constant theme of the show as well, but it's kind of what you said, you know, you kind of. Before you let yourself, before you can get to this version, you've gotta do the work in the bad stage. And you know, we had a guest I just spoke with a month ago or a couple weeks ago where we talked about, you can't have the highs if you don't have the lows. Right? And, and it's such a truth to me. Like, I do think that, you know, there's so many people, like grief and joy live side by side, but you gotta feel them both, right? You gotta be able to be like, acknowledge the hard, to feel the good. And I think that's kind of, you know, and it takes people different times. It could take years. So, you know, if you're still, if you're not happy with where you are yet, like, I think I like the way you said it. You're not there yet. You still got the work to do.
- [34:40]
B
Yep. Yeah, absolutely.
- [34:43]
A
Talk to me about so losing your mom and being a mom. And I feel like that's a, that's something that has come up with guests and it just, it almost gives me the chills because like, how, how, how has that impacted. Is that a before, after too? Or like, has that changed?
- [35:01]
B
Definitely. And I think it evolves as my children continue to grow and I don't have her guidance. Our daughter is 14, she's a freshman in high school. And you know, it's hard being a young woman these days. And I am a parent of a.
- [35:19]
A
14 year old as well.
- [35:20]
B
Yes, a hundred percent. And I am really struggling in the now with, you know, not having my mom to call and say, am I doing this right? Am I supporting her the way that I should be? Is she okay? Is she going to be okay? You know, not having my mom here, it. That's probably one of the most. Being a mother without your mother makes me emotional because I think it's the thing I'm Always going to struggle with. Because your children are constantly growing into the person that they're going to be. So they're never the same with each year, you know, whether it's second grade or freshman in high school. And I struggle with that the most because in those times is when I, again, start to feel a little bit of anger or jealousy or unfairness that my mom isn't here and. And that there are a lot of women that have their mothers that aren't utiliz them or, you know, that's.
- [36:12]
A
That's a big thing.
- [36:14]
B
Yes. And in those moments, I have to remind myself that the reason I'm hurting and yearning for her advice is because I was blessed to have a mother that gave good advice and that set me up for success. And not everyone has that. And so that kind of levels my foundation on that. But, yeah, I think it. It's just. It's a really hard thing. And also to remember that, you know, I'm still grieving my mother. And so my two oldest knew my mom. They were here before she passed. My youngest never met her, although you would never know that by the way he talks about her, because my two oldest have done such a good job of keeping her memory alive. But, you know, they're still grieving their grandmother, too. And so it's just. Yeah, it's such a complex thing. And I don't even know. Some days I feel like I'm clueless, and other days I feel like I'm kind of figuring it out. But I wish. I always tell my husband this. I say I wish there was like a big brother's big sisters. But when you lose a mom that you get like a mentor or somebody that can help you, you know, because, like, for instance, it was just Thanksgiving, you know, last month, and my mom never had the time to teach me how to make a turkey. Okay, to bake a turkey, and to do all that because she was still doing it until she couldn't, and then it was too late. And so there are all these things that mothers teach their children, their adult children, that I never had the chance to learn. And so I feel incompetent sometimes of how do I do these things? And, you know, my dad is wonderful, but he's not my mother. And so I. I feel like there's this void that follows me through parenthood just constantly reminding me that she's not here and that I'm a little less equipped because of it.
- [38:03]
A
That's such a perfect example of, you know, I think of grief. Right. Like of where you never know when it's gonna creep up on you. And there it is. Like, who would think that Cooking a turkey or. You know what I mean? But I get that. Like, I get that feeling of, like. So with me, it's a little different because it was my son. But there's these. As Ethan has grown, you know, he was five when his brother died. He's gonna be 21 next month. You know, I always think of, like, all of the different stages, and Jake's still 4, you know. Yes, he's gonna turn 20 in May, but in my mind, he's 4. Like, it all just came to this screeching halt. And I think of all of the experiences I've had with Ethan that I don't have with Jake. And when I let myself. Those are the. When I still get, like, it's unfair, or I get unduly angry almost. You know, Like, I'm like. But it's those small things. And not that it's a small thing, because you're like, wait, she should have. I should have learned this from my mom, but now I never can. And, I mean, it's. I don't know, the finality of death. Right. Like, I think that is another one of the struggles. And I think maybe this time of year for me is I think about it more because I feel almost obsessed with it. But, like, December 8th was 15 years that Jake's been gone. So that just. It just struck a chord in a different way. Like, 14 was different. I suspect 16 will be different. But 15 just feels like a landmark, significant. Like any of those things impossible. Like, it just feels crazy. But I just think of those moments. Right. Like, and you never know when they come up. And it's kind of the part that grief will always take your breath away.
- [39:46]
B
Yes.
- [39:46]
A
No matter how much. And I think that it's just an example. Right. Like, my mom won't be able to teach me how to make a turkey. You know, And I think I've had, you know, people like, you know, my dad will never walk me down the aisle. Like, there's just those moments. Yes. And that's, like, the ongoing grief. Right. Like, that's just not the sadness that they've died, but it's the. The constant reminder.
- [40:12]
B
Yes. Yeah. And the pieces that are recognizably gone, you know, that that cannot be added back. And, like, yes, I can have somebody else in our family teach me how to, you know, bake a turkey the correct way, but there's just something different about it.
- [40:29]
A
You know, there's like a significance or a finality or just a constant reminder. Yes. So I want to move on to the book that you wrote, and I'm going to read the title, so I get the whole thing. But you wrote now that she's a daughter's reflection on lost love and a mother's legacy. Yep. And can you talk about how that the idea of the book kind of evolved because you had, you know, your writing on your website and blog posts and different things, and where did. Is it your mother's kind of inspiration that you should be a writer that.
- [41:01]
B
Made it turn into a book?
- [41:02]
A
Or how did that. How did that evolve?
- [41:05]
B
Yeah, it was a beautiful thing. So the. I knew I wanted to create something that you could hand someone at a funeral instead of flowers or casseroles that would be there for them when they're ready, you know, because it could be two days after passing, it could be two years. I wanted something that was timeless, that people could give as a gift. And it's designed in my mom's favorite colors, which is purple and lavender. And it really came to be just when I knew both that I wanted to do it and have this resource for people. And I kept that quiet until people started emailing and saying, where can I buy this book? And I thought, well, there isn't a book. It's just on my website or it's just on my social media. And so I really started digging in, and I really do think it was just, like, divine intervention of how it worked out, because I got my agent during a time where she really wasn't supposed to be taking any other clients. But we met, we connected. She had lost her mother, and she felt very passionate about the project that I was, you know, working on. And then coincidingly, when she sent it to publishers, the acquisitions editor, Rachel, who is wonderful at Revel, had just had her very dear best friend lose her mother. And she said this was what I wanted to give her as a gift. You know, when flowers fall short and, you know, food falls short, this is what I wanted to hand her. And I knew that we needed to do this project. And so that's how it became a reality. And what it is is a collection of essays or reflections that are very short so that you can take what you need when you need it. So it's not chapters. It's split into sections so that, you know, it doesn't have to be read in order. You can read it in order, and it flows. But if you need certain sections of it, you know, you can skip to that. And then the beautiful thing is that each section starts with a quote from my mother that came from notes she had left me or cards she had written me through, you know, college or adulthood. And so it was important to me that she kind of be a co author, because without her, it wouldn't have been a possibility. And so has been the biggest blessing, because every time I get a review or an email that said, I bought this for my friend because she lost her mother, or I read this after losing my own mother, and you gave me words that I didn't have. And every time I get that, I feel like I'm making my mom proud, which is my goal every single day. And then I'm keeping her memory and her legacy alive through, you know, words and work and remembrance. And so, yeah, it's been a really big blessing in my life. And another thing that wouldn't have happened without this significant loss.
- [44:01]
A
It's such a. I mean, I. I hadn't thought of it in those words, and I think it's so great. Right? And as you were saying, I was thinking of people that I can order and give it to because we talk so often on this show about. You know, I had one guest who lost her father and was like, so many people sent flowers, and I hated the flowers. I hated them in my kitchen. I hated them watching. Like, I. My father died unexpectedly. He was my best friend. I lost him. We buried him. Then there's all these flowers in my house. My house smells weird, and then they all die, and then I have to deal with them, you know, so it's. It's funny. It has, like, resonated for me about, like, what is our go to? We send flowers. Oh, maybe we should stop, you know, like, and just these. A useful gift, right? Like. Like something. And I like that it's not a pressure, because you referenced this earlier in our conversation, and. And I felt this. You know the books that people give you about loss sometimes right after. And some of them are like tombs, right? Like, you're like, I can't read 15 chapters, or I can't read all of this to pull one. Like, it just. I can't make myself sadder, or I can't feel like I'm doing schoolwork or. You know what I mean? It feels like a textbook almost. But to have something where, like, you can just pick up, you know, keep it on your nightstand and just, like, randomly pick a page before you go to bed or just something that when you need it, it's there. Yep. It reminds me of my husband when Jake first passed. Someone had given him a book. And neither of us are very religious, but this was kind of. I think it was a book of, like, passages or something. But he would just go to the grave every day, and he would kind of silently read a passage like, with Jake. And he's gonna listen to this and be like, no, you have it totally wrong, Heather. But it was something like this. It's how I remember it. But he would have this routine or, like, ritual. Ritual. And it was, I think, really, really helpful for him. And I just. It was one of the ways that it made me think about, like, how we're grieving. You know, you had said earlier, like, you and your sister grieving, the same person, same relationship, but differently. And it was one of the ways that I had this moment where I was like, this is what's working for him. This structure, this routine where I was kind of all over the place. But I feel like that book could be something like that as well. Right? Just this place where you take a moment and have connection, but it's not like, literally feeling like, oh, my God, I have to read this to do the work. This is just a companion in your grief.
- [46:26]
B
Yes, a companion, exactly. And it starts out. I mean, the very first essay is the day she dies, you know, and so it really starts out from a place that is very raw and real and authentic. And so I always tell people, you know, if you need to skip to a couple chapter or a couple sections in, you know, do that and take what you need when you need it. That's what I always say, you know, it's here. And also, I have a few people that. I actually just had a lady email me this week, and she said, hey, I received your book. I lost my mom, you know, eight months ago. I have not opened it yet because I'm not quite ready. And, you know, I'm sorry about that, but I'm going to get to it. And I said, there. No, it is there for you when you need it. There's no pressure. That is, let it sit there until one day when you're like, wonder what that is. Interesting, you know, and so I think that's so important that we give ourselves permission to just say, hey, I'll. I'll get these resources or I'll read or whatever, when it's. When I'm ready for it. And because it does, again, it starts off pretty raw and vulnerable and harsh, but it's also in the same thing. It's that and you know, like our friend Jillian has talked about, is that, you know, we are really, you know, having longing and sorrow and all of these harsh things, and we're blessed by the love and the light and the remembrance and both things can be true at the same time.
- [47:53]
A
Absolutely. Absolutely. Where can people find your book? Amazon. All the places.
- [47:58]
B
Yes. The book is available anywhere books are sold. So I always tell people first, if you don't think that you can purchase it, especially times are tight around the holidays, please go to your local library. They can check you. They can order it for you and you can check it out for free at your local library. I'm big in small businesses, so if you have a local bookstore, bookstore that's local for you, please have them get it for you and support local. But it is also available Target, Walmart, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, wherever books are sold.
- [48:27]
A
Awesome. Excellent. I love that. I think that could be for the listeners. I think sometimes we have people who are in the grief journey with us. Other times we have people who listen because they want to know how to support their friends or their family or their colleagues. And I always love when. When we can share like a takeaway. And I think your book is just sounds like a perfect thing and I love that. So thank you for writing it and thank you for providing that for people because I think sometimes the work we do is beneficial to ourselves, but it's also so beneficial for other people. So I value that.
- [48:59]
B
Thank you.
- [49:01]
A
Before we wrap things up, I always love to talk a little bit and maybe because it's so important to me, but how do you feel? Or do you feel, I guess is the question, like, your mom's presence around. And I'm sensing from this conversation that you do, because I feel like you sort of have found a way to live side by side with her and. But I don't want to put words in your mouth like, how do you feel her around if you do and does she still.
- [49:24]
B
I love that you said that side by side because I've learned that, you know, she's not here in a capacity that I can understand or see, but I definitely feel like, you know, her promise as a mom was that it makes me emotional.
- [49:39]
A
Sorry.
- [49:39]
B
But was that she would always be with us. You know, she told us that when we left for college or camp and her steadfast promise in that, that she would always remain with us. And I know that death would not stop her from that. And so I think for me, it's just being open to things that might Be bigger than coincidence. You know, when I had never seen cardinals at my house ever, until after my mother passed. And one literally came up. I was in the living room one day, I was crying. You know, I was having a very hard moment. And I kid you not, I still talk about this to this day. This cardinal came up and tapped on the window. And then it just sat there. And at first it scared me. And I thought, what is happening? And in that moment, I don't think I knew, like to go, okay, this is a sign.
- [50:34]
A
Yeah, no, of course.
- [50:35]
B
But looking back, you know, a few weeks later, I thought, what are the odds of that? And it just sat there until I was done crying. And then eventually it flew away. And then after that day, I see cardinals all the time, just when I need them. And I'll even say, like, mom, I'm having a really rough day. If you're here and you can hear me or, you know you can still love me from afar, please show me today in some way. And it may be a cardinal, or it might just be a rainbow, or, you know, something will happen and a lot of people will say that's coincidence and that's fine. But for me, I think even if it is, the fact that it gives me hope would make her happy. And I'm okay with that.
- [51:14]
A
I know, I love it. I, you know, I am a big believer in it. And I think we may have discussed this before, but cardinals are Jake as well. And same, you know, I had never. Whether it's. I've never saw them before Jake passed, or I just never paid attention, like it was just not a thing. And I remember all of a sudden being like, I am being stalked by this cardinal. Like, what is happening? And then we were like, hey, maybe it's Jake. And it just, I thought it was just us being silly. And then I realized it's a whole thing with cardinals.
- [51:42]
B
And I know I never knew that either.
- [51:44]
A
Isn't it funny? And I will.
- [51:46]
B
Yeah. And the I. What I didn't tell you is the follow up to that is that after my mom passed, it was probably a year later, we were moving houses. And I was terrified because I thought, oh, my goodness, these cardinal, this cardinal that comes is not going to find here. I'm never going to see another cardinal again. And so we stood in our house the day of inspection. We, I think we hadn't even moved in yet. There were people here painting, and we were looking out the back window, which is just all woods behind us. And I said out loud, I said, I'm so terrified that when we move here, I'm never going to see a cardinal again. And two cardinals came and landed right on the tree. And I was like, okay, mom, okay, got you.
- [52:33]
A
I see you.
- [52:34]
B
Yes, I love that. And the fact that there were two because my dad was standing next to me as well and my husband was in the room. We'd also lost his mother, but my, my father had obviously lost his parents. And so I just thought, okay, I don't know who she's with, but somebody else is showing up here today. And thank you. And since we see them all the time, we see them all the time here.
- [52:56]
A
So you'll appreciate this story because this is a cardinal story. And I haven't told this to anybody. I haven't even discussed it formally with my husband. But for his birthday this past year, I got him. It's called like the bird buddy. And it's like, oh, yes, you know what I got?
- [53:10]
B
We bought that for my father in law.
- [53:12]
A
So it's like the bird, like stand with the feeder, but it's got like the, it's like a ring camera for birds. So he gets.
- [53:19]
B
It's amazing.
- [53:20]
A
It's so cool. And it took a few months where we had nothing, but it says it like, oh, it could take a while for like the birds to get used to it. Blah, blah, blah, blah. So December 8th, like I said, was 15 years. We woke up the morning of the 9th that he had had a recording. And the recording was a bright red, beautiful cardinal.
- [53:39]
B
Oh my God.
- [53:41]
A
I was like. At first I was like, this can't be true. Like this can't have happened. And I believe all of the things, right? Like I will be having a bad day. I look out my kitchen window and there's a cardinal. Or like there's been times when I'm driving and I was like, oh my God, this cardinal will dive bomb my car. So I believe in all of that. But holy crap. On, on like the 15 year video evidence. Video evidence at our house. He's like, hey guys.
- [54:06]
B
Yes. Oh, I love that.
- [54:08]
A
Isn't that cool?
- [54:09]
B
You know, I just think what a beautiful reminder and sentiment of love. You know, if that is not hope.
- [54:17]
A
What is, then what is, right? And if that's not enough to like make you believe and feel like, like I, I just felt like lighter and happier and you know, the sadness will never be gone. But there's this. If you're open to these other ways, they are there, I believe.
- [54:34]
B
Yep. Yeah. I think the best way, at least for me to move forward and continue to heal is that I had to remind myself or teach myself actually that, you know, my mother died, but that doesn't mean our relationship had to. It can continue, but it's going to look vastly different than I want it to, but that doesn't mean that it's ending. You know, I can still talk to her and we can still have that connection. It's gonna feel very much one sided most of the time. But just continuing that provides a little bit of, you know, space to let go of some of the weight of grief and kind of fill you with a little bit more of that legacy component and that love component and a.
- [55:17]
A
Little bit of like this relief that there is this other way to get to maintain or to have it. Like a little bit of a reprieve from the grief almost.
- [55:25]
B
Yes.
- [55:25]
A
Chels, thank you so much for being a guest on this show. I have so enjoyed this conversation and honestly I feel like after it I am, I'm going into my day a little lighter than I started and a little like feeling better about it. So thank you for that.
- [55:39]
B
Yeah, same. Absolutely. It's been a delight.
- [55:42]
A
So I just. One more time for the audience. Can you just share the name of your book and just in case they need it and then we can.
- [55:49]
B
Absolutely. So my book is now that She's Gone, A Daughter's Reflections on Loss, Love and a Mother's Legacy. Again. It's available wherever books are sold. And you can also find me on social media at Happiness, Hope and Harsh Realities. I'm on Instagram, Facebook, Tick Tock, all the things.
- [56:07]
A
Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it to see you next time on A Place of Yes.