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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to A Place of Yes, a podcast about how I moved through my darkest hour, and for me, that was in channeling my grief into good. Welcome to the show. Hi, there. Today's episode is a heartfelt conversation with Emma Rose, a tattoo artist based in Denver, Colorado. I've known Emma since she was in high school. Her younger brother is Ethan's best friend, and our lives have overlapped for years. In this episode, we talk openly about addiction and the very complicated dynamics that come with loving someone who struggles with addiction and mental health. Emma was in a relationship with Shane, who sadly passed away from an accidental overdose. We explore a lot throughout this conversation, what it means to support someone in their darkest moments, how addiction impacts relationships, and how Emma is processing grief in the aftermath. We don't really get into Shane's death until about halfway through, so the conversation really takes you on her journey. It's an intense one, but it's also deeply touching, and I'm so grateful to Emma for showing up so honestly. This episode does touch on addiction, overdose, and a lot of very heavy issues. We will be posting resources in the show notes at the end of the episode. Today's guest is Emma Rose, who I have known since she was a teenager. Her youngest brother is Ethan's best friend, I think since, like, first or second grade. So our family, like, dynamics have sort of overlapped for years. So welcome to the show, Emma. So you've been in Denver five years. Can you tell me about your life there? Tell me about how you picked it, how you ended up there, and all of that?
- [01:49]
B
Yeah. So actually, in, like, 2019, my mom and I visited, and we just kind of, like, went through the arts districts, and we're, like, exploring around Denver, and I fell in love with it here. I had two friends from college that lived here, and that was kind of the, like, catalyst, I guess. And I was thinking about moving for a long time and never really pulled the trigger there. So with COVID happening and, like, realizing, like, this isn't going away for a while, like, I might as well go somewhere new. So. So I just kind of packed up my car and drove out here in 2020. And since then, I have learned to tattoo, and I'm tattooing out here, as.
- [02:25]
A
Is often the case on this show. We're usually here to talk about loss. And your situation, unfortunately, is the same. And you lost your partner, Shane, a few years ago. How long ago was that?
- [02:36]
B
Yeah, so it. We just hit two years, March 31st. Yeah. So 2023, it was.
- [02:43]
A
So can you share with the audience a little bit, just about how you met him, your relationship, and then we'll kind of get into sort of what happened.
- [02:51]
B
So I met him through my friends that I actually moved out to meet in a house. It was like a stepping stone, I would say, for people. Like, you would kind of move out here, live in the house with your friends, and then get a new place. And he did that same thing. And we were kind of, like, overlapping in our finding an apartment and doing that, so. So we met through that and immediately just clicked. He was so silly and accepted everyone as they were. So I felt very seen by him. And we connected. At first we were like, we're just friends. We're just friends. And then it turned into more. I think we dated for about two and a half years. I want to say. I think a lot of incredible creative minds do struggle a lot, and that was something that was very easy to pick up on. And I think I am kind of drawn to those people because, I don't know, I've just always been, like, intrigued by their minds. And they. A lot of people that struggle have, like, incredible thoughts and just, like, feelings and views on the world. So I was so drawn to that. But, you know, with that comes, like, a lot of mental health struggle.
- [03:53]
A
Did you know right away, like, so it was evident right away that he had some, like, mental health issues.
- [03:59]
B
At first with him, I could. I could sense it. And I think because I do have a psychology background, I think I can empathize more. I could be like, you know, he was drinking heavier than most people I knew, but it was Covid, and we are young, so it was kind of like, okay, this isn't, you know, something red flag. But the more he opened up to me, the more he, like, told me about his issues with addiction. And I think he did struggle really hard with that stigma that can kind of surround it. So I was a safe space, I think, because I wasn't, like, I came out of place or from a place with no judgment towards him and just accepted him as he did for other people. Overall, I could look past it and see him, like, to his core.
- [04:42]
A
How did that weigh on you, though? Like, maybe not so much at the time, because sometimes when you're in it, it's hard to see it. There must have been a heaviness to that, because if you're someone's person, it can be hard on you.
- [04:52]
B
It definitely did weigh on me. There's, like, an ego thing, I think, to it, too, where you're like, oh, I'M supporting this person. Like, I have so much space for them, and they see that. And as much as people don't want to admit it is about you in a way where you're like, ooh, like, this feels good. Like, they're. They're coming to me for support. And obviously, like, you want to support the people you love, but there is a certain point where it's not your responsibility. And, like, being able to separate and differentiate, I think can become really, like, blurred with intense relationships. As we had, his feelings became mine and vice versa. So if he was struggling, I wasn't doing well. Or if I wasn't doing well, he wasn't doing well. And it's. That can be, like, kind of a fire set to that when there's substance involved.
- [05:37]
A
I think you raised such a good point, because I, like. I have felt that in my, like, you know, in my life, along with different relationships. And even. Even a little bit now, if I'm being honest, like, sort of in this, like, grief world, because there is an ego piece to it. There is this place of, like, oh, I'm the one that can make this difference, or understands and sees.
- [05:54]
B
And it's a very human thing, but it's important to recognize, because when you love someone, like that classic thing where, like, love someone, set them free, this is your feeling. And I'm, like, here to support you through figuring it out. But, like, I can't figure it out for you. And I think that got lost with us sometimes, because even, like, in sobriety, I'm almost three years sober. That kind of started with him, where I wanted to support him through sobriety. So I was like, if I do it, like, maybe he'll do it. And, like, he did for a while. But again, like, it comes down to, like, you have to want that. Wanting it isn't even enough sometimes because it becomes a physical addiction. And I know that he wanted it very badly, but there were, like, so many roadblocks along the way.
- [06:38]
A
I know you've been sober for a long time, so was it because you're like, oh, I can do this with him, or was it something internal, or was it.
- [06:44]
B
It was definitely a little bit of both. All of it. Yeah. Where I didn't love how I was interacting in my relationships, my friendships, like, any of that. And also, just, like, a physical feeling where I was doing all these healthy things for myself, like yoga and eating well and everything. And then I'm like. But then I'm blacking out drinking, so it felt just a little bit Like, I was living in a contradiction kind of. And then he really kind of helped that because he had such a deep, like, knowledge and understanding of what it meant to be sober and, like, how it wasn't just not drinking and it was, like, doing this deeper work. And he had been in programs and yeah, like, even though he struggled, he was so, like, educated on all of it. And he had so many friends that have passed, as have I. He had, like, this deeper kind of knowledge that contributed to me being like, okay, like, maybe this is how I want to live my life. It felt like more authentic.
- [07:37]
A
So he wanted to be sober and what were the obstacles that came in his way?
- [07:42]
B
So Shane started using drugs and alcohol when he was probably, like, 14 or 15, I want to say. And obviously this is just, like, me telling his story, and he would probably do a way better job than me. I feel like as a kid he struggled, like, feeling like he was like the black sheep. So that kind of started that cycle of him, like, going to alcohol and drugs to kind of, like, quiet his mind or, like, feel safer. And I think drugs and alcohol can feed into mental health, and mental health can feed into drugs and alcohol. Like, it's like a relationship. We use drugs to calm our mind, but then the mind gets more messed up from the drugs and alcohol circles back. And I feel like he really struggled that, you know, starting at such a young age, your brain is still developing, and I think it really impacts how you start to view the world and, like, it becomes that safe space for you. It's an easy fix. You get high and it feels good and you don't have to think about, like, these things that are, like, torturing your brain. Because he was also diagnosed with bipolar, which I think adds, like, a really important part of the story, I guess, because it's so misdiagnosed and misunderstood. Therefore, like, you. You feel, like, lost and, like, you don't have anywhere to turn to, and drugs always have your back. Yeah. So it's like, it starts with, like, you know, that over prescribing of opiates, and then, like, it trickles down into the. Just, like, how we view things and, you know, like, not acknowledging the deep rooted issue and just finding, like, a band aid fix for things. For me, like, my issue is alcohol, which I think was easier to just kind of put off as just, I'm having fun. And he was around people that were using it and making it look cool. And, like, he was like, oh, I can just turn my brain off. Like, he's. He Told me, like, when he was a kid, like, it was like, why wouldn't I do that? It's hard because you want to be sober, because you want to show up for your friends, your family, yourself. And, you know, it prevents you from being, like, showing up in your life. And he knew that.
- [09:35]
A
You can know it, the big picture of what you want for your life and that you want to do X, Y and Z. But big picture and small is very different. To get to the big picture, you've got to do the small work. The big picture is sort of the easy part. It's the little stuff along the way that is hard.
- [09:52]
B
Like, you can want deeply to be sober, but, like, your body is addicted to a substance that, like, quite literally will kill you if you don't continue doing it. Alcohol is one of those things, actually, which is really crazy where, like, I've never had physical withdrawal symptoms, right. I don't know what that feels like. But if you don't drink a beer in the morning and you have this, like, physical anxiety and physical, like, your body is, like, rejecting you and you're physically sick, it makes sense that you would drink a beer, you know? But then it, like, it continues the cycle. In the moment. I was just like, I care about this person. I want him to be, like, the best I know he can because he was, like, an incredible person. And I'm like, why don't you see that? I see this? Like, you need to see what I see. And, like, if you just stop, maybe you would. It's not that easy. And I think, like, through my grief especially, like, I've realized it's not that easy. And, like, I can find, like, more empathy for him where I didn't always have it, and, like, empathy for myself because I was doing the best I could with what I had at that time.
- [10:53]
A
Like, Shay knows that you're working through at least I believe. Like, do you. Do you have, like, a relationship with him still?
- [10:59]
B
Definitely. I think I like to think that I'm very, like, logical, and I'm like, I don't know about, like, these signs. Like, if that helps people, that's great. But I've always kind of been like, no. But then I think after he died, that kind of changed. And I, like, I got a journal that I like specifically was, like, me talking to him, and I would write in it when I, like, would think of him or, like, go through something. And, like, it still is hard not to be reminded of him all of the time because, like, he was such a unique Person that, like, you see something, like, silly in the store, and I'm like, oh, my God. Like, he would have loved that. And, like, I used to write a lot, so I would talk to him that way. And then we both have, like, this obsession with crows. And I would keep seeing crows and ravens. And like, one time I found, like, a dead crow and it had these purple flowers laid on top of them. One of my good friends, her partner also passed away, like, two years before Shane did. So we had this, like, really strong bond. And his thing was, like, giving her purple flowers. So I was like, this is weird. Yeah. And, like, there was one day where I was pissed because I felt like everybody was getting signs and I wasn't. Like, everyone was like, ooh, Shane sent me this. Or like, Shane said this. And I was like, that's so annoying. Like, he hasn't said anything. Like, maybe he's, like, pissed off at me or mad at me or whatever. I feel like I was kind of, like, detached from that idea. And then I was walking and I, like, looked to my side and there was just a crow skull, like, laying in this, like, patch of grass. Which is not something you find all the time.
- [12:25]
A
No, no, no.
- [12:26]
B
In Denver, downtown Colorado. So I was like, that's weird. I left it. And then my friends. You need to go back and get that.
- [12:31]
A
Did you go get it?
- [12:32]
B
Yeah. That's awesome.
- [12:34]
A
And it's funny, I was kind of the same way. Like, I don't know, 15 years ago. Like, it wasn't. I don't. Like, people just didn't talk about stuff as much. So, like, you didn't talk about signs, you didn't talk about any of those things. But I remember just being like, some of the stuff is too weird. Too weird for it not to mean something.
- [12:50]
B
To answer that question, I guess I definitely have a relationship with him still. And I. I have his dog. So that in itself, I think, is kind of a relationship with Shane because I'm taking care of something that, like, it was, like, arguably one of his most loved things in his life. We would do, like, art therapy nights where we would lay out a bunch of magazines and, like, cut it up and just paste it on, like, whatever we could find. And we did it on, like, spray can paint cans and skateboards and big canvases, and it was just, like, really releasing. And I had this moment after he died where I was just, like, mad at him. I was like, I just need to, like, get this energy out. And I took out all of the, like, magazines and I Collaged, like, a picture of him. And I don't remember doing it. Like, I stopped and I was like. I feel like that man just, like, channeled his energy, like, through me. And I just made this piece of art, and it was crazy. Like, I was like, you still have it?
- [13:47]
A
You have it in your apartment now?
- [13:48]
B
Yeah, it's literally right next to me. This. It's like, oh, that's awesome.
- [13:52]
A
When we lose someone so important, right? Like. Like, the love and the loss is so big. I also believe that it's. It is for them, too, wherever he is. And I don't. I don't know the answer. Like, I'm not religious. Like, I don't know what I think actually happens, but I do think that the spirit and the pe. Like, the important part of who they are is still there. So he misses you as much as you miss him.
- [14:14]
B
I do try to, like, channel the grief into, like, bigger things. And I think, again, part of that, I feel like, is, like, for me, but also for him. And especially, like, keeping it at the good parts, because I think sometimes when people die from something, like, related to addiction or suicide or something kind of taboo, you know, it's brushed under the rug a little bit. And I think it's important to, like, acknowledge it, but also, like, remember, like, who they were to their core, not just how they died.
- [14:40]
A
I think that's hugely important. I think it's our jobs sometimes to help people see through some of that.
- [14:47]
B
Yeah, like, almost, I think by spreading, like, the really amazing parts of him, like his, like, creativity and his silliness and humor and music taste, even, like, little things like that. And just how he, like, cared so much for other people. It's, like, kind of separating that from, like, oh, he was an addict that died from an overdose. That doesn't define his life. Like, his life was bigger than that, and it was more than that. An addict can be anyone. Like, it doesn't mean you're a bad person.
- [15:13]
A
Or, like, was it an accidental overdose?
- [15:16]
B
Yeah. So we have determined that it's accidental. Like, his autopsy and everything has said that it's accidental. It was fentanyl. You know, he, like, knew what he was doing. But at a certain point, when you are in that, like, phase of addiction, you have this, like, tolerance that you used to have, and you almost forget because people have tolerances to fentanyl. I think it is, like, a scary word, but, you know, they use it in, like, doctor's offices and stuff like that, and you can get a tolerance to it. And like, you can use fentanyl and not die. If I went and used it, I would definitely die because I have no tolerance. Because I think for a while it was like, you know, there's like that grief aspect of like, what could I have done to make him happier, like, make him feel better. But it's like that's just erasing like all of his feelings almost where like it not. It wasn't so centric to me. Like, it has, it's not like it's almost a self centered thought to be like, I was so important that it's my fault, separating myself and being like he had other feelings that had nothing to do with me. And that was like an easy thing to just be like, I'm upset or sometimes not even. Like, people that I know that have used it and are now like clean off of it are like, no matter what kind of day you're having, it's gonna make it better. You're happy, it's gonna be better. You're celebrating something, you're gonna be even celebrating more. Like, it makes everything better, it makes bad moods better. So no matter what, you know, that's there. And like you were saying, like you feel that and you're like, wow, like, I totally get why people do that.
- [16:41]
A
I think you raised such an important point though, about like those of us left behind and sort of guilt. And I love the way you said it. Like we all think that when we lose someone, right? Like, what could I have done differently? Should I, you know, I do it. Even with Jake that, you know, I mean, he was four, he was sick. Like, I just go over that moment all the time. Like, what if I did this instead? Or what if I did that? But the fact is there's always, regardless of whether it's sickness or addiction or hit by a car or any of those things of it just is, right? Like, so it wasn't on you to fix that or to, you know what I mean? Like, or to be the voice of that at a certain point. Because like you said, like, it's just very egocentric of us to think that we have that control, right?
- [17:20]
B
A hundred percent. It's normal for sure.
- [17:22]
A
It's normal, natural, expected even. But like, it's good to have that like, little switch in your head that can say, wait a minute, this isn't. This isn't on me. Like, this isn't. I couldn't fix this.
- [17:32]
B
I think there's like a middle ground, right? Like, I tend to go like in extremes where I'm like, Everyone's emotions are. They're responsible for. I have nothing to do with it. And then I'm like, I have everything to do with it. It's all my fault. So it's like, there's that middle ground where, like, yes, my actions impact someone's emotions, but that doesn't mean that, like, their reaction should be, like, go to drugs. That's not on me. Like, it's how they deal with it. Like, of course. Of course how we act in the world impacts other things. Like, if, like, you know, my friends that have, like, committed suicide, like, if I called them, maybe something would have been different, but would it have been, like, there's no way of knowing where. It's, like, their action isn't my responsibility. And I think that's something I really, like, learned through death is, like, almost detaching yourself a little bit. Like, not too much because you want to be aware of how you can impact other people, but, like, just allowing yourself grace of, like, you know, if someone hurts me, how I react is my responsibility. Disability, it's not theirs. They aren't doing that to me. Was that a nice thing to do? No. Should they have done that? No. But, like, now I can take that and do what I want with it.
- [18:38]
A
Walk me through that a little bit, if you're comfortable. Like, you guys were together or you were broken up at the time.
- [18:44]
B
Yes. So we were. We were together, but I was reaching a point of, like, trying to detach with love but still be with him, which was, like, a hard balance because I was like, I still want to be your partner, but I need to detach a little bit from your emotions because it drags me in with. With them and because I was getting, like, very consumed by, like, his ups and downs. And, like, again, as a partner, I want to support someone, like, through hard times, that. But I think there's, like, a fine line between, like, supporting them and almost enabling them in a way. And I felt like I was reaching that point. I actually, like, took a trip, which was my main source, I think, of guilt, because we weren't on bad terms, but we weren't on, like, good terms, if that makes sense. Like, we were together for sure, but it was a kind of like, I was like, listen, if we're gonna, like, move in together and, like, continue this thing that we're building, I need to see change, and I need to, like, feel safe in this. That was hard for me to say, but he was really understanding because he always was, especially when he was sober. Like, he Was like, yeah, totally. I get it. You know, I. I need to do this for myself and for us. I was kind of, like, setting those boundaries, which was like, a new kind of concept to me. I was like, I'm going to New York to visit my friend in Buffalo. I need to have some boundaries around our communication. I can't have you calling me, like, freaking out and upset. Like, I need you to, like, respect that. And, you know, we had that conversation, and he was really understanding. That was the weekend that he passed away. So that, you know, I. I was like, let's do dinner on Monday night. Like, let's have, like, a nice, like, us night. But, like, right now I need a break. So, yeah, I got back, and that's when I, like, knew something was wrong when I was in New York for sure, because, like, he wasn't answering me, obviously, and no one had heard from him. Even though it was something that I knew was possible. I never, like, really pictured it, you know? Yeah. I got home, and that's when, like, we found him.
- [20:31]
A
Did you find him?
- [20:32]
B
Yeah. Yeah. It was, like, a little bit removed because I, like, knew something was up. And I called his therapist, and, like, we end up calling the STAR program in Denver, which is like a mental health program, versus, like, the cops. They're just, like, super cool. They show up in normal clothes, and they were, like, with me, talking to me, and I was explaining, and, like, I actually went down to reach Thompson, and I, like, saw him. So, like, it was kind of like finding him, but, like, I wasn't alone, which I'm extremely grateful for now. And then that's when I remember just, like, all I could say and all I could think was, like, this is my fault. Like, if I didn't leave, like, he would be here now, like, his family. Like, how am I going to deal with that? Like, I was so focused on, like, it being me that I almost, like, diminished his whole struggle. I felt like. And that took, like, so long. And I still have, like, moments where I'm like, damn. Like, I wonder if, you know, if I didn't pick that fight about, like, something stupid or, like, you know, like.
- [21:27]
A
You go back or if you win a different weekend or if. I mean, what ifs can kill you?
- [21:31]
B
What if I, like, canceled my trip because I knew, like, you know, he wanted me there? You know, it could have been the next weekend or it could have been, like, 10 times before, you know? Like, I know now that, like, he was a little deceitful with how he was using drugs that Took me a long time to like accept that and be like, I didn't notice. And that's because he was hiding it. And he was hiding it well because he knew how.
- [21:54]
A
We can't always blame ourselves for what we don't see when the person who we're not seeing it with is very much hiding it. Like very much not wanting us to see it.
- [22:03]
B
Which I think I was mad at for a while. I was like, why wouldn't he just tell me? Or maybe if I didn't feel like make him feel shame. But then knowing more, I was like, wow, I wish I practiced more like harm reduction, which is something I really like started learning more about. And I think I thought I knew about it, but didn't I have a way better understanding. But even with harm reduction, you know, you're not guaranteed to save someone. So about like a few months after he died, I lost another friend to an overdose and I did all of the things I wish I did with Shane and he still passed away. So like that was a teaching moment. I did everything that I wish I had done and it still happened.
- [22:42]
A
So changing an outcome is such a huge thing. And it's not, you know, we wish it was easier, right? Like we all wish it was easier. Because if it was easier, you could, we could stop all of these horrible things from happening.
- [22:52]
B
Yeah, I just had to keep reminding myself I'm not that powerful. I think that's a hard thing to like acknowledge.
- [22:59]
A
So you've referenced a couple times like having lost, you know, a good friend who also lost her partner and having lost other people, like that's gotta be hard. Like that's like compound like it's like reliving the same sort of experience over and over. And I'm sure, like it's obviously, it obviously makes you sad, but like does it make you bad or frustrated or especially since you're like, you're doing so well in like your sobriety and in your own personal life. Like how do you balance what's happening around you with what's.
- [23:24]
B
I'm still learning that for sure because it started before Shane where my first big loss was my friend Caleb. And that was an overdose. And I just remember getting that phone call and like no one prepares you for those phone calls calls. Cuz how could you? I just like will never forget that phone call. And it feels like since then I think I've lost like five or six people since then. There's definitely like, you know, the bigger ones. Like obviously Shane was a really big one, but Then my friend Jeff also passed away last summer from suicide. Each time, I feel like it sounds really bad, but I'm almost, like, immune to it in a way. And obviously, I still get sad and it's awful, but the phone call was like, oh, I know now. Like, I know what it's going to be. Which is also bad because now when anyone calls me, I'm like, oh, God. Like, what's. What's happening?
- [24:17]
A
What's next? What's it?
- [24:17]
B
Yeah, Yeah. I think I've. I've just learned a lot through that and, like, how I'm. How I show up for people. So I try to just look at all of my friends as, like, teachers. To me, I've learned the most from losing people than I have. Like, in school, in college, like, in, you know, anything. It's tough, but I think just learning how to carry them through you is really important. And I think people really, like, appreciate that because that's, like, their way of getting to know the people that have shaped you in that way. Having lost so many people, I have found a way to fuel my art and fuel my sobriety and, like, how I show up for the people in my life. I definitely get less upset about stupid things now, like, where I'm like, that's silly. Like, obviously, keep your boundaries. Like, don't let people walk all over you. But, like, if my friend bothers me, I'm going to pick and choose, like, when I'm going to say something. Like, when I am with my friends, I try to be as present as I can be. I've just tried to really separate the grief versus all the good in my life. Like, I have an incredible partner now. He's also three years sober and just, like, amazing. My mom met him, loves him. Like, every single person that has met him loves him. Like, being able to sit in those moments and also acknowledge the bad and, like, let them integrate, I guess it's.
- [25:37]
A
Kind of all we can do, right? Like, I think that it's so important to find that balance. And you had said something that made me think a lot of. One of the things we talk about on the show a lot, you actually said a couple things, but the part about when you suffer loss and when you have, like, big losses, you can get to where you actually think everybody's gonna die, right? Like, where you can live in this space where, like, I have to work really hard not to stay in that dark space of, like, what if this happens again? Or, what if someone else. My brain can go dark so quick. Like, it's scary, you know, but I think that everything you said is important, right? Like, we have the control of our thoughts, and we have to. Like, we can let them in, but we have to balance them. Like, so if Shane is, like, in the room with us right now, or if he's, like, looking over you right now, like, what is he thinking? Like, what. What. What's going on in his head?
- [26:21]
B
That's funny that you asked that, because we were just camping with a bunch and, like, my friend, who also lost her partner was there as well, and, like, we have dark humor, so, like, we'll joke. And I think that's, like, a coping mechanism for sure. We were talking about this the other night because Kelsey, my friend, was talking about how everyone would love my new partner. She was like, everyone loves you. Like, you're awesome. Like, we. Like, you're like, part of our family now, you know? Then we were joking about Shane, and we were like, I wonder how Shane would feel or, like, what he would be thinking right now. And we kind of joke that, like, there's two versions of what he would be thinking because he was extremely protective of me. And, like, if a guy looked at me wrong, he would be upset. You know, I think part of him would, like, hate everything. Like, he'd be like, oh, you're just be super jealous. Yeah. Like, you'd be like, oh, you're just going on with your life without me and just tattooing and I have a cool boyfriend. Like, but I think, like, his ascended, like, now self of, like, whatever happens after you die. Because I don't know what I believe fully, but, you know, I always just say, like, his ascended self would be, like, so happy and so proud and, like, would know that, like, he got me to this point too, because I don't think I would be here without, like, knowing him through life and through his death.
- [27:38]
A
I love that answer because I think that's a super honest answer too. Like, of course he'd be pissed that you're with someone else, you know, like, that's just like, what's that about? But then I think the fact that he probably sees that he's playing a role in this too, you know? And I think in your. I think that's what we can do, right? Like, we keep our people close and we let them kind of, I don't know, help us through.
- [27:57]
B
At first, it was really hard, you know? Like, when I did decide to start dating again, it was, like, hard to detach myself from being the girl with the dead boyfriend. And you know, when do you tell someone that? And when people ask about Thompson, they're like, when did you get him? And I have to either lie or tell them how it happened. And just being thrown into the dating world was an interesting part of grief, too, that I never, never thought of. Because, you know, when you're with someone, I think you're usually like, this is my person. And you. You don't, like, picture yourself outside of that. It was just all consuming. And I think that's really normal at first. Right. But there comes a point where you do kind of have to allow yourself to reenter the world, move forward, and, like, people would be like, you'll move on. And I don't think that's true. And I still don't think that's true. I don't think you ever, like, move on. And I'll always love Shane and, like, I view him as, like, my best friend now. And being able to detach from it a little bit and, like, allowing space to feel it is important. Like, I don't know if you ever watched the show shrinking, but the mom passes away and the girl, like, dedicates like, 15 minutes, and that's her time to just, like, feel it all. And, like, she, like, looks through her mom's stuff and cries and stuff like that. And I almost. I was like, that's actually a really great idea because, like, I don't ever want to push it away. And I think now I have a partner that doesn't do that either because people are weird about it, you know, but he's amazing. And he'll. He, like, wants to know about Shane, and he said he even, like, talks to him, and he's like, I've. I've developed my own, like, little relationship with him. And he's like, sometimes I'm like, you're an idiot. Like, why would you leave this? You know, like, you had an amazing partner and a dog and family that loved you, and you had all of this stuff. And why did you leave?
- [29:39]
A
I think it's so important, and I think it's such a, like, such a sign that you're in, like, a healthy and good space because you're with someone that's also in a healthy and good space. Like, you know, Madison, who is my editor and, you know, was a guest on the show, she talks a lot about, like, her relationship with her ex partner, Regis, and his death and all of that, but he is so present in her current life with her current partner. And I think that. That it's got, like, it's one of the only ways I sort of think moving forward, things can work. Right. Because you can't just compartmentalize your life so much. Like, sometimes you have to compartmentalize a little bit to be able to function and move forward and do your job and, you know, kind of do all of the things you have to do in life. But you have to find that balance of. If you just compartmentalize, then you're not successful either. Because there's always that piece, like, trying to, like, bust out.
- [30:25]
B
Exactly. And I think at first I tried to do that where I was like, this is a new life. None of the past stuff matters. But that's just lying to yourself, you know, because that does shape you. And I think if I don't acknowledge Shane's life and his death, then it's not like it's getting rid of an entire part of myself. I think when people look at me, it's like I am, like, a bunch of pieces of Shane.
- [30:46]
A
I like so many parts about that because it's. I think it's so healthy to, like, embrace all of that. Right. And to, like, embrace the sadness, too. Because it's. I think when we pretend the days don't get dark or sad, that's all that's harmful, too, because that is a piece of who you are, too. Like, you'll always have to live with the sadness a little bit, but you figure out how to live with it and how to, like, when to lean into it and when to not.
- [31:07]
B
You always wish it didn't happen, right? Like, I'm. I'm not like, oh, I'm so glad this happened.
- [31:12]
A
It's funny, I always preface it by saying that to her. Like, I'm always like, I wish I was not as enlightened as hell. Like, I wish I was just living in my little bubble with a lot of Jake, you know, like, yeah, I.
- [31:21]
B
Wish I still had my kid. But, like, I look to, like, transform it and, like, turn it into something bigger, you know, I just feel like turning it into something bigger, connecting with people. Like, there's so much you can do. And I would just, like, lay there and I was like, I'm never going to be the same again. And it was such a negative. Like, I'm never going to be the same again. But that same thing can be like, I'm never going to be the same again in the best way. No, I won't be that person. And that's sad. And I'm, like, grieving myself in a way, too now. I Have all this knowledge that I didn't have before, and if this person isn't alive, I might as well do something good with it.
- [31:56]
A
I mean, that actually, I love that so much, and I've never thought of it like that, but I love when you can take, like, one sentence like that. It can mean such different things.
- [32:03]
B
Exactly. Yeah. Every year I'm going to try to do a flash event where I donate all the money to the harm reduction place that's like, right around the corner and helps people struggling and provide safe resources. And. Yeah, because that's something that's just really misunderstood. And I think putting money into that is really important. And he would have loved that. Yeah. Just, like, thinking about him and being like, what would he want me to do? Like, that was what got me up and was just like, okay, like, I don't want to do this right now, but I'm going to. And then I was like, okay, that felt good.
- [32:33]
A
Like, you do it once and you don't want to do it and you're miserable, but then you're like, wait a minute, I like that feeling better than, like, laying on the couch. So let's keep trying to find ways to do this.
- [32:41]
B
Exactly. Yeah.
- [32:42]
A
I am so grateful for you for agreeing to come onto the show and talk about the things I know they're not easy to talk about. I believe that the audience and, like, the people who are seeking out these conversations are doing it for the same reason you and I are. All of us have some chapter of grief in our life. Right. And if we haven't yet, we are going to. So I think knowing that there is this community, it might not be the same, but the conversations can help. Right. Like, you don't have to have lost your partner to addiction, but you can learn from what you're saying.
- [33:15]
B
It does make it feel more normal when you talk about it. And I think grief can be really isolating. And just allowing it to be more of a community space is really important because like you said, everyone's going to deal with it.
- [33:27]
A
If you. If there are people listening right now who are struggling with addiction, who are struggling with that balance of trying. Trying to stop the thing that they're addicted to, but also stuck in this place of, like, kind of trying to do them themselves and trying to do what they think they can handle, like, what advice would you give to people? Or an advice I always think is hard to give, but, like, what would you say?
- [33:48]
B
I would tell them that, first of all, obviously, it's a little cliche, but they're not alone and leaning in on your community. I think it's really important. And I think something that's also really valuable is keeping really realistic goals where, like, you might not be able to quit right away, right? Like, but maybe tomorrow you won't do as much or, you know, let your friends in on it, like, so you're being safe, like, practicing those harm reduction things so it's like, you don't have to just cut it out immediately because I think that can, can be dangerous too. And I think people put this, like, pressure on themselves, so I think I would just tell them to, like, relieve that pressure in any way they can. But, you know, keep your goal there where you have to be making steps to get to that goal of, like, wanting to be sober. That might not happen all at once. So, like, maybe it's just like they always say in AA programs, like, one day at a time. And I think it's. That's really valuable, removing that shame as much as possible. And like, making attainable goals that aren't extremely out of reach or overwhelming. And just like, remind yourself that you're human and like, you will make mistakes and you might not get it right away, but, like, just keep trying at that.
- [34:56]
A
I love how you have referenced a couple times in, you know, the raising money for it and everything, but I, I'm such a big believer and fan of this idea of, like, harm reduction because I think that when we think people have to go cold turkey, that's how you end up in these cycles of, you know, you're sober and then you fall off the wagon. And not that some people don't benefit from doing it that way, like, but I do think this ide idea of doing, like, a little less each day or, like, figuring out what the path is. And the path doesn't mean that, you know, I get hammered today and then I go into a clinic and I don't ever drink again. You know, like, that there could be this, like, happy medium in the.
- [35:31]
B
That middle ground. And I think that's hard with addiction too, because everything can be kind of black and white where it's like, you're either using or you're not, but I don't think that's necessarily true. And like, even the way I quit drinking this slow and, like, I wouldn't have had any physical symptoms and I wouldn't have died from withdrawal, but I was like, you know what? I'm going to start cutting this out and my goal is to eventually not be doing it anymore. I'm going to take my time and I'm going to make goals that aren't going to make me feel bad about myself if I don't succeed. If you're like, I'm never doing this again, and then you do it again, you're feeding into that, like, mental thing of I failed. Yeah, just especially that kind of like taking it one day and just making yourself get closer to that goal each day. But, like, allowing space to fail, essentially breaking that stigma for yourself and for other people. Because when other people see that and they're like, okay, like, I don't have to just do this all at once and I don't have to do this alone, like, there's other people, because so many people struggle that you would never know. It's not always the people that are obvious. So it's like allowing that to be acknowledged, I think is really important. Then those people that are struggling can talk about it and be like, you know, I really wanted to use today, but I don't want to. So how can I deal with that craving or how can I deal with that feeling? Or can I do a little bit but be in this safe space and have safe supply and be around people that know what's going on. So if something were to happen, like, I am safe and I don't just die, you know, like, almost not othering people, like, putting them in this other category of like, oh, that person's an addict, where it's like, anyone can be an addict. I think just normalizing it more and providing safe spaces for people.
- [37:10]
A
It's like everything we've talked about, right? Like, if we can just like, normalizing having these conversations that are real life conversations. Right? Like, I think society wants everything to sort of fit into, like, a mold. Life isn't that way anymore. Like, like, for. For barely anybody. I've loved this conversation and, And Emma, as like, someone who's known you for, like, a long time, like, I love where you are right now. I love how you did take this, like, you know, these really hard things, and you've turned it into something positive. Right? Like, I. I think you're in, like, a really great place. And that doesn't mean every day is great, but it means that you're. You're in a good place. And I think Thompson making noise during the interview is kind of. I love that. Like, I think it's kind of funny. I think it's a little bit Shane being like, hey, hi, guys.
- [37:52]
B
Definitely. I think even that just acknowledging, like, it can be anyone that's struggling, which we all think about, you know. But if you see me on the outside or, like, even on social media, aside from the fact that I do share about my group grief, it's like, I have a nice partner. I have an awesome job. I'm like living my dream, essentially. But it's like, there are really hard days and I have been through a lot and it might not look like it all the time from the outside, but that's why I think just showing people empathy and kindness is so important. Even that is just important for people to recognize. And I think people talk about that, obviously, but everyone don't just talk about it.
- [38:25]
A
Live it right. Like, live it. Like, be kind. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. Please follow us wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you really like this episode, please share it with a friend. It would make a world of difference if we could just reach more people and share the work that we do and the stories we want to tell. Thank you so much for watching.