Losing the Sister You Thought You’d Grow Old With

Summary

A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast

Episode: Losing the Sister You Thought You’d Grow Old With

Host: Heather Straughter, Jake's Help From Heaven
Guest: Katrina Le Bate
Release Date: April 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on sibling loss—a deeply under-discussed form of grief. Host Heather Straughter speaks with Katrina, whose only sister, Maria, died suddenly at age 30. Together, they explore the unique nuances of losing a sibling, the ever-present "empty chair," how time suspends for the one you've lost, and the coexistence of joy and grief as life moves forward. Katrina shares candidly about honoring Maria’s memory while also giving herself permission to live fully, highlighting that living is itself an act of remembrance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Remembering Maria and Childhood

• Family Life & Sibling Dynamics
  • Katrina describes a "wonderful, loving household" and a childhood filled with typical sibling bickering, family activities, and especially tennis, which was a family passion ([01:53]).
  • "Maria was two and a half years older than me...very involved parents...a united family growing up.” – Katrina [01:53]
• Siblings Finding Their Own Path
  • Despite differences and childhood mimicry (“Stop copying me!”), Katrina always looked up to Maria. ([03:38])

2. The Overlooked Weight of Sibling Grief

• Unique Sibling Loss Experience
  • Katrina explains how losing a sibling is often “the most under talked about relationship” in grief ([03:57]):
    • After Maria’s death, Katrina reflects: “Who am I going to fight with?”—a nod to the unique comfort and safe conflict only siblings provide ([07:16]).
  • The pain of sibling loss is compounded by being “the only one with those childhood memories”—you lose your shared history ([10:29]).

3. The Timing and Impact of Loss

• Loss Just as Adult Friendship Was Blooming
  • Both sisters were entering a new adult phase, planning to live together for the first time as adult roommates when Maria became ill ([05:24]):
    • “Her room was there, it was empty, but kind of just waiting for her to come... We never got to do that.” – Katrina [05:24]
• Permanent Absence & Grief Milestones
  • The permanency of loss—the impossibility of new shared memories and the sadness that milestones will only deepen that sense of absence as years pass ([08:42]).

4. Memory, Identity, and "Frozen in Time"

• Aging Without Them
  • The discomfort and complexity of remembering someone who “stopped aging”—Maria will always be 30, while life accelerates without her ([13:41], [16:26]):
    • “She's frozen in time...what would she like now 10 years later at 40?” – Katrina [14:34]
• Empty Chair and the Unfillable Gap
  • Katrina reads a piece she wrote: “We were sitting at a table for four, and there were three of us... only if I didn’t remember what it really represented.” ([18:41])
    • “It’s like this puzzle piece that was missing... We can never fill that again.” – Katrina [18:50]

5. Navigating Sudden Loss and Medical Complexity

• Maria's Sudden Illness
  • Maria experienced severe headaches, and rapid health decline; within 30 days of hospitalization, she passed from metastatic breast cancer with leptomeningeal spread ([22:16]).
• Katrina’s Dual Role as Sister and Physician’s Assistant
  • She balanced clinical detachment with personal grief. Her medical background gave her access to doctors and understanding, but also a lingering sense of “did we do enough?” ([24:44], [26:57])
    • “I wish I could have just been this ‘regular family member’... I do think it helped, ultimately.” – Katrina [26:20]

6. Survivor’s Guilt & Unique Sibling Dynamics

• Survivor's Guilt & "Being Enough"
  • Katrina discusses the struggle when parents grieve the lost sibling:
    • “When my parents were... missing Maria or being sad that she's not here, that does not equate to me not being enough... You are enough, but you’re not—because someone’s missing.” ([37:20], [38:05])
• Each Loss is Different
  • “We both lost the same person, but we lost someone different because our relationship was different.” ([40:28])

7. Honoring and Carrying Forward

• Keeping Memories Alive & Rituals
  • Katrina’s family recently held a 40th birthday gathering for Maria—both joyful and tinged with doubt, “Would she still have liked her favorite candy?” ([13:41])
• Honoring Maria by Living
  • Katrina describes traveling alone to London—the trip she and Maria had dreamed of—to honor her sister ([41:46], [44:57]):
    • “It was my trip with Maria, and it’s still my trip with Maria... London is mine and Maria’s.” – Katrina [44:57]
• Signs and Symbols
  • "For my mom, she sees a butterfly, and that’s... a representation of Maria" ([45:31]). Both host and guest discuss openness to signals and dream visits.

8. The Coexistence of Joy and Grief

• Grief & Joy: Holding Both
  • Katrina describes marking 10 years since loss and Maria’s “would-be 40th birthday” with a family celebration—shortly before her own engagement ([47:30], [48:39]).
    • “The perfect metaphor of holding... the sadness and the incredible joy comes after loss.” ([51:05])
  • Despite life milestones, grief remains part of the landscape, “an ever fluctuating continuum” ([52:32]).
• Living as Tribute
  • “One of the ways we honor them is by living.” – Heather [54:54]
  • Katrina quotes her fiancé: “‘May we live until we die’... It does help center you.” ([55:05])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Who am I going to fight with?... That safety in your sibling—you can give each other your worst and they still love you.” – Katrina [07:16]
• “She’s frozen in time... We only have who she was when we lost her.” – Katrina [14:34]
• “A piece of us is gone, a piece of me is gone... I just don’t get to be a sister anymore.” – Katrina [18:50]
• “When my parents were missing Maria... That does not equate to me not being enough.” – Katrina [37:20]
• “We both lost the same person. But we lost someone different, because our relationship was different.” – Katrina [40:28]
• “It was my trip with Maria, and it’s still my trip with Maria.” – Katrina [44:57]
• “May we live until we die.” – Katrina quoting her fiancé [55:05]
• “Life is for the living. And one of the ways we honor them is by living.” – Heather [54:54]

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Important Timestamps

• Memories of Maria and Childhood – [01:53]
• Sibling Loss: The Underspoken Grief – [03:57]
• The Pain of Lost Milestones – [08:42], [13:41]
• Being “Frozen in Time” – [14:34], [16:26]
• The “Empty Chair” and Identity – [18:41]
• Maria’s Rapid Decline & Hospital Story – [22:16]
• Navigating Medical Complexity – [24:44], [26:20]
• Survivor’s Guilt & Being Enough – [35:06], [37:20]
• Sibling vs. Parental Loss – Different Griefs – [40:28]
• Signs and Remembrance Rituals – [44:57], [45:31]
• Grief and Joy: Living Fully After Loss – [51:05], [54:54]
• Closing Reflections and Affirmations – [55:05]

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Tone & Final Reflections

This conversation is raw, gentle, and deeply human—validating the confusing coexistence of pain and resilience after loss. Katrina doesn’t shy away from subtle griefs: the yearning to call her sister, the uncertainty of "being enough," and the indescribable moments of happiness that now always carry an echo. Both host and guest embody compassion, emphasizing that honoring the dead means living robustly and making space for joy as well as sorrow.

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For listeners: Whether you are new to loss or decades on, this episode offers affirmation that grief evolves, memory is fickle, and joy is not a betrayal. Balancing the empty chair and new arrivals at the table is possible; life does—and must—go on, carrying the ones we’ve lost within us.

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Full transcript and resources available at Jake’s Help From Heaven.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Heather Straughter, and this is a place of yes. In each episode, we have honest conversations about grief, the messy parts, the unexpected moments, and the ways we begin to heal through heartfelt stories and expert advice. My hope is to offer you comfort, connection, and a reminder that you don't have to navigate this alone. Over the seasons, here at a place of yes, we've had the chance to hear different perspectives of loss within the same family, and. And today we get to do that again. In season three, we spoke with Jim Le Bate at a live recording at Northshire Books in Saratoga Springs about the loss of his daughter, Maria. Today you'll hear from Maria's sister, Katrina. Katrina shares what it's like to lose your only sibling, especially when the loss is sudden, the questions come fast, and the future you assumed you'd share simply stops. We talk about the often overlooked weight of sibling grief, the milestones that resurface the loss years later, and how joy and grief can exist side by side. It's honest, reflective, and deeply human, and I'm grateful to share it with you. Over the seasons, here at a place of yes, we have had the opportunity to share different perspectives of loss for one family. And I always find it so special when we have that chance. And today we get to do it again. In season three, we spoke to Jim Le Bate. It was a live recording that we did at Northshire Books here in Saratoga Springs. And today we are interviewing Katrina, Jim's daughter and Maria's sister. And I'm so grateful for you for being in the. Willing to be on the show and to share your perspective and your story as well. So welcome to the show, Katrina.

[B]

Yeah, thank you for having me.

[A]

So let's start with Maria. And Maria was your sister. Can you tell me just a little bit about her and your childhood, about, you know, what she was as sister, but also just what your everyday lives were like?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So Maria was two and a half years older than me, so we were relatively close growing up. Close in age. You know, we grew up really, truly in a wonderful, loving household. You know, very involved parents, kind of a relatively nothing, you know, relatively simple, very normal, I would say, family life. You know, I. Maria and I were very different. So I think growing up, we had kind of the normal sibling fighting, bickering. Right. You know, normal childhood stuff, of course. But we did. We did a lot together as a family. You know, we grew up. You know, we did a lot of, like, bike riding, playing games together. It was just a very I would say, you know. Yeah, we're very like united family, I guess, growing up. And, you know, as we got older, we kind of both found our, our hobbies and our activities. But we did, we played tennis as a family. My dad was a tennis coach, my mom played tennis. And so we played tennis a lot as, As a family. And we, we actually both played for Shen as well.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

So, yeah, we did that a lot together as well, growing up and that.

[A]

It's always hard, I think. Or not hard, but like, interesting.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Because I feel like everything is quote unquote normal or until it's not. Right. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, so it's like you look back and you're like, no, there's so much to say and nothing to say all at the same time because it was just the life that you knew.

[B]

Right, Exactly.

[A]

And I, I couldn't remember your age differences, so two and a half years.

[B]

Two and a half years old.

[A]

Probably that perfect time for like when you needed a friend, you had like a buddy. But also probably enough distance to be annoying.

[B]

Yeah. And always kind of, you know, as a younger sister. Right. You just want to be like your older sister when you're little. And she'd always get mad, Katrina, stop copying me. And my mom would say, Maria, that's her just trying to. She wants to be like you. You know, it's okay. Let, you know. But of course, she's trying to find her independence. Right. And leave me alone. Don't. Don't do what I'm doing.

[A]

Don't follow me.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Tell me a little bit. You know, I like to talk a lot when it's. It's possible because I do feel like it is the most under talked about relationship. Right. Is like that of sibling losses. Right. It's so many times the focus is on the parents or if there's a spouse or children. You know, I think sibling. So it's what. What stands out the most for you personally as her sister, like after you lost Maria? And we'll get into like the story a little bit, but. But is there, you know, sibling loss? Like, what is that?

[B]

That's a good question. You know, it's interesting. So the timing that it happened. I was 27. She had just turned 30 the day she went into the hospital. Well, actually like a week before she went into the hospital, she had just turned 30. And we. So we were, you know, kind of living our. Not totally separate lives, but. Right. She was living somewhere, I was living somewhere. However, we were Literally just going to be becoming roommates. I had just moved into a new apartment. She was needing a new situation. She's like, hey, what do you think about living together? And it was kind of one of those, oh, I don't know, are we gonna, is that gonna work? And I was like, hey, you know what, we're sisters, let's make it happen. So I had moved in a couple months earlier. She was supposed to move in, I think that like the weekend after she went into the hospital. So I was, I don't know if I knew that.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, her room was there, it was empty, but kind of just waiting for, for her to come. And so, you know, it's such, such a weird, just really strange timing, right, to say we were going to kind of be. Join, entering into this kind of new era as sisters, as adults living together. And part of me, you know, is so sad that we never got to do that. The other part of me is a little bit relieved that I hadn't like fully enmeshed into that day to day life with her again, because I think that would have made that loss even harder. And you know, because there's a loss of something that you have every day and then there's a loss of like this greater loss, the sister loss, the family member. And so that was just kind of a really strange timeline of things.

[A]

I think that's so. That's such a good perspective, I think. You know, I mean, it's. Because it's. It's also interesting, right? Like you are choosing as adults to like, live together and be roommates. You know, like when you're young, you have no choice, like you're under the same roof. Like, it is exactly. It is what it is. But then to like kind of come back together and have, have made this decision. And I think that's really interesting, right? Like, it never, it never happened in its own way. That's because that would have been if you guys were enmeshed in day to day life, like.

[B]

Yeah. And I remember having moments of like, just driving the car, like, oh, I want to tell Maria. Call Maria and tell her something. And then there was that moment of, oh, I can't. And I remember thinking like, this isn't even necessarily something I would have called her for. It was like, it was almost like now that I couldn't, I all of a sudden wanted to that much more. But I remember one of the things I remember thinking shortly after she died was, you know, as somebody who I would say I'm sort of conflict averse in general. I'm not constantly fighting with even friends. Right. I wasn't somebody who was constantly in fights with friends. I remember having this moment of like, who am I going to fight with? And remember thinking, that was like, oh, that's like, that's kind of a weird thing to be thinking. But it was like that safety in your family and your sibling, you know each other so well, you love each other. You. You can kind of give each other your worst. Right. A little bit and know that there's

[A]

still going to be that and they still love you. Yeah.

[B]

And so I remember thinking, like, you know, we're. It's just the two of us, right? So I don't have any other siblings alive. Um, and so I remember having that moment thinking, oh, wow, just a strange thought, but kind of just a real thought of, hey, this is a real part. A part of life and she's not there anymore. Um, so I remember having that.

[A]

I mean, what a real thought.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that's. I feel like with loss in general. Right. And I think you said a couple interesting things because, you know, you're like, oh, I wanna go call her. And then you're like, but wait, would I have called her? Like, is this something I would have

[B]

called her for before?

[A]

But I. But I think that those. That's the weird thing with loss, right? Is it's just like now that you can't.

[B]

You want to.

[A]

Now that you can't and you never can again. Right? Like, that's the piece. I think that it's just. It messes with your mind a little bit.

[B]

Like, totally.

[A]

We've had so many guests on here who just like the permanency, right? Like, it's the permanency. It's not like a vacation. It's not just a illness that she bounces back.

[B]

Like it's just forever and having those thoughts, you know, I think one of the things is I remember thinking again, especially because we hadn't had that chance to be living together, to be kind of back in each other's every. We saw each other pretty regularly, but not every day. Um, I remember thinking like, this is hard. This is incredibly difficult. Very, very sad. But I remember thinking, I know there are gonna be moments where it gets harder later, you know, thinking as we're going through those milestones in life, the things that she's supposed to be there for and that she's. She should be experiencing her own, you know, ongoing, you know, dating, getting married, having children, even Thinking as we're aging, right. Going through potentially, like, oh, if, you know, when my. When our parent. When we lose our parents. Right. Things that your sibling is supposed to be there for. So remember having those thoughts of kind of like those things that we are supposed to age together that I think continue to bond and just deepen that sibling relationship. Thinking, oof. Like, there are going to be times where this just resurfaces and just gets harder. Right.

[A]

Which I think grief does. And I think you're so right in that. And it's. This is not the same at all. But you made me think of something like, so I'm an only child. And I have always said, you know, you only know the life, you know. Right. Like, so, you know, my husband is the youngest of five, so he grew up with siblings and all of that. And, you know, people are like, oh, do you like being an only child? And I was always like, but they'd ask me that as a kid and I was like, well, I don't know. I don't know any different. Right. Like, right, sure. But I have said the hardest thing I think about being an only child is being an only child adult.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because all of those things that you are talking about are just, you know, as your parents age, as things, as all of those, like, milestones happen, good and bad, you're sort of navigating them alone.

[B]

And you only have your memories.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You can't say, maria, do you remember this? Like, am I remembering that right? How do you remember it? And there's definitely moments or even I'll be with, you know, our extended family and my mom and her siblings are all talking about their childhood and people, they remember different things. I'm like, oh, I'm the only one that's going to have these memories. And that's. That's a sad thing to think about, right. That, you know, because, you know, everybody has different memories of their childhood of the same memory.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And kind of learning to blend those as adults and say, wait, you liked that? Or no, that I thought that was terrible. Or, oh, that's not what. How I remember it at all. Or even just remembering people and things that you did. And yeah, it's a, it's just an interesting.

[A]

And how different those can be. Right. Like, sometimes I can be like, no, a hundred percent, this is how it happened. And then someone else is like, what are you talking about?

[B]

And both versions are like, totally true. Because that's how you remember them. Right. It's so wild.

[A]

But I hadn't Thought about it, like, epithet is. Yeah.

[B]

And I remember thinking, too, you know, again, I was 27, she was 30. I felt like we were really getting to that part in life where we were learning to become adult friends. Right. You kind of, again, you're growing up, you're different, you're fighting, you're. Oh, I want you to be something different. I want you to be this. I want you to be this. And, you know, I feel like we were just really coming into our own as individuals, right. As we're, you know, growing into our mid to late 20s. And so I remember just feeling really sad. Like, I felt like we were getting back to that point of, hey, you're each going your own way. You go to college or you're starting your career. Starting to really find ourselves as adults and feeling sad that we were missing out on that chance to really, like, find that adult sister friendship. Yeah, Like. Like, you're right.

[A]

Like a true adult friendship. It's not about the like. And at a certain point, the age doesn't matter anymore. Right. Like, you know, at certain points in your relationship, you were much younger or, like, different places in life, but whether you're. When you're 28 and 31, you're like

[B]

the kind of the same. Right?

[A]

Same age.

[B]

Yeah. And that just kind of having all, like, the feeling, that sadness of not being able to do it. I mean, you're learning to appreciate each other's differences, right. When before, you kind of don't know how to navigate those. Like, why don't you want to do the same thing I want to do? And why aren't you handling this the same. Same way I do. And then also having those moments of, you know, was I a good enough sister?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Wishing, you know, you look back and say, oh, you know, I wish I could have learned to appreciate that sooner. I wish she knew how much I loved this. Or, you know, you look back and all the things that are just normal things that everybody has in normal family dynamics, but you don't have a chance to either. One, work through things that might be existing, or two, just live on into that life that, you know. Yeah, that's a sad thing to think about.

[A]

It is such a sad thing about loss. Right. Is that you don't. It's like we said before, the permanency of it, but it's like, you don't get. Because some things aren't. You know, it forces you. You don't have more experiences, so it forces you to, like, relive the ones you have and Then it opens it up to questioning and all of that.

[B]

And as you're growing and continuing to grow and change. She's still 30, right? We only have so many years of. She stopped. She has stopped aging. Right. Recently. We actually just. This end of January marked the 10 years since she has. Since she died. And then December would have been her 40th birthday. So we had, you know, a big family get together at my house and just had lots of people here, and it was just so lovely to have everybody here. And my cousin had come and was, you know, kind of just hoping, put some stuff together, and she said what was, like, Maria's favorite candy, and maybe we can kind of just serve that. And it was an interesting thing to, one try to remember. Right? And say, yeah, I think this is what it was. But then also that moment of, what if I'm wrong? What if I'm remembering this wrong? And that moment of, would she still like this 10 years later? Right. I mean, are we. You know, we're. We only have who she was when. When we lost her, and it's just

[A]

like she's frozen in time.

[B]

Yeah. It's just kind of an interesting thing to think. Like, what would she like now 10 years later at 40? Just kind of a strange thing to. To think about. And yet honoring and remembering who we knew and who. Who she was.

[A]

And that's all you can do. Right? And you know that I remember when I was talking to your dad and reading his book as well, when he talks about the pictures you and her would do. A picture on Christmas.

[B]

Was it Christmas Day?

[A]

Yep, Christmas Day, Christmas Day. And there's. So there's all of those years of pictures, and then there's not. You know, and that's. It's like it freezes. Right? And I am. Pictures, for me, have always been such a, like, hard thing, too. Cause it's like, you know, in one wall of our house, I have all of Ethan's pictures, you know, from, like 2 years old when he was in, like, I don't know, twice a week school or whatever that was when you're little, you know, and all the way to, like, high school senior. And for Jake, there was. There's just one picture because he was just in a program. Was in a program one year, and it's in a different spot, but it's. It's like it does. It just stops. And it does make you. I think those are such great, valid thoughts, though. And it keeps her present. Right. Like, you know, and I. I love that you had a 40th birthday for her. I think that's.

[B]

Yeah, it was. It was just a really sweet kind of moment to have everybody here and. Yeah, people.

[A]

Did your parents love it?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, they were. Yeah, it was really. It was really nice. Yeah.

[A]

It's always hard. And this is. Might be a weird question, so do with it what you like.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like. Like, do you think of her now as like, is she forever 30 or has, like. I mean, she just. You just celebrated her 40th. But, like, where. Where do you fall in that? Like, how does that.

[B]

That's a good question. I mean, I think so. Right. And I think maybe because kind of 30 to 40, me being 27 to 37, I feel like that's sort of still a similar stage of life that I don't totally feel like I have aged so far out of where she was. Right. So maybe. Maybe that will feel different as I get older. Right. To say, wow, she's still here. But also maybe. Yeah. I don't know. That's an interesting question. It's hard. Yeah.

[A]

I struggle with it myself, just with Jake, because I was like, you know, he was. I kind of called him forever four, but then it just seemed so weird as Ethan got older. And now Ethan's 21, and he's like, you know, an adult grown person. So it's weird. Like, I'm like, Jake's not four. Like, he's.

[B]

He's.

[A]

What is he, 20? Yeah, he's got to be 20, you know, like. But it. I don't know. I struggle with.

[B]

And it's hard.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Do you want to fill in the gaps of what they could have been and yet we don't know. Right. Is it better to. To not to just wonder? And maybe there's. I don't think there's a right answer to that. Right. But no, no.

[A]

And I think there's probably not even a permanent right. You know, I mean, like, it could, like you said, like, maybe when you're older, you need her to be.

[B]

Yeah, I bring a couple years, like, I don't know, do I bring her into my 70s with me, right. And say, we're here. This is it, here, we here. Which is weird to even think about at this point, but. Yeah, that's an interesting question. And I think, you know, I think, too, there's. There is. There's just that. Always that missing piece. Right. Actually, at her. The celebration that we had. You know, I actually had found a piece that I had written shortly after she passed. About the first time I went to dinner with my parents without her. And it was kind of like this picture of, okay, we were sitting at a table for four, and there were three of us. And I had written, you know, if anybody walked in, it looked normal. Yep, great parents and their daughter at dinner. And it. And we had a nice dinner. You know, it was. It was nice. And I said, but only if I. If I just didn't remember what it really represented, right? This was our family dinner. Now, she wasn't just not there. She was never going to be there again. And just kind of writing about kind of that missing. That missing. Or that empty chair.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That we can't fill again with her. And I kind of, you know, likened it to, like, this puzzle piece that was missing. And we had this whole puzzle, and somebody took this piece out and how we can never fill that again. And yet there are so many other pieces of our lives that are still here, New pieces that will get added, right. That we'll never have gotten to meet her. Um, but, yeah, just kind of that realization of, like, wow, a piece of us is gone, A piece of me is gone. Um, and now having, you know, gone on and, you know, now with my. My boyfriend and he hasn't. He never got to meet her, right? And kind of knowing that he doesn't get to meet the whole me, you know, kind of that idea of, like, we are our family, we are. Who are people that created us. And it's just. It's a kind of strange and sad thing. And I've been so grateful for the moments. Even something like this, my dad's book, things that have been able to give him a glimpse into her life, into our life. And he, you know, after he read it, he actually was like, this is an incredible gift that your dad gave me. Meaning, you know, Dan, to get to see this life that many people don't get. Right? So, you know, really neat that my dad wrote that book to fill in some of those pieces that he'll. He won't get to see. And so that, I think, is one of the things for me that's. That's hard, right, to know that, you know, you don't. He doesn't get to feel. See that whole picture, see me as a sister, right. He never will get to experience me as a sister. And I just don't. I just don't get to be a sister anymore. And I think that is a strange loss. And I have so many wonderful friends and cousins and people who kind of fill that role in such an incredible way. And yet that, you know, my sister,

[A]

like, it's still missing. Yeah. And it's. And you're right. Like, it's. There's no real window. And I. I think the book. I think talking about it, I think all of these things are like windows. But, like, there's no. There's no way for other people to know that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, to know that part of you. Of it. You know what I mean? Because it's almost like what we were just talking about. Like, memories, shared memories are still sometimes two different memories. You know what I mean? Like, so even some things that you might remember that you're not able to discuss, obviously, with Maria, but if you discussed it with your parents, they might. That's two different perspectives, Right.

[B]

They remember it as a parent of a child, not a sibling and. Yeah. So just all those things, those moments, those things that we can't ever fully fill back in. It's just kind of a. Yeah.

[A]

That's 100% reality. I think when you were talking about that first dinner. Right. And I've talked to a bunch of people in grief and. And. But also just in. Not even just in grief, like, really just in life. It's like if you knew it was gonna be the last thing. Right. Like, there was one time when you went out as a family of four.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you didn't. And then you didn't again. And then you went. The next time you went to dinner, it was a family of three. And it's. I don't know. Like, I never know what to do with that. I get, like, kind of in my head about it. Right? Like, what can you do? You can't do anything. But it's. It's such a life lesson, right? Like, it's really that about. You never know. And that kind of leads into Maria's story, right? Because she was 30 and she was. You guys, like, she was not sick her whole life. She. It hit pretty quick. And can you walk us through that a little bit? Because I think that's another piece that's hard. It's not like you were living with a sister who was sick. You were.

[B]

Yeah. So she had started getting headaches, and she, you know, she did struggle a little bit with some. Some pain, but was again, independent, functional, working, you know, and started to get headaches. Saw the doctor, you know, it's migraine. Okay. Wasn't going away, went to an urgent care. Same thing this is. Migraines just kept getting worse and worse and weaker. And we were kind of like, what. You know, what's going on. You know, actually on her birthday. So December 21, we were going to have dinner at my parents, and she was there, and she was just. She was laying on the couch. You know, she couldn't even eat with us, and she just felt so bad. And then again, just continued. Didn't get better, kept getting worse. And Christmas Day, I was actually working at the hospital, and my parents and my sister went to. Well, actually, no, I'm sorry. My mom went to our Christmas gathering, which was only about 10 minutes away from our house with our extended family. My dad stayed home with Maria. Cause she really wasn't feeling well. And he called me at work and said, hey, Maria, you know, she's just kind of losing her vision. I was like, okay, well, listen, that's not good. I'm kind of running through my head as a. As a medical person of like, what could this be? What can be done? Come to the er. Don't come to the er. Right? And then, you know, I. So at that moment, I said, okay, let's kind of watch. Let's see what happens. Obviously, something's. Something's going on. I. Shortly after, you know, when I finished my shift, I went to the Christmas gathering. Probably 10 minutes after I got there, my dad called and, you know, said, maria, vision is still off. And I think she had maybe lost consciousness or was, like, heading towards that. And I was like, call 911. We just have to go to the hospital. And so my mom and I quick drove home, and I think my dad went to the. In the ambulance with her, and my mom and I drove to Albonimad. And so that was Christmas Day right after she had turned 30, 10 years ago, and she never came home. And it was a whirlwind of. From admitted to the hospital to when she passed was 30 days. And it took, I think, about three weeks to actually figure out what was going on. It was, you know, just hard. Hard to diagnose what, you know, what was happening. And ultimately, after multiple tests, more scans, we found that she had had metastatic breast cancer, which had spread to the fluid around her brain.

[A]

Unbelievable.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So you had referenced. You know, you're a medical professional, so you're a physician's assistant. Correct, Correct.

[B]

So

[A]

how was navigating all of that? Yeah, you know, so, like, you're not just. You're not just a sister and a family member there. You're also like.

[B]

Yeah, it was definitely an interesting dynamic, which I think sort of allowed me to navigate it in a way that kept Me, very. Just kind of level, which I think is sort of by nature how I am anyway, not overly, you know, emotional and reactive, but also kind of in this. Okay, what is going on? Right. I'm talking to some of my colleagues. Hey, here's what's going on. Again, not expecting that this is life threatening. Although as it went on, we started to, you know, of course, get more and more concerned. We start to. Yeah. The first neurologist who saw her, I actually knew from a previous job when I worked in a neurology office. And so that was kind of a nice connection to be able to talk to him on sort of a more than just a doctor family member level. You know, he was wonderful and, you know, talking to me and, you know, gave me his cell phone number. So, you know, having some of that connection was really nice to feel like I had even just more access. Right. So many family members just feel very lost and very, you know, not getting answers. And then again, having enough knowledge to know what was going on, what was, you know, the test they're talking about, the diagnoses they're considering. I, you know, I think. I do think it helped in some way. Again, I think it also probably made me or forced me or maybe it was just a kind of a coping mechanism to sort of process this in a little bit of a clinical way, which I don't know if that's good or bad.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Sometimes I look back.

[A]

That's actually what I was wondering.

[B]

Yeah. Sometimes I look back, I'm like, I wish I could have just been this sort of like. No, just regular family member. Right. Um, and I don't know what that would look like because I've been in medicine for my whole adult life. I do think ultimately it was. I'm grateful that I had that. That I could be that additional support from my parents that I could. I had connections to other doctors to say, hey, here's what's going on. What do you think? You know, and when we got more information that kind of just helped confirm what we knew, that this diagnosis was as severe as we were being told.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And to kind of get those extra opinions that everybody feels like they want.

[A]

Right.

[B]

To say, hey, is this really it? Are we missing something? So I do think it kind of gave that extra peace of mind. Yeah.

[A]

So much of, like, hospitalizations for those of us who've experienced them and stuff. Like, it happens quickly and there's always. I don't think it's intended, but there's this assumption that, you know, that people Know what doctors are talking about or what they mean or what, you know, like, there's just that. And I remember when Jake was first in the hospital, we didn't know anything. I didn't even know what they meant. When they said, like, oh, we need to do a blood draw. I was like, what do you mean?

[B]

Like, you know, there's just things that we think every. You think people know and they don't because it's like another language.

[A]

People don't. It is another language, and when you're in it for so long, you know, you're fluent in it. But a lot of the people who come through are not. So I. I would imagine for. For your parents, for sure, and for, like, stuff like, just. It's almost like having, like, a translator, you know, like, you were able to say, like, this is what they're doing. This is why they're doing it. And I suspect that probably made a big difference.

[B]

And I remember, you know, at the time, I was working as a hospitalist, so seeing a lot of very sick patients.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I remember at one point, my sister. We had met with the oncologist, and we're kind of at this point of, hey, we could try to pursue this treatment, but ultimately this was not really treatable. Right. We knew that ultimately she was not gonna survive long. And I remember she was too, you know, incoherent to talk when the doctor was there. And then she kind of came to later on, and I was sort of having this, like, conversation with my sister about, hey, here's what's going on. And, you know, her response was, I'm too young to die. And. Cause the decision was, do we try this treatment or do we focus on keeping you comfortable? Right. A conversation I have had with patients and now in my current job is a huge part of my job. I just remember thinking, like, I'm not supposed to be having this with my sister. I shouldn't. I'm not supposed to have to, but I'm glad that I can. Right. I was glad that I was able to present that to her. But just to hear her say that, you know, I'm too young to die.

[A]

I mean, I would imagine that's a moment that will never go away. Right?

[B]

And then knowing that she. Ultimately, we couldn't pursue treatment. She was in too much pain. She was really, ultimately too sick to even pursue the option. That was sort of that one last thing to try, and she was really not able to even be aware of that. I don't think.

[A]

How does it feel? So I talked a little bit with your dad about this, and I think I'm trying to be, like, sensitive about it because it's so easy to have to get angry on someone else's behalf. And sometimes it's not appropriate. Right. You know what I mean? But I can only imagine. I don't know if anger or frustration, but it's one thing to think, okay, my sister. My daughter is having really debilitating migraines. Right. Her vision's messed up. Something's going on. But in your head, they're like, we're gonna figure this out. She needs a medication or she. I don't even know what to say, but, like, you're not thinking that she's not coming home.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, I suspect that was not in anybody's radar. And then as I remember in your dad's book, he references like, oh, you know, we thought we were gonna get home. And, you know, like, they went home sometimes. Cause they thought, like, nobody recognized it for the suddenness or the severity. I don't even know what that word is. But, yeah, you know, like you said

[B]

earlier, again, there was all different diagnoses being thrown around and. Right. Some kind of came up that may have been. Okay, that's going to be tough. It might be a lifelong thing for her. Okay. But we're here, you know, we'll work through that.

[A]

Lifelong.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Again, the differential diagnosis. Right. X, Y, it could be abc. Right. Let's work towards figuring it out. And then. Yeah, once we figured out what it was, it was just, we. We can't even get her home. And she just wanted to go home, you know, and so I think that's something that was hard. I know it was really hard for my mom to not be able to bring her home. Right. But she ultimately was in too much pain. We needed to, you know, keep her comfortable. So, yeah, I mean, it is. It's. You know, you just wish you could. There was more you could do.

[A]

Those are the moments, right. When you wish you had, like, the crystal ball or you had something to be like, how does it. You know, And I don't know how to, like, how does it. As a meta. As a physician's assistant, and you said, you know, you have these conversations now. Does your personal experience, like, does it. How do you handle it? Like, do you. Do you think you do it? Do you think that makes it. Is that part of your job that you think you're really good at, or is it just excruciatingly hard or both?

[B]

Yeah. You know, I Think I do. I think it helped. I think it helps make me better at my job, you know, have extra empathy. I don't always necessarily bring that up that it happened, you know, because I don't want to put, you know, in those moments. I don't want to put my story in their story.

[A]

No, no, no, of course.

[B]

But I do think that it helps. Yeah. Just kind of knowing that, hey, I have gone through something like this.

[A]

You've been on that side.

[B]

Yeah. And just kind of being empathetic to wherever Roller coaster and wherever they are on that wave of emotion, wave of acceptance, wave of, you know, acknowledging where things are at. Yeah. I mean, I think it has to have. I hope, you know, give me some extra in that compassion and perspective and. And, you know, once in a while it will come up as a shared story. I think it used to. More when it was fresher than it does now. Again, trying to be sensitive to figuring out when is at the right moment to bring that up. Right.

[A]

No, but I'm sure, like, it's just. You don't even have to say it, but like, you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and people may not know why, but they're like, oh, she gets it.

[B]

Or that must come across what they need in that moment and knowing, you know, what it can feel like to not have the answers to. And maybe we don't have the answer yet. To be able to sit with them in that and kind of help them process that. Yeah.

[A]

Do you. And I say this totally respectfully because I think like, one of my struggles with Jake and, you know, Jake's been gone 15 years now, but we never got, like. I still, all these years later, don't have a diagnosis. I don't know what caused that initial seizure. We. It's interesting. I was reviewing. I used to write him letters and I'm working on kind of this project now, and I was. I was rereading some of these letters. And I will tell you, that's the first time in, like, some of these letters I started writing when he was still alive. And I just. In the last two weeks, I started rereading them. So. Whatever. It's just like a weird, weird thing that I'm doing a whole, like. I don't even know where to go with that. But one of them talked about. And I had completely forgotten this. This was like folded off into some corner of my brain that I don't. Whatever. We had an. There was supposed to be an appointment with. There was a geneticist that was still actively, actively, like, this is he died in December, and this was in November.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, was trying to figure out, like, I think we're getting close to diagnosis. This, like, specialist was taking him on as a patient. All of this stuff. They thought, you know, there was definitely something wrong with his white matter in his brain. They thought it was all of these potential different things. And I didn't. I said, you know what? We have to, like, I'm not coming back to Boston three weeks in a row with. It's too much on him. We are already there two times next month. We will fit us in. Then, like, I kind of was, like, had to advocate a little better.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So he was supposed to have an appointment December 13th. He died December 8th.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And that was like, with this big time. Like, who was. I don't know. And it doesn't matter. Like, it is what it is. But I think about sometimes about, how can I be. How could I have been working with these amazing doctors, like, wonderful people and stuff? And I. But I get angry because I'm like, how did you screw this up? Like, how couldn't you? Not that they screwed it up, but, like, how did you.

[B]

But we want answers, right?

[A]

You know, we want answers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And did you struggle with that? Do you struggle with that? Like, if you'd only gotten an answer earlier, would it have changed her course, or could she have come home? Like, and those are impossible questions. But, like, I just.

[B]

I think, you know, knowing ultimately what the diagnosis was and kind of where things are at, I think. I don't think earlier, like, it when it presented, it was there. Right. Again, the 30 days, it was so quick. I don't think that it would have changed. But I do sometimes wrestle with, did we do the right thing? Even though there was really no other option. Right. And so, again, being in the place with having as much information as I possibly could have, I still sometimes wonder, did we do the right thing? Did we try hard enough? Was there something else we should have done? And I think that also gives me empathy for families saying, who just want to try to do everything right. And again, knowing that there was nothing else. Yeah, but you do. The surviving Flame members are always constantly going to be wondering, especially as a mother. Right. What could I have done after my son? Did I do something and my mom would still be here? Would Maria still be here?

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, whoever the loss is. And I think that's what our brains do. Right. We want to find. It is easier to find an answer. And so then we are looking to place blame somewhere right?

[A]

Well, because then it's like you're just pushing it somewhere else instead of.

[B]

Yeah. So I think it's something that our brains are going to constantly wrestle, and we, as the people, you know, surviving, have to figure out a way to cope with that. Or it will probably.

[A]

Or it can affect you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's. That's a big part, I think, of that, the survivor piece. Right. Something I've learned is a little bit of that, like, survival guilt and what that looks like, what that means, how to navigate that. You know, I think one of the pieces you mentioned that a lot of times that sibling loss doesn't get mentioned, or people kind of ask the surviving sibling, how are your parents? I. I maybe experienced that a little bit, but I do think, you know, I think a lot of people were also very sensitive to asking how I was and which was really wonderful. But I think as a sibling, one of the things that I had to wrestle with is that when my parents were and, you know, still are missing Maria or being sad that she's not here, that does not equate to me not being enough. So I think that something that a sibling loss can experience is, you know, when they're. I wish Maria was here. Or Maria would have liked this. Or so.

[A]

And so, like, how do you not internalize that?

[B]

Yeah. Which is, of course, them connecting and trying to keep Maria here.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I want to do the same thing. And yet sometimes I remember having those moments of like, well, but I'm here. Is that not enough? Right. And. But I know that it is. Right. I mean, I know how much I mean to my parents and they mean to me. And again, it's just our brains doing the human thing. Right. So I think that's something that's an. Probably an interesting aspect of sibling loss, of wanting to still be enough even though you are enough. And it's not enough. Right. Because there is a missing piece that. That is gone, and that's a hundred.

[A]

The way you said that, I think is perfect. It's like, you are enough, you know, but you're not. Because someone's missing.

[B]

Yeah. And I cannot ever fill that role. Yeah. And I don't need to.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And my parents don't expect me to. I mean, they. They're wonderful. And I don't say that at all to be.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

They never want. You know, that was never the intention. Right. But it's. It is just sort of when somebody says, oh, this is really wonderful, and you're kind of Thinking, well, what about that? One thing being wonderful doesn't take away the other. Yeah. Or you're missing something. It doesn't mean that what's here isn't good. Right. So I think that's an aspect that I have to imagine other siblings have probably experienced a hundred percent that is kind of unique to that. Yeah.

[A]

I think it's, you know, and it's as a parent, you know, with, with two boys, one here, one not, I try sometimes to be cognizant of it, but it's also hard. Like my entire living really is running a foundation in Jake's memory is having these conversations about grief. You know, like it's, it's kind of, you know, a full time job trying to keep him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

His memory alive. Right. You know, but it certainly, I can, you know, as the mother can say, it has absolutely zero to do with Ethan being enough or not being enough or any of that. Like, not even the same thing.

[B]

You know, And I think that I,

[A]

I do worry about it sometimes and

[B]

I think I was more sensitive to it earlier on as well. You know, I think you kind of, you work through all of that. Right. And.

[A]

Yeah. Well, and it's such human nature. Right. Like, because probably. And again, you know, I'm an only child, so maybe I'm saying this total wrong. And you're like, heather, no, you obviously don't have siblings. But like, even when you were, when you were just kids playing, right. Like, if your parents were like, oh, Maria did such a great job on this, then you're like, well, what about me?

[B]

Like, that's just the natural siblings, I guess, the rivalry, the competition. Right. That isn't competition. But it feels like it as a

[A]

child, but it feels like it. And I think it's that same piece just coming out very differently. But it's that same. But hey, what about me? I'm right here, you know, like, there's so many levels of it and, and

[B]

just knowing that nothing can replace that. Right. And also I think I've, as I, as the years have gone on, I think I've become a little bit more sensitive. I don't have children of my own, but trying to become a little bit more sensitive to like, what that must feel like. Right. You know, I, I lost my sister and my parents lost their daughter.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We both lost the same person, but we lost someone different, you know, and we're. Because our relationship was different. And so it's why I love talking

[A]

to multiple family members, because I think it is. You lose the same person. But the losses are very different. You know, they just are. Like, it's. And I just. Of course it is. Right.

[B]

There's lost their friend.

[A]

Even with my husband and myself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, even both Brian and I lost our child. But it's different. The dad son versus the mother, son.

[B]

Yeah. Just the relationship you had with that person. Everybody has a different one. Yeah. And they know a different part of that person in a different way.

[A]

Yeah. I was thinking of what you said, and it. Two things you said that have kind of kept coming back to me. One is when you talk about what you wrote after she died, and you sort of called it, like, the empty chair.

[B]

And it's.

[A]

You know, there's part of that that is always like, now I'm gonna get corny. But, like, it's like, the chair is very symbolic. Right. Like, it's going to be empty now. But in some ways, like, do you still, like, if you sit down with your parents and there's four table. Like, four seats around the table, like, and not that you have to do this all the time, like, whatever, but it's almost like there, you know, I mean, like, it's like kind of like, do you ever think of her? Like, hey, she's. She's checking in on us. She's watching over. Like, do you have that kind of relationship with her or do you keep it separate? You know what I mean? Like, do you feel like she's present and I'm hot and cold? Like, I'm always like, oh, hey, Jake's here. And then other times, I'm like, where's he? I haven't seen him in a while. Like, I don't know.

[B]

I think there's definitely moments where it's the more constant thought and others where, like, you know, life is. Keeps going, keep going, keeps developing. And yeah, there's moments where I do find myself, like, thinking about her more or talking about her. And then when you. There's also those moments of, my God, have I been thinking, like, why did I not think about her as much recently? Like, is that okay? Am I okay? Yeah. And trying just to let that go and say, nope, this is okay. This is life. You're. You know, you're. Ultimately, life does go on as hard and as weird as that feels. Right. You kind of. And, you know, I was 27 when she died. You know, knowing that there is a. Hopefully a lot of life ahead and figuring out how do I navigate this to keep her memory alive, keep all of that and continue my life. And I remember Actually, I think at. When you interviewed my dad, I think you asked him about holidays, right? And kind of what looked like. And I actually remember thinking, so my parents, I think he kind of said that they really didn't set up a Christmas tree anymore. It was kind of too hard. And I remember feeling the opposite, thinking, if I don't put up a Christmas tree this year, I don't know how I'll get back to it. Like, I remember being afraid of if I don't celebrate this year, maybe that's it. Like, I. I remember kind of thinking, I have to just keep doing this so that I can keep doing it. Keep doing it. Yeah. And so, again, everybody's going to make kind of those decisions differently. Again, for me, thinking, like, I have a lot. I have a lot of years and a lot of holidays to figure out how to navigate that. And so I think for me, that was something that I intentionally was like, no, I need to keep trying to find joy in this and whatever that looks like. You know, I think that first year, my parents and I just, like, got an Airbnb and kind of went away for the weekend. Kind of like, let's just get out of here. Let's do something different. But, yeah, I think. Yeah, I think it looks different in different seasons. Shortly after, I actually took a vacation that Maria and I were kind of, or in the very early stages of thinking of taking a trip together. And she wanted to go to London. And so I ended up taking our trip by myself. And I did, at that time, do a lot of writing kind of to Maria about Maria. And I did find, like, I was talking to her that whole time. And I think that was something that was really special. One, it was the first trip I had taken by myself, which kind of was, in and of itself, a whole experience. But then also to have that moment of, hey, this is my trip with Maria, and it's still my trip with Maria. There's nobody else here kind of inserting their wants and wishes on this trip and remember thinking, okay, Maria, I hope that I'm making this trip what you would've wanted it to be. And so that was actually a really special thing that I did. I think it was actually maybe either that first year, the year after she passed, I actually have chills.

[A]

I think that's so beautiful. And I think that's so amazing that you did that. I really, like. I think that's really neat.

[B]

And I just remember meeting a woman, I think, on, like, a bus, you know, airport transfer kind of thing, and she's like, oh, where are you going? And her name was Maria. And I just remember thinking. I was like, oh, okay.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

And I was like, okay, Maria's here. We're going to London, you know, and so that was just a really special trip for. For so many reasons that I will always have. And in my mind, London is mine and Maria's. Right. And, yeah, it was just very special.

[A]

Yeah. So I think that's such a beautiful way to a. Probably for your own healing, but also for honoring her and that it's. I love that you just said that. It's still. And I'm like, witchy enough where I'll be like, that was Maria. She's like, hey, I'm glad you're doing greater than me. You know, it was funny.

[B]

I was never somebody. Like, I hear kind of people say, oh, so and so. Came to me in a dream, or I heard. And my just growing up as a child, that was not what I was really drawn to. I was like, oh, yeah, well, maybe. But then I see. I'm like, yeah, sure. I don't know. It was. It wasn't. It's whatever you need it to be, right? And I think I. I had lots of dreams about Maria or lots of things that I could just. Again, well, that. That was Maria, you know, for my mom, she sees a butterfly, and that's like a kind of. She thinks of Maria. It's kind of a representation of Maria. And so you. Do. You become more sensitive to things that you used to be like, oh, that's kind of weird.

[A]

I used to laugh. Like, I'd be like, what are you talking about? And now I'm like, all in. I'm like, oh, no.

[B]

You know, and it's. I think you make what you need it to be in that moment. Right.

[A]

I had a guest on here, and he. It was another one of these. It was Olivia Allen's father. And I have interviewed the mother, the sister, the friend. Like, you know, we kind of did the whole. And he. His word. He said, you know, we were talking about the same thing. Like, you know, how do you know Liv's with you? Or what's your relationship like now? Like, that kind of thing. And he said, you know what? Basically, he was like, what's the downside? Like, if I talk to her when I'm in my car, like, if she's there, like, what's the downside?

[B]

There's no downside.

[A]

And I just love the way there's no downside. So it's like, If I don't know, was that woman was a total coincidence or was it Maria?

[B]

It doesn't matter. It's whatever you want it to be. It doesn't matter.

[A]

It's whatever you want it to be. And I just love the way he said it. Cause he's like, what's the downside? And if I think every time I see a cardinal, it's Jake, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but who cares? Like, yeah.

[B]

And it kind of keeps. It's those reminders, especially in those moments of maybe when life has gotten busy or, you know, especially, you know, your son is growing, he's becoming his own person. There's so many things, right. You're. And it's kind of that moment of, oh, that's right. Here he is. Right? Not that we ever forget the person we know. We've never forgotten them, but it is kind of that reminder that brings them into our current lives.

[A]

Current.

[B]

Yeah. One of the things. Actually, the timing of this podcast is very interesting because so, you know, we had Maria's the 40th, the 10 year celebration just probably three weeks ago. So it's kind of in that, like, remembrance space. Right. I went back and read some of the things. We had pictures. It was sort of this moment of I had like my first cry the night before that I was like, wow, I haven't actually really cried about this in a long time. And it was that little moment of like, oh, my God, is that bad? It was more just like, nope, don't let your mind go there to say, hey, life has actually been really good recently. And that, that's okay too, right? That's a gift. And you haven't been like, drowning in this grief. And it's okay that right now everything feels heavy and you feel sad and like you needed that healing cry, right? As you're kind of preparing for this. This party. Well, I never know if I should call it a party, this memory.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Party celebration. And so there was sort of in that space of remembering, and I wouldn't. I don't know if I'd even call it grief. It didn't feel as grief, but it just felt the memories. Sometimes it's heavy.

[A]

And then

[B]

just this past weekend, I actually got engaged and.

[A]

Oh, congratulations.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you. And it was just like this culmination of this incredible, you know, time of dating my. My boyfriend and, you know, these again, Beyonce. Exactly right. Dating him and now being engaged to him, which is so incredible and, you know, something I've wanted for so long and yet remembering that just three weeks ago, I was having this moment, you know, crying with him, like, she never got to meet you. You never got to meet her. And yet, I'm so glad you're here. Your parents are here. You guys are these new puzzle pieces in our life. Even though she's not here, you guys are still here. And they got to meet more family members. And so then now kind of being in this, like, bubble weekend of engagement and happiness, and I kind of looked at my calendar. I was like, oh, I have this podcast on Wednesday. And I was like, oh, I have to kind of shift back into this, like, grief space. And at first I was like, oh, I wish the timing was different. But then it ended up being, like, this really beautiful thing of, as I was talking with some people about it, of, no, you know what? This is a moment where I get to talk about Maria and, like, bring her into this moment in my life that I wish she was here for. That, like, both of us would have loved to experience with each other. And I actually shared with Dan over the weekend how when Maria was in hospice, we had a social worker kind of just coming with us and guiding us to talk to Maria. And, you know, each. My parents and I each took a turn just saying things to her. And, you know, one of the things that we'd always talked about was being each other's maid of honor, right? And so I remember saying to her, like, maria, you know, if I ever get married, you know, you will be my maid of honor. And I had shared that with Dan this weekend as we were just talking about, you know, getting engaged. And it was kind of like this moment of, like, hey, you have this time on this podcast to reflect about her. And, like, put this, like, almost gives me this moment to say, maria, I wish you were here. I'm engaged. We're so happy. I wish you could meet him. And you are still my maid of honor, you know, and so it's sort of like this culmination of what are the chances that I have this podcast the weekend after that happens? And it's just like, the perfect metaphor of holding. Like, the sadness and the incredible joy comes after loss.

[A]

I mean, I think it's so. I mean, it's so exactly what I have always thought this podcast was, right? Because it's not just about, like, the heaviness and the darkness and the. And the Just the utter sadness that you've lost your person, but it's about how beautiful life can be because they were there and because you create this new world. Right. Like, you create this new world, and you are, like, you are the. Like, how awesome like, you are in this space in your life where you are exactly where you want to be and having this beautiful moment. And no, it's not the same, but you're like, you. You hold them both, and they're both. They're both who you are, and they're both part of you, and they're so

[B]

getting to, like, have this moment of, like, talking about this.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We are here to reflect on Maria and the loss and the grief and also, like, the best weekend of my life, like, just happened. Right. And so that first moment of, oh, I don't want to go back into that grief space this weekend, but it's. Or, you know, tonight was like, actually, it's okay. It is okay. Keep it together. They are together. They always will be.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And there are times when the grief is heavier, and there are times when that joy is heavier, and that will, I assume, continue to be an ever fluctuating continuum. So it was kind of just an interesting fluctuating, like. Yeah.

[A]

Balance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I had a guest this past season who talked about, because of the loss, like, because of the dark, you can have so much light, you know? And it's. It's kind of like I feel like my life has become this cliche, but I feel like they're very true. Right. Like. Like, you can experience such great joy now. And it's 1,000% okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it's just.

[B]

Which takes time to learn, though, too, I think. Yes.

[A]

You don't know it right away. It's taken me a long time. And I think it's interesting that we're having this conversation. You know, you're 10 years in, I'm 15 years in. Like, if we had this conversation five years ago, be different eight years ago, it'd be different. It's just different. And if we have it in 10 more years, it'll probably be different again, like, in ways. Right.

[B]

Like, because, like, just different things you've learned, different things you've experienced and. Yeah.

[A]

And how you carry them with you. I am so. I think this is such a perfect, like, ending to this conversation because I'm so. Like, you said it all. Like, I don't have anything to say. Like, that is exactly what living with. With loss is. It's not all the sadness. It's this. Your life goes on, and you have this beautiful moment and congratulations and. And she will, like. Right.

[B]

Yeah. And it feels really neat and unique to get to be talking about this with you and with, you know, whoever listens to this podcast to say, you know, that her memory is here, she is here. Our life is happening, and she's still here. She's a part of this, and she's still here. That's really neat. And, you know, to be in this moment feeling really happy and grateful, and yet there were many years, really hard years, you know, for many reasons, and her loss being a part of that. And so it is. It is just, you know, like you said, 10 years out right now. I'm sure people listening to this are at various stages of loss or maybe haven't had a loss yet. And hopefully, you know, it is an encouragement to know, hey, their life goes on, and it's okay that it does. We carry them with us. And different, everybody, it's going to look different. But, yeah, that learning to balance the grief and the joy is, I think, the whole thing. And what makes life. It is the whole thing what makes life okay. And it's okay to live and it's okay to be sad and all of the above.

[A]

I just interviewed someone, and she's like, life is for the living. And I was like, again, another very like. But that's what it is. Life is for the living. And we honor them, but we live. And one of the ways we honor them is by living.

[B]

Yeah. My fiance has a quote that he always loves, I think is from a song. And I don't know what it's from, but it's just, may. May we live until we die, you know, and we are all going to die. And so, like you said, it kind of having loss. Well, I don't think it has to be that, like, I'm going to live. Like, today is my last day, because that's not really realistic either. It does help. I do think it helps center you in a way that just says, hey, we're here. I don't know how long this period is going to last or what this is all going to look like, but I do think it helps give you that kind of deeper appreciation for things and also ability to move through the hard things, because they're still there, too. Because they're there.

[A]

Katrina, this has been such a joy. I'm so grateful that you came on, and I'm so happy for you. I wish I could give you a hug. Congratulations.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I wish you the very best.

[B]

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. And I think everything that you're doing with, you know, with the podcast with your organization is so wonderful and a really beautiful way to honor your son and help so many others. So thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

[A]

Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it to see you next time on A Place of Yes.