← A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast 
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Heather Straughter and this is A Place of Yes. In each episode we have honest conversations about grief. The messy parts, the unexpected moments, and the ways we begin to heal through heartfelt stories and expert advice. My hope is to offer you comfort, connection, and a reminder that you don't have to navigate this alone. Today I'm joined by Chad Griffin, a listener of A Place of yes who reached out to share his story and I'm so glad he did. Chad lost both of his siblings and his mother with the first loss happening when he was just 20 years old. In this conversation, he reflects on how grief shaped his mental health, how he's come to feel even closer to his family over time, and why remembering through saved voicemails AI generated images and saying their names has become an act of love. It's honest, thoughtful and full of hard earned perspective and I'm grateful to share it with you. So today's guest is Chad Griffin and this is one of those stories that I love. When this happens to Chad was a listener of A Place of Yes. He knew a season two guest and he reached out to me and shared with me his grief story. Part of what I love about being the host of A Place of yes is connecting with people that I never would have connected with before and fully leaning into this whole grief journey that so many of us are on and for so long, at least in my life didn't talk about it or live it as fully as I do now. So Chad reached out to me, he shared his grief story, his journey and grief entered his life pretty early and pretty profoundly. And I think this is going to be a really great conversation mostly because Chad has been so transparent and so willing to be open about it that I think it's going to be really impactful for our listeners. So welcome to the show, Chad. I'm glad you're here.
- [01:53]
B
Thank you, Heather. Thank you for having me.
- [01:56]
A
And we're going to get right into it. So you lost both of your siblings. Correct. And your mother and over the course of your life and your first big loss happened when you were 20. Can you take me back to that? Talk about what the loss of your brother was like and what you remember about those early days of grief.
- [02:20]
B
So I was living with my brother and sister in law for a little over two years. I was getting ready to transfer to SUNY Oswego and that was the winter, I'm sorry, the spring of 93 when he got diagnosed with cancer. I think it was, I believe it was April and they were expecting their first child. And when he got diagnosed, it was almost as if he knew. He actually said, I hope it's not cancer. And it was a pain, and it's him. So they actually asked him to go in for a biopsy, and nobody thought it was going to be cancer. And sure enough, the biopsy came back positive. So everybody's life just kind of froze for that.
- [03:07]
A
How old was he again?
- [03:08]
B
He was 28 when he got diagnosed.
- [03:12]
A
Wow. Okay. So nobody's thinking, honestly, right? You're not thinking at 28 that it's cancer?
- [03:19]
B
No, not. You know, not in least fit. I was like, it can't be possible. So when he called me, actually, I stopped with my sisters on the way home, and she goes, did you talk to Brett? I said, no. She goes, he's got cancer. I go, what? So I called him up real quick, and he was shocked. He goes, I don't know how this happened. I said, okay, I'll be right home. So quickly, doctor's appointments everywhere. Sloan Kettering, Dana Farber. And he ended up getting treated at Ellis. And they diagnosed him as undifferentiated. So during that time, they had no clue. Well, I shouldn't say no clue. They just weren't sure of the origin. So they.
- [04:02]
A
So what does that mean? So undifferentiated means that you don't.
- [04:05]
B
You don't know exactly what the cancer is, what kind of.
- [04:07]
A
Oh, okay. Okay.
- [04:09]
B
So I believe they treated it as testicular at first, and he showed some promise in the first couple months with chemotherapy, radiation. And then out of nowhere, it just spread rapidly. It just went everywhere, like, to his chest, to his brain. And that whole summer was just a blur, absolute blur, because you're juxtaposing between what could happen, what is, and what you hope doesn't happen. So September 7th, he passed away. And it was just such a blur to even, you know, the fact that I can remember that timeline, it was just so odd, you know, it was. Nobody's prepared for death, you know, to. You know, especially with a sibling or a child or anybody close to you at really. At any age until you really experience it.
- [05:05]
A
So this was not something I was thinking about. But the way that you just walked us through that timeline, I think, can connect to so many people, or at least to myself, because I can walk. Like, I don't do it often because it doesn't necessarily do me any good, but that grief timeline, especially, I think, for our first big loss in life, right? Like, it's almost like I can Walk through the day that Jake died. I can walk through what happened that morning, what happened that afternoon, when I had no idea it was gonna be the day he died, to when I was pretty certain he was going to die, to when he died. Like, I, you know, it's. I can do that timeline. And to hear you even all these years later, be able to, like, put yourself back in that, it's such a. It's such an interesting thing, I think. Right. Because sometimes I don't even know why I walk into a room, but I can tell you everything about that. And, you know, it's like time freezes in that moment.
- [06:03]
B
Time absolutely freezes, you know, and we remember how we feel rather than what we think, you know, it's, you know, once. Once it hits nerves and you are. You're really frozen in time during that period, you know, and that grief process begins then, and from there. It's not linear.
- [06:22]
A
Yeah, it's never linear.
- [06:24]
B
No, it never is, and it never stops, but it just. It redefines itself.
- [06:28]
A
It's interesting when you talked about the. That whole idea of what is coming, what is might happen, what you don't want to happen, all of that, like, that is so true. And so many guests talk about that, you know, and now there's like a name for it, right? That anticipatory grief, but before there was a name for it. That's just a feeling we all have, right? Like, and, you know, there's. I've talked to people who almost have. Feel like they've grieved the person while they're right there living. And. And I can imagine the shock of just being, you know, I think you said you were 20 and your brother was 28. And that's just not even in the realm of anything you're thinking. And to just get it, like grief, right. Like a smack in the face at that age. You had referenced at one point, I think, in our previous conversation, or, you know, that you just didn't have the tools for it. And I think that is such a common feeling for so many people, regardless of age. But, like, that first time, you have to face grief in the face, I guess, for lack of a Better. Like, we often don't have the tools. What did. How did you figure out the tools? Like, what. What was that process for you? Like, what. What did it feel like at that time? I can just. I can only imagine losing a brother. And you said his wife was pregnant.
- [07:45]
B
Like, my mother had moved away. My parents were divorced. My mother moved back down to Alabama. And my brother, you know, kindness are. You goes, you're going to move in with us. And I go, huh? I go, that's very kind of you. And I didn't expect it. So as I moved in and they were trying to conceive and they did, and Connor was on his way. And for her to lose her husband, you know, that she had been with, on and off, the other high school sweethearts. And when my brother passed on September 7th, honor was born in November and for her to carry that child through term, when I went to college, she actually gave me a care package and she gave me a poster, a Beatles poster that my brother and I, you know, like, I love that poster. And she framed it for me, for her to have the wherewithal. Missy just is a rock. She just stayed like this and the strength and her parents and her family just surrounded her and she had a lot of love and support and to watch that. And for me at that age, I knew what was going on, but I couldn't truly appreciate what she had done, nor could I appreciate what I was going through. So, you know, Hindsight is always 2020 and I hope so. It took years for me to actually acknowledge, address and appreciate what was going on. So as a 20 year old, as a college student, I don't know shit. I didn't know anything. I thought I knew everything. But you're searching for a lot of dopamine. You're a hedonist at 20 years old.
- [09:31]
A
Well, it's hard to see the big picture. And I think that's so interesting, right? Like, and there's so many things. And Jake was 35 or I was 35 when Jake died, so 15 years later. But I still had that same, all those same things. Like I didn't know what I was doing. I look back now and I see a lot of the things. But that's gotta be, I mean, how is Connor now? Like, that's also gotta be a little like he never met his dad. Like how, how is that for you? Like how is, are you, are you guys close?
- [10:02]
B
Like that's, we're, we're, we're close. You know, I wish we were closer. It's just Missy. So she gave birth to Connor, my sister and brother in law. My brother in law actually called me up, Chris and he's like, you're going to move him. You're going to now come with us on your, on your, on your, on your school breaks. I'm like, okay, here we go again. I'm like, I truly and like it was from the bottom of her. I was so thankful to have that. It's a lot, though.
- [10:28]
A
It's a lot.
- [10:29]
B
It was a lot. So Connor or Missy waited a while and she met a man named Bob. And I could not hand pick till the end of time a better man for her to marry to raise Connor. And most importantly, Bob made it a point to keep my brother's memory alive. So he would openly ask, how you feeling over Brad? Or he would come to family gatherings on our side. And Connor just got married two years ago, three years ago. And at the rehearsal dinner, the first statement out of Bob's mouth was, there's somebody missing here and it's Brad Griffin. And you know, tears, or.
- [11:20]
A
I was gonna say chills. Yeah.
- [11:22]
B
Oh, it was amazing. And I. And like he started crying and I just went right to him. And we're in the rehearsal dinner and I just went right to him, put my arms around him and let him speak. So for this man to do it through Conor's upbringing and to continue it at his wedding, I, I just, it speaks volumes of this human to do this. So, yeah, Connor is, he's an amazing individual. He's in Del Reynau and he's a doctor of physical therapy. He just had his first child.
- [11:56]
A
But yeah, it's so often that we can focus on the negative or the dark or the ugly and all of that exists. But out of some of our losses come these other beautiful moments. And what you just described is a beautiful moment. Like, yes. Would you rather have your brother and have that have been his, his journey be a little bit more typical or whatever we want to call that, but the fact that it turned out the way he did and I had cut you off a little bit, but like, it almost is full circle, right? Like, it's like this.
- [12:27]
B
It is, it's just, it's. It's encapsulated. It's like, okay, we're going to protect this and we're going to keep it where it is because it should be here and it should be held up here on a pedestal. You know, it should be protected and coveted. So it's, it's just so special to me, you know, that, that Missy, Bob, Connor, and you know, they've got two more girls, Emma and Rachel, and they're just such a special unit. It's just remarkable.
- [12:51]
A
It's nice to be able to, you know, not be alone in the idea of trying to keep your brother's memory alive like that. You have a teen doing it with you. My son Ethan is 20. So as you talk about a 20 year old, right. And you talk about handling these things in the way, you know, the dopamine and, and you think you know everything, but you really don't. And all of that, like, I, you know, I, I am watching that age very, you know, I got a front row seat. So I'm thinking of, you know, all of those things. And you were pretty open about sharing like in that early grief, you know, like, what do you do? You're kind of looking for distractions, you're looking for this. And you kind of like can fall into habits. Like you can denial and drugs and alcohol and all of that. And I think. All of it, all of it, right. Like, and, and I even struggled a little bit because, you know, you're oftentimes like your, your go to is like, I don't want to deal with this. Right. Like, I want to like push it away or what or whatever it is. But how did you kind of want to escape it? Right? And I think that you in, in that first go round with grief, toyed with that, right. Like, just how did I not deal with it?
- [14:02]
B
Well, I didn't know how because like, number one, I was still numb and I tried to cry and like, I didn't cry at my brother's funeral, maybe a little bit, but like, I could not feel and it was just, okay, I've got to feel something. So let's drink more, let's smoke more pot, let's do everything imaginable that's going to give me something to, to feel something. So I just distracted myself as much as I could. But prior to that, you know, I was also struggling with depression even prior to my brother's death. So I was already in therapy. Like, I just entered on my own because I come from a long line of addicts and people that, that, you know, struggled with mental wellness. And I was like, all right, I got to figure this out. And I think there is a stark difference between how men hold or handle emotions and how women handle emotions. Like, we are taught and everybody's taught as you grow up, don't cry. Don't be more stoic. I had two tools. I had stoicism and I had anger. And then the anger, really, I wasn't an angry person. So it went in and I just closed down. So I did not articulate my feelings at all because I didn't even know I felt anything.
- [15:24]
A
Yeah.
- [15:25]
B
So that process took forever, just forever. And eventually the emotions are going to come out, whether or not you like it. And at that point there's something much bigger than what they were.
- [15:34]
A
I find like the, the whole male, female thing of it very interesting. And I've talked to a handful of guests on the show and, and one recently who was talking exactly about that, like not having the tools to know necessarily how to cry. And once, once he did, like how life changing that was like how just freeing it is.
- [15:56]
B
There's a lot to be said for it. It's, you know, they're, they're there for a reason. They're there for a reason. There's, there's EQ and there's iq. Well, if you have a, you know, high enough iq, how can it operate if your EQ is not allowing it to operate? Like you can have all the words and the words in the world, but if you can't tie it in and correlate it to your experience, it's meaningless. And I just felt myself shrinking.
- [16:21]
A
Well, I think that it's interesting what you said and I'd love to kind of dig more into this because I just like personally. Right. Like, you know, we always go off our own experiences and I think I had a very, like, I just didn't think about like mental health. I didn't think about a lot of these things at all. Like, not that I shouldn't have or, you know, I should have, but I just, it was not in my purview really. So I, I love that you were self aware enough at like the young age of being like, hey, I need to, like, I need to put myself in therapy. Like I need to figure some of this stuff out. Because you kind of had the wherewithal to know that you wanted a different outcome even before feel, before adding grief to the mix. So I think that that's really, frankly I think that's impressive because I think a lot of people, and maybe the world's changed a little bit in. I think that there's more of a priority on like mental health and you know, there's just more of a, it's less like shoved away or whatever. But talk about that. Like, you know, you had mentioned being in therapy on and off for I think you said like 35 years. And I think that's great. I think the fact that you knew it was a tool that could help you even at a younger age was being in therapy before even dealing with grief. That must have helped.
- [17:42]
B
Yes, it's like. So I was always, it was my first major in college and I remember in the first year actually opening the DSM3 at that time and I worked on the list and I was going just through all the diagnoses and I'm like, so everybody can be diagnosed with something. So that turned me away from psychology. I was like, this isn't like it's pseudo at that point. So I turned away. But I always loved examining my thoughts. I always loved examining my thoughts. I'm trying to figure em out of like, okay, what does this produce? So I always did it to myself. There was always that introspection and reflection. You know, the, the anecdotal analytical mind took over, but it took over too much where it became too cognitive and I wasn't connecting the emotions with the thoughts. So it, at the end of the day, like, I'm not sure how it was for you, but I know a lot of people that when somebody close to you dies, you question your own existence. But God or spirituality or religion. And I went heavy into this and I'm secular as can be now, I'm as spiritual as can be, but I do not subscribe to a religion. You know, I would say I, I appreciate all of them, but I don't subscribe to any of them.
- [18:55]
A
So previous, were you ever like, were you raised them? Okay, Like I just, you know, my,
- [19:02]
B
my, my parents were, My parents were brought up in the Bible bell of Alabama. They went to Bible school. They actually went to Bible school K through 12. So as we migrated up north, you know, we, I was born in Alabama. After two months we went to Ohio and then over to New York. So I was raised in New York, but my parents were from the deep South. So when we would go down there and now we, we went to church maybe 10 times, maybe 15. Okay, so it was Protestant Church of Christ. And they, you know, they could rip off scripture in the left and right, but we did not really go to church. So being brought into a, being brought up in a dry county of Alabama to New York where everything's, you know, as you want it. Yeah, it, it was a different upbringing. So I had this idea of what religion was and my mother was still, you know, tethered, my father still tethered, but you know, they were of course drinking and whatever. It was not an Alabama lifestyle of Athens, Alabama. And when we would go down there and visit, it was church on Wednesdays and twice on Sundays. It was a different world. I have a belief, my personal belief in God now is so personal and it's not a being as I was thought that it was. So for me it's a Verb, it's not a noun. It's how you act, it's how you feel, it's how you treat others. You know, it's the compassion, empathy, the, the love. And that's, to me, that's all it is.
- [20:35]
A
I love that actually. You know, and I don't talk much about religion on this show because it, I don't know always what to say, right. But I feel like you've. You know what I mean? Because I. And you sort of alluded to this a little bit when Jake died. So I was raised Catholic and, you know, whatever. Like, I did my first communion, I did my confirmation, like, all the things. I was also raised Catholic at a time when it was. Some of the rules, I think were a little different and I'm kind of out of touch with it. But, you know, when I got married, Brian is not Catholic. And for like a long time I was like, oh, my God, you know, you've never been baptized. You're gonna be stuck in purgatory. Like, there was so much like, negative, crazy stuff, right? Like, I would. But I was like, I like, what do you, like, you have to, you have to get baptized. He's like, heather, I'm not getting baptized. You know, he's like, it took me forever because it's like. And then I was like, this is. And I, I don't want to be like, say the wrong thing, but it's almost to me, like the nonsense of religion, right? Like, I'm getting, I'm hung up on this, like, weird fact that is not
- [21:42]
B
just weird, but it means something to you.
- [21:44]
A
It's like dictating things and it's like heavy and it means things. So. So I kind of was like, okay, I'm done with religion. Like, I can't live this way. Like, it's kooky. And then Jake died, right? And I did not know what to do when I tell you, like, we were back to church on Sunday, Brian was coming, Ethan came. Like, I needed something. I needed to believe in some way that there was something that my little four year old boy who died was not in purgatory or like, make sense
- [22:17]
B
of it for me. Like, make sense of it for me.
- [22:18]
A
Like, I was like, give me something to believe in. And I, like, clung to it, but I also started to become kind of like, you know, I was like, wait a minute. Like, I don't know if I wanted to. Like, I read between the lines or like, like who I was was not this overtly religious person that just blindly believed some of this stuff. So I started to step away from it again, but found as a result this kind of happy medium for me, right. Like where it's more like you said, like spiritual or faith or like, I'm not always sure what the right word is, but it is not. It's not defined by this. Like you have, you know, if A, then B. Because I feel like religion can be like, you have to follow A, B and C in order for D. And
- [23:06]
B
I'm like, otherwise you're going to be Z. Yeah, like.
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A
And I was like, you know, I'd rather just like. And it's funny because I made Ethan go through all the stuff. I was like, you have like, he did like Sunday, Sunday school, they called the church school or whatever. But like, I was like, after you're confirmed, if you never go to church again. And I was like, here I am doing the same nonsense. But I was like, he's like, I'm probably never going to go to church again. I was like, just get confirmed, please. Like just. Just do that for your mother.
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B
Right.
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A
But even as I say it, I find it foolish. But there is this like, especially with death, you want to find, like you just want to believe that there is something.
- [23:43]
B
Yeah. And it's that something will eat await you if you let it. And it all depends on like, okay, so I really had to go existential on this. And I'm like, okay, how do I make sense of this? So I'm struggling with this with my brother and then my sister dies and. And this is in between, like I got married and we had a child. So purpose was, you know, I truly feel like I became a man once my child was born. Because it's you no longer living for yourself. So I'm doing that. Life is good then. My sister never was the same after my brother passed away. She just could not come to terms with it and she started drinking.
- [24:23]
A
I was the eight. So you were the youngest.
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B
I was the youngest. So My sister was 10 years older than me. She was born in 62, my brother was born in 64 and I was born in 72.
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A
Okay.
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B
A happy accident.
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A
Oops, oops, oops.
- [24:41]
B
So when my brother passed away, it certainly brought my sister and I closer and we were always close. She was like a second mother to me. And my brother was like a father figure to me. So as. As time went on, my sister just struggled more and more and she began drinking heavily. And I did not know this because I had my own family and it was quick. So she was actually in The Glens Falls Hospital for liver failure at the time that my son was being born. So I was going up in between both floors. She came through it, her liver repaired, she went to rehab. And then I think she was clean for maybe a few months, but then it just went back towards the spiral, and that one was even quicker. And when I went to see her, she was so jaundiced. And I'm like, okay, this is not gonna turn out well. And my father came up and we were sitting in the icu, and it was probably like one o' clock in the morning. It was me, my father, and my. And his wife and a Dodger came in, said, okay, what do you guys want to do? She's no longer responding. And looked at my father and goes, I can't do it. I said, okay, that's why I'm here. I'll do it. So I went in and at that point, and I don't mean to be graphic here.
- [26:07]
A
No, no.
- [26:08]
B
So absolutely at that point when. When your liver is done and you're. You're that jaundiced, like, your organs start shutting down, so blood is just running down her face. Oh. So I went in and I grabbed the towel, wiped off her face, and I sat there with her for like a half hour, and I talked and I said, okay, I'll see you soon. Thank you for everything. Turn out the machine. I went really. At that moment, my understanding of time was forever changed. Forever changed. So to. To lose my last sibling, I was like, huh? You know, my brain was like, am I cursed? Like, but I'm like, it's not about me. It's their life. You know, this isn't personal. No, it's. We're not. Nobody's. Nobody's free from dying. Like, we're. None of us are going to come out of here alive.
- [27:08]
A
Yep.
- [27:09]
B
So it just. It forced me, you know, back into therapy. And this time I was able to grieve and I really was able to. To process as much as I could during that time. You know, especially having a child. You know, at the time, I think my. My son was 2.
- [27:28]
A
I mean, that's such a. So, so, so different than your brother who, you know, got sick and it happened quickly. But here's this other. I don't know, you know, I mean, that. That's a really hard loss. And I was there. There just. It must have just been. I can't even think of the words, but, like, were you angry at her or was it just sadness or. You know what I mean? Like, because sometimes it's. And you're right, none of us are free from dying. But I think sometimes that first loss, like, I used to think I was protected from other losses because I had such a tragic loss, you know, and then. So I. I imagine that.
- [28:07]
B
That.
- [28:07]
A
I don't know if that's true for you or not, but, like, to lose one sibling than the other and then be like, wait, what happened here?
- [28:13]
B
So I. I went into almost PTSD after that because my. I was. I was in the golf profession and I was working as here at Tuga national and. And Angela Mazon and Tom Newkirk did just a. A great, you know, gathering for everybody at the. At the restaurant afterwards. And, you know, as, you know, when. When somebody passes away and you're basically hosting the funeral, it's your job to play host. Like, and it's like you're making out of the feet other people feel comfortable.
- [28:43]
A
Yeah.
- [28:44]
B
So I remember, like, okay, here's the role today. And after that, it just hit. And for me, I just tend to, like, seclude and sequester myself. So during that time, my son was 2, I believe, and my wife was taking into daycare, and I started having visions of them getting in a car accident. Like, you know, the car catching on fire. I'm like, holy shit, I need to make sure this doesn't happen. So I would. I would beg my wife, I'm like, call me when you get to work to let me know that he got dropped off okay. And that you made it to work okay. And if it became daily, I'm like, I just need this now, please. So my anxiety was through the roof, through the roofs that.
- [29:30]
A
I mean, this is going to be weird, but that oddly makes me feel better because I have had those same, like, crazy anxiety, right? And like, I've worked really hard to try and get those under control, but it's like, I just feel like that, I don't know, going through a big loss just can change you and it changes the way your brain, like, rational you can be. Like, them dying has nothing. Like, it does not mean anyone else. Like, it doesn't equate, but it makes you think it does. Like, I don't. I feel for you so much with that feeling because I know that deep down it's so hard.
- [30:06]
B
Oh, it was awful. Like, it was like, I. So my. I was never a great sleeper, but my sleep, I would start waking up, like, every two or three hours, so. And then, of course, you know, child, like, you don't sleep so it just squeezed and it squeezed. So I was like, operating on, like, three to, you know, three and a half hours of sleep, like, daily for years.
- [30:26]
A
A long time. Yeah.
- [30:27]
B
And it caught up. So it just, you know, theory of relativity. It's like, it's, it's time and space, and it's like, when people die, it's like little dots that you start connecting. You, like, live between the dots. So it was just, it was a trying time. I came through it with more therapy. And of course, my loving wife during that time, she watched it. You know, she could, she. All she do was support me and love me and just know that, okay, he's gonna get through this.
- [31:07]
A
I feel like, you know, there's names that I was never familiar with, but now I am from all these conversations that I have and stuff. But that's like that whole compound grief, right? Like, the second loss is so different and impacted by that first loss. Right? So it's like they're not isolated events. They are like, they become these, like, larger, heavier events. And it, it can take more to work through. And you used the phrase once, and I, I like the way that this, I don't know. I, I, I think it's meaningful. You said grief across a lifetime, right? And I think that, that, you know, I think it's such a real challenge for those of us who have had loss because, and you referenced it earlier, there is none of this linear. You go through the stages. You're in, you're out, you're done. It's this, it is, it's grief across a lifetime, and it's, it's finding that way to live really presently and side by side with your grief. But I think, at least for me, so I'm curious about this. Cause you have definitely put in the work to move through this and to, to live positively and all of those things. But even sometimes, when you know better or when I know better, I'll speak for myself. I still feel the need sometimes to, like, shove it away or distract or to not think about it or to, like, not deal with it. Even when I know that is not the right thing to do. Even when I know that, even when I know the tools or what I should do. Do you ever still feel like, screw this, like, I'm not dealing with this. I'm putting this, like, I'm shoving it down.
- [32:37]
B
So it's to the point now that I truly feel closer to my brother, sister and mother, closer to them spiritually than I ever did physically. Because now perspective, time away from it I understand them better. I understand life much better because it's their independent lives. And the suffering that I'm going through is my suffering. It's mine. So I had to put that into. Into perspective. And then it. And then I, you know, I started meditating a lot and. And really trying to be as present, to know that the next breath is never guaranteed for anybody. So for that, I'm like, I had to say to myself, okay, they had their time. Who am I to say that it was enough or too much or perfect? And they're no longer here. So therefore it's perfect because I can't change it. So it's allowed me to really. Acceptance, that's a key word. Acceptance is hard for anybody. So the new normal. What's the new normal? So I truly feel close to them. They only left me because I left them. So in a spiritual sense, I couldn't deal with it. Once again, I'm very spiritual, so I truly feel that we just move on. The energy goes somewhere in the spirit. It's eternal, it's infinite. So in that sense. And that's for me, you know, once again, I'm not trying to preach to anybody.
- [34:23]
A
No, no, no. I think it's always helpful, though, to think about and to hear how other people work through it. Right. You know, and it doesn't mean that everybody is going to work through it the same, but I think hearing things gives. Some people will be listening to this and say, oh, my God. That's kind of what I was thinking, but I didn't have the words or like, I just think it's important to share all of these.
- [34:44]
B
Yeah, it's like the more tools or the more options, somebody has to say, okay. It's not just a black and white binary decision you have to make. And really, it's not a decision. It's like the decision will make for you, but you've got to be open to it and you've got to just. It's almost like a giving up and say, okay, what does this mean? And for me, it was. I had to face my own shit, go within, feel the feels. And then from there it just started to slowly make sense. And like, once again, like, I don't need. I left them. They don't leave me.
- [35:22]
A
I love the, like, you know, I'm thinking of like the full circle of, you know, a little bit ago when you were talking about when your sister first passed and, you know, you were kind of having a moment of like, it's almost like we make our grief about us. Like, we make their passing about us because you're like, you know. But then there's that shift of, like, it's about you because you're still here and you have the loss. But the big picture is when you come to this place that you're talking about where you can still feel the connection and you still feel the energy, and they're still very present, and, you know, even decades later, you can still feel emotional and feel connected and all of these things. And. And that's that shift that is. It's such an important shift, I think. Yeah.
- [36:08]
B
And you never want to lose that because it's like. I mean, you saw me when I started talking to my sister, I started choking up, like, and. And I. I couldn't do that 10 years ago. I couldn't do that you know, 15 years ago. So now it's no longer grief. I redefine it as just longing, you know, it's longing to know that, you know, physically on earth, of course I miss them. You know, I want that chemical exchange. I want that. That emotional closeness, however, spiritually, like, they're there. They're there. They never left. And it's really up to me to keep that alive. By looking at their pictures, by talking about them, you know, by saying their names.
- [36:47]
A
Yeah.
- [36:47]
B
By saying.
- [36:48]
A
What was your sister's name?
- [36:49]
B
Angie. Angie.
- [36:51]
A
Angie.
- [36:51]
B
Yeah. So Angie. It was abc. Angie, Brett, Chad.
- [36:55]
A
Oh, I love that.
- [36:57]
B
Yeah.
- [36:58]
A
I am so. I know when we spoke on the phone months ago, I was. I told you about this. And this just seems like such a perfect segue because it's, you know, when you can. When you can feel them and when you. You know, like you said, like, I would give. Like, I'd give a million dollars to physically hold Jacob, Right? Like, to give him a hug, to feel like it. Like, all of that.
- [37:21]
B
The smell. The smell.
- [37:23]
A
All the smell. The, like, expressions, the, like, the things. Everything that screws with me sometimes, right? Because I'm like, I don't remember how he smells. Like, it makes. That could make me want to cry, Right? Like, of course, I still have one shirt that at this point is full. You know, I never washed it, but it was like a shirt he had in my closet. And I grab it sometimes because I like. I like, I want something tangible. But other times, I just lean into the spirituality, into this place. And, you know, I am having this conversation with you right now on this red couch. And this red couch is one of the only pieces of furniture in this entire house that Jake sat on, that Jake was A part of that, you know, And. And I do. I feel like, hey, buddy, you're here with me. Like, I feel like there's part of this conversation. I am physically touching something that he physically touched, and I love it. And it's. You know, and I was talking with. With my producer yesterday, and it was like, a place of yes. And we always think of that as, like. Like, I think of it as, like, coming from a place of. Yes. Like, emotionally, but almost physically. Like, this is my physical place of. Yes. Right. Like, this is a literal place where I am still touching something that he touched. And as time passes.
- [38:38]
B
That's a sacred couch.
- [38:39]
A
It's a sacred couch. And some people could hear that and be like, that's weird. But I think that people with loss and time and decades since they've had their people physically, I yearn for something, and this couch gives it to me to some degree.
- [38:56]
B
I love it. I love it. And. And it's. So. For the longest time, I was searching for pictures of my brother and sister, and I. They don't exist. They don't exist. So, like, over the time, like, my. You know, my parents got divorced. My mother just. I don't know where her stuff went. And then my father may have a few things, but I don't have any pictures of three of us together. Just the three of us. Like, there's some with, like, you know, the grandparents.
- [39:22]
A
Yeah.
- [39:22]
B
But there's one. So I asked Missy at my sister's birthday. I said, you know what? I'm looking for pictures of three of us. I go, is it possible there's nothing that exists? So she sent me a few pictures, and of course, I'm at San Jose, So I'm in the center of technology. And then AI is crazy everywhere. So I'm like, let me see if I can do something. So I put a picture of me, a picture of them, and it came up with this picture of the three of us. And I'm like, oh, Chad. I'm like, is this creepy? I'm like, am I crazy to even keep. Just, like, how am I doing it? And I. And I sent it. So Nicholas is my sister's son and my nephew, and so we talk, you know, once every two weeks. And I said, buddy, I have something. Like. And I said that to Missy, too. I said, I want to share this with you. I said, it's creepy, but it's endearing at the same time. And I had my AirPods in on this picture, and Missy's like, oh, that's lovely. But remove the AirPods. But here's what AI did. It would put us. It would always put me in the middle. For some reason, it kept on making me like, six, four. And these, they were like, you know, yay big. And I'm like, all right, let's minimize it. But it kept on keeping me at, like, this giant figure. It almost got the proportions right. So I sent it along. But it always. It had this earth, like, ether. Ethereal look to it, where their hands were glowing. It was the oddest thing. It was wild. And it was. It was all three. I'm like, okay. I don't know how much I shared it with Missy, and I shared it with Nicholas and. And I shared it with it.
- [40:58]
A
And what was their reaction?
- [41:01]
B
Nicholas, you know, of course, use a couple of expletives. But he loved it, you know, and so did Missy. And I shared it with a few friends. I'm like that. They're like that. It's crazy. So it was, you know, that's the. I'll keep that, you know, just because it's. It made the hair of my arm stand up. And, you know, like you said, I miss hearing my brother's voice. I miss hearing my sister's voice. And when this. When my son was born, he left me. Or when he was 5, I think he left me a voice message. It's still on my phone. And if I saved it in, like, five different places, I will never lose that voice message ever. So, you know, you become sentimental about certain things.
- [41:44]
A
Yeah.
- [41:45]
B
Because you never know. You just. You never know.
- [41:49]
A
I want to share this quickly because I think it's so funny. I did the same thing I was struggling, like, a year ago with. You know, Jake died when he was 4. And as Ethan has gotten older. Right. And you talk about the pictures, and it's a little weird in my house because I still have, like, all these pictures of the boys when they were little. And then there's all these pictures of Ethan and, And his girlfriend and us traveling. But, like. No, no, no. But what's weird to me is, like, I just, I'm like, It makes me sometimes sad because it's stuck, right? Like, Jake is stuck at 4. There's evolution of time. There's no new pictures, you know, so that's like my. But so I did the. I, I. I never would have had this idea, but I had a guest on the show who was like. Had done this AI thing. So I scanned, I put into chat a picture of Jake on his, like, fourth birthday. And I was like, what would he look like at 19? Because this would have been when he was 19. And it spit back this picture. What was funny about it was in the picture I sent, there was like, he was wearing a crown that said like, had like spider man on it or something. So the 19 year old still had the crown on, which was also funny. But I was like kind of into it because I was, I was just struggling with like, it's so hard to not know what your boy looks like. I only know what he looks like at 4. Like, I was just in this headspace. So I did it. I sent it to Brian and Ethan and they were both like, you're a weirdo. Like, they were, they were not into it. They were kind of like, like Ethan's like, please don't do that again. And if you do it, don't share it with me.
- [43:15]
B
Right, right.
- [43:16]
A
So it's just, it's kind of funny, but it is, it's an interesting world we live in as grievers in the modern world with AI and all of these things because, yeah, it's funny.
- [43:27]
B
Well, you got to cut the line somewhere. Like, okay, how much is too much? Am I crossing the like is. Is though. There's natural, there's okay.
- [43:35]
A
Yeah.
- [43:35]
B
So, yeah, I did the same thing. I fooled him. But AI did it by itself. He started aging my brother. I go, that's not him. I go. And then it changed their hairstyles.
- [43:46]
A
And I said, oh, that's funny.
- [43:47]
B
I'm like, I want to preserve some things. I'm like, let's keep this as timely as we can.
- [43:54]
A
Because Chad said. Because I was like, oh, remove the birthday crown. And it said something like, no, we need the permission of the person. I was like, well, you're never getting that right.
- [44:03]
B
Sorry.
- [44:04]
A
Sorry, Chad.
- [44:05]
B
But for me, I've had to re. Define grief because it's not grief anymore. You know, I've accepted it, I've embraced it, I've invited it. Because at the end of the day, you know, as we're aging now, more people are going to start passing on.
- [44:18]
A
Yeah.
- [44:18]
B
So we better. Like, I'm like, okay, so. And then I started putting myself into, you know, after my sister passed away, it was, it was purely a defense mechanism with, with me being terrified of my sister or my, my wife and child dying in a car accident or just, you know, something happening. Like, I became so hyper vigilant. It was, it was lunacy and. But that's a defense mechanism of saying, okay, how am I going to pray myself for the next Time.
- [44:46]
A
Well, it is. It's how you process, I think, at least for me. Like, it's like I am taking the trauma or whatever that word is of what happened around the loss. And, you know, you're projecting it onto everything else because you're not quite sure what to do with it. And I think one of the things that I think is great about these conversations is that there. I just know that there are people listening who have those same thoughts, whether they're, you know, these same things that we've discussed, but they're feeling like they're the only one that has it. Because I know when I was having those feelings, I was convinced I was the only one having them. But honestly, I think more of us do then don't. For those people listening. And this is kind of a. I don't know, like a. A umbrella question, and there's no right answer or whatever. But I always. I've had people say, like, I love about the show is that you get. You give these takeaways, right? Like, there's these opportunities for people listening to just think about it. Or for people who even. And you said this earlier. What did you say? You said, none of us are free from dying. Right? Like, we're not making it out alive. Like, if you haven't experienced loss yet, unfortunately, you will. You know, like, it's just. It's part of.
- [45:55]
B
It's a matter of time.
- [45:56]
A
It's a matter of time. So if people are listening, if they're early in their grief or they're just. They're trying to survive. And I, you know, like, I think your story's really important because you talk about sort of the decades of handling it and now how it's not grief anymore, it's longing and it's all these things, but in the beginning, you're trying. You're. You're really just trying to survive. What. What advice would you give or what words would you share, you know, for people early in.
- [46:25]
B
So a friend of mine, Jen, over the winter, or was it in leave? It was like five or six months ago. She lost her husband and her father within a month, and she was just stricken. And we chatted and we talked to him. I said, you got to feel the. Feels like you just simply have to, but your body doesn't want to.
- [46:47]
A
Yeah.
- [46:48]
B
Your mind doesn't want to. And it's like you will go in a shock. And once again, I shouldn't say you. I can't speak for another person. I just know.
- [46:57]
A
No, no, no.
- [46:58]
B
And I just. You Know, once again, there's. There. Some people are stoic. Some people can feel their emotions real quick and let them out. I couldn't do it. I just. So my advice to anybody is right, like, absolutely. Write down what you're thinking and feeling. Because you've got to. You've got to, number one, acknowledge it. You've got to honor it, and you got to validate it. You just simply have to. And you. And you should share it with somebody, whether it's going to be a counselor or a close friend or a family member like you. Just the sooner that a person is able to do that, it's going to minimize the suffering, I think. But it's also going to place things in perspective, too. Death is just such a personal understanding because once again, the way we deal with it, it's about us. It's all in tunnel. So I've embraced, like, I don't fear death at all. Zero. Like, no fear of it whatsoever. I don't want it, but I don't fear at all. So for my funeral, like, I want a Viking funeral. Like, I want to give people a party. I want to give them a bow and arrow. I go, there's gonna be a bonfire. It's gonna be lit at midnight, and you're gonna put me on a boat and you're going to light my ass on fire. And I love it. And the music's going to play as soon as I go on flames. So, you know, to me, death is a graduation. It's like, okay, you were here, now you're there.
- [48:41]
A
Yep.
- [48:42]
B
And that's just the way if it just feels right to me, I love,
- [48:47]
A
you know, and I've had guests on the show who've talked about this too. Right. It's feeling the. Feels like I had one guest who talked. And it's very similar to what you're saying, but, like, you gotta have the lows to feel the highs. Like, you know, otherwise you're just doing this constant thing. And. And I think it's. It's doing the work. And whether that work is through therapy or whether it's through writing or whether it's through conversation or reading or, you know, however you tap into it, I think, you know, you're 100% right. And I love it. I love the idea of, you know, I've said it before. I was like, I want my. I want my death to be a. You know, my funeral is going to not be stoic and sad. It's going to be a celebration of life, of, you know, the Shit. We did.
- [49:29]
B
And it's not going to be a requiem for me. It's going to be a celebration.
- [49:33]
A
No, I'm with you on that.
- [49:35]
B
So. But people, like, you've got to honor it, like. And you got to honor it for you and for them, you know, and it's like, you got to honor the whole relationship, you know, honor the circumstance and depend. You know, it's going to be different depending on the relationship and. And the age of the person and how much they are suffering. And now all of it, you know, and all of it, like, what the circumstance of the death was. And it's. It's just, you know, and I don't. I'm not invalidating, nor am I minimizing the suffering, because it's suffering. There's no two ways about that, you know, for the individual and. Or for the, you know, for. For the witnesses, I'll say for the. For the. The loved ones. And then obviously, absolutely can be for the person that passes away. So the big, you know, whether it's illness or it's a tragic accident or anything that goes on with that, it's. There's so much to. To really delve into, to dissect and process. You got to process it.
- [50:38]
A
No, and I think it's just, you know, I've enjoyed this conversation so much because I do. I do believe. And this is a weird thing to say, maybe, but, like, grief. Grief has been a gift for me because it has allowed me to see the world in such a different way, to tap into things. And you sort of said it like, this appreciation for the life that we have and for the moments and for me. And I'm not perfect at this by any means, and I have to remind myself sometimes a lot of it, but, you know, each day is not guaranteed, right? Like, you've got to live this life with, you know, not careless and reckless, but with this idea that, you know, I. I always laugh, like, it's the people who, like, oh, I don't eat this. I don't drink this. I don't do this. I don't do this because I want to live forever. But then, okay, you're gonna live a long time, but are you gonna be miserable? You know, like, you can't cut out all the fun stuff.
- [51:27]
B
Like you're trying so hard not to die that you're not living.
- [51:30]
A
You know, so it's like. And that balance is different for everybody, right? People have to figure that out. But I do feel like grief has taught me some of that and. And I love this conversation with you because it's taught me some things, too. Or it's. It's given me different things to think about. And it doesn't have to be all doom and gloom. In fact, it can be really. You know, it's just not.
- [51:49]
B
No, it's not. And there. But there is that juxtaposition. Like you. The. One of the models that I live by is the only way out is through it. And it's like you've got to face it, and you can't go around it, above it, or underneath it. Like, you've got to face the shit, and then you got to face the shit of the shit. Like, go in. Go in to come out. And on the other side is beauty. Like, the bigger the pain, the bigger the beauty.
- [52:16]
A
I entirely agree. And I feel like that is. I feel like there's so many things I could talk to you about, but I love that you said that just now because I feel like that is such a great message to leave the audience with. Right? Like, don't be afraid of the pain. And, you know, and I always feel like I have to be careful saying that because obviously there is. There are other things that. That could play into that. But. But I don't know. I think that I see the world in such a beautiful way now that I didn't before. And it's not, you know, it just gives you this ability to really, you know, go through it. Like. Like you're not escaping it, like, squirming underneath it or trying to leap over it. It's not going to work. Go through it.
- [52:58]
B
It's not going to work. You know, and, and, and, you know, you. You watch it, like, as you're raising kids, like, kid. It's painful growing up. It's very painful growing up. So that process, rite of passage, like, you have to go through pain. It's growth. Like, it's growth.
- [53:13]
A
It's how we get where we want to be.
- [53:16]
B
Yeah.
- [53:17]
A
Well, Chad, thank you so much for this conversation. I am. It's been a long time coming, so I am grateful for you for being a guest here on A place of. Yes. And I am. I'm grateful to have met you. So thank you for being here.
- [53:29]
B
Thank you so much, Heather. And it was great spending time with you. And we'll chat again soon. Soon, I hope.
- [53:35]
A
Thank you for listening. To A place of. Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it to see you Next time on a Place of Yes.