She Lost 14 Family Members — And Chose Joy Anyway

Summary

A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast
Episode: She Lost 14 Family Members — And Chose Joy Anyway
Host: Heather Straughter
Guest: Dr. Dee Williams, Grief and Loss Expert
Date: April 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this profoundly moving episode, Heather Straughter is joined by Dr. Dee Williams, a grief and loss expert whose own story of compounded loss is both heartbreaking and illuminating. Dr. Dee shares how she endured the deaths of 14 family members, including her entire immediate family, and her own near-fatal illness. Together, Heather and Dr. Dee explore living with "compound grief," the concept of "grief seasons," and, most importantly, the possibility and necessity of reclaiming joy even amidst deep sorrow. Through personal reflection, practical advice, and genuine empathy, they offer listeners hope and a reminder that no one has to grieve alone.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Dr. Dee’s Story: Surviving Compound Grief

• Family Deeply Impacted by 9/11
  • Dr. Dee recounts her mother’s near escape from the 110th floor of the World Trade Center on 9/11 and the subsequent loss of four close family members to “9/11 cancer” over the next 20 years.
    • “My mother went to work. My father dropped her off… and the World Trade Centers were hit by two planes… My mother… walked down from the 110th floor, walked home from Manhattan to Queens and finally reached safety.” (05:01)
  • The losses spanned from 2019 to 2026, including her parents, aunt, uncle, and only sibling.
    • “So since I want to say 2019, I have a total of 14 people who have passed in my family, including my own illness.” (06:13)
• Personal Health Crisis
  • After her sister passed, Dr. Dee herself became seriously ill and was told by doctors she might not survive.
• The Weight of Being 'The Sole Survivor'
  • Dr. Dee describes the emotional impact of being the last living member of her immediate family and how it shapes her perspective as a mother and community member.
    • “I was the sole survivor of the Brown family.” (05:18)
• Legacy of Family Love and Resilience
  • She honors her parents’ love story and how they raised her: “My father's family was one of those people that my mother's family gave food to. So they, they knew each other their entire lives.” (08:03)

The Reality and Complexity of Grief

• Grief Seasons
  • Both Heather and Dr. Dee stress how grief is cyclical and tied to anniversaries, birthdays, and holidays, not just the immediate aftermath.
    • “It’s amazing that we’re doing this during my grief season... Their birthdays are April 2, April 7, anniversary of death has just passed...” (09:02)
• Grief is Not Linear
  • Dr. Dee teaches that you don’t “get over” grief; rather, you evolve and grow around it.
    • “Grief doesn’t go away. Grief stays there. But we grow around it.” (25:17)
• Expanding Grief Policies
  • Dr. Dee changed bereavement policies in her workplace to offer 10 'grief days' employees could use over three years, recognizing the ongoing nature of grief rather than limiting support to immediate days after a loss.
    • “I changed the policy from a bereavement policy to a grief policy... they could use at their choosing whenever they wanted for up to three years after the person’s passing.” (13:35)

Finding—and Choosing—Joy

• Differentiating Joy from Happiness
  • “Happiness is temporary, but joy is everlasting. Joy is internal… I wanted to be able to help individuals not just get joy, but to restore bountiful joy.” (10:28)
• Building Restoring Bountiful Joy
  • Dr. Dee founded an organization named “Restoring Bountiful Joy” after her sister’s passing, intentionally using her parents’ initials (RBJ) as a tribute. The mission is to help others reclaim deep, lasting joy after loss.
    • “I wanted to be able to help individuals… restore bountiful joy, which is a higher level of joy.” (10:28)
• Permission to Feel Joy Again
  • Both discuss the guilt that accompanies moments of happiness post-loss, and the importance of countering that with self-compassion.
    • “When they have joy, not to feel guilty about it… Is it okay to go… with my family and be joyful? That’s what my parents would want.” (37:54)

Maintaining Connection to Loved Ones

• Signs, Dreams, and Tangible Legacies
  • Dr. Dee shares stories of feeling her loved ones’ presence—through dreams, family recipes, and physical artifacts like her father’s sermon binders written in her mother’s handwriting.
    • “All of these binders are filled with her handwriting on typing paper of my father's words." (28:53)
• Carrying on Family Traditions
  • The bittersweet process of inheriting family roles after loss, particularly during holidays.
    • “It transitioned because she's not here. So that day is really difficult because I'm like, we're not supposed to be here. We're supposed to be at my house.” (33:00)
  • Creating joy through warm memories and new traditions, e.g., using her mother’s pan to make Thanksgiving stuffing.
    • “I have a pan that my mother used to make her stuffing... I use that pan for stuffing for Thanksgiving.” (36:54)

Practical Tools and Approaches to Healing

• Masterclasses and Community Support
  • Dr. Dee runs free, biweekly masterclasses open to anyone experiencing grief—from death, divorce, illness, or loss of identity.
    • “The masterclasses are free, and we do them bi-weekly. We just had one this past Tuesday… 90 minutes… I take people through some of the things that happen in a grief journey, explaining what grief is…” (19:55)
  • She stresses how universal—and varied—grief can be: “It's not limited to loss of life. It's loss of something else. Right? Loss of identity, the person that you thought you could be. Loss of a dream that's no longer happening.” (20:31)
• Sovereign Sisters Collective
  • Dr. Dee’s community for women of faith to gather, support each other, and share tools.
    • “We formed… a Sovereign Sisters Collective. We meet monthly, women of faith who come together and we sow into each other’s lives…” (44:59)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Compounded Grief:
  "Compound Grief is sort of the official name, but for those of us living in it, it's just heavy and it feels like a lot." — Heather (01:33)
• On the Work of Grief:
  "Joy is something that people can't take from you. Happiness is temporary, but joy is everlasting... I wanted to be able to help individuals not just get joy, but to restore bountiful joy." — Dr. Dee (10:25)
• On Living with Loss:
  "Grief stays there. But we grow around it... We evolve every day. We just—we learn how to survive with the grief." — Dr. Dee (25:17)
• On Permission and Guilt:
  "Am I allowed to go next week with my family and be joyful? And, you know, I thought about it—that’s what my parents would want." — Dr. Dee (38:48)
• On Community:
  "You’re not alone. There’s something about knowing you have community." — Dr. Dee (44:59)
• On the Necessity of Joy:
  "Without joy, without hope, it can be very hard to keep going." — Dr. Dee (40:59)
• On Grief in the Workplace:
  "This policy is so rigid... I changed the policy from a bereavement policy to a grief policy... employees to have 10 grief days that they could use at their choosing whenever they wanted for up to three years..." — Dr. Dee (13:35)
• On Loss and New Traditions:
  "You're honoring them and then creating your own." — Heather (34:53)
• On Signs from Loved Ones:
  "Aunt Betty came to me in a dream and told me to check on her baby, to make sure that she was okay." — Dr. Dee (17:21)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:51 — Dr. Dee begins her story of family loss tied to 9/11.
• 05:04–06:20 — Loss of immediate family members and becoming the "sole survivor."
• 09:02 — Discussing the concept of “grief seasons.”
• 10:23 — Founding Restoring Bountiful Joy and the meaning of joy.
• 13:15–14:30 — Revising workplace bereavement policies to support ongoing grief.
• 16:56–18:32 — Ways of staying connected to deceased loved ones and their ongoing spiritual presence.
• 19:55 — Description of Dr. Dee’s free masterclasses and the meaning of grief.
• 25:17 — Teaching that grief is not linear and the “grief in a jar” analogy.
• 29:53 — The role of physical memories—like her father’s sermon binders written by her mother.
• 33:28–34:53 — Adapting to family traditions after loss.
• 37:54 — Advocating for reclaiming joy and overcoming guilt.
• 44:59 — Final takeaway: community and “you’re not alone.”
• 46:33 — Where to find Dr. Dee and her work (www.drdarlenewilliams.com).

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Main Takeaways

• Grief can be heavy, lonely, and deeply complex—especially after multiple or unexpected losses.
• Healing is not about “getting over” grief, but about evolving and carrying the legacy of those we love.
• Grief is not linear; it comes in seasons, and support—both personal and institutional—needs to reflect this.
• Joy is not only possible after loss but necessary, and reclaiming it honors loved ones and oneself.
• Community, open conversation, and self-compassion are essential to surviving and thriving after loss.
• “Life is for the living”—and embracing joy is a radical, restorative act.

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How to Connect with Dr. Dee Williams

• Website: www.drdarlenewilliams.com
• Email: [e-mail]

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If you’re grieving: You are not alone. This episode is a reminder that it’s okay to feel your sadness, to carry on traditions in new ways, to laugh again, and to seek the support you need.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Heather Straughter and this is a place of yes. In each episode we have honest conversations about grief. The messy parts, the unexpected moments, and the ways we begin to heal through heartfelt stories and expert advice. My hope is to offer you comfort, connection, and a reminder that you don't have to navigate this alone. Today I'm joined by Dr. Dee Williams, a grief and loss expert who helps people restore peace and joy after life changing loss. And I connected with her work immediately because reclaiming joy is a huge theme on the show. In this conversation, Dr. Dee shares her family's 911 story, the profound losses that followed, and what it means to carry grief while still choosing a life that holds joy. We also talk about why grief isn't linear, why grief season is real, and how people can find support that actually helps. This is powerful, practical, and full of heart, and I'm grateful to share it with you. So I am here today with Dr. Dee Williams. She is known officially as the grief and loss expert, helping individuals and leaders restore peace and joy after losses. And what connected me instantly to her when I found out about her was the idea of reclaiming joy after grief. It's a huge theme here at A Place of. Yes, it is a huge theme for me personally. And even 15 years into my grief journey, I. I still have to work hard at it sometimes, but I think it is hugely important. So, Dr. D, welcome to A Place of Yes.

[B]

Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here and looking forward to this conversation.

[A]

So before we get into your work, I would love to start with your story. You've experienced multiple losses in your life. Compound Grief is sort of the official name, but for those of us living in it, it's just heavy and it feels like a lot. And I was hoping that you could just start by sharing your personal story.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So I definitely look at grief and loss as a journey. And, you know, I try to make sure that the individuals I work with understand that. So I'm going to go back to 1980. My mother was, you know, going to work downtown Manhattan. We're in New York City. And she worked at 110th floor at the World Trade Center. And she was on the subway and she was standing by the door and someone reached over and grabbed her chain. I mean, you see my parents actually on my chain there. And then from that moment forward, my father, who if they were alive this year, they would be turning 81 and married for 61 years, he said, okay, no more. Rev. Brown said she's not going to take the subway to work anymore. So he drove her to work from Queens, downtown Manhattan every single morning and went back and picked her up. And I think that's significant because September 11, 2020, 22,001, my mother went to work. My father dropped her off. I had just spoken to her. I was home because I had just come home from the hospital from giving birth to my last child and the World Trade Centers were hit by two planes. Bobby was on the 110th floor. I spoke with her for probably 10 minutes until we found her. I want to say 48 hours later, after she had walked down from the 110th floor, walked home from Manhattan to Queens and finally reached safety. At that point, my mother, my father, my uncle, my mother's brother and my aunt, his wife were all down at, at the World Trade center as well as my husband who just retired from 30 years as the chief with NYPD. So he was called down to work. But my father sat at the end of the Brooklyn Bridge for those two days waiting for my mother to come home, watching as everyone else did. My aunt, who was an elevator operator was also down there as I mentioned, and my uncle rushed down to find her. So 20 years later, my parents unfortunately passed from 911 cancer and so did my aunt and my uncle. So four people in my family. My father passed in July, July 31st of 2019, my mother got sick when we noticed she was ill a year later, she got sick that June. By September, the doctor said she wasn't going to make it. So that's two, three months. And she was fine before at least of what we knew. But something tells me that because she was taking care of my dad, her childhood sweetheart, that she probably ignored some signs in her body. I brought her home for in home hospice in December. And then January 30, 2022, she passed away here in my living room a year later. And prior to that, her brother and

[A]

her sister also passed away from cancer as well. Yes, from the 911 cancer, yes.

[B]

A year and a half later, February 7th of 2024. So Daddy's 2019, Mommy's 2022. February 7th, 2024, my only sibling passed away. So that left me all, all alone. I was the sole survivor of the Brown family. October of 2024, six months after my sister passed away, I became ill out of nowhere and the doctors told me I wasn't going to make it. I had four procedures from October 6th of 2024 to December 15th. So I stand here as someone who has not only lost their entire childhood family over the past. It's 2026 now, so seven years. But there were multiple other people. Aunts, uncles, cousins. My father's younger brother just passed two weeks ago. So since I want to say 2019, I have a total of 14 people who have passed in my family, including my own illness.

[A]

That is, I mean, people say compound grief, right? And I think, you know, they sort of think compound more than one. 14 is intense. I mean, that is a lot. And I just want to, I don't know, share my, my support for you and my thoughts with you because I do think it's a lot. And so many of us in our own grief journeys feel that heaviness. But it's. I always think it's important to share with people that you're not alone. And even though I can't step in your shoes, I am sending you love and support for that. Because even when we have a smile on our face, even when we're working so hard to support others and to find our joy and to remember that life can be good and beautiful, it can feel hard. And I just, I do. And we may have talked about this before, but I love so much the story of your parents. And so my husband's parents are so similar and they both have since passed away. But when you tell the story of something happening to your mother and your father, saying no more. That was my in laws. That was Don and Shirley Straughter, 100%, you know, and I just, God, I don't know. My son had just been born and he's 21, and they then had celebrated 50 years of marriage. So she passed away, I think, four years ago, and he passed away a little over a year. But they were together since they were, I think, in their late teens and just that magical love. And I just, I think, you know, you must feel blessed to have grown up with that kind of love.

[B]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. They were together since they were babies. You know, they grew up in Alabama together. Their families knew each other. You know, my father was the very, very poor family. He was the oldest of, of 10. And now they've since passed away. A lot of them only I think four left. And mommy was the, you know, the wealthy family, had the farm with the animals and all the food, and they gave food out to the community. My father's family was one of those people that my mother's family gave food to. So they, they knew each other their entire lives.

[A]

It's a beautiful, it's a beautiful thing when that. That kind of happens. So these losses for you, and you mentioned this, you said, you know, you're the only living person in your immediate family. How has that. Like, how do you carry that on a daily basis? And how does that impact you as a mother? And you as, you know, just. It's gotta be heavy at times.

[B]

Yeah, it's definitely heavy. And it's amazing that we're doing this during my grief season.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Their birthdays are April 2, April 7, but as I mentioned, anniversary of death has just passed, so Mommy's was January 30th. It must have just was two weeks ago or three weeks ago, February 7th. So this time is always challenging, and it can be challenging as a wife, as a mother. You know, when I look at my grandchildren, you know, Kacen is one and a half, Porter is seven. And I see them, it's like, my parents would have been so happy to see them. They would have been so proud to see their great grandchildren. So that's difficult, them not ever getting to experience that. When I look at milestones in my life and things that I'm doing, you know, I feel the emptiness of them not being there. But I also, you know, try to continue to live the way that they raised me. And I say they because I was the baby. So my sister was four years older than me, so I'll give her some kudos for raising me as well. But, you know, my business is, you know, one Darling Williams Consulting, of course, but the one that was birthed in 2024 after my sister passed restoring Bountiful Joy. That one, that's. That's the hard work, right? Because it also. It has their initials, RBJ. Reverend Robert Brown Jr. And Betty Jean Brown.

[A]

Oh, I love that.

[B]

Intentionally. Yes.

[A]

That is amazing.

[B]

And the goal is, you know, me being a person of faith. Reverend Reverend Dr. Donnie Williams. For me, joy is something that people can't take from you. Happiness is temporary, but joy is everlasting. Joy is internal. And oftentimes, when we go through a season of grief and loss, we feel like we can't have joy again. We feel like we. Or we feel guilty if we had that joy. So I wanted to be able to help individuals not just get joy, but to restore bountiful joy. Bountiful joy, which is a higher level of joy. So that's how I carry it. To answer your question, I carry it in the sadness, of course, but also I try to carry the joy I love so much.

[A]

I wrote down a few things there because there was so much of what you said that, I think was really meaningful. And one of the reasons I love doing this podcast is obviously, I think these stories and these conversations are so important for so many. But I also get these, like, tidbits from everybody I talk to. And I love how you kind of made that differentiation between joy and happiness. Yeah, like, happiness can be fleeting. It can be a quick emotion. It can be all of these things, but true joy is kind of within. It is part of, you know, it's something that we can. Can hang on to. And I love the idea of, like, the goal being, like, bountiful joy, like, the goal being we can still have that. And I also. It's. It's. The grief season idea for me, is a very big one, too. And I never used to use those words. And you are the second person I've talked to who kind of called it their grief season. And I like it because it gives sort of a. A clear meaning to it. I used to just call them my dark days because I, you know, it was Jake passed away. My son passed away. When? On December 8th. So at some point in those days, like post Thanksgiving, early December, I never quite know exactly when it's going to hit, but, like, that pit in my stomach returns, and I'm cranky and I'm sad and I'm moody, and I cry at the drop of a hat, and I'm not a huge crier, but all of a sudden, I'm weepy. And it goes through. You know, there's the holidays, and then there's my birthday, and then there's my other son's birthday, and it goes sometime into mid January, and I never quite know the length of it, but it's gonna be there. And then it happens again in May around his birthday and his birthday. Jake's birthday was May 4, and my husband's is May 7. And then there's Mother's Day, which is no longer an easy day for me. So there's those days, and I just know there's these pockets. But to call them grief seasons, I think kind of gives it a. A different kind of validity than just being like, oh, they're bad days.

[B]

You know, I thought about it, because the same exact thing that you just mentioned is what I go through doing certain days of significance. And, you know, when I was president and CEO, I worked in nonprofits and the city government as a leader. I thought about the bereavement policy, and I read through it, and I said, this policy is so rigid. You know, for an organization to state that you have to take three days immediately after some. Someone's passing, and it's only these people is very insensitive. So when I thought about my grief season, I said, if I'm having a day and I can't go to work, that needs to be okay. So I changed the policy from a bereavement policy to a grief policy. And I allowed employees to have 10 grief days that they could use at their choosing whenever they wanted for up to three years after the person's passing. Four days, just like that. If it's the birthday, if it's an anniversary, if it's just a day that you just can't get up in the morning because we can't control, like you said, when it's gonna happen. But we have to honor and be able to move forward in that day, in that season, the way that works best for us.

[A]

And we have to recognize that it is. That it's real. Like, these are real emotions and feelings among so many people. And I always say, you know, if you have not had. If you're not part. If you don't have your grief journey, and unfortunately, you will. It is one of the things, you know, there's very little way to escape this. Like, it's just the way it's gonna be. And I just. I think about how far. Like, how far we've come, and I think about having these conversations and the work you just said, I mean, how beautiful is that? I mean, that's not quite the right word. But this idea that. Yes, it's not just, oh, you can take the immediate days off, or you can take the days of the service off. The idea that you could have time for up to three years, because it's hard. And sometimes those. I barely remember some of those days, like, between. I remember pockets of after Jake died through his services, but I don't really. I remember it getting really hard after the services because everybody leaves. There's no longer a. You're not. There's no point. Like, you know what I mean? Like, all of a sudden, the service was sort of. To get through that, but then all of a sudden after that, everyone goes home and you're supposed to go back to normal and nothing.

[B]

Everyone does. Yeah, everyone else goes back to normal, and life happens. You're expected to go back to work, things continue. But you're still, like, in your grief season, in your grief journey, because especially you're the one that was doing everything and putting everything together. Now is when the phone calls stop and the peace lilies stop. And all that happens. It's like, what now? So that's why I thought it was really important to have those grief days.

[A]

I think it's wonderful. And we've talked to a couple people. I think I talked to you, who really have focused on that, too, like, in grief in the workplace. Because I think it's such an important way to honor the people who work in companies and stuff and to acknowledge that grief is sort of ongoing and it's not this, like, you know, linear process. It is with you always. You mentioned sort of, you know, the emptiness, I think you had said, of, like, the idea that so many people have left. Do you feel connected in particular ways to your father, your mother, your sister? You know, do you have ways where you believe or know that they are with you one way or the other?

[B]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, because we were such a close family to really just be able to hone in on their spirit and in the tools and the gems that they left me. My cousin who lives in California, it was actually her. Her mother and father who passed away also. She claims she's my mother's favorite niece, even though my mother has five other nieces.

[A]

Well, someone's gotta be the favorite.

[B]

I know. And she thinks it was her. I'll let her have that. She was actually. Her and my sister were the same age, 44 months apart, I think. And she called me a couple of weeks ago, and she said, are you okay? I was like, I'm fine. She's like, are you sure? And I was like, why? She said, because Aunt Betty came to me in a dream and told me to check on her baby, to make sure that she was okay. And, you know, that was so significant to your point of connection, because, as I mentioned, I did in home hospice. So the weekend of my mother's transition, it was a weekend that she went through her transition. I think she must have said 20 times, Darlene, are you okay? Darlene, are you okay? Mommy's transitioning. I can see everything that's happening. And she's asking me, darlene, are you okay? So when my cousin called me and said, aunt Betty told me to check and see if you're okay, I said, that's that connection. So I do feel that my mother's with me, my father's with me, my sister, they're checking on me. And I also hope that they're watching to see that they're proud of the things that I'm doing.

[A]

I am. That was gonna be my next question. So you led right into that Because I do have this strong belief, and I didn't always have it. Like, I've kind of evolved into it, but that idea of our people being proud of the work that we're doing because of them, like, not that it's necessarily their legacy, but it is this idea that, you know, and I. I do always say, also, I preface with saying, you know, I wish my son was still here, and I wish I was not as in, tuned and enlightened and all of these things and had him with me.

[B]

But.

[A]

But since he's not, I do. I hope he's, like, looking down on me, very, like, proud. And I have my own, like, weird signs and communications and things that I believe in and feel him close by. But I do think pride and proudness is one of those things, because we've taken this, what could be impossibly hard, and we've used it to have conversations and guide others through this hard time. And one of the things that you do that. I'm super intrigued, you know, you had mentioned your consulting, and I think I would love to hear more about what that actually looks like. But you also do these master classes, and they're available and they're. They're. Many of them are free, I believe, and they're there for people. So can you share a little bit of what that's like, what that work is like and.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. So the masterclasses are free, and we do them bi weekly. We just had one this past Tuesday. I actually had a call with someone right before this, this call who was on our masterclass, and she wanted to. To. To talk separately. And it's 90 minutes. And, you know, I take people through some of the things that happen in a grief journey, explaining what grief is, because a lot of times we. We use the word and we don't even know exactly what grief is. And I think the important piece of that definition is I label it as something that you loved, that you're no longer connected to. Because I meet with a lot of people who are not only grieving loss of life, because it's not limited to loss of life. It's loss of something else. Right? Loss of identity, the person that you thought you could be. Loss of a dream that's no longer happening. It could be loss of a connection to a person that is still living, disconnected from your children, from your siblings, but you love them, but they're not here anymore. I have people who are grieving. One person in particular. Her father passed away, and she's not only grieving loss of life with him, but the loss of the fact that he will never walk her down the aisle. You know, I had just mentioned that my, my father and my mother will never see their great grandchildren loss of body parts from medical procedures. Grief is so profound. You know, you said this yourself, there's one statistic that we can't get away from. Everyone will always have their time on that front row at the funeral, right? We sit in the back row. We support people, but we will eventually be on the front row. But we'll also grieve other things. So these master classes have opened up a safe place for people to talk about their grief. Divorce is grief. And you'd be surprised the. The transparency that's in the chat when people are communicating, when we're going through the slides, the people who want to book a call afterwards and talk. I'm hearing so much compounded grief suicide, like so much loss. But the comments are really about finally having someone that understands from lived experience, but also can help guide people through. So I'm so grateful that God gave me the. The vision opportunity to have these classes, but then also to take the next step because I related to, you know, going to church, right? So you go to church on Sunday morning or whatever day you worship, you hear the word of God from the minister, you go home, everything's the same, and you don't have any tools or real strategies to move forward and activate what you were just taught. And that's what we do. The masterclass is at Open Forum to get a window into what's possible. And then we continue. Because you don't want to leave people unprepared, Especially in a season of grief. It can be a very trying time, but it can also be very dangerous if you don't have a partner and a way to manage it.

[A]

I think so much of what you just said is so important and so profound because I really think grief is one of those words, right, that people throw around without truly giving. I don't wanna say proper thought, but really giving meaning to it. And I love how you said, can you kind of do the definition of grief? And it reminded me of a conversation I actually had just yesterday where the woman I was speaking to said, grief is love. Like, right, like grief comes from love. And I just. That resonated with me as much as sort of this conversation that you're having, because people think of. People often think of grief in just sort of one way. And they think of it as this, like, dire sadness after loss. But when you really tap into it and have the tools. And like you said, like, activate what we talk about and learn, and learn how to have it in your daily life. It can really be. You can live alongside it in a kind of very positive way. And I just think that that is so insightful of you to recognize that people are going through this and they're going through so much grief. And I remember early on when Jake was still alive, but after he had his first seizure and he was very, very ill, and we just knew our life was gonna be very different. Like, you know, he went from being a healthy 8 month old to not virtually overnight. And when in that, like, adjustment, people kept telling me, like, you have to grieve the life you thought you were gonna have. And for years, years, I fought that. I was like, absolutely not. I thought it was like, disrespectful to Jake to, like, tap into that feeling because I was like, I don't want him to think he's not enough. Like, I just. But eventually I stopped and I listened and I heard what those words really meant and they kind of freed me a little bit. Right. Like, it's important because it's. It's okay to grieve things. And it's. It's not just reserved for loss. I mean, we think of it in terms of initial loss, but there's all these other avenues.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we teach something in the masterclass, two things I want to mention. So we dispel the stages of grief because we teach that you can go through those stages, but grief is not linear. Right. You don't have to go through denial and anger and everything at the same time or in a certain order. It's wherever you are in your stage. And you may be in one stage for two years before you even see another stage, if you do so. Freeing people from the notion that this is how it has to be, and if it's not this way, something is wrong with me. I also do a visual of having grief in a jar and looking at grief as it having to go away. It doesn't go away. Grief stays there. Right. But we grow around it. And I show how grief is there. And instead of grief getting spread smaller, getting bigger, we evolve every day. We just. We learn how to survive with the grief, and that's okay too. So for someone to feel that, oh, you have to be over it by now, or it's been 10 years, it's been 15 years. No, no. Grief is love, like you said, with nowhere to go, because you're not connected to that person physically anymore or that thing. So we grow around it, and that's okay.

[A]

I had a guest a couple seasons ago, and she wrote a memoir, and it was called the Grief Jar. And it was 100% that analogy that you talked about, because for her, she had lost her daughter, and she was struggling. Like, she was really unsure where to find her purpose, and she had some guilt associated with it, and she had all of these emotions, and someone. And I don't remember how, whether it was just, like, on the Internet or someone had sent her, like, someone told that analogy, and it was like the switch that flipped for her, and she ended up writing a book and sharing her memoir and talking about it more and facing it more. And, you know, her daughter had a guide dog, and one of their dreams was always to be able to take that dog into schools and hospitals and to be like a. Not a guide dog. What am I trying to say? The. I can't even think of the word.

[B]

What animal?

[A]

A support animal? Yes. Like, you know, like. So they wanted to take it to the hospital, and unfortunately, her daughter had passed away before that became a reality. But now she does it. She takes Brody, the dog and goes into local hospitals and visits kids and visits chronically ill people and terminally ill people and goes and does all of that with her daughter's dog now. And it's just. And so that analogy, I love that you use it, because I know for her and for other people, sometimes you just need. Whether it's a visual representation or it's someone using words, like, it doesn't. The same thing doesn't connect for everybody. So having these different ways where people can sort of say, okay, that makes sense. Like, that's what grief is.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And when you say that, my reverend side comes out, this description that says, we must be all things, all people, so we may win some, because everyone is different. So to be able to do things in a different way, to explain, because you never know what someone's going to hold onto and latch onto. And that may be the thing that's their aha moment. And that's important, to be able to reach people that way.

[A]

When you talk about things like that, does it make you feel more connected to, like, your father? Because I know he was a reverend. Like, does that. Are you like, daddy's here. Like, are you like. I mean.

[B]

Oh, yes. I mean, you can see behind me, this one shelf, these binders are some of my father's sermons, and they're all over my office. The thing about that is, my father became ill towards the end. My mother would literally write down and transcribe all of his sermons. So all of these binders are filled with her handwriting on typing paper of my father's words. So, you know, I'm able to just have his legacy with me in so many ways and her legacy that I feel very connected to them. And I think it's, it's a blessing to be able to have these gems. We all have different things that we hold on to from people that we may be disconnected to. And I think that's important because it helps us not to lose sight and not feel like we've lost that entire connection. They're definitely inside our heart and our mind. But I love the fact that I'm able to have physical pieces.

[A]

I was going to say it's very concrete and especially if it's written in your mom's handwriting. Those are very like, you know. So I have been thinking about this and talking about this particular piece for a while and both of my parents are still living. My husband a year ago lost his father and I think I'd mentioned previously, lost his mother. And there's this idea of, you know, even though it's, you know, people will say it's the circle of life and it's sort of how it's supposed to happen, but there is this piece of all of a sudden you're at. You're an orphan for lack of a better word. Right. Like you have. And you're not really, but you kind of are. And I've seen that. I've seen the ways in which my husband has acclimated to that, you know, and, and his, his mother had Alzheimer's and at the end was difficult to, you know, so he would call and it was kind of a one sided conversation. Do you know what I mean? Like, he would just. But he would have it in his calendar a couple times a week to make sure he called and just to, to not let time go by. And then when she passed away and father was still there, he would call two or three times a week, same thing. And this time he didn't take it out of his calendar. So even though it's been a year, there are still, I don't remember if it's two or three times a week. Like the little. The alarm will go off and it'll say, call Father. And I know, or I think I know that that gives him a moment of pause, like he knows he can't, but I, and I don't know if he Uses it as a time to continue to chat or to update. But I think that idea, and I know we talked about it a little bit, but like that idea of having lost your family, your immediate family, who you were very close to, and then being the sole survivor, there's something about that I think that is. It's almost like the thing that so many people fear. And I say that because I think having lost my son, people look at me almost like they're afraid I'm contagious sometimes, right? Like, oh, I don't want. Like it's the elephant in the room. Like, oh, she lost her kid. I don't want that. Like, how do I prevent that happening for me? And I wonder. It's a long winded way of saying it, but how do you deal with that? And do you feel. You know, because there's the individual losses, but then there's that. Not just the compound of them happening together, but just being alone now. And I know you're not alone in terms of grandkids and kids and your husband, but that other piece of you.

[B]

Yeah, that's a very good question. It's challenging, you know, so, you know, when my husband and I got married, we knew we had certain holidays. So Thanksgiving was my mother's holiday where we all went to my mother's house for dinner. Christmas was his mother's holiday, so we all went there and I did Mother's Day, so that all changed. Right? So it took a couple of years for me to then transition Mommy's holiday to my house. I know I do Thanksgiving and everyone comes here, but it's different. You know, my cousin and I just mentioned that lives in California because it was her mother and father that passed as well. We find ourselves on the phone Thanksgiving because she would call my mother for recipes. That day as she's cooking, I would call her. So that is. It's difficult. It's great to be able to take that role as now everything has transitioned to me, but it didn't transition to me because mommy was tired and she said, darling, you take the holiday. It transitioned because she's not here. So that day in particular is really difficult because I'm like, we're not supposed to be here. We're supposed to be at my house.

[A]

It's supposed to be different. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So it's difficult when moments like that happen and, you know, I'll even mention it's happening again because my mother in law's holiday was Christmas. So my mother in law is going through a stage of Dementia. And now she's no longer able to do Christmas. So my sister in law does it. So we go to my husband's sister's house. So it's seeing this shift. So now I felt the shift for Thanksgiving from my side of the family and now I'm feeling it with my husband's side of family with another significant holiday. So, you know, I think we all go through that and, you know, finding a way to manage it is challenging. But then I also go back to joint. I go back to, I have a book of my mother's recipes. So I can go in there and, you know, make her dishes. I can gather my children and my grandchildren together. And it's funny, my middle child, he's going to be 30, he said, this feels just like grandma's house. You're doing exactly the same way.

[A]

That must have made you so happy.

[B]

Oh, it makes me so happy. So there's joy in that for me. So it's difficult. But I also feel like I'm making my own tradition, but I'm also following the significance of my household, of my family.

[A]

It's like you're honoring them and then creating your own. I love that. I had a guest once who had talked about. And her mother died quickly and unexpectedly. And she talked, she referenced Thanksgiving because she said she was preparing Thanksgiving and all of a sudden it was on her when it was something her mom always did. And I don't remember if they did it together or if it was just the mom, but she was like, my mom never taught me, like, I hadn't learned yet how to make the turkey the way she did. And it was just such a, like. And it made me think about, like, wait, what are all the things I have to like, make sure that I have. Because it's one of those lessons right around loss, where even when you live with loss, you still have a piece of you that's like, I have more time. I don't need to do this now. But the fact is, you know, if you're thinking about something like, do it now, like, get those recipes, have those conversations, have the, you know, hey, teach me how you make that. Because I want to keep doing that for my grandkids. Or, you know, I think it's so. I think it's beautiful that you have the recipes and then you can put your own tweaks on it and that'll be important for your kids and your grandkids. You know, we kind of keep it going. I think of things that every Christmas, my mother. So my mom was born in Argentina, and she makes a traditional Argentine dish on Christmas Eve every year. And she uses a pan that was her grandmother's. So my great grandmother's. I mean, this pan has seen better days. But I will tell you, like, it is part of the tradition. And she does the garlic in it, and it's amazing. And I'm like, do I get that pan? Because it's just this, like, family piece, you know? And I think that acknowledging that and seeing that and then knowing that when my mom's no longer the one doing it, that my Christmas Eve, because my son loves Christmas Eve dinner, like, he absolutely adores it, you know, like, that will become something that carries on. And I think that those moments that can be really as challenging as they are, they're also really important and beautiful.

[B]

So. So you just gave me confirmation. You don't even know you did that. Thank you so much. So I have a pan that my mother used to make her stuffing in for Thanksgiving, and that pan is now mine. So I use that pan for the stuffing for Thanksgiving.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

So thank you.

[A]

You're welcome. See, isn't that funny? Like, it's just these things that are so important, and you wouldn't think about it, but they are.

[B]

I am. I am.

[A]

So you brought it back again to joy, right? Like, even in the hard point moments, hanging on to joy, is that when you do your masterclasses and consulting and phone calls and stuff, is that hard to share with people? Because I feel like it took me years to believe that grief and joy can go exist. Now I know it can. I'm obsessed with the idea of it. And I almost sometimes think because of grief, I have higher joy. Like, I think it's given me the opportunity to have bountiful joy. Like, to tap into that. Because I know the low. I can know the high. But is it hard for people to lean into that?

[B]

Yeah. So I wrote. I have 12 books on Amazon that I've written since my grief journey, and one of them is called Mother, Father, Sister, Moving Forward Without Pieces of My Heart, My Grief, But God. And in that book, in that workbook, I speak about the importance of joy and how to have joy after loss. And it's challenging. When I look in the comments during the masterclass, and particularly the form that people fill out before they get on the call, the common theme is wanting to have joy, is wanting to be able to smile, wanting to be able to move forward in joy, and then when they have joy, not to feel guilty about it. Right? To Feel like it's something that it's okay, you know, I'll share it. So next week we're going on a family trip, all of us. I mean my in laws, my mother, my father in law, my sister in law, my husband, my children, grandchildren, my children's friends, their significant others. We're going skiing and we've never done this. And in New York City, next week is the week the kids are out of school and school vacation because winter recess. And in preparing for this trip, I thought about it, I said, this is my grief season. We just got through the anniversary dates. Am I allowed to go next week with my family and be joyful? And you know, I thought about it. That's what my parents would want, that's what my sister would want. They wouldn't want me sitting here sad and alone, you know, spending the time with your loved ones because time is so precious. Time is the one renewable commodity that you'll never get back. I think about that in the joy because it's so important. Life is for the living, right? And we want to live it and live it 100%. People are passing away younger and younger every day. One of the 14 people is a 51 year old cousin who passed away from a heart attack at 51 years old. And he was sitting behind me at my mother's service and then he passed away shortly thereafter. So I see the suffering that people have because of not having joy. And the comments are not I want the person to come back or I wish I had more time. It's I want to be able to smile now in the grief. So that's, I think what led me to focus on the joy. Because without joy, without hope, it can be very hard to keep going.

[A]

You know, they talk about like the child loss, like club. I don't know that that's really, you know, but it's a club no one wants to join. And sometimes I think when you're in it, you. I didn't think this right in the beginning, but there's almost like this obligation to help others when they enter this club or into this, you know, and, and a couple years ago a friend of mine lost her daughter. It was a terrible battle. Like quick with cancer came unexpected. You know, senior year of high school was supposed to go to college, do great things. You know, just when it makes you think about, you know, the unfairness of life or just again like you said, how fleeting it can be and all of those things. But she reached out to me. I don't remember when, but like, shortly after Liv died, and she said, you know, am I ever going to laugh again? Like, am I ever going to? And I said to her, exactly. Almost like what you've said. I said, you will, and you should, and you have to. And it's gonna be hard the first time because you are going to find yourself laughing, and then you are going to probably feel horrible because there's that immediate, like, wait, I feel guilty about it. And I love what you said. Even now, am I allowed to do this? Because there's something in us that makes us say, no, you're not allowed to. You should never experience joy again, when, in fact, it's the exact opposite. And it took me a while, too, because I almost remember, like, the first time I was, like, out with friends, and we had a couple of drinks, and I was laughing, and for that split second, I forgot that my son had died. And then I felt awful, you know? But now knowing that, yes, they. Of course, they want us to live, and I love it. It's a great reminder. Life is for the living. Like, we're not here to be sad, and. And we're here to be sad for them because we miss them, but we are not here to live a sad life because that's not honoring them in any way.

[B]

Right? Exactly. Exactly. That's so true.

[A]

Life is for the living. I think it's. You know, it's one of the most, like, easiest things to say, but not always the easiest thing to live by or to remember, you know? I do.

[B]

And I remember it because my mother kept saying, darlene, are you okay? Darlene, are you okay? And she would want me to be okay. Yes. There are gonna be moments when I'm not. But at the end of the day, you know, when God gave me Restoring Bountiful Joy with their initials, I said, okay, we have to help people restore bountiful joy.

[A]

Well, I love that, you know, her ask, you know, are you okay? And then the dream. All of those are just. It's the signs when we. When we doubt ourselves, when we question, are we allowed to have this joy? It's the sign that you can go back. And, you know, I love restoring Bountiful Joy being their initials. To me, that's so amazing, you know? So the nonprofit that my husband and I founded after Jake died is called Jake's Help From Heaven, and we named it that because it's a very literal

[B]

sense of what the.

[A]

Of the work we do. You know, we help other families. You know, our kind of tagline is creating opportunities for Those with medical challenges to thrive, like, really, you know, people who are living the life that we lived with a very, very sick child or individual, how can we help them? And it's at the root of everything we do. It's Jake helping, you know, Jake helping from heaven. So it's. I love those kind of everyday reminders of their presence and of their, of why we do what we do.

[B]

Yeah, that's amazing. And being able to sow into the lives of other people. Like I said, my mother took care of my dad before he passed, so I took care of her, I did in home hospice. And to be able to continue her legacy of helping however I can in a way that I know she would be doing or want to do is amazing. So I love that nonprofit that you all have formed in your son's memory. That's amazing. Congratulations on that.

[A]

Thank you. So for the people listening who are, you know, where we were in our early stages, people who are just feeling stuck or overwhelmed or alone, you know, because I think that's such a huge thing with grief too. Like, people feel alone. What would you want them to hear today? What is their, like, biggest takeaway from this conversation?

[B]

Yeah, you know, the biggest takeaway and what I always say is, you're not alone. Right. You know, there's something about knowing that you have community. And that's why one of the things we formed is a sovereign sisters collective. We meet monthly, women of faith who come together and we sow into each other's lives. We help, we provide tools, we provide support. Because there's something about knowing you're not alone. And I think that's the biggest takeaway. Find a community. Find people that you can connect with. If it doesn't have to be 10 people, it could be one, it could be two. But it's important to always know that someone else is going through what you're going through. Right. Someone else has overcome what you've overcome. I love to say, God doesn't waste any pain. So while I've gone through compounded grief and many things, when I talk to people in my masterclass, I'll see people who gone through three and four and five deaths within the two, three month period. Which, you know, I'm like, oh my goodness, mine has been seven years. This person's gone through it so close together. So I would say, know you're not alone. Get connected to like minded people. Find your community. But also, if hope is fleeting, talk to somebody, right? Because. Because it's important to have that hope. Life is for the living. And if you can hear this podcast, you are living. So there's hope.

[A]

I love that. That is and lastly, where can people find you and your work and your masterclasses? What are some and we'll put things in the show notes as well. But what are where can people find you?

[B]

You can email me at info Dr. D. Dr. Darlene williams.com so info Dr. Darlene Williams.com and then the website is www.drdarlenewilliams.com Perfect.

[A]

Dr. D, thank you so much. I have enjoyed this conversation. I love I'm walking away with a little like little bit of lightness and taking some things away from what you've said. I appreciate the work you do. I'm so happy we connected. Thank you for being here.

[B]

Well, thank you for having me and thank you for the work that you are doing. You're honoring your son's legacy and his memory. So congratulations to you. You're helping many people.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it to see you next time on A Place of Yes.