B (2:46)

But.

A (2:47)

But I have been thinking a lot this week about a spin class I took, like, two years ago where the instructor said, sometimes to protect your yes, you have to say no. And I have been thinking about that. So my thing that I've said yes to has sort of been my piece. So I have said no to a couple of things this week because it just was gonna be too much and not even related to grief, just too much. Like, I just wanted to be home some nights on my couch. So I. My. My yes is actually a no. So that means it's open for anything. So what have you said yes to recently?

B (3:26)

Okay, but wait, I was about to say something similar that I'm like, oh, my God, Heather. I feel like I say yes to so many things because maybe this is the irony. I think there's a lot going on in the world that is incredibly depressing and can get me very down, can get anyone very down. When I. I am someone who, throughout my entire career, before grieve leave, was in the public sector. So I worked in government and in education. And right now, as things are really getting me down, I'm like, oh, my God. I just. I feel overwhelmed. My gut is to say no to doing more things because it doesn't feel as impactful. So I was actually thinking about this tension of the nos to get to a yes of. I've been really thinking through, what ways can I make an impact when the world feels overwhelming? Where are the biggest places that I can make a difference? And for me, it's thinking really locally here in North Carolina, where I live. And that looks like gathering friends together who also want to see change in our world. And last night, I hosted an event that was an absolute joy. So I said yes to hosting that event and named the tension of, like, let's be here together. Let's have. Let's say yes to celebrating in this moment while also recognizing that, like, damn, there's a lot going on that is really heavy right now in the world.

A (5:00)

I think that balance is so important. Right? Like, and it's. It's really choosing the yeses and also recognizing, I love what you said. And then we'll kind of segue into what we're here to Talk about. But I love that piece of when things feel so huge and overwhelming.

B (5:15)

Right?

A (5:15)

Cause like sometimes we wake up in the morning and I know I would just wanna bury my head in the sand. I'm like, I can't take it. But we can step back and like you said, focus locally. Like what can we do? What can our friends do? What can our like minded people? What can we do? So I love that. I love that you did that. I actually saw some of that on Instagram since I stalk you and it.

B (5:35)

Looked awesome in like the best way.

A (5:39)

In a non dangerous.

B (5:41)

I. You know what, Heather? You can stalk me however you want. Cause I love you and I am so comfortable with that. And it's fine. It was really fun last night.

A (5:49)

It looked really fun. It was great. So I. In prepping for this conversation and thinking about some of the different topics and really thinking about Grieve Leave because we touched on that last time we talked. But it's something that has stayed with me because I thought about how. What a big step that was. And for people who didn't listen to the previous episode, Grieve Leave is this kind of. It was something Rebecca did because she needed to figure out how to grieve and who she was with these losses. And it kind of. You're kind of encouraging people to do that however they can, like deface your grief. So last night I read your HuffPost article again that you had.

B (6:32)

Oh my God, thank you.

A (6:34)

That kind of, you know, went through the whole thing. And one of the things you wrote, and this is where I thought would be a good place to start, was that you realized you could not rest and grieve and work. And when I thought about those three things, those are the three big things that people when they've lost someone kind of get trapped in. But the thing that they usually get rid of is grief. Right. Most people.

B (7:03)

Or rest.

A (7:04)

Or rest exactly. Like you. Either you don't rest because you keep going because you avoid it, or you don't let yourself grieve and you bury it down, down, down. Like you push it down and you just work. But you flipped that. You said, you know what? I'm gonna take a. I'm gonna take a year. So can you walk me and your audience through? And my. This audience, how you did that? Like, how did you come to that decision and how did you make it happen?

B (7:31)

First of all, thank you and thank you for reading that piece. I love that piece. It is the, I think the longest.

A (7:40)

Form.

B (7:42)

Like freeform piece that I've gotten to do so far until my book comes out that I'm working on, but that this piece really captures. Like, oh my God, I felt so overwhelmed. And here's what I did about it. But I want to say first and foremost, like, it's not my recommendation that the average person quit their job for a year. Like, that's insane. And frankly comes from a place of privilege that I could even do that.

A (8:11)

Think about it. Yep.

B (8:12)

Oh my God, right? Like, if. If I were not extremely privileged to have the financial resources to be able to make that decision in the first place. Like, of course people shut out grief and rest first because they cannot take their foot off the gas pedal for work. It is not a feasible choice to make and it's just not realistic for me because I was in a very privileged position to be able to do that. My mindset was, I'm going to take my foot off the gas pedal at work. I am going to stop the professional path that I'm on to invest in these other two buckets to grieve especially, and also to rest that year. And in doing so, I want to create something with it that helps other people. And something that I said often in that first year was, yo, I quit my job. So you don't have to. Right. So you don't feel like, take some of the learning that I'm able to do in this particular year share on the Internet, like, maybe it resonates with someone else and maybe you will feel just seen enough that you can make a little more room for grief in your daily life so you don't feel so overwhelmed that you feel like you need to quit your job or you feel like you can't rest. But I. That I have to say, first and foremost, it comes from privilege.

A (9:43)

And that I think is. Is such an important delineation. And it's funny because we talked before, like, I kind of, you know, I was on that page. But I think that's so important for people to know that that grieve, leave, as it stands now, is not like, hey, everybody, quit your job and footloose and fancy free. And it's something that you were able to do, but as a result of that, you have kind of in an odd way, and this is a place where I think we connect. We have made ourselves like our primary job in many ways now is grief. And I think that that becomes this interesting switch of where when you become so comfortable and in tune with your grief and you can then you want to help other people figure that out. And that I think your grief, your actual grieve leave fueled that for you. Correct. Like, it opened this whole, like, life pivot.

B (10:39)

I didn't even think that I could combine for myself, my grief and work. And yet here we are. Right. Like, in that first year, I. I had a feeling that my overwhelm of loss might resonate with someone else. Like, I had a gut feeling that, man, I feel like there's no one really talking in my age range about the depth of sadness, the depth of grief that they feel when they lose a parent too young. There weren't enough voices out there. There were not enough voices at all talking about divorce and grief that goes hand in hand. And so, yes, I had a feeling that, like, okay, I think this is gonna help somebody. What I did not anticipate was creating a whole company out of this and that I literally am looking at the year Heather, because I'm like, what year is it that I would not have guessed that in 2025 I would have a company that would be called Grief Leave, that teaches people how to make room in their daily lives for grief, that creates safe spaces for grief at, you know, with your friends, with loved ones, for young people, for whoever that is. The coolest part for me personally is I. I get to rest and grieve and work now, you know, and there's so much. Why not rest?

A (12:03)

No restaurant? I was just gonna make a horrible joke. I was gonna say, we can rest.

B (12:07)

Were you gonna say rest when you were dead? I knew it. I, like, felt it. I felt you were gonna say that, and then I figured you knew it.

A (12:13)

So then I was like, I might as well put it out there. But so it's so interesting to me, right, because I think that we end up in these places and you kind of end up in this. Like, you know, it's not A to B. It's like this wiggly line. So your. Your grieve leave when you started, and correct me if I got this wrong, but, like, you really were thinking it's going to be like, this year of, like, rest and travel, and you wanted to go places where you could kind of connect with your dad and. And figure things out. I love that you were gonna go to Mexico or you did go to Mexico on the Day of the Dead, like, those type of things. And in back to that article, there was the one you kind of opened with this story of this couple who, like, did not know what to say when you said this. And they were kind of like, well, you should go hike. You Know, skiing in Switzerland or, like. Or hiking in the Alps or whatever it was.

B (13:03)

But people.

A (13:05)

How did you work through that? Because I'm sure people were like, what is this woman talking about, Right?

B (13:09)

Like, oh, my God. I mean, you have to understand that I am the last person that anybody who knew me would have expected to get off this very linear professional path that I was on, right? Like, I was type A achiever. I'm going to be president one day, girly. And, you know, I had re. I. I had. I still have a master's from the University of Chicago undergrad at Duke. I mean, very, very accomplished academically and professionally. And to make the choice to just get off the path that I was on, this robust professional career in government, in public service that I was incredibly proud of, to get off that path and say, you know what? I am going to go blog for a year, and I'm going to cry and think about grief. People thought I was absolutely insane.

A (14:07)

Did they think you were having, like, a breakdown? Like, I mean, were people like, hey, what is she doing?

B (14:11)

Or like, yeah, fully, absolutely, 100%. And I think also, I mean, people were worried about me, right? Like, I. To blow up my marriage in the way that I did and to do it pretty darn publicly, to have lost both of my parents, you know, my mom so young and my dad so suddenly and talk about it publicly, that shocked people. And I would say my. I had to, like, basically make new groups of friends and new. Meant find new mentors in my life, because a lot of my friends, I mean, my. I learned who my closest friends really were who were ready to support me, and saw that there was a chance to really help people through this. Whether it was a mental breakdown at the beginning, I don't actually think it was. Like, I think I approached this with a mindset of, like, I want to do this to help people. I'm going to write and think and explore this idea of grief with the intent of doing it publicly so that other people learn from it. Like, that is me. I am a public servant at heart. I'm an educator at heart. I mean, that is what I had spent my career doing. And so, yeah, people were like, what the hell is happening right now? And being at parties, which is how I opened that HuffPost piece, was like, parties with my old crew, you know, parties with people I'd rolled with previously or friends of friends who are like, oh, how lovely that you're gonna take a year off and go. Go travel. Like, you should go skiing in the Alps. And I'm like, ah, that's not the vibe of what this year is going to be. We didn't get it. And that's okay.

A (16:04)

It's interesting because I think, you know, I am considerably older than you and I think about like how like the first chunk of my grief journey, right, like, and it's so different than what I'm doing now. And I would say it was different for a decade, you know, just. Cause this kind of thing didn't exist. And I think that's why I'm so like connected to it and so into it, because I started my grief journey in that kind of like your kind of blogs. And these conversations, they weren't there. And if they were there, they were happening like privately, not publicly. No one really grieved publicly, or at least that I knew of. Like when Jake died, I was 35, I had like, Facebook was sort of a new thing. Like maybe I had like 70 friends that I knew from growing up or something. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, it wasn't what it was now, so it just. You had no choice or. I felt like I had no choice. I'm sure other people did do it differently, but I think part of what is so magical about the work that you're doing in this, this time period, again, trying to find the good in all things that aren't always great, is this, you know, is that this. The ability, and not just the privilege of it, but the thought, like the. The existence to be able to publicly grieve, like you said, and publicly blog and write about it so that someone else, so that someone like me at that time would have found a blog and been like, wait, her words are what I'm thinking. Or her words are my words and maybe I can respond and we can connect or I can follow this blog. Like, I just think that is so great. You know what I mean? So I am.

B (17:53)

Thank you.

A (17:53)

I. Look, I don't know, like, I don't know how to use the words, but like, I almost look up to you because I just think that you gotta make me cry. Stop. It's my job, you know?

B (18:06)

No, I like making people cry, Heather. No, absolutely not. But you know, but you know what? I feel like it's also full circle though, because we only like, shut grief out of the public space, the public square, your neighborhood, your community. We only shut out grief in the last, like, I don't know, 150 years, 200 years, probably less because it's such a, like a puritanical vibe of No, I must be proper grief. And like, grief becoming familiar. Yeah, yeah. Or like death becoming failure. That, like, oh, this person died. Our medical miracles couldn't save them. They're dying in a hospital now. They're not dying at home. So no one is seeing your agony. The ways. In. The ways that they used to see your grief up close and personal. When your neighbor died at home and you knew that his wife was grieving because you saw her crying and you.

A (19:11)

Could hear her crying or like. Right, Like. Yes, hear her. Yeah.

B (19:14)

And so I. I really. I am such a. I am an optimist about social media and the Internet. For all of the dangers, too. I get it. But I think it helps us stay connected about things now that are so innately human, like grief. It allows us to have a public square again, a public space to talk about these things that. Damn you just. It used to be so out in the open. It is so human to grieve. So human. And you don't know that that person in the car next to you is grieving. You can't hear them wailing. You can't. You, You. But you can talk about it on the Internet. I can video myself talking about it.

A (19:55)

I love that connection. And I have never thought of it that way. Right. Because I. I always think about, like, in other cultures and in other countries, we Grief is more open. Right. Like, and how isolated we have made it. But it's true. If you go back far enough, even.

B (20:09)

Here, not even that far, but even.

A (20:11)

Here, it was just a.

B (20:12)

More totally.

A (20:14)

And it is. And that's the one thing that is, like, there's a few themes that just come out in my conversations, and one of them is, it's gonna happen to all of us. You know, we are going to die. A, but B, we're gonna. That's the way the. It's how it's set up. Like, we are going to lose people. And whether we lose them suddenly and tragically and unexpectedly and quote, unquote, in wrong order, like I will say about Jake, you know, like, I mean, any of those things. But even if you lose people under the best of circumstances, if you lose your parents when they are 90 years old and you had this great. It's still. It's still loss.

B (20:51)

There's never a good time to make it.

A (20:53)

Oh, no, it's never. So it's. We're all gonna go through it. So I love this idea that exists now for some people where we can do this kind of publicly and we can do this together and we can, you know, and everything I say, not everyone's going to resonate with. But if there's a little piece and if there's a piece of what they hear from you, then that just kind of helps people totally. Right. Like, it just makes us not so alone and we shouldn't be alone at this stuff. In my.

B (21:18)

I totally think so. And that also means that our not everything we put out on the Internet is going to resonate with everybody.

A (21:25)

And that's okay. Like, that's totally okay.

B (21:28)

Like, I. I have some pretty dark humor, pretty dry humor that comes out on grieve leave. And that is great for some folks. And for folks that does not resonate with, that is okay. It truly okay. Right. You can't. In what we share publicly, I know that it is not going to resonate with everybody. And because it just can't.

A (21:53)

You know, I want to circle back to kind of when we first started talking about grieve leave, and you were kind of saying like, hey, I'm not telling people to take a year off. I understand that people can't. What are some things? And I know that you have resources out there, but what would you say to the people listening right now? What is something that people can, like, intentionally do as grieve leave? Do you know what I mean? Like, to kind of give themselves that space.

B (22:18)

Yeah, I feel like grieve. Taking a grieve leave doesn't mean quitting your job for a year. Doesn't even necessarily mean taking a few weeks off work, if you even have that kind of luxury. I think grieve leave is even beyond basic bereavement leave of three to five days, which is typical in America. I did not have that at all, by the way. I had no bereavement leave in my job and I had to totally use up all my vacation days. But anyway, that's a different conversation. A grieve leave can look like taking five minutes to listen to your person's favorite song. In the car we were talking about, you don't know that person next to you is in traffic, is grieving. They might be listening to their dead dad's favorite song. And that might be their five minutes of quote, unquote, grieve leave of just getting into their grief on their way home from work after a long damn week. And they can take those five minutes. You can kind of leave into your grief in the best way, make space for it, think about your person, sing the song, cry, laugh, whatever, dance, maybe it's a happy song. And take that space intentionally. That's what a grieve leave can look like. Let's say you have kids and you are like, I don't have time to go on a grief retreat. Right. I think maybe when you hear grieve leave, you think, oh, I'm gonna go pay lots of money to go on a grief retreat somewhere. Not necessarily. Maybe you take your kids to the park and you sit on a bench and you're watching them, and Maybe in those 20 minutes, you are intentionally remembering moments of you and your parents. Maybe you are intentionally remembering a moment of the friend that you lost or the child that you lost or someone that you lost.

A (24:23)

And.

B (24:24)

But you are doing that with. But you can create space wherever you are. I think that is what grieve leave looks like.

A (24:33)

And that, to me, like, all those examples that you just shared, like, I literally got chills because that is such an important takeaway for everybody. Even someone like me, who I think lives a pretty, like, publicly grief, grievy life and has done my work in grief. Those moments are exactly what it is about. And I love those examples because I do think it's the exact opposite of what so many of us are conditioned to do, which is to push it down. And this is not pushing it down. This is saying, like, hey, I don't. You know, because I think in this country, and I'm curious what you think about this. I think we have currently, like, there's. You either push it down, you don't deal with it. You're sort of very linear. Like, okay, I've done this, and now I'm done, and I'm done graving and, you know, put a bow on it and be done.

B (25:19)

Yay me. Five stages, five stages, all done.

A (25:21)

Check, check, check. But the other piece, though, and I struggled with this in my early years because a couple times, like, I would be taking Ethan to, like, a wave riders or a different, like, grief. Not therapy, but, like, just different grief groups. And that looked very different, too. That looked like a lot of people sitting in a circle talking about how they don't get off the couch, they cry all day, they don't talk out of bed. And it's just. That's not it either.

B (25:51)

So I think giving, not necessarily giving.

A (25:55)

These examples of, like, hey, give yourself 10 minutes. Maybe you give yourself the first 10 minutes when you wake up every day and you lock in to a memory, and maybe that memory makes you cry and feel really sad one day. But then the timer goes off and you get up, you know, like, you Kind of figure out a way to. Or at the park with your kids, or on the way home from the park with your kids, you tell a story about your mother, their grandmother, and you know what I mean?

B (26:21)

It's creating space in those tiny little moments. And even I feel like someplace, one particular environment, where the average person in America is like, oh, I have to push my grief down. I can't possibly make space for my grief here. Would be at work, right? Like, the examples that I just gave, that you just gave are all kind of outside this work setting where it's like, oh, okay, I'm allowed, if I have any permission, any space to grieve at all. It cannot possibly be at work. I think that is the mindset that we have built in. And yet I would challenge listeners to think about places they could go on, like a tiny little grave leave. Create space for grief at work. That might look like intentionally putting up a picture of your loved one in your workspace on purpose. Put one up and so that your colleagues might ask you about them so that you see their photo. And when you are feeling overwhelmed in a particular moment by your grief, but you didn't see it coming in a very inconvenient time, like during a meeting, you can look at their picture. You can give yourself a minute to think about them. If you're shedding a couple tears, it's okay. And then keep going with your day. You are very intentionally making space for grief in your workday. Maybe that looks like taking some notes in your notes app or a journal. When your grief feels overwhelming any given moment, instead of pretending like it's not happening, trying to shut it out for the whole workday, and then you feel 10 times overwhelmed later, like, space.

A (27:55)

And that comes out sometimes, right? So if we're talking about being productive at work or getting our things done, if you are, like, letting your bad head space take over, then what are you doing? Likely you're not being as productive at work. You're snapping at your colleagues. You know what I mean? Like, there is this whole other way where, like, it's just what you say makes great sense and I love the idea. Right? Like, we. How often do people have pictures of people in their office? Right? So have a very intentional picture. And I love that we've talked about this before, and I know I talk about this all the time. Like, society also, like, wants to not talk about the people we've lost when we have lost people. Right? Like, I'm sure, like, you love to talk about your dad and share A memory with him or, you know, I liked, I loved even like, you know, when Diane Keaton passed away. And you kind of that, like whole reference to like your mom and that whole piece I thought was so beautiful. Right? Because at our core, what do we want to do? We want to connect, continue connecting with our people.

B (28:59)

And I just, oh, my God, 100% also thank you for saying that about the Diane Keaton. It's so funny. I assume you feel this way too. Like, my grief still surprises me. I'm saying still, you know, like, I guess it makes sense that my grief surprises me because my dad died five years ago, but my mom died literally again, looking at the year 23 years ago. And my grief for her surprises me all the time. And when Diane Keaton died, I sat there being like, oh my God, I'm sure, like, I didn't know my mom as an adult. I didn't really know her as much of a person because I was so young when she died. But I imagine she would be devastated that Diane Keaton died. And this is something we would talk about. And so I shared that on the Internet. I shared my reflections because I wondered, like, can anyone relate to what I'm feeling? Like this weird surprise grief, right? That kind of popped up. And it was about my mom and not my dad in that moment, though, of course, I always talk about my dad. And so he, he comes in, he comes in. We're so close. He comes, he appears in the story.

A (30:13)

But surprise grief, I mean, that is its own thing, right? And I think that what's what to me, and you know, you referenced 23 years. I'm going on 15 years with no Jake. And the surprise grief, I think, for lack of a better word, is the biggest surprise of grief, right? Like, it just, it's self explanatory. But like, you never know when those moments are coming. And I've had a few that just have taken the wind right out of me and I did not see it coming. And I just think that these moments, right, like you want us, you want to be seen, and you want your person to be seen no matter how much time has passed. And I just love that there is this opportunity now where we can air these conversations where, you know, you can, you can do your posts and your stories and I can do mine on, in on social media and people are either gonna pass by because it doesn't, or they're gonna stop and be like, hey, me too. I get that. Like, I'm here for that. So I love that. I I went on the diet and Keaton path, so I've lost my way. But I just think that that stuff is so magical and I love the intention of which that's. It's back to making like this space for our feelings, for our thoughts.

B (31:27)

Uh huh. You made me think about the surprise grief when it shows up at work as like, the place where we especially feel like, oh, no, I can't possibly acknowledge it, but like, your surprise grief is absolutely going to show up at work. It does, right? Like in any given day, our grief is gonna pop up at random moments. Hopefully it feels less intense, maybe, or it feels different than it did in the earliest days of grief. But I feel very lucky that my work and my grief align in such a way that I can not only, like, give myself the space to grieve in the middle of my workday about Diane Keaton and my mom, but I can also then write about it, kind of for work, like it all. Yeah. I have built a life where it's really interconnected and I know that is not the average person's experience.

A (32:21)

Right. So I want to jump like this. I was going to bring this up later, but I think this is the perfect segue because I've been thinking about this for myself a lot and it's come up in several conversations this season. And it's kind of what it's. In some ways it's so positive. Right? Like when we are so open with our grief. And the example you just said, like, you had this moment at work, but your work is so connected to grief that you can do an Instagram about it, you can write about it, you can put it all out there, but there becomes this line and I feel it, I feel it a little bit this week because this is the third episode of the week that I've recorded. So as much as I love these conversations, sometimes they wake up.

B (32:59)

That's a lot, Heather. It's a lot. That's so much in one week.

A (33:02)

Because it's like the prep and then it's like, you know, inadvertently, like, I'm thinking of this with Jake or I'm thinking about Ethan with no brother. You know, he's gonna turn 21 in January and his brother's not here and why that even is a thing, but it's a thing, you know, so all of these emotions. And I try to think about how people, how I. How you, like, how do we balance when so much of what we're doing is of service. Right? Of service in this grief world. How do we Carve out our own times. Like, when is that time when it's just like, I'm not grieving publicly. I want to be grieving super privately. And I sometimes have a hard time with it because sometimes my. I'm so in my head and I'm kind of like, I'm like, I want to push it down because I've just. I've just spent six hours this week talking about it, and now I don't want to talk about it anymore. I don't want to think about it, but I know I need to.

B (33:53)

How do you, like, work through that? Oh, my God. Okay, two. Two thoughts. I'm coming back to what I do for myself in one second. I think this is so key to think about for anyone in a helping profession. Doctors, nurses, educators, any kind of a first responder, therapists, anyone who sees sadness regularly. For those folks, I feel like for those of us in helping professions, sometimes we do not give ourselves any leeway to make room for our own grief, that we're like, so focused on other people's grief. So I just want to say, like, even if you're listening to this and you're like, I don't talk about my own grief for a living. So, like, I can't necessarily relate. Like, I want to encourage anyone who is in a helping profession to also think about this too. Like, what does balance look like for you? What does it look like for you to sit in sadness all the time in your 9 to 5 or your. Whatever your hours are? And then how do you balance that out for yourself? How do you make space for grief, maybe that you feel from work that things are upsetting to you and you, instead of shutting them down, how do you take Gravely for yourself as a helper? And how do you kind of swing the pendulum back over and get respite from that heaviness all the time? So I just want to shout out to all the helpers out there who are like, no, I don't. I totally don't grieve. No, I got this. Here's how I do it for myself. My therapist encourages me to read and watch happier things in my downtime, which is very important to me. Reality TV Love is Blind, which also often has like, pop up grief. Reality TV loves grief.

A (35:53)

It sneaks it right in. Oh my God, you don't see it coming.

B (35:55)

They're like, oh, by the way, my parents are dead. And I'm like, I'm weeping. I'm like, I can't tell how many.

A (36:02)

Books I read that I Think are going to be like. Like brain candy. And then all of a sudden, like, out of nowhere, we're deep into grief.

B (36:12)

We're deep into dead kid.

A (36:13)

Yeah.

B (36:13)

Dead parent. The dead kid.

A (36:15)

Everywhere.

B (36:18)

All the time. Dancing with the Stars. My escape show. Okay. Robert Irwin. Dead. Dead dad. Like, hit us. You can't. It's. There's no escaping grief. It's okay.

A (36:31)

But.

B (36:31)

But my therapist, she encourages me to read happier things on purpose. Shopping is a big respite for me, if I'm being totally honest with you. Like, I don't see any problem with an escape that helps you free your mind and helps you, like, swing back to the other side of the pendulum. We cannot stay in the heaviness of all the time. However, what I will say is, I love talking to people about their losses. And so at parties, I am always approached by people who want to talk about heavy stuff. At the fun party I had last night, one person was like, you're. You're not related to Susan Finegloss, are you? Older gentleman. And of course, he knew my mom from Duke Medical center library when he was a physician and he was studying there. And grief pops up. People want to share their grief stories with me. You know, they know what my work is. And so even in these fun spaces, I am ready to hear other people's stories. What I have learned is to set a boundary for me and to hold those moments briefly and to say, it was so wonderful meeting you. Thank you so much. Like, thank you so much for sharing that story about my mom. That is wonderful. I am honored. I'm gonna go walk around a little bit and not get stuck in the heaviness and in that moment, because I know that this event is respite for me. Like, this is a. This is not me talking about my grief all day, every day, in this exact moment in time.

A (38:18)

So that was so helpful for me personally, because I can tell you one of the things that I've been, like, stewing in my head this week is, is how am I. Like, I am that person for so many people right now. Right. Like, particularly around child loss. And in many ways, I. It's not that I enjoy it. Like, I'm happy, though, that I can help, right? Like, when. When someone in our community, or not even our community, someone in the world has. Has lost a child, their friends reach out to me, whether they know me or not. And I will say, like, last month, I was on vacation with friends. We were in Portugal. It was the time of my life. Like, I was so I actually been working on this piece that I'm writing about, like, going back to, like, the heather before. Right. Like, before my life was always like, you know, I always can't wait to read it. Hopefully it needs a lot of work still. But, you know, it's this whole piece of, like, I always talk about, like, you can have extreme happiness, right? Like, you can live with this heavy grief, but they're kind of side by side. Like, you know, it's just totally. You know, my grief is never gone. I just. I can still be happy, but without it. But I was thinking about. I had these glimpses of myself when I was in Portugal. That was like, the heather before, the lighter heather. The just, like, could have been. Because I was pleasantly pickled for, like, two weeks. Like, I was like, we were drinking.

B (39:32)

Wine all day and beer all day. So pleasantly pickled is the best thing I've ever. I need to, like, write that down. I need to test it. Yeah. Like, I. I am a bit of a.

A (39:45)

Very steady state of just, like, good. But in the middle of it, like, our dear friends, who I love dearly, but they were all of a sudden, you know, we've been drinking all day. We're, like, at our Airbnb, we're, like, hanging out, and they're like, so. So a friend of ours lost a child. You know, what should I tell them? Can I give them your number? Like, And I just. It smacked me in the face. And I was like, of course you can. Like, that is one of the things that I do. Like, that I, of course, like, please share them with me. Like, if it's easier for me to reach out, I will. But it sucked a little bit of the joy out of it. And it's still, like, I linger with it now, like, and I don't have a great way of answering it and putting to bed because I. Like, we just kept in that space and then they shared the story and all the details and then how they felt. Yeah. And I. It happens, right?

B (40:35)

Yeah. It's what. What you're describing is making me specifically think about last night and how I was really feeling down when I came back from the party. I just, like, felt like crying, and I. And I did. And I was sitting with my wonderful partner, my wonderful boyfriend. He's the best. And I was like, why? I couldn't place what the heaviness was. And after, like, sitting with it and, like, talking through, like, why do I feel this way? What is. What is weighing on me? Let me think through the night. And it Was that comment from that wonderful guy about my mom. He also knew my dad, too. And I just got deep into my feelings about that of man. That man was really old. That's probably one of, like, these stories about my parents that randomly come up because I live in my hometown and everyone knew my parents. Those stories are gonna stop. That surprise, grief, those little moments. That's gonna stop. And I just wept. I wept because I. I also. Of course, I. I miss my parents. And I wish they could have been there last night to see me speaking at this event and hosting. And that was what was weighing on me. I had shut it out a little bit so I could have respite so I could enjoy the evening. And then it hit. And I think I say all of that to say that my life now, like, you were talking about the Heather.

A (42:10)

Before.

B (42:13)

The Rebecca or Becky, depending on how I'm feeling. The. The Rebecca before my dad's death, the Rebecca before my divorce, was constantly hiding the. Or didn't even understand or confront the grief that I had had for my mom almost my entire life. And so the Rebecca before was kind of full of crap and was putting on a performance often because I was so afraid of these really heavy feelings that I just refused to recognize were there. And so now I love the person that I am now because I can have. I feel like I have so much more fun at parties now. I feel like I enjoy joy. I feel joy so much more authentically now because I am also comfortable with the idea of, like, you know, I also might cry. I also can't get reminded of my grief. And it is okay. And that helps me feel. I feel like the best version of myself that I've ever felt. And it is because my joy and my grief sit side by side together. And that is. I don't beat myself up for that. You know, I love that.

A (43:26)

And I. You know, it's so funny because I think I spend a lot of time in that space, but every once in a while, I just. And I'm sure that I make this. I romanticize this, right? Like this. Like this version of, you know, this version of Heather that people don't know their child died, that they don't. You know what I mean? Like, and it's funny because I'm so public about it, and I've always have been, like, you know, Jake died, and we started Jake's hell from heaven because I just wanted to keep his memory alive and do all these things. And I've also said, like, similar to what you just Said, like, I love who I have become through this loss. Like, I just think I'm like.

B (44:08)

Like, I just. You're pretty great.

A (44:10)

Thank you. No, but, like, I'm a happy. Like, for someone who, you know, like, I like what. I like what I'm doing. I'm like, I'm here for it. But there's funny. Like, I can. There was this one picture, and we were on this, like, rooftop bar in Lisbon, and we were into the vino verde, like, pretty strong.

B (44:26)

And I, like, pleasantly pickled.

A (44:28)

I was. I was very pleasantly pickled. But we are. There's this place that, like, they took of the group, and then, like, our other friend, like, zoomed in on it, and he was like, oh, my God, you look like 20 years younger and I've never seen you so happy. I was like, who is that? That's who I want to be. But that's where this whole thing kind of came, because I was like, it was just that moment. Right? And in that moment, I was not Jake's cell from heaven. I was not hosting a grief podcast. I was not the mom of a dead child. I was just a chick on vacation with her friends. You're just Heather. And it just.

B (45:04)

But listen.

A (45:05)

But I feel like you're.

B (45:07)

But your grief never actually goes away. It's just that you.

A (45:11)

This is like, therapy now. This has become therapy. But listen.

B (45:14)

No, listen. This is like, grief is a part of you, Heather, but it is not your whole story. It is not like, you are not just Jake's mom. You are not just Heather the grief podcast host Heather the grief friend. That is not just who you are, is a really awesome part of who you are. And you make a big difference for people with that part of you. And you are fun, Heather on vacation. Like, it's all just you.

A (45:44)

Yeah, no, I know. Yep.

B (45:46)

But I. But I feel like we have built up this mindset that we are either grieving or we're not. That it is like, a black and white view of, like, grieving or fine, sad or happy. But that's not how humanity works. I am always Susan and Mark finegloss's daughter. They are always going to be dead. And I. I love that I am their daughter. That is the top line of my bio on Instagram is Susan and Mark's daughter.

A (46:20)

Great.

B (46:21)

And that is like. That is sprinkled into my life. It is not my entire life. I can hold it all. So can you, right?

A (46:31)

Yep. And it's.

B (46:32)

It is not that I am not an adult orphan in this moment. I hate that language. I just find it like, it's annoying to me. But like, I also still am. Like, I'm not. Not that you know for sure. Times, different parts are the, the cheese on the cheese, the primary or the.

A (46:49)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, like showing through. I, I love this conversation because I do think this also applies, you know, to so many of us. Right? Like, so many of us, especially as we like age. It's like you, you become defined by all of these things. Whether it's your career, whether it's your grief, whether it's being a parent, being a spouse, being like whatever, you know, and it's, it's all these. I mean, you're right. Like it's all of. We're, we're all of it all of the time. And it's just at different times. What, what is more forward facing, I guess.

B (47:20)

Totally. I hear this from my, my friends who are lucky enough to be parents. I, I am not one of them. I hear this from my mom friends all the time who are like, I am a mom now. That is, is that my primary identity now. Like, I just. No, it dominates.

A (47:37)

It's a thing.

B (47:37)

Yeah.

A (47:37)

Like it, it can be a, a part that takes over and you're always kind of fighting for like who you are. But I think you're right. We're all of it all the time. And it's all of it. We're all of it. I want to make sure we hit on this and we definitely talked about this last time, but I have been obsessed with these, these events that you do. Right? Like, so, so the sad hours, like the meet and grieves, I just, I have not been able to put them aside in my brain. I like to come, I would like to come to one. I would like to co host one with you. Like, talk the audience through a sad hour. Like, I just, I love the name. I love the idea. I love all of it. Okay.

B (48:16)

This is rooted in the fact that I, as a 30 year old with two dead parents, and then as a 31 year old with two dead parents and a divorce under my belt, I was like, you know, I don't really want to go to a grief support group. I don't want to go sit in a circle in a church basement, in a hospice room. I don't, like, I don't want that. I just want to chill. Like, I just want to hang out with people who get it. Also, I don't only want to talk about my dead parents. I don't want to only talk about my Grief. I want to like talk about nail polish and Taylor Swift or like whatever, like non griefy things though Taylor Swift is pretty griefy. Whatever non griefy things are on my mind that day. I just want to be normal. And it's totally coming back to this exact point that we were making that like I am, you know, in my 30s and a griever. I was looking for just chill, casual spaces where I could do that. And I realized that such a thing did not exist, particularly in the south where most grief support is religious. Frankly. That was not what I. It's not the point, not the vibe at all. And I had a feeling that I was not the only person that felt that way. We started hosting events through, through Griev Leave, you know, years ago when I started. But we started calling them sad hours last year because I literally texted people one day, oh my God. It was just, you know, another week in America where everything felt incredibly heavy. And it was a Friday night and I was like, hey besties, I'm just feeling really sad. Will you come be sad with me? At this one particular bar that I love? And people showed up. We had like 15 people hanging out for our very first impromptu sad hour.

A (50:17)

Sad hour.

B (50:18)

And the idea took off from there. We have hosted sad hours all over and the whole concept is just gather people together who want to come to a sad hour because they are self selecting that they're grieving in some capacity and they want to just come chill. And like that is magic. What happens when people get to a sad hour is they're like, so what are you sad about? Like why are you here? And they talk about it immediately. There is no like formal programming necessarily. It is just that kind of authentic connection.

A (50:57)

I was just gonna say that it's so authentic. Like it is not because, you know, you reference this and whether it's religious based or you're in the basement of a hospital or you're like I kind of referenced. I went to that like hospice thing. Those are so like to me and I get that they are valuable to some people. So I'm not like saying, you know, everything can exist, but I would go to those and Brian and I would walk out and we'd be like so much worse than we walked in because we didn't. For us it was not healing to be in that very negative space and just one up each other with our grief and. But if you want to. But that doesn't mean you don't want to talk about your grief or you know, like, hey, what Is that about, like, yeah, I want. Hey, I'm sad. You know, I miss my son Jake. He's been gone X amount of years. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't have to be anything. And I also love that sometimes you just want to be in a space and you sort of reference this. Like, just because you're surrounded by other grievers or people for. There for the same common purpose, you don't necessarily want to talk about it. Maybe you want to be like, oh, my God, have you listened to the new album? What do you think?

B (52:03)

But just the comfort of knowing that the space exists, just the comfort of knowing that everyone around you right now is there for a reason, makes you feel less alone. Whether you outwardly talk about your grief or not, you're like, oh, right. There are other people who want to come to a sad hour because they're grieving something. We don't even need to talk about it. I feel better just having been here.

A (52:23)

One of another guests this season, Jordan Sandler, she hosts, like, the Dead Parent Club. And our conversation was very similar to that. It's like the first Wednesday of the month. It is completely online. It is audio only. So, like, she's like, some people interesting. You know, it's just this venue for people to pop on. And it's not. You know, some people have been coming every week for years. Some people are in and out. She's like, some people have literally never missed, but I have no idea what they look like. They're just like a little icon on. On the thing. And she's like, but it's just, we come together. People say what they want to say. Sometimes people have a lot to say. Sometimes people just listen. Sometimes people have listened for years and then they are moved to speak. And it's just such a. I. I think there's so many different ways that we allow ourselves and each other to grieve now. And I just think it's so beautiful, really, to me, like, it's beautiful to have these events that even though people are coming together for sadness, they're supporting each other.

B (53:28)

And, you know, it's pretty funny, too. There's a lot of laughter. Yeah.

A (53:32)

I was just gonna say it's like hard conversations that make you laugh. Right? Like, it's just stuff that.

B (53:36)

Oh, my God, totally.

A (53:37)

They go hand in hand. I love it. I absolutely love it.

B (53:40)

So you will have to come and we'll. And. Or we'll host one.

A (53:43)

I would. I think that'd be really fun, too.

B (53:45)

I'm not gonna lie.

A (53:47)

So what, what are the next steps for grieve Leave? Like, where do you see things going? Where are you, what are your projects? You referenced a book. I think that sounds amazing. Mm.

B (53:56)

God. I've been working on a book for a while and now it is finally getting to a place where I feel like it could be ready for the world to see. That's memoir side of things. So that's kind of telling more about my story, particularly from the intersections of my marriage and the grief that I felt for the deaths of my parents and what led to my divorce. But grief leave continues to grow. So we. I'll tell you this, we're working on revamping our website right now because, I mean, we've just outgrown our website. It needs a revamp. There's not a sad hours page, so there will be a sad hours page, that kind of thing, because we will continue to host those. I continue to work with amazing workplaces across the world, globally, from banks to small companies to nonprofits, you name it, on training them to create more grief informed workplaces. That work is deeply meaningful to me because de facto our workplaces are the front lines of grief support in America. And the more that we can do to train colleagues, to train managers on how to support someone going through a loss, I think the fewer people quit their jobs, the fewer people feel so overwhelmed by their grief that they feel like they can't function so greebly. Will continue to. To do those kinds of trainings. I'm giving some big talks that I'm really excited about. We are. I'm speaking at End well, which is a big conference out of LA that I highly recommend you live stream. If you can't make it out to LA, go look them up. You will love them. Heather endwell.org they're amazing.

A (55:47)

Okay.

B (55:49)

And we're speaking at south by Southwest in Austin.

A (55:53)

Amazing. That is awesome. In March.

B (55:55)

Yeah, it's going to be great. And then, you know, my podcast is in its second season now that is out. We have a new episode coming out every week and I love this season. We just had an episode that came out that I was thinking about you about because it is about the intersections of grief and AI. And I know that we had talked in our last episode about folks should go listen to it if they haven't.

A (56:21)

Absolutely.

B (56:22)

Just like the funkiness there. And so whole episode about these intersections, like ethical challenges.

A (56:28)

Thank you so much for being on this show again. I love this conversation and what I think is so, so powerful about what we just did over this last hour is when people listen. We have. You have given these takeaways, these, like, nuggets that people can take with them to process their grief, to live with their grief, to find joy in their grief. Like, I think this is. This is how we live as grievers. And I think that these examples and takeaways are so powerful. So thank you for all that you do on this front and thank you for sharing it with my audience.

B (57:04)

Oh, Heather, thank you. I am obsessed with you. I think you're amazing. I so happily said yes to coming back because I just want to talk to you all the time. So thank you, Heather. I appreciate you.

A (57:17)

All right, and to here's a Sad hour in 2026, co hosted Cheers.

B (57:21)

It's happening.

A (57:22)

Perfect. Love it. Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it to see you next time on A Place of Yes.