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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Heather Straughter and this is a place of. Yes. In each episode we have honest conversations about grief. The messy parts, the unexpected moments, and the ways we begin to heal through heartfelt stories and expert advice. My hope is to offer you comfort, connection and a reminder that you don't have to navigate this alone. Today I'm joined by Kate Walsh, camp director at Double H Ranch, a place that has shaped her life for as long as she can remember. Her connection to the camp started as a child, continued through her work there, and is deeply tied to her father who volunteered as a doctor and helped build the community that still exists today. In this conversation, Kate shares the story of her dad's cancer diagnosis, the time they had together after, and what it looked like to live fully while knowing loss was coming. We talk about the balance of joy and grief, how families show up for each other in the hardest moments, and what it means to carry someone forward after they're gone. It's honest, reflective and filled with the kind of perspective that stays with you long after the conversation ends. So today I'm really excited to chat with Kate Walsh. She is the camp director at Double H Ranch, which is such a special place. And for those who don't know, Double H Ranch is in Lake Lazar, N.Y. it was CO founded by Charles Wood and Paul Newman and I don't know how else to describe it, but just completely magical place. Like it is just this place, place that has specialized programming year round support for children and their families living with chronic and serious illness. And it's not just. You know, sometimes when you say like support, I think people think of like, oh, it's just therapy sessions or it's just this, right? This is full blown camp. It is adaptive skiing. It is basically, you know, there's kids with wheelchairs and tubes, like zip lining. Like it is truly, truly magical. So I am so excited that we've connected. We've known each other, I think, through Double H. I love that you listen to this show. And Kate, welcome to the show. I'm glad to have you here.
- [02:04]
B
Thank you so much, Heather. I'm really excited to be here today.
- [02:07]
A
I am excited to talk about a lot of things with you. One of, I think your story really showcases a lot of what we end up talking about on this show. It is how grief caregiving intertwines all of our life. Like how and then when you experience grief, when you have a profound loss in your life, how it just, there's like a before and after and how after you have loss, it just really changes how you see the world, which then impacts how you parent, how you work, how you live. All of it.
- [02:41]
B
Yes. Every aspect of life changes.
- [02:43]
A
All of it. Right? It's wild. So I wanted to start talking about your dad. So your dad is your kind of heart of your grief story, and I would love if you could just share about him, who he was and his story.
- [02:59]
B
Yeah. Thank you so much again. I'm so excited to be chatting with you about this. I've loved listening to this podcast and it's just brought such comfort. And I love sharing about my dad, so that's also so special. But, yeah, so my dad was. He was diagnosed with cancer in the summer of 2021, after my wife and I got married. So we got married in June, and in August, we found out that he had cancer, metastatic kidney cancer. So pretty. Pretty severe, you know, stage four at that point. And, you know, to say that we were all shocked was an understatement. You know, we were. He had some hip pain, went to his doctor, and it turned out to be this horrible diagnosis. So I have two younger sisters, and we all just kind of came together. I remember, you know, you remember those exact moments, those. Those moments that stand out, too. I was actually at Double H. It was the end of the summer, you know, starting to wind down, and, you know, I get that phone call from my mom, and I'm just, like, floored. And I just have to, you know, I just have to leave. And I tell my co workers, I'm like, listen, I don't know what's happening, but I need to go see my dad. You know, at the same time, my mom was helping my sister who had just had a baby. And, like, it was. It was just this moment of. Of such excitement because my sister had this beautiful baby. And then on the other hand, this moment of, where is our family going to look like? Like, how are we going to survive this? And so, yeah, my dad was, you know, the reason for a lot of what I do in my life. Like, he's the reason why I work at Double H. He's, you know, the reason why my sister went into nursing and my other sister lived in, you know, Brooklyn for after college. Like, he is so intertwined in all the decisions that we've made in our lives. And he started out at Double H as a volunteer doctor. He worked in the picu. And so when camp first opened that next year, our former CEO Max Serenda, came down to Albany Med and said, we need doctors to volunteer. And he was like, sign me up. I love this. Loves kids. Got to see kids in a space where they were thriving versus the picu, where, you know, it's not always the best situation. And so for him, camp became such a place of respite because he saw kids that he saw in the unit who were now on the ropes course and now swimming and fishing. And so we came as, as kids with my dad. And so when I was in fourth and fifth grade, I came as a camper and got to experience what that feels like. And, you know, then when I was, like, 16 or 17, I joke, my. My dad was like, well, you gotta get a summer job, and so you should just work at camp. There's no other, like, choice in that matter. And I was like, o, hope I get the job, you know, so, yeah, so that's how I kind of started in my journey at double H, and then, you know, eventually just decided, this is what I want to make my career, and so was able to do that. And my dad has been that guiding force through all of this.
- [05:56]
A
There's so much you talked about there that I think is so important and so. So resonates with our audience. Right. And I want to go back to sort of when you talked about first finding out his diagnosis. And, you know, you said you had gotten married in June. Yep. Your sister had a baby, and then this happens. And it's one of those things, and I don't. I find myself, like, you know, I'm so 15 years into this grief journey, but I still find that there are just these moments that I almost fixate on. And right now, I have a few that I'm, like, fixated on. And one is just that even, like, grief doesn't care. Like, it will show up at any point. And you're never even. Even in the moments when you think you're prepared for something you're not. So here you are, like, happiest moments, right. Like, you talk about this beautiful baby. You talk about your marriage. Like, I mean, such a happy moment. And then it's like grief comes and, like, punches you in the gut.
- [06:52]
B
Yes. And I think that that was so. It's like grief and joy go hand in hand. Right. Like, there's that feeling of, like, I'm so sad about this, but there's also this joy in remembering this person and being able to have someone you're feeling sad about. But, yeah, life was like, you know, I. I never want to say perfect, but life felt so happy and so joyful. And, you know, we're coming out of COVID and everyone can kind of be together. And we all, like, made it, you know, And I think, you know, our wedding, we joked, was, like, just the first time all of us were able to be together, and it was only 40 of us. Like, it was, you know, very small, and. And. But we had so much fun. And I think throughout my dad being sick, all of us reflected back on, like, thank God this happened after the wedding. Like, thank God we were able to celebrate without that sadness and that unknowing of what the future was to come, because that would have changed the whole moment for us. So, like, I'm so grateful to have those joyful moments to help that helped us get through the really tough ones.
- [07:57]
A
I was just thinking that. And I'm glad that you said that, because I was thinking about, you know, sometimes the timing is otherwise, and there certainly. And we'll talk about, like, you have a son now who has or will not meet your dad, you know, and those kind of moments that just suck, for lack of a better word.
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B
Yes.
- [08:12]
A
But the fact that you have such a happy moment so close in time to it. Like, I just always. I don't know. Even with Jake, sometimes I think about. And sometimes I think maybe, do I romanticize life before he got sick or life before he died? You know, I think some of that is also natural, but it is those reminders of the life you had with him present, and it's so nice to be able to intertwine those memories.
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B
Yes.
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A
Because I think it gives you something tangible to hold onto when you're so desperately missing them.
- [08:44]
B
Exactly. And I think, you know, we. We joked a lot because, you know, my sister literally had her baby the week my dad got. We all found out. Yes. Okay. So my mom went to. They were in Cape Cod. Like, my mom went down there to. To help her. And, you know, we didn't tell my sister at first because, okay, that would have been a lot to just, like, be. To process having this newborn baby. And there, you know, he was having a few moments where he had to go back to the doctor. The baby did. And so she ended up naming her son Ray. And my dad's name was Ray. And I joked with my dad because I was like, dad, Lizzie doesn't even know you have cancer. And she named her baby Ray. Like, that's an honor. You can't even. You can't even say, like, oh, she just, you know, is doing this because
- [09:30]
A
I got sick or. Yeah, Yeah.
- [09:31]
B
I was like, she doesn't know. So, like, take comfort in that, too. So it's like these little moments of joy that we can reflect back on and almost.
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A
Pretty awesome, actually. Yeah, that's pretty cool.
- [09:42]
B
It was really cool because I was like, you know, I knew someone would probably name their child Ray. We just hadn't really ever talked about it. So it was a nice. It was a nice uplifting moment for all of us in that space.
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A
And it's so nice that it was. Not that it wouldn't have been genuine if she knew, but there's like, a different degree of, like.
- [10:01]
B
Yeah.
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A
Honor. I don't even know what that word. Yeah, that's so cool.
- [10:04]
B
No, I think that was really special for him, too. Like, he was obviously feeling very miserable and sad that this was happening. So it was, for him a moment of like, oh, this is really cool how.
- [10:18]
A
And I think you had said. And I might be wrong with this, but that the whole progression was pretty quick. It was okay.
- [10:24]
B
Yeah. So he got diagnosed. Yeah. And then was. Had passed. Diagnosed in 2021, passed in 2023.
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A
Okay.
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B
And like, quickly passed, like, once it.
- [10:37]
A
Once it turned.
- [10:38]
B
Yes.
- [10:39]
A
Yeah. How did you. And this is kind of a loaded question. I don't even know. I don't even know what kind of answer I'm looking for. But I think about these things, right. Like. Cause you live differently with people once you know that they're ill. Like, I think about Jake, and people, I think, assumed that he. That we were ready for his death in some way because he had so many health issues and stuff. And first of all, we never really. We did not expect him to die. Like, actually at the point of his death, we were trying to think about, like, okay, he's getting heavy. Are we going to need to put, like. Like, what kind of modifications are we going to.
- [11:12]
B
What's the next step? Yeah.
- [11:14]
A
What is our car situation gonna look like? Because he's getting bigger. Like, we certainly were not thinking death, but I do think people assume that the diagnosis or whatever can prepare you for it.
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B
Oh, yeah.
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A
And I don't actually personally think that's true because I kind of think, like, even if you think you're ready, you're not ready.
- [11:35]
B
No.
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A
And so I'm curious, like, what was that time with him like, like, from diagnosis to passing, were you, like, living on eggshells or were you just like. Like, what was that like?
- [11:45]
B
Yeah, I think it was a little bit of both. I think that we were all, you know, you have that anticipatory grief, which now there's like that name for it of, like, this is grief that that is there and bubbling under the surface because, you know, something might happen. So I think we all had that. I think we all also, in our heart of hearts, knew at some point this would be what would. Like, what would make my dad pass. This cancer was going to be like, maintenance, not cure, but you don't know. A timeline. You don't know. You focus on living and you focus on, like, okay, let's start that. That clinical trial. Let's, you know, I'll drive you to Sloan every month if you need to. I think all of us shifted into how can we spend as much time together as possible, no matter what the outcome looks like in the end? Because it just, it. It makes you click into this reality that, like, life does end and, like, who do you want to spend your time with and how do you want to spend your time? And, you know, we kind of joked. We like, celebrated everything. Like, we celebrated everything. Like, my dad did six months of radiation. And at that six month mark, we celebrated like everything was a party, everything. We're buying decorations. Like, it was just this. Just to kind of a. Because there's kids and they love parties, and that's how you keep toddlers entertained. But also, like, it brought joy to us to have those. Those things that felt special, right. Holidays that maybe we didn't make a big deal about were like, big events.
- [13:17]
A
There's something in our lives every day worth celebrating, right? And I think we get into the rat race or we just always say, oh, I'll do it tomorrow. I'll do it tomorrow. And things like this make you stop and recognize that there's not always a tomorrow. So you gotta.
- [13:31]
B
Yeah, yeah. It was so important to us. And, you know, I think in, you know, when you first start hitting these milestones of holidays or days that are important, birthdays, you do have that thought in the back of your head, like, is this the last? And then you have to say, well, if it is, like, let's make it something worthwhile. You know, whether that's just us all being together or that's putting up some streamers and blowing up balloons and having a party. And I think, you know, it was important for us to do that and to find that joy because my dad was also in a lot of pain and we weren't used to seeing him like this. You know, he had bone cancer. And it's. It's very painful and a pain. I don't think any of us would know how to experience until we're in that space. And, you know, he tried so hard to, like, pull it together for us, but, you know, it's. It's uncomfortable. He couldn't move the way he wanted to move, and oftentimes was sitting and watching everything go on about around him. So we wanted to make sure that what he was watching was. Was purposeful and joyful.
- [14:32]
A
Yeah, I am. You had said that. You said that he showed up, like, I think you used the word, like, brave or courageous.
- [14:38]
B
Yeah.
- [14:39]
A
Like, you know, every day. And in the back of your mind, you always knew how much pain he was in. Yeah. And, you know, you kind of answer that. You try to make sure every moment is joyful, but how do you. Like, there's gotta be this juxtaposition, too, of, like. And I don't want to. It's hard to say this, but sometimes I feel like I would get into this sometimes where it's almost like, forced fun. Like, right. Like, hey, guys, let's do this. You know, like. And you're kind of like. Sometimes I even make myself, like, I roll my eyes at myself because I'm like, okay, settle down. But sometimes it's that whole fake it till you make it, and then it kind of works. But, you know, you put such value sometimes on, like. Like you said, like, sometimes there's the sadness of, like, oh, this could be the last one. But then there's. Well, if it is the last one, then it has to be the best one. So you put this weight on it, and it's so hard. It's so hard to just live during that.
- [15:28]
B
It is. And I think I. I tried to. I think we all tried to let his mood dictate what we showed up, how we showed up for him. You know, like with my niece and nephews, like, obviously there was joy, but in car rides, driving him to doctor's appointments, like, letting him feel how he needed to feel. And I think I entered this first as being like, oh, this is going to be great. And, you know, like, let's think about all the happy and then realizing that didn't work for him in that moment. Like, he needed to feel sad and he needed to be vulnerable. And, you know, giving him that space to do that and letting him have that grief for what was going on in his life. And that's really hard, too, as a kid, you know, you want your parents to be happy and you want them to, like, not feel. You want everyone to feel that way. But, like, it's just a different. It's a shift in roles and it's a shift in, you know, he was my caregiver and now I'm caregiving for him. And not just like, physically, but, like, emotionally.
- [16:26]
A
And that is such a difficult transition, I think, like, whether it's illness related, whether it's age related, like, you know, there's sort of that natural progression in, you know, I've talked about it with my husband quite a bit, like, how it goes from, you know, your parent, parents, you. And then you never really parent your parent, but you have to then take that role. Right. Like, it's this full circle moment and we've talked about it a lot about just that shift and you're not always ready for it. Like, you're not always though, or. I know. Like, I'm not. He wasn't. Like, sometimes you just. You want to fall back to the. To what you've known most of your life, which is just a really comfortable.
- [17:02]
B
Exactly.
- [17:03]
A
You know, it's like, my parents take care of me. Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So it's this, like, weird shift. I like what you said though, about, like, knowing those moments and being able to, even when it's so hard or feels uncomfortable to like, shift and let. Let him dictate, you know. And yes, you want to create as much joy as you can, but you also, you know, have to allow them to feel sad and mad. And I'm sure, like, there had to be such hardness for him to be watching his family that he loves so much surround him, but also know he's the reason that you're surround. Like, you know, there's that, like, it's not just a. Like, hey, it's my birthday. Let's get together. It's like.
- [17:40]
B
Right.
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A
Like, there's this feeling to that.
- [17:43]
B
And yeah, there's probably a little like, guilt of like, oh, like. And I don't know if guilt's the right word, but, like, would they be doing this if I wasn't sick? Like, are we just doing this because I'm sick? You know, and I think that's how it started, but then it turned into like, this is a really nice time for all of us to be together. Yeah.
- [18:02]
A
And each time you get to do it is like, bonus time. Right. Because I think sometimes when you're worried, it's like, you're like, hey, we're still here. So it's. You had almost what, like a year and a half or.
- [18:11]
B
Yeah.
- [18:12]
A
However, that amount of time is. And it's like, I love that you
- [18:15]
B
more time than we thought, too.
- [18:16]
A
Yeah. That's what I was gonna say. Like, you were able to, like, appreciate it. And really, I'm sure now look back and find comfort in all of those.
- [18:22]
B
Oh, it's. It's. Yeah, these just beautiful moments.
- [18:25]
A
So you had shared, I think, in our survey or the last time we had talked about how he had passed peacefully at home and he was surrounded by everybody. And I wanna just briefly touch on that because there's something to me that I just think is so beautiful when that can happen. Right. Like, when that transition can be peaceful and when it can be a moment of. And I've described it as beautiful. And I'm not sure that people always think that that's the right word, but I actually think it's really beautiful. Right. Like, I can't think of anything better, you know, after a long, healthy life, like, I'm not trying to kill myself right now. You know what I mean? Like, but, like, you know, I mean, if that time comes, like, I just, you know, that we can all hope to just be surrounded by those who matter and love and, like, have it be peaceful. So the fact. There's dignity in that. Right. Like, and there's.
- [19:13]
B
Oh, it was so important for him too. Like, he got to control how he wanted this to go, you know, and as much as he was, you know. Cause he. He went to the hospital and was having a lot of pain and, you know, the docs did all the tests and couldn't figure out why this pain was happening in his. His other hip that didn't have cancer. And, you know, my mom called me and she's like, hey, I'm, you know, I'm going to the ER with your dad. If you could come down. I just like, you know, need help. And I said, of course, like, the, the beauty of where my life was at the moment was I didn't have a child. My wife and I, like, were able to be there and show up in ways that my sisters couldn't because they have toddlers and kids. And we all know how crazy that can be. And I.
- [19:56]
A
There's different responsibilities.
- [19:57]
B
Yeah, exactly. My sisters aren't going to bring the babies to the er, so. So. And it just was this moment. We're all like, where's this? Why is this happening? And why is he feeling this way? And I think my mom probably knew before any of us and even him that this was probably the start of his decline, of him starting to pass, and never said it out loud, but I think in her heart of hearts knew she's starting to be like, oh, we should get a hospital bed. And we're like, why? Why does he need that? He'll be able to go up the stairs. And she knew. She knows him, and she just knew. And, you know, from that point on, I pretty much moved back into my childhood home and stayed with them and helped them. And again, yeah, we were able to create a space for him that was peaceful. And my sisters and their partners and my wife Lacey, we just all chipped in to make a space for him that allowed him that dignity and gave him that comfort. And, you know, I'm like, you know, buying things off Amazon and diffusers and, you know, all this stuff to just, like, create this peaceful space for him. And he's not that kind of guy, so he's kind. What are you doing? But it was nice. And then he was able to see people in the way he wanted, and he's not in the hospital. And, you know, for someone who spent his whole career in the hospital, I think he was so grateful he. He didn't pass there. You know, that would have felt a little bit too much for him. And so it was beautiful. And it's. It's a moment I will never forget. I will never forget the weeks leading up to that. Every year at his anniversary, I think of, like, where I was at this point and how we were all navigating this and just giving him that dignity of passing in a way that he needed. There's so much value in these conversations and listening to other people's stories of grief, because, you know, if I could talk about my dad all day, I would. You know, I would. And he's always in my head. And, you know, I think it's just nice to be able to have those conversations and to sit in a space with people who understand. And I see that a lot at work, too. You know, I see that with these parents that come and whether or not their child has passed. To sit in a space with another parent and just be able to, like, unload how they're feeling and the. The grief they're feeling for the child they thought they'd have. And that, you know, is so. So huge. And it's something that I've been able to be a part of, but now being able to actually, like, have those conversations with people feels so supportive.
- [22:23]
A
Well, it's perfect what you just said, because I was just getting ready to transition into a little bit more about double H, and I wanted to, like, revisit some of the things you said early on about how your father was an integral part of double H. And for those who are listening, who aren't familiar, can you talk a little bit about that? Like about what it meant for doctors to volunteer and just. And he was among the first ones to do it. So, like, if you could talk a little bit about that aspect. Cause I just think that would be helpful. And then I just love that you work there now. Like, I just love this connection. It's so cool.
- [22:57]
B
Yeah, so, yeah. So, I mean, the opportunity to have physicians from Albany Medical center come to Double H is crucial. Like, we could not operate without this high level of care. Obviously we have nurses, doctors, all these people in place. But I think from a personal standpoint, the ability to step outside the hospital, to remember that the kids that they're working with are kids and not patients. I'm sure I can't speak on their behalf, but I'm sure you lose that right in any job. You start to become a little bit numb and it becomes like, okay, I'm headed to work today and you going to save a kid's life. And for us, we're like, whoa. So it allows that ability for physicians to see kids as kids again, to see families as families. It also is a great moment for a kid to see their own doctor in a space that isn't the hospital. How cool when that kid goes back to see that doctor, to talk about archery, to talk about how he caught fish or she caught fish. And so it works. So it's so crucial to that relationship and to that you see your own, even if it's not your doctor. Because not all of our kids are doctors there. But like, you see a doctor in a different light. They're dressed up for a talent show, they're running around the dining hall like it is a different experience. And so it's so cool.
- [24:16]
A
It's so cool. And it's so interesting because even in all that I know about double H and any connections I've had, and I've always thought of it in terms of how great it is to have these high level physicians there in case they're needed. I have never thought of it in the way you just described it or like given thought to that. And that's even cooler because you're right on all levels. I can't imagine for the physician, because, you know, it's gotta get heavy. Especially when you deal with chronically ill kids and even at Jake's help from heaven, which is completely different relationship. But we, you know, the population we work with, we deal with a lot of Loss. And we deal with a lot of, you know, parents know that I've lost a child, so they, they. They reach out to me and there's. And I love that. Like, I really do. I think it's a service I can provide, but it's also, for sure, an extra sadness and an extra heaviness. So physicians have that as well, you know, and for them to then be able to see, like you said, these kids do archery and to dress up and be in a talent show and to, like, lose themselves in that kind of life, it has to be so cool, all of it. So I'm grateful that you just shared that story, because I was thinking of it more in terms of the importance of them being there for the medical thing. But I think that other piece is huge. It's so cool.
- [25:36]
B
It's just such a symbiotic relationship of what people learn from each other and being in a space outside. That's not clinical.
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A
That's exactly it. That's not clinical. So it's like everybody, and I'm sure even the families who go up, seeing. Seeing people in a different light is always, you know, outside of your prescribed role or whatever, you know, in life, that's important. And then I think this makes it so cool. So you talked about your first job, really was at Double H. Yeah, I did.
- [26:06]
B
So, yeah, it's summers. I. In college, I started working at Double H as a camp counselor, and I was going to school for education post, you know, getting my master's. I taught elementary education for a few years, and the job opened up at camp, and I thought, you know, I'm not tenured. I don't know what my position at this school is going to be next year. I love camp. I'll just, like, try it out, right? I'll see if I get the job. And I remember when my. My current boss called me and said, you know, we want to offer you the role. I started crying, and she was like, oh, well, do you want the role? And I was like, I really do. I go. I also just, like, feel sad that I'm going to have to leave a class of third graders, you know, and I'm going to have to, like, transition out of saying goodbye to them. But I'm so excited, you know, and so I think, like, having that experience of having a job that is so close to. To my heart and close to my family's heart is so important. You know, my. My parents, my mom will say that Double H did more for me as a kid and taught me More than they ever could. Right. About empathy and understanding of others. And you know, I'm so lucky now to have my son up there with me and him, be able to see that and partake in that. And that's just like such a beautiful full circle. Um, but yeah, my life and my work is so intertwined. It's, it's, it's wonderful. Like I, I say all the time, I'm so grateful I have a place I can work and I can share about my dad and people know him and have stories to share alongside of him about him. But at the same time that can be a lot too. Like I'm just want to go and get my work done and like sometimes there's no escape.
- [27:41]
A
Like you're.
- [27:41]
B
Yes, yes. And you know, or it hits me in a space I'm not prepared with as grief does. Right. Like I'll be walking at parent check in day and a parent comes up to me and tells me a story about my dad, which I love. Like, I love hearing those stories. But then I have to like rebound into a, oh, I'm at work, I have to like do this next. And I can't maybe sit in this space or I have to sit in this space and I need to take some time, you know, so it's like this balance of grief showing up in places beyond just my day to day life. It's other people sharing stories. And like I said, I love that. Like I love hearing about my dad as a doctor and, and how he helped families because I didn't see that side of him. You know, he came home after work and ate dinner and played and he never kind of let us into that space with him. I think he had to separate it. Right. He's got three kids and he's taking care of very sick kids. He can't carry that with him home. So it is, it's a very dynamic grief like relationship when I am at work.
- [28:40]
A
It's such an interesting dynamic though. And like we've, I've talked to a bunch of people who have kind of referenced that and it is a little bit that, you know, so often and you've referenced this a couple times. Like you love talking about your dad. Right? And I would always say that like people, people often more in this country, I think, than other countries but like they make death and grief awkward when I don't think it has to be right. Like when it's like, you want to talk about, I want to talk about Jake, you want to talk about your dad. People want to talk about their people and not then feel like they have to make the people they're talking to feel okay about it. Like, you know, I think that can get weird. Like, I'm like, now I'm comforting you because my kid died.
- [29:17]
B
Like, that's weird.
- [29:17]
A
But. But I love, you know, like, it's just so true. Yeah. But so, like, those moments, and it is hard to navigate because, like you said, you're, like, in a professional setting. Like, this is your job. But there's those moments. It must feel good, even though it's difficult when people say, oh, you know, here's a story that you've never known about your dad. Like, I've had guests talk about that, and it's just kind of a. It's better than the alternative, right? Where people don't tell you anything, even when it's hard.
- [29:48]
B
Yes. I feel so lucky to be in a space where I can hear those stories and people share those stories with me, because not everyone has that right. And as I get further out from my dad passing, I know that will dwindle. Like, those stories won't be as on the forefront of everyone's mind. So I take comfort in and feel lucky that I get to have those moments, even if they might be hard or even they might send me into a space in my day that isn't what I thought. Like, the alternative for me would be worse. Right. Like, to not hear someone share about him. And he also just had a personality that was so likable. Like, my mom called me the other day, and she said, you know, she had to call a repair guy because the washer was making noise. And she's like, or the dryer. And she said, you know, I called this guy that came to the house six years ago to fix the dishwasher. I didn't even know if he was, like, a repairman anymore. Like, she's like, I'll just see. He shows up and he's like, oh, my God. I'm like, you know, I remember you. And he instantly asked about my dad. He was like, how's your husband? And, you know, she had to tell him, and. And he got emotional. This repairman who came to our house once because my dad just had an ability to connect with everyone and make every connection memorable. And so my mom's like, here I am just thinking, I'm hiring this guy to come fix something in our house. And then I'm having this conversation about your dad. And, like, so beautiful, right? And that's his legacy. That's my Dad's legacy. Like, there's a reason why people have these conversations with us because he created those moments.
- [31:16]
A
That's awesome. I mean, and those can be so hard because you're not ready for them. Right. Like, your mom's like, I just. I just need my dryer fixed. Like, I don't. But then you have, like. And I, you know, and I've had to shift my, like, the way I frame those moments because sometimes they can feel like you're, you know, again, it's that whole, like, sucker.
- [31:33]
B
I'm comfortable this person. Yeah.
- [31:35]
A
But they're so. It's. How amazing is that, though, right? Like, to look back and be like, my dad had made such an impact on this guy's life that he's emotional. He was in my. Like, he was here once fixing, like, a dishwasher. Like, that's like, it's such a. Like you said, legacy. Like, that is such a. You know, it's all we want, right? To, like, leave the world with connections that have impacted people positively and.
- [31:59]
B
Yeah.
- [32:00]
A
And that's awesome.
- [32:00]
B
It's a reminder. It's a reminder to me to remember that too, that, like, every interaction I have with someone is important and valued and I think the world more of that, you know, 100% being in that space of. Of welcoming and opening people up to a, like, a good moment, a good conversation, and that's all it is.
- [32:22]
A
And what a way to like, keep, like, you know, now. And I want to talk a little bit about, like, parenting, but like, for you to remember that, like, you know, if you're a mom, to call you and have that be a conversation, and then that's something that, like you said, we all can. We all should be doing this more. And some people more than others. But it's so important, right? Like, I think just to. Interactions matter.
- [32:42]
B
Like, yes.
- [32:44]
A
You know, and just because you're having a bad day doesn't give you the right to snap at people. And we all. We all have our moments of not being perfect.
- [32:50]
B
Exactly.
- [32:50]
A
You know, but, like, I just think that reminder to try and do that and the impact we can have, like, you never know when you're going to be the one that's going to turn someone's day around and then to have that be something that then you. You carry on to your. Your child and to your, you know, your nieces and nephews, like, and that's. What a way to keep his legacy, you know, paying it forward and all of those things.
- [33:12]
B
Exactly. And you just, like, continue to role model that like, you know, I hope someone tells Henry a story about me, you know, And I hope that that's exactly because not. Cause I want to be like the hero, but I just want someone to feel better because I asked a question or I sat down and chatted. And I think that's also how. How we feel at Double H all the time. Right. Like we are in the service of making people forget about some of the things that are hard and have some fun and also a space for them to have those hard conversations at the same time. So.
- [33:43]
A
So I have two questions. Like, your dad must have been thrilled when you took the job at Double H. So excited. Okay. I was gonna. I was like, that's such a excited.
- [33:51]
B
And it was funny. Cause he would like, joke. He's like, oh, now Kate's my boss. I'm like, dad, you're a volunteer.
- [33:57]
A
So was he a volunteer still when you were as you were? Of course. Cause you've been there. That's so cool.
- [34:03]
B
So, yeah, it was funny to like work with your dad, you know, like, you know, we communicate in the summer sessions by walkie talkies. And I'd hear, you know, our infirmary calling him. And I'm like, I know he's at the waterfront. Like, I know he, my dad spent more time fishing with the kids than he did in, in the infirmary. And that's good. That's what we want.
- [34:18]
A
It's awesome, right? Yes, for sure.
- [34:21]
B
But I'm like, you know, you have that moment of like, come on, dad, answer the walking.
- [34:25]
A
You're also different than the other doctors, right? Yeah, yeah. Different than like anyone else. He would just be like, oh, they're gonna answer. But like, you feel personally responsible. Yes, that's really funny.
- [34:35]
B
So it was always a dynamic of like, this is awesome. And then this is having your parent at work. There's those moments of like, you know, my sisters worked there as well through summers. And there was one summer we, you know, we were all there together. And that was so two summers we all were there together. And that was so special to have those memories and they're still involved and come up and support the ranch, which is awesome. And my mom is, you know, my mom volunteers now and comes up and helps check all the kids in. And so it still is such a part of our family. It's not, it's not gone from our family. And you know, my brothers in law are just like, love the mission of camp. And obviously Lacey is up there with me, so she adores it. That's awesome. But yeah, it's just such a special moment to have, and so many memories I have of him in that space
- [35:23]
A
and just such a place to be connected. Like, I. Like, this is sort of silly because it's not nearly the same, but, like, I love the places where you can. Like, where I can feel Jake close. And one of the reasons I record this show on this red couch that I'm sitting on is because it is. It's literally the only piece of furniture that I have or that we have that was from when Jake was alive. Like, you know, he lived in this house, but, like, we have just changed a lot of things. And this couch is up on our attic, and it's, like, the one thing we still have. And not that I sit here and, you know, I don't want to get overly corny, but I feel like it is a tangible place that Jake was so. To work in, a place that is so connected to your family and so connected to your father, specifically. Yeah, like, you must feel him there and.
- [36:13]
B
Oh, for sure. For sure. And I think so. He always stayed in the same room. Every time he stayed at camp, it was like this. You know, the Double H was an old dude ranch, so we've retrofitted it, but there's some older buildings, and he loved this room. Bear Paw was the name of the building. Room 156. He loved it, didn't want anything changed. If there's one thing about my dad, he did not, like, change. He did not, like. Like, my mom was the person in the house who's like, I think we have to clean. Like, we have to purge some of this stuff. And my dad would go in the garage and bring it back in. So, like, do not change anything. So he would send me emails at work and just be like, hey, I'm headed up in two weeks. Like, I hope Bear Paws still the same. And I'm like, we haven't touched it, you know, and it's so funny because the first year after he passed, myself and my wife and Henry came up, and I was working a weekend, a family weekend, and it was still, like, you know, it was still cold. And I was like, we need to stay in a space that has enough room that's heated, you know, I was like, well, let's stay in Bear Paw. Let's stay here. And it was so beautiful to be in that space. Nothing had changed, you know? And I'm like, this is such a beautiful moment to share with my family. And I feel so close to him, and it brought such comfort Because I was like, oh, I can, I can be in this space and, and feel him here. And it's, I feel so lucky that I get that, like, I get that space within our own family home, but I also get it at my job.
- [37:35]
A
No, that's, that's really special because that is. Yeah, I really do believe in that. You know, and it's, and before, like, before I even had words or conversations or any of this, like, right after Jake died, I remember sort of instinctively, like, he had, we had this, this big blue beanbag chair that he would sit in. It was like Pottery Barn or whatever, you know, those big ones and had his name on it. And I remember after he passed, like, I would lay there for hours, like, I'd curl up in it, but I was like, I feel like he is right here still, like.
- [38:02]
B
Yeah.
- [38:02]
A
And there is something, I don't know there. I, I do think there's something about being in the spaces where our people were. And I don't know, not to be overly like, woohoo or whatever, but I just think there's something there. So I, I, I think that's so great that you get to and like, that you spent the, the weekend there. That's, that's awesome. I love all of that.
- [38:21]
B
Yeah, it was so fun and it was so full circle. And like you said, there's comfort in being in a space that someone else loved so much.
- [38:29]
A
So the last thing I kind of want to touch on as we talk about all of these things is, is Henry your son? And you know, you mentioned he's 21 months, so he never knew your dad,
- [38:41]
B
but he didn't know.
- [38:44]
A
You probably talk about him all the time, like, so what is it, like,
- [38:47]
B
parenting all the time? It's so interesting because when my dad passed, there were three grand. He had three grandkids. Okay. There's now seven. So between me and my sisters, yeah, we're looking at like seven. Under seven. It's just been. My poor, My poor mother has been like a stress case. So. Yeah. So it's interesting because when we get together, we always just say, like, he would be so happy to see, see what is happening now. And, you know, there's that moment of like, also frustration of like, why did this have to happen? But it's so funny. We were at his funeral and a good friend of ours came up to me, gave me a hug, and said, you're gonna see your dad and your child. Like, you're gonna see your dad when you have a child. And we weren't Pregnant. We had started the IVF process, and obviously that's very frustrating and very, you know, stressful. And I was like, you know, I kind of brushed it. Brushed it off of, like. Like, I don't know if this is even going to happen. Like, yeah. You know, and it was. You know, I'm filled in that space of grief, but I. I vividly remember that. That hug and that statement. And there are so many moments I look at Henry and I'm like, oh, hey, dad. You know, like, the things he does or the. The face he makes or just something. I'm like, oh, wow. Like, he's showing up, up in this little, tiny human. And. And we talk about him all the time. We have pictures. You know, we have one of those digital frames that just runs through pictures. I love that point out, Gramps. And we share stories. And, you know, my. My one nephew was really connected to my dad and talks about him all the time, like, to the point where he's, like, telling strangers at the pool in Florida, like, I had a gramps, but he died, you know, and they're like, okay. Yeah. And that's also very hard, too. Like, my sister's like, okay, like, I didn't want to necessarily talk about this at the pool.
- [40:37]
A
Yeah.
- [40:39]
B
So, like, we are always sharing stories about him and talking about him and continue as Henry gets older to do that. But it's really hard. It's really hard to parent and to not have that person you relied on to help you answer questions. And obviously, like, my mother is wonderful and has a unique set of skills of how to raise a toddler. But, yeah, the medical things that come up, the stress I have as a parent, like, is he okay? Is. You know, he has rsv. What should I be doing? Like, that was what my dad dealt with every day. And. And it's those comfort moments, too, of, you know, his. His pediatrician was like, oh, you know, I did my residency with your dad, and he taught me everything I know about rsv. And I was like, okay, I feel great. So he comes in in these moments with Henry where I'm, like, kind of floored of how he's, like, still with us and still watching us and showing up in moments I have with Henry, which is really special.
- [41:34]
A
That is so cool. And the pediatrician story, that's great. It almost gives me chills. I feel like there's just these moments that you don't see them coming, but they're so important. And I love. We talk so much on this show and sometimes more Than I wish I did. But we talk so much about the wrong things people say.
- [41:52]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [41:53]
A
You know what I mean? Just like. But. But yeah, I want to give credence to, like, the right things people say. Right. So how cool is that that someone said that? Which at the moment doesn't. Probably didn't really resonate. Like, you're at the.
- [42:06]
B
No, I was so overwhelmed, and you're
- [42:07]
A
like, I'm not even pregnant. Like, I'm not. Like, we're not. We're not actively having a child. Like, you know, what does this even mean? Like.
- [42:14]
B
Right.
- [42:14]
A
But then to have that nugget that you can then go back to and forever be connected. Yeah.
- [42:20]
B
Yeah. I will never forget that moment and that comfort that that moment brings me now. And, you know, she had gone through a similar situation of her. Her dad passing and. Which holds a little bit more weight because you're like, oh, you've probably.
- [42:35]
A
You've been in this.
- [42:36]
B
But yeah. But yeah, that was like, such a beautiful thing that I will never forget her saying and provides me still so much, like, hope and joy. And knowing that my dad is still with us in. In various ways is. Is just so important. And that was a moment where it was like, okay, we will be okay.
- [42:54]
A
You know, there's so many takeaways here, but I always like to sort of ask the, like, specific takeaway question sometimes when it feels. What would you say to anybody who is. Either has lost a parent or the flip side of, like, what mattered to you when you were in this loss? Like, what do you wish people understood more about what it is to grieve a. Grieve a parent? Because I do think sometimes people are like, oh, it's the circle of life. Like, you know, like, they minimize. And I always like to say, you know, it's still loss, it's still grief. It still sucks. Right?
- [43:25]
B
I think before I lost my dad, I'd hear of people losing their parents or even their grandparents. I'd be like, yeah, that's what happens. Like, that's just. And I. I think going through this, I've just realized it's so much more than that. Right? It's. It's the loss of someone that you expected to be there. Right. And it's the loss of a person you could reach out to or call or send a message to, and that constant communication is gone. And it's the loss of a piece of you, you know? And my dad is so. In everything we do as a family, and he's so every decision we make I think of him and what would he would say and, like, to not have that person is so huge. And so I think the biggest thing I gained from going through this is just the awareness of, like, this is a big deal. Like, yes, people die, but it doesn't matter if he's 75 or 95, you're still losing someone that's close to you and that still hurts. And I think the biggest thing I've learned through this is to just show up better for people going through loss, you know? And one of your previous guests, Libby, is one of my good friends, and she lost her mom. And I remember sitting at her mom's wake and going, oh, this is. Is. This is potentially going to be us in six months. And it was, you know, and I think, like, the way you can show up for someone in that space is so important, no matter who the person is they lost, you know? And, like, I find myself almost sometimes, like, over showing up and then people being like, okay, like, this isn't. This isn't like that big of a deal. Like, this was my second cousin I saw twice a year, and I was like, I know, but. And so I find myself, like, sending cards and doing this stuff, and I'm like, okay, I got to, like, rein it in a little bit. But, like, the hope is that it provides some sort of comfort or joy or laughter. So I think that that's the biggest take is takeaway, I've learned, is to show up better for people who've. Who've navigated loss, no matter what the age is, no matter who the person was to you. Like, it does matter. And I had so many people do that for me, like, so many, and still continue to do that. Like, send me a random text on a Tuesday, say, just thinking of you and your dad. Like, that's so nice. Like, it wasn't an anniversary. It wasn't a birthday.
- [45:37]
A
That is so well said. And I like the way you said it. Like, just show up better for people. Because I do think, you know, we have a culture a little bit that questions everything. And, you know, should I send the text or should I send the card? And, you know, there's no harm in it, right? Like, there's no. You're not going to remind the person that, like, I, you know, I remember early on, I was.
- [45:55]
B
You're already thinking of it. Yeah.
- [45:57]
A
You're not. Like, I didn't forget that Jake died. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not going to be like, oh, crap, my son died. Shit, I forgot Right. You know what I mean? You know, like, it's always there. So it's just. It's that acknowledgement that other people are thinking of you and remembering your person. And I think those two are. Are so important. So I love the way you said that, like, just show up better for people and. And hey, you know, whether it's your second place removed.
- [46:19]
B
Yeah.
- [46:20]
A
You know, like, oh, wow. Yeah. You know, I love that. Kate, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you. I loved hearing more about your father and getting to know him.
- [46:31]
B
Yes. Thank you.
- [46:32]
A
I love that you are up at camp and. And I don't know, surrounding going into camp season starting soon, and I know you will be there. It's also great.
- [46:42]
B
That's awesome. And I. I just want to say all the work you guys do, we have a lot of families that overlap between your organization and double H. And I just. It does take a village. And I'm so glad there's programs and people who are supporting these families and providing them respite and joy and happiness and tools that help them navigate life a little better. So the work you're doing is so important.
- [47:05]
A
Thank you. No, and every year I want to come up and whether I volunteer or visit or whatever, and this summer I'm going to do it. But I know we have a lot like that first week. We have overlap of a bunch of
- [47:18]
B
a lot of your family.
- [47:19]
A
Yeah. What is it? Camp Inspiration. Is that.
- [47:21]
B
Come on up. Yes, Camp Inspiration. We'd love to have you.
- [47:24]
A
Well, thank you so much.
- [47:26]
B
Awesome. Well, thank you. This has been wonderful.
- [47:28]
A
Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it to see you next time on A Place of Yes.