Turning Pain Into Pages After Losing His Daughter

Summary

Podcast Summary: A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast

Episode Title: Turning Pain Into Pages After Losing His Daughter
Host: Heather Straughter
Guest: Jim Lebate
Date: December 17, 2025
Location: Recorded live at Northshire Bookstore, Saratoga Springs

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Episode Overview

This poignant live episode of A Place of Yes features host Heather Straughter in conversation with Jim Lebate, a teacher and writer, about his powerful memoir Our Sweet Maria. The discussion centers on Jim’s journey after the sudden loss of his daughter, Maria, capturing the intersections of deep grief, the process of storytelling, and the enduring love that remains after monumental loss. The conversation explores themes of regret, the healing power of writing, how holidays change after loss, and the importance of talking about loved ones who have died.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Saying "Yes": Moments that Matter

• Heather introduces the season’s signature question: "What's something you've said yes to?"
  • Her "yes" was stepping out of her comfort zone to host this live event ([01:00]).
  • Jim shares his own recent 'yes': helping neighbors clear a fallen tree, prompted by his wife’s encouragement:

    “And my wife, who’s so wise and always correct, said, ‘Why don’t you get out there and help them?’ And I said yes, you are absolutely right.” — Jim ([02:33])

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2. Introducing the Book & Maria's Story

• Jim’s background in education and writing
  • From Peace Corps in Costa Rica, English teacher, to a decade in publishing ([03:12]-[04:36])
  • Acquisition of practical writing skills motivated him to attempt a full-length memoir.
• About Our Sweet Maria:
  • The first three-quarters of the book detail Maria’s life — a vibrant portrait as daughter, sister, and friend.
  • The final part transitions to her last 30 days after her hospitalization on Christmas Day, a time shaped by both confusion and heartbreak ([04:37]-[08:07]).

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3. Grappling With Loss and Being Seen

• The Loneliness of Grief:
  • Jim reflects on the surreal experience of others’ lives continuing as usual when his world stopped:

    “Our loss was so big and so all consuming, yet we were just a small wave in the great ocean of life. Maria’s wave had come to shore and rested there for just over 30 years. And now she was returning to sea.” — Jim (read by Heather, [07:05])

  • Heather and Jim discuss the disconnect between the magnitude of personal loss and the indifference of the outside world.

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4. The ’Why’ and ’How’ of Writing Through Grief

• Parallels between losing his sister Peggy at age 12 and losing Maria decades later ([08:07]-[09:08]):
  • Writing as a means to make sense of grief and share Maria’s life with others.
• Book structure:
  • Jim purposefully began with Maria’s whole life, not just her final days, ensuring readers deeply cared about her before recounting her death:

    “I knew I had to have the first half, or had to tell Maria’s story, so that readers would care about her and experience what she went through.” — Jim ([10:17])

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5. Navigating Grief During Holidays

• Holidays and Milestones:
  • Maria’s birthday (Dec 21) and her passing (Jan 23) transformed the family’s experience of this time of year.
  • Over the years, they changed traditions: moving away, then later simplifying Christmas at home ([11:46]-[12:40]).

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6. The Significance of Photographs and Everyday Rituals

• The stasis of a lost child’s images, and rituals of continuing connection:

  “I talk to her as I go up the stairs. ‘How are you doing today, Maria?’” — Jim ([13:29])

  • Heather echoes this, noting the importance and strangeness of a photo timeline that suddenly stops.

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7. Parenting, Regret, and Processing Through Writing

• Regret and Guilt in Parenting:
  • Jim confronts his choices regarding Maria’s difficult fifth-grade year — not homeschooling her when she asked. Writing about these regrets brought awareness and, to some extent, peace:

    “Admitting it verbally, but then writing about it, you really explore all the details behind it... it was a challenging time, to say the least.” — Jim ([16:06])

• Finding honesty and healing through examining the ‘what-ifs’.

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8. Small Joys and Memories in the Shadow of Loss

• NFL memories and guilt:
  • Sitting with Maria to watch a Jets game in the hospital, and reflecting on seemingly trivial distractions amid crisis:

    “I was honestly thinking more about the New York Jets than I was my own precious daughter... Sometimes you have to cut yourself some slack.” — Jim ([17:42]-[18:03])

• Reclaiming moments of happiness together, even in the hospital.

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9. The Maze of Medical Uncertainty

• Frustration, Hope, and Processing:
  • The emotional rollercoaster of daily medical tests and changing prognoses during Maria’s final month:

    "I'd be frustrated some days, but then hopeful the next day for the next test, and then frustrated again... writing about it after the fact helped me to process it.” — Jim ([20:41])

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10. Family Roles, Editing, and Support

• Editing as a family affair:
  • Jim’s wife, Barbara, and daughter, Katrina (a physician assistant), acted as both emotional and technical editors ([22:17]-[22:35]).
• Navigating medical expertise within the family, and Katrina’s perspective of naturally assuming a helpful medical role during Maria’s illness ([23:13]).

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11. Advice for Grieving Parents & Community

• The Power of Speaking Their Names:
  • Jim’s central advice is to talk about the person who has died, defying the common fear that bringing them up will cause more pain:

    “A lot of people think they shouldn’t mention the child’s name because that’ll make you sad. But I think it’s just the opposite.” — Jim ([24:27])

    • Notably, a friend’s simple invitation — "Tell me about Maria" — provided profound comfort and permission to share her story.
• Heather highlights the significance of remembrance:

  “One of my biggest fears in life now, now that the worst thing has happened, the second worst thing is that people will forget.” — Heather ([25:34])

  • Even a small text or a heart emoji on anniversaries means so much.

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12. Support for Fathers and Siblings

• The Pressure to Be Strong:
  • Jim acknowledges feeling he had to "be strong" for his wife and living daughter, a common societal expectation for fathers in grief ([27:45]).
• Acknowledging sibling grief:
  • Heather notes that siblings often become secondary in others’ concern, when their grief is just as profound ([28:10]).

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13. Reactions from Readers & Maria’s Legacy

• Community responses:
  • Jim shares meaningful feedback from readers, including fond memories of Maria at church, and admiration for her persistence in her career ([29:13]).
• What would Maria think of the book?

  “I think she would enjoy it. She was a writer... She kept journals... I think she would appreciate what I tried to highlight in the book.” — Jim ([30:22])

• Faith as a cornerstone of Maria’s life and story.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On memory and the world's indifference:

  “Our loss was so big and so all consuming, yet we were just a small wave in the great ocean of life.” — Jim (read by Heather, [07:05])

• On regret and parenting:

  "I thought it would be good for her to fight her way through and, you know, just work things out. And she did, but it wasn’t a good experience. Looking back, I realized it was a huge mistake. Writing about it, just admitting it first is one thing..." — Jim ([16:06])

• On honoring memories:

  “Talk about your child as much as possible. People think it'll make you sad, but it's just the opposite.” — Jim ([24:27])

• On the importance of being remembered:

  “One of my biggest fears in life now, now that the worst thing has happened, the second worst thing is that people will forget.” — Heather ([25:34])

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Notable Excerpt Read by Jim (Jello Jigglers Story, [31:08]):

A light, humorous memory from a camping trip — Maria overindulging in Jello Jigglers, leading to bedtime mishaps.

“She started throwing up Jello jigglers all over her bed sheets... I tried to carry her to the bathroom. Big mistake... she continued to expel her jigglers all over me, the bedroom floor and bathroom floor... Me, I was on my own to clean out, clean not only myself, but the mess... What a night. We never liked camping again.” — Jim

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00-02:16: Heather introduces the show and her guest, opening up about saying “yes”
• 04:37: Discussion of Our Sweet Maria structure and plot
• 07:05: Reading the excerpt about the world continuing after a loved one's death
• 09:08-10:37: Jim’s reasoning for the structure of his memoir — building connection to Maria
• 16:06: Conversations about regret, guilt, and the healing power of writing
• 20:41: Navigating the emotional confusion of medical uncertainty during Maria’s illness
• 24:27: Grieving publicly and advocating for talking about loved ones lost
• 27:45: The "be strong" pressure fathers feel
• 31:08: Jim shares the “Jello Jigglers” camping story

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Takeaways & Closing Thoughts

• Grief is lifelong, ever-changing, and interwoven with both sorrow and joy.
• Writing and storytelling can be a balm, a means to honor, process, and maintain connection with the departed.
• Small gestures of remembrance from others mean everything to those grieving.
• Don’t shy away from speaking a loved one’s name—ask, remember, and bear witness.
• Fathers and siblings grieve in their own ways and should be supported too.

Heather closes by expressing deep gratitude to Jim for sharing both his pain and his daughter’s vibrant life, offering comfort and connection to all listening.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Heather Straughter, and this is a place of yes. In each episode, we have honest conversations about grief. The messy parts, the unexpected moments, and the ways we begin to heal through heartfelt stories and expert advice. My hope is to offer you comfort, connection, and a reminder that you don't have to navigate this alone. Today I'm joined by Jim Lebate, a teacher, writer, and father who shares the heartbreaking story behind his book, Our Sweet Maria. This episode was recorded live at Northshire Bookstore in Saratoga Springs and where Jim opened up about losing his daughter Maria just 30 days after she entered the hospital on Christmas Day. We talk about how writing helped him make sense of his grief, the moments he'll never forget, and the way love endures through memory and story. Jim also reflects on what it meant to share his loss publicly and why talking about Maria remains one of the most healing things he can do. His story is thoughtful and full of love, and I'm grateful to share it with you. Thank you so much all for being here today. This is the second time we have been fortunate enough to record an episode of A Place A yes here at Northshire. We had so much fun over the summer, and I'm just thrilled that we can be here again. I'm really happy to be here with you, Jim. I really enjoyed your book. We're gonna be talking about Our Sweet Maria, and it's really a beautiful story. It's this. I kind of. It says this on the back of the book, but I thought it was perfect. It's a true love song to his daughter, and I'm really excited that you're all here to share it with us. We start every episode of A Place of yes this season with the same question, and I'm actually going to do that here since this will be a live episode coming out in January. But one of the things that we have started doing is saying, asking. I asked the guest, what's something that you've said yes to? And it's funny, in the beginning, I realized that was a really hard question to just throw at people. So I have started giving them a little bit of time to think about it by giving an example. So one of the things, it's kind of obvious, but I said yes to Rachel when she reached out and said, I have this author who wants to do an event here. Would you be willing to come in and interview them? And I was so glad I did because I'm a big believer in getting outside of your comfort zone, doing things that make you nervous and this does make me nervous. But I am thrilled that I said yes, and I'm thrilled to be here. So what about you, Jim?

[B]

I'm thrilled to be here as well. And fortunately, Heather did give me the question yesterday so I could think about it a little bit. And my wife and I were driving home last night, and as you know, it was very windy. We lived in Cooktop park, and as we approached our development, a tree had fallen out over the road, completely blocking the road. And so my first thought was, okay, I got to back up and find another route. But at the time, there were two or three guys out there, local neighbors, trying to clean it up before the town crew got there. And my wife, who's so wise and always correct, said, and sitting right there out there and help them. And I said, yes, you are absolutely right. And we did manage to clear one lane before the county crew came in.

[A]

So that's a really. That's a better yes than mine. That's a good yes. So now let's get into the book. Do you mind kicking us off, Jim, with just a little bit about, like, a little synopsis of your story and what the book's about?

[B]

Sure. I grew up in Amsterdam locally and went to Bishop Skilly High School and Siena College. And after that, I did something that really kind of turned my life around. I went in the Peace Corps for two years in Costa Rica. I was a physical education teacher, if you can believe that. But they were trying to encourage their youth to play other sports other than soccer. So I was teaching them basketball and baseball and volleyball. It was a lot of fun. And then after that, I came home. I got a job teaching high school English at Keebne Academy in Cahoes before that school closed. And both of those were just great experiences because the Costa Rica experience especially just broadened my worldview. Amsien was such a small little world, but I thought it was everything at the time, and it was just a great experience. And then while I was at Keaveney during that era, I met my lovely wife, Barbara, and we had two girls, Marie and Katrina, which was a great experience. And then I worked for 10 years at Financial Publishing Company in Albany, Newkirk Products. And the. The great thing about that was I learned how to write. I was an English teacher, and I knew how to write, but I didn't really do a lot of writing. And so in that particular job, I was proofreading and editing and writing every single day, and people were reading my work and critiquing it, and I was doing the same for others. And so eventually that got me to the point where I was writing and I was willing to tackle a book as opposed to a short story or an essay.

[C]

Well, awesome.

[A]

I'm glad you did. So your book, one of the things that I think is really unique about it and pretty special is that it's the first part, I would say the first, like 75%, is about Maria's life. And it kind of walks you through who she was as a child, who she was as a daughter, as a sister, and you kind of really get to know her. And then it transitions as the title. So you know her last 30 days. And that is. It comes as a real shock really, you know, because it happens on Christmas Day. She goes to the emergency room as the reader, even. Certainly the way Jim writes this, you know, you're thinking that she might be out. You know, you thought she would be there a day, maybe two nights. And it turns out that wasn't the case. And I'm gonna read an excerpt just kind of to get this conversation going. And this excerpt is, Jim is moving Maria from the hospital to hospice. After the elevator rides downstairs, they wheeled Maria through the hallways in the basement to the exit and the waiting ambulance. I walked alongside Maria and she appeared to be sleeping, quiet and motionless. She opened her eyes a bit when we hit the cold air outside, and they lifted her bed into the ambulance. Then they let me climb in after her. And as I struggled to move in such tight quarters, I fell forward a bit and reached out to my hands to catch myself. And my hands landed on Maria's thigh. Dad, what are you doing? She said, somewhat annoyed that I had disturbed her rest. I'm sorry, sweetheart. I apologized immediately. And though I was sorry and embarrassed for my minor loss of balance, I was also a bit excited by Maria's reaction. She still had some life left in her. During the short ride, I looked at Maria and I also looked out the back window. And I watched as people carried on with their daily late afternoon activities. Walking home from work or school, shopping, exercising, walking their dogs. And the scene reminded me of my first experience with death over 50 years earlier. I was only 12 years old when my 4 year old sister Peggy died. She'd always had serious medical issues during her short life, but I never expected her to die. When she passed, I was so shocked and overwhelmed that when we drove down Main street to her funeral, I couldn't believe that other people were simply going on with their lives as if nothing had happened. Didn't they know that Peggy had died. I wondered, shouldn't they be going to her funeral? I felt pretty much the same way. On this day, my little girl Maria was dying. Yet these people didn't care. Our loss was so big and so all consuming, yet we were just a small wave in the great ocean of life. Maria's wave had come to shore and rested there for just over 30 years. And now she was returning to sea. So Jim, that was hard for me to read because there's so much in that for any of us who've experienced loss, whether it's family, whether it's child loss, whether it's just, I mean, even a pet, right? Like it's. When we lose somebody, it's huge and it's impossible to think that it doesn't matter to other people. So how did you like. I still struggle with it because I think the loss of our children is the biggest thing. And I sometimes struggle that other people don't get the heaviness of it. So how. And what did you do to figure out how to handle this? Because that's, you know, you talk about your sister and then you have this again with Maria. And I'd love to hear more about how you.

[B]

Well, looking back on that, I realized that they're somewhat connected. Well, obviously connected. Death of A Loved ONE but the first book I ever wrote was about my sister Peggy, who passed away. And I wrote it from the perspective of a 12 year old boy. Young adult fiction. I mean it was fiction, but it was based on her life story and our experiences and how difficult it is, especially at a young age, to lose a loved one. It's never easy, of course. And then when it happened to Maria and I was reminded of that scene, I think maybe that's where the idea for the book came in. I want to tell people about this beautiful girl that is no longer with us.

[A]

I am. So I was wondering if that somehow was like the inspiration to even write the book. How did the structure of the book. Because I think, you know, as, as a voracious reader, right, like we read. I read a ton of stuff all the time. And what I thought was really special and what I kind of already talked about was like the structure of the book, you know, the way you do the first 30 years, like you build her up and then the final 30 days, like where did that idea come from?

[B]

I think as I was preparing to write the book. Well, I know I had a lot of people who would come up to me and say, I have no idea what you're going through right now. They would say to me, to Barbara, you know, anybody who's been in that position, I'm sure you've heard that. And I thought, well, maybe I should write this down so they can just know what happened. And so I thought. I think I started working on the 30 days first because it was fresh in my mind. I'd been taking notes just to know what was going on medically. But then I was reminded of a movie I saw. I had to look this up. It was called. It was from 1981. Richard Dreyfuss was in a movie. It was called Whose Life Is this Anyway? And it was about his character, who was a very famous sculptor, but he was in a car accident and became a paraplegic, and he wanted to die. And all his medical people wanted to keep him alive naturally. And so the. The. The. The movie. The thrust of the movie was about, you know, do you keep somebody alive? Do you not keep them alive? Who. Whose Life Is It Anyway? The title is, you know, a Critical Line, of course. But I remember watching the movie and thinking, I don't really care about this character because I didn't know him earlier. I didn't know him until the movie started. And he was. First thing you know, he's in an accident, and he's being Richard Dreyfuss through the rest of the movie. But I didn't have the. The compassion, I guess you'd say. And so I knew I had to have the first half or had to tell Maria's story so that readers would care about her and experience what she went through.

[A]

That's so interesting. And actually, as you were saying that I was kind of. I all of a sudden realized where you went with it, because I will say it was super effective, because even though I. I mean, it says it in the title, right? Like. And we're here talking about grief and loss, so I know the ending of the story. But even with that, I got to know her so well that it was heartbreaking. And I don't want to say surprising, but even a little bit surprising. I can't help but think, though, so. And I had mentioned this, so it was Christmas Day. She had not been feeling well leading up to it. I don't want to give this whole story away, but she was not feeling great. She thought she had migraines. She thought she was being treated for migraines. Christmas Day just doesn't feel great. Goes to the hospital. I have to, like, I know that our time period, right, and we're about to get into it. So our son passed away December 8th. And leading, like, as we get close to that, I just get antsy and grumpy and annoyed. And, like, I just. It starts to happen and it impacts everything. How. How do you. And how does Barbara, like, how do you handle the holidays moving forward?

[B]

There's definitely been a transition because Maria's birthday was December 21st. So that week in the year was always so special. You know, her growing up and her sister. And, you know, we did so many different things, decorating the tree, decorating the house, making a big deal out of it. But after she passed, and she passed, you know, 30 days later, so it was January 23rd. And the following year, we decided, well, we're not going to put up a tree this year, and we're not going to be out there partying with everybody. So we actually went away for a weekend in Massachusetts, and the following year, we went away again right around Christmas in Vermont. We're not doing that anymore, but we still. We don't have a live tree like we used to. Some friends gave us a small artificial tree. So we really kind of downplay. I hate to say Christmas, but it's just not the same, if you know what I mean.

[A]

You had mentioned. And I related to this so much you talked about, and I hope I get this right, but you used to do a picture of Maria, a picture of Katrina, and then a picture of the girls together sort of every year. And then that year, there was not a picture of Maria. One of the hardest things that I can. Like, I talk about this on the show all the time, and I just, like, I just cannot get over it. I assume I will never get over it at this point, but there will never be a new picture of Jake. And it's weird to me because there are new pictures of Ethan all over the place. And if you're in my house, there is pictures. It just stops. Like, Jake is 4, and I can't take them down because it's my son. But there's no new ones. Does it hold more weight because of the. You had 29 years of them, or do you not think about it? And I just brought up something ridiculous.

[B]

That's an interesting perspective that I honestly hadn't thought of. Sorry. That's okay. But, yeah, we have lots of pictures around the house of Maria, and I talk to her as I go up the stairs. How are you doing today, Maria? And I do that, too.

[A]

It's cool.

[B]

Wonderful. And. And the picture on the back is. Is exciting because. Exciting for Us. One of her goals was to go back and get her master's degree so she could be a teacher. And this is the picture that they took over at SUNY Albany for her student id. It was just a beautiful picture. She's all excited, and so that's why we definitely wanted to get it, you know, out front here. And that's in the silhouette on the front is from her kindergarten classroom. I'm sure you may have one of these at your own home from when your kids were little.

[A]

I love that picture on the back. I actually was wondering when it was. She looks really happy. And I love that you say you talk to the pictures, that it's a whole other thing that we talk about a ton on the show is, you know, there's. It's interesting. So some of my guests are like, oh, yeah, I talk out loud to, you know, whoever. Whether it's a child or a parent or sibling or friend or whatever. And other people are like, no, I only talk in my head. So I like you. I totally talk out loud. But I don't know. My husband always thinks I'm having, like, staff meetings. He's like, who are you talking to?

[B]

Well, there's nobody near me when I talk to her.

[A]

There were so many themes as I was, like, reading this and then rereading it that I think resonates so much with people who have, you know, experienced loss. And I speak mostly of child loss, but I think really, any loss. And there's two themes, right? There's the theme of sort of regret and guilt. And I think that a lot of good doesn't come from either of those feelings. But those feelings are so natural. And I know I struggle with them still. Like, I can be pretty okay, but then I can be like, oh, should I have done something different? I wish I did. Or I can remember a specific incident, and then sometimes I don't even know if I'm remembering it correctly. But, like, I can just go down that rabbit hole. And you talked early in the book about, you know, Maria was in fifth grade, and she was, like, just not having a great year, as happens sometimes. Like, sometimes our kids have great teachers and life is great, and sometimes it just doesn't work out. And those are things. Like, when I think about those things with, like, Ethan, it's just part of life, right? Like, it's a blip in the road, but when you lose your child, they become huge. How do you. Like, how was it writing the book as you were remembering some of those things? So, you know, you had said that that was like one of your, you look back at that with regret still. And how do you like manage that? Does writing and talking about it help or.

[B]

It helps quite a bit, actually. What Heather's talking about is Maria asked that we would homeschool her or get her transferred to another classroom because she was struggling so much. And so we tried the transfer. The administration wouldn't go for it. And the homeschooling. I said, well, I was a little hesitant, but I think I'm a little too much old school tough your way through it. I thought it would be good for her to fight her way through and, you know, just work things out. And she did, but it wasn't a good experience. And looking back, I realized it was a huge mistake. And so writing about it, just admitting it first of all is one thing. Admitting it verbally, but then writing about it, you really explore all the details behind it. What motivated me to be such a hard nosed person about that? And I don't know, maybe it made me more sensitive to her later on. I don't know. I just, it was a challenging time, to say the least.

[A]

They are hard. You know, it's, and I think that's so hard. That's like a universal parenting thing. You know, we all try to do the best, but sometimes you just make choices that are, you know, in hindsight you wish you did something different. It leads into one of guilt. And I'm going to read this one segment and I'm very happy that Brian was able to get here in time because this segment is a little bit to him. I felt somewhat guilty because I had my own stupid and selfish thoughts at times. On Sunday, for instance, I was honestly thinking more about the New York jets than I was my own precious daughter. They were playing the hated New England Patriots and believe it or not, the jets still had a chance to make the playoffs, something they hadn't done for a long time. You ended up watching that game with Maria and they ended up beating those Patriots, didn't they?

[B]

They did. On that particular day, they didn't make the playoffs. No surprise there.

[A]

But I just had to add that in for Brian. So you, you ended up watching that game together. So I, I, I always think back on those things, right, like where they can start with guilt, but sometimes you have to cut yourself some slack because does that now, is that now a great memory that you have or like, what are the emotions around that? Like what is the feelings?

[B]

Well, that particular memory is somewhat sad because we were in the hospital of course. And she was in and out. But we often would sit on the couch on Sunday afternoon after church and watch the jets play. And so it was just a fun experience for our family. You know, the girls didn't really care as much as I cared. But ironically, I have to tell this story. My daughter, Katrina, she sat on the couch and watched the jets lose week after week after week. And one day during college, she went to visit her friend in Boston. So they're watching football over there, and the Patriots come back from 20 points down, and they win. And Katrina was stunned. My team never does that. I've never seen that before. It's a miracle. Yeah.

[A]

I'm a Giants fan, so I got nothing to say about any of that. So I do. I think, sometimes, though. So Jake, our son, was in the hospital initially for 117 days, a really long time. And I always think about, like. And I talk about this a lot because I think that I remember things, but I don't actually know that they're exactly right. You know, they're just sort of my memory or my perspective of that time. But I have learned, and maybe it's because the hospital was in the beginning of sort of Jake's illness, and then we had so much time at home. But I look back on some of those memories of us in the hospital and with Ethan being small and all of us, like, I don't know, making a life out of a hospital room. And I have learned to make some of them happy memories. And it's kind of twisted, and I think it's hard for people to understand, but I can look back on some of those, and I was like, oh, like, we. I don't know. I remember we were watching. I'm probably gonna screw this up, but, like, the NFL draft or something, and it', like, I hate an NFL draft. I could care less. But that one I remember. Who was the guy that never got drafted? Brady Quinn. Yeah. It was the year Brady Quinn was supposed to go first, but, like, didn't. Like, why would I even know that? But I know it because we were in the hospital with Jake talking about the hospital. I. I want to talk about this. And I feel like this is. I feel like I'm angry on your behalf. Right. Like. And I don't know if that's even the right emotion, but Maria went to the hospital on Christmas, like, we talked about, and for, I don't know, what, three weeks or so, couldn't figure out what was wrong. And then you finally figure it out, and what is it, like, 10 days later, she's gone. How do you. How do you process that? Like, how do you. How do you handle that? I mean, that's. I'd be so mad. And I don't know. Like, I know that I'm. And maybe I'm just. I think you. You're so gentle in your book, and you're so kind in the way you write about things, and I'm just curious about that. Like, what your emotions.

[B]

It was really challenging because as they were trying to figure out what the problem was, it seemed like every day or every other day was a new test. And then the results would come in, and they still don't know anything. So they'd try another test or a procedure or an operation. And so in the midst of it, it's hard to absorb it all. And again, that's one of the reasons I was taking notes, but. So I'd be frustrated some days, but then hopeful the next day for the next test, and then frustrated again. So it was very challenging. I think that was also a reason why I wrote about it, because to take it all in during those 30 days, it was just impossible, really. And so I think writing about it after the fact helped me to process it and realize it's one of those things I think St. Francis talks about, um, give me the serenity to. Oh, yeah, I'm getting ahead of myself. Give me the strength to change the things I can change, the patience to accept what I can't change, and the serenity or the wisdom to. Courage to know the difference. Yeah.

[A]

Were there scenes. And as we're kind of talking about that. But were there scenes that were harder to write?

[B]

Well, all the hospital scenes were really harder, and they got progressively more difficult as we got closer to a verdict. And know the transfer to hospice found myself crying as I'm writing or sitting at my computer.

[A]

How was the editing process and stuff? Because I feel like then you're really in it, right? Like, you're. Did you have, like, an editor who was telling you. I mean, I don't do a ton of writing, but I do a little. And then when I have someone tell me, like, oh, no, do it differently, then I'm kind of like, it hurts my feelings, you know, like. But not just because of my writing, but because of the topic.

[B]

Well, two of my editors are sitting right here. My wife and my daughter.

[A]

So you guys are probably nicer or maybe not. I don't know.

[B]

So Barbara was excellent at all the emotional things, and Katrina, who's a physician assistant was excellent at all the medical things and everything else. So they were just wonderful assets to have in the process.

[A]

No, that's great. You're fortunate. That was. You do talk. I didn't realize that was Katrina. So. Hi. You talked a lot about. And I thought this was actually really telling, too. You talk about not wanting the pressure to be on Katrina, like, to always have, because she was the physician assistant. And I think about sometimes that in family dynamics. Right. Like, if someone's in the medical profession, they be like, the weight of the world can become on their shoulders. And I think it was great that you were kind of cognizant of that. And now I feel like I want to ask you a question.

[B]

I'm sure she'll answer it for you.

[A]

Was that hard? Like, did you feel that? Yeah, I kind of do. Sorry.

[C]

I honestly think it was, like, sort of natural for me to think in that way. So I think it was sort of a way that I could help. And it was. You know, I was working in. Down the road at St Peter's at the time, you know, going on that I knew some of the doctors who were taking care of her. So I do.

[A]

It actually kind of felt like you were doing.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And I think it was kind of the way my brain was naturally going to handle and process that for better or for worse. I don't know if that's the right. The healthiest way. But I do think in the moment, it was something that I felt like I could do to help Maria and to help my parents left.

[A]

That's awesome. I'm sorry to put you on the spot. It's interactive here, guys. You never know. We've talked a lot. Like, I was hesitant because there's so much in this book that I kind of felt like I connected to and that I wanted to talk about. But I also don't want to give the whole. I mean, I feel like I've given the whole story away. But talking a little away from the book, what are some things? And I ask this of a lot of my guests on the show. Are there. Do you have advice for grieving parents? Like, particularly, like, do you have advice for people who are not just grieving parents, but who are struggling with loss around holidays, around any of these things? Like, do you offer anything?

[B]

Just the one lesson I feel like I've learned through all this is to talk about your child as much as possible. A lot of people think they shouldn't mention the child's name because that'll make you sad. But I Think it's just the opposite. And in fact, at the end of the book, I have a reflection essay. After Maria passed, a good friend of ours came to visit. He knew Maria when she was very young, like the first three years of her life. And they actually babysitted. He and his wife babysat for us one weekend, so they knew her at a very young age. And after she passed, he came to visit me, offer his condolences. And he said four words to me that I thought were wonderful. He said, tell me about Maria. He didn't know Maria after three years old. And it just gave me an opportunity to talk about her and, you know, share her life with him, which was so helpful to me. And so I would encourage anybody who's lost a loved one to talk about that person. And, you know, I'm sure the people around you, if. If they care and they love you, and I'm sure they do, will listen patiently and maybe ask some questions. And it's, you know, very refreshing to be able to do that.

[A]

The flip side of that, too, I think, is a lot of times we talk on the show about advice to give those who maybe are not grieving themselves, but that are, have really good friends or family members who are in it. So we always try to give. I don't know, it's funny to call them takeaways, but I kind of call them takeaways. And I think that is kind of. That serves as two purposes, right? Like, it's advice for those who have lost to be able to talk about it. But I always think the best thing someone can do for me is ask me about Jake or remember Jake. You know, most people in my life now know about Jake, you know, and know about my loss and whatnot. But I love, like. I don't know, like, I love the text on December 8, which is the day he passed. Like, it doesn't have to be, you know, a big, long letter or prayer or any of those things. It can just be a heart emoji, you know, I mean, but just remembering, because I don't know about you, like, one of my biggest fears in life now, now that the worst thing has happened, the second worst thing is that people will forget. And that just makes me feel, you know, So I don't know if that's something that you like, the.

[B]

No. I'm always amazed that either on Maria's birthday or on the day she passed, family members or friends will text us or connect with us or send flowers or a card. I think it's wonderful that they remember her.

[A]

Another thing that kind of comes up, and I try to be cognizant of it because I think for, like, the first. I don't know, many years of my grief, I just was so wrapped up in my own grief that I paid very. Like, Brian and I grieved together, obviously, but I was not as cognizant of anybody else except myself. Like, I was kind of selfish in my grief. And now I recognize, or I try to recognize that other people are grieving too. And I think that fathers are often. And I've had a few fathers on the show this season, actually more fathers than mothers. But talking about, you know, how they feel like they have to be strong. They feel like they have to be kind of the head of the household. They feel like they have to, like, make the mom feel better or their wife feel better. Has that been your experience? Or do you have any, like. Do you feel like there's any. Do you have anything to kind of offer father's experience of grief or loss?

[B]

I do remember when the doctors informed us that Maria probably had a very short time to live. The first prognosis was two to three months. The second was four weeks. And when we got that information, I felt like, okay, I gotta be strong. And, you know, I can't break down in front of my wife and daughter who have to be strong. And, you know, I tried my best to do that. I'm not sure I succeeded. But I also felt like I needed to be there for both of them. And that was a challenge as well, I think.

[A]

It's so hard, you know, And I've talked to a few siblings along the way, too, who. And it took. This is. It was sort of an epiphany for me, too, because, you know, like, we have another son. He's 20. And, you know, acknowledging sibling loss is kind of a huge thing, too. Right? And acknowledging that so often people will say to the surviving sibling, like, how's your mom doing? How are your parents doing? And they never really ask them how they're doing. And I think that that's just something I've tried to be more cognizant of because I think it's. You know, grief can be so consuming that you just kind of can get, I don't know, selfish with it, I think. Are there any responses, like, have people reached out? So I know that I've talked to a few other authors along the way, and one of the things that they have always said has been really, like, helpful for them but also rewarding has Been people who've reached out who've read the books. Do you have any like feel good stories or anything from people who have read the book and sent you a note or anything?

[B]

I received comments from two people that stand out. One is rather funny. Maria and I did a skit at church where she was in a big box that we made look like a jukebox. And we would have the kids come up and pretend they were hitting a button, you know, two buttons to get a song. And she would sing a love song, you know. And she did that, you know, three or four different songs she sang. And the woman just thought that was the cutest thing. So I did too. It was pretty wonderful. And then there was another woman who she just commented on the fact that during Maria's working career she graduated from college in 2008 and she never found the teaching job really that she wanted. But this woman commented on the fact how during all that time, Maria wasn't just sitting back and not doing anything. She was taking whatever she could where she was interacting with children, teaching Sunday school classes, working in an after school program, just anything she could do to build up that resume to finally get a teaching job. So she admired her for that.

[A]

It's always great when people recognize, especially strangers, I think. What do you think Maria would think of this book?

[B]

I think she would enjoy it. She was a writer. She left. In fact, the book has quite a few examples of her writing. She kept journals at various times in her life. She tinkered with poetry a little bit. She started to write a fictional book. So I think she would appreciate that and I think she would appreciate what I tried to highlight in the book. Like I said, her desire to be a teacher, her enjoyment of being with her friends and family, and her relationship with God. She had a strong relationship with Jesus and gave her life to him before he died or long before she died.

[A]

I was hoping that you could share an excerpt from the book. Like something that, you know, the book is written so personal and so like you can just feel like you know, the father's love. So I was, I was hoping you would have a favorite section that you could share with the audience.

[B]

And one final funny memory from our first summer in that small apartment involves Jello jigglers. Each year around Memorial Day, my brother in law Paul and a few other hometown friends organized a camping weekend for the dads and kids. No moms were allowed. He'd invited us previously, but I felt our girls were too young and Barbara wasn't quite ready to Let them go. By the summer of 1991, though, Maria was 5, Katrina was 3, and Barbara probably needed a break from us, so she said it was okay. In fact, she eagerly helped us pack and load the car. She made some sandwiches for us, and she even made one of the girls favorite treats, Jello Jigglers. For those of you who have never tasted these jigglers before, they're obviously made out of Jell O, but they are made in small, easy to handle shapes like stars, fish and circles, among others. These jigglers were packed in the cooler along with the sandwiches and drinks, and we headed out with our small tent for one overnight. With four other families camping nearby at a lake about two hours away, I felt one night would be a good test of our camping abilities. And everything went pretty well as far as I could tell. We swam in the lake, we explored in the woods, and we ate our sandwiches for lunch and hot dogs for dinner before we sat around a campfire later that night. The only problem that occurred went completely undetected by me until the following night when we made it home and went to bed. Apparently, during our short excursion with no mom around to supervise, Maria so enjoyed those Jello Jigglers that for every bite of a sandwich or a hot dog, she also ate a Jiggler. That's a lot of jigglers. So at home that night at about midnight, she called out, daddy. Naturally, I ran into the girl's bedroom to see what was wrong. Fortunately, an exhausted Katrina was sleeping in her own bed. So when I got to Maria, she was sitting up and I said, what's wrong, baby? She didn't say a word. Instead, she started throwing up Jello jigglers all over her bed sheets. At that point, I panicked. Instead of allowing her to finish in one spot, I tried to carry her to the bathroom. Big mistake. Poor Maria continued to expel her jigglers all over me, all over the bedroom floor and the bathroom floor until we reached the toilet. What a mess. By then, of course, Barbara was awake and had rushed in to clean up Maria and comfort her. Me, I was on my own to clean out, clean not only myself, but the mess in the bedroom, the hallways, and the bathroom. What a night. We never like camping again.

[A]

I love that excerpt. Thank you for sharing it. I do. I think it's so. Because while the book is heavy, it's also filled with stories like that. And I just think it's excellent. Thank you so much. Thank you for doing this with me. Thank you for writing the book and sharing your Maria with us.

[B]

Yes. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

[A]

Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it to see you. Next time on A Place of Yes.