What Losing My Mom, Dad, and Sister Taught Me About Grief | The Grief Girlie

Summary

Episode Summary: "What Losing My Mom, Dad, and Sister Taught Me About Grief | The Grief Girlie"

In this poignant episode of "A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast," host Heather engages in a deeply moving conversation with Shea Wingate, a grief therapist who has navigated the harrowing experience of losing her father, sister, and mother within a span of thirteen months. Released on December 11, 2024, this episode delves into the multifaceted nature of grief, the unexpected complexities that accompany multiple losses, and the transformative journey of channeling personal sorrow into meaningful support for others.

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1. Introducing Shea Wingate: A Journey Through Profound Loss

Heather opens the episode by welcoming Shea Wingate, highlighting their shared journey in the grief community. Shea recounts her early career aspirations and her intrinsic interest in grief work, which set the foundation for her therapeutic path.

Notable Quote:

A (Heather) [00:02]: "When I started doing this podcast, I was shocked at how much there is out there now. And when my son Jake passed away almost 14 years ago, this world didn't exist. It was very isolating. It was very alone."

Shea shares the timeline of her losses:

• Father: Passed away in March 2019 from a sudden heart attack.
• Sister, Karen: Died in January 2020 after a traumatic and unexpected incident.
• Mother: Succumbed to stage four ovarian cancer in April 2020 during the COVID-19 lockdown.

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2. The Complexity of Grief: Different Losses, Different Experiences

Shea elaborates on how each loss affected her uniquely, emphasizing that grief is not a one-size-fits-all experience. The suddenness of her father's death contrasted sharply with the traumatic and unexpected loss of her sister, while her mother's death was intertwined with prolonged illness and the challenges of the pandemic.

Notable Quotes:

B (Shea) [04:07]: "I really got a bunch of different experiences about how grief happens. And I guess for my schooling I thought, like, I'm gonna know what to do when I grieve. I had no idea what to do."

B (Shea) [05:08]: "Grief with my dad had a different energy than the grief with my sister than the grief with my mom. It was the relationship that was different."

Heather and Shea discuss the often-misguided expectations shaped by media portrayals of grief versus the unpredictable reality. They touch upon the varied emotional responses triggered by different kinds of loss, highlighting the personal and situational factors that influence grief.

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3. Becoming a Grief Therapist: Turning Personal Pain into Professional Purpose

Shea's personal losses catalyzed her decision to specialize in grief therapy. She reflects on how her experiences exposed gaps in the mental health field regarding grief support, motivating her to create a practice tailored to the nuanced needs of those mourning.

Notable Quote:

B (Shea) [24:43]: "I couldn't imagine doing anything else. I love what I do. I'm so excited to do it. I'm really good at it. Like, I get it."

Shea discusses the challenges she faced when traditional therapy approaches fell short in addressing grief. This realization drove her to establish her own practice, where she could offer specialized support, emphasizing the importance of understanding grief as a distinct therapeutic category.

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4. Sibling Grief and the Hierarchy of Loss

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the unique position of sibling grief. Shea explains how societal perceptions often overlook the grief siblings experience, leading to them becoming "forgotten grievers."

Notable Quotes:

B (Shea) [16:15]: "There's this higher hierarchy in grief. It's like, was she married? Like, how's your mom? You know, like, it's almost like her husband and my mom were the most hurt by this loss."

B (Shea) [17:11]: "My sister held a part of me and my childhood and my life. ... It was like all of this structure in my life was gone."

Shea emphasizes that each family member mourns different aspects of their relationships, making the grieving process both personal and varied. She highlights the importance of recognizing and validating each person's unique grief experience within the family dynamic.

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5. Coping with Anniversaries and Milestones

Heather and Shea explore how anniversaries, birthdays, and holidays can reignite grief, often bringing back intense emotions even years after the loss. They discuss strategies for navigating these challenging times without the support structures that previously existed.

Notable Quote:

B (Shea) [28:08]: "September was hard because that's my mom, my dad, and sister's birthday all in that month. Which, imagine just like, all three of them."

Shea shares her approach to lean into grief during significant dates and milestones, advocating for curiosity and self-compassion rather than avoidance. This proactive stance helps in mitigating the overwhelming feelings that can surface during these times.

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6. Practical Advice for Those in Early Stages of Grief

In the concluding segments, Shea offers invaluable guidance for individuals grappling with raw grief. She underscores the importance of community, shared stories, and understanding the "language of grief" to foster connection and healing.

Notable Quotes:

B (Shea) [35:40]: "Listen to other people's stories, Read other people's stories. ... It's this whole world of grief that you don't even know."

B (Shea) [36:50]: "Your loss is the worst for you. This is the worst thing that happened in your world."

Heather reinforces Shea's advice, highlighting how connecting with others who share similar experiences can normalize one's feelings and reduce the sense of isolation that often accompanies grief.

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7. Conclusion: Embracing Grief as a Lifelong Journey

The episode wraps up with Heather and Shea reflecting on the enduring nature of grief. Shea candidly admits that her grief will persist throughout her life, but she has learned to manage it with grace and resilience. Heather appreciates Shea's commitment to helping others, recognizing the profound impact of her work.

Notable Quote:

B (Shea) [28:49]: "I'm much better than I am. Like, I did cry a lot in September and, like, felt really bad some days, and that's okay."

In their final exchange, they emphasize the importance of continual support and the healing power of sharing stories within the grief community.

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Key Takeaways:

• Grief is Multifaceted: Each loss carries its own emotional weight and nuances, influenced by the nature of the relationship and the circumstances surrounding the death.

• Specialized Support is Crucial: Traditional therapy may not adequately address grief, underscoring the need for specialized grief counseling.

• Sibling Grief is Often Overlooked: Recognizing and validating the unique grief siblings experience is essential for comprehensive family healing.

• Embracing Grief During Milestones: Instead of avoiding significant dates, leaning into the emotions they bring can facilitate healthier grieving.

• Community and Shared Stories Foster Healing: Engaging with others' grief experiences can provide solace and a sense of belonging for those mourning.

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Final Thoughts:

This episode serves as a testament to the resilience of the human spirit in the face of overwhelming loss. Heather and Shea's candid dialogue offers both empathy and practical wisdom, providing listeners with a profound understanding of grief's complexities and the avenues available for healing. Whether you're currently navigating your own grief journey or seeking to support a loved one, this conversation illuminates the path toward finding "A Place of Yes" amidst the shadows of sorrow.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to A Place of Yes, a podcast about how I moved through my darkest hour. And for me, that was in channeling my grief into good. Welcome to the show. So welcome to A Place of yes, where we focus on channeling our grief for good. Today's guest is Shea Wingate, someone I found on Instagram and actually helped me in my own grief journey. So. So I love that we are actually kind of coming a little bit full circle and that you are a guest on my show on A Place of Yes. When I started doing this podcast, I was shocked at how much there is out there now. And when my son Jake passed away almost 14 years ago, this world didn't exist. It was very isolating. It was very alone. There just wasn't this network. And since starting this podcast and doing some of the work we do with the foundation, I have just become excited that it exists, that there are people like you online providing support, even just with posts on your stories, and then otherwise doing online grief counseling, and that that world is so available to people now. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you for doing the work you do. Can you share a little bit of your journey? So for you, you lost your father, your sister, and your mother all within 13 months?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for having me. It's always great to. To, you know, share my story. I always, like, hope it helps people. I can remember listening to grief podcasts, following the grief hashtag on Instagram, desperately trying to just find other people that felt the way that I felt and also get some hope. And that was. That was really helpful for me. So I'm always glad to do that for other people. But my story can probably do a long and short version, so I'll start with a short one. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was in my 20s and just had graduated from grad school a few years earlier, became a counselor, became a mental health therapist. During that time in my studies, I was really interested in grief work. And like you were kind of saying, the field of grief was growing. And so I had done some work in the grief area and studies in the grief area and thought it would be amazing to work with grief. And of course, I did work with grief when I graduated because we all have grief. I spent a few years working as a counselor, and then I got my own grief education through life. And I lost my dad, and that was a sudden loss. He died of a heart attack. And me, one of my brothers, my mom were present, and my mom had just been diagnosed with stage four ovarian cancer when he Died. So you know, going through all of that with her and I mean, obviously his death was such a shock. And then my older sister Karen died at home. She fell, hit her head, choked like it was just this awful death. Like my brother in law found her awful for him. It was so hard because I had been there with my dad. I felt like I, like I don't know how much he actually knew I was there, but I felt like I had supported him and been there for him. And when my sister died, we weren't there. And so that was really like a different experience. Experience for me, very difficult. And then my mom decided to stop treatment. It wasn't working anyway and she was just have. Like she had lost her husband and her daughter. She was done, understandably. So she went on hospice and me and my brothers took care of her and she died while we were there. So it was all these different losses back to back, right? It was a sudden loss, but I was present. A sudden loss, but I wasn't there. Was. Those were like both horrible in their own way and then an expected loss when I was there. So I really got a bunch of different experiences about how grief happens. And I guess for my schooling I thought, like, I'm gonna know what to do when I grieve. I had no idea what to do.

[A]

That is such a, such a true statement, right? Like, I think before you experience grief, you think, I don't know if it's from like Hallmark movies cards, but you sort of think that there will be these very clear stages and you're in them a certain amount of time and then when you're actually experiencing it not even close.

[B]

And even though I had experience like studied complex prolonged grief and how grief can be more complicated by these different factors, it's almost like it didn't even register with me when I was doing that work with people or studying that. You really have to like. And one thing that surprised me was all of my grief response. Like they were so different. Like the grief with my dad had a different energy than the grief with my sister than the grief with my mom. It was the relationship that was different. The way that they died, the way I found out that they died, the timeline of their death, you know, all of that was like ingredients in the grief that I had. And I kind of just thought like, oh, I know what it's going to be like. It's all going to be the same. It's all going to be grief.

[A]

Did you think after the loss of your dad, like, did you think that you were prepared for the loss of your. Of anyone else? Like, did you think. Cause you had been through it or had you known you.

[B]

Well, when my sister died, I thought, oh, well, I know, like, I know what's coming because I just, you know, I mean, I was. I was still in it. It wasn't even. It hadn't even been a year since my dad died that my sister died. So I don't know if I had many high level thoughts.

[A]

How long ago was that from now? Like how. I know the whole thing happened within about 13 months. But when was that?

[B]

So it was 2019 when my dad died, March 2019. And then January 2020 when my sister died, and then April 2020 when my mom died. So it was interesting because my mom died during COVID lockdown. Like I think everything locked down in March. And I was like working remotely as a therapist and helping her with her hospice needs in between sessions. Looking back on it, insane. But I didn't know how long hospice was gonna last. And, you know, everybody was just doing their best. So when she died and we couldn't have a funeral, I was so relieved because we had just done a funeral in January and we'd just done one the year before. And I felt after my dad died, I didn't want to go anywhere. I didn't want to do anything. So the world shutting down was like. It felt right.

[A]

You were like, it's okay, I can handle this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you, your mom had already been diagnosed with stage four cancer when your dad died. I suspect you're probably all together dealing with this, you know, different. I don't know if it's grief or like, but, you know, you're kind of figuring out what's happening with your mom. And you said your dad was completely like you guys were there, but you did not see it coming at all.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, she had been diagnosed, I guess, and I mean, she kind of knew something was wrong around Christmas 2018, and then put off going to figure out what was going on. Yeah. So I can remember like her coming to my apartment and not seeming like herself and seeming really tired and it just like wasn't her. So looking back, it was like there was some signs. But then she got diagnosed, I think in February, and then he died in March. So it was really quick. He took her to the. Her first chemo and then he died like 3am, like the next day.

[A]

And did you see his death coming at all or that was just completely.

[B]

Yes and no.

[A]

I mean, like, he was an impossible question.

[B]

Yeah. Like, he was totally stressed out. He was. He was. He was so completely upset. I remember being, like, kind of frustrated with him because he was so disappointed. I mean, it was stage four ovarian cancer. How do you. How are you positive? But he really wasn't positive, and he had, like, a friend's mom who had died from it. So I think he just thought, like, this is grim. And it was. He was right. We all were. Of course, how people try to stay positive. We were, like, being positive, and he really wasn't. So maybe I think the stress got too over. I mean, he had a heart attack.

[A]

Like, what happens those three losses? And like, you said, very different, right? Like, one unexpected but present, one unexpected. And how did you find out about your sister? Just.

[B]

My mom called text me at work and said, call me, and I was like. Like what? Like, she wouldn't.

[A]

Yeah, Nothing good's coming from that. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And I was like, oh, she got bad news.

[A]

And then it was probably assuming that it had to do with her. Probably, right. Yeah. Which. Which loss hit the hardest? Or did they just all just pile up?

[B]

Oh, my gosh. They did pile up. They really did. They all just hit for different reasons. Like, I mean, my dad's loss was so traumatic. We were trying to wake him up, and, like, my brother was doing cpr. Like, he had to, like, pull his body to the ground. That was really scary. My mom was on the phone with 911, like, riding in the ambulance, watching them work on him. Like, that was a lot. It was really scary. So that one hit in a different way, and then my sister's was, like, eerie to me. Like, what happened to her? Like, how could this be? It was almost unreal. And then my mom's. The hospice experience was hard. It was really, like, we didn't. I don't think we knew what you were signing up for. It was just all on our own. She wanted to die at home, so we did hospice at home, and it was during COVID So she had just been in the hospital, and I'd taken her to the emergency room, and they didn't let me go in, so we didn't want her to die on, like, FaceTime with us, so. But it was really a lot of work, and it was hard to take care of your mom like that when you were, like, 27, you know, just. I didn't want to be doing that.

[A]

Your sister, how. How did you process that? So. So she felt so. I mean, I. This is.

[B]

I don't know. Don't even know yeah, like I know what the cause of death report said that we got like forever later.

[A]

It takes forever.

[B]

Yeah. But it was important for me to go see her body because we had seen my dad's body and I think I just int. Knew that from school and just from like how we need to process grief and mourn and we. Everybody was cremated. So when I came home after I found out she died, I kept pressing like, we have to go see her, we have to go make sure she's okay, which she's not okay, she's dead. But it just made sense to me at the time. And everybody kept telling me, like, you don't want to do that. It's going to be really grim. It's going to be an awful experience. And I just kept pushing it. And then one day my brother in law called my mom and said like the cremation place that they would like get her ready for us to see her if we want to. And then my mom said, yeah, we should, we needed that. We needed to see her, to say goodbye, to really make it real in our minds that she had died. Even though that was like so hard, it was so good for our family to do that and to go see her body and be together.

[A]

And I am. I think that is something that unless you've experienced it, you don't know how valuable that is. When my son passed away, he was 4. And as I hear your stories, there's. There's a couple things where I feel like really kind of connected to. One is when you talk about your brother had to move your father to the ground and was doing cpr. Like, like Jake was on my watch. Like Jake was sitting on my lap and something went wrong and we had to call 911. And my other son was 5. He's actually the one that called 911, like watching that happen. Right. Like, I don't know about you, but I have. It was 14 years ago, but I can still picture some of those moments. Like they're just, you know, when you talk about grief being a journey, I still feel like some days I can picture that and I'm right back to square one. Do you have that kind of experience sometimes? Like where it's just like. I don't know, I picture it.

[B]

Oh yeah. I mean, I could definitely retrieve the memory. It doesn't like intrusively bombard me how it used to, but if I wanted to pull it up, I could. It's blurrier now and I mean, I've worked on that healing. But yeah, like I really. I really think we did a good job. And all of them of, like, going towards the grief and the death rather than running away from it.

[A]

Running away. The piece with your sister that I, you know, I was. I was thinking of too, is so. So after Jake passed, both my husband and I were like, okay, let's. Let's get him buried. Let's put this behind us. Kind of, you know, kind of not. Not having been counseled in any way or have thought about grief. And even though Jake had a lot of medical issues, we really didn't think. We were not prepared for him to die like we did. It wasn't on our radar. And one of the things that the funeral director did was he very, very much gu. To put a little bit of time between that. Like, you know, we wanted to do, like, I wanna say, like, Friday, Saturday, and he was like, let's do Monday, Tuesday. Like, and he had us kind of pick Jake's favorite outfit and. And we went and visited him. And at first I was like, no, we'll never do that. Like, I just kind of was very. I don't wanna say defensive about it, but just kind of disconnected. And I can tell you kind of when you were saying, like, I think it was one of the most instrumental pieces of my grief journey, like, having that closure and having that. Whether it's like the mind, body connection or whatever that is. It's important.

[B]

It is. I can always. It's never a surprise to me when a client hasn't had that, that their grief is more prolonged and complex and complicated. So it's really hard for our brains to not have that. So if somebody died and then decisions were made and the person never got to see their loved one's body or didn't get to be a part of those decisions or for whatever reason, couldn't get there right away. Like, I've just seen through my work that it makes it difficult. And so then we have to do this work of almost like, trying to, like, process what happened to the next. Because they go from. In their mind, the last memory is them alive and fine, and then they're gone. It's like they disappear, they vanish. And so that can make people's grief really. Yeah, like, disconnected. So I. I think we need to slow down, spend time, just do what we can. I know that's not an option for everybody, but if it's not an option, then you need to work with a therapist to help you process that. Because it's very hard for your brain if you don't have that time with that body.

[A]

It is one of the things that I. Whether it's someone who I met who's lost a child, like, similar to my story or just any loss. That is one of the things I say is, like, if you have that opportunity, even if it sounds weird or even if you're initially. Because I feel like I was almost initially repulsed by the idea. Like, no, why would I sit here with my dead son? Like, for me, it was. It was scary. But like I said, it's hands down when an integral part of my going through it. Healing. Healing. That's the right word. Your mom, you said she wanted to stop chemo following your sister's death. Is that connected, do you think, to, like, the loss of a child? Like, so I feel like that's. It's so much on you, but so much like, that's hard.

[B]

It's so complex because loss of a sibling is just like this. Like, they're the forgotten grievers. And so that. That's like. It's a whole other podcast probably. But, like, when I walked in the house after my sister died, my mom was unrecognizable. Like, I'd seen her, like, my dad died. I'd seen her go through that, and she was obviously going through a cancer, which is, like, so strong for us. Like, missing my dad's dad. So confused about what happened, but, like, gonna fight and gonna be there for us and do what she had to do. And she took care of, like, he had a business that she had to close and sold our family home. And. But then when my sister died and she lost her child, my mom. It was like my mom was kind of like a part of her was gone. And she was obviously getting bad news about her treatment. It wasn't working. So, I mean, you know, that didn't help. But I remember seeing her and be like, oh, whoa. Like, this is really different for her.

[A]

Different. It's. You know, so you've. You brought the. The sibling piece up, too. And I spoke with someone on the show about that, you know, and it. For me, it was so interesting because she talked a lot about her role when her brother died was almost to be the one that people would say, like, how's your mom doing? Like, how are your parents doing? And it made me sort of be really reflective because I think that's my other son's experience, you know, so. So my older son, the one who called 91 1, the one who lived through this whole loss too, even when I know better, is still Sort of like you said, the forgotten griever.

[B]

Yeah. There's this higher hierarchy in grief. It's like. Like, was she married? Like, how's your mom? You know, like, it's almost like her husband and my mom were the most hurt by this loss. And, yeah, you end up answering a.

[A]

Lot of questions, for they get the most attention.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And my sister held a part of me and my childhood and my life. And I could say Green Forest Cove, and she knows what that means and all this complexity and nobody else does. Or I could say our golden retriever, Holly, you know, and nobody else knows what that means. And so part of me and my history, you know, died with her. And I think that people maybe don't realize that it is hard because, like, there is that, like, level of import. Like, this is more important loss for your mom or more important loss for her husband than for you.

[A]

How close in age were you with your sister?

[B]

So she was 38 when she died, and I was 27. So in a way, like, my sister was like. She was like a big sister who took care of me. I remember her, like, basically doing my school reports for me. You know, she was the person who would just do, like, do all these things for me. She was a cosmetologist. She would do my hair and makeup for all my dance recitals, and I was her living mannequin when she was in cosmetology school. The only kid in middle school with chunky blonde highlights and wax brows. Like, we had so much fun together, you know, And. And so, yeah, she was older than me, but she was around. Like, I have two brothers. One of them lived in Nashville and one lives in New York. And my sister was local in Memphis, where I grew up. And so she was over all the time. You know, she was the one that was around. It was like, holidays, weekends, pool time was my mom, dad, me, my sister and her family. So it was like all of this structure in my life was gone.

[A]

What was your sister's name?

[B]

Karen.

[A]

I think about when you say the hierarchy of grief, because I've talked about that, and I very much, for the first part of my grief journey, for sure, was, I don't know, like, kind of a jerk about it, for lack of a better word. Right. Like, I was like, I lost my son. There is no greater loss. Like, nothing else compares. And I was very. I didn't go to counseling. I didn't go to therapy. I didn't do any of that. I just was kind of like, here. This is the absolute this is what everybody fears. It's the worst thing that can happen. And then over time, I very much. Now I'm a hundred percent in the other direction. Like, loss is loss. And. And not to simplify it, right? But like, I have seen people get so upset over the loss of a dog that they have had that to them is. Might as well be human. And that to me, like, who am I to say what grief is stronger or worse or. Or any of those, right. And we don't know what's going on in other people's lives. And. And like, that's a lot to happen in 13 months. It's a lot to happen in 13 years. Right. Like, so I. I do think one of the things that is helpful about coming out about this, like, kind of like you said, hashtag grief, right? Like, there's. There's so many places where you can find things now, I think for people to hear these conversations and to hear experiences that we have, right? Like in the way that you can change your thinking and the way you can feel one way, one time and then change it to something else.

[B]

I want to say something about, like you said, my loss was the worst. Something I always say to my clients is, your loss is the worst for you. This is the worst thing that happened in your world. And like, this. This is the worst. It absolutely is. And then I tell them, go read other people's stories, because you will find your grief and all the. In a story about pet loss and a story about relationship laws, a story about death, like, you don't have to. It doesn't have to all line up to find a grief. Grief is grief, and your grief is the worst. And I think something about siblings grieving is. I thought my brothers would be the best support for me because they lost the exact same people. They didn't lose the exact same people. Their relationships were different than mine. And they were also treading water, trying to stay afloat. They were grieving too. Siblings trying to manage a grief together. It could be really complicated. I get questions about that all the time. So it was just helpful for me to realize, oh, they're grieving too, and they're not gonna have the same experience as me because they didn't have the same relationship to those people as me. Yeah, like, we've tried to create relationships together, and we have. Of course, it's never the same as what. What it was with, like, our family all here. Everybody has been ripped apart a little bit. I live in Nashville now. Part of the. I was living in Cincinnati when my sister and mom died. And then part of the reason why my husband and I moved back to Tennessee is because one of my brothers is here. I just realized when I was in Cincinnati, like I was just so far away from them. I was talking to them on the phone a lot, you know, and I just, I needed to kind of get back to them. So me and my brother that lives here, we're closer now. We weren't as close before all the loss. We're the closest in age, but we weren't as close. But we've really tried. It's been, it's been like we had to get to know each other. And then my brother in Memphis, we were close because he had moved from New York back to Memphis and lived with my parents. So we were close through my parents and my sister. But like he relied on them a lot right after they died. I sort of was like trying to fill in the gaps for my parents and sister and how they supported him. Then I realized like, I can't, I can't do this.

[A]

It's not your role.

[B]

Yeah, I'm not. My parents and my sister and I can't do this. And yeah, we're just like not as close. But yeah, it's just interesting. I never would have thought that sibling I'm close to would be the one that I am closest to. Grief changes things.

[A]

Grief does change things. Do you feel any like, like when the holidays come by or. I don't, you know, birthdays, anniversaries. Sometimes I find the hardest days are just, I don't know, you know, it's you wake up and you have a hard day. There's doesn't necessarily need to be a reason. Do you guys gravitate to. Do you try to keep some tradition or family stuff together on holidays?

[B]

Well, there was just so much change. Like I moved to Ohio, my mom sold the house, they die, everybody died. You know, I moved back to Tennessee. Just so much change. So like I don't do what I used to do at all anymore because what I used to do is like go to my parents house and everybody would come there. And that's what we did for every holiday. So I don't, I don't do that anymore. And I have some of my mom's things, like some of her Christmas decorations and stuff. I'll put those up. And I have my parents dining room table. So if my brother's here, like we'll do that, but my brother, Memphis doesn't come and we don't like force Him.

[A]

It's so hard sometimes. I think sometimes the hardest is becoming comfortable with, like, expectation and finding your own expectation. Right. Like, and kind of being okay with it. I know in the beginning, I pushed hard. Like, I'd be like, oh, we always did this, so we have to do this. That's not necessarily the case. Right. Like, I think sometimes you have to. And you kind of touched on it. Like, everyone's grief journey is different. And I like how you said, like, yes, like, your loss is the biggest loss for you, but as I think of that in terms of your family also, like, each of you are grieving different relationships, even though you're all grieving a parent law, you know, I mean, or a sibling.

[B]

Yeah, well, like, everything fell apart. Like, even the home that we would be in for the holidays wasn't our home anymore. So I could see if maybe, like, just my dad died, and then my mom stayed in that home, and she was well. And, like, my sister and I were still in town, you know, like, we would maybe try to do the same things, but it was, like, all exploded. So there was. Yeah, like, nobody expected us to do anything because, like, it just all, like, the structure of it fell apart. The house and foundation got, like, blown away in a storm. But there's, like, a fence, and I'm in this, like, empty yard. Like, I have some semblance of my life, but, like, the home and the foundation are gone. Like, my. My parents and my big sister who, like, took care of me, they're gone. So it just felt like I really had to grow up and, like, make my own way a little bit.

[A]

So you were a. A licensed therapist already. Did this push you into wanting to focus more, like, to be a grief therapist? And. And did you engage with grief therapists, like, as you were going through this?

[B]

Yeah. So, like I said, I was interested in grief work, and I thought it would be. I mean, it is fascinating, amazing work. I had some great training in my, like, school, and then I got to do some grief work outside of that when I was a therapist, but I was just doing general therapy. Like, I wasn't doing anything. I wasn't specialized in anything. And then, yeah, all the grief happened. One point, we moved back to Tennessee. I hadn't worked for a while because I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I was just taking a break after everything, and I remember coming downstairs and saying to my partner, like, I think I want to be a grief therapist. And he was like, okay. So I'd always, like, wanted to have my own practice. And so I think it just sort of, like, fell into it. But, I mean, I did therapy. I did support groups. I could tell when somebody, like, was grief trained and not. And that really, Bob, like, that bothered me. Therapists who didn't really understand grief, that really bothered me. Grief is so different than any other mental health. Like, the interventions are different. Everything about the way you do therapy is different. And so when people were trying to do, like, a trauma or depression intervention on me and I needed grief work and they were just totally missing the mark, that really bothered me. So I think that also motivated me to do this work. A lot of people don't get trained in grief. It's just not something you have to get trained in necessarily to be a therapist. So I think people think they can use the interventions that they know for other things. Like, grief can sometimes show up with anxiety, and they'll use the anxiety intervention. An intervention for anxiety is getting rid of the anxiety. An intervention for grief is companioning the grief, letting people share their story. And so when people try to get rid of my grief, it would make me so angry was the wrong thing to do. So I think that really motivated me to open my practice.

[A]

I was going to say, that sounds like the perfect catalyst for this. And when I was first thinking of you for the show and asking you to be on it, it was this whole idea, because that's kind of the heart of it is, like, you took your grief and you figured out where there were these voids, and now you. It's purely channeling your grief for good. Right? It's. It's. It's almost like sometimes you need to be the per. You want to be the person for people that you didn't always have. I think people are always, like, you never went to therapy. Like, what is wrong with you? And I just never did. Like, I didn't consciously not. It Just 14 years ago, the world was a little different. It wasn't as easy. Like, I was more concerned about my son who had called 911 on his brother, like, and I was really focused on being a good mom for him subsequently, like, starting the organization and finding these ways, sort of like you say, of where I could keep Jake very much alive, and I could talk about him and I could share stories and I could do all of the things that I think are helpful, but didn't know it in an organized way.

[B]

You know, like, one of the purposes of your podcast is taking the grief and turning it into something like making some meaning out of it.

[A]

Yes. And that is what I think you have really done. Right. As you talk about going through these, like. And not funny is not the right word. But when you're like, oh, you're not. You're not giving me the therapy that I need, you're treating. And I think that's really valid. Right. Like, if you're treating anxiety, you're trying to figure out how to make that. If your anxiety is coming because of grief, you've got to address the grief, not the anxiety. And I ask you this both as, like, grief counselor hat and also as personal hat. Like, you've experienced all this loss. You try to help others who experience this cumulative. Do you feel like you're still processing your grief?

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah, Absolutely. September was hard because that's my mom, my dad, and sister's birthday all in that month. Which, imagine just like, all three of them. All three of them, yeah. I mean, that was hard. Like, of course that's hard. So. Still dealing with it. My grief is gonna last a lifetime. I'm much better than I am. Like, I did cry a lot in September and, like, felt really bad some days, and that's okay. Like, I don't have to be fine on their birthday, and I can still be a good therapist and be feeling better and have a hard day. I think now I just know to just lean into it. I'm not afraid of grief and just lean into it. I just know.

[A]

And when you're having the day.

[B]

Yeah. I just know exactly what to do. I do it. Try to be curious about each holiday anniversary. Something big was. I got married this year, so I was so nervous about that and did a lot of work with a therapist leading up to that. And then the day was beautiful and fine, and my husband cried the whole time, and I didn't shed a tear. Like, I had a great day, you know? So I think we just have to be curious about milestones in life and death. Anniversaries, birthdays, holidays, going into it, being curious. And I think if I had said, it's going to be this way, then maybe I wouldn't have listened to myself and given myself what I needed. I knew leading up to the wedding, I was very. I wasn't excited to get married. And I was like, this is not a good sign. I need to figure this out.

[A]

You're like, what is this? What is it telling me? Yeah.

[B]

I knew it was grief. And so. So I was like, okay, I must need some. It must need some space. Of course it does. So, you know Taking the time to process how I was feeling with a therapist was more appropriate than doing that with my fiance, who didn't want to hear about, you know, I was, like, not sure about everything. Yeah. I was just like, how am I gonna do this day without them? I've always imagined my wedding is like picking out a dress with my mom, my big sister, doing my hair, makeup, my dad walking me down the aisle. Like, I didn't think about who I was gonna marry. I thought about all the fun I was gonna have with my family. So I had to. I had to give that space. It mattered. It was so important to do that. And if I hadn't, I don't know what the wedding day would have been like. I think it would have been. I think I would have been kind of having to shut down and just avoid a lot of things.

[A]

I think sometimes when people are. And it doesn't matter the timeline. Right. Because we've kind of talked about that grief kind of. But it's. It's very easy to go numb. It's very easy to put that wall up and just stop feeling. And I like how you said, like, to be curious about it instead of, like, kind of preconceived, because I definitely think that sometimes I let myself go numb.

[B]

Yeah. I don't really do that anymore. I think I did do that. I remember the beginning, like, somebody saying, like, you're stressed. I was like, I'm not stressed. Like, just, like, screaming back at them, like, oh, maybe something's. Maybe I'm.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Like, so I had a lot of experiences of avoiding my grief and then it blowing up and then that being a mess and then not getting the support I needed because everybody was upset that I, like, you know, yelled or whatever. I had to learn really quickly. Okay. Like, I can't do that. That's not good for me. So leaning into it, just, like, not being afraid of it. I think I was really scared of, like. Like, what would happen if I leaned into it. It was going to overtake me. Would I ever get out of it? Like, it already felt so bad. And then you lean into it and you realize, oh, you can do it. It's okay. And then you come out of it feeling better.

[A]

I actually love that because you're right. Like, it can be so scary. Right. Like, I know. And I think for a while, I just wanted to run from it because I didn't want to lean into it because. Exactly that. Like, what if I. What if I can't be a good mom to Ethan? What if I can't get out of bed? What if I can't? Like, so you just push through. So you. You started getting specifically, like, you were interested in grief. All of this happened. I think you're. You're finding out that there's a specific way to help people through this process. Is. Is how did you end up doing it the way you do it now? Like, where you're kind of on Instagram and. And how do people find you? Like, where are your clients from? Like, how do you. Who do you serve? Tell me more about what you do.

[B]

Yeah, so people find me on Instagram. I was on Psychology Today for a while. I think that's like how I started even before I had an inst. That Psychology Today is a website where you can go find therapists. It's like a directory for therapists, for people to find therapists. So I had a profile there, and so people were finding me there. And then I had this idea of doing the Instagram. And for a long time it was really. I was like, the therapist Instagram that, like, who would even follow? It was so boring. It was like, I don't know, just. It wasn't real. And then I was like, nobody wants to followed this account. It's almost like following a doctor's office. I had to work through that. I think as a therapist, you're trained to be really neutral and you don't bring any of yourself into the room. You're just there for the client. But grief is different. Grievers want to know that you speak the language. Care what like a therapy professor says about my Instagram helping people. But it was hard for me to break down that wall. And so I spent the last couple years trying to do that and be more myself and do things like these podcasts. Share my story. I think I was nervous the beginning to share my story because it was so intense and, you know, it's a lot, but people resonate with it. I find that people want to know that you speak the language and they want to know your philosophy on grief too. So, yeah, people find me through Instagram, through other, like, referrals. Other people have worked with me and share and like, I have a website. I guess some people find me there, but mostly online through Instagram.

[A]

Can you. Could you picture doing anything else?

[B]

No. Yeah, this was as. I was made for this. This just makes sense to me. My dad was a business owner. I kind of. I got familiar with that in my childhood. I've always been curious and like a sensitive person. I was Drawn into being a therapist, drawn into the grief world, and then had this experience, it just feels like it was the right thing to do. It feels like what I was made for. I couldn't imagine doing anything else. I love what I do. I'm so excited to do it. I'm really good at it. Like, I get it. It's something that, like, I get.

[A]

And I think that, you know, you touched on something earlier, too, where for so many people, grief is scary. You don't want to face it. You don't want to go through it. And then I think once you start talking about it and once you. It's almost like you don't want to stop talking about it. Like, I love the story you shared about your sister. Like, and the. You know, the things that only you guys hold dear. Like, that's. It's like, it makes us all so much more human. No, I think you were made for this, too.

[B]

And I like getting real with people and, like, going to the heart of what's going on. And grief is so human. Like, everyone will go through it. And a lot of times when I have clients, especially young clients, who their friends don't understand, people around them don't understand. Like, wait, they will. This is life, you know? And you. You will know how to support them. Not if they go through a hard time in life, but when they do. And maybe it's grief or maybe it's something else, but grief shows up a lot of different ways.

[A]

That's a whole other podcast. That's a whole other conversation, right? We talk about that, right? Like, all the different ways. And some of my guests, you know, who have not experienced traditional grief yet, but are in the throes of, you know, the ambiguous grief or the anticipatory grief and all of those things. My last question. What's your advice to those who are in that early, raw grief of just the throes of it?

[B]

Listen to other people's stories, Read other people's stories. I know it's hard to read, but listen to podcasts, follow people, create some things in your world, like in your Instagram feed or your podcast or books or shows. Let other people stories be there because it's gonna help. Like, this urge to, like, be in the grief world. We'll get into it. You can find art and music and shows and podcasts and books that are in it. Like, it's out there. Is it so interesting? It's this whole world of grief that you don't even know. And then you're like, oh, wow. Everybody's talking about this. Or all of these things come from grief. So surround yourself with that and you'll find your story. It'll help you feel more normal, less alone. One of the things that I really encourage people to do is, like, start learning the language of it so they can express it for themselves. Sometimes people listen to a podcast or follow somebody and come back like, oh, they said. They said it like this, and that's what I've been feeling. And then being able to say what you've been feeling is so empowering. One, it helps you feel, like, connected and less crazy. And then also it helps you understand your own experience more when you listen to other people's stories.

[A]

I love that. I think that's absolutely correct. Right? It's easy to feel like you're the first person or the only person going through it, but then you talk to people and you realize you've got a network. Thank you so much for being on the show and for talking to. Talking to me about all of this. We always end the show, and this is always a little. It can go in many different directions, but we always end with, like, a segment called Ask Heather Anything. Would you be willing to ask Heather anything?

[B]

Yes, absolutely. Okay. What podcast has stood out that you've recorded, has stood out to you this year and why?

[A]

I'm kind of going through the Rolodex of podcasts, and I'm answering that question. I'm going to say the one that I did with Annie Orenstein. She wrote a book called Always a Sibling, and for me, for two reasons. One that we sort of touched on a little bit, but it was so insightful for me personally and so helpful for me to think of the way my processing of grief could have impacted my son and to really help me see my son now at 19, and understand some of the things. Even though he was five when he lost his brother, but they were only 15 months apart. And I just learned so much from her.

[B]

Yes, Annie is amazing. Her book is amazing. If you were a sibling griever or a parent of a sibling griever, you have to read that book. It is so helpful. I recommend it to all of my sibling grievers.

[A]

Thank you again, Shay. This was great. I enjoyed this conversation a lot. Thank you for being part of it.

[B]

Thank you, Heather.

[A]

Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. Please follow us wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you really like this episode, please share it with a friend. It would make a world of difference if we could just reach more people and share the work that we do and the stories we want to tell. Thank you so much for watching.