← A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast 
A Place of Yes | A Grief Podcast
What to Say When Someone Is Grieving (And What to Stop Saying)
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Heather Straughter, and this is a place of. Yes. In each episode, we have honest conversations about grief. The messy parts, the unexpected moments, and the ways we begin to heal through heartfelt stories and expert advice. My hope is to offer you comfort, connection, and a reminder that you don't have to navigate this alone. Today I'm joined by Shelby Forsythia, a grief coach, the founder of Life After Loss Academy, and the author of of course I'm Here Right Now. Shelby lost her mom unexpectedly when she was 21, a loss that eventually led her into the work she does today, helping people navigate grief and find language for the feelings that often feel impossible to explain. In this conversation, we talk about the thoughts so many grievers carry and how a few simple words can make someone feel seen instead of shut down. Shelby shares the phrases she teaches people to use, why words matter more than we think, and how showing up for someone in grief doesn't mean having the perfect thing to say. It's thoughtful, practical, and deeply compassionate, and I'm grateful to share it with you. So I'm here today with Shelby Forsythia, who is a grief coach, founder of Life After Loss Academy, and the author of a book, of course. I'm here right now. And this book is pretty fantastic because it's actually like a guide filled with language, filled with tools to help support others and also ourselves through all types of grief. And I read it through the perspective as a griever, but also as how do we. Because I do find it challenging. Right. Like, even when you're a griever and you think you know what to say, we all have those moments where we freeze. And your book is kind of this framework about how to work through that. So I'm excited to have you here. I'm excited to talk about all of these things. Welcome to the show.
- [01:51]
B
Thank you so much, Heather. I'm really, really glad to be here today. Yeah. And to your point, as a griever, even I was like, oh, I don't always know what to say either. And so writing this book was a real adventure in that sense, finding the words, going out to see the words.
- [02:05]
A
Finding the words, absolutely. So in your book, there is this stat, and I wanted to start with this because literally when I read it, I couldn't stop thinking about it. So you shared that each year in the United States, 2.5 million people approximately die. And with that death, there are five to nine people grieving them. And just the way my mind works, when I read that, like, I couldn't stop. Like, I was extrapolating, like all of these people. And it, it makes the point, right? Like, and we talk about this show on the, talk about this on the show all the time about how everybody will face grief. And if you haven't yet, unfortunately, you will. Like, it's just part of how we live. It's the human experience. It's all of those things. But thinking about it in terms of the math of grief or the numbers of grief, it spoke to the importance of books like yours and conversations like the one we're having and the ones we have on the show, because basically everybody you come in contact with is in one form of grief or another at some point in their lives. So I just, like, I'm fascinated by that and I guess I just never thought about the numbers of it. So your book really addresses that. You know, it addresses how, how to deal with grief on an, on an ongoing basis. But before we get into everything like that, I would love to, if you could share a little bit of your grief story. I know you've lost your mom and a very good friend, and those are two huge losses. And I just was hoping you could share a little bit of your story with us.
- [03:42]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I love that you picked up on the statistics and the numbers. And something that often frustrates me is that at least in the United States, a lot of the numbers are limited to death when we talk about grief. And so when I share my loss story, I often share my deaths first because I'm like, oh, this was what people think will qualify me as somebody who's able to talk about grief. And so I share about my mother's death. She died very, very suddenly from a return of breast cancer in 2013. But I also appreciate talking about, and start my story by talking about non death losses because I think there are a lot of different things we can grieve. Not just people and relationships, but, but ideas and dreams for the future or even forms of who we are. And so my mom's death in 2013, I was 21 years old, in my last year of college. That loss was like, I joke that it was the worst cherry on top of four years of back to back losses. My father lost his job, which wasn't necessarily a direct loss to me. But our family was flung into financial uncertainty for the first time ever at a pretty stable childhood. Then I came out of the closet as a queer person in the American south, which was like kind of accepted, but also kind of not. And there was a lot of God stuff wrapped up in that and all that that implies. And then my dad got diagnosed with two brain aneurysms that almost killed him, one on either side of his head. And so, as a daughter, I watched him grapple with whether or not he wanted to undergo surgery, whether or not he wanted to try surgery and try to live or accept his fate and die, which was awful as a daughter to watch. I was only 19 at the time. And as soon as he recovered from both surgeries and we came to the and of the meal trains and the carpools to Duke University Hospital and all these other things, my mom got diagnosed with breast cancer. And so our family once again was flung into this season of great uncertainty and meal trains and carpals to the hospital and medical tests. And my mom underwent chemo and radiation and eventually surgery and was declared cancer free in January of 2013. And then 11 months later, her cancer came back. And the short story of it is, is that doctors called our house on December 19 and said, we can buy you time, but we can no longer cure you. The cancer has spread too far. And hospice said, you have about six weeks to six months to wrap up your life and say your goodbyes. And my mom died in seven days. Seven days. Yes, seven days. And it was the worst. To this day, I call it the first and the worst. It's the first and the worst thing of that level that has ever happened to me. And I often give the visual that it was like someone pulled the rug out from under me, but then someone pulled out the floor and then the foundation of the house and then the ground underneath it, and then the center of the universe. And it's not that my mom and I were that close. We were, because she was my mother and I am her daughter. But we were also fighting when she died about my queer identity and who I was as a person and all these other things. And so when she died, I not only lost her role as a parent, but I also grieved my relationship to family and to God and a world where if you're good enough, good things will happen, and if you're bad enough, bad things will happen. Like, the order of the universe really was destroyed in her death. And I spent about two to three years really fighting and suppressing my grief over her death. I had a few friends, family members, professors, who kind of stuck around for the long haul, which we'll talk about when we talk about. Of course, I'm here right now. But for the most part, I felt like my grief was a burden on my life, that obviously things would never be the same again, but that I continued to feel so intensely about her loss, that I was crazy and that I was alone and that my life was just going to be this flavor of bad and sad and terrible forever.
- [07:43]
A
I think it's so important what you said about like, you know, it wasn't just the loss of your mother, but it was like the order of your universe. Right? Like everything and it pushes us. And I remember feeling like that when Jake died, when all of a sudden I was like, but wait a minute, this isn't how it's supposed to be. Like, which is just such a. I mean, who knows what things are supposed to be, right? But like, but you're, it's not just the loss of the person and the whole thing. It's like your role in the world and if you are no longer identify, like if you're no longer that part of it, it's like your whole system, your whole identity gets shaken up. So I, I just, I really connect to that because I think a lot of people think of grief in terms of like the loss and the relationship of that specific. But it really can shake your whole being. Like, it's really like, yes. Earth changing. Like earth shattering. Yeah.
- [08:35]
B
Yes, yes. One of my favorite teachers, I got certified in her grief professionals program. Her name is Megan Devine. I'm sure you've heard of her across this podcast and in your work. But she talks about how loss is just not life changing. It is like worldview rearranging. And when my mom died, especially after my dad like almost died and then lived almost like a movie, I was like, I didn't know, I didn't know for sure that actual death was an option. And that's a very 21 year old thing to say. I'm looking back now as a 33 year old, but like to understand and especially too for you, the death of a child. But like I didn't understand that that was an option of how the world could be or how my life could go or how this could end. I didn't know that that was an outcome I ever had to factor in. And I hear that from so many grieving people who are like, if this is an option, if that was how this turned out, then I can't predict or find safety, stability, security in any of of it. For as much as we like to
- [09:31]
A
pretend it's so interesting because it's so true. And you're taking me back, you know, 15 years when Jake died, but you know, When Jake had his first seizure at eight months, I kind of thought that was as bad as it could get. Right. Like, I was like, okay. And you talked about, like, you know, grief isn't just the loss of a person. It's our own grief and who we are. And I remember really struggling at that point. I was. God, I don't remember how old I was in my early 30s, 31, I guess. And I was just like, you know, everyone was like, you have to grieve the life you thought you were going to have. Like, you thought you were going to be the mom of two healthy boys, yada, yada, yada. And I struggled so much with that because I felt like it was almost, like, disrespectful to Jake if I did. But I now look back on that and realize that that was part of it. But I thought when he got sick and we spent that time in the hospital and he. And all of that, I kind of thought that was it. Right. Like, that's the worst thing. I never thought of death as an outcome. I just thought our life changed. It pivoted, and this was now it. And when he died, it really. All of those things, you know, I'm crazy. I'm alone. My life will be like this forever. Those were all, like, on repeat in my mind, along with all these other things, because the safety of the world as we know it is no longer there. It's so. It's. You know. And I think in my journey so many years ago, there wasn't these conversations in this language and all of these things, and it's so important, and it's why I kind of love doing it now, because I wish at 35, when my son died, I had some of these ideas. And I love that we are having these conversations now.
- [11:01]
B
Yeah. If someone had even told me then, to your point of like, oh, you're not just grieving your mom, you're grieving the safety of the world, I would have said yes. Like, that would have made sense. I have had to seek out language and find language for that in the years since her death. And to get back to the story, all that began happening because someone stole my wallet in 2015. 2016. Must have been 2015. I was in a coffee shop in downtown Chicago. And this was not like a violent altercation, but someone just stuck their hand in the back of my purse that I had hung over a chair, which I now know not to do. But I was in my 20s, and they grabbed my wallet and they walked out of the store. And I had just applied for a job, and so all of my, like, Social Security card, driver's license, like, credit card, everything that was vital to my life was in that. In that wallet, in that bag. And having something that was so precious and crucial to my life be taken from me just shot me right back to my mother's death, of having something so precious and crucial to my life taken from me by death. And that was the first time since my mom died, almost three years after her death, that I let myself absolutely break down and wail for what I had lost. And it's like the wallet was the trapdoor doorway to that grief, but my mom was the thing underneath it. And I remember I got home after canceling all my credit cards because I had a lot of money stolen from me. And I, like, wailed on my bedroom floor and put on Scream of Music. To this day, I'm so surprised that none of my neighbors called the police because it was very loud. And I was living in an apartment in Chicago. But after about 15 minutes, I remember stopping because I was just out of tears and out of rage and out of grief for that moment. And I heard this voice in my head that said, you just gave yourself permission to grieve. And I was like, God, who are you? What is this? What's going on right now? And I describe in my first book, when I talk about this moment, I had felt like a glass that went through the dishwasher. Like, I felt like I was finally clear of all the grief gunk for the first time ever. And I was like, permission to grieve? What is that? And that moment was kind of the lightning bolt event that got me started on searching. What is grief? What is loss? What does it mean to give yourself permission to grieve? How many different ways are there to do this? Who's out here talking about it? I got a Chicago Public Library card for the first time ever. I started reading books. I started listening to podcasts like this one. I just absolutely dove into grief almost at first as a self project. And then I started sharing what I was learning on just, like, my private Facebook page, back when Facebook was cooler. And that turned into Facebook Lives, which then turned into a podcast of my own. I'm kind of rushing through this part of the story, but in the past 10 years since that moment, I have worked with grievers all over the world. I've hosted many, many podcasts. I've written two books, and now the third one's coming out, but just found this role in the world of being a person who helps people wrap language around what they think has no words. And the thing that I get feedback about the most is it's not just that when we come together and talk about grief that, like, I'm good at talking about grief because I think a lot of people are really good at talking about grief. What people find the most help in, in the work that I do is the language, is the scripts, is the phrasing, because they're not just able to communicate to themselves, oh, this is happening. Like, oh, you are grieving the world, for instance. You're grieving a worldview or the way things were supposed to go. They are also able to share those things with other people and say, this is how I'm feeling. I can't put words to this. But she did. And so that has made all the difference.
- [14:49]
A
So I, I, I do love the structure of your book. And the first time we talked, I hadn't read it, so I was like, I just wasn't as prepared. But now it's so clear to me in the title. I just, like, it's like, it's great. So the title, of course I'm here right now are kind are these and we'll. I kind of want to touch on each one because there are, you know, and you sort of say in the book, like, you can use them individually at times, rarely, but sometimes you can use them all sort of as one. But they're these ways of not making the griever. And I think this is, you know, I think this is such a delicate subject because I think I believe at least that most people, when they say things to those that they love who have lost someone or who are going through hard times, the intent and is often good, right? Like, people are not trying to be malicious or awful. But that doesn't mean that if you are on the receiving end of something that is, you know, when we all know them, you know, they're in a better place. All of the things that people say that make us feel a little ick, like, I don't know another word, but they don't make you feel better. And they're the things, unfortunately. Like, I remember all the horrible things people said to me, even if they were not intended to be horrible. I rarely remember who made me feel better. I mean, I remember some of the stuff, you know, I remember the friend who just showed up with the coffee and said, you need fresh air. Let's go walk. I always, you know, sometimes when there are no words, sometimes it's just, hey, let's go walk. But I love that this just. You create a script and the one thing you say is, like, even though they're easy words, you have to practice.
- [16:35]
B
Yeah.
- [16:36]
A
You know, and I kind of like that because it's like, you know, it's, it's. And it's such an important thing to practice because we want to make others feel better and we want to validate sometimes our own. Like, I loved reading your book because I was like, hey, I see myself. I'm still a griever 15 years later. I'm a huge. Like, I. I mourn Jake every day. And some of these things explain to myself why I'm acting the way I'm acting or feeling the way I'm feeling. So you talk about the things that most, if not all, Grievers identify as or are feeling. And those feelings are, I'm crazy. And I know I have felt it. I know I feel it on his death day. I know I feel it on random days. I know there are things that I don't even know are going to be happening that will be triggers that will set me off at some point still. And I will feel crazy. Alone. We feel alone, like grief. Even though it's universal and we all experience it, it's a lonely thing. We don't. We still are awkward about it. And I love that there are these tools to try and be less awkward about it, but we still are. And then that idea that your life is going to be like this forever. Yep. And that those are kind of your three, like, I think you call them, like the dominant ideas, but like, just the big ideas that people have. And I like that you kind of shared your story, because I think it's important. But you experience those feelings all yourself.
- [18:00]
B
Yeah. That's part of why I was able to give language to them. I first started seeing them, these three stories. I'm crazy, I'm alone. It's going to be like this forever. When I was working with other people who are grieving, but then as they would put language to it, I would look back at my own experience of my mom's death and be like, oh, I see it there. I see it there, too. I see it over there. I see it in this. And I can come up with, as I'm sure you just did, all these experiences of on a death anniversary, on a birthday, on that one time I was waiting tables in downtown Chicago on Mother's Day. And I've never taken my mom out for Mother's Day Brunch but all these people are here with their moms, and why isn't mine here? And why can't I take her out for brunch? And suddenly I was outraged at this thing I never wanted in my whole life, but suddenly I did, and I felt so crazy for it. I'm like, why do you need this? You have never once wanted this in your whole life. And now, because other people get the privilege of having it, now it's something you want. And I felt very crazy and alone and like my life was gonna be that sad forever in that moment. Absolutely. And you don't. I notice that grieving people don't necessarily tell themselves the stories all at the same time. Not all Grievers feel crazy alone forever, constantly. A lot of times, it's sort of like a rotating lazy Susan, where we're rotating in and out of the three stories, or sometimes we feel combinations of them at different times and in different seasons, depending on what we're going through or how and where we. We don't feel supported. Yeah.
- [19:26]
A
So I love. So the first one we'll start with, of course. And that was kind of. I feel like that is the one that, in my personal experience, is the most. Because it's like that validation for the feelings at that moment. And even when those feelings might be something that you're not proud of or you're not understanding yourself, and you use the example in the book, which I actually love. It's, you know, not to go into it, because people will read the book on their own, but it's. It's the story of someone who had lost a child, someone else she knew is then pregnant, and she's feeling all of these feelings. And I think in the example, at one point, it was like, of course you're annoyed that someone you don't even like is experiencing this pregnancy that you lost or, you know, I mean, but it's. It's validating that feeling of like, hey, it's okay. We're human. And sometimes I just loved it because it was like, it's okay to acknowledge that some of the reasons are. It's not just like you're sad because of your own loss. You're sad because you're like, why does that person get it? And kind of like, you know, you're. You're talking about the Mother's Day. Like I did. It's not. Wasn't even on your radar or something you wanted to do or would have done, but it's annoying that other people get to do it. And I Just love that validation. Because I think so many of us. It's not just the feeling. Crazy about how you're feeling, but there's also shame and judgment, and you're worried about what other people will think. And then you feel like a horrible person because why are you mad instead of happy for someone or those kind of feelings. So the.
- [21:00]
B
Of course
- [21:03]
A
I love it. Of course you feel that way. Can you talk about where that came from? Because I just think that that is. It feels simple, but I know it's not.
- [21:10]
B
Yes, well, this is the story I'm glad you're referencing this. That began this book. I did not understand, especially early in my. In my work as a grief coach, and definitely not in my grief experience, the power of just words to change how we grieve. Kind of like you, I knew what felt bad. I remember having a college professor who told me after I started crying in her political class where we were learning about political funerals two months after my mom died. You know, like the assassination of JFK and Martin Luther King and all these other things. And I was like, I can't handle this. And I walked out of the classroom, not loudly. I didn't make a scene. I just walked out. She said, we can't be sad forever. And I was like, good God, that hurt. And I remember this, like 13 years later. I have no idea what she's doing with her life, but I still remember and resent her 13 years later. So a lot of grieving people, we remember what feels bad, but we very rarely remember what feels good. And I remember I was on the phone with this client who had. She'd had multiple miscarriages and then gotten pregnant and found out that from her team of medical professionals that because of medical malformations, this baby would not survive outside of her body. So she finally got successively pregnant and carried this baby almost to term and then found out this baby will not be able to live outside of your body. And so she was pre grieving the. This baby that would most certainly die. And then some random acquaintance on Instagram that she didn't even like just said, I'm pregnant. We're gonna have a baby. Woo, boo, boo, boo. With like all the hearts and the likes and the comment congratulations and confetti and. And she was just spiraling. And I think what she expected was that I would join her in making the case that she was crazy. She was angry at this woman for having this experience that she desperately wanted, and for no other reason than she saw it on Instagram, like She had nothing against this lady, but just like, no, angry. That's my dream life and I don't have it, and I'm deeply grieving right now. And then she laid the second case against herself for being such an, pardon me, a hole towards this life for having all these feelings. And so she's like, I shouldn't feel so sad. I should be over this by now. I should be able to be happy for her. And I remember just kind of relating to her experience. I think she was expecting me to jump on the should bandwagon. And instead I said, of course you'd be upset that someone you don't really like is pregnant and pregnant so easily. And I remember she just got really quiet and, like, all the energy of the room changed. And she's like, I've never thought of it that way, that I would be allowed to be upset about this whole thing and that I'm not being ridiculous. And I said, no, this actually sounds really normal to me. And that was the one sentence. Of course you would be upset. You're grieving. Of course you would be sad that this. Of course you would be unable to focus at work. Your dad's been dead six months. Whatever the of course statement is. I was like, oh, this is the opposite of, you can't be sad forever. You just need to get over it, be happy for her. But whatever prescriptive garbage grief advice people would give, of course, is the opposite of that and other ways of saying this. I give a lot of alternatives in the book because I'm like, you can't, of course, somebody forever. But to say things like, that makes sense, or I hear you, or I can see how you got there, or I follow your logic, or one of my favorites and I talk about this in my online community is on I believe you. And even if you don't agree with the experience that this person is having, even if I felt that this client should have been able to muster up some joy for her friend and be like, maybe say a nice thing on Instagram and then turn off your phone for the day, I still could have said, I believe you. I can see how painful this is for you. And that is still validating, even if I don't necessarily agree with what's happening. But for the record, I totally did. No, it's like, I'm with you in
- [24:51]
A
your anger a hundred percent. And that's why I think it resonated so much with me, because that's the thing, right? We have. Even if you take grief out of it, Right. Like, there are responses. They're human responses and feelings and whatever. And it's not like she's gonna, like, send her a mean note, but it's. Of course she feels that way and all. And like you said, you can. You felt the energy shift because it is. It's all of a sudden like, wait, I am not in this dark space in my head. I am. My feelings make sense. Other people have them, other people understand them. And finding that, like, then you're like, okay, now. And you had said, like, she was spiraling, and it can kind of stop the spiral. Like, all of a sudden you can take the breath and move on a little better. You know, it. It reminds me too of. And this I also found fascinating. And I'm jumping a little bit of where I was going to go. But. But some of the things you said about, you know, well, you can't be sad forever. And all of these things that people say are in these contradictions that people say, right? Like, I think of them in terms of, you know, so the example of like a widow, right? So some people are like, oh, well, you can't stay home forever. When are you gonna get back out there? And then other people are like, wait, you're going on a date already? You know, so it's as the griever. You're in this really weird space. And when Jake died and for years afterwards, and this was a huge struggle, I actually, like, wrote about it because it haunted me for years well past the time I sort of thought it would, but it just did, was, so when are you gonna have another kid?
- [26:26]
B
Yeah.
- [26:27]
A
And I was always like, how. Who. Who asks that? Like, why would you say that? Like, and all it did to me, like, and I actually called it made me think that they wanted me just to have a replacement child because it made them feel less bad if I would have done that. So I just think that when people said those things had they said, of course you're upset, you know, like, of course you're feeling that way. It. It sucks that you lost Jake or, like, even just gave, like, faced it. You didn't need to make me. You didn't need to fix it. You just needed to not make me feel even worse.
- [27:02]
B
Right? Yeah, Correct. And I think it's funny when you write a book, you're always afraid of, like, what the feedback's going to be of people who are. Who are negative about it. But one of my fears about negative feedback of this book is like, these phrases are nothing. They feel like nothing. They're not going to solve anything. And my response to that, to your point, is like, well, they're not really supposed to. They're supposed to be. They're designed to be so small and so covert that the only thing they do is validate where a grieving person is, of course, accompany them in the isolation of loss. I'm here and offer time, context, and anchoring that this moment will not last forever without saying that right now. So that's it. That is all these three phrases do. But I'll tell you what. And a lot of people say, well, actions speak louder than words. I did a podcast episode on this recently on my own show called Grief Girl. I said, there's nothing more painful than being brought at casserole, which is a lovely action by somebody who says everything happens for a reason. You just invalidated your whole kind gesture with one phrase. And so I'm telling you, for grieving people, and this is the soapbox I'm standing on with this book, is that words matter more than actions, which is why we should all care so much. And beyond that, words are free and work. Whether we are able to be in person, like sharing an office with somebody or a household with somebody, or whether, as Covid taught us, sometimes we are separated by miles and miles and miles and miles. They work over text, email, FaceTime. However you are connecting with people, words are your firm form of currency and communication and care.
- [28:42]
A
It's so true because the act, you know, it's interesting. We are conditioned to think that, you know, your actions speak louder, but it's not. And I love your example because that action, a good action, is invalidated by the words where the. That can happen all the time, right? Like, why bother to do something really kind and nice if you're gonna then crush me? Like, at my core. Because words can crush you at a. At your core, where some of the other things can't. Right. Whether you brought the casserole or not, if you didn't, I'm devastated. But if you said something, I am like, words have such power in both directions. So it's, you know, I love this. So I'm here and I like that that's actually, I just said of of course, is my favorite. But I kind of like I'm here because I feel like that really is just. You don't have to solve. And I think a lot of people come at grievers feeling the responsibility on their shoulders that they have to fix it, that they have to make the person feel better. And sometimes you just have to show your presence. Right. Like, you just have to, like, I love nothing more than on my days or approaching my days that are hard, whether it's Mother's Day, because that's always a hard day for me, because it's like, I have to be happy for my own mother and I have to be happy for my other son. But the whole of Jake is huge on that day for me. Or whether it's Jake's birthday or any of the things when someone without me having to do anything shoots me a text that's just like, hey, I know it's tough, but here I am. Let me know, you know, Even if it's just like a heart emoji, but just knowing that someone else is there, I rarely need anything from them, but knowing I'm not alone. So the I'm here is just probably like the shortest but the most important in some ways.
- [30:31]
B
Yeah. And this is what so, so, so, so, so, so many grieving people say, I just want you to show up. I just need you to show up to support me. I just wish people would show up. And the anxiety, I think that a lot of comforters or supporters have is like, well, what do I say when I get there? What do I do in order to show up? And the statement, I'm here. That's it. That's your homework. And I love the statement, I'm here. And I often I'm a little silly with this one and say, if you are not a feelings person, if you're. Do not feel like you have a high degree of emotional intelligence or you're afraid. I'm like, I'm not a counselor. I don't know what to say to somebody who's grieving, I'm here is like, that is your golden ticket to supporting someone who's grieving. Because all you have to do couple times a year. Better if you can do a couple times a month. But a couple times a year to just send a text, send an email, send a photo of a flower from a yard, say, hey, just thinking of you. Haven't forgotten that you're grieving. Low lift, low effort. I know people who are listening to the podcast can't see my gesture. I'm like spreading my arms out wide and being like, that's it. That's all you have to do to make and help grieving people feel like they are not the only ones who are carrying their grief. Because over and over again, as I talked about before, the biggest secondary loss that people face besides the biggie, whatever the thing Is that they're grieving a death, divorce, diagnosis. I joke. I work with the 3Ds, death, divorce and diagnosis. And then any other loss that changes your life after that big thing that society can point at a name and say, yes, that is a loss. The second thing grievers lose is relationships to friends and family and coworkers who disappear or vanish or don't know what to say. And so this I'm here. This is my favorite version of I'm here. I have not forgotten that you're grieving. Other ways of saying that is your grief is safe with me. Your grief doesn't scare me away. I'll be here for the long haul. Like there's so many different ways of saying I'm here. That is such a low lift way, but offered over a long time to help someone feel like they have not been abandoned in their grief. And so you prevent them from that secondary loss of needing to grieve, then their friends and family and co workers that have fallen away, you show that you are the one that stays well.
- [32:42]
A
And there's two things there that have been talked about so often on the show with other people and they're so connected to this one. One is exactly what you just said. When people who have such a close, you know, I just spoke to someone for this season whose husband passed away and they were like a very close knit, like I think she said, like group of six or seven or whatever that were just friends. They did things on the weekend and one by one they just, she doesn't, you know, seven years later or whatever it is since his death, they don't talk anymore. And other people had assumed that that group was going to be there for her. So they didn't reach out because they assumed she was taken care of. And how easy it would have been for just anybody to just, you know, everyone made it more complicated. And in fact she ended up having to grieve all these friendships and all of this, all these other relationships at the hardest time of her life already. It just was harder. And I think about that because it really is. It's a simple one. And we talk about it in the show all the time. Like my biggest fear, my biggest fear has already happened, right? Jake passed away. The second biggest fear is that people will forget he was here, that forget that he lived. And when someone sends me thinking of you or hey, I saw Cardinal today, it was Jakey or anything like that. I have a friend who just sends me. For all I know, she puts it on a Timer to make sure she sends it, like, once a month. But it doesn't even matter because it comes. And I don't know that she does that, but it's like I get the little cardinal emoji randomly, and it's just in that moment, like, things are light and things are. I'm like, hey, someone's thinking of Jakey. And he is not forgotten. Because I think that is a huge thing with Grievers. Right. We don't want our person to be forgotten.
- [34:41]
B
Yeah. I have a very similar interaction with a handful of friends after my best friend died. I didn't get to talk about this much at the beginning, and it happened a bit later when I was a grief professional. So my grief experience for my best friend who died from COVID in 2022 was very different because I already knew how to give myself permission to grieve. I just had to lean into it. And so being able to lean in all the way right away was such a different experience than. Than grieving my mom. But there's kind of a core group of us who were friends with my best friend Tammy in life. We call ourselves the Love Squad, and our group chat includes, I mean, everything under the sun. Bridgerton, what are you doing for the spring equinox? I mean, look at this cute new haircut. I started doing my own nails. How do you pronounce the store? Aeropostle. Which was a real argument we had because my wife is Canadian and. Is that how you say. My wife says Aeropostale.
- [35:38]
A
I say Aeropostale.
- [35:39]
B
Yeah, you're probably correct because the French way is correct. But I grew up in the American south, and we, pardon me, bastardized everything. So this was a real argument we had in the group chat the other day. I just had a very pronounce it based on rigora. So. But also, this is a group chat where we remember my friend Tammy. And every now and then, someone will just send a picture of a corgi. Like, spotted a corgi out in the wild. And my best friend Tammy called corgis blessings. And so whenever she'd see them, like, walking, she'd go, oh, blessing. And it would cross by on the street and somebody would just say, blessing. Spotting, spotted a blessing. And everyone in the group gets this acknowledgement that we have not forgotten who she is and what she is to us. And it will be going on four years this year that she's been gone. And I feel her absence every single day. And it's one of those I'm here things that happen Sporadically. You can never predict when a corhe will cross your path, but when it does, we all trust that someone's gonna put it in the group and someone's gonna have remembered her. I have similar friends with my mom's death. My mom was a see a penny, pick it up person. And they'll just find pennies and be like, your mom's here and that's it. And your mom's here, and so am I. Like, I'm here too, and it's just a beautiful thing. And of course, I hear right now, I think I write grief shared is grief lightened. And to your point, it's like just the fact that someone else remembers either our person or the fact that we are grieving. Suddenly for 10 seconds of the day, it's just like, ah, I can breathe again because I'm not carrying it by myself. And it makes such a big difference.
- [37:07]
A
And it's like, it gives you a smile, like, you know what I mean? Like, I. And now it's kind of funny. My best friend has a corgi. And now I like when you were saying that, I was kind of like, hey, Tammy, how are you? I mean, it's just. I love, like, spreading that. I love, like, that, you know, the same friend, actually. She always thought of cardinals when her father passed. And then when my son passed, she's like, so every. She loves it every time she sees two. Cause she's like, the first one I see is dad, but the second one is Jake. So she happens to see like two on her, like, backyard or anything. She's like, hey, they're together. And it's all this, like, I don't know. You know, it depends what you believe. It depends all of those things. But there is. There's no downside. And it's just. It's an eat, like you said, an easy lift. And it's just, at least for me, pure joy. When people let me know that they're here and that they remember.
- [38:00]
B
Yeah. Yes, that's exactly right. No downside.
- [38:05]
A
And then the last one right now, this one was the. Is the hardest one for me to wrap my head around because. Just. Because I don't really know why, but it's that idea of reminding people. And especially, you know, when you're in that spiral or in your dark place, whether it's really raw, fresh grief or whether it's just a bad day 15 years later, it's hard to separate yourself as the griever from. From knowing. Even if common sense tells you, but knowing that you're not gonna be in that place forever. And I just love the way you say it. Like. Like right now you feel this way, but it's not going. Like, it's not going to be forever. And that reminder has to be important because I get stuck there. Like, I. I get stuck all the time still, all these years later of like, oh, this is hard, and it's forever hard. And it's just. It's hard.
- [39:00]
B
Yes. Yeah, well. And it's funny, I didn't write about this in the book. I. Thinking back, I should have, but we're a little late for that now. But I did a survey a few years ago of a hundred grieving people and asked them to describe their grief. What's the thing they struggle with the most? What would they most like from grief support? I was building an online grief support course, and so I was like, what do you need the most from me? And I was so surprised because the. The most interesting, like, finding from that survey of a hundred grievers was when I asked how grief made them feel, I was expecting answers like, sad or depressed or lonely or tired, exhausted. It's a big one of mine. And the most frequent answer I got was stuck. Grief makes me feel stuck. And I'm so sick and tired of feeling stuck in grief. And I'm like, oh, there's something here. And I do write about this in the book. There's this myth that we have that because the outcome of the loss is forever, then how we feel must be forever, too. Especially in the case of a death or divorce or diagnosis where it's like, you have been shoved through a doorway by life that you cannot go back through. There is a past and an identity and a self and a relationship and a life that is now no longer available to you. You cannot go back the way you came. And there's immense, immense grief and pain in that. And so this story of my life will be like this forever is inspired by all these grievers who've come to me through years of, like, I'm stuck in grief, and I cannot see a way out from here. And the phrase right now is something that I developed as a part of this course that I was building, and we use it together when we do grief coaching together as, like, me and my little cohort of students online. But especially for people who are, for example, like, struggling with sleep after the death of a parent, it's like, I will never get a good night of sleep again. This extremist language, or I will always be this despairing about this death or I'll never find love again or loss has changed absolutely everything about my life. A statement of validation without saying. Because I never want to contradict the reality. If they say it's going to be like this forever, I never want to come in and say, it won't always be like this forever. No, it won't. No, it's not.
- [41:06]
A
Blah, blah, blah.
- [41:06]
B
Lift you up out of the. My job's not to lift you up out of the mud. No comforter's job is to lift a griever out of the mud. So how do you go meet them down in. It is you sit in the mud with them and look around and say, yep, right now this feels like garbage. Right now. I can totally see how sleep feels impossible for you to achieve right now. It makes sense to me. I'm combining right now. And of course right now it makes sense to me that the dating pool does not look attractive to you right now. I can. I can totally understand why you would be afraid or against for you having more kids when this was the outcome of one of your children's lives. That does nothing to say. And it won't always be this way. I'm flinging people out of the mud. Visually, if you're watching this on YouTube, it won't always be this way. You know, and the future is better and onward and upward. It's none of that. You are not shoveling mud. You are not moving anything around in their environment. You are just giving them the acknowledgement that this is hard. And just the prepositional phrase right now, in this season, for the time being, in this chapter, in this moment, that framing, even if they don't recognize it is a doorway of possibility into. It won't always be like this. The future can be different because life inherently always gets different. You might feel a different thing 10 minutes from now, but you're not saying any of that. You just say right now X is true. Well, I love also supporting thing that
- [42:39]
A
it's not the job of any comforters to take you out of the mud. Like, I love that you just said that because I think that is a weight that people put on themselves. Like. Like my job is to make so and so feel better because this happened and it's not. And I think that that is even freeing in itself if people are listening to this because that's why you get so wrapped up or why I think people like why I would or other people you get so wrapped up into what is the right thing to say. Because you're thinking that your job is to make it better. And I always say the job is not to make it better. You know, and when people would say, oh, I didn't want to bring up Jay because I didn't want to make you upset, I would, like, roll my eyes because I would say, you know, you're not reminding me my son died. Like, I remember that. You're not, you know, I didn't forget. But by bringing him up, you're. You're reminding me that you remembered he lived. And that's much more. You know, it's not. I think comforters have to take this unnecessary pressure off themselves that their job is to fix the person or make them. You know, your job is to be there, validate, and offer. Like you said, kind of. I like your kind of analogy of like, you're not taking them out of the mud, you're meeting them in the mud. Because that's where you're helpful. You are much more helpful.
- [43:59]
B
And a lot of people are like, I did an interview earlier this morning, and the man who was interviewing me said, I think a lot of people are afraid to comfort someone who's grieving, even with these phrases, because they're afraid then of what the response will be. So if you say, right now, I can see how getting sleep is really elusive to you. Like, a good night's sleep is just not coming, I can see how that's true for you in that season. A lot of times, the response that a griever will have to something like that is like, yeah, it is. Thank you for seeing that. Instead of, you just need to try essence of lavender on your pillow. Or you just need to take magnesium. Usually the response is not necessarily a trauma dumping or a sobbing into your shoulder or a deepening of the conversation. Usually the response is, thank you for seeing me. Thank you for sitting in the mud with me. Thank you for not propelling me somewhere I don't have the energy or the capacity to go. And even if the response is not gratitude, because grievers don't need to be grateful to everyone who tries to comfort them. That's not what I'm saying. What I want to assuage comforters of is this fear of, like, you're gonna have to go deeper into their emotions. You're gonna have to mind their heart. For all of the trauma and the tears and the backstory, you're probably not gonna have to do that. When you say, of course you'd be upset that someone you don't really like is pregnant. They get, they're like, oh, so I'm not being ridiculous. Thank you so much for seeing that.
- [45:22]
A
Well, and you said it like they feel seen, right? Because that's the other thing, you know, and that's the whole big, like, I'm alone, but I. You don't feel like anybody. You already feel alone. You feel like nobody understands what you're feeling, which then evolves into like, okay, I'm crazy because I'm all alone in these feelings. And we're not looking for another therapist. We're not looking for someone to fix us. We're not looking for magic. We're just looking to be seen and heard and, I don't know, seen. Right? Like, you just like validated, like, we are not. So I, I just think, I think these. It's moving away from like the platitudes. It's moving away from the things that people say because they've always been said. And again, like, I don't necessarily think when people say them, they mean bad things, but you know, what's the whole thing? Like, if you know better, do better. Right? So now we are giving people like vehicles and words and ways of which we could do better for ourselves, for our friends, for whoever we cross paths with.
- [46:28]
B
Right.
- [46:30]
A
I just, and I do love, and I want to stress this for like people who. And at the end, we'll make sure everyone knows where to get the book, where it can be pre ordered and all those things. But I love that it has, I don't know that the word workbook is the right phrase, but it's like, it
- [46:47]
B
is, it's kind of. It's a guide. It's a little guidebook.
- [46:49]
A
I mean, I feel like I'm like showing my age. I'm like, it's a workbook. But it gives you like practice and scripts and ways to think about it. Because no matter how like you make it seem so easy because these are your words, but for people, it gives you kind of like practice it. And I love that because people will always be nervous, right? Like, people will always be afraid of saying the wrong thing. But if you like anything else that's important to you, if you give it thought and time and effort, it will come naturally.
- [47:19]
B
I'm going to take your segue on practice right now because I still have to practice. And I spend, when I'm not writing great books, I spend four days a week as a floral designer at a flower shop. And part of that job is being a central part of people's weddings, people's baby showers, people's retirement parties, and people's funerals. And we get phone calls every single week for people who are ordering memorial flowers. And the joke around the shop is just put Shelby on the phone because she knows how to talk about grief. But even when people are asking, I had a customer the other week say, I'm ordering flowers for my brother who died. And she was absolutely torn up over the phone because she's like, his wife chose to cremate him, which is against our religion, and to keep him with them in another state. And so she was like, we do not have access to a body. You know, you get all this information over the phone. It's like, ma', am, I'm just trying to do my job. But like, she's like, we don't have access to his body. So we want the flowers to be a stand in for who he was as a person. And so questions I almost always go to are, you know, did he have a favorite flower? Did he have a favorite sports team? Did he have a favorite car or truck that he drove that he was obsessed with that we can commemorate in some way? And so we got all this information. And I was thinking, because I always had these phrases in my head, now, of course, I'm here right now. And so obviously from a customer service profession, I offered, we're here for you. As you navigate through this. We will be with you as you remember him is another way of saying that. And I also offered something like, right now I can see how overwhelming this is for you to try and make this decision after just having learned of his death. He died very suddenly. And of course, this would be a hard phone call to make. And thank you for trusting us with this. Like, in just a couple of sentences, I used all of those things to address her grief without saying it will get better with time or saying nothing at all about her grief and saying, thanks for your money. Kay. Bye. Like, there are so many ways. And this is why I stress this book is not just for friends and family members, although it is for them. It's also for helping professionals. School soccer coaches, massage therapists, hairdressers. If you are in any profession where you interact with any person ever, or if you are a person who interacts with any person ever, you will come across people who are grieving. Lyft drivers, servers at restaurants. Like, everyone is adjacent to someone who is grieving all the time. And words just change how that goes.
- [49:42]
A
And it comes back to that early statistic, right? Like, we are surrounded by people in stages of grief all the time. And just being aware of that and handling that, I think is just not handling it, but that's the wrong word. But like, being aware of it just can be changing. It can be changing for ourselves and sort of the tools and in which we interact with others, but also for the people we're interacting with. I'm so glad you brought up because that was kind of where I was going next because I do love this idea and we talk to a lot of different people on the show in different kind of jobs. And not that a florist is necessarily a grief related job, but I think of it as that way, like, and as you mentioned, you do it with their happiest days, but you're also like this. I'm sure you get phone calls all the time of people calling and you. They. They unleash their stories with you because they are calling at a time, especially around loss, where like, you don't even know. I remember just talking to people being like, okay, well this happened and, and I need flowers. You know, like, and what do. Like. Because you don't quite know how to. You're still processing it and you're. I don't know. I know at least in my time, like, my boundaries, I had like in, in deep, early grief, your boundaries are kind of gray. Like, you don't really know. So I could give my life story to someone. You know, the caterer that is doing the after party. Like, you know, even these people.
- [51:06]
B
Exactly.
- [51:07]
A
You know, you're just so. I, I kind of love that this other career of yours is this, like. It's sort of like a symbolic overlap with, with. With your grief work. And I would think that, well, I don't know, like all of your life moments in your writing and all of these things have, like, you have to be good at your job because of it. Like, I mean, I'm making it sort of all connected, but I do. And I kind of love that everyone at the store is like, oh, hey, give this one to Shelby. But it's like the ways that we can make a difference for people when you least expect it.
- [51:46]
B
Yes. And gosh, I think it was WSPU grief or WSPU grief a few years ago. I can. I always invert two of the letters, but they're the folks who created the documentary Speaking Grief did a panel a few years ago and it was basically about like a florist, a barber and a funeral director or something like that walk into a room. And it was about how all of these Service professionals have interactions with grieving people on a regular basis. And so, like, what do you say and how do you support them? And I don't necessarily want to build myself up on some pedestal of, like, I'm the best at taking the grief calls at the workplace. Because what I also try and do, and my grief work does make me good at this job is help the people who work with me also learn these scripts. And so whether somebody says, like, we're sending a sympathy bouquet to the house of one of our good regulars who just lost their baby, and what flower should we include to make it symbolic? Or we're getting to tie in, like, a grandmother's tiny photo onto the stem of a bridal bouquet for a wedding so she can keep her grandmother with her as we walk down the aisle. I may not be there for that event. Maybe it's our owner going out or one of our other floral assistants, but even offering them these three little phrases to say. It's like, right now, I know you will feel her spirit with you, or, I'm here as you put together this wedding to honor whoever. Or, of course, you would want your grandmother with you on your wedding day. That's such a beautiful thing to say. Instead of, everything happens for a reason, or, I know God needed another angel and she's watching over you today. You could say any other thing in that moment that's a platitude about grief, but these instead, they just feel so much more in our society. They feel authentic. They feel genuine. They don't feel forced. And they're also so much more personal to what the person who is grieving is going through. It's not sorry for your loss, which could be about anyone or anything. It is, of course, you would want your grandmother at your wedding, which is
- [53:45]
A
such a different experience, because that is, you know, one of the things we talk about all the time and that I personally sort of live by is this whole, like, you know, two things can be true idea, right? Like, we hold deep grief at the same time that we can hold deep joy and these meet people there, right? Because it's not just the, oh, heaven, you know, got an angel or. Or any of those things. This is actually saying, like, you know, of course you'd want your grandmother with you on this big, beautiful day, and. And we're glad we can help you get there. You know, like, it's. It's.
- [54:18]
B
It's.
- [54:18]
A
It's addressing these moments of great joy and great grief altogether. And I just, I love the work you're doing. I love the way that you are making it accessible. Right? Like it's accessible. It's these phrases, and it's just. It's not the same old saying. It's not the. It's like a modern take on how we can actually be helpful, how we can actually show people that we're here and that it won't be this way forever. And I just. Those, as a griever, those are things that I always need to be reminded of. I need to be reminded that I have people in my world, and I need to be reminded on the dark days that it's right now, it's not forever. So I'm appreciative for the work you're doing, Shelby. I think it's hugely helpful. I have found it helpful, and I'm just grateful that you have done this. Can you tell us where to find the book? When the book. I think by the time this airs, the book will be out, but can you share all of your stuff?
- [55:26]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I tell people because Grief Brain is real. I keep it short. So everything ever that I do, including this book, is it shall beforsythia.com and of course, I'm here right now. Three actually helpful things to say to someone grieving is coming out March 31st. So if it's after March 31st, guess what? Go get it. It's everywhere. It's everywhere before you can pre order.
- [55:48]
A
Yeah.
- [55:49]
B
Yes. If it's before you can pre order. If it's out, go get it. And if nothing else, if for whatever reason, you can't afford the book, something that's so helpful as an author is to request it at your local library, and then it gets out to hundreds, maybe even thousands of people in your neighborhood or to request it at your local bookstore, just ask them to stock it. You may not commit to buying it, but just ask them to stock it, and that way it will get to the hands and the hearts and the ears. There is an audiobook coming with my voice, reading it of the people who really need to have it, which is all of us.
- [56:19]
A
Absolutely. Thank you so much for being a guest on the show. I have enjoyed talking to you, and I. I look forward to practicing and using these, because I do say this to people all the time. Like, even those of us who are deep in grief, we don't always. We still have that same, like, freeze. Oh, my God. I'm gonna say the right thing, like, even when I know better, but these are really. These are wonderful tools. And I'm. I'm grateful for you, so thank you.
- [56:45]
B
Yes, they will. One of these will always help. Whichever it is, just keep them in your brain. They will always help. Thank you so much, Heather. I'm really grateful to have been here today too.
- [56:53]
A
Thank you for listening to A Place of Yes. I hope today's conversation brought you comfort, connection, maybe even a little bit of hope. If it did, I'd love for you to subscribe and share this episode with someone who might need it to see you next time on A Place of Yes.