Catherine & Naomi on job sharing & diversity in national security

Summary

Podcast Summary: Catherine & Naomi on Job Sharing & Diversity in National Security

Podcast: A Podcast of One’s Own with Julia Gillard
Episode Title: Catherine & Naomi on job sharing & diversity in national security
Release Date: October 29, 2025
Host: Julia Gillard, Founder and Chair, Global Institute for Women’s Leadership
Guests: Catherine & Naomi, Senior UK National Security Civil Servants and Long-term Job Share Partners

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Julia Gillard sits down with Catherine and Naomi, two high-ranking civil servants in the UK's national security community. The discussion centers on their unique job-sharing arrangement, gender and class diversity within national security, career progression as working mothers, and the realities of national security work compared to spy fiction. This episode illuminates the lived experiences and insights of women who have thrived in a traditionally male-dominated and secretive field, with a specific exploration of flexible work models and diversity in leadership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introductions and Upbringings

• Catherine’s Background

  • Grew up in a small, socially mobile family in northern Scotland.
  • Felt like an outlier at home (more “artsy”) and at her average state school, struggled with confidence and "learned not to speak up" (04:04).
  • “I was just trying to keep working hard so that I could keep up with everyone else.” (04:04)

• Naomi’s Background

  • Raised near London, both parents worked in the NHS.
  • Strong ethic of public service and early political engagement (wrote letters to her MP as a child) (05:16).
  • Attended an all-girls school, later switched to a mixed sixth-form college.

First Encounters with Gender Dynamics

• Delayed Awareness of Gender Inequality
  • Catherine: Didn’t feel gendered experiences until entering the workforce. "If I just work really hard, people will notice me and see that I'm doing well ... I realized there was something that I wasn't doing [and] that was when the game came into it." (06:44)
  • Naomi: Noticed differences during sixth form (excluded from rugby team and a volunteer trip because she was a girl), but most acutely after having children and working part time: “You're just at a bit of a disadvantage if you’re not there all the time.” (08:45)

National Security Careers & Values

• Pop Culture vs. Reality

  • Julia frames the national security stereotype: “Movies... have given us James Bond, the most enduring spy stereotype.” (01:43)
  • Catherine: Grew up loving Bond films, but only realized in her government career what the real work entailed—driven by “a really strong sense of mission and purpose ... it’s not always easy to know what the right thing to do is.” (16:10)
  • Naomi: Entered national security via public service; learned the field needed people with diverse perspectives and values (11:57).

• Paths into National Security

  • Catherine: International experiences through university led to a government traineeship, then national security.
  • Naomi: Deepened understanding of complexity through first role in Iraq post-Saddam Hussein—"the world's a lot more complicated ... a really good avenue into all sorts of interesting jobs." (11:57)

Realities for Women & Diversity in National Security

• Underrepresentation & Perceptions

  • "There are more men that work in the national security community than women" (20:12).
  • Barriers flagged: fear of danger, lack of flexibility, and culture fit.

• Voice, Accent, and Inclusion

  • Catherine discusses accent and class challenges: "My Scottish accent was much stronger before I moved to London ... I have subconsciously changed the way that I speak and tried to sound like everyone else.” (23:18)
  • Naomi highlights the importance of diversity: "Otherwise we're not going to be making the right decisions." (25:05)

The Job Share: Structure, Challenges, and Strengths

• How it Began

  • Naomi started job sharing after her twins, and after an initial partner left, reached out to Catherine, who had just returned from maternity leave (26:56).

• Why It Works

  • Their partnership built on trust, excellent communication, and zero internal competition: "We succeed or fail together, we can't compete with each other ... you have to trust each other implicitly." (30:30)
  • Job sharing provides built-in challenge and coaching: "You get to share those difficult judgments as well." (34:30)
  • Power-sharing as leadership: “Ultimately, it's about sharing power and if you don't share that power with the other person, you do not succeed.” (31:50)

• External Perceptions

  • Early skepticism ("...whether we'd be taken seriously... particularly as two part time women"), but their success changed minds (20:12, 30:30).
  • Successfully applied jointly for multiple roles and promotions (29:34).

Leadership, Progress, and Pipeline

• Women Leaders in Intelligence
  • Julia highlights recent and groundbreaking women leaders (MI6 and ASIS first female heads) (35:13).
  • Catherine: “We have to make sure that the people coming up, the best people are coming up, and it doesn't matter what they look like.” (37:05)
  • Naomi: The new female MI6 Chief is "a real innovator and comes from the tech world...sends a really powerful message." (38:21)

Work-Life Balance and Personal Interests

• Books and Hobbies

  • Catherine: Enjoys spy novels, recommends David McCloskey’s Damascus Station and Edith and Kim by Charlotte Philby (39:46).
  • Also serves on the UK Parole Board – a different public service role (40:41).
  • Naomi: Avid Le Carre reader; relaxes with year-round cold-water swimming at Hampstead Heath (41:54, 42:19).

• On Cultural Differences in Intelligence

  • “There are differences in the way that Brits and Americans approach things...but despite the differences, we always manage to find, or nearly always manage to find common ground.” (43:08)
  • Both have worked with Australian colleagues; appreciate both commonality and unique perspectives (43:36).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On being overlooked despite hard work:
  “I thought, work hard, you'll get noticed. That was not happening and others, typically men, would be getting these opportunities.”
  – Catherine, 06:44

• On challenging stereotypes and inclusion:
  “For most of us, you can get the fun and excitement without actually putting yourself in danger or using any of the gadgets … you don't want to put off a diverse range of people joining the national security community because they’re worried it's going to be dangerous.”
  – Naomi, 17:50

• On job sharing and power:
  “If you don't share that power with the other person, you do not succeed. That’s quite a tricky thing to do.”
  – Catherine, 31:50

• On professionalism and gendered meetings:
  “There’s sometimes a tendency to self-limit, not put yourself forward for something … we were both a bit skeptical about whether we’d be taken seriously ... as two part-time women. And we really were...”
  – Catherine, 01:16, expanded in 20:12

• On class, accent and workplace culture:
  “I have subconsciously changed the way that I speak and tried to sound like everyone else, and I kind of wish I hadn't done that.”
  – Catherine, 23:18

• On women as leaders:
  “Having a woman as your external face ... sends a really powerful message, both for the recruitment purposes, but also ... to parts of the world where women have fewer rights.”
  – Naomi, 38:21

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:04] Catherine’s early life and school experiences
• [05:16] Naomi’s childhood and political engagement
• [06:44] When gender differences first became apparent
• [11:57] Motivations for joining the national security community (Naomi and Catherine)
• [16:10] Stereotypes vs. reality of intelligence work
• [20:12] Gender imbalances and why job sharing is rare
• [23:18] Accents, class, and adapting to workplace culture
• [25:05] Importance of diversity in national security
• [26:56] How their job share began and evolved
• [30:30] Making a job share partnership thrive
• [34:30] Power-sharing and challenging decisions in job sharing
• [35:13] Women breaking leadership barriers in intelligence agencies
• [37:05] Nurturing the pipeline for women in national security
• [39:46] Personal favourites: spy novels & leisure activities
• [43:08] Cross-national intelligence co-operation and differences
• [43:36] Experiences working with Australian colleagues

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Summary

This episode offers a candid, often humorous, and deeply insightful look at the theme of gender, diversity, and flexible working in national security. Catherine and Naomi share the story of their job share—highlighting the practicalities, mutual trust, and emotional intelligence needed to succeed as a duo in a male-dominated environment. They discuss how the realities of intelligence work differ from stereotypes, the importance of supportive leadership and diverse perspectives, and steps for building more inclusive pathways for future leaders. This conversation, peppered with book recommendations and reflections on personal balance, will speak to anyone interested in gender equality, public service, or the realities behind the secretive world of national security.

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For more podcasts like this, follow “A Podcast of One’s Own with Julia Gillard,” brought to you by the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership.

Transcript

[Catherine]

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[Catherine]

There'S sometimes a tendency to self limit, not put yourself forward for something. And I mean I think that both Naomi and I were bit skeptical about whether we'd be taken seriously in this community to start off with, particularly as two part time women. And we really were because we lent in and said well, we're prepared to make this work and work really, really hard and provide that kind of like, you know, end to end service where we're really delivering something.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Welcome back to a Podcast of One's own. This episode is a little unusual because you'll hear from two guests who work in the UK's national security community. Currently they work in the UK Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office and they are unaccustomed to the limelight. They are also both mums and in long term job share. Now what do I mean by the national security community? Well, in Australia it would include the Department of Foreign affairs and Trade, the Department of Defence and the Australian Federal Police. There's also asio, the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation, which is responsible for collecting intelligence and keeping us safe from threats at home. And asis, the Australian Secret Intelligence Service, which does that kind of work but focuses on threats outside Australia. Then there is oni, the Office of National Intelligence, which synthesises material into assessments. The Australian Signals Directorate, which collects intelligence and focuses on cyber security. And there are a variety of smaller agencies too. In the uk, there's a similarly broad national security community, which includes departments like the Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office, the Treasury and the Ministry of Defence, and others. From movies, you would know the terms MI5 and MI6, Military Intelligence 5, which is the ASIO equivalent, and Military Intelligence 6, which is the ASIS equivalent. And the movies, of course, have given us James Bond, the most enduring spy stereotype. Today I had the privilege of hearing from Catherine and Naomi about the reality for women, not this stereotype. I very much enjoyed this conversation. I was completely intrigued by it and I hope you enjoy it too. Catherine and Naomi, welcome to a podcast of one's own. Let's start by learning a bit about each of you. Let's start with hearing a little bit about your life growing up. Katherine, do you want to tell us about your life growing up?

[Catherine]

Sure. And thank you very much for having us.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

You're very welcome.

[Catherine]

So I grew up in a small town in the north of Scotland to, I guess I'd describe them as a socially mobile family. My folks were very bright and aspirational and hard working and they were keen that my brother and I had similar drive and values too. So my brother and I dutifully did that. We worked hard, we lived in a town which is very pretty and I went to a pretty average state school where there was a range of people from all different backgrounds and I was quite low confidence at school. I learned not to speak up because I was, I guess, one of the brighter ones. And I was a bit. If you spoke up, you basically made yourself a target. Everyone else in my family as well had more of a scientific mind. So I was a bit of an outlier in the sense of being a little bit more to the artsy side. And so that was a bit differentiating. And I was also felt like the dunce of the family. My brother was off the scale, is off the scale, intelligent. And so I was just trying to keep working hard so that I could keep up with everyone else. So.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Terrific. And Naomi, what about you?

[Naomi]

Yeah, I had a lovely childhood. Grew up small family just outside London. My parents worked for the nhs, so had a strong kind of work ethic and a real sense of public service, which I think has sort of given me a strong sense of that as well. Didn't have a lot of money, but had had a quite a lot of good sense of culture in our family and quite a lot of political interest, I think, which has probably also informed my career choices. I remember I used to write lots of letters to my MP complaining About various various things, homelessness, environment, animal rights, all sorts of things.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Even as a kid you'd write to.

[Naomi]

The mp, I still got the letters that he wrote back.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Let me tell you, from an MP's perspective, there is nothing more terrifying than either a letter from a child or even worse if you're at a public meeting and a child asks a question because they always ask the kind of naive ones, which are often the hardest ones, things like how much do you earn? So I love that, that you were writing letters as a kid.

[Naomi]

Absolutely. I went to an all girls school which I think I found a bit of an odd place. I took myself out actually for sixth form college and took myself to a mixed sixth form. I loved camping, outdoors, adventures, but also curling up with a book.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Now let's just dive a little bit into any gender dynamics. You know the first time that you thought to yourself, I reckon boys get treated differently to girls, Catherine, was that perhaps in your family, you comparing yourself with your brother or. Not really.

[Catherine]

Not really, to be honest. And for me the gender differences didn't really appear until I was in the workplace because through school and through university there was like, it felt to me that there was objective standards, like if I worked hard, I would be marked and I would be, I would be evaluated the same as the boys. And at school it was a mixed school, a co ed school. I mean boys obviously behave differently to girls in class and there was obviously the different, the kind of quieter and the rowdier of the sections. And the same with university. I mean in my year at university there was many more girls than boys. So I didn't feel any difference at all. But when I entered the workplace I really, that was when I noticed the difference because I kept the same kind of ethic of okay, if I just work really hard, people will notice me and see that I'm doing well and opportunities will blossom from there. And after a while I started to realize that was not happening and others, typically men, would be getting these opportunities and I realized there was something that I wasn't doing. And that was when the game kind of came into it for the first time of, you know what you need to actually be like presenting and selling what you're doing on a day to day basis. And that's a bit of getting the opportunities. It's that kind of network and that understanding of the soft skills outside of the actual main task. And I've got to say I was incredibly naive that that mattered. I genuinely thought, work hard, you'll get noticed.

[Naomi]

That's Exactly.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Interesting.

[Catherine]

Like that.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Yeah. I think lots of women would really, really relate to what you've just said and not realizing how important mentoring, networking, the sort of shadow things behind the formal assessments really matter so much for opportunities. And Naomi, what about you? Was it this girls school, co ed school shift that first sort of put it in your head that there's a gender divide or did that come later for you too?

[Naomi]

Yeah. So I suppose you're sheltered from it. Being at a girls school, you don't really notice it. And then at sixth form college, I remember two occasions where I felt I was being treated to differently. At sixth form college I tried to join the rugby team. I was told I couldn't because I was a girl. So I set up a girls rugby team, then found that I was not a good rugby player. So I swiftly left, but I'd set it up. And secondly, I was doing a gap year after A levels and my brother's school, which is an all boys school, the teacher there was organizing a group of boys to go to Romania to work in an orphanage. This was in 1993. And I wrote a letter and said could I go as well? And they said, no, it's not suitable for a girl. So I wrote back and said, please could I come and meet with you? And I did and persuaded them to change their mind. But then I think in my career, sort of in later life, the moment when it really hit me was when I had my first child and started working part time and just felt that you're just at a bit of a disadvantage if you're not there all the time and you feel like you're always asking people to cover your work when you're not in the office. So I think navigating children and the busyness of that and working part time and the feeling that you can have that you're not, or the feeling maybe I thought other people had was that you're not quite pulling your weight. That was a big difference. And then I think now I really see it with my children at school. Sadly, I think they have a tougher time and it's almost got worse. And the misogyny that they experience and that teenage boys feel it, feel they feel that they can say things really sexist things with impunity that they wouldn't have said. Actually when I was growing up, I sort of think it's got a bit worse maybe for children than it was for us.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Yeah. Tragically, that's what the research from the Global Institute for Women's Leadership shows, too we are seeing a retrenchment in attitudes in boys and young men, and that was captured very dramatically by the film Adolescence, that everybody's been talking about. So there are things going on. It sounds to me, though, from your stories that you were a bit of a. Maybe not rabble rouser is not exactly the right word, but you had a bit of feminist oomph, you know, to I want a rugby team and why can't I go to the orphanage? Is that how you imagined yourself? You sort of thought of yourself as pushing a girl's rights, women's rights?

[Naomi]

Cause partly. I mean, I pushed lots of causes, so I wasn't just into girls rights. I also wore CND badges, volunteered for Amnesty, went on anti war protests. So I was quite a kind of politically engaged child, I suppose. But definitely the feeling that there was women could do absolutely anything men could do was a very strong part of my sort of upbringing and belief and something I try to instill in my children, particularly my son.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

I'm gonna need mothers bringing up good sons for the future, given some of the things going on. I'm gonna talk to you now about how you got into the national security community. And actually, Naomi, if I can start with you and pull through a thread from your last answer. Many people would think that you can't end up in the national security community if in your youth you've supported, you know, some more progressive causes, particularly the peace movement. Or they might think that if you support those kind of causes, you're not the sort of person who'd want to go into the national security community. And yet you've obviously made the transition. Can you talk to me about that? What motivated you?

[Naomi]

Yeah. So I think as you get older, you realise that things are a little bit more complicated than they seem as a child. And that although I had some, yeah, strong beliefs in peace and stuff, actually the world's a lot more complex. And actually being in the national security community, you can sort of bring your own kind of values to bear in the work that you do. And so I think the first time I sort of got stuck into vaguely national security work was I went to Iraq in 2004, working as a justice adviser, so obviously worked closely with the military. That was just after the fall of Saddam Hussein, so it was all still a bit hairy. And they were just so super impressive. And they weren't at all like the impression that I'd had of the kind of military growing up. They were actually just wonderful people doing a really amazing job. So I think when you see things from a different side and a different perspective. You realise that actually the world's a lot more complicated and there's a lot of really good people doing really good things. And the wonderful thing about working in the civil service is the opportunities that you get to do crazy things like go to Iraq for a few months. So I think it's a really good avenue into all sorts of interesting jobs.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

I've had the privilege of working with fantastic, we would say in Australia, public servants rather than civil servants, but I've had the joy of working with fantastic people. So, yes, you're absolutely right. Amazing people with a real sense of service to their nation. I think describing being in Iraq just after the fall of Saddam Hussein is a little bit hairy might be the understatement of this podcast so far. But, Catherine, tell me, what took you onto this national security community kind of work?

[Catherine]

So, I mean, I was completely oblivious to both government work, being a lawyer and national security. When I was growing up in the north of Scotland, it was fairly remote, but I loved watching James Bond films and it was a coping mechanism. My mother said, when we moved from one part of Scotland to another part of Scotland, from remote to even remoter, and my brother and I, we just literally watched them all and we're completely oblivious, obviously, to the misogyny. And it was just very good entertainment. I mean, I became so familiar with them that I've won a fair few quizzes in the national security community. Now, due to my James Bond knowledge.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

I'm holding myself back from asking you to sing a few of the theme songs.

[Catherine]

Nobody does it better. But, I mean, it was all very much beyond my ken. I mean, I do feel like I had quite a narrow a field of view when I was younger. But university changed all that. I mean, I went to University at 17. No one did gap years at my school. You went straight. So I was very young. And then all of a sudden I was in a university with a lot of people who were a lot older than me because they had taken years out. And so I was like, oh, what's going on here? And then speaking and making new friends. My sphere of reference expanded and I became aware of all these opportunities. I did a summer school learning French, I did random sailing trips across the North Sea and tall ships. And eventually, basically, it led to me doing a stint in the European Commission. I did a traineeship for six months, which I'd heard about from Somer University, and I thought, that sounds amazing. And it really led me to the path of Government, because all of a sudden I was in this group of 20 year olds who were all from across the European Union, but they were very similar to me, aspirationally, motivationally, values wise. And I mean, it was just inspiring. And that was the thing that really led me into government because it was, I wanted to have that international focus. And so government, Foreign office, the national security community beckoned after that.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

And when you got into the national security community, I mean, you've mentioned James Bond and you know, if you asked anybody to come up with the globe stereotype, it would be James Bond. And of course we're all waiting as they search for the new Bond and working out who that's going to be getting our bets on. But something tells me it's not really like that, am I right?

[Catherine]

I mean, they're great fun, right? But it's not, it's not realistic. But I mean, that's what the movies does, right? I mean, the film the Accountant I can't imagine looks very much like the day to day role of an accountant. So I would, I would say it's in a similar, similar vein. But one thing that is common, I think on a serious note is, I mean in those films the people always portray a really strong sense of mission and purpose. Like it matters. Working in national security, it's such a responsibility, I mean, to Naomi's point, about values and doing the right thing and trying, trying to do the right thing. And it's, it's, it's not always easy to know what the right thing to do is, but it's, it's an amazing motivator to work and within a mission which has that purpose. And I think that does come out in the fiction. But that would be the small kernel of truth that I would pick on in a sea of much more glamorous, glamorous scenes than I've certainly seen in my day to day job.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

I mostly can't watch political shows because it's so not like real life. I always feel like saying to the actors, you know, what about the scene where the Prime Minister's at her desk for 12 hours doing paperwork? You know, when's that scene gonna come along? Though? I have to confess, a secret dark pleasure of mine is watching old episodes of the Thick of It. That's the only one I would routinely watch. And of course, yes, Minister really gave us new language and new ways of thinking about public service, civil service. But what about you, Naomi? How far from the stereotype is it? You're not gonna get some incredible gadget out of your handbag now, are you?

[Naomi]

No, sadly not. Although, I mean, I always loved the spy novels and spy films as well. I mean, there are some people genuinely do dangerous stuff in hostile countries or whether there's where there's a terrorism threat. But for most people who join the national security community, you don't have to do that. That's a choice. And for most of us, you can kind of get the fun and the excitement of it without actually having to put yourself in danger or use any of the gadgets. I think it's a really important point to make because you don't want to put a diverse, put off a diverse range of people joining the national security community because they're worried that it's going to be dangerous. It's not for the most part, but there is, as Katherine said, that sense of mission and purpose. And I think the fact that you can't talk about your job to friends and family outside, there's quite a good sense of camaraderie within the community as well, which makes it a really nice place to work. And for the most part, people are in the office. You can't really do your job from home, which also adds to that sense of community.

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[Host (Julia Gillard)]

I think another stereotype, I mean, there's the James Bond action figure stereotype. I guess another stereotype has been the George Smiley, John Le Carre novels. You know, the very mild mannered but Svengali who can get all of the threads of information and somehow see a complete picture that evades everybody else. But even though that's a very different stereotype, still male stereotypes. So how gendered did you find it? You, Catherine, when describing, you know, the first time that it really hit you that men and women perhaps behaved differently, were treated differently was on your entry into this workforce. Can you reflect on that? How gendered is it? How have you found it?

[Catherine]

I mean, I don't think we can escape from the fact that there are more men that work in the national security community than women. And it is because of Some of those perceptions, Naomi's flagged one, the perception of danger, I think that puts women off. The perception of lack of flexibility, I think that puts women off as well. But I mean, I don't think it necessarily needs to be like that. I mean Naomi and I work in a job share and that brings with it a resilience and ability to basically cover issues in a much broader way. But it does require that kind of perception change because there's push and pull factors here. I mean working, it's very interesting work, it's very competitive, getting into the national security community and if you're self limiting yourself and often, I mean, I'm not going to say that all women do it, but there's sometimes a tendency to self limit, not put yourself forward for something. And I mean I think that both Naomi and I were bit skeptical about whether we'd be taken seriously in this community to start off with, particularly as two part time women. And we really were because we lent in and said, well, we're prepared to make this work and work really, really hard and provide that kind of like, you know, end to end service where we're really delivering something. But I mean the reality is it's still not equal. And so you do have that gendered, you have those gendered meetings where perhaps some of the stereotypes come out and it's the, you need to figure out how to make your voice heard in a room where people sound different. And for me, I mean Naomi and I have been very, very fortunate. We've been on a number of really useful training courses together both in leadership and in impact and learning how to use your voice so it doesn't kind of have a tremor. So it has impact. Being really punchy with what you say, intervening early, I find all those things now I go through my mind when I'm in a, in a meeting which is very male dominated and it maybe it's just my imagination or my perception, but it does always seem that the men find it slightly easier to talk off the cuff. But I mean it's a very kind of impressionistic thing to say that. I wouldn't say that all men have complete confidence but if you're in a room where you're the minority, it can feel like you're on the back foot a little bit. So I've developed this way of kind of trying to make sure that I do have that impact.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

I'm just going to follow up on this question of voice because we're in the UK recording this podcast and this is the Land of accents. And I'd have to say with my Australian ear, I'm not that good at working out where people are from. You know, I always have to say, oh, you know, and then they say, oh, I'm from Liverpool or something, but I wouldn't have picked it myself, which part of the uk. But I know that there's a lot of sensitivity about accents and how they speak, I guess, to class and who's, you know, in the sort of posh circles. Is that a dynamic too?

[Catherine]

It is a dynamic. And I've got to say, I mean, I'm Scottish. My Scottish accent was much stronger before I moved to London. When I go back to the north now and I'm with my family, they all take the mick out of me because they're like, what's happened to you? You don't sound like you're used to Catherine. And you know what I mean? I don't. And there are some people who do have managed to keep their accent and I'm very impressed with the fact that they've been able to do that because I have subconsciously changed the way that I speak and tried to sound like everyone else and tried to adapt to the surroundings, and I kind of wish I hadn't done that. But it wasn't. I don't think it was a conscious choice. But it's only now that there's so much more of a conversation about social mobility these days and just that understanding of belonging and inclusion and how it makes you feel and the impacts it can have on your decisions than there used to be 20 years ago. I think that's a really good thing because it allows people to then bring their whole self to work and talk about their background as a positive. And it can sometimes feel, if you're not from a terribly glamorous background, not a positive to talk about that. So you camouflage. And that's certainly what I did when I joined the civil service, the government, and it certainly did feel like that to me. It was a different system of rules and behaviours and culture, which it took me a while to conform to and understand.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

And what would you say, Naomi, and I might ask you too, to just reflect gender diversity that you've seen, but other forms of diversity, because I would imagine, and I know we've had these debates in Australia, that you want your national security community to reflect your diverse population and there's a real strength in that.

[Naomi]

Absolutely. It's completely mission critical for the government and the national security community to have a diverse range of voices around the table. Otherwise we're not going to be making the right decisions or taking into account all the right factors. And we're not there yet. So we are still underrepresented with women, people from ethnic minorities, people from low socioeconomic backgrounds and people with disabilities. And I think there's a particular low representation in relation to people from low socioeconomic backgrounds and women. And that is distinct from the rest of the civil service where it's got much better. So there is still an issue and we need to get better at bringing people in and then also bringing them on and enabling them to be their best version of themselves and feel that their voice is valued and heard around the table. But yeah, I still go into meetings where it's predominantly mentioned if not all men around the table or certainly men in the kind of main decision making roles. And those meetings feel different from meetings I go into where there's a better gender split. And I feel quite a sense of responsibility actually to make sure I am speaking up at those meetings and getting my voice heard because otherwise I think it can go down a really different path and you can end up with a really different decision.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

I want to talk to you now very directly about the job share and how you found each other to do that and structured that job share. I mean, we're talking about women in the national security community, but job shares are still, you know, not that common. Even in very stereotypical, you know, jobs, you know, banks or airlines or even universities, you know, job sharing, it's not like it's a commonly used way of managing work and family life. And yet in this very different environment, you found each other and it's not only worked, it's worked for quite a long time. So can you tell me about that?

[Naomi]

Yeah, so. So we've been job sharing for, I think 12 years, probably longer than most marriages community does feel like. But. So I've got four children, I started working, I started working part time after my first daughter was born and found it quite tough to do for a four day week. You basically feel like you're just getting paid for four days but working five. And then I was on maternity leave with my twins and bumped into a colleague who said, when you come back, do you want to do a job share? And I'd never really heard about the idea of a job share before. I was like, yes, that sounds great. So I started job sharing with her and she then went off to become a social worker. I don't think it was connected to us job sharing. We had a very Happy job share. And then I slightly panicked actually, because I thought, I really don't want to stop. This job share thing is so brilliant. It's so much better than working on your own part time. I don't want to stop. So I rang Catherine, who was a colleague but on maternity leave at the time, and said, do you want a job share when you come back for maternity leave? And luckily she said yes.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

I just want to put a pin in. We've talked earlier about James Bond and male images of courage, but I do think we should note going back for child number four after having child number one and then twins. I think that's a definition of courage in itself.

[Catherine]

But it's interesting because weirdly enough I had my second and when Naomi had her fourth and so for the job share, it worked out perfectly. Odd conversation.

[Naomi]

Kathleen said, oh, I really need to tell you that I'm pregnant, so I'm going to be going on maternity leave. And I was like, oh, great.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

So am I well coordinated?

[Catherine]

See how well coordinated our team were?

[Naomi]

Pretty. It was quite odd as we both kind of greedy, enormous tummies at the same time.

[Catherine]

No, but it's worked really well, our job share. But I mean, I have to say, look, you need to find the right person. And we were fortunate in the sense that we'd worked together before and we knew we had compatible work styles. I think only later did we realize how compatible when we went on the leadership course together and we kind of saw that we actually had similar personality profiles. They're a little bit dissimilar as well, so that helped. But applying for jobs as a job share, I've got to say it's not easy because you have to each be individually interviewed because you need to individually be good enough for the job and so you have this pressure on you that you wouldn't have as an individual person, which is I can completely torpedo my job shares chance of getting this job by doing badly myself. And so it puts an extra pressure on it. But the benefit of course is you've got two minds working on one pitch and I think that has helped. But we have applied successfully. We're five jobs together. Four or five jobs together.

[Naomi]

Yeah. We've been promoted twice.

[Catherine]

Yeah, three times.

[Naomi]

Three times.

[Catherine]

So it's. Yeah, yeah, but it's, it's, it's not been easy on any occasion.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

No, it's how you found the way to work together and to stay together. But it's also the outside perception, isn't it? So can Naomi, can you perhaps reflect Just on how the two of you have found the way to work together. Because there's, you know, human beings are human beings. There's gotta be moments of frustration where you think, I would have done that differently, or how do you manage your way through that? And do you think the fact that you've done it together for so long has changed perceptions from the outside? You know, people in the organisations you've worked in, looking at a job share and thinking it can really work, because they've seen your model of doing it, whereas at the start they might have been quite sceptical that it could work.

[Naomi]

Yeah. So to take the second part first, I think we are a kind of a package. Whether we like it or not, we are the. We are the Catherine Naomi job share. And that's taken a lot of. A lot of hard work and it doesn't happen at the start. You know, you have to. You have to build that credibility as a job share partnership. And I think the key things are trust. You have to trust each other kind of implicitly. You can't. You can't have any competition as between us, we are a package. We succeed or fail together, we can't compete with each other and we can't allow other people to sort of try and foster any kind of differences between us. And we have to communicate really well and all the time. So we've built up just ways of doing that and it becomes more natural and easy to do the longer you're together as a job share. But I think also we do recognise we do have different interests. So I think as we've become more established and confident in our job share, we've sort of allowed each other to explore our own interests a little bit more. So we don't just do everything together, which is how we've sort of operated in the past. But, yeah, I think the key thing is you just can't compete with each other. And in a way, it's a really wonderful feeling because you very rarely have that relationship with anyone at work because you're nearly always competing, even with your close colleagues. Ultimately, there's only one promotion or whatever. So having that feeling of someone who's totally got your back and you've got theirs is really quite a powerful, positive feeling.

[Catherine]

Can I just add one thing to that? Which is, I mean, ultimately it's about sharing power and if you don't share that power with the other person, you do not succeed. But I mean, if you think about it, that's quite a tricky thing to do. And how many People, if you're in the senior leadership of an organization, will share the power in that way. And that's why I think it's such a positive thing, because ultimately it leads to the values and the competencies of why government functions. I mean, government is basically a massive display of team work. It's a team sport throughout, particularly in the national security space. And I mean, we like to think that we kind of personify that kind of image of sharing power, being willing to walk away from something absolutely fascinating because you trust your partnership and you trust that person to continue to deliver for you. And it might be something I've been working on for days and it's just about to finish and I don't get to see the finish part or vice versa. And it is. You want to finish it, but that's the way it works. And like sometimes I will set up a meeting for Naomi with someone very senior and she'll do the same for me. And that's why it works.

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[Catherine]

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[Host (Julia Gillard)]

So 13 years in. Another 13 to go, quite possibly.

[Catherine]

I mean, who knows? I mean, it does. I mean, genuinely, it has worked very well and I mean, we get on very well and I think that's the real core of why it works. But if you're working in national security stuff, the judgment calls are really difficult. And so to Naomi's point about being able to kind of share the role, the job, you get to share those difficult judgments as well. And it's a kind of inbuilt coaching but challenge function. So it really does help. But who knows? I mean, there's been job share heads of department, hopefully, but we'll see what opportunities open up and go from there.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Well, on opportunities opening up and women generally, we're back to James Bond, but from the James Bond franchise. You know, Daniel Craig was fine, but the most interesting character was always Judi Dench in the role of C, the chief of mic. And in real life, in recent weeks, the first ever woman C has been appointed. It's not Judi Dench, in case anybody is confused about that, it's Blaise Metroele who will succeed the current head, Richard Moore, making her the 18th chief and the first woman to be C. Before that, she was Q. People would remember that role from James Bond too. It was normally done as a sort of almost comedic interlude, a man in a white lab coat coming up with crazy things to give James Bond. But of course, in real life, Q is actually the Director General for Technology and Innovation. In addition to a woman being the chief at MI6 for the first time, there have been two women who have led MI5 Stella Rimmington, who in her retirement writes spy novels, and Eliza Manningham Buller, who was my predecessor as the chair of the board of Wellcome back home in Aus. A woman's never led asio, but Kerry Hartland commenced as the Director General of the Australian Secret intelligence service in 2023, making her the first woman to lead that organisation. Now, having a woman lead an organisation doesn't magic away all gender equality issues. But how important do you think it is that there have been women come through and particularly in MI6, now the first ever woman.

[Catherine]

I mean, I think we both think it's fabulous news. And I mean, yeah, it's taken a long time, but it is fabulous news that Blaze Micciarelli is now going to be the Chief. I mean, in my career, we've had the order of meeting Blaze and Eliza in the course of our work and they are both incredibly impressive women who have been and will be super impressive leaders in the future. But I mean, it's that talent pipeline, right? I mean, we have to make sure, we always have to make sure that the people coming up, the best people are coming up and it doesn't matter what they look like, it's that diversity of background and characteristic and belief, etc. Etc. And I mean, I think that the percentages have shown that that hasn't been balanced over the years because it is still low in women generally. And so we all have to do what we can to help that pipeline. And I think things like flexible working, job sharing, I think that will help the pipeline because it allows people to work a slightly different way and stay in the game and then maybe change it later on. But it is fabulous news. But we're still waiting for some firsts in other parts of the government.

[Naomi]

The fact that Blaise is also a real innovator and comes from the tech world, because that's also unusual for a woman. So I think she really brings that, which is wonderful. And I think having a woman as your sort of the external face of the organization sends a really powerful message, both for the recruitment purposes, but also I think in that role she will be a diplomat as well as the head of a spy agency and sends a powerful message to parts of the world where women have fewer rights than we do here as well. So I think that's also really important.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Absolutely, yeah, that's a very important point. The externally facing bit into a world where we know gender equality is sadly under attack in so many ways. So it will be incredibly interesting to watch her career and to watch your continuing career. Never know when we might end up with a job. Shared C. We'll see what happens in the future.

[Catherine]

I mean, I'm game if you are.

[Naomi]

It's a deal.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Judi Dench could have been in a job share with Helen Mirren or something in the Bond franchise, why not? But let's conclude with a insight into what you like to do in your spare time, if you ever get spare time outside the national security community and looking after the kids. And are you a reader of spy novels? And if so, what would you recommend?

[Catherine]

Oh, spy novel wise. I mean, I love a spy novel. My father is actually really good at recommending them to me. David McCloskey, big fan of his Damascus Station. But there's one, it's called Edith and Kim by Charlotte Philby. She's the great granddaughter of Kim Philby and she talks about fictional story about the woman behind the man and I found that absolutely fascinating. So, yeah, I do love a good spy novel. But when I'm not working, sometimes I sit on the parole board as well. And so I spend my time thinking about who can and can't be released from prison safely. If anyone's interested in that, there's a really fascinating documentary called Parole on the BBC which tells you A bit more about that. So another bit of public service which has got a good balance with being able to do a job, share in a fantastic part of government.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Wow, that does not sound like light relief. They would be very, very big decisions. But thank you for the reading recommendations. And of course, if the name Kim Philby is just ringing bells in the backs of people's heads, but they can't quite place it. Kim Philby was the famous Russian spy who worked his way up very far in the UK national security community before being uncovered and he managed to flee to Moscow rather than be apprehended. And I think I'm right in saying David McCluskey is from the national security community, originally used to work in the CIA, writes books and I think he's in a podcast. Is it the Rest is Classified? That's right, yes. From the Rest is stable, you know, brings us. The rest is history. The rest is politics. The rest is weather. The rest is the rest they do it all. So if you're interested in following the spy theme, we're happy to give a shout out to the Rest Is Classified. What about you, Naomi? Do you ever get any time off with four kids? I think that's gotta be the threshold question.

[Naomi]

It's very little, but the time I do, I always read before I fall asleep in the evenings and it is quite often a spy novel. I have to say, my favourite, I still love Le Carre. I think he writes so beautifully and he gets the sort of understated, sort of unglamorous side of it, but also brings in all the suspense and excitement as well. And for my other thing that I do to relax, I go swimming in the Ladies Pond on Hampstead Heath. So cold water swimming all year round is my thing.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

And for the Aussie listeners, I've just got to say, when people in the UK talk about cold water swimming, they are not mucking around like it is.

[Naomi]

Cold, 2 degrees on Christmas Day.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Like.

[Catherine]

The sea in Scotland.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Right. You haven't persuaded me on the cold water swimming, but the Le Carre. I'm definitely agreeing with you. A big theme in Le Carre in the novels is that there's a difference between the way the British approach intelligence issues, the British intelligence community and the Americans, who they always refer to as the cousins in the Le Carre novels. Do you think that's right or that's also just a fiction trope?

[Naomi]

No, I think there are differences in the way that Brits and Americans approach things. I mean, we're very close allies and have very close partnerships with a number of countries, including Australia of course. But yeah, it's always great to work with international partners because you do approach things differently and it's endlessly fascinating, I think, because of that. But despite the differences, we always managed to find, or nearly always manage to find common ground.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Well, I hope both of you have had the opportunity to work with Aussies in your career.

[Naomi]

Absolutely.

[Catherine]

I was across in Australia twice in the last two years. I don't know how you do it. That jet lag took me days to recover from. But it is always wonderful conversation with the Australians because it's obviously two different countries, very different approaches, but so much commonality. Always a good conversation.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Well, the only way of getting better at the jet lag is to just do it more often. So you both need to travel to Australia as often as possible. But thank you for an incredibly fascinating conversation. I've learned a lot. It's been delightful to have you here.

[Naomi]

Thank you very much for having us.

[Catherine]

It's been a pleasure.

[Host (Julia Gillard)]

Thank you.

[Catherine]

A Podcast of One's Own.

[Rippling Advertiser]

Is created by the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at the Australian National University, Canberra, with support from our sister Institute at King's College, London. Earnings from the podcast go back into funding for the Institute, which was founded by our host Julia Gillard, and brings together rigorous research, practice and advocacy as a powerful force to advance gender equality and promote fair and equal access. Access to leadership research and production for this podcast is by Becca Shepherd, Alice Higgins and Alina Ecot with editing by Liz Keen from Headline Productions. If you have feedback or ideas, please email us at giwlnu. Edu Au. To stay up to date with the Institute's work, go to giwl.anu.edu au and sign up to our updates or follow us on social media Jewel Anu. You can also find A Podcast of One's Own on Instagram. The team at A Podcast of One's Own acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders, past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today. Thanks for listening and we hope you'll join us next time.

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