Podcast Summary: Catherine & Naomi on Job Sharing & Diversity in National Security

Podcast: A Podcast of One’s Own with Julia Gillard
Episode Title: Catherine & Naomi on job sharing & diversity in national security
Release Date: October 29, 2025
Host: Julia Gillard, Founder and Chair, Global Institute for Women’s Leadership
Guests: Catherine & Naomi, Senior UK National Security Civil Servants and Long-term Job Share Partners

Episode Overview

In this episode, Julia Gillard sits down with Catherine and Naomi, two high-ranking civil servants in the UK's national security community. The discussion centers on their unique job-sharing arrangement, gender and class diversity within national security, career progression as working mothers, and the realities of national security work compared to spy fiction. This episode illuminates the lived experiences and insights of women who have thrived in a traditionally male-dominated and secretive field, with a specific exploration of flexible work models and diversity in leadership.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introductions and Upbringings

• Catherine’s Background

  • Grew up in a small, socially mobile family in northern Scotland.
  • Felt like an outlier at home (more “artsy”) and at her average state school, struggled with confidence and "learned not to speak up" (04:04).
  • “I was just trying to keep working hard so that I could keep up with everyone else.” (04:04)

• Naomi’s Background

  • Raised near London, both parents worked in the NHS.
  • Strong ethic of public service and early political engagement (wrote letters to her MP as a child) (05:16).
  • Attended an all-girls school, later switched to a mixed sixth-form college.

First Encounters with Gender Dynamics

• Delayed Awareness of Gender Inequality
  • Catherine: Didn’t feel gendered experiences until entering the workforce. "If I just work really hard, people will notice me and see that I'm doing well ... I realized there was something that I wasn't doing [and] that was when the game came into it." (06:44)
  • Naomi: Noticed differences during sixth form (excluded from rugby team and a volunteer trip because she was a girl), but most acutely after having children and working part time: “You're just at a bit of a disadvantage if you’re not there all the time.” (08:45)

National Security Careers & Values

• Pop Culture vs. Reality

  • Julia frames the national security stereotype: “Movies... have given us James Bond, the most enduring spy stereotype.” (01:43)
  • Catherine: Grew up loving Bond films, but only realized in her government career what the real work entailed—driven by “a really strong sense of mission and purpose ... it’s not always easy to know what the right thing to do is.” (16:10)
  • Naomi: Entered national security via public service; learned the field needed people with diverse perspectives and values (11:57).

• Paths into National Security

  • Catherine: International experiences through university led to a government traineeship, then national security.
  • Naomi: Deepened understanding of complexity through first role in Iraq post-Saddam Hussein—"the world's a lot more complicated ... a really good avenue into all sorts of interesting jobs." (11:57)

Realities for Women & Diversity in National Security

• Underrepresentation & Perceptions

  • "There are more men that work in the national security community than women" (20:12).
  • Barriers flagged: fear of danger, lack of flexibility, and culture fit.

• Voice, Accent, and Inclusion

  • Catherine discusses accent and class challenges: "My Scottish accent was much stronger before I moved to London ... I have subconsciously changed the way that I speak and tried to sound like everyone else.” (23:18)
  • Naomi highlights the importance of diversity: "Otherwise we're not going to be making the right decisions." (25:05)

The Job Share: Structure, Challenges, and Strengths

• How it Began

  • Naomi started job sharing after her twins, and after an initial partner left, reached out to Catherine, who had just returned from maternity leave (26:56).

• Why It Works

  • Their partnership built on trust, excellent communication, and zero internal competition: "We succeed or fail together, we can't compete with each other ... you have to trust each other implicitly." (30:30)
  • Job sharing provides built-in challenge and coaching: "You get to share those difficult judgments as well." (34:30)
  • Power-sharing as leadership: “Ultimately, it's about sharing power and if you don't share that power with the other person, you do not succeed.” (31:50)

• External Perceptions

  • Early skepticism ("...whether we'd be taken seriously... particularly as two part time women"), but their success changed minds (20:12, 30:30).
  • Successfully applied jointly for multiple roles and promotions (29:34).

Leadership, Progress, and Pipeline

• Women Leaders in Intelligence
  • Julia highlights recent and groundbreaking women leaders (MI6 and ASIS first female heads) (35:13).
  • Catherine: “We have to make sure that the people coming up, the best people are coming up, and it doesn't matter what they look like.” (37:05)
  • Naomi: The new female MI6 Chief is "a real innovator and comes from the tech world...sends a really powerful message." (38:21)

Work-Life Balance and Personal Interests

• Books and Hobbies

  • Catherine: Enjoys spy novels, recommends David McCloskey’s Damascus Station and Edith and Kim by Charlotte Philby (39:46).
  • Also serves on the UK Parole Board – a different public service role (40:41).
  • Naomi: Avid Le Carre reader; relaxes with year-round cold-water swimming at Hampstead Heath (41:54, 42:19).

• On Cultural Differences in Intelligence

  • “There are differences in the way that Brits and Americans approach things...but despite the differences, we always manage to find, or nearly always manage to find common ground.” (43:08)
  • Both have worked with Australian colleagues; appreciate both commonality and unique perspectives (43:36).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On being overlooked despite hard work:
  “I thought, work hard, you'll get noticed. That was not happening and others, typically men, would be getting these opportunities.”
  – Catherine, 06:44

• On challenging stereotypes and inclusion:
  “For most of us, you can get the fun and excitement without actually putting yourself in danger or using any of the gadgets … you don't want to put off a diverse range of people joining the national security community because they’re worried it's going to be dangerous.”
  – Naomi, 17:50

• On job sharing and power:
  “If you don't share that power with the other person, you do not succeed. That’s quite a tricky thing to do.”
  – Catherine, 31:50

• On professionalism and gendered meetings:
  “There’s sometimes a tendency to self-limit, not put yourself forward for something … we were both a bit skeptical about whether we’d be taken seriously ... as two part-time women. And we really were...”
  – Catherine, 01:16, expanded in 20:12

• On class, accent and workplace culture:
  “I have subconsciously changed the way that I speak and tried to sound like everyone else, and I kind of wish I hadn't done that.”
  – Catherine, 23:18

• On women as leaders:
  “Having a woman as your external face ... sends a really powerful message, both for the recruitment purposes, but also ... to parts of the world where women have fewer rights.”
  – Naomi, 38:21

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:04] Catherine’s early life and school experiences
• [05:16] Naomi’s childhood and political engagement
• [06:44] When gender differences first became apparent
• [11:57] Motivations for joining the national security community (Naomi and Catherine)
• [16:10] Stereotypes vs. reality of intelligence work
• [20:12] Gender imbalances and why job sharing is rare
• [23:18] Accents, class, and adapting to workplace culture
• [25:05] Importance of diversity in national security
• [26:56] How their job share began and evolved
• [30:30] Making a job share partnership thrive
• [34:30] Power-sharing and challenging decisions in job sharing
• [35:13] Women breaking leadership barriers in intelligence agencies
• [37:05] Nurturing the pipeline for women in national security
• [39:46] Personal favourites: spy novels & leisure activities
• [43:08] Cross-national intelligence co-operation and differences
• [43:36] Experiences working with Australian colleagues

Summary

This episode offers a candid, often humorous, and deeply insightful look at the theme of gender, diversity, and flexible working in national security. Catherine and Naomi share the story of their job share—highlighting the practicalities, mutual trust, and emotional intelligence needed to succeed as a duo in a male-dominated environment. They discuss how the realities of intelligence work differ from stereotypes, the importance of supportive leadership and diverse perspectives, and steps for building more inclusive pathways for future leaders. This conversation, peppered with book recommendations and reflections on personal balance, will speak to anyone interested in gender equality, public service, or the realities behind the secretive world of national security.

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