A Podcast of One's Own with Julia Gillard

Episode: Jacinda Ardern on Leading With Kindness

Release Date: September 17, 2025
Host: Julia Gillard
Guest: Dame Jacinda Ardern

Overview

In this compelling episode, Julia Gillard sits down in London with Jacinda Ardern, former Prime Minister of New Zealand, to dive deep into the meaning and practice of "leading with kindness." They discuss Jacinda’s landmark leadership journey, her new memoir A Different Kind of Power, her approach to policy and politics, and her personal experiences balancing motherhood and office. Their conversation explores gender in politics, the utility and challenges of empathy in leadership, and the evolving demands of public service at a time of global uncertainty.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life After Leadership & Writing a Memoir

• Writing her memoir was a long, reflective, and sometimes intrusive process. Jacinda underestimated the time required compared to Julia Gillard's own writing marathon.
  • Jacinda:

    "...I think first of all, I underestimated the amount of time it would take to write the book." (02:40)

• Alongside writing, Jacinda remains active on issues in climate change, women's and children's welfare, and tackling online extremism.

2. Children’s Book: "Mum’s Busy Work"

• Jacinda wrote her children’s book drawing inspiration directly from her daughter, Niamh, to fill a gap on working parents in children’s literature.
  • Jacinda:

    "...never really seeing anything that was specific to working parents or working caregivers...So it's in her voice. And in fact, when I read it to her the first time, she said to me on almost every page, oh, I said that. Oh, I did that." (04:53)

3. Formative Years & Political Awakening

• Jacinda’s childhood, growing up in small New Zealand towns, shaped her sense of social responsibility and awareness of inequity.
• Early political involvement with her aunt exposed her to the intimacy of political life—especially through door-knocking and one-on-one community engagement.
  • Jacinda:

    "...door knocking...it was the way to really understand what, you know, what was resonating, what wasn't...some of the stories that you collect...move you to tears." (11:23)

4. Gender, Politics & Sensitivity in Leadership

• While Jacinda didn’t consciously think about her gender in her early political years (thanks to role models Helen Clark and Jenny Shipley), she did self-exclude because she saw herself as "too sensitive" for politics—an attribute she later reframed as a strength.
  • Jacinda:

    "I considered myself to be very lucky...I don't remember thinking about my gender in my early stages of going into politics...But...I was a sensitive person who finds certain parts of politics very difficult." (15:36)

  • Julia:

    "Sensitivity was my weakness, my tragic flaw..." (17:17)

• The conversation reflects on how women in leadership are often forced to weigh when to confront sexism and when to power through it—and the personal toll of repeated, normalized sexist incidents.
  • Jacinda:

    "I...pushed aside...name calling...it was just a mechanism...so that I didn't get too hung up...not wanting to be seen as being a victim." (22:33)

5. Redefining Leadership & Leading with Kindness

• Both leaders agree that earlier generations (including Julia’s "Model 1.0") had to prove women could survive in highly adversarial political spaces. Jacinda, benefiting from those breakthroughs, chose to foreground empathy and kindness as leadership values.
  • Julia:

    "I'm the person you need when you're about to have the first woman prime minister...the job...is to show that a woman can do it." (18:03)

  • Jacinda:

    "By breaking that ceiling, it then gave an opportunity to try and break some different ones..." (19:32)

• Jacinda resisted political cynicism and negative campaigning, aiming to model alternative ways to exercise power.
  • Jacinda:

    "I could only really...make the decision of will I change myself or not...that sensitivity was my empathy...maybe actually...we need a few more politicians who carry that with them." (28:50)

  • She committed: "I said that we were going to run a positive campaign, that we weren't going to personally attack our opponents, and in office, we stuck to that." (31:21)

6. Kindness Versus Fear and Division in Modern Politics

• The hosts analyze the global swing back toward "macho" leadership styles, fear-based politics, and polarization, contrasting them with empathetic leadership.
  • Jacinda:

    "There's an assumption that if you're an empathetic leader, you're not strong, you're not decisive...I think, in fact, that's exactly the time that we need empathetic leadership." (33:15)

• They discuss how instability, disinformation, and fear have been weaponized by some leaders—a trend that, Jacinda suggests, cannot be sustained if politicians fail to deliver real change.

7. Motherhood in Office: A Realistic Portrait

• Jacinda shares her experiences of leading while pregnant and then as a mother, emphasizing the unpredictability and practical challenges, from learning she was pregnant during coalition talks to balancing breastfeeding with the United Nations General Assembly podium.
  • Jacinda:

    "I'd struggled with fertility...to find myself pregnant was a great surprise to me..." (38:54)

  • She’s quick to dispel the "superwoman" myth:

    "I'd have these conversations with women who would say, 'I don't know how you do it all,' and I would just say, 'I don't. Please don't think I do.'" (41:58)

  • About the viral UN photo:

    "I hated that photo at the UN because I'm pulling the most ridiculous faces...She was never there for show." (42:34)

8. Christchurch Tragedy, Empathy, and Instincts in Leadership

• Jacinda reflects on responding to the 2019 mass shooting:

  • "...there might be some kind of manual...but instead I simply write about what happened and how it felt to lead in that period, because so much of it is instinctive." (44:54)

• She highlights the importance of showing emotional authenticity and humanity in moments of national grief.

9. The Choice to Step Down

• Unlike most leaders, Jacinda chose her own timing to step down, a decision she describes as "very lonely."
  • Jacinda:

    "It was very lonely...there weren't many people I could talk to...I had that faith...it was the responsible thing to do if I decided I didn't have the energy required anymore..." (48:16)

10. Renewing Hope in a Challenging World

• In closing, Julia asks what gives Jacinda hope for the future.
  • Jacinda:

    "What I see around me is particularly a young generation of people who feel vehemently that the world needs to be different, that politics should be addressing these challenges...There is not indifference out there. People care deeply about what they see. What we need is more responsive leadership. So that is what gives me hope." (51:16)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On reframing sensitivity as strength:
  “...that sensitivity was my empathy and realising that something that I...seen as a flaw was actually something I should really value in politics.” — Jacinda Ardern (29:30)
• On leading authentically:
  “I couldn't change the system, but I could change the way we operated within that system.” — Jacinda Ardern (31:55)
• On the persistence of sexism:
  “You want to challenge the behaviors, but you...want to further the lot of women. And that means...you keep moving. So I remember that dilemma distinctly…” — Jacinda Ardern (22:33)
• On hope in young people:
  “There is not indifference out there. People care deeply about what they see. What we need is more responsive leadership.” — Jacinda Ardern (51:16)
• On motherhood, imperfection, and support:
  “I don't know how you do it all...I don't. Please don't think I do...I couldn't do life without...the support we had around us.” — Jacinda Ardern (41:58)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Jacinda on sustaining hope through youth and activism — 00:21, 51:16
• Writing process and transition to authorship — 02:40–06:34
• Door-knocking, community intimacy, and early advocacy — 09:40–13:39
• Gender barriers and political formation — 15:00–22:13
• Redefining leadership, leading with empathy — 28:50–33:15
• Empathy versus fear in politics post-pandemic — 33:15–36:21
• The realities of motherhood in the highest office — 37:33–44:54
• Christchurch massacre and the power of authentic leadership — 44:54–47:17
• The personal decision to leave office — 47:30–50:24
• Jacinda’s closing thoughts on hope and leadership — 51:16–52:27

Episode Tone & Closing

The conversation is warm, candid, and illuminating, marked by mutual respect, moments of humor (such as comparing “double chins” in UN photos), and a persistent focus on authenticity. Both Julia and Jacinda offer thoughtful reflections grounded in their lived experiences and groundbreaking achievements, while remaining attentive to the ongoing struggles for gender equality and more responsive, humane leadership worldwide.