← A Podcast of One's Own with Julia Gillard
A Podcast of One's Own with Julia Gillard
Julia Gillard and Bridget Phillipson live at the Global Institute for Women's Leadership
00:40:08
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- [00:01]
Bridget Philipson
With VRBoCare, help is always ready before,
- [00:05]
Julia Gillard
during and after your stay. We've planned for the plot twists, so
- [00:09]
Bridget Philipson
support is always available because a great trip starts with peace of mind, Having a range of people from different backgrounds with different perspectives. They regard it as a business, as being really important. If you're in that moment when you've got big decisions to take, you want an range of opinions, you don't want groupthink mentality.
- [00:39]
Podcast Narrator
This episode of A podcast of One's Own was recorded at a live event at the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at King's College London earlier this year. Julia first sits down with Bridget Philipson, the UK's minister for women and Equalities and Secretary of State for Education. They chart her journey from her childhood in Sunderland to running a domestic violence refuge and then becoming a cabinet minister in the nation's first labor government for 14 years. They're later joined by Kelly Beaver, Chief Executive of Ipsos uk, to discuss the latest global findings on attitudes towards gender equality.
- [01:26]
Julia Gillard
For this first section, I've got the great privilege of speaking to Bridget. I did want to start at the very beginning because it does seem like a good place to start with your family background and your motivations for becoming involved in labor politics. I mean, you didn't come from a privileged background. If anything, you came from the reverse. Can you tell us a bit about that and what shaped your views about labor politics and gender from your family background?
- [01:55]
Bridget Philipson
Yeah. So, as you've heard, I grew up in the northeast of England in the 80s and the 90s. It was a tough time for the community. I grew up in a council street. There were high levels of unemployment, high levels of crime. It was a tough time all round. And I'll return to gender, but I think there is also that really important strand around socioeconomic disadvantage and class as a part of that, that shapes my politics alongside gender. My mum was a feminist. She had been involved in the kind of 70s women's movement, got involved in a lot of that self organising that went on at the time and as a result was involved in opening one of the very first women's refuges in the northeast of England and was a real trailblazer. I then came along slightly unexpectedly and that rather changed things. And it was at a time when childcare wasn't really particularly well available for women. My mum brought me up on her own. I never met my dad. He had no involvement in my life. And that meant that my mum wasn't able to work for a period which obviously, when You've only got one income anyway and that income is connected to Social Security benefits. It can be tough, but I was always pushed to not be held back by the norms of the time, to be confident in what I could achieve. And my mum was also a member of the Labour Party, so I would go along to things with her because if I didn't go with her, she didn't get to go because there was no childcare. So I spent quite a lot of time kind of hanging around, you know, playing outside the Miners hall where we used to have a lot of these meetings. And what was really phenomenal was the involvement of women in Labour politics. Now people might have a certain worldview about the northeast of England. We were obviously an area of lots of traditional heavy industry, quite male dominated heavy industry, but alongside that a really strong tradition of women shaping and being involved in the Labour movement. And it was a lot of those really tough, fierce women who made a lot of the decisions about what went on. And one member of the party who, if you wanted to get things done, then you needed to speak to Vera to sort it out. Vera Bryden, who to this day has been now a member of the Labour party for over 75 years. And we celebrated her 75 years as a Labour Party member just the other year, even now, she's still telling us what we need to do and what we shouldn't be doing. And it's that kind of tradition that the women's sections that we had in the Labour Party was such an important way of encouraging women to get involved in political activity. And what was incredible about Vera was not just the contribution she played, she never actually sought elected office, but she played such an important role in encouraging so many of us to stand for elected office. And when I was selected as the Labour candidate in 2009 in Horton and Sunderland South, Vera's stamp of approval was absolutely central to winning that selection because people respected the integrity and the determination that she brought. And there's a really strong and powerful tradition that I don't think we talk about enough around the contribution of women to the Labour movement.
- [05:09]
Julia Gillard
Absolutely. And you were pre selected and entered Parliament very young and coming from that background with lots of strong women around your mother, strong labor women, Vera being the gatekeeper. When you came to the Parliament, how did gender interact? I mean, for a young woman entering Parliament, I'm assuming that there were barriers that people had doubts because you were young, doubts because you were a young woman in particular, probably a lot of focus on appearance, those kinds of things, how did you live it? What did it feel like?
- [05:47]
Bridget Philipson
I mean, I was able to benefit from so much of the progress that others had delivered. So when I was elected in 2010, I was serving alongside fantastic women like Harriet Harman, who had really, really led the charge to get more women into Parliament. I think what's also really, I reflect on, you know, my own local party members and my constituents who did put their trust in someone who was at that point quite young. And I think, again, that speaks to. Sometimes people can hold preconceived ideas about what certain parts of the country, a very traditional Labour area, what people might think. Actually they took a risk on someone like me who was quite young, and I'll be forever grateful for the opportunity that they've given me to serve. What's also lovely in a kind of full circle way, is that a key member of my team at the Department for Education working alongside me on equalities is Jackie Smith, who was the first female Home Secretary in a Labour government, who is now back working with us in government. So there are so many fantastic women and there are Conservative women, women from other parties too, who've really blazed a trail and made it far easier for someone like me back in 2010. We've made a lot of progress since then too. You know, just over 20% of women in parliament in 2010. Now it's over 40%, more than 50% in the labour Party. Big strides forward in quite a short space of time, but not complacent about the change that's still needed.
- [07:11]
Julia Gillard
And because you got into Parliament young, you married, you had your children, as a Member of Parliament, can you talk to us about balancing that? Pretty crazy.
- [07:21]
Bridget Philipson
So both of my children have been born while I've been a Member of Parliament, most of the time as a backbench mp, which, I'll be honest, does make it a bit easier. It is tougher as a government minister, but they're now a bit older, so they need you in different ways at different times in their life. But it is a bit easier. But part of the reason that I'm able to do this job in the way that I need to do it is because I also have a really supportive husband as well, who we share family responsibilities. And I think that is also the shift that I've seen in Parliament amongst many of my male colleagues. They want some of these changes to happen as well, because they want to play a full role in the lives of their children. And some of the changes that we've seen in Parliament around For example, the opening up of a nursery, which is also available for staff to use who work there as well as for members of Parliament, was an important innovation. But I suppose like any parent that, you know, tries to juggle work and family responsibilities, you try and muddle through and do your best sometimes.
- [08:20]
Julia Gillard
In the Australian Parliament, we changed the non members bar into a childcare centre and mostly people think the behaviour's improved
- [08:29]
Kelly Beaver
as a
- [08:31]
Bridget Philipson
very similar. Actually it was a ball that. It was before my time, but it was a bar that they converted into the nursery here too.
- [08:37]
Julia Gillard
Yeah, there's a theme going on here. You did a long hard slog in opposition and then had the opportunity to move into government last year and with, you know, the huge portfolios that you have with education and with the equalities portfolio, I mean, stepping in, it seems to me a madcap system here in the uk where you're literally up all night and then they're swearing you in and then work starts. We do it in a little bit more of a civilised way in Australia. I'll talk to you about that later. I do think some changes are needed, but can you just talk to me a little bit about the emotion of that moment? You'd done 14 years in opposition, come to it young, perhaps, thinking that you'd get an opportunity to serve in a government quite quickly and it took that long. What did it feel like on election night?
- [09:28]
Bridget Philipson
I mean, all still, even to this day, feels slightly unreal. When I walked in here and you kind of see my name up there, I kind of think, oh, wow, that is, you know, it's still, it's wonderful. It's such a privilege. And you're right, so obviously all day on the Thursday out knocking on doors, both in my own seat and also in a marginal seat down the road on Teesside, then my constituency is the first in the country to count, so we announced pretty early, which meant I could quickly stop by my election party and then got in a car down to London to do media first thing in the morning because I'd been elected and therefore, unlike others, was able to get down. So didn't sleep at all, stayed awake watching the results coming in and then takes us through to. I think it was around 2 in the afternoon when I got the call to go to Downing Street. So I'd been up really since Thursday morning and then that takes us to kind of 2 o' clock on Friday. I mean, walking up Downing Street. I mean, I'd been in Downing Street a couple of times when I was a candidate. When we were last in government, it was an incredibly. A really emotional experience after so long, but not for me, for the chance to make a difference to this country and to deliver the change that I know is desperately needed for the people that for 14 long years sent me to Parliament with the hope of delivering changes. And now the opportunity to make that happen is an incredible responsibility. And every day I feel so lucky to have that opportunity. Very, very few people ever get that opportunity. And every day when I arrive at the department, I remind myself who I'm there to serve. And it is kids from communities like the one I grew up in who have the most to benefit from the change that I'm determined we deliver.
- [11:13]
Julia Gillard
Absolutely. And I do want to focus now on some of the policies, you know, for everyone, but with an impact for women and girls that I know are close to your heart and you're trying to make a difference on. One of them is tackling violence against women and children. Now, this is a topic that I think we've all discussed over a very long period of time. Governments have tried to make a difference, but it's a very difficult problem to change. You know, what do you think the government can do differently in this space that would be more impactful than the policies of the past?
- [11:53]
Bridget Philipson
So we do have a mission as a government to halve violence against women and girls over a decade that is really ambitious. And it involves big reform to how we encourage people to report domestic violence and sexual violence, how we make sure we've got more timely prosecution and charging. I mean, what we've inherited is absolutely dismal. I mean, the fact that so few cases ever result in prosecution, particularly where it comes to rape, is frankly, shocking, Absolutely shocking. So a lot that we need to do. So there are those reforms and the reforms that Yvette Cooper, the Home Secretary, is leading for us, I think there is a wider question about attitudes and we've obviously seen, you know, some of the polling that Kelly's presented tonight. There is more I think we need to do around supporting our young people to understand what healthy relationships look like. And we'll be setting up more content to support that within schools, including around issues around consent, where I think particularly what a lot of young people will be exposed to in the online space can be seriously damaging and harmful. And there is more that we as a government will do to ensure that our young people have age appropriate access to really good, quality teaching around all of that.
- [13:15]
Julia Gillard
In Australia, that has been a huge issue. And actually some of the lead activists of the teachers consent movement are in the room tonight. And that's been education about consent integrated into the national curriculum in an age appropriate way. I mean, you personally must see some of the misogyny that is online and which is directed at women politicians, women in the public square for other reasons. And there's, you know, the impact that it has on attitudes and the potential to create the kind of disrespect which then moves for some people into violence. I mean, given the temper of the world appears to be away from social media regulation, less self regulation, how do you think we can tackle that kind of misogyny?
- [14:10]
Bridget Philipson
It's a really tough one and I think if we knew the full answer, we might have fixed it by now. But I think we are acting around implementing the Online Safety act and what more is required in terms of regulation? The work that Peter Kyle is leading for us on that, I'd say alongside it, it's clearly a big issue. And. But there is also a degree to which I think people feel empowered by what they see, those echo chambers that allow for people to kind of self reinforce some of those views. And I think alongside that, I always feel a responsibility as a woman politician not to make everything sound so terrible that we risk not other women wanting to come forward. There are ups and downs, and you do get the treatment you get as a woman politician is different for a range of reasons. The names that you called, the way that you described, the way that people talk about you, especially how you appear, just don't apply in the same way for men. But I really want that next generation of women to come forward to stand for elected office and to take on responsibility. So I always slightly worry about making sure that there's balance in terms of what I say there. But I think we have responsibilities as those of us who are elected in terms of the language that we use, how we approach political debate and the nature of that debate. And I think as political parties, we have responsibilities around the people that we're putting forward for elected office. And I look, for example, to reform five MPs, all men, one of whom has a conviction for assaulting his girlfriend and was sent to prison for that. And I think that sends a pretty terrible message to the country. You know, you pretend you care about domestic violence, about violence against women and girls, and you allow someone to come forward as a candidate and to be elected to hold a very important position within our country, someone with that kind of history. You know, if I were a woman wanting to seek out, you know, help from My Member of Parliament. Yes, it presents some serious questions.
- [16:16]
Julia Gillard
It certainly does. And it brings us really to the, you know, research questions and the nature of the political moment we're living in now. We've been doing this, as I think Kelly said, for seven years. And I keep waiting for Kelly to come in with research that is like thumbs up, it's all good, whereupon I'll do, you know, a short little dance or something like that, and then ride off into the sunset and spend my twilight years reading books and drinking red wine. This is. This is the vision for the future. But we're not there yet. And we're not there in a very visible way because diversity, equity and inclusion have curiously now become, you know, political flashpoint words because of the actions of the Trump administration and the fact that a national government, let alone of a nation of the size and heft of the US would think that there is political, you know, political advantage to be struck in campaigning against diversity, equity and inclusion. It does make me think, you know, what have we been doing wrong? Why haven't we carried the population more profoundly along with us on these questions? And as Kelly's research shows, it's not all one way, but we're not, you know, winning the argument in the court of public opinion as profoundly as we would like to. How do you think about that?
- [18:00]
Bridget Philipson
So I think there is an important point around really positive male role models within all of this and making sure we've got the right role models and the right routes for our young men, too, who I think many of whom feel rather lost at the moment. Alongside that, where it comes to equality, and I think particularly where we're talking about the rule for business and the action that can be taken. Just one example of a practical example that I've seen that really brings to life why this matters in practical terms, in business terms, and why there is significance behind it. During National Apprenticeships Week, I visited Hinkley Point C and visited the college nearby as a part of that, met with some amazing female apprentices in areas that are traditionally quite male dominated, but where the employer was determined to recruit more women into nuclear. And when I was asking them why that was part of their answer was that in a kind of safety critical area such as nuclear, actually having a range of people from different backgrounds with different perspectives, they regarded as a business as being really important. So they said, look, we want more women to come and work here because we think it's a good thing that we're creating all of these jobs. We think as a point of principle, we should be making sure these jobs are available to the entirety of the local workforce. But actually there's a good, solid business case for making sure that we've got a diverse workforce. Because if you're in that moment when you've got big decisions to take, you want a range of opinions, you don't want groupthink mentality. So I think it matters in practical terms as well as it being there's a moral imperative behind it.
- [19:44]
Julia Gillard
I'm going to invite Kelly now to join us back on stage and join this conversation with her research work. And, Kelly, I'm going to stay on this business point because your research does show on business and obviously the Global Institute for Women's Leadership is now at home in the King's Business School and very happy to be there. When we look at your research over the 30 countries, around a third of people say gender equality policies adopted by businesses have had a positive impact on society. So that's good, but roughly the same proportion. So another third say either that these policies have made no difference or have had a negative impact. You know, why do you think people are so divided on this issue? It sort of links to the questions that we just discussed about why DEI has become such a political flashpoint.
- [20:41]
Kelly Beaver
I liked what you said, Bridget, about the fact that the businesses themselves need to own the reasons commercially and not just because it's a good thing to do around why they have DEI policies in place and showcase it a lot more. I've got at Ipsos, it's obvious why we need a diverse range of people working in the business. You cannot research topics around society without having a broad spectrum of society in your business. That's clear business sense. But then also taking that and saying, as a result of the fact that we have a diverse board, a diverse workforce, this is what the impact is on us as an organization. And I don't think organizations showcase the impact of the diversity well enough and the commercial imperative.
- [21:26]
Julia Gillard
Have you been surprised, the two of you, about how quickly some organisations have sounded the retreat, though? Some businesses, I mean, I get the, you know, if you're a business contracting in America, I get the very practical case that you can't any longer contract with the government unless you're falling into line with the Trump DEI agenda? I do understand that, and I do understand too, that there's a lively litigation industry in the us, which is suing many businesses and organisations that have got DEI policies, and that obviously forces businesses to respond. But, you know, here, Australia, other parts of the world, how Quickly, some have latched onto it and sounded the retreat. But how have you seen that?
- [22:19]
Kelly Beaver
Well, I look at some of the industries that immediately moved as well. Some of them were highly dependent on government contracting in order for them to do business in the us. So I think changing your own approach and your policies when governments change is not. We wouldn't consider that good business practice. But I am probably not 100% surprised to see, especially with Trump's, how do you say, sort of fickleness, you know, his potential to be quite upset at certain businesses and take it out on them in their contracting sphere. And he has all of that control, so not particularly surprised.
- [22:59]
Julia Gillard
Bridget, you and the government here obviously take a very different view.
- [23:05]
Bridget Philipson
I think it takes us back to the point around. There are some really good examples of where businesses are making decisions that are not just a good thing to do in order to demonstrate they feel they're doing a good thing. But, you know, we've got big skills gaps in our country. That's, you know, an area I'm leading on as well. If we're not drawing on the full kind of workforce potential, then we're going to continue to have that. So, again, another employer I visited doing fantastic work, training female plumbers, female electricians, had really targeted their advertising campaign in order to reach those groups, and they said, look, we want more women to work with us. We think that's a good thing. But actually, we're not going to be able to recruit the numbers of electricians and plumbers that we need unless we start thinking seriously about how we make this, make this feel like an attractive career for women. And, of course, it is an attractive career and it should be seen as an attractive career. And what some of the women I met with said was, look, they've kind of just drifted into what would have been regarded as quite traditional female industries after leaving school, and they'd never really thought that it was a career for them. So I think there is still a lot we can do to open up some of that, but I think business have a really good role in shaping it, but in demonstrating why it will be critical to delivering the skills and the people that they need, as well as it being just a good principle that we want people to have choice and freedom in their lives. I don't want people to feel, you know, that they should be driven to a particular kind of career by virtue of being a man or a woman.
- [24:32]
Kelly Beaver
You see the government demonstrating as they are, that it's important for the economy overall for women and men to be playing both equally active roles. That's the sort of thing that may be missing with the rhetoric we're hearing across the pond at the minute.
- [24:45]
Julia Gillard
Now, I'm going to go out for. I'm going to warn you in advance, it's going to be a very quick round of audience questions. I'll probably take three in total because I've pledged hand on heart that we're going to get Bridget out of here at the time she needs to go because she's got other commitments this evening. But before we go for that lightning round, you know, it's a pretty difficult time in the world, Kelly, in this world in which we live and looking at this research with the, you know, Gen Z statistics not being what we would like them to be, to see the polarisation between men and women, to seeing young men, you know, agreeing in greater proportions than older men with propositions like a man who stays home to look after his children is less of a man. With all of that, where do you find hope?
- [25:40]
Kelly Beaver
So when I looked at these statistics, some of the numbers did, they didn't surprise me because we've been doing this a long time, but they were quite extreme, especially some of those Gen Z ones. The piece that gave me hope was the quadrant at the end where you see the UK down in the bottom right hand corner where we're not seeing the same level of tension in our societies yet, but it is bubbling up. I've got fabulous ethnography footage and I say fabulous, but it's dripping with sarcasm because it's young men, Gen Alpha men and children, boys and girls, and the commentary between the two would really scare you. So it is there. It's just not as stark and we have an opportunity to really take action.
- [26:24]
Julia Gillard
And Bridget, I would imagine when you took that walk to Downing street when you hadn't slept for 36 hours or whatever it was, this isn't how you imagined the first, you know, nine months or so of the government that, you know, the Prime Minister would be having to put so much of his energies into foreign policy, into defence and security, that those issues would be at the fore so profoundly that, you know, we'd all be sort of sitting on the edge of our seats to see what was happening. With a reciprocal tariff war breaking out around the world as the US moved and other nations responded. I mean, with those sorts of security challenges and economic challenges which you probably didn't foresee, you would have needed a pretty good crystal ball. You know, how do you individually find sort of hope in this period? I feel it myself. You know, you get up in the morning, get your cup of coffee, you're feeling pretty good about the world, and then you open two or three news sites and you think to yourself, right, why on earth did I do that? Now I definitely need a second cup of coffee. I think, you know, that's a cycle that many of us are living through. It's not easy. How, against that backdrop, do you think a progressive government like the Starmer government can have hope and bring hope?
- [27:59]
Bridget Philipson
I've always, by nature, just been a very optimistic person. I genuinely think our country's best days still lie ahead of us. And I am incredibly proud of the leadership that Keir Starmer has been showing in seeking to ensure we get to a lasting peace for Ukraine and the leadership that he has been showing on the international stage. I think there is an enormous sense of pride that we can take as a country and the role that we are playing. Big challenges ahead. But I feel such confidence in Kia's ability to lead that I would say alongside is critical that we as a government demonstrate that change is happening. People voted for change, you know, not very long ago. They're impatient for change, I'm impatient for change. And that's why, you know, the kind of delivery of domestic priorities alongside international obligations is incredibly important too. And the progress that we've been able to do, even in a short space of time, the breakfast clubs that we're rolling out, skills, England that we're establishing, curriculum and assessment review, much, much more besides childcare, early years, entitlements crucial for women and for their contribution to the economy, so much we've achieved in a short space of time, so much more that we need to do. But I think even in the international context, going back to the contribution that people in our country can play as part of that shift that we do need to make around increasing defence spend, that has to be about good, well paid, highly skilled jobs in communities where they're desperately needed. And that's for young men as much as it is for young women. I do think we have to address, address some of the challenges that our young men are facing, too. More apprenticeship starts for both young men and young women will be critical. But returning as it's international, you know, around International Women's Day to the role for women again. As part of that visit, I took part in, during National Apprenticeships Week, meeting with a young female apprentice working on nuclear submarines, who was. Her career ambition was to go and work on Aukus. And I found incredibly powerful, really, really powerful and the reason she said she wanted to do that was because she felt that was her contribution to our country's security. And I was really moved by that. And I think there must be so many more young men and young women who want to be a part of that shift. So we've got that volatility. But if we're going to increase defence spend and we need to do that, how do we use that as a means of really giving people hope, especially some of our young people, about a brighter future whilst providing that bedrock of national security?
- [30:29]
Julia Gillard
I must admit, I was very relieved when it became apparent that President Trump didn't know what Aukus was. Because if he doesn't know what it is and it's not in his line of sight, I think there's at least less risk than if it is in his line of sight. And as an Australian Republican, I'd have to say that Royal Family comes in handy from time to time, don't they? Very handy. Working across teams is tough, but Asana helps you handle it. That's because Asana is where humans and AI coordinate work together. AI can spot roadblocks and assign work in a snap, so everything and everyone stays on track. That's how work gets handled. That's Asana. Visit us@asana.com that's a S a n a dot com. Now, we're going to go out for three quick questions and I'm going to distribute them around the room, so it's fair. So we've got one. One here.
- [31:43]
Bridget Philipson
Yes.
- [31:43]
Julia Gillard
You sit nearest the microphone.
- [31:46]
Audience Member
Hello. Thank you.
- [31:47]
Bridget Philipson
My name is Jackie Barrett and I'm from a company called Wider Thinking. And we roll out EDI awareness in organizations. And my question is, could we. Should we do the total opposite of what's going on in the US and actually mandate training and awareness and education within organizations?
- [32:09]
Audience Member
Not for the growth of my business,
- [32:11]
Bridget Philipson
but for people to really, truly understand why this is important for society and for the economy and the prosperity of individuals and their business, should we mandate it?
- [32:25]
Julia Gillard
Okay, I'm going to hold that question. I'm going to collect up two more. So I'm going to make you get your steps in today. I apologise for that. You'll definitely hit 10,000. I'll go here in the front row. Thank you.
- [32:40]
Audience Member
Hi. Thank you. That was really interesting. I'm Lucy Blake. I'm a partner in a US law firm, Jenner and Blogg. So I was interested in Kelly and Julia's comments about the rising tensions, particularly amongst young people and picking up as a lawyer, Bridget, on your comment about the Online Safety Act. But with so much content out there online, notwithstanding the efforts in the Online Safety act to prevent harmful content, is there more that the government can be doing to encourage debate and teach debate to young people, to teach them how to evaluate different information sources, how to challenge and engage and respectfully disagree with one another, to have some impact on those rising tensions in a more positive way?
- [33:36]
Julia Gillard
Thank you. I've got Alastair Campbell's voice in my head now saying, what is it? Disagree agreeably. And we'll just take one here at the Red Jacket.
- [33:46]
Audience Member
Hi, my name is Rebecca, I'm a Labour councillor and in my day job I actually work in defence, so I loved everything. You're so, so excited. My company, we offer some fantastic apprenticeships, so I'm not trying to sell it here. Whether you want to work in the office and we do some infrastructure, so whether you want to get your hands dirty and you want to go on the rail tracks and work on infrastructure, we offer them from the age of 18 and we pay for students to undertake their university degree. But I'm finding it, when I talk about this stuff, particularly in local schools, I find that they don't know that it exists. And even though I know there's a collective database of apprenticeships, schools don't seem to be using it. And I just wonder what we need to do more to promote these fantastic apprenticeships and particularly, I think these are great for children with SCN as well. It's another route to get into business, to be successful with perhaps going to university and having to sit down and do all those exams. Thank you.
- [34:51]
Julia Gillard
Thank you. So I'm going to get responses. So, Bridget, I think particularly that last question and this teaching debate to students and evaluation of information sources very squarely in your portfolios, in both senses. Yes.
- [35:07]
Bridget Philipson
Fantastic. To hear about the apprenticeships more, please. We need more of them and we want to work with business to create those apprenticeship opportunities. Because for all of the reasons that you've set out around what it can mean for young people and their life chances, but also the impact it has on the economy too. I mean, the amazing impact that apprentices have on economic growth and on output. So much, much more to do in the context of increasing defence spend on how we think about this in terms of teaching and wider understanding, there is a need, I believe, to equip young people with the critical thinking skills to challenge and to question what they see in front of them, not to take it at face value, not Just because some of what they might see online is potentially harmful or upsetting or can be unacceptable in terms of the age appropriate nature of it, but also the degree to which hostile actors will be using the online space to spread, to undermine our national security and the degree to which young people need to be able to really think about that and challenge what's in front of them. Now we've got a curriculum and assessment review that's underway at the moment that is looking at what happens within our schools. I think there is more to do. I think there is also more that we will set out around content in terms of healthy relationships, again, connected to some of what young people will sometimes see online, that presents a view of what relationships look like that I think a lot of us would find deeply, deeply concerning. So there is that. And just very finally, given where we are this evening, I think freedom of free speech, academic freedom in the context of higher education is also critical. And it's why I've been clear that we set out measures around how we will support universities to ensure that they are able to provide an environment of challenge, of disagreement, and where, yes, sometimes that will involve being exposed to things that you might disagree with, you might not like, you might find challenging. That's part of what education should be about. We should question and challenge, we should think and reassess our views. And yes, sometimes that does mean finding that you disagree with people and that's good. It's good to find ways in which I think, you know, as the slide shows at a time of tension, actually having that opportunity to discuss why you disagree, but recognising that, actually that's fine, that's healthy within a democracy, I think is really important. And all of our educational settings, including our brilliant universities, have a role, I think, in really encouraging that free expression.
- [37:40]
Julia Gillard
And Kelly, the question at the start about edi, I'd have to say I'm sure your business is doing very high quality work, but the data is quite equivocal about the impact of diversity training in companies and whether it overcomes stereotypes or reinforces them. So I think there's some things to think about there. But Kelly, I'll just turn to you for a reflection too.
- [38:11]
Kelly Beaver
I think there are, you know, putting in place mandatory training pieces like that also have a run a risk of tick box mentalities amongst organizations. So I think, you know, base standards of respect, inclusion in organizations, etc. Those kind of things. Absolutely. Fundamentally. And in the UK, actually, some of the stats and evidence that's been coming out after the DEI backlash in the US is people are actually leaning into it more in the uk, so it's had the opposite effect so far. Early days. But I would say you need people to lean into that kind of training or development or whatever it is you were suggesting, rather than mandate it per se.
- [38:59]
Julia Gillard
Well, thank you for those questions and I'm going to conclude by saying Happy International Women's Day to all of you. And if I could invite you to thank Kelly and her team for their amazing work. And also Bridget for taking the time to join us. I know what it's like to be in government, I know what the pressures are, and we don't take your time for granted. So thank you for taking the time to take Join Us.
- [39:29]
Podcast Narrator
A Podcast of One's Own is created by the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at the Australian National University, Canberra, with support from our sister institute at King's College, London. Earnings from the podcast go back into funding for the Institute, which was founded by our host Julia Gillard, and brings together rigorous research, practice and advocacy as a powerful force to advance gender equality and promote fair and equal access to leadership. Research and production for this podcast is by Becca Shepherd, Alice Higgins and Alina Ecot, with editing by Liz Keen from Headline Productions. If you have feedback or ideas, please email us at giwlnu. Edu Au. To stay up to date with the Institute's work, go to giwl.anu.edu au and sign up to our updates or follow us on social media Oulanu. You can also find A Podcast of One's Own on Instagram. The team at A Podcast of One's Own acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today. Thanks for listening and we hope you'll join us next time.
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Bridget Philipson
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