← A Podcast of One's Own with Julia Gillard
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- [00:00]
Ryan Reynolds
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. You know, one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's unlimited wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [00:21]
Mint Mobile / Mazda Advertiser
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- [00:36]
Cathy Lett
But if you don't have biological sisters, you've got the sisterhood, that incredible network of fiercely loyal, fabulously funny friends. You know, and you really have to nurture those friendships too, you know, let you. I'm talking about women being human Wonderbras. You know, let your cups runneth over with love for your sisters. And I would be very flat without my female friends. You're very good with your female friends. You've got a big network of female friends. I do.
- [01:02]
Julia Gillard
And they've been so vitally important to me across my life in the best of times and in the hardest of times. Yes, exactly. That's what the female friends are there for. And they always are there. Hello and welcome to the final episode of a podcast of one's own. For 2025, I'm joined by the incomparable Cathy Lett.
- [01:23]
Cathy Lett
How are you? So nice to see you.
- [01:26]
Julia Gillard
Yeah, great to see you.
- [01:27]
Cathy Lett
I miss you when you boomerang back home to Australia. I miss it when you're here in London as my ally, my koala comrade.
- [01:35]
Julia Gillard
I've been coming and going, but it's beginning to feel a lot like Christmas, isn't it? Mind you, given how early they get the Christmas stuff out these days, you could have said that anytime from August. But it is really beginning to feel a lot like Christmas.
- [01:50]
Cathy Lett
Yes, it's like a premature celebration. Ejaculation of joy, isn't it? This starts way too early, starting in about summer.
- [01:56]
Julia Gillard
It starts in. Yes, northern summer, mid winter in Australia. And you're supposed to buy stuff, buy stuff, buy stuff. But before we get to Christmas and what we're gonna be doing on our summer holidays, including lots of reading. I thought we would look back at the year that was so plenty of good books on the podcast. We've discussed Highway 13, the book of Guilt, Tell me everything Audition. Fundamentally theory and practice. You can see all of these books, they're authors in our podcast notes. What did you really enjoy reading this year, apart from our podcast books?
- [02:33]
Cathy Lett
Oh, well, I think we should give a little shout out to Gilly Cooper. I reread Rivals this year because of the TV show. And of course that great literary lioness and comic goddess died earlier this year. And what I loved about rediscovering Gilly is that, yes, so funny, she gives the reader quip lash the whole time. But she's also beneath all that mischief, she's searingly insightful about class, about sexism, about motherhood, about marriage. She's a bit like, you know, Jane Austen in Jodhpur's. So it was fantastic to rediscover her. So I loved that. Otherwise, I've been reading a lot of the books that were shortlisted for the Comedy and Women Print Prize.
- [03:18]
Julia Gillard
Oh, tell me about that prize.
- [03:19]
Cathy Lett
Oh, that's what really frustrates humorous writers like me, is that serious books get all the accolades and it is so much harder to make someone laugh than make them cry. There's like a thousand billions more words in the English language for misery than there are for joy. So the Comedy and Women Print Prize was something started by Helen Lederer to celebrate witty, gritty writers.
- [03:45]
Julia Gillard
Wow, that's fantastic.
- [03:46]
Cathy Lett
And guess who won? Who fundamentally. Oh, that we championed on this very podcast.
- [03:54]
Julia Gillard
We did champion it on this podcast. And who else in that genre would you point to? Do you want to laugh in your reading? Should you be reading?
- [04:02]
Cathy Lett
Well, especially around Christmas time, you know, we need a bit of a laugh. So I read the other ones that I read. One was called the Wedding People by Alison S. Patch. I think she pronounced her name. She's an American author. It was a very clever idea about a woman who's heartbroken, she's actually suicidal and she books into a hotel. Doesn't sound so funny so far. She books into a hotel, this hotel she wanted that she's always loved. Her husband would never take her there and she's decided to end her life. But it's a wedding party weekend and she gets mistaken to be one of the guests and she accidentally sort of gets embroiled in their lives and it saves her life. It was a very clever, funny idea. What was the other one that I really liked? Oh, there's another one that sort of gives the comedy world a me too moment. It's called Don't Make Me Laugh by Julia Rayside. And she's a stand up and she's written about the sexism in that world, you know, those men who kind of hiding in plain sight, they seem to be female friendly and, you know, very, very warm and cuddly, but actually they're just as sexist as the Neanderthal men we can see in broad daylight, you know, in all walks of life. But I always say men who call themselves new feminists, it's just a phrase they're going through. So I find them actually more objectionable than the men who aren't the sexists who just say who they are and you can see them. So it shows that comedy can be always not such a laughing matter. I thought that was a very clever idea as well. So. Yeah. And apart from that, I've been reading a lot of memoirs because I'm thinking of writing my own memoir.
- [05:44]
Julia Gillard
Oh, big breaking news.
- [05:47]
Cathy Lett
Wow. Oh, it might be a mumoir, because it's a lot of. A lot of it will be about raising my autistic child, Jules, whom you know. So I might call it. I'm thinking about calling it Let Bygones. Nice. That would work. Nice little pun.
- [06:01]
Julia Gillard
Or just Let Bygones.
- [06:04]
Cathy Lett
Oh, another one I thought is While youe're Down There, which works as coming from Australia, it works as a feminist, and it works in lots of other lovely ways as well. Right. So I've been reading. So I read Ben Elton's book, which I love. Have you read his memoir?
- [06:18]
Julia Gillard
I have not read Ben Elton's memoir. I've read a lot of Ben Elton in the past, but not his memoir.
- [06:22]
Cathy Lett
That's another writer who's so funny.
- [06:25]
Julia Gillard
Yeah, hugely funny.
- [06:26]
Cathy Lett
And tackles very serious issues all the time.
- [06:29]
Julia Gillard
I mean, it is your writing genre and the books you've just referred to. It is an incredible art form to take something, you know, so serious often and turn it comedic. I mean, that's why we liked fundamentally so much. You know, talking about women who have been, quote, unquote, Isis brides, you would think, you know, what on earth could be funny about this? And yet she made it comedic. And yet use the comedy to deepen your understanding, and you do that in your writing. Thanks.
- [06:59]
Cathy Lett
I try.
- [06:59]
Julia Gillard
No, you definitely do. You turn. I mean, you look at your last book, the Revenge Club, you know, you took a serious issue about how women at a certain stage in life are often dismissed and treated as if they're history and they've got nothing more to offer. It's a very serious issue, one that gets talked about in feminist literature very deeply. But you put a comedic spin on it, and so more people will be exposed to it. More people will think about it.
- [07:24]
Cathy Lett
Yeah. And getting back to fundamentals, I would never have picked up a book about quote unquote, ISIS brides, You know, that would be too sort of tragic and doom laden and depressing. But it opened up my eyes to a whole side of life that I need to know about. Because she was sugar coated. You know, she disarmed with charm. You know, her charm is more disarming than a UN peacekeeping force. So that's what comedy can do. It can actually entice readers into your point of view by entertaining them. So all my books are very feminist, strong feminist message in all of them. But I try and make it as funny as possible so that I can, you know, the message goes down sort of smoothly. And I admire that in all writers. Yeah. Cause that is a real art form and it is a real skill. So, yes, I read Ben Elton. I read. And he's so successful. I mean, he's brain just. It's like popcorn up there. His ideas sizzle and he's so successful. You sort of feel like a total underachiever when you read what he's done. But the flip side of that, I read Helen Lederer's memoir, which is called I'm Not Bitter.
- [08:41]
Julia Gillard
That's also a great title.
- [08:44]
Cathy Lett
And hers is all about her failures and her catastrophes and how she never quite made it. And it's so endearing. And to read them side by side was really fun, but also shows that it's much easier for men to make it in this world. You know, funny women are still often dismissed. And you still hear a lot of men saying that women aren't. Aren't funny. You know, I always say they're worried what is we're funny being funny about? You know, that they think we spend the entire time talking about the length of their members, which is not true. Cause we also talk about the width, which, you know, after childbirth, much more important. But you do still hear that trope all the time. So. And these two books side by side kind of proved it to me. So, yeah, I really enjoyed that dipping into people's lives. And it's inspiring me to be a bit to strip off to my own emotional underwear.
- [09:34]
Ryan Reynolds
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. You know, one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's unlimited wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for.
- [09:56]
Mint Mobile / Mazda Advertiser
Three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy, taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.
- [10:11]
Julia Gillard
I've got lost in your writing now. Well, I've got lost in your writing when I'm reading your books and, you know, people can't get me to work or do anything because I'm too busy reading.
- [10:20]
Cathy Lett
Oh, you do things.
- [10:21]
Julia Gillard
But this year, sometimes when I've texted you, you've been like, you know, can't talk now. I'm editing. Can't talk now. My publisher's breathing down my neck now. That's not your memoir. You must have another novel coming out.
- [10:33]
Cathy Lett
I do.
- [10:34]
Julia Gillard
Right. And so can you give us a sneak peek of that?
- [10:37]
Cathy Lett
Sure.
- [10:38]
Julia Gillard
And then we're gonna circle back to memoirs and writing.
- [10:40]
Cathy Lett
Sure. Writing a novel's like climbing Everest in stilettos carrying a disco ball. It is really hard work. And, you know, you never let on about that, but it's a lot of bum on. And I've written a novel in the year which is quite vast. So it's called. It's my 21st novel. Can you bloody well believe that?
- [10:59]
Julia Gillard
Wow.
- [11:00]
Cathy Lett
Where is my golden inkwell? Or my. In fact, at the Comedy and women print prize the other day, I had to give a lifetime achievement award to Sarah Pascoe, which I was thrilled to do, except she's written, like two books. I thought I might, and she couldn't turn up, actually, so I just accepted it on her behalf. But I think I'm just gonna keep it. I was gonna put on my mantelpiece. What do I have to do to get a lifetime achievement? Well, die.
- [11:25]
Julia Gillard
Anyway, this one's called, if you're listening to this podcast, don't tell anybody about that bit that Kathy's keeping the award.
- [11:32]
Cathy Lett
Shh. But this one's called the Sisterhood Rules, which means the rules for the sisterhood, because I'm such a passionate feminist, but also the Sisterhood rules, like the Sisterhood is powerful. You know, when we come together, we can change the world. As we just saw in the American election. Well, not the American lecture, as we.
- [11:51]
Julia Gillard
Just saw this with the election in New York City and also the governor's races. Absolutely.
- [11:56]
Cathy Lett
That it was women who came out and voted that swung it towards the Democrats. So, you know, so it's a. It's. You'll love the premise. The premise of this book is two sisters haven't spoken. They're twins and they haven't spoken for five years because one ran off with the other woman husband. But then one rings and says mum's missing and they have to come back together to find their mother who's disappeared. And when they go to her house, they find stuff, information about the Dignitas clinic in Switzerland. They find flights to Switzerland and they think, oh my. They see, and they see this information about pancreatic cancer and they think, oh my Lord, you know, Mum's ill, we've got to go and save her life. So they have to come back together to save their mother. They fly off to Switzerland and they get to the area, the dignitasic area where the clinic is. There's a ritual going on in the woods. They run down and there's their 69 year old mother dancing naked around a fire pit with a 39 year old alpine horn player. And they're like, oh. So they decide he's a conman and they have to come back together to prove to their mother that this guy's a con man. But of course there's many twists and turns and everything's not as it appears to be. And of course by the end they come back to the sisterhood. So I wanted to give. The whole world needs a hug right now. So I wanted to write a book that is totally passionate about female friendship and the love between women, but not sexual love. I mean the real bonding sisterhood that we feminists have. But I also wanted it to end on a real note of harmony and unity because I think we all need that now. So it's a funny book, but it's got, but also, you know, serious messages about the fact that, you know, women are each other's human wonder bras. Uplifting, supportive and making each other look bigger and better. I also think we are also like big knickers. We've got your ass covered. So yeah, that's what I've been toiling away on.
- [13:51]
Julia Gillard
And you're good on sister stories too. You've often talked about the special bond between sisters because of your own family experience.
- [14:01]
Cathy Lett
Yeah, three sensational sisters. And you've got a fantastic sister.
- [14:04]
Julia Gillard
I do have a fantastic sister.
- [14:05]
Cathy Lett
We're very lucky have biological sisters. You've got the sisterhood, an incredible network of fiercely loyal, fabulously funny friends, you know, and you really have to nurture those friendships too, you know, let you. I'm talking about women being human wonder bras. You Know Let your cups runneth over with love be your sisters and I would be very flat without my female friends. You know, I always joke that, you know, when I'm wearing a Wonder bra, it's called a wonder bra because when you take it off, you wonder where the hell your tits went. So never wonder where your friends have gone. You know, hold each other close. And you're very good at fitting with your female friends. You've got a big network of female friends.
- [14:42]
Julia Gillard
I do. And they've been so vitally important to me across my life. In the best of times and in the hardest of times, that's what the female friends are there for, and they always are there. So that book's coming out, but when are we gonna be up?
- [14:58]
Cathy Lett
February. It's out in February.
- [14:59]
Julia Gillard
Out in February.
- [14:59]
Cathy Lett
So I'll be dropping my own name in the most nauseating fashion all over Australia in February and then here in Britain in April.
- [15:06]
Julia Gillard
So lots to look forward to. And memoir writing. I remember writing my memoir. I'm not gonna advocate my system to you because my system was I wrote a detailed kind of chapter outline what I was gonna put in each chapter. I did get some people to help me who did chronologies of key reforms that we did in government so that I was never hassling around when I was writing, going, oh, was that, you know, intergovernmental meeting in May or was it in June? You know, I had all. But I predominantly wrote it in six frenzied weeks over summer, I'd written 30,000 words, and in six weeks, I wrote 145,000 more. I didn't do anything else. Like, didn't.
- [15:53]
Cathy Lett
Were you mainlining macchiatoes? Yeah.
- [15:56]
Julia Gillard
Well, I was writing, you know, 10, 12 hours a day. And I just got into this rhythm that, you know, you get up really early, you know, be getting up at. At sort of 5, 5, 30, writing throughout the day. Take a break. You know, I'm least productive in the sort of mid to late afternoon. Take a break, then go for a walk, come back, edit, you know, what I'd done that day and just repeated it and repeated it and repeated it. But I had this real sense if I didn't go, bleh and get it all down very quickly, that I wouldn't be able to do it, which. And, you know, for me, it was all about timing. I mean, you've been prime minister. The periods ended. I wanted to write quickly while it was still fresh for me, and therefore wrote like that. But for you, what's made you pick, like, why write your memoir now? Why not 10 years ago? Why not 10 years hence? You know, that must be an odd thing. What makes this the moment.
- [16:58]
Cathy Lett
Well, first of all, you writing in that. That fevered pitch. I like getting into that state. It's almost like a fugue state. Yes, yes. You get in the flow and you just. Yeah. And also, your book had probably been boiling under the surface of you. You've probably written it in your mind many times.
- [17:15]
Julia Gillard
Yeah. I think the, you know, the first bit, which is about why I did it, you know, which is the more personal bit, the more reflective bit. It's the bit which. I love that.
- [17:26]
Cathy Lett
Yeah.
- [17:26]
Julia Gillard
Talk about gender and some of the things that happen. I think beneath the surface, not. Not that I'd been musing in my mind I should put this in a book, but beneath the surface, the emotions had been roiling around, and so they came out in that section. And then the, you know, sort of what I did, the actual policy initiatives, you know, that's. You get to write your version of history as a former leader. Obviously other people will contest it and say, you know, you didn't. Didn't do this as well, or whatever, or it wasn't the right reform, but at least your version is there in the. In the debate. And I'm happy for people to have the debate because we always should be debating the legacy of political generations and trying to work out how we get smarter and better for the future.
- [18:14]
Cathy Lett
Yeah.
- [18:15]
Julia Gillard
So.
- [18:15]
Cathy Lett
But your smackdown speech of Abbott, that was such a perfectly worded speech, you know, smackdown. And I'm sure it had just been in your head. You'd written it many, many times, so it just came out word perfect.
- [18:28]
Julia Gillard
Yeah. I think I'd felt it. I felt the emotions, and then they came out in words.
- [18:34]
Cathy Lett
Brilliant, brilliant, iconic. I mean, remember when I had to write something about that speech in an anthology and I was researching it? It's now. That speech is now an opera. It's a ballet. Women get it tattooed on their arms. It's on their Doc Martens. It is the most iconic feminist political speech ever. So, I mean, yeah, I mean, you should wear some kind of tiara, some kind of crown as far as I'm concerned. But I tend to plan. I have to wait to see what's boiling up inside me that's making me angry, making me crazy. It's always something to do with feminism, the way women are treated when they're, you know, the sexism in the workplace or how they're sidelined when they become mothers. Or whatever. The menopause, how we're, you know, written off. We're told we're past our amused by date, the age of sexism that women endure post menopause. So whatever's making me crazy, I have to build up a head of steam. And then the characters start to come to you. And I usually plan it out chapter wise, we're just talking about this for any would be writers who want to pick up their pen. I plan it out, but then as you're writing it, it changes. But at least you've got a structure. John Waterman used to say. One of my favorite writers, John Mortimer, who wrote Rumpole, he used to say, as long as you had a beginning line and an ending, you knew where you were going, where you set off from where you were going to see what happens on the way. So different writers write in different ways. And that blurt thing where you just blurted it all down on paper, some of my writer friends do that. Others will write one chapter, then two, then go back and do 1, 2, 3, then go back and do 1-2-3, 4. So they're layering all the time. So it's whatever suits your personality and the subject matter. Yes. Because if you are feeling enraged and you're just boiling over, get it all down on the page, you can always cut it later. And I also would say, never write with a critic looking over your shoulder, ever. You can always edit.
- [20:28]
Julia Gillard
Yes.
- [20:28]
Cathy Lett
Don't censor yourself, put it all down. And then probably later you'll think, actually, I'm glad I didn't edit that. I'm keeping that in. You know, be bold, be brave.
- [20:37]
Julia Gillard
And the memoir now.
- [20:39]
Cathy Lett
Oh, why now?
- [20:40]
Julia Gillard
Why now?
- [20:40]
Cathy Lett
Well, before. Well, you know, I always joke that women should have a sensational second act and not let your guilt gland throb because we've raised the kids, you know, we've put ourselves last forever. And once you cut the psychological umbilical cord that kept you tethered to the sink, the kitchen sink, by your heartstrings and your apron strings, you do have this moment where you can actually, you know, well, put yourself first. And my term for that. I always say adventure before dementia. Not that I'm making light of dementia. Oh, my. The most terrible disease ever. But you never know what's around the corner. So I want to get it all down right now, while I remember it all. While I remember it all. And also, it's really going to be about feminism, this book. It's going to be what shaped me as a feminist. And all the stages of my life where I realized how important feminism and the sisterhood is. So that's a springboard so that I can talk about the terrible sexism I endured as a, as a surfy girl in the back of those panel vans in the Australian beachside suburbs, then in the workplace and then motherhood and raising an autistic child. It allows me to show how that informed my feminism. So that's what I'm doing.
- [22:01]
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- [23:09]
Julia Gillard
Wow. And does that mean that you're gonna be working Christmas New Year or you're gonna be taking it off?
- [23:16]
Cathy Lett
Good God, no. I've worked so hard this year.
- [23:19]
Julia Gillard
You've gotta have some time before the memoir.
- [23:21]
Cathy Lett
Oh. I also think women, you know, well, I read a fantastic article saying that joy builds resilience. Oh, so now we've got an excuse to swing off the chandelier with a cocktail between our teeth. That it's actually building us up to fight our feminist campaign. So I'm going to give very good hedonism over the summer. I'm going home, boomeranging back to Sydney, spending Christmas day with my three gorgeous sisters and my mum, who's 94, still living at home, just joined the gym. Julia just joined the gym. 94. How fabulous is that?
- [23:56]
Julia Gillard
And we said, that is extraordinary.
- [23:59]
Cathy Lett
I'm hoping I've got her designer jeans. So we're just gonna. We sit around. I don't know what you do. We sit around the pool, we eat prawns and drink champagne and we have very bad diving competitions and we do ridiculous synchronized swimming to Abba. This is just around Mum's backyard pool, you know. So it's very laid back, very happy and very hedonistic and just. Yeah, typical Aussie. Joyous, laid back. Chrissie, what about you?
- [24:25]
Julia Gillard
That sounds wonderful. I'm gonna be in Adelaide with my family, so my sister, my niece, my nephew, my great nieces, my great nephew. So we'll do all of the family stuff. But a great friend of mine, a woman called Robyn, has got me a pair of socks that on the bottom read don't talk to me on one foot, and then on the other foot it says, I'm reading. And even though. And Adelaide summer is way too hot for socks, I'm contemplating wearing them because that will be my demeanour towards the family most of my summer break, you know, don't talk to me. I'm reading. Because one of the great delights for me at the moment is I am chairing the judging panel of the Women's Prize for Fiction. So I have to read, read, read. So I've been. I'm no longer a master of my reading destiny. I don't wander around bookshops going, mmm, what would I like to read? No. Dozens of books turn up at my place and they're the ones that I need to read, so I'm getting my way through them. I'm about 35 books in now.
- [25:36]
Cathy Lett
That's probably about halfway.
- [25:38]
Julia Gillard
Yeah, well, hopefully. Hopefully. But with much more reading to go.
- [25:44]
Cathy Lett
How exciting.
- [25:44]
Julia Gillard
Yeah, that will happen between now and the end of the year. I'll be working and reading, and then when I take my Christmas, January break, I'll just be reading. So I'm looking forward to the just reading bit. And then.
- [25:59]
Cathy Lett
What a great appointment. That's so clever to put you in charge. That's wonderful.
- [26:02]
Julia Gillard
Oh, no, I'm really looking forward to it. And, you know, it's a great recognition of women's literature, women's authorship, what women write about. And it comes from the time when we could see very clearly that disproportionately, women were being excluded through all sorts of soft biases from major book prizes. I mean, hope, you know, hopefully now most of that's been addressed. And when you do see the list for things like the Booker now, the long list and the short list, you do see women authors. In fact, the Booker last year it was five women authors and one man. But that doesn't mean that there isn't still the need to promote women's writing. And the prize does that. And as we know it ends in a hell of a party in June in London to celebrate the winner.
- [26:59]
Cathy Lett
And just to say I was there with Kate Moss at the very beginning when we started this prize. I mean she's obviously run with it and made it into something genius. But it was because there were no women shortlisted for the Booker Prize. So we had a mock Booker Prize dinner where we awarded ridiculous prizes to the authors. We had a mohair self adhesive chest wig we gave to Clive James, we had a tiny, tiny knit your own condom packet we awarded to Martin Amos. Like we made it into a comedy night. But our serious point was that women were being overlooked. Even women who were published this in the review sections, they weren't being reviewed. You know, we were absolutely second class citizens in the literary world. So that's what started that. So that change in that's been 30 years I think is extraordinary and wonderful and something to celebrate and shows again that the sisterhood is powerful.
- [27:51]
Julia Gillard
The sisterhood is powerful. I do think we probably have to clarify for the audience that the Kate Moss being referred to is Kate Moss Mosse, the very noted author of wonderful historical fiction. Not the supermodel though, the Kate Moss.
- [28:10]
Cathy Lett
Who is a role model rather than a supermodel.
- [28:13]
Julia Gillard
If people want to read along. You can't quite do that yet though you can follow on the website all sorts of wonderful discussions about women's writing. But note these dates for 2026. The long list comes out on the 4th of March, so you'll then be able to see the class of books that are being very seriously considered for the prize. Then the short list comes out on the 22nd of April and the winner is announced on the 11th of June.
- [28:47]
Cathy Lett
And as an Aussie, I know you're not convict stock, but are you open to bribery? Should we put the word out there to the other authors that you know, no, no.
- [28:58]
Julia Gillard
Brown paper bags will change hands. That's not the way it's done. Definitely not. Congrats.
- [29:06]
Cathy Lett
Well, don't overlook funny books because as I said, funny books are, you know, always deemed to be a lesser literary accomplishment and they are the hardest thing.
- [29:17]
Julia Gillard
To write, so very hard to write and you know, as we said before, fundamentally did get a shot at the women's prize. Looking across, across the year, you know, we've many, many things have happened this year in world events, lots of them very heartbreaking and I don't want to end our year talking about all of that, but I did want to reflect not only on the year that we've had but more broadly on reading and women and things that we, you know, love to do and which I think deepen our empathy and understanding as we try and navigate this weird, fragmented world in which we live. One thing I did note during the year was we did lose the amazing actress Maggie Smith, who people would know predominantly from Downton Abbey, where she plays the very, very sarcastic, caustic elderly relative who is always there with the rudest quip, delivered with the best intonation. But one of the things that brought her to fame was playing Jean Brodie.
- [30:31]
Cathy Lett
In the prime of Miss Jean Brodie.
- [30:34]
Julia Gillard
The prime of Miss Jean Brodie when it was first brought to screen. Brilliant. And of course, it's a wonderful book by Muriel Spark.
- [30:42]
Cathy Lett
What a stunning writer.
- [30:44]
Julia Gillard
Yeah, a stunning writer. And I did want to just give a shout out to Muriel Spark. She's sort of been on my mind because of the loss of Maggie. Also because of a dear friend of mine. I am the proud owner of a first edition of A Far Cry From Kensington. Another wonderful Muriel Spark.
- [31:06]
Cathy Lett
I met Muriel once. No.
- [31:08]
Julia Gillard
Yes.
- [31:08]
Cathy Lett
I was in Italy, staying with John Mortimer. I'm going for gold in the name dropping Olympics now. And she had an old farmhouse there, beautiful old tumbledown farmhouse. And we went over there and the night before, the tower had been struck by lightning and it had fallen down and so we picnicked in the rubble. And she was just like her heroines, caustic, wry, dry. I had to really win her over, like she was giving me the cold eye until I made, finally I made her laugh after about an hour and a half and then we were firm friends. But she was, she was very like Jean Brody, you know, she was very like the act, enthusiastic, but also aloof and could be a little bit cold. But, oh, she was wonderful writer. If you haven't discovered Muriel Spark, slip between those covers, you know, happiness guaranteed. She's. We mustn't forget her as a writer. She mustn't be overlooked. She's brilliant. Yeah.
- [32:00]
Julia Gillard
That almost sounds like a book opening itself. I was invited. And lightning in a tower and picnicking in the room. Whose life has those things in it?
- [32:14]
Cathy Lett
I know, mine. Mine. Yeah, I would say mule Spark, but there's lots of other authors from that period too, you should rediscover. If you haven't read Cold Comfort Farm, Stella Gibbons. That's hilarious. A send up of, you know, British romantic novels, the Pursuit of Love, Nancy Mitford, and that's her hilarious swipe at the upper class English. You know, those people who keep their dogs at home and send their kids off to high class kennels called Eton and Harrow. I Capture the Castle. Jodie Smith. Have you ever read that?
- [32:47]
Julia Gillard
Yes. Yes. I love that book.
- [32:49]
Cathy Lett
Joy, isn't it?
- [32:50]
Julia Gillard
I love that book.
- [32:51]
Cathy Lett
Of course, she wrote 101 Dalmatians, but this, I prefer, much preferred this book. So, you know, it's always good to dip back into authors who were fabulously famous and see why. And enjoy their prose.
- [33:04]
Julia Gillard
Yeah. And see where so much wonderful women's literature came from. So women who in their time were often, you know, sidelined, not recognised for the prizes, not held up as major literary figures, but now we can discover them and celebrate them.
- [33:21]
Cathy Lett
Which we do on this podcast.
- [33:22]
Julia Gillard
Which we do on this podcast. And we will be back in 2026. We'll be back together in 2026 for some more book club episodes. The podcast generally will be back in 2026. And my other fabulous co host, Sarah Holland Batt, will also be back to talk Books. So it's all happening. Thank you for being a co host this year and onwards into 2026 and to all of our listeners, I hope you have a wonderful time. If you're in Australia over summer, if you're in the Northern hemisphere over winter, but whichever part of the world you're in, you have a time of joy and fun and friendship and family over the holiday season. And we will see you in 2026. Well, maybe not see you, but we'll talk to you and we will certainly listen to all of your feedback. We love it when people send in their own thoughts about books, books that they'd like us to talk about. And I will just get reading.
- [34:26]
Cathy Lett
Yeah, I was gonna say have a very well read Christmas and a very literary New Year. Next time I see you, you'll be cross eyed.
- [34:35]
Julia Gillard
Thanks, Cathy.
- [34:36]
Instacart Advertiser
Bye.
- [34:41]
Podcast Narrator / Producer
A Podcast of One's Own is created by the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at the Australian National University, Canberra, with support from our sister institute at King's College London. Earnings from the podcast go back into funding for the Institute, which was founded by our host, Julia Gillard, and brings together rigorous research, practice and advocacy as a powerful force to advance gender equality and promote fair and equal access to leadership. Research and production for this podcast is by Becca Shepherd, Alice Higgins and Alina Ecot, with editing by Liz Keene from Headline Productions. If you have feedback or ideas, please email us at giwlnu. Edu au. To stay up to date with the Institute's work, go to giwl. Anu.edu au and sign up to our updates or follow us on social media Oolanu. You can also find A Podcast of One's Own on Instagram. The team at A Podcast of One's Own acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today. Thanks for listening and we hope you'll join us next time.
- [36:11]
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- [36:32]
Cathy Lett
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