A Podcast of One’s Own with Julia Gillard

Episode: Julia Gillard and Paula Hawkins live at Hay Festival Winter Weekend

Date: December 11, 2024

Overview

In this engaging and insightful episode, Julia Gillard sits down with bestselling author Paula Hawkins at the Hay Festival Winter Weekend in Wales. Their conversation touches on Hawkins’ journey from childhood in Zimbabwe to international literary fame, the creative process behind her novels—most notably "The Girl on the Train" and her latest, "The Blue Hour"—as well as deeper explorations of gender, power dynamics, justice, and creativity. The episode offers listeners rich anecdotes and perspectives on writing, the responsibilities of authors, and the nuances of female friendship and agency in fiction.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Paula Hawkins’ Beginnings and Early Influences

• [02:47] Hawkins grew up in Zimbabwe, where access to books was limited but regular library visits nurtured her love of reading.

  “There weren’t a lot of bookshops in Harare, but the library, we went to the library every week. I got my two books every week... I loved it.” – Paula Hawkins

• Early exposure to journalists, including prominent female correspondents, inspired her initial aspirations.

  “A lot of them were women actually, so they were the first sort of role models as career women I saw. So that was the dream: to be the foreign correspondent.” – Paula Hawkins [03:26]

Transition from Journalism to Fiction

• [04:51]–[05:25] Hawkins describes how journalism shaped her fiction writing. Journalistic skills like self-editing, observation, and reading between the lines have informed her crime narratives, especially through nuanced dialogue and subtext.

  “You learn to listen to people and to observe and listen to what people are telling you, listen to what they're not telling you.” – Paula Hawkins [05:25]

The Road to "The Girl on the Train"

• Hawkins wrote four romantic comedies under a pseudonym before her breakout success. She found herself ill-suited to that genre, noting her work grew darker with each attempt.

  “...They kept getting darker and darker and more and more terrible things kept happening to all the characters. ...By the time I wrote the fourth one... it was clear this was not working.” – Paula Hawkins [06:56]

• "The Girl on the Train" materialized from Hawkins wrestling with personal struggles and a fascination with unreliable memory.

  “The bit about it that intrigued me really was the not remembering what you've done... it completely warped her sense of guilt and responsibility.” – Paula Hawkins [09:08]

• The novel’s immense success took her by surprise, changing her life both professionally and personally.

  “It’s also quite overwhelming to have that happen to you, particularly if you’re a person who's used to... just sitting there tapping away, quiet and quite introverted.” – Paula Hawkins [11:47]

Hollywood Adaptation and Artistic Interpretation

• Hawkins sold the movie rights before "The Girl on the Train" was published and had little involvement with the film, though she enjoyed visiting the set and observing the artistic translation of her work.

  “It’s a weird experience to see something translated to screen because it is completely different from what you imagined. But... that can be really interesting.” – Paula Hawkins [14:16]

Feminism and Female Characters in Novels

• [16:35] The conversation addresses feminism in Hawkins’ writing, especially in "Into the Water," which centers women who defy societal expectations.

  “They were both very independent women, both very strong women, both troublesome in their way... It was all about that thing of women who don't do what they're told...” – Paula Hawkins

Writing Process and Creative Inspirations

• Hawkins prefers a disciplined, office-hours approach to writing, rather than waiting for bursts of inspiration.

  “I just... sit down at my desk at eight in the morning like a normal person and write...” – Paula Hawkins [09:08]

• Place and setting frequently act as characters themselves in her books. For "The Blue Hour," Hawkins was inspired by the tidal islands of Brittany and fascinated by the psychology of self-imposed isolation.

  “I just loved the idea of setting something there... beautiful and it’s remote and you can get trapped there... it has all these locked room possibilities.” – Paula Hawkins [21:49]

Art, Power, and Friendship in "The Blue Hour"

• The novel explores the dynamic between Vanessa, a reclusive artist, and Grace, who becomes her friend and companion, set against the vivid landscape of a remote Scottish island. Hawkins extensively researched female artists and artistic practices to lend authenticity.

  “I spent a long time immersing myself in the world of art... imagining myself into the life of a visual artist.” – Paula Hawkins [24:53]

• The book investigates numerous overlapping power dynamics—between artist and patron, friends and lovers, even among art world players.

  “The central relationship of the book is Vanessa and Grace... I really wanted to dig into how the power in a friendship can shift over time.” – Paula Hawkins [29:31]

Justice and Moral Complexity in Crime Novels

• Julia Gillard probes Hawkins’ approach to the concept of justice and resolution in her novels, given that Hawkins’ stories resist clean, formulaic endings.

  “I don't like things to be too neat... one of the big questions I keep... asking is... who gets what they deserve in this situation and how does that work?” – Paula Hawkins [33:52]

• Hawkins prefers to focus on “why” people do terrible things, rather than police procedure or clear-cut morality plays.

  “I'm always interested in... how ordinary people... for some unfortunate coincidence of events, have brought themselves to a point where they do something Terrible or they are involved in something terrible.” – Paula Hawkins [33:52]

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On writing unlikeable but compelling characters:

  “I do get that the reader has to be compelled by them. You can’t find them so insufferable that you don't want to spend any time with them...” – Paula Hawkins [43:08]

• On the pressure for plot twists:

  “A twist has got to be a way of making you, like, turn around and look back over the rest of the book and go, oh, and suddenly see something in a new light... If you’re just inserting like, oh, and then this other thing happened... without laying the groundwork, that doesn’t work.” – Paula Hawkins [50:41]

• On killing off characters:

  “I think it should be difficult. That’s the thing. If it were easy, then it’s cheap, isn’t it?” – Paula Hawkins [53:56]

• On isolation and creativity:

  “That idea of complete isolation and being somewhere beautiful and quiet is extremely appealing to me and I do think it would be very conducive to work for some of the time. But then... there’s this whole push and pull... how much do you also need to be in a community to get inspiration?” – Paula Hawkins [52:19]

• Vanessa’s last words through her diary in "The Blue Hour":

  “A short life, not always a happy one, but free. I've been free. Here on my island, I escaped the drudgery of domesticity, the violence of men. I worked with my hands, loved fiercely with my body. Thank God. Thank God I realised in the nick of time that I didn't want to live the life I was expected to. Thank God I bolted. Thank God I ran. Thank God for my island. For Eris.” – Paula Hawkins, reading from her novel [38:55]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:47] Paula Hawkins on childhood in Zimbabwe and early reading
• [03:26] Aspiring to journalism, role models, and growing up
• [06:56] Writing early novels, road to "The Girl on the Train"
• [09:08] Creative process, inspiration for unreliable narrator
• [11:47] Adjusting to fame after massive commercial success
• [16:35] Feminism and constructing strong, non-conformist women characters
• [21:49] The Blue Hour: setting, inspiration, the role of place
• [24:53] Researching visual art for literary authenticity
• [29:31] Friendship and shifting dynamics in "The Blue Hour"
• [33:52] Approaches to justice, moral ambiguity in crime fiction
• [38:55] Paula reads Vanessa’s diary from "The Blue Hour," a reflection on freedom and legacy
• [43:08] On writing "unlikeable" characters and reader engagement
• [50:41] Literary twists: restraint and narrative purpose
• [53:56] The difficulty and ethics of killing off characters
• [55:12] What Hawkins reads for pleasure and inspiration
• [56:55] Book recommendations for the end of 2024

Audience Q&A Highlights

• Do you like your characters?
  Paula reflects she may not like all her characters, but she must connect with them:

  “There has to be some point of connection with them, so I can understand why they do what they do.” [43:08]

• How do you pick character names?
  Mostly drawn from books around her, often mixing and matching.
• Do you imagine your books as movies during writing?
  Not consciously, though some scenes feel cinematic in retrospect; still, her process is word-focused. [45:02]
• On pressure to write plot twists:
  She avoids twists for their own sake; groundwork is critical. [50:41]
• Could she live alone on an island like her characters?

  “I know it’s a ludicrous fancy... If I was alone on an island, I would never sleep. I would lie in bed awake listening to the creek on the stair, you know, imagining the person with the axe. I’d be terrified.” – Paula Hawkins [52:19]

• Killing off characters:
  It’s emotionally difficult and should feel earned, not cheap. [53:56]
• Favourite recent reads:
  Recommends Charlotte Wood’s "Stone Yard Devotional" and Isabella Hamad’s "Enter Ghost", among others. [56:55]

Closing Thoughts

This episode provides a nuanced look behind the scenes of literary creation, the emotional realities of sudden fame, and the durable power of storytelling, especially when it centers layered, complicated women. Both Gillard and Hawkins bring warmth, humour, and insight, appealing to fans of literature, feminism, and anyone interested in the arts’ intersection with society.