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- [00:01]
Julia Gillard
At your job, do you ever have.
- [00:03]
Josephine Linden
To deal with a nose roller? How about a snub pulley? Well, if you're installing a new conveyor.
- [00:08]
Julia Gillard
Belt system, dealing with the different components.
- [00:10]
Josephine Linden
Can sound like you're speaking a foreign language.
- [00:13]
Julia Gillard
Luckily, you've got a team ready to help.
- [00:16]
Josephine Linden
Grainger's technical product specialists are fluent in maintenance, repair and operations, so whenever you.
- [00:22]
Julia Gillard
Want to talk shop, just reach out.
- [00:24]
Josephine Linden
Call clickgrainger.com or just stop by Grainger.
- [00:27]
Julia Gillard
For the ones who get it done.
- [00:36]
Josephine Linden
There's nothing better than sitting with a real book and being able to crack the spine of a new book. And I hate people who dog ear pages, so I have lots of Aussie bookmarks and really enjoy using that for marking where I'm reading. There's nothing better than a book.
- [00:59]
Cathy Lett
Hello and welcome to this year's final episode of A Podcast of One's own. It's been a big year for us as always. We have had an incredible raft of guests from sports people to politicians, from authors to advocates, and we introduced our book club which has been so much fun. I've loved delving into some fantastic books with my fabulous co hosts Cathy Lett and Sarah Holland Batt, and I want to take this opportunity to say a very big thank you to both of them for joining me this season and bringing such intelligence, warmth and humour to our conversations. I'm very excited to continue our book club in 2025 for our last episode of 2024. I'm thrilled to be joined by my dear friend Josephine Linden. Before Kathy, Sarah and all of you joined me in our book club, Josephine and I were in a tiny book club of two. We have been friends for many years and we manage to catch up quite regularly. Even though she lives in New York where she is a leader in financial services and she flies the Aussie flag high, especially by supporting young Aussie women who make the move to that incredible city. Josephine is also a voracious reader. She certainly outpaces me and at the end of each year she shares her list of top fiction and non fiction reads and you may have seen me put it in my social media in years gone by. But this year we're going one step further and sitting down together to talk about our top books of 2024 and the books we can't wait to read in 2025. So Josephine, thank you so much for joining me from New York City. My first question of course is going to be what are you reading now?
- [02:52]
Josephine Linden
Well, I've just finished reading the most exciting books this afternoon, it's Sunday here in New York. But before I tell you that, let me just of all, thank you so much for having me on this. I have been watching and listening to a podcast of one's own until you first started. And, and every single one of the sessions that you have done with so many different speakers has been interesting and articulate, and I've always learned so much from each one of those. So thank you on behalf of all your listeners for doing this podcast and thanks for having me on today.
- [03:24]
Cathy Lett
That's very kind of you. Thank you, Josephine.
- [03:27]
Josephine Linden
So what have I finished reading? I have decided that since we are almost into the holiday season, it is time to switch off. And I am into what I would call escapism. Page turners, beach books. Some people will call it trash, but I will call it mystery novels. And so I have been really involved in reading books by Joel Dicker. And today was the enigma of room 222, which was written a couple of years ago. And it is a fascinating story of a hotel and a murder mystery. And until three quarters of the way through the book, we don't even know who is murdered. And so if anybody wants that kind of book, read that. And also read the Affair of Harry Cubert.
- [04:14]
Cathy Lett
I've read that one, the Affair of Harry Cubert, but I haven't read the one you've just referred to. So that's going on the summertime reading list. You've got to have some, you know, beach easy reads this time of year in Australia. I've just finished Robert Harris's new book, Precipice. He of course, writes historical fiction, and that name might be ring a bell in people's ears because he's being referred to all the time at the moment because his blockbuster book Conclave has now been made into a big new movie with all the stars in it. And maybe this one will be at some point, too. It's the story of Prime Minister Henry Asquith, who writes to and has a relationship with a socialite and aristocrat, a woman called Venetia Stanley. And of course, Asquith was, was leader of the UK in the years leading up to World War I and the first couple of years of the war itself. And the letters that Robert Harris uses, the letters from the Prime Minister to the young woman to Venetia, these are real letters. He's turned them up in a historical archive and they really tell a story of obsession and quite cavalier attitudes to secret information. So I found it a good read. You would have Read Robert Harris in the past, Josephine.
- [05:39]
Josephine Linden
I have. I loved Conclave. I loved Pompeii, and I love the Officer and a Spy. I mean, he really gets into historical novels, which I think is intriguing and really makes us always learn. If you can't learn something from a book, then it's not worth reading it.
- [05:57]
Cathy Lett
Yep.
- [05:57]
Josephine Linden
But I'll give you another book that I thought was really intriguing and totally different. And that is a murder mystery that occurred in, of all places, Macau. And it's a book written by a man called Pete Rose. And it is, again, historical fiction, but it is actual factual, and it's all about the months before the start of the Pacific War, where John Reeves, who was sent as a British consul in Macau and actually by mistake was really started to be in there. And then all of a sudden came the attacks on Pearl Harbor, Hong Kong and Singapore. And within six months, Japan had occupied, as we both know, most of Southeast Asia. But then the Japanese army got to Macau and they stopped and they left it alone. So from 1941 to 1945, Macau was actually an island of neutrality. It was almost like an Asian Casablanca. And this man, John Reeves, found himself the only Allied representative in thousands of miles of Japanese occupied Asia. I really enjoyed the book because it was historical faction, but fiction rather, but based very closely in the historical record and huge amount of research in archives all over the world. And despite, I think, the hundreds and thousands of books about Second World War, this is the first time this story has been told. So the Good War of Consul Reeves, written by Peter Rose, thoroughly recommended.
- [07:24]
Cathy Lett
That sounds fantastic. And we will make sure all of these get referred to in the show notes so people can pick through and see what they want to read. And I actually think faction is a good word because there are some historical fictions that are so accurate that you are learning the history even as you're following a rollicking story. And that is fantastic. How do you work out what to read next? What makes you pick the next book?
- [07:50]
Josephine Linden
When I hear what you're reading, then I want to go and run and read it. When I see what the New York Times has recommended or the Wall Street Journal, I will get that. I found that book reading is one of the most wonderful ways for making friends, because everybody has read some book sometime maybe 20 years ago, but it gives me a chance to really enjoy reading. And it's an escape, but you escape by talking to people. And the more you talk to one person about a book, then somebody else will come back with another book. And so I just find it an extraordinary way of contacting with people and keeping in touch and with different people telling me their recommendations and then my recommending it and it goes on and on.
- [08:36]
Cathy Lett
Yeah, I agree with that. Well, obviously, I get a lot of my recommendations from you. I also look at the New York Times and I find that I get on sort of reading jags. I read one book and then that leads me to a series of related books. This year in particular, I kind of started the year reading Hilary Mantel. It was called A Memoir of My Former Self, of course. Hilary Mantel, a fabulous fiction writer. She famously wrote the Thomas Cromwell trilogy that starts with Wolf hall and that's gone into many iterations in film. And A Memoir of My Former Self was put together by her publisher, and it was all of these essays that she'd written, and she referred to a number of authors in those essays. And so that took me on this sort of spiral of reading authors she read, because I was such a huge fan of Hilary Mantel. And so I've been reading a lot of UK women authors from some time back, women like Elizabeth, Jane Howard and Jane Gardam, particularly her old Filth trilogy, where Filth stands for Failed in London, Try Hong Kong. And they're all great reads. And then I got on a French Revolution Jag and read Hilary Mantel's A Place of Safety, which is set in the French Revolution. And I reread A Tale of Two Cities by Dickens, of course, and then both of us got on a Booker Jag. And what I mean by that is the books that were shortlisted for the Booker Prize, and this year, amazingly, of the six books shortlisted, five were by women. So I said at the start, you out read me. And this is gonna prove the point. Of the six books I've read, the five that were written by women. But of course, you've read all six. What did you think about the Booker shortlist?
- [10:40]
Josephine Linden
I thought it was terrific. First of all, the fact that it was five women. Secondly, there was an Australian on there. Thirdly, they were all actually good. I've read previous Booker short lists and some of them, they're in a different planet now. The winner actually literally was on a different planet. And we can come to Orbital in a minute. But the reality is that they're not always enjoyable books, and I think they may be good literature, but I'm maybe not bright enough to appreciate the literature. But in any case, I don't really get into them. By the way, do you know who next year's judge is going to be.
- [11:17]
Cathy Lett
No, I don't. What's the news?
- [11:19]
Josephine Linden
Well, this year's judge was one of the main judges with Edmund De Waal, as we know. He wrote the Hair with Amber Eyes, which was a wonderful book that you and I both enjoyed, and then wrote letters to Komondo which was quite extraordinary. But next year's for all you Sex and the City fans, is going to be Sarah Jessica Parker. This apparently has been a life dream of hers, but she will be one of the three judges of next year.
- [11:48]
Cathy Lett
Do you think that they are trying to land some more popular fiction choices? Cause I agree with you. I mean, I, I can't say I've always read my way through the shortlist. I most certainly have not. But each year I've tended to pick a few and to read the winner and sometimes you would have to say they, you know, pretty, pretty labour intensive reads. Whereas this year I like some of them more than others, but all of them very highly readable and maybe having, well, Edmond Duval, of course, you know, the Hair With Amber Eyes is a beautifully written, highly readable book. So he knows what that looks like because he's done it himself. And maybe having Sarah Jessica Jessica Parker is about, you know, readability and profile.
- [12:40]
Josephine Linden
Yes, I totally agree with you. And each one of these books, actually I had read the one by Yao Vandeloyde before it had been shortlisted and I think that the ability to read these books and enjoy them this year was much better than previous years. It was one, as you know, by Samantha Harvey, who wrote Orbital, which was extraordinary. It was basically following the lives of six international astronauts who were aboard a space station and orbiting Earth for a day during their nine month mission. And the themes were very beautiful. There was connection, there was beauty, the fragility of life from the perspective of each of these astronauts. I like the fact that it was really a clear and intriguing viewpoint on different experiences and emotions. There were themes of connections, as you saw the exploration of human connection and isolation in space. And that resonated very deeply with me. And just the style of writing was glorious. And so I understand why she won it. It was beautifully written, it was an interesting story and it was contained and the emotions that came out of it were very deep and profound.
- [13:52]
Cathy Lett
Yeah. And we should say to people, I think I agree with all of that and I think it's a book that very much responds to the current zeitgeist where we're all so anxious about what's happening in our world and politics and geopolitics. And conflict and war, and to get the perspective of these astronauts looking, you know, from many countries on Earth, looking back on this one fragile globe, where they're musing about all of the connections of humanity. Because, of course, when you're up there in space, you don't see anything that looks like a national border. It, I think, sort of captured the mood of the moment, and we should say to people, too, it is a slim volume. It's beautifully written, but it's a short book, so if you're looking for something to really escape into, if you can lose the relatives for just a few hours in an afternoon, you'll read your way through it. Of the list, I actually enjoyed Creation Lake the best, which is a story about a woman who's a private spy, a mercenary in that sense, and her job is to go undercover into various organizations for private sector clients. And she goes undercover into a group in France which, if you wanted to take the benign view, were just people who are interested in the environment and want to live an alternate lifestyle. If you took the more harsh view, which she and her employer takes are potentially eco terrorists. And this group has a guru who lives in a cave. And because she's intercepting all the correspondence, a lot of the book is actually the letters of this guru who's really asking some deep questions, particularly the question about what does it mean to be human? It's by Rachel Kushner. Did you like Creation Lake?
- [15:57]
Josephine Linden
I did. I liked the intrigue, as you say. I mean, following this woman, Sadie Smith, who was very clearly an American secret agent. And it took me a while to get into, I will say, the first three chapters. I didn't know where I was going or what was happening. And then all of a sudden, it went boom as she starts this sort of mysterious figure, Bruno, and she gets to know him and start talking about the different charismatic leaders. And then when it goes back in time to Bruno's family and how he came from, and some of the descriptions, particularly, I'm thinking of the description of when there was this German killing and they had to take the hat off, he took the helmet off, and there were lice in there. And just the image of these lice wandering around this man's head was so graphic and so intriguing as you sort of think it through. But I thought they really. The themes of morality, the community, environmentalism, and particularly today's world was just beautifully done, very vivid writing, very descriptive style, and the plot was just fascinating.
- [17:08]
Cathy Lett
Now is your time to get into.
- [17:10]
Josephine Linden
A new Dr. Horton, home by taking advantage of their national red tag sales.
- [17:14]
Cathy Lett
Event going on right now through January 19th.
- [17:17]
Josephine Linden
Stop by any of their participating communities.
- [17:19]
Cathy Lett
And find select red tag homes pricing.
- [17:23]
Josephine Linden
So whether you're buying your first home.
- [17:24]
Cathy Lett
Or looking for an upgrade, you don't.
- [17:26]
Josephine Linden
Want to miss the red tag sales.
- [17:28]
Cathy Lett
Event going on right now. Discover the Dr. Horton difference@drhorton.com that's Dr. Horton.com Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal Housing Opportunity builder. And of course we should come to the Aussie, because to have an Aussie woman on the shortlist is something to be incredibly proud of. And the book is Stonyard Devotional by Charlotte Wood. And I think I'm right in saying it's on its way to being a Netflix series or something like that. It's a very different style of book in many ways. It's. It struck me as particularly towards the end, more a series of vignettes from life. But the life that he's being told is an extraordinary one of a woman who decides, even though she is not devout, she is not a believer in God, to go and live in a nunnery, a remote country nunnery, and, you know, to reflect back on her life and who she is. And a lot of the imagery of it is built around this hideous mouse plague that sweeps across the countryside, including through where they live and the mice eating everything. And there are very vivid descriptions of how not it's not a few mice, it's thousands and thousands of mice are sort of eating everything in their path. And it brings into it fractured relationship from her past, a school relationship where there were some instances of bullying, where she was unfortunately on the side of the bullies. And she deeply regrets those moments. So it's a lot about the relationship between women and how women work. Those moments of tension through.
- [19:35]
Josephine Linden
It took me a while to get into it and once I got into it, I really got into it. The scenes with the mice were nightmarishy. And I think she really dug deep into some of these very, again, very big issues of environmental and sort of the pandemic without making it feel preachy and forced. And so I enjoyed the way she did. I will say it took me time. It was what I would call a slow burn, but the intensity started to build up and really got under your skin. And then this is what's so exciting about reading it made me want to go back and learn more about Charlotte Wood. So I read the Weekend, which I enjoyed, and then the Natural Way of Things, and she won the Stella Prize for that. She's A wonderful writer, and I think this got a long way to go. So I'm excited to see what her.
- [20:25]
Cathy Lett
Next book would be and we should whiz through the final three. So there was the Safekeep, which is a story which is propelled by the events of World War II and the taking over of a home that was owned by a Jewish family by another family. And the children of that family really never been told the story about how it was that they came to live in a beautiful home with all of the things still there. The books, the crockery, the toys, everything. So this sense of how they had dispossessed that family grows through the book and sort of holds the storyline together. Then there's Held by Anne Michaels, which is. I found it the most difficult one to read. It is a sort of spiral through history where characters have some connections, but you're learning about their lives. And I found it a more difficult read. And then the last on the list, James by Percival Everett. I haven't read it all and you have, but it's really the other side of the Huckleberry Finn story, isn't it?
- [21:47]
Josephine Linden
It is, and I really enjoyed it. I was expecting not to because I did not realize I didn't like Huckleberry Finn, I didn't like Tom Sawyer, and I guess I didn't really understand them being Australian. They are clearly American classics, but they weren't my kind of classics. And so I didn't expect to enjoy James, but I loved it. It was innovative. The narrative was brilliant. He basically takes Jim, who was in Huckleberry Finn, and makes him James. And so you're basically following a man who was a slave and his journey to freedom as he tries to escape with Huck. And it turns out, and this is a spoiler alert, but it turns out that he is actually related to Huck. And so they're fighting against systemic oppression and they're trying to reunite and protect the family during the Civil. Just before the Civil War. I thought by giving Jim becoming James a voice, it was sophisticated, was incredibly, bitingly satirical. And the transformation really turned to me a character who has been seen through a very narrow lens into a much more realized individual with very strong thoughts and philosophical depth. So I really thought that we were challenging what was a literary stereotype of looking at historical representations of black characters in previous American literature to sort of reconsider and turn it upside down. Think of it from the black person's life rather than the white person's life. It was very good and it's Worth reading. So I encourage you to read it maybe over the Christmas break.
- [23:23]
Cathy Lett
On that note, I would also encourage people just in terms of the lives that people live. Obviously, James is a fiction, but a true life story. I had the great privilege of interviewing June Oscar this year and her story of the start of her life and the family she comes from. And her father being the station owner, a white man who has his own family and then effectively has a family with her mother, including June. But June and her mother and her brother are turned out of the station when the station owner's wife works all of this out and is angry about it. So just a real life story about race and the things that it shapes. So I definitely refer people to that. What did you think of the others? What did you think of the Safekeep and of Held?
- [24:26]
Josephine Linden
I really enjoyed the Safekeep. It was a story, as you said, set just in World War II, but a lot of relationships. Who really was the two characters? Who was Isabel? Who was Eva? Isabel had a very emotional journey. She navigated a very lonely life. And then all of a sudden, Eva arrives, and they didn't get on so well. As time gets on, they both start to appreciate each other much more than they had in the past. And so you started to get a narrative which really was full of tension and symbolism from the house. And then, of course, the real story comes out. I really enjoyed the Safekeep. I had read it actually, before it got onto the Booker shortlist. I found the atmospheric writing and the complexity of the characters brilliant. I enjoyed understanding what Isabel was trying to do. She had a very lonely life. And then all of a sudden, her brother finds somebody to have a relationship with Eva, and that has disrupted poor Isabel's routine and starts to awaken suppressed feelings. And at the end of it, Eva and Isabelle have a very strong relationship. And so this intricate trail of that relationship set against this very richly described backdrop of this house, and then they find out what the house really is and the keeper of secrets. And that's where you get the title of the Safekeep. So I strongly encourage people to read that book.
- [25:56]
Cathy Lett
And the Held, that was my least liked. Okay. I think we're united in that, then.
- [26:03]
Josephine Linden
I mean, I didn't get it. There's like, they go from French battlefields to Suffolk to Finland. Yes, it's a great poetry book, but I didn't get it.
- [26:15]
Cathy Lett
Okay, well, I think we agreed on that. So plenty to pick out of the Booker list.
- [26:21]
Josephine Linden
Foreign.
- [26:26]
Julia Gillard
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- [27:27]
Cathy Lett
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- [27:33]
Josephine Linden
Course room to the workplace.
- [27:35]
Cathy Lett
A different future is closer than you.
- [27:36]
Josephine Linden
Think with Capella University.
- [27:38]
Julia Gillard
Learn more at Capella Edu.
- [27:56]
Cathy Lett
And I would hope we can say plenty to pick out of the book club titles and your fiction list which you've put out this year. And they've got quite a few in common. So the books that we've talked about on the book club and which also appear on your list include. We've got. Let me make sure we've got this right. You've put on the list. There are Rivers in the sky by Elif Shafak, who of course I not only interviewed in the podcast, but we talked about her book. The Blue Hour is one where I've had the opportunity to interview Paula Hawkins and that's a podcast too. We also discussed, you know, these are not on your list, but I know that you've read them. Wifedom, the Fraud. You did put the Sun Walks down on your list. I think.
- [29:00]
Josephine Linden
The Sun Walks down by Fiona MacFarlane.
- [29:02]
Cathy Lett
Yes, yes. There's also the Wren. The Wren Blue Sisters. You've read all of these. Talk about why you picked the ones that you picked as the best.
- [29:14]
Josephine Linden
Well, before I do that, why don't I go to the books that I didn't include on there that you have mentioned. Wiefdom was actually on my book list last year. I think. Anna Funder, I love everything that she has ever written. I just wish that she would write more. And Anna, if you're listening to this, write another book.
- [29:32]
Cathy Lett
That's an instruction.
- [29:33]
Josephine Linden
I thought it was wonderful. I mean she really took a life that most people hadn't heard of with Eileen O'shaughnessy George Orwell's life wife, rather, and using newly discovered Letters to explore her contributions to his work and the complexities of being a woman. I mean, it was just beautifully, beautifully written. So well done. Anna, let's talk about the Wren. The Wren.
- [29:56]
Cathy Lett
Okay.
- [29:57]
Josephine Linden
And let's talk about why I didn't include it. I have a true confession. I do not like Irish literature. I don't understand Irish literature. I'm Scottish, you're Welsh, we're both Australian. But let me tell you, I mean, I have tried. I read this year. I read Paul Murray's the Bee Sting. I read Sally Rooney's Beautiful World, Where Are youe? I read Intermezzo. It's challenging, it's introspective, it's pessimistic. It's so depressing. Every Irish book talks about a family struggles with economic ruin, personal crisis, and to me, it's emotionally taxing. I enjoy reading, but I don't want to get depressed. So I find that Irish works really romanticize suffering. I find it frustrating. And if you want to talk about the Wren. The Wren, go ahead, but it's never going to be my pick.
- [30:55]
Cathy Lett
That's hilarious and I think, in many ways insightful. I know what you mean about a lot of Irish literature. Literature. But I think there are, you know, you let me put it this way. You wouldn't want to read too much of it in a row, particularly over your summer holidays in Australia. I think that could put a depressing pall over what should be a beautiful blue Aussie sky. But I think to dip into it the way I did with the Ren. The Wren, there's, you know, beautiful writing. Obviously, in that book. There's poetry. I thought there were some laugh out loud lines, particularly when they were musing about Australian animals and things that can kill you. And there are some truths there, too. But I'm. I get why you've come to that decision. So in. In our shared reading, I think we've had some different views. I know you were not particularly fond of Zadie Smith's the Fraud, whereas I really liked that book. And interestingly, Cathy Lett, when we talked about it in the book club, was more skeptical of it than I was. And yet we're in furious agreement about some things, like Rivers in the sky, the Alief Shafak I know you loved as much as I loved.
- [32:24]
Josephine Linden
Well, let's start with the Fraud. The first books that Zadie Smith wrote, I thought were remarkable. This one, there was just, to me, too much ambiguity and focus. I thought there was nuanced storytelling, but there were so many moments when the narrative just lost focus. And I didn't understand what Eliza's journey. I mean, this was a story of a woman called Eliza Touchet, who was a Scottish housekeeper and a cousin to a novelist, William Ainsworth. And what she's trying to do is understand the complexity of 19th century society and identity against the backdrop of a sensational Tichborne trial, which is actually factual. And that sort of questions the whole nature of truth and deception. So I liked how Zadie Smith did focus on Touche. But what I couldn't really get was a connection between her personal story and the overarching themes of fraud and authenticity. She reminds me in so much of her writing, like Dickens, but I think Dickens has a stronger paintbrush and she just seems to take that brush off too often without fully penetrating the canvas. If I might just continue that metaphor.
- [33:39]
Cathy Lett
It'S interesting you should mention Dickens. We did discuss him during the book club episode where we discussed wifedom, because I went from wifedom getting on one of my reading jags to read a nonfiction book about marriages. It was called Parallel Lives, and it certainly recounted how Dickens mistreated his wife. So there's a book to be written there. Maybe Anna Funder could write one from her point of view. That could be the next Anna Funder book. Anna, if you're listening, there's a suggestion. You also make suggestions on nonfiction. Just tell us a little bit about those because you've got an interesting list there, and we're definitely putting your list out. I saw that you recommended the Nate Silver book On the Edge. People probably remember that name after the year. That was because Nate is a well known pollster in the US and he's moved on to being someone who talks in more theoretical, even philosophical terms about the nature of chance.
- [34:50]
Josephine Linden
Well, as we all know, Nate Silver became famous through his538blog and correctly predicted two elections, not so much this election. And he's moved on, as you say. But he wrote this book about the art of risking everything. And what that really does is it explores sort of the mindset of risk, risk takers in fields including gambling and technology and ethics. He spends a whole section on talking about how to play poker. So if anybody's going to Las Vegas, you should read the book. Because he talks about the difference between what he calls the Riverian is somebody who plays that river card with the more cautious villagers, which I happen to be one of those. And he really examines the implications of those decisions on society. I really enjoyed the insightful analysis and he gave a very good examination, which is what you'd expect from Nate Silver of talking about risk taking across so many different domains from playing poker to the financial world. And in my view, his writing style makes it clear, makes it accessible, easy to understand, and makes very complex concepts easier and engaging for a broader audience. What I really like about him is he uses real life examples from sports to finance and illustrates how risk can lead to both successes and failures. So I would thoroughly recommend reading that book again. It's on the the Art of Risking Everything by Nate Silver.
- [36:19]
Cathy Lett
We should just say we are not encouraging people to go to Las Vegas and Campbell, but if you choose to do so, read the book first. We obviously will put out the full list, but I just want to pick on one more of your non fiction choices. I haven't read it, but the title certainly drew my attention. When We Cease to Understand the World, that's a title to conjure with in the modern age. Can you tell us just a little bit about that book?
- [36:48]
Josephine Linden
Sure. This is a book written by a man called Benjamin laboutit and it really explores lives of scientists who have made groundbreaking discoveries and at the same time advancing human knowledge. I found the characterization of each of those writers and the scientists, how they added and led to sort of moral dilemmas and devastating consequences, and took historical facts with fictional narratives and allowed us to reflect on scientific progress. And with so much going on, and particularly in this country right now, it really did become intriguing. It put a scientific development within the historical backdrop very impressively and added a tremendous depth to the narrative and enhanced the understanding of why those discoveries mattered.
- [37:36]
Cathy Lett
Right? That sounds like a must read. I must admit I didn't read that much nonfiction this year. I need to lift my game next year, but I would do a particular shout out to Clare Wright. Anything Clare Wright has written is worth reading. She tells us so much about Australian history, particularly from a feminist perspective. But her most recent work is about the BARC petitions which are on display in Australian Parliament House and she canvasses the question how the people of Yirkala, who brought the BARC petition as a protest movement, changed the course of Australian democracy. So I would certainly shout out to that book and then looking ahead to 2025. Josephine, what? What are you looking forward to reading? I know I've got a few non fiction on my list having let the ball lapse on nonfiction this year. One's called Patriarchy Inc. By Cordelia Fine and she's a remarkable feminist, feminist, academic and everything. She's written about patriarchy, about how we understand masculinity and femininity. It's very science based but very readable. A mate of mine called Rebecca Winthrop also has a book coming out, the Disengaged Helping Kids Learn Better, Feel Better and Live Better. And all of my friends with teenage children I think are going to snatch that book up very quickly. I'm kind of looking forward to and I don't know what you think about this. On the nonfiction side, I'm looking forward to all of the tell alls which will inevitably emerge from the campaigns in the 2024 presidential election. I'm sure we're going to get the inside story of everything and I'll be keen to read those. Are there non fictions you're looking forward to or have you mainly got fiction on your list for next year at this stage?
- [39:48]
Josephine Linden
Well, on my nonfiction, I am looking forward to reading the Elements of Marie Curie by Dava Sobel. I actually attended a session recently by our mutual friend Angela Sain, who interviewed Dava Sobel. And it's again a fascinating story, just like we talked about about with the science books about what the elements of Marie Curie were. And she really structures a book around the chemical elements that defined Curie's career, which to me seems brilliant and also talks about what happened after her husband died. And that I think will be very intriguing. In addition, I am going to India next week and so I am reading in my book, although I'm I must say it's over 900 pages. It looks like reading Mountain Shadow by Gregory David Roberts, which is a sequel to Shantaram, which I thought was a fabulous book, a real vivid portrayal of Bombay and its rich storytelling. So I'm off there. So I think it's going to give me a sort of heads up of adventure, conflict and sort of the deep emotional journeys that one can see in India. Along with that, I'm also reading got on my book list to read William Dalrymple's the Anarchy.
- [41:05]
Cathy Lett
Yeah, he does that podcast too, doesn't he? I think it's called Empire, which is very much worth listening to. And on your fiction list, what are you really looking forward to? So I must admit I haven't done that much research yet about what is coming out in 2025, but I am waiting for Wild Dark shore by Charlotte McConaughey. I read her two books this year. She she kind of weaves environmental research into her novels. They're fiction. I enjoyed both of Them. One is about a woman going in pursuit of birds, the last migration of an endangered species of birds. And one is the story of a woman when they're reintroducing wolves into Scotland. And they are, you know, the science in them I think is robust, but they are fiction but very, very readable. And she is Australian. So I'm really looking forward to that book, but I haven't done too much other research yet. I'm just going to let 2025 break over me and see what it brings and it will inevitably bring your recommendations. So what do you think should be on the list fiction wise for 2025?
- [42:25]
Josephine Linden
Well, I am reading Lola in the Mirror talking about Australian books, which is written by Trent Dalton. So I just picked that up to also take with me. And then I'm going to read the Wide Wide Sea by Hampden Sides, which is all about Captain Cook and his discovery of a country called Australia. So that's definitely in my pile of books to take with me. As you can tell, my luggage is going to be quite heavy right now. And then I've also got a couple of Frederick Backman, remember he wrote the book the Man Called Of. So I have some of his short stories that I'm looking forward to reading. And then the one that I'm most looking forward to reading is where I started and that's the Alaska Sanders Affair by Joel Dicker. And that's around another murder mystery and the mysterious, mysterious death of a man called Alaska Sanders. So that should be very interesting.
- [43:22]
Cathy Lett
Divisive. Last question. You're clearly not a Kindle person if you're lugging books.
- [43:27]
Josephine Linden
Actually, I am a Kindle person and I read it on my phone. So here I have all my books. But there's nothing better than sitting with a real book and being able to crack the spine of a new book. And I hate people who dog ear pages. So I have lots of Aussie bookmarks and really enjoy using that for marking where I'm reading. There's nothing better than a book, but it's conveniently you gotta take your Kindle.
- [43:57]
Cathy Lett
Yep, yep. I'm a bit like you. I love a book book, but life doesn't always enable me to have books with me because I'm traveling so much and you know, you want to be able to be in a position that if you finish one you can download another one without trying to find a bookshop when you're traveling and all of that kind of stuff. And it does get to be a storage issue. The book books too but there is something about the feel and smell and the artifact of a book that is hard to replace. It sounds like it's going to be for me, an intriguing summer of reading. Plenty to go on with out of this podcast, plenty of Josephine Linden recommendations and for you, an India Voyage and a New York Winter of Reading. And then we will see what 2025 brings with the Booker with the Women's Prize for Literature in the UK with the Stella Prize here in Australia, with recommendations from the New York Times and others around the world. So it's going to be a great period ahead. Thank you for coming on the podcast and for this discussion. I definitely wish you and your family a very happy festive season. I wish the same to all of our listeners and I'm really looking forward to joining with all of you again in 2025 for the next season of A Podcast of One's Own.
- [45:26]
Josephine Linden
Thanks Joseph, thank you Julia, and happy holidays to you and all your family and all my friends in Australia.
- [45:33]
Cathy Lett
Thank you.
- [45:39]
Julia Gillard
A Podcast of One's Own is created by the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at the Australian National University, Canberra, with support from our sister Institute at King's College, London. Earnings from the podcast go back into funding for for the Institute, which was founded by our host Julia Gillard, and brings together rigorous research, practice and advocacy as a powerful force to advance gender equality and promote fair and equal access to leadership. Research and production for this podcast is by Becca Shepherd, Alice Higgins and Alina Ecot, with editing by Liz Keene from Headline Productions. If you have feedback or ideas, please email us at giwlnu. Edu Au. To stay up to date with the Institute's work, go to giwl.anu.edu au and sign up to our updates or follow us on social media. Uleanu. You can also find A Podcast of One's Own on Instagram. The team at A Podcast of One's Own acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders, past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today. Thanks for listening and we hope you'll join us next time. Work takes up most of your time. That's why you should use stamps.com to save time with your mailing and shipping and have flexibility to focus on more important things. Stamps.com can handle all your mailing and shipping needs with rates up to 88% off. USPS and UPS add flexibility to your day with stamps.com go to stamps.com program to sign up for a special offer. No contract. Cancel Anytime. That's stamps.com program.