A Podcast of One’s Own with Julia Gillard

Julia's Book Club – The Book of Guilt

Date: September 3, 2025
Host: Julia Gillard
Guest Co-host: Professor Michelle Ryan (Director, Global Institute for Women’s Leadership, ANU)

Episode Overview

This episode of Julia’s Book Club centers on a rich discussion of The Book of Guilt by Katherine Chidgey, a dystopian novel set in an alternate 1979 Britain shaped by a different outcome in World War II. Julia is joined by Professor Michelle Ryan for an in-depth exploration of the book’s themes, notably the nature/nurture debate, identity, ethical science, motherhood, and societal othering. The conversation also touches on the power of fiction to probe the ethics of science and the boundaries of humanity, particularly relating to gender and leadership.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of the Book Club & Introduction of Guest

• [01:00] Julia introduces Professor Michelle Ryan, known for initiating her own book club upon returning to Australia, creating a diverse literary circle in Canberra.
• Michelle shares how the group formed from a callout on Twitter, forming a community of public servants, academics, artists, and NGO workers.

  "Instead I put out a second tweet and I said, does anyone want to join a book group in Canberra? And I had about a dozen people say, yep, absolutely." (Michelle, 02:09)

2. Setting & Premise of the Novel

• [04:10] Julia summarizes The Book of Guilt—an alternate-history Britain where clones, not triplets, are raised in isolation as part of the “Sycamore Scheme,” a state experiment with echoes of Nazi science.
• Key characters: Three identical boys (Vincent, William, Lawrence) monitored by three "mothers," and a parallel storyline involving a girl named Nancy, sheltered by her parents.

3. Thematic Depths: Nature vs. Nurture & Dreams

• [10:39] The boys’ genetics are tied to a violent biological father—raising questions of predestination, inherited traits, and the role of upbringing.
• The boys share dreams about the same girl, with each interpreting those dreams differently, highlighting individuality within genetic sameness.

  "Even though the three boys dream about the same girl, they dream about her in quite different ways. William's dreams are quite violent... Lawrence's dreams are a bit more romantic... Vincent's are a little bit more introspective." (Michelle, 13:45)

4. The Ethics of Science & Dehumanization

• [14:47] Julia discusses the devastating revelation that the boys are not being medicated to protect them from disease, but to test drugs—they are “lab animals” for medical trials.

• The outside world perceives the clones as non-human, justifying cruelty and exclusion. This mirrors historical dehumanization and atrocities, echoed through references to World War II.

  "There is, during the book, a major act of violence against one of the boys. And a neighbour says, oh, you know, for a second I thought it was happening to a real boy." (Julia, 16:44)

5. Parallel Leadership: Women in Control

• [18:34] The narrative includes powerful female leaders: a Prime Minister and a Minister for Loneliness—complex, not always sympathetic figures.
• The Minister for Loneliness undergoes a redemptive arc, coming to see the clones’ humanity, adding nuance to the portrayals of women in authority.

  "She was very unlikable, all about what she wanted to achieve... But yes, as she got to know Vincent, as she got to think about the process a little bit more, you could really see her come around..." (Michelle, 20:16)

6. Archetypes of Motherhood & Care

• [21:00] The three “mothers” (Morning, Afternoon, Night) represent different aspects of care, order, education, and conscience. Mother Night, especially, offers Vincent glimpses into the world beyond his curated reality, challenging the boundaries of their existence.

7. Secondary Characters & Missed Depth

• [24:11] Julia and Michelle discuss the "mad scientist" Dr. Roach—arguably too one-dimensionally villainous—and express curiosity about the unexplored perspectives of villagers and caretakers.

  "He was almost like the architect behind it all. But we didn't really hear much about his psychology or what he felt..." (Michelle, 26:11)

8. Literary Comparisons & Broader Context

• [30:40] Strong parallels are drawn with Ishiguro’s Never Let Me Go, another tale of clones in 1970s Britain, though Chidgey’s work delves more into nature/nurture and alternate history.

  "I'm a big fan of Ishiguro... But I think [The Book of Guilt] stands enough on its own... the nature nurture aspect... is a sort of different theme." (Michelle, 30:40)

• Julia reflects on how contemporary questions of AI and human enhancement make these stories newly resonant.

9. Ethics as Central Theme

• [34:17] The book’s ethical questions extend from the boys’ personal relationships to broader societal values. Ethics are integral, with the boys receiving lessons that parallel their own existential quandaries.

10. Tone & Who Should Read the Book

• [35:39] While the content is dark, both hosts emphasize the book’s readability and strands of humor—making it suitable for a wide range of readers, especially those interested in philosophical questions or coming-of-age stories.

  "There's something in that for everyone... you can read it on a more everyday level... or at a more philosophical level and that ethics level as well." (Michelle, 35:39)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the chilling use of Margate:

  "When the boys go to Margate, they get picked up by a van... It's a way of disposing of the boys... it's done through gas... and of course, we all know about World War II history and the parallels there."
  (Michelle, 17:22)

• On societal othering:

  "All of that I found, you know, very jarring in the sense that you are turning the pages thinking, how can people be so mean to boys who would look, you know, beautiful young boys, like every other child you've ever seen?"
  (Julia, 16:53)

• On the Minister for Loneliness’s evolution:

  "That redemptive arc was interesting."
  (Michelle, 20:16)

• On the role of fiction in exploring humanity:

  "It's good that we're exploring them in fiction because it always helps us think, think them through."
  (Julia, 33:29)

• On coming of age:

  "I feel like that's an age where they're questioning everything, they're really working out who they are and it's quite nice to see that sort of play itself out."
  (Michelle, 35:39)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:00]–[04:10]: Introduction of guest & book club formation
• [04:10]–[10:39]: Book summary & initial reactions
• [10:39]–[14:47]: Nature/nurture, the boys’ dreams, and questions of identity
• [14:47]–[17:22]: Scientific ethics & dehumanization
• [18:34]–[21:00]: Minister for Loneliness, female leadership, redemptive arc
• [21:00]–[24:11]: Archetypes of motherhood, supporting women characters
• [24:11]–[28:42]: Dr. Roach, desire for richer secondary character perspectives
• [30:40]–[34:17]: Literary parallels, ethics, and context in contemporary debates
• [34:56]–[36:50]: Readability, recommended audience, coming-of-age elements
• [38:14]–[40:19]: Recommendations from Michelle and Julia’s next reads

Further Reading & Recommendations

• Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro — for exploration of similar themes in a different narrative setting ([30:40])
• On Earth We’re Briefly Gorgeous by Ocean Vuong — recommended by Michelle for poetic look at identity and belonging ([39:29])
• Klara and the Sun by Kazuo Ishiguro — for questions of what it means to be human in an age of AI ([33:29])
• Remains of the Day by Ishiguro (also as film adaptation) ([32:35])

Final Thoughts

Both Julia and Michelle found The Book of Guilt a thought-provoking, page-turning read, suitable for anyone interested in ethical questions, speculative fiction, or stories about coming of age and the search for identity. The book’s speculative premise serves as a way into deeper conversations about science, society, motherhood, and leadership, and it sits well among contemporary works questioning what it means to be human.

"It is a book to challenge you and make you think on all of those questions." (Julia, 24:11)

For feedback, book suggestions, or more information on the Global Institute for Women's Leadership, listeners are encouraged to reach out or visit giwl.anu.edu.au.