Julia’s Book Club – There Are Rivers in the Sky

A Podcast of One’s Own with Julia Gillard
Guest: Sarah Holland-Batt
Date: October 2, 2024

Overview

In this episode, Julia Gillard hosts poet and author Sarah Holland-Batt for a deep and moving discussion of Elif Shafak’s novel, There Are Rivers in the Sky. The conversation explores how Shafak interweaves three distinct stories—spanning ancient Mesopotamia, Victorian London, and contemporary times—connected by two rivers, the Thames and the Tigris, and the epic poem of Gilgamesh. The episode delves into themes of history, memory, trauma, gender, migration, and humanity’s complex relationship with water, all while celebrating women’s contributions to literature and the impact of story on generational understanding.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Book Club Opening: Literary Updates & the Booker Prize (01:15–03:45)

• Julia and Sarah catch up, sharing their latest reading lists and excitement over the Booker Prize shortlist, noting the predominance of women authors for the first time in the prize’s history.
  • Sarah Holland-Batt praises Charlotte Wood’s Stonyard Devotional:
    “Her book is so, so beautiful. It sort of begins as this quiet meditation...but of course that's never so simple...magnificently written, a beautiful book.” (02:55)
  • Julia discusses Orbital by Samantha Harvey and Claire Wright’s upcoming history on the Ūkalla Bark petitions, broadening the scope of the reading list.

2. Introducing Elif Shafak’s There Are Rivers in the Sky (03:45–06:54)

• Julia introduces the featured book, noting its structure—three primary characters, two rivers, and the Epic of Gilgamesh, all bridged symbolically by the journey of a single raindrop.
  • “So 3, 2 and 1: characters, rivers, poem. But it's also the story of one drop of water, because it's the drop of water that connects these characters.” (04:36)

3. Storytelling Structure & the Epic of Gilgamesh (06:54–12:00)

• Sarah highlights the ambitious task of blending multiple timeframes and locations, noting Shafak’s poetic integration of the Gilgamesh epic.
  • “I found myself really delighted to find a contemporary novel obsessed with Gilgamesh—it sent me back to the poem and the kind of mystery of the poem...” (07:36)
• Julia and Sarah discuss the significance of ancient texts being mutable rather than fixed, how their meaning and reception are influenced by who records them.
  • Julia Gillard: “...who gets to write, who is accredited with writing and how we receive their words.” (09:25)

4. Museums, Memory, and Cultural Ownership (12:00–17:47)

• The narrative explores the British Museum as a gatekeeper of history, reflecting on the ethics of artifact acquisition and preservation vs. cultural displacement.
  • Julia Gillard: “In deciding what will be remembered, a museum...is also deciding, in part, what will be forgotten.” (13:28)
  • Sarah: “It’s really poignant...this idea that history is sort of mobile...what remains is often oral history, not necessarily the artifacts, but the memories.” (14:58)
• The episode examines how oral traditions and matrilineal memory are crucial especially for marginalized groups, contrasted with institutionalized, curated history.

5. Character Deep-Dives: Arthur, Narin, and Zuleika

Arthur – Victorian London & the Museum Dilemma (12:00–19:55)

• Arthur is born in poverty but rises to become a museum curator, enamored with Gilgamesh and troubled by the cultural cost of Western artifact collection.
  • “He is absolutely entranced by the Epic of Gilgamesh…he becomes a bit of a hero of this age… but [it] brings a lot of heartache and stress and strain into his life.” (17:47)

Narin – Yazidi Trauma & Oral Histories (14:58–25:17)

• The harrowing story of a young Yazidi girl in 2014 Turkey/Iraq, facing genocide and displacement. The narrative honors real-world suffering while focusing on intergenerational trauma and the strength of oral history.
  • Sarah: “First and foremost, it's a story about intergenerational kind of knowledge and trauma...we see this sense for the lives of the Adizi women...” (20:36)
  • Notable Quote: “The tree remembers what the axe forgets.” — Narin’s Grandmother (22:32)
  • Julia praises Shafak’s ability to sustain emotional engagement: “[She] takes a particular care to present such horrible events, but to keep you reading...” (23:11)
  • Elif Shafak (guest clip):
    “The Yazidi communities are not based on written culture. The memory...is transmitted not through archives, but through oral storytelling. So when you kill the elderly, you are killing the collective memory, and that's what ISIS did...” (25:40)
  • “As we speak, 3,000 girls are still missing. How come that kind of numbness exists? The Yazidi genocide is not over yet.” (26:38)

Zuleika – Water Science, Migration, and Identity (27:53–41:15)

• Zuleika is a contemporary hydrologist living on a Thames houseboat, grappling with identity, gender expectations, and river ecology.
  • The novel introduces the concept of “aquatic memory”—water retaining traces of everything that has passed through it—a metaphor for collective and inherited memory.
    • Sarah: “I also was fascinated by this idea of aquatic memory which comes up. So Zuleika...has a mentor...with this theory [that] water, in other words, remembered.” (32:10)
  • Julia sees this as a powerful literary device connecting nature, history, and agency:
    • “The novel gives water agency, doesn’t it? And if it’s got agency, it’s got memory.” (33:47)
• Zuleika’s family background and struggles with identity (migrant, professional, woman in STEM), and expectations of assimilation are explored.
  • Sarah: “Women are expected to be like rivers, readjusting, shape-shifting.” (38:31)
  • The character arc brings up ethical questions—mirroring issues of cultural ownership and integrity.

6. Literary & Thematic Analysis (41:15–43:57)

• Both discuss how the novel is:
  • Immensely readable and page-turning, yet intellectually and emotionally rich.
  • A story that encourages learning through fiction, merging historical depth, urgent contemporary issues, and “big ideas.”
    • Sarah: “I think it satisfies the sort of page-turning sort of historical fiction genre, but also with depth and complexity and big ideas...” (41:56)
• Julia points listeners to the companion episode interviewing Elif Shafak herself and encourages sharing thoughts via social media.

Notable Quotes

• “Who gets to write, who is accredited with writing and how we receive their words.” — Julia Gillard (09:25)
• “The tree remembers what the axe forgets.” — Narin’s Grandmother (22:32, via Sarah)
• “As we speak, 3,000 girls are still missing...The Yazidi genocide is not over yet.” — Elif Shafak (26:38)
• “Women are expected to be like rivers, readjusting, shape shifting.” — Narration/Julia Gillard (38:31)
• “The novel gives water agency, doesn’t it? And if it’s got agency, it’s got memory.” — Julia Gillard (33:47)
• “I think it’s sort of a novel for people who like to learn something when they read fiction...with depth and complexity and big ideas.” — Sarah Holland-Batt (41:56)

Key Timestamps

• 01:15 – Literary catch-up, Booker Prize shortlist highlights
• 03:45 – Introduction of There Are Rivers in the Sky and its unique structure
• 06:54 – Discussion on weaving timelines, the Epic of Gilgamesh’s role
• 12:00 – Arthur’s narrative, museums, memory, and cultural theft
• 14:58 – Narin’s story, Yazidi trauma, oral tradition, and gendered suffering
• 25:17 – Elif Shafak on the Yazidi genocide and oral history
• 27:53 – Zuleika and the hydrological/metaphorical river themes
• 32:10 – Aquatic memory, agency of water, and environmental reflection
• 38:31 – Zuleika’s migration, family, and assimilation challenges
• 41:15 – Final thematic reflections, readability, and depth

Memorable Moments

• The vivid metaphor of a raindrop journeying through time, uniting all the stories and highlighting the interconnectedness of human experience.
• The discussion of museums as both preservers and erasers of history, and the poignant reality for displaced peoples whose cultural artifacts reside far from home.
• The focus on women’s stories, particularly through the lens of trauma, survival, and matrilineal memory.
• Introduction of “aquatic memory” as both a literary device and a reflection on the endurance of past traumas and histories within landscapes and people.

Tone & Takeaway

The conversation is warm, inquisitive, emotionally intelligent, and deeply respectful of both history and literary craft. Both Julia and Sarah combine personal insights with rigorous literary analysis, inviting the audience not only to appreciate Elif Shafak’s novel but also to consider urgent questions about memory, ownership, trauma, environmental responsibility, and the ongoing necessity of bearing witness—especially to women’s experiences.

Listener Guidance

• Read There Are Rivers in the Sky to experience a beautifully layered novel that is both gripping and enlightening.
• For additional perspectives, listen to Julia’s interview with Elif Shafak, referenced in this episode.
• Share feedback or join the discussion via the podcast’s social media or website.