← A Podcast of One's Own with Julia Gillard
A Podcast of One's Own with Julia Gillard
Kelly T. Clements on the global refugee and foreign aid crisis
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- [00:00]
Kelly T. Clements
We will answer your call as soon as we can.
- [00:03]
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- [01:18]
Kelly T. Clements
This year has been particularly difficult because of the meltdown, frankly of the entire humanitarian and development aid sector, which means that we're really seeing some pretty devastating impacts. It's just from across the board, pretty much a collapse of support in many countries in the world.
- [01:43]
Julia Gillard
Hello and welcome to A Podcast of one's own. My guest today is Kelly T. Clements, Deputy High Commissioner of the UN refugee agency unhcr, an organisation that supports the tens of millions of people around the world who are forced to flee their homes due to violence, conflict and persecution. Over a three decade career, Kelly has shaped refugee and humanitarian policy on the global stage and she has a very strong commitment to ensuring women and girls have the opportunity to rebuild their lives with dignity. Kelly's story starts in Maine in the us. She was shaped by an early experience working in a refugee crisis and she has gone on to dedicate her career to making the world a safer, fairer place. This is an inspiring conversation, full of human stories, but also some very grim statistics. I think it is a fascinating conversation about one of the key of our times. And yes, there will be a hint about what you can do to support if you care about these issues the way that Kelly does. Enjoy the discussion. Kelly. Welcome to A Podcast of one's own.
- [03:15]
Kelly T. Clements
Thank you very much.
- [03:16]
Julia Gillard
It's great to have you here. Now I'd like to start right at the Beginning. Can you tell me a little bit about your family background and what shaped you growing up?
- [03:26]
Kelly T. Clements
Well, I am from a little town in the middle of Maine, not too far from the Canadian border, about three hours or so. Basically, the town where I grew up, Old Town, is where the pine trees start and go north. And my father was a professor at the University of Maine at Orono. He's a Canadian American historian. My mother was a librarian. And it was a town, I think, that was known for three canoes, the Old Town canoe, a Native American reservation, and a paper mill. And I spent a lot of years in that town, as well as in upstate New York.
- [04:12]
Julia Gillard
But it sounds like you were surrounded by books and interesting people.
- [04:17]
Kelly T. Clements
Yeah. I have to say that the background of my parents and the university life meant that we had a whole lot of people come to our dinner table for interesting conversations, not necessarily about Old Town, but also about the world and about Canada. And we traveled quite a bit in that part of the country and then obviously went across the border a fair bit. And it was probably those conversations that piqued my interest in terms of what life was like beyond the state of Maine and New England and the United.
- [04:53]
Julia Gillard
States and growing up. When did you first think to yourself, boys get treated differently to girls? Did that happen in your family home? Did it happen at school? Or was it not until a lot later?
- [05:05]
Kelly T. Clements
So I have one sister 20 months younger than I am, so we didn't have boys in the house necessarily. But thinking about this a little bit, it is back to Old town, and about 50 years ago, playing kickball, which I really enjoyed doing, and I thought I was pretty good at it, and I got into a little tussle with another kid my age, boy. And basically, he told me that I couldn't play kickball and that I should just sit down and do what other girls do. And so I got up to the plate, the base, and I kicked it over his head. And as I was running around the bases, I actually, as I was rounding the second base, I punched him in the stomach. Oh. And I said, yes, girls can play kickball. But it was probably the first time that I realized that there were some expectations of what I could or should or shouldn't be doing. And it was a rude awakening for me.
- [06:14]
Julia Gillard
I think we've just got to be clear that here on a podcast of one's own, we don't endorse violence. We don't endorse kids teaching each other through punching. But I do wonder whether he learned a lesson that he took with him for the rest of his life. You, of course, went on from school and started your professional journey. And I want to take you back to the time that after graduate school you joined the Presidential Management Fellows program, which was designed to bring exceptional graduates into the US civil service. We would say public service in Australia. And you spent your second year in the program in the United Nations High Commission for Refugees work in Cox Bazaar, a southeast Bangladesh community where nearly 200,000 refugees had fled from persecution in what we then called Burma, now Myanmar, in the early 1990s. Can you take me back to first going to Cox Bazaar? I mean, you're a girl from Maine. You would have had all of your educational experiences, but I'm presuming nothing prepared you for that. What did it feel like? What did you see?
- [07:35]
Kelly T. Clements
So I started actually that experience in Dhaka and I worked for a representative, an Iranian representative, who didn't quite know what to do with a 25 year old American woman on his team.
- [07:53]
Julia Gillard
A blond, blue eyed woman?
- [07:55]
Kelly T. Clements
Yes, something like that. And as soon as I got to daca, of course I wanted to go where the action was. I wanted to be with refugees, I wanted to see what the camps looked like. And part of my job in DACA was to be liaising with the embassies, with the government. I was the spokesperson for a time for the office, very, very small office at that time for UNHCR and various circumstances. I think in terms of what had happened, it was quite a dynamic period. We had new arrivals coming into Bangladesh at quite a clip, lots of families and the like. They sent me down to Cox Bazaar to help with the emergency. And I had a role that they called a protection officer, even though I wasn't a lawyer. But it was to talk to women, to talk to families, to see what needs they had, what we could do in terms of being able to support them in the camps. And I have to say I learned an enormous amount in some very sticky situations, including when the food wasn't coming as quickly as families needed it. There were some incidents in the camps where families were in danger and women were in danger in particular. And then as the UN face and as the person that went to the camps every day to talk to these families, it became my responsibility to go and sit in front of the government representative, someone called a camp in charge, and to talk about how it was going and what we were hearing and what our partners were experiencing. And that for a young person was an enormous, enormous responsibility. But it was also something deeply humbling in terms of the type of responsibilities where people who have basically picked up, maybe they had their house burned down, maybe their sons or fathers were forced into labor on the other side of the border. Some of the stories were really quite horrific, including what had happened to women in terms of sexual assault, these sorts of. So the type of care to bring in a location like that, and thinking about it in very, very terms that in terms of delivery, being able to convince the government of the kind of care that is required, that sort of thing, we didn't make progress every day, but it was something that, in terms of organizing a response in a part of Bangladesh, as you mentioned, southeastern Bangladesh at that point, one of the poorest in the country, one of the poorest countries in the world and a very densely populated place, which meant that there were competition over resources, other factors related to the host communities that also became a factor, including in security terms. So it was a. I learned a lot and I may come back to that because I think it's one of the reasons, frankly, that I'm sitting where I am today.
- [11:08]
Julia Gillard
I'm sure it is one of those reasons. But before we move to that, can you, can you give the audience, I mean, for, you know, people who have never been in a situation like that, you know, what does it look like? I mean, you know, how are people living? How are they approaching you? Can you give us a sense of what I assume is the incredible intensity of it?
- [11:31]
Kelly T. Clements
Yes. Well, first, people, lots of human beings that are trying to make a life in a place that isn't their own traveling, whether you're going down one of the dirt roads at the time, it looks quite different today. By the way, I've been back to Bangladesh in the last years, but at that time, it is a circumstance where you're looking left, you're looking right in terms of the road, and all you see are families and individuals and lots and lots of children. Things are organized in a way. These are camps as opposed to settlements per se. That doesn't mean that people necessarily stay in that particular location. There's a lot of movement. Sometimes there are little markets that have sprung up where people are buying things for their families, maybe a little bit of rice or something in terms of food or basic provisions. In these areas, you will find schools. They may sit right next to host communities where there are schools related to that as well, clinics. In an emergency situation, of course, you have a lot of external help, but the first responders are the communities and the community organizations that are there when people first start arriving. And you Know, there's been several waves of Rohingya that have come out of Myanmar in the last years, and the last big wave was in 2017. And what I remember about that period is that you had the host community that were delivering a large amount of assistance, anything, whether it's diapers or clothes or anything, for people to be able to make ends meet. But then things, and many refugee situations are long term and they're protracted. So, you know, it can be look very much like a host community village in some of the areas where we work. That's where you really think about something that doesn't look like an aid and humanitarian setup, something that looks like how do people take care of themselves?
- [13:52]
Julia Gillard
And for you as a young woman, in those circumstances, I mean, I'm imagining that there would be a sense that you can do some good and you do do some good, and you've got a sense that you're making progress and your efforts matter. But there alongside that must have been a sen, that whatever I do, however well I do it, it'll never be enough to meet the needs of all of these people. How did you balance that in your mind? I mean, I can imagine all sorts of sort of psychological repercussions around you thinking about how your own life had been privileged in comparison with the lives these people were leading. You know, when you're sitting down to eat, you're thinking about the people who didn't have enough to eat at that meal that you were about to have. I mean, psychologically, where does it take you?
- [14:48]
Kelly T. Clements
Well, it's an awesome responsibility and easy, easy to become overwhelmed. But I have learned over the course of my career that there is no act or no input or no part that is too small. And I, you know, coming back to this experience I had in Bangladesh and some of my favorite parts of this job are the conversations with people, to hear their stories, to figure out ways, big and small, that we can help or we can humiliate a situation, or we can. Maybe it's a policy change or maybe it's a very simple step that we can take where we can use our power and our influence to be able to change a circumstance that may affect somebody's life. And in that early experience, I remember very, very well that I used to go back to one particular camp and there was a mother, female headed household, as we call it. She was there with her five children. I think, I think I was trying to remember. I think her name was Fatima. This was a long time ago now. And I on one of my camp visits, I sat down and I had incredible team helping with translation for the local language and so on. And we had a conversation and she broke down because she said she'd lost her food ration card so she had no way to feed her five children. And you know, in terms of the what, what I could do in that circumstance, I think, you know, this is maybe a tear or two at the same time what had happened the previous week. I ended up going and talking to the camp in church and basically finding a way to, to fix the situation. Seeing her then a week later and having another conversation and how the week had gone was just, you know, it was a very small thing in that moment. And it's easy, of course, then to think about, well, what about the other 199,999 individuals? But it is, wherever you may be in a moment, there's an ability to make a difference.
- [17:19]
Julia Gillard
That's a fantastic story to paint the picture. And I think, you know, many people feel sort of overwhelmed by the multiple problems in today's world. And there's sort of that old saying of, you know, change starts by doing what you can where you are, and you made a big difference to that woman's life. You did what you could where you were. I mean, for you, this was the birth of a lifetime passion. I mean, a lot of young people would go around the world and perhaps have an experience. They might, you know, go on an official program like you did, or they might go on a volunteering program. You know, I know young people in Australia, for example, who have gone to places like Cambodia or Nepal, and they've helped with local programs, but it's a self contained experience. And then they come back home and they get on with the rest of the, their lives, whatever that is to be. But for you, this was the birth of passion. And it took you into decades of service around refugee and asylum seeker issues, aid and development. Why, you know, why didn't you go back to the US and say, wow, I've learned a lot, but now I'm going to go into a different part of the public service, the civil service, or I'm going to go into the private sector, make some money, you know. What took you on this pathway?
- [18:52]
Kelly T. Clements
Well, going back to the way that I was introduced to the world, you know, through my family and through my parents, public service has always been deeply part of my core, my DNA, in terms of how can we make our community, our world, a better place? And when it comes to refugees, and by the way, Finding the part of the State Department that dealt with humanitarian refugee issues, that was serendipity. That was almost an accident. I did not know what a refugee was when I first embarked on that set of interviews for that particular position. So it really was something that I became deeply passionate about it because each time I had an experience, whether it was an international one related to an emergency or a conflict sparking, which meant people were in the middle, civilians were inaccessible, we were trying to use diplomatic means and ways to be able to deliver aid and protection in very tough locations. That almost fed my interest then in how do we do things even better, how do we prevent an end conflict? How do we find solutions to displacement? Why is it that women and girls and children for that matter, tend to be the biggest victims? And caught in the middle of these conflicts that are power plays between strong men, mostly strong men. And that for me became, yes, it did become a passion. And each time I thought, maybe I'll do something a little different, maybe I'll go back and get another, another degree, maybe I'll specialize in international health. Because that was something I had a particular interest in. Another very interesting opportunity kind of came, was dropped in my lap almost, or unfortunately, the world fell apart in a place where they needed a humanitarian expert. I had an opportunity to be triple hatted during the Kosovo emergency back in 1999, when there was a million people that went to Albania and I served in the embassy as a refugee refugee officer next to the ambassador and on the US Disaster Assistance response team and advised the government of Albania on humanitarian coordination because they were leading the emergency we were supporting. So it was just fascinating, from humanitarian to development to security to political issues. And I love it to this day. I was just recently in Lebanon and Syria just a couple of weeks ago, and it has been a while since I've had an operational mission because this year has been so intense and it felt like oxygen to me just to be out, to be talking with people, to see what we could do to support what has become one of the largest return movements of Syrians now back to their homeland. Not without problems, by the way, not without challenges, but there are a large number of people that are trying to go home. So this all.
- [22:14]
Julia Gillard
It'S infectious and I can see the fact that you love it just shining in your eyes. So you went on to have this huge career in the US State Department, and I'm going to come to your role now with UNHCR in a moment. But whilst you were having this huge career with the State Department and for those not familiar with it, the State Department is effectively the foreign policy arm of the US government. In Australia, we would say the Department of Foreign affairs and Trade. While you were having this huge career being deployed operationally, you've talked about some of those operational deployments. I know you went to places like Beirut. So, you know, overseas, in the midst of it, you did get married and have kids. How did that all work? I'm not really asking you how, I'm really asking you how did your life come together in a way which enabled you to balance work and family life, if that's how you saw it? I mean, it's one thing to say, you know, Mum's going out the door to work. It's another thing to say Mum's going out the door and she's off to Beirut or Albania or somewhere. That's a different family experience.
- [23:29]
Kelly T. Clements
So I was extraordinarily lucky because I met the person of my dreams the second day. I was at university as an 18 year old and he was a couple years older than I was and we were both in between classes and anyway, we became very good friends, in fact inseparable for my first year of university and decided that this was a lifelong relationship and we're now 36 years. We did not have children immediately and in fact, in the early years of our marriage, I think we lived apart more than we lived together between the deployments. And I was based in Geneva for three years. He was finishing his postdoctorate in anaerobic microbiology and he wasn't sure actually that he was going to pursue an international career, but somehow fell into that and for over 20, 25 years was at USAID actually until January of this year. But we had children probably 14 years into our marriage, so at that time very much ready. And you know, he's a, he is a present partner and we are, we are truly co parents and so when he goes off on travel, I'm there. When I go off on travel, he's there. And the kids always, they're grown now, but the kids always were secure that one of us would be there and the other one would be coming back. And that has worked and I know that it is a factor in what has made certainly the ability to have a career like this and also to be able to have the kinds of relationships I have with, with my children and obviously with my husband and family.
- [25:29]
Julia Gillard
That's a remarkable story, partly because I think most women who go to university spend a lot of time trying to forget the Men that they met in the first few weeks and not spending a lifetime with them. Maybe that's just me. You were appointed Deputy High Commissioner of UNHCR in 2015 after having had this decades of service at the US government and in the State Department. Now, for listeners who are not familiar with the UN system and have heard the acronym UNHCR and have thought to themselves, I really should know more about that. Can you give us the 101?
- [26:08]
Kelly T. Clements
Yeah, sure. So UNHCR is 75 years old this year. It was born in the ashes of World War II. And it's an agency that has a very particular mandate, refugee law, convention and protocol that is around protection, protection of people for particular reasons and persecution is at the root of it. But it also has a very strong role in solutions and trying to find those solutions to displacement. And there is another role of the office that looks at stateless individuals. And we've been talking about the Rohingya, largest stateless population in the world. So in those areas, UNHCR's mandate and the mandate of the office is very specific. And we are in about 130 countries around the world. We have a team that was until this year 20,000 strong. And we have a budget that's needs based, that's over $10 billion. But in any one year until this year, the operating budget is closer to 5 to 6 billion. So it's an organization that works a whole lot with other partners with the rest of the UN system and has a lot of, in fact, the majority of the partners that we work with are national and local partners, those that are very close, of course, or right amongst the communities in which we're working. So it's a fantastic organization that I became attached to as you know, and.
- [27:53]
Julia Gillard
It'S dealing with the fact that we as a global community are seeing displacement at record highs. More than 120 million people on the move. And people can be on the move for all sorts of reasons. They might be escaping violence and conflict in their home region. They might be escaping natural disaster, famine. We know that climate change and the way in which it threatens water supplies, nutrition systems, that is also causing displacement. So with 120 million people caught up in these circumstances and UNHCR trying to assist prioritise work with partners, you know, how do you come at that task to work out where should we be? I mean, it just must seem sometimes, you know, as we discussed before, overwhelming. How do you find the place to start?
- [28:50]
Kelly T. Clements
Well, and in fact the 120, 22 million people now that are what we call forcibly displaced. Those are from conflict, war, persecution, those that may be moving for environmental reasons, climate change, other factors, disasters. That's an additional large number of millions and millions of people. But there are many refugees and internally displaced that get caught in some of the drought, the earthquakes and other natural disasters. Choosing priorities are issued extremely difficult. We always do this very much bottom up, where we do a lot of planning at country and local levels in terms of what are the most immediate needs and where are the areas that we can work on this mandate that I mentioned in terms of finding solutions. And we have tried over the years to shift now to a response that is much more sustainable, not the parallel systems of support that are basically unsustainable, creating dependencies. How do you change the framework in which refugees or displaced are received? Where can they, for example, freedom of movement or the ability to work or to be able to support themselves? The self reliance piece becomes super important. And there was a compact that was adopted some years ago back and talks really about including refugees and host communities. So there's a whole, you know, I think until we've never had enough resources to take care of those needs. And of course it's not just UNHCR that's responding in these circumstances. There are a large number of partners. But this year has been particularly difficult because of the meltdown frankly of the entire humanitarian and development aid sector, which means that we're really seeing some pretty devastating impacts. We're basically looking now at millions of people that were not able to provide the kind of support, whether that is women that may have suffered from gender based violence, the ability to continue education for kids that may not have either had their education interrupted because of conflict or in the countries of asylum were not able to provide the kind of support to keep the schools going. It's just from across the board, pretty much a collapse of support in many countries of the world and the tensions and the ability to be able to support what refugees or displaced or those that have needs like this, they find other means. And sometimes that can be as damaging, if not more damaging than what it was that they actually fled from in the first place to find themselves in these new communities. And you know, the situation that comes top of mind now. And last year I went both to South Sudan and to Chad. But the stories, the harrowing stories that families and women in particular tell about what they suffered in Darfur and what they suffered en route and you want to be able to be then in Chad or in South Sudan and being able to provide the kind of support immediately so that families can get back up on their feet and we just don't have the resources required to be able to do that right now.
- [32:42]
Julia Gillard
And what have the cutbacks meant for you and hcr?
- [32:46]
Kelly T. Clements
Oh boy. So it's been, it's, it's, it's been devastating. Quite, quite honestly, thinking about when I came into this job 10 years ago, we had about 62 million people forced to flee conflict, war, persecution. We had about three and a half billion dollars of an operating budget. Now as you mentioned, and we're over 120 million, we will have just over the same level of resources to manage. We have had to drastically contract our operations around the globe. We have had to discontinue partnerships that have been long standing and tremendously valuable. We have trimmed, we've changed about 185 offices either closed, downsized, nationalized and unfortunately we've seen already about 4400 posts post for staff positions that have had to be discontinued. So it's had importantly huge implications for the protection and aid and solutions that we need to be able to provide in order to find a way that we can seize opportunities and also respond to real humanitarian and human suffering. But it is across the board and this isn't just unhcr, it's the whole humanitarian development sector. We estimate right now that this is impacting about 12 million people in terms of what we're not able to provide in all life saving, protection, real terms. And the, the area that becomes particularly sensitive is we have host countries that have been long standing, kept their borders open, welcomed refugees for some of them, many, many years. I come back to Chad, this was a country that they had 750,000 refugees before the war broke out again in Sudan. And now they're, you know, they have a million and a half refugees from Sudan. They want to keep their border, continue to be open. But this is difficult without international support. So we worry a lot about what this is going to mean in terms of our ability to be able to support them as well as the refugees that depend on this aid.
- [35:23]
Julia Gillard
And can you give us a sort of example about what this would mean to answer individual, woman or girl? I mean, I think it's hard for people to think in the millions. Is there a story that comes to your mind?
- [35:38]
Kelly T. Clements
Yes, I'm thinking now about, because we have a very robust operation in Ukraine to respond of course to the war there. We do a large number of interventions supporting the government and others, but family, family interventions. And I had an opportunity in one of my recent trips to go and meet two pensioners, apple farmer, woman who was taking care of her husband, who was not able to work any longer and had health needs. And what we did and what we do in these circumstances is that during a, she had a bomb dropped on her greenhouse and it basically blew out the windows of her home. And this was just before winter. And so of course it gets very cold in Ukraine. And so for interventions like that, you know, even some of the emergency interventions, very small scale, that sort of support that we would provide either directly or to families where they could fix their own homes, that's all in jeopardy. We're doing much less than we could before or in a circumstance, let's say Uganda, one of the world's most progressive countries when it comes to refugee policy. But that is dependent on whether, for example, in Uganda are we able to support one of those organizations, those women led organizations that work at the grassroots level on some of the psychosocial issues and some of the livelihoods issues. When I was in South Sudan, there was a head, she had returned herself to South Sudan, she was in Congo before that. And she was leading an organization to welcome other returnees. And they were doing things like just small scale provisions of chicken feed and tools and so on in terms of for women to be able to start farming again once they returned. That sort of program now is in real jeopardy in terms of our ability to be able to continue to support it. So it's very local, it gets back to the individual story again. And thank you for asking the question because the numbers are enormous, but these are all, you know, it's a well worn phrase, but, you know, they're not statistics. They're human beings and each have very individual needs and they want to take care of themselves. And that's what we're trying to provide is the ability for them to rebuild their lives.
- [38:29]
Julia Gillard
And if anyone listening wants to support your work, how best can they do that.
- [38:36]
Kelly T. Clements
Directly? You can go to unhcr.org we also have national associations in some locations, including here in the uk. UK for unhcr. We have Australia for unhcr. It's not hard to find us. And really any support, big or small, makes an enormous difference.
- [38:59]
Julia Gillard
It does make an enormous difference and I'm sure people will want to support. I could keep talking about this all day, but we don't have all day. So let me conclude by doing what I normally do, which, which is putting a Virginia Woolf quote to my guest. We've used this quote before, but I think it so perfectly meets this moment. Virginia said, as a woman, I have no country. As a woman, my country is the whole world. Kelly, what would you say?
- [39:38]
Kelly T. Clements
I would say that speaks to me in enormous terms because it does not matter where you are. It's the human touch, it's the ear that is listening, it's the hug at the end of a conversation. It doesn't matter if that is your next door neighbor or if that is someone in Bangladesh or in Congo. The connection between people is the way to build those bridges.
- [40:15]
Julia Gillard
Beautifully said. Thank you so much for joining me on A Podcast of One's Own.
- [40:20]
Kelly T. Clements
Thank you very much. Julia.
- [40:28]
Podcast Hosts Rachel Tippograph and Sarah Hofstetter
A Podcast of One's Own is created by the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at the Australian National University, Cambridge, with support from our sister institute at King's College London. Earnings from the podcast go back into funding for the Institute, which was founded by our host, Julia Gillard, and brings together rigorous research, practice and advocacy as a powerful force to advance gender equality and promote fair and equal access to leadership. Research and production for this podcast is by Becca Shepherd, Alice Higgins and Alina Ecot, with editing by Liz Keen from Headline Productions. If you have feedback or ideas, please email us@giwlnu.eduau. to stay up to date with the Institute's work, go to giwl Anu Edu Au and sign up to our updates or follow us on social media Oolanu. You can also find A Podcast of One's Own on Instagram. The team at A Podcast of One's Own acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders, past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today. Thanks for listening and we hope you'll join us next time.
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Kelly T. Clements
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