Suzie Miller on theatre as a force for social change

Summary

A Podcast of One’s Own with Julia Gillard

Episode: Suzie Miller on Theatre as a Force for Social Change

Release Date: March 11, 2026
Guest: Suzie Miller – Playwright, former lawyer, advocate for gender equality
Host: Julia Gillard, former Prime Minister of Australia

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Overview & Main Theme

This in-depth episode features Julia Gillard in conversation with Suzie Miller, the internationally acclaimed playwright behind Prima Facie, whose body of work stands at the intersection of theatre, law, and social change. Together, they unpack Suzie’s journey from a working-class upbringing and legal advocacy to the international stage, focusing especially on how art—particularly theatre—can serve as an agent for advancing gender equality, challenging entrenched societal myths about consent, and prompting systemic legal reform.

The episode explores the real-life stories and legal structures that have inspired Miller’s work, how personal adversity shaped her outlook, and the push for social change through storytelling. The pair also converse on the retrenchment of gender equality among young men and how to create healthier cultural narratives for the next generation.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Suzie Miller’s Early Life and Awareness of Gender

• Upbringing in St Kilda, Melbourne:
  • Miller grew up in a working-class family, surrounded by cousins and siblings, beginning work at age 10 as a “paper girl.”
  • Confronted early gender stereotypes: “They asked for a paper boy, and I went in and made the argument that, as a girl, I could also do it.” (04:42, Susie Miller)
• Schooling and Early Awareness:
  • Attended a local Catholic convent school that fostered her sense of social justice.
  • Early recognition of her relative privilege and an innate sense of fairness around gender.

Cultural Shocks and Racial Dynamics

• Family relocated to a remote mining town near an Indigenous community; Miller describes experiences of culture shock, bullying, and early encounters with Australia’s pervasive racism (07:24)
• “It was a really racist town... I didn’t really have a strong kind of conversational relationship with my parents about politics or gender or anything, really, or race, for that matter.” (09:38, Susie Miller)

The Influence of Teachers and the Early Love of Stories

• Inspired by primary school teachers who encouraged creativity and critical thinking.
• Miller frequently wrote stories and produced “bedroom” plays for her neighbours, with tickets sold for 2 cents.
• Early exposure to hostile or threatening public spaces for young girls (e.g., being flashed at while cycling to work as a pre-teen).

Academic and Professional Crossroads

• Studied science, drawn to conceptual thinking and the “elegance of a theorem”, but was also inspired by teachers who encouraged creative writing.
• Pivoted to law, moved by a desire for social impact: “I just wanted to keep talking about that... I am a human communicator. I’m not good at looking down a microscope all day.” (23:46, Susie Miller)
• Worked at the Aboriginal Legal Service and Public Interest Advocacy Centre, focusing on indigenous rights, women, and children.

The Limits of Law as a Vehicle for Change (26:13–29:10)

• Gillard and Miller discuss the “one case at a time” constraint of legal practice.
• Miller’s plays were born from frustration with incremental legal change—she wanted to share individual, often silenced stories on a collective stage.

Notable Quote:

“I thought, if you could actually just show these stories to everyday people, they would say, that’s not fair... Suddenly all those dinner parties...I could put it all in a play with a bit of humour...and show the community that they had.”
(29:10, Susie Miller)

Systemic Discrimination in Australian Theatre

• Miller’s early theatre success overseas contrasted with her inability to gain traction as a female playwright in Australia in the mid-2000s, despite advocacy.
• “One artistic director actually said to my face...‘Oh, women can’t write plays.’” (32:42, Susie Miller)
• Her move to London was motivated by this systemic discrimination.

Personal Adversity: Serious Illness as a Teacher

• Contracted viral encephalitis in her early 30s—a life-threatening brain illness—that forced her to slow down and dramatically altered her perspective on life, community, and compassion.
• “My brain was my thing, that was where my gift was... There’s something about that unknowability and recognising that everything in my life depends on the outcome of this.” (35:51, Susie Miller)
• Learned patience, the value of community, and a deeper empathy for suffering.

Critical Life Decision: Choosing Art Over Security

• Story of being offered a lifetime appointment as a magistrate in Sydney (job security, pension) versus a playwriting residency at London’s National Theatre.
• After family therapy and negotiation, she moved the family to London—prioritising her own ambitions and upholding the principle of equality in relationships.
• “Just because your career pays the most doesn't mean it's the most important career in our family.” (44:19, Susie Miller)

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Prima Facie: A Play as Catalyst for Change

The Making and Power of Prima Facie (54:54–60:07)

• Prima Facie follows Tessa, an ambitious criminal barrister who experiences sexual assault and confronts the failings of the legal system she once championed.
• Miller’s motivation was rooted in years of working with victims of sexual assault—being the first to believe them, only for legal processes to fail them:
  • “Not a single one of those women whose statements I took ever got over the line where they had a conviction. And I thought, there’s something profoundly wrong.” (54:44, Susie Miller)
• Crafting the Play: The play's form—a one-woman show—was a bold gamble, written in a fit of “absolute fury” and skepticism that any theatre would take the risk.
• The production became a critical and commercial sensation in Australia, London, and on Broadway, starring Jodie Comer:
  • “Can you imagine going to a theatre company saying, I've got a one-woman show, it's about a rape, but there's some parts in it that are a bit funny... what a ridiculous play that I’ve written.” (57:44, Susie Miller)

Notable Moment:

Gillard describes a “magic moment” witnessing Prima Facie in London:
“It was a moment when an audience united, jumped to its feet, and you could feel the emotion crackling in the room.” (03:24, Julia Gillard)

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Inter Alia and Exploring Masculinity, Consent, and the Path Forward (61:31–69:30)

• Miller’s latest play, inter alia, takes another angle: centering on Jessica, a mother and lawyer who fears for her son in a climate of changing sexual norms and the ever-present risk of accusation.
• Draws from conversations with men—especially fathers—who feel unprepared, even silent, about teaching their sons about consent, intimacy, and vulnerability.
• Highlights the danger in expecting the internet or peers to shape boys’ understanding of masculinity and sex, and calls for honest, courageous conversations between men and boys:
  • “Let’s give young boys something to work with rather than expecting them to raise themselves on the Internet.” (66:55, Susie Miller)
  • “Where are the big brothers and the godfathers and the dads and the walks around the block where we talk about real stuff...” (62:47, Susie Miller)

Notable Quote:

“It’s not just about if I want sex, I get sex. And if they cry rape, that’s just them being horrible... We’re letting girls down because we’re letting loose these new sexual kind of entities that have really mixed up ideas about sexuality and how you actually have sex with a woman and what consent is. But we’re also letting down the boys.” (63:51, Susie Miller)

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The Future: A Trilogy and Reforming the Conversation (66:55–70:26)

• Miller confirms plans for a third play, forming a trilogy to examine not just the legal system or the family, but the role of the jury—community attitudes and prevalent rape myths:

  • “We should be starting with a community education campaign... Let’s examine those concepts that we bring our daughters up with that make them somehow feel shameful... Let’s see whether we can dissect [rape myths] and challenge them within a jury setting.” (67:06–68:52, Susie Miller)

• Miller and Gillard note the step backward in attitudes to gender equality among young men, and the urgent need for new language and stories to address “retrenchment” and collective failure to support boys and girls alike.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the Role of Storytelling:
  “Nothing has really happened until it has been described.” — Virginia Woolf, chosen by Julia Gillard for Suzie Miller (70:26, Julia Gillard)

• On Social Responsibility:
  “Once you see, you can’t unsee. And I think that...invokes all of us to go, right, let’s go forward and make the change that we want to see in the world.” (70:54, Susie Miller)

• On Gender Roles in Relationships:
  “Just because your career pays the most doesn't mean it's the most important career in our family.” (44:19, Susie Miller)

• On Boys’ Education & Masculinity:
  “We’re letting the whole community down by not having that in place. We’re letting girls down because we’re letting loose these new sexual kind of entities that have really mixed up ideas about sexuality... But we’re also letting down the boys because they’re going to have no real intimacy or life if that’s what they think is normal.” (63:34–63:54, Susie Miller)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Early Awareness of Gender: 04:42–06:26
• Culture Shock and Racism: 07:19–09:38
• Teachers and Creativity: 10:26–14:12
• Science & Law Crossroads: 19:03–23:46
• Limits of Law for Social Change: 26:13–29:10
• Discrimination Against Women in Theatre: 32:42–34:34
• Personal Illness and Transformation: 35:11–41:46
• Life-Changing Career Decision: 42:49–47:13
• Prima Facie Discussion: 49:54–60:07
• Inter Alia & Masculinity: 61:31–69:30
• Forthcoming Jury-Focused Play: 67:06–69:34
• Closing Quotes and Reflections: 70:26–70:59

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Conclusion

Through raw honesty, personal anecdotes, and incisive feminist analysis, Suzie Miller and Julia Gillard’s conversation reveals the intertwined roles of law, theatre, and education in advancing gender equality. Miller’s plays serve as a force for social change by making the unseen seen and shifting public consciousness, challenging stereotypes, and giving voice to stories too often ignored in politics, justice, and the arts. The episode closes with a mutual call to action: to describe the world as it is, so we can envision—and build—the world it should be.

Transcript

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[Susie Miller]

Let's give young boys something to work with Rather than expecting them to raise themselves on the Internet, really, why are we putting the responsibility always on the girls and on the young women? Why are we expecting them to sort of tailor the response that men have to who they are?

[Julia Gillard]

I'm absolutely delighted bring you on the podcast Suzy Miller. If you've heard her name, and you're very likely to have, it's because of her groundbreaking play Prima Facie, a one woman play that premiered in Sydney and became a West End and Broadway sensation, winning major awards and sparking global conversations about sexual assault, consent and the legal system. With more than 40 plays and 100 productions worldwide, Susie's impact on the arts world is undeniable. What you will learn in this conversation is that that impact has been possible because of the multi layered life that she has led. This is a deep conversation. It's a long conversation because of the way that Susie does her playwriting work. It is a conversation that necessarily canvasses issues about rape, sexual assault and consent. So be aware of that as you turn and listen to this conversation, you will see that right at the end. Susie, I think gives us one of the best descriptions I've ever heard about what is happening with with young men and boys and our attitudes to masculinity. As many of you know at the Global Institute for Women's Leadership, we, through data, particularly public opinion polling, have been showing for years now that there is a retrenchment in attitudes towards gender equality and it is most particularly happening amongst young men. Susie, in talking about, inter alia, I think in helps us understand what's the pathway forward. That part of the conversation, I think is not only incredibly powerful and eye opening, but it almost gives us some new language for talking about this issue which is one definitely at the forefront of feminist discourse today. Please enjoy this conversation. Suzy, welcome to A podcast of one's own.

[Susie Miller]

So privileged to be very excited.

[Julia Gillard]

Well, I'm delighted to have you. And we are recording this podcast in London, face to face. And London was where I had the absolute privilege of seeing Jodie Comer in your play Prima Facie. And I am lucky enough to have been to a lot of theatre in my life. But of all the productions I've ever seen, oh, my goodness, that one, that one certainly stays with me. And you see a lot of standing ovations in theatre edit these days, but that was a moment when an audience united jumped to its feet and you could feel the emotion crackling in the room. So I'm definitely gonna be talking to you about Prima Facie and your contemporary works, but I like in this podcast to go back to where it all began. You and I are around about the same age. I'm a couple of years older, but I'm gonna claim we're round about the same age.

[Susie Miller]

Yeah, absol. The best years, right? The best years.

[Julia Gillard]

All the best people were born in the early 1960s. We know that for sure. When I was growing up in Adelaide, you were growing up in St Kilda in a working class family. Can you just tell me a little bit about your early life?

[Susie Miller]

Sure. So my early life, we basically lived in a house in Ripon Lea, where my cousins lived up the street, who I'm still really close to. So my mum's sister had four daughters all around my age, and so they were kind of like my sisters, really. And then I had a younger brother and a younger sister. And then we moved somewhere else in St Kild, where I think I was about probably 8 when we moved, but soon, like about 10 or 11, I had a paper round, which was my first job, and I remember applying for that paper round, and they asked for a paper boy. And I went in and made the argument that as a girl I could also do it. And I was on trial, but I was the best paper person they ever had. Everyone sent beautiful Christmas cards because I lay the paper really carefully at everyone's doorstep, which I don't think any of the boys did. I didn't realize there was another way. But I did that paper round for a couple of years and then I ended up. I mean, I worked all my life, basically because of my background, but also I went to a Catholic convent school in St Kilda, which, you know, I really do credit with my social justice kind of thread. And also I was at school with lots of young girls who were from local public housing, and it was very Much a vocational school, not a big academic school, but there were a few academic people there amongst, myself included. And that really, I think that what that school did for me was make me feel like quite a big fish, but also it allowed me to really understand that, you know, even though I wasn't an overly privileged kid, that I was so privileged compared to the other kids I was at school with. And that's actually a real luxury to see your privilege that early, even when it's not compared to the people I then subsequently went to university with.

[Julia Gillard]

And it sounds, even as a young girl, that you were very alive to gender stereotypes. I mean, paper boy, but you knew you could do it. Paper girl, where does that come from?

[Susie Miller]

It was almost innate. Cause it wasn't like my mother was necessarily like a feminist in that regard. It was just almost like this strict feeling of fairness. It just didn't feel fair that I wouldn't be able to do something that I was purely as capable, if not more capable of doing than the boys that I was at primary school with. So I don't know that thread, you know, it really did run through me. And I think it really was perhaps the nuns that taught me, who were very strong individuals, actually. So in spite of the fact that some of them had some fairly conservative ideas, they were certainly strong women. And I was brought up by them in many regards.

[Julia Gillard]

And your life changed significantly, didn't it, when your family moved from St Kilda? You know, very urban, in fact, very swanky now, but not in the time we're talking about St Kilda. And your family moved up north to Nullumboy to an indigenous community because your father was a mining engineer.

[Susie Miller]

Yeah.

[Julia Gillard]

I mean, that must have been the biggest sort of cultural shock.

[Susie Miller]

It was so shocking, I can't tell you. Because, you know, I was from Melbourne, I was used to cold weather. I was nine, my brother was seven and my sister was two. And I remember when we moved up there, the first day we got there, we were in a mobile home in a very poor part of Nullumboy that all the workers had cottages in. And I remember my brother and I walked around the block, which was mostly. When I say block, it was mostly bushlands. And I remember I passed out, I was so hot. And then within a week, I was so sunburned that I was just covered in blisters. So. And then I went to school. And of course, it was a very rough state school that went from Year K all the way through to year 12. And so it was this massive group of, you know, People. I'd never been to a school like that. I came from a very sort of quite prissy little Catholic local school. And my mother insisted in all her sort of budgetary concern, that because my school uniform was the same colour as the one that I wore in Melbourne, that I should wear my Melbourne school uniform, which was sort of little gingham and collars and belts, to this really rough state school, which actually had a stripy uniform with a mini skirt and no sleeves. So I got bullied within an inch of my life, Julia. Honestly, I had apple cores thrown at me, protractors stuck in my butt. I mean, you wouldn't believe how much stuff that happened to me. I was, like, in shock. Total culture shock. But actually, at the time, which shows you how racially delineated Australia was, that was the local high school in Nullumboy City. And as a consequence, the Aboriginal kids would go to the mission school, as it was called at the time, which is now where Yirkala is, which is a very, very strong indigenous community centre and area. And some very smart girls from Yakala were allowed to bus in and go to school with the. At the area school, which was basically a white school. And those girls didn't really mix with the other students, probably because they didn't want to, because everyone was so horrible. But when I was bullied so badly, they allowed me to play with them, quite reluctantly, I might add, because I was really at the bottom of the pecking order. Having said that, I did their maths homework for them every night. So that was the thing that was what I had to do to be allowed to hang out. And I go back to the mission every night with them and hang out and swim and swing on ropes and get further sunburned, basically.

[Julia Gillard]

And what did your family think of all of that? I mean, family home, you know, what was the thinking about. About race, about gender, you know, it

[Susie Miller]

wasn't something that was particularly enlightened, to be fair. And also, my dad was just trying to survive his job and my mum was sort of in a kind of a bit of a funk that she was in Nullumboy, I think. I don't think they realized what I did after school. And certainly I would wander through the bushlands with my little brother on my own for hours on end collecting tadpoles and lizards. And so it was one of those sort of very laissez faire childhoods, shall I say that these days people would be aghast at. But at the time, it didn't seem that to Most of the people that I grew up with. So I didn't really have a strong kind of conversational relationship with my parents about politics or gender or anything really, or race, for that matter. And of course, it was a really racist town. And I'm sure my parents basically did not go out of their way to kind of counteract that so that they could fit in in the way that they needed to fit in as well.

[Julia Gillard]

I remember when I was in primary school, and I've talked quite a bit in interviews in the past about an inspirational teacher, Mr. Crowe, who was both dep. Principal and English teacher and really cemented in me a love of literature, of language. And I do remember when I was in upper primary school, he got all of the kids to write plays and he liked mine the best. And so the other kids were forced to act in my play. My clear recollection is that their acting was not at the quality calibre that it needed to be for my exemplary playwriting work.

[Susie Miller]

You should be sitting in my seat. You were a playwright before I was.

[Julia Gillard]

Well, that's the. That's the only time I've ever busted out anything that could be called a play. And maybe even putting that word on a grade six project is really a bit of a big label for it. But you, from a very young age, were writing stories, filling notebooks, putting on plays for your local community. Can you tell us about that?

[Susie Miller]

When I say local community? My street.

[Julia Gillard]

Your street.

[Susie Miller]

The plays were put on in my bedroom and people had to pay 2 cents to come and see them, so it wasn't a big money earner. Having said that, I did put small plays on and dance routines, and I wrote loads of stories, loads and loads of stories. But I also did a nativity play every Christmas that I would insist that, you know, the local kids from the street were playing various roles in. But my poor siblings ended up having to play so many roles and they just did what I asked them to do because I was the big sister. So every year there was a nativity scene and, you know, my parents were kind of like it. I mean, it's astonishing. Now there'd be just strangers coming into our house to sit there and watch for 2 cents a ticket. I made tickets and everything.

[Julia Gillard]

Where did the two cents go? Did you care?

[Susie Miller]

I think I did.

[Julia Gillard]

Right, okay.

[Susie Miller]

You'd think I would have given it to charity, but no, I probably did hang onto it. And, you know, I look back now and I think no one asked me to do this. I just decided to do it. It seemed like a bit of a money earner at the time. And also I used to collect bottles, so I was a recycler before it was trendy. And in fact, it was a real money earner for my brother and I, to be honest. Like going around the streets and picking up Schweppes bottles and trading them in, that was a big source of pocket money. So it was, you know, and that's St Kilda when it was back in the day, when it was quite a rough area, to be honest then. And, you know, when I did my paper round and later when I rode my bicycle to a place called Ackland street where they, you know, they had bakeries and cake shops that I worked in. Most of those, you know, I used to get flashed at all the time and things like that. And I had all sorts of tactics, like I'd laugh outrageously, but I'd be shaking on my bike thinking, I don't want to see that at 12, you know. So, you know, it was a rough area and I certainly, you know, I had to have my wits about me living in that area, because it wasn't like my parents were that vigilant. And I did ride my bicycle everywhere. No helmets, nothing like that at the time, of course, but, you know, therefore the grace of God go I, that I kind of survived it, really. Yeah, yeah.

[Julia Gillard]

It amazes me, looking back too. I mean, my sister and I would leave the house on a school holiday day or a weekend and we'd go to the local Park Creek, Brownhill Creek. We'd go with two other girls and we'd be gone from just after breakfast, we'd take sandwiches and we just knew we needed to be back, you know, sort of before dark. But, yeah, four little girls, no mobile

[Susie Miller]

phones, nowhere to contact in a park all day.

[Julia Gillard]

What could possibly go wrong? And fortunately for us, nothing ever did. But, yeah, a different time. But you obviously had this interest and yet after your schooling, you went on to study science and is that because you were figuring to yourself at a young age, playwright, author, no one really makes a living doing any of that. I've got to go to university and get a ticket.

[Susie Miller]

I mean, we didn't have books in our house, so I didn't even know people. I mean, I knew books existed, but I thought they were library books. I didn't realise that people bought books and had them in shelves in their homes. I think what was also interesting for me is, and you were talking about teachers before, is that I had two really amazing teachers. I Had one teacher. Both of them were people that dropped in for a term at the school that I went to. One was a maths teacher who just taught differently. And he taught in this way where he taught the beauty of mathematics. And that's really stayed with me. And I was, you know, it's just a lucky kind of strike of nature that I was this really gifted math student. And, you know, so maths came very easy to me. So science kind of followed because, you know, if you can do maths, everyone sort of heads you towards science. And I found that work, you know, very just natural to me to be able to do. Having said that, what I loved about it was the kind of beauty of how things worked out and how things had a kind of magical unity. So in a way, what I loved about it was the conceptual version of it, which actually is what I love about plays. And what I, when I did law, I did lots of conceptual law. And the same when I did biological science, I did immunology, which is very conceptual. So I think it actually just really tapped into what I loved, which is thinking abstractly and conceptually. It wasn't. I mean, I'm terrible at accounting, for example, so I can be great at maths, but terrible at accounting. So what I loved about it was the beauty and elegance of a theorem or the sort of lovely way a maths problem or a calculus problem works out so completely, precisely and perfectly and has its own rules. And it really makes sense. Made sense to me, but, you know, trying to say that to most of my people, people that I work with now in theater, and they absolutely hated maths and sciences and because they just never learned about the beauty concepts in a way. So I had that one teacher, Mr. Quinn, in, you know, year seven, who taught just a few of us, the sort of brightest math students. And we had this incredible six week period with him that really did change my life because I thought about it in a different way. And then much later on, in about year nine, we had a Jewish teacher come and teach at our school, which was a Catholic school. So that was already unusual. And not only did she take us to synagogue to show us different ways of thinking, she had us write creative writing. And she did one, ironically, we're on a podcast now where we had to make a recording of a sort of monologue in a way. And I wrote a monologue and recorded it and she loved it. And she talked about it like, you know, and really praised me for it. I mean, I don't think I played it for Anyone else. And she's the only person who ever heard it, really. But I remember thinking, oh, I really want to impress her. Like, she's a really thoughtful, wonderful teacher and she likes what I did. And, you know, I don't think there's anyone else I would trust to sort of play it for that they could like it. And, you know, that was a real. That was a real light bulb moment for me that, you know, those monologues can actually make sense. And also storytelling can be from the first person. And, you know, I think that's probably what set me off. But having said that, of course I got to the end of my hsc, having mainly done sciences and went to and studied science at university. I did consider doing medicine, but I was a bit terrified of dead bodies. And, you know, I came from a Catholic background. It was sort of all a bit over the. Over the top and I was a bit squeamish. But, you know, I actually enjoyed science. Although I have to say, once I got to university, to Monash University in Melbourne, I realized that my education hadn't prepared me for the level of rigor of academia that, you know, I had to be prepared for. So I had to work hard in university, whereas I didn't have to work hard at high school. And that was a new concept because I didn't know how to learn. I hadn't learned how to learn properly. I'd just naturally done it. So that was a bit more kind of figuring out why people are taking notes in lectures and things like that. So that took me a little bit of adjustment, but certainly adjusted and then finished that science degree and did an honours year in science. And I did it in immunology and microbiology. But immunology is very much a conceptual thing because you can't see it. You have to understand the concepts and what things show you about other things. And I found that just absolutely fascinating. And of course, that's never presented me with any conversation to have with any other human in the world until Covid.

[Julia Gillard]

But yes, in which case you would have been everybody's favorite.

[Susie Miller]

Oh, it was amazing. Suddenly people understood what, you know, like a T cell was. This is unbelievable. I can actually have a conversation.

[Julia Gillard]

Yeah, we're all baby immunologists.

[Susie Miller]

Everyone knows about.

[Adam Grant]

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[Julia Gillard]

And so you went on this track. I mean you clearly had capacities and interests, broadly science, maths, but also creative writing, but went on this track, science. But it had captured your mind by the sound of it, but not captured your heart. I agree, because you didn't go into a laboratory. You're not sitting here now as a globally recognised immunologist. That would have been one pathway. And we should note that we're sitting in the studio of the Wellcome Trust that funds health and medical research.

[Susie Miller]

Maybe we will end up here in the end.

[Julia Gillard]

Anyway, I'm sure this studio has been home to many globally recognised immunologists. But you were looking for something else and that brought you to London, I guess in an Aussie gap year kind of way. But it brought you to London in a time that meant you could explore who you were, but you could also rub shoulders with people who were pretty famous. I'm thinking here of Boy George. Can you tell us that story?

[Susie Miller]

Well, yeah, I mean, just to predated a fraction. I then I basically left science and started studying law and then did it and then took a year off to work over here. And also I did some of my study at the University of Toronto at Law School, which I set up a kind of exchange. But when I lived over here, it was just after I'd finished law school and basically, yeah, I lived with Boy George's dancers and he lived with us periodically. He had two homes that he'd go between. It was during his Hare Krishna phase. And the house, actually the house we lived in, which was in Camden Town, which was at the time was pretty wild, I can tell you now. I mean, I think Derek Jarman would drop around. Who. I had no idea who he was. I think I. I remember showing him my Little Mermaid crab, thinking he'd be interested. I look back now and I think there was this great giant of film and he's like looking at my little statue of the crab from Bloody Littlest Mermaid. I mean, I'm just mortified now. But I was very young and, you know, quite innocent and didn't realize. I mean, I just was never starstruck like that. I just thought, oh yeah, there's that boy, Boy, Man, Boy George, who used to sing, you know, in Culture Club. And now he's sitting meditating on our kitchen table. That's just how life is, right? And it was a pretty rundown old house, but it was a big mansion of a place. Place just with, you know, lots of shag pile carpet with cigarette burns everywhere and no heating. And it used to belong to the Bay City Rollers. They'd lived there for years. So there were five sinks in the bathroom. And it had a kind of sort of ex rock and roll kind of vibe to it with lots of tart and in various places. So, you know, when I look back now, I realize it was quite a moment, you know, to sort of jump on board and sort of see that I was in this middle of this very sort of intense cultural period of London life generally. But, you know, I was working around the corner at a cafe, Cafe de Lancy, that lots of Londoners will remember from period. And also sort of acting and writing and thinking, do I really want to be a lawyer after all that? But then went back because of course I had massive debts and went back and started work as a lawyer in Australia. But I guess all of that creative vibe was very much who I was. And you know, at the time, I mean, there's no way I could imagine actually like surviving as an artist at the time, other than working as a waitress. So when I had this law degree and I felt like, you know, I also had this desire to do something good with my law degree. So I came back and even though I didn't precisely go straight into human rights, I went to one of those big law firms that can help you pay off your debts. I was there for 18 months and I was utterly miserable. It just wasn't for me, corporate law. And I remember resigning from that and going to the Aboriginal Legal Service, which was much more aligned with what I wanted to do with my law degree. But you're right, the seeds for my creative life were already planted then.

[Julia Gillard]

I guess we've jumped over the transition from science to law. Yeah, I mean, at the end of your science degree, why law? And at the end of your law degree, sure, a diversion to London. But the natural thing would have been to go into the law that relates to science. So there's a big field of law about who owns intellectual property. And people make a lot of money in that field of law. And if you've got scientific knowledge, you're very much valued in that field of law.

[Susie Miller]

Absolutely.

[Julia Gillard]

Why not that?

[Susie Miller]

Well, I Did. That's what I did at, at Freehills, at Herbert Smith Freehills. I was in the intellectual property section. But really it's corporate work. And I thought, if I'm going to be doing something scientific, I'd rather be a scientist. If I'm gonna be doing something artistic, I'd rather be an artist. If I'm gonna be a lawyer, I'd rather fight for human rights. Like the sort of compromise didn't give me anything. So I needed to decide what it was I felt passionate about. And it wasn't about using law for science and art. That wasn't my gig.

[Julia Gillard]

And when you picked law post, the science was the human rights passion, the reason you picked it?

[Susie Miller]

Very much so, yeah. And so what happened is I my honors year and I was already been offered a PhD to do immunology, which I was really considering actually. And I remember the Chernobyl happened. And I remember looking up from my microscope along with all the other young scientists and older scientists in the room and thinking, oh my God, this is like a political, you know, terrible thing that's happened in these people. Their lives are at risk. And everyone else started discussing which plutonium, you know, we should be, you know, that had triggered the reaction and how the reactor had decomposed. But I was like so interested in the politics and the human consequences and the political consequences, consequences and what would happen next. And I just wanted to keep talking about that. The radio was on with this news and everyone else went back to their microscopes and I thought, I need to be able to talk. I am a human communicator. I'm not good at looking down a microscope all day. Even though I enjoyed it, I felt that as I was growing into a woman, I was. I had a lot more to say and I really wanted to be able to communicate and talk and ask ask questions of the world. So I think that's probably. And then I'd always been interested in law, but, you know, it was one of those sort of like highfalutin professions. And I thought rather than do another three years in a PhD, maybe I could go to law school instead and actually be in and do some debating and questioning and asking and see what I could do to change the world. I always had that weird thing that maybe it comes from coming from a disadvantaged high school or even a social justice, a school that really talks about that. But I really did have this sense that I have to do something that really affects and changes the world. So with immunology, I thought maybe I could. Maybe I could cure cancer. I didn't do that. Then I thought maybe I could, you know, go and fight for people's rights with law. And then, you know, so that was my next trajectory. And, you know, I like that, you know, as a woman that didn't have a kind of background of family sort of guidance, I guess it just came from within. I had to decide what I felt was important to me rather than just what my parents thought would be a good thing to do.

[Julia Gillard]

So in your legal career, you did make a huge difference, whether it was at the Aboriginal Legal Service, whether it was public interest advocacy, looking after the most disadvantaged, whether it was focused on women and women's rights. But it sounds to me like you had the same kind of moment that I had during my legal career that the law is a fabulous lever for change. But at the end of the day, you're changing things one case at a time.

[Susie Miller]

Oh, you had that experience as well.

[Julia Gillard]

Or maybe, you know, in a club class action, you can be changing it for a lot of people at once. But what the law says and how it applies and whether it is a just instrument is decided elsewhere. It's decided in politics, the court of public opinion. I came to my legal career already politically active. I'd been politically active in university. But it sounds to me like you hit a moment where you thought. Thought as meritorious as what I'm doing is, you know, helping people who need help with their legal problems, there's gotta be a bigger way. Am I right in that?

[Susie Miller]

Yeah, you absolutely are. I mean, I think that, you know, I. I sort of drank the Kool Aid at law school and thought, this is the biggest way of making a difference in the world. And then when I went out there, I mean, aside from my brief parlay into commercial law with intellectual property, the Aboriginal Legal Service was a. Was an absolutely huge time in my life. Like, I learnt so much. I felt that I had been denied so much information in my. In my education and just in my community about what Indigenous communities were going through. It was a time when really there was so much silence around it. And, you know, it was the beginning of the stolen children generation. And I had so many clients looking for their, you know, birth parents and lots of criminal matters and lots of civil matters, and everything was steeped in racism. And it was. It was just an extraordinary coming of age in terms of understanding what happens in racial, you know, in a country that really had not acknowledged that. Cause Mabo had only just come out.

[Julia Gillard]

So we should just explain for International listeners, that in Australia, in this era, you know, in the 1980s and moving into the 1990s, there was a reckoning with some aspects of what the, the racism in Australia and what the colonial birth of Australia had done to Indigenous Australians. And there was a central case, Mabo, which recognised that Australia wasn't a vacant landmass when white people arrived, Captain Cook and all of that, but rather that there were indigenous people there with deep connection to the land, prior custodianship of the land. And there was also a recognition that there had been been an inhuman policy in many parts of Australia of separating Indigenous children from their parents as a

[Susie Miller]

way of absolutely destroying kind of familial links, basically.

[Julia Gillard]

Yes, yes. And in the at best naive and often malevolent belief that, you know, these children needed to be with white families and that it was about, about, you know, a deep seated racism towards Aboriginal families. So you were in all of that world of change and at the Aboriginal

[Susie Miller]

legal service while that was coming to pass. And so it was an incredibly formative period. And then after a while, I mean, it was also extremely stressful. And then I moved to the Public Interest Advocacy Centre where I tried what you mentioned, the idea of doing test cases and group cases, which I thought and did have an impact. I mean, we did some really amazing cases that changed the law. And then basically I just, I realized that I was really interested in talking to humans and humans, individual stories. So I started working at the Shop Front Legal center and Children's Rights Advocacy Centers with women and children and also young boys who were in massive trouble. And I would go to court every day. And I absolutely loved court. There's no doubt about the fact that I enjoyed the court arena, but I realized that, you know, I was making these impassioned pleas and when I was successful, it was because I was giving the details of a client's life, like not just saying, oh, my client was found abused and they had difficult childhood. I would actually give the utter details to the court and to the judge and so, and actually show that there was a way that we could divert them from the criminal justice system for a period to see if they could actually have a chance of the state intervening in a positive way, given that the state had never actually assisted them prior to that, or they'd just been neglected for so long. And, you know, but each one of those was for one person which really mattered to that one person. There's no doubt about it, but there was no sort of precedent laid or it wasn't like it was publicised. It wasn't on the local news. It wasn't. Wasn't even, you know, acknowledged by anyone other than myself and the client. But I also thought, you know, like, if you could actually just show these stories to everyday people, they would say, that's not fair. And so what I did was possibly because I had that kind of bug, and I just finished my master's in theater and film out of pure joy of doing it. I then went back to NIDA and became a playwright. And I wrote a play based on those stories that, you know, I wrote it because I needed to write it. And it was basically everyone's individual story. So that you saw and you were shown their lives rather than just their crime or just their disadvantage. You saw the kind of the love and the disappointment and the sadness and despair and all of the things that make up a human being. So that when people drove through the King's Cross, which is the red light district in Sydney and Australia, they didn't just gawk and have some sort of voyeur experience of pointing out a prostitute or a drug user. They suddenly went, oh, that could be someone that I know. And that's the most important thing I think you can do in any storytelling, is to make the reader or the audience or people that are experiencing it go, oh, this is not other anymore. This is part of my humanity as well, and what I should be caring about and what has actually moved me as a human being. So that first play actually must have done that because I had so many people come out of the play saying, I will never drive through the cross in the same way. I will now see those people and understand their humanity and what's brought them there. And that meant so much to me. I can't tell you, Julia. Cause I thought suddenly all those dinner parties I went to where everyone would say what they'd done each week and, you know, my husband would say, you know, you're the convers. Because you'll start talking about your clients like the most normal thing in the world. And everyone will go, I'm really depressed now. But I actually felt like I could put it all in a play with a bit of humour, because that always helps. And also just real humanity and show the community that they had. And that play transferred to the Sydney Opera House, which at the time I thought, oh, well, this is a good career. This is a fun thing to do on the side, you know, the Sydney Opera House that's funded, whatever. And of course, now I realize that was a really lucky Event, you know, that doesn't happen very easily and, you know, so. But what happened is I then kept writing theatre because I thought, actually this is a really big way to affect 500 people a night rather than one judge a day. But in Australia at the time, the impossibility of being a female playwright became so clear to me. And having come through the legal system where I understood discrimination, I worked in discrimination law, I could see that no one seemed to understand that all of the programs had all male playwrights and all male directors with, with the odd female sprinkled around. And I kept asking people in theatre, which is supposed to be the enlightened left wing kind of, you know, social justice area, like, why are there no women playwrights? What's going on? And like, one artistic director actually said to my face, without a hint of kind of irony or shame, oh, women can't write plays. And I remember thinking, stop. Yeah, that's it. I went, what? What do you mean? Like, this is crazy. And, you know, I thought, well, I'll do a little scientific experiment, which I did. So I wrote a two hander. I set it in a hotel room and I sent it to a whole bunch of theatres in Australia. And I sent it to one producer in Edinburgh who had a slate that he would put on at the Assembly Rooms each year. And one theater in New York that I just knew of because I'd read something that had gone on there and it went to both of those theatres, both of those places went on in the Edinburgh Festival, did really well. Well, got great reviews, went on as a completely different production at the Cherry Lane Theatre in New York and won this massive award for excellence in playwriting. And no one in Australia ever got back to me. And I thought, oh, there's my answer. It's not me, it's Australia. So I can write because obviously the show does okay, but I'm in the wrong country. And that's when I started moving over here, to be honest, because I thought, I don't have time on my side to wait until Australia catches up. But I was very much part of the strong advocacy for women playwrights in Australia that been has now become a normal thing to have a female playwright, which is great, but, you know, it's not that long ago, I'm talking 2008, you know, when it really wasn't possible to have a, to be a female playwright in Australia and have any success.

[Julia Gillard]

Wow, that is a depressing but also unbelievably enlightening story. Your life. I knew when I Was preparing for this podcast, that there was some. So many things, so many threads that it was at risk of getting confusing because you've got such a textured, layered life. So I do want to come.

[Susie Miller]

A long one. I've been around a while.

[Julia Gillard]

Yeah, both of us and me longer than you. But I do want to come to the playwriting and your incredible work. We've already discussed some of your incredible work, but I feel like we've skipped over a couple of things.

[Susie Miller]

Let's go back.

[Julia Gillard]

You know, one thing that we skipped over is you've done all of this academic work, all of this legal work, but you're a human being in a human body and in your early 30s, you contracted viral encephalitis, which is actually a life threatening brain illness. You know, this is an illness in a person, as you've told us, who's basically been working since you were like 8 years old, neatly putting papers on people's doorsteps instead of just randomly chucking them vaguely at the fence. What did that mean for you?

[Susie Miller]

Do you know? So few people really ask me about this, but this had a profound effect on me. In fact, I feel quite moved even having you talk about it in that way, because basically my brain was my thing. That was where my gift was, where I had access to all the things that I wanted to. To do. And you know, encephalitis is a virus in your brain. And I had absolutely cataclysmic kind of like symptoms where I couldn't feel half my body, where I couldn't judge where things were in relation to me, where I had kind of. I felt like I was sunburned over all my skin all the time. Really weird fact, really weird symptoms. And went to see so many neurologists, had spinal taps, had needles put in my eyes to figure out what my evoked potentials were. And basically they came. You know, I didn't have some of the more degenerative neurological problems. They said it's basically a viral encephalitis and we don't know what its trajectory will be. So there's something about that unknowability and recognizing that, you know, everything in my life depends on the outcome of this. And it was a very. I mean, I was with my husband, who was then my boyfriend, who was just the most incredible man when I think back now, because I think I said to him at one stage, you know, if I could leave me, I would be leaving me. I don't want to be around this person anymore. Why the hell are you still here? You're crazy. I probably won't even be able to have children after this, you know, I mean, I was so. I was really deathly ill, and I was told I might not survive. And if I did, you know what sort of damage I would sustain. As it turns out, the only damage I have sustained is that I find it really hard to recognize people, so. Which is actually quite a hindrance in the career I currently have, you know, but, you know, like, that's all that I have. That's a problem. But, you know, at the time, you know, when you think that you're not going to survive something, or if you think that your brain's not going to work the same way again, or even all the weird symptoms I had, I didn't know that they would go away. I mean, nerve cells heal so slowly that one doctor said something amazing to me, and he said, go and plant a bulb or a seed and don't watch it grow, because you can't watch a flower grow. And that's what you're trying to do by checking every day where your symptoms are. Don't check in every day. Go. And when you see that little pinch of green come up out of the soil, you know your nerve cells have grown a tiny little, like, part of a millimeter. And you just keep waiting for that to happen. And I actually went away and bought a seed and planted it and did exactly that. And there was something about what I learned through that because I. I am quite a fast person. I really am hungry for life. I'm quite passionate and eager to do things quickly. It did teach me to listen to my body and to listen to my mind in terms of where I felt and where I felt placed in the world, and also to be patient in a way that I had never been patient. I was a very impatient person to just get things done and move forward and not miss out. And there was. You know, I had a year where I couldn't work at all and everyone else around me was working. And it occurred to me that without work, I didn't have a career community, you know. So I took it upon myself in my slow period of recovery to sort of bake a cake and cross the road and sit with the old lady across the road and share a cup of tea, which, you know, I hadn't done in my life, and, you know, to go to yoga with other sick people and realize they were my new community. And so it gave me a sort of sweeping compassion for all of the things that I hadn't properly seen in the world before. In the same way that the Aboriginal legal service showed me an insight into indigenous culture that. That I hadn't personally experienced myself. And you know that. So in a way, I mean, I remember the time someone said to me when I was really ill, oh, you know, one of those sort of New Age periods in my life where someone said something along the lines of, well, maybe you needed to get sick to figure out what you wanted to do. And I went, I might have needed to get sick for two weeks, but not for a year. And I was furious. Cause I thought, no one needs to get this sick. And I certainly don't believe that at all now. It wasn't like, oh, that was meant to happen. It was an awful thing that happened. But what came out of it, it was that I have a deep compassion for people that really suffer from illness. I also understand that one day everyone will suffer from some sort of illness or some sort of period in their life where their mental health's not strong, where their physical health's not strong, where they've lost their way or they're feeling grief or whatever. And, you know, I just think that it's very much part of the human condition. And we pretend it won't happen to us until it does, and when it does. I often say to people that, you know, you play in your backyard all your life not knowing you're playing on the edge of a cliff until you fall. Fall over it. And then once you've fallen over and climb back up, you never play quite that close to that. That mortality again. Because you know how easy life is to slip away. So I didn't take quite. I mean, I was always riding my bike without a helmet. Like, I was a bit wild out at night and. And I suddenly thought, my life is really precious and I really want to take care of, you know, like, my body and my mind and who I am and not sort of burn the candle at both ends or whatever. And, you know, people will still accuse me of doing that, but they don't realize I have a safety net now that I've put in place. And I think that it was, you know, I was only 30. I hadn't had a safety net before that I didn't really have anyone to kind of pick me up and sort of help me along my way. But I had really good girlfriends, and I had a partner who absolutely was strong and stayed put and really wanted to be with me, even if this was my new permanent condition. And that was great. That was a Great love thing for me, actually. And it's still. I still am reminded by the strength of character of that person every day. I look at him whenever I'm cross with him and think, yes, but right, remember, he was the person that actually. And he tried in so many ways to keep me. He even once did this wonderful thing that he. He wasn't big on horse, he was a bit scared of horses. But I used to love horse riding and I remember we went on a horse ride and he had this old, old horse called Fred that he allowed to eat all along the way so that he was like walking at like an absolute snail's pace. But he'd come with me because even though he was terrified, he said, I knew that you wanted to do it so badly. And those little offers from people are things that make you realize that you're loved in life, the world. And, you know, I think about that often and think about how, you know, on a daily basis, how I can show that to people that I care about that are having a hard time as well.

[Julia Gillard]

We're going to get your husband an accolade through this podcast. I'm not sure what it's going to be called, Good Husband of the Year, because there's another pivotal moment, and that is out of all of this period, you ultimately face a crossroads moment. This is in 2000 where you're offered a magistrate's position in Sydney. So, you know, being in magistrates court, it's a judicial position, safe as houses would have had a salary for the rest of your life, a nice pension.

[Susie Miller]

It's a different thing in London, actually. Magistrates are not like judges here.

[Julia Gillard]

No, magistrates are not like judges here. So, yes, in Australia, a magistrate's job is a judicial position. It's an office until retirement age and plus a pension and it's well paid, a well paid job. So absolute security. Magistrate's position in Sydney or a residency playwright at London's National Theatre.

[Susie Miller]

Now, it's a real fork in the road, isn't it?

[Julia Gillard]

It's a fork in the road and I think all of us instinctively can understand the dilemmas in picking which fork in the road. You've got your husband, your wonderful husband, you've got children. Small children, small children. It would disrupt his career too. What do you do?

[Susie Miller]

We had family therapy. We did have to. I mean, you know, my husband's no pushover, so, you know, my law degree is quite handy in that regard. So we negotiated basically and we went and I said, you know, this is really important to me. And before we got married. I said that there was a certain period of time in our life where I wouldn't want to live in Sydney if my career took me elsewhere. And your career is here, but at the moment my career is taking me elsewhere if I choose to live in London. And I need you to come with me and the children. And, you know, he was horrified at first. He was like, what? Maybe for six weeks? I'm like, no, no, no. It's a year to 18 months. That's what I would like to go for.

[Julia Gillard]

And we should probably background saying your husband is also a lawyer and he

[Susie Miller]

was a QC at the time and

[Julia Gillard]

he's now one of Australia's most senior judges.

[Susie Miller]

He is now. So it didn't do him any harm in the end. He was worried it might.

[Julia Gillard]

He's on our high court, which is the ultimate superior court in Australia. And so a brilliant legal career, but that kind of legal career requires being in place and working your way up to be an ever more senior lawyer and ultimately an ever more senior judge.

[Susie Miller]

Not that he told me that that was his aim, but it's probably when I said, well, if ever you wanted to do something for your career, I wouldn't be so supportive if you can't be support. Now I'm saying this because I'm. I wanted to say to young women who are talking about marriage with men or relationships with men or even any partner really, is that it's important to know that that's not a big ask to say, let's like share that, like if we're both ambitious or we both want a career, it doesn't matter that one person earns more than the other person. Of course, he earned a lot more than me at the time. I said, it's about us as a couple and as a family. Everyone having their moment with they can self. You know, they can be. They could have some autonomous decision making about where they would like to work and play and raise their children. And it can't always be defined by finances or no woman I know would ever be able to do it. And so I really wanted to stick to that because, you know, all around me people would constantly say, oh, it'd be too hard for Robert. And I went, well, you know, I've been here with raising small children in Sydney without my family, that was too hard for me. But I did it so that he could be here. Let's not forget that, you know, we're looking at apples and oranges, sure, but really everyone's prioritizing the financially beneficial version of our life rather than the one that means really a lot to me right now. And, you know, he would look back now and he said it the other day. So I know for a fact that he does and my children do and say that 18 months was the best time for our family and we really established a life in London. My children have strong connections here. Robert has a Welsh family, so he had a lot of time in his family of origin in Wales. And you know, like, really we had this incredible period. We've got friends that we've known since that period right up until today who are like our family here. And, you know, I'm here so much of the time and Robert comes and goes. It's the other way around now. And you know, but it was always. It was, that was the moment where, okay, this is where I really have to actually be assertive about the fact that just because your career pays the most doesn't mean it's the most important career in our family. And we both are responsible for these children. Children. And you know, like, sure, it's a move, but I'm not saying it's forever. I wasn't actually asking to immigrate. And you know, he. We did and we had a therapist come and talk to us, you know, one of those sort of like to say, what, what is the decision going to be? And I could express why it was important and all of the things I'm saying now. And because he was a lawyer and I could present it in a very well argued form, I guess eventually he went, wow, I have to do this. This was the agreement. I don't think he did it like cheering the whole way, but he certainly is the sort of person that even if it takes a while to argue your point, sees the point of it. He will follow through. And he definitely followed through and he was here for that period. In spite of the fact that, you know, his, his sort of colleagues at the law were obviously taking great strides ahead while he was in London walking the children to school and I was earning hardly anything and we lived on a pound a day. I swear we literally couldn't afford a coffee every day. So it was a really interesting time.

[Julia Gillard]

That's a fantastic story. I love it too, that your husband was born in Wales. I was born in Wales. I'm going to try.

[Susie Miller]

Well, he wasn't born there. He's the only one in his family that was born in Australia. But all his family are Welsh.

[Julia Gillard]

All his family are Welsh. I'm going to research now to see if we're related, maybe we are.

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[Julia Gillard]

We're going to turn back to where we started, Prima Facie and that magic moment for me in the theatre. And whilst you are the playwright of many, many plays, Prima Facie was the, you know, international, very big breakthrough. Breakthrough. And for those listening who haven't had the privilege of seeing seeing it. The play follows Tessa, a brilliant criminal defence barrister who believes deeply in the law. And she is ambitious, strong. This is a one woman play and it starts with her showing what a agile thinker she is, what a great barrister she is. She is prepared to do defence with work for people who have been accused of sexual assault. And she delights. She delights in winning. She does. Getting, you know, if she's doing the defence, getting someone off a rape charge, that brings her joy. She delights in winning.

[Susie Miller]

She believes in the rules and the game of law. Yeah, she does.

[Julia Gillard]

She does. And she excels at it. And then the whole thing swings when she is sexually assaulted and comes face to face with how this system, which she has found her place in and succeeded in, when this system fails her. And I saw the brilliant Jodie Comer do this play in London's West End. Jodie Comer would be familiar to people from a very big body of work, but probably her first really big global breakout Was Killing Eve where she.

[Susie Miller]

That's where I saw her for the first time.

[Julia Gillard]

Yes. She's got northern accent herself.

[Susie Miller]

Liverpool.

[Julia Gillard]

A Liverpool accent.

[Susie Miller]

Scouse accent.

[Julia Gillard]

Yeah, Scouse accent. But in Killing Eve, she plays this gun for hire assassin who is capable of imitating any accent, playing any character to basically kill the person she's been paid to kill. And despite all of that, you love her.

[Susie Miller]

So she has quite a fan base, too.

[Julia Gillard]

Quite a remarkable series, Killing Eve. And she was unbelievable in this, your play, Prima Facie, One woman show.

[Susie Miller]

This is amazing.

[Julia Gillard]

Now, your whole life, I think, had prepared you to weave together a story about women and women's rights and women's perspective, a story about the law, a story about consent and about the interrelationship of men and women and women. And Prima Facie's got all of that.

[Susie Miller]

It does.

[Julia Gillard]

But can you just take us back to the origin moment? Sure. I mean, how did it come to you?

[Susie Miller]

Do you know? I was recently talking to Professor Katherine MacKinnon, who is a scholar in the US who works at Harvard University. And when I was at University of Toronto, I said to her, in 1988, you came down to Toronto University and spoke to the law students there, of which I was one. And your feminist critique of Jerusalem jurisprudence was like a lightning bulb for me. It just like, made me look at everything differently. And that was probably the moment, because suddenly the law that, you know, when you're a kid that doesn't come from a legal family and you get in and you're. You're doing well. I mean, the thing is, it's like the golden ticket. You've actually, like, made it, you know, you actually feel like I'm actually with all these private school students and all these wealthy families, and I'm as good as them, you know, and it's so. It's sort of proof that you've made. So you. You love the law because it gave you that possibility. It gave you language, it gave you, as a woman, a chance to speak up and to speak up in a way that can demolish someone's argument. I mean, all of those things, when you don't come from power, are an incredible gift. And so when you suddenly see the fault in the law or the fault lines, it's quite devastating. You don't want to see. You don't want them to exist. And so you think, how can I make this not exist? But of course, it's endemic in the law. I mean, the law is defined by generations and generations of. Of men, of white, privileged, heterosexual, Able bodied men with a lot of money. And so the way that they think about the world is completely contained within the legal system and where it started and how it's developed. In fact, if we think about it, right up until the 90s, women who were married were not able to be raped within their marriage because basically by consenting to marriage, you were consenting to sex with that person when he wanted it at any time. And so all of that stuff is crazy when you think of it now with the scope of how we live and our sort of feminism and just even being a woman in the world. So, you know, that, that was her, her, her critique was so fascinating and she was such an intellectual and I bought her book and sort of devoured so much of her feminist jurisprudence and then came back to Australia, Gender and the Law with Regar, who's this incredible intellectual as well, who's a very good friend of mine now, I might add. She's wonderful. But aside from that, I then went into working with women and young children and, and every day after I came back from court where I would run those cases that I was telling you about, I would take 2 to 3 really serious, sometimes more, sometimes 4 to 6 really serious sexual assault statements from someone that would be applying for victims compensation. But in this instance, they would be giving me their statement in full with tears and like tissues and maybe a social worker cringing on the edge of the seat because they hadn't heard it before. And they would tell me their story and I would write down the statement so that I could apply for them to have access to a fund that pays for sexual assault counseling. So the only reason that you do this is to get access to sexual assault counseling. And who else wants that other than people that have been sexually assaulted? So there's no reason to lie to me because all you're getting is sexual assault counseling. And they were so believable. And it was, you know, not that I can be the arbiter of truth because I was just taking a statement, but by the time they, if they took it forward and only 1 in 10 women will actually take it to the police, but if they take it to the police, and if the 1 in 10 of them actually end up in court, not a single one of those women whose statements I took ever got over the line where they had a conviction. And I thought there's something profoundly wrong because I was the first person they told and I know what they went through and I wrote it out for them and it was really deathly clear. Exactly. The trauma that they experienced and how some of them were horrific. Like, some of them were gang rapes. I mean, we're talking. And childhood rapes. I mean, things that were so. And they had details. And sure, there were lots of bits that were mixed up, but also they all told me the same story, that they froze their psyche, couldn't catch up with what was happening to them. They couldn't believe this person they trusted was doing something, et cetera, et cetera. Most of them were people they knew. The odd one was someone that they'd met at a pub or someone outside while you're having a cigarette or whatever. Anyway, the stories were so similar that they started to merge into the same type of story. And I would talk often to other defence lawyers about how I think sexual assault and rape is. There's something wrong with the system. It makes you prove not only did the woman not consent, but that the man knew she was not consenting. You have to prove, and as the prosecution, you have to prove those two double negatives, basically, that double negative. And I said, you know, how. I mean, why is consent something that you have to prove? Is that you have to say, oh, they proved they weren't consenting. Surely you assume someone's not consenting until they. They consent. Like, we've got it backwards. But all of the defence barristers I knew, they were all men and they were like, oh, no, you're just being, you know, you. That's how it is. And otherwise, how would anyone ever know what someone was thinking? And blah, blah, blah. And I thought, it's not that difficult to ask someone, you know, is this okay? It's four syllables. I mean, it's not a big deal anyway. And I thought about this long and hard, and I would have loved to have written this play before I wrote it, but I think it had my craft, had to get to a certain point and I had to find the form, which was the one woman show that I really to, wanted, wanted to make. And then it just came out of me in one of those passionate kind of, you know, like moments where I wrote all day and all night in the sort of dark office of mine after I'd had a fight with my whole family because no one would help me with the garage sale. So there I am, you know, writing it all out, thinking this is coming from a place of absolute, you know, fury, with a system that I believed in and I wanted to be a good system. And when I wrote it, I remember putting it down and I remember thinking to myself, well, this is going to be an impossible pitch. Can you imagine going to a theater company saying, I've got a one way woman show, it's about a rape, but there's some parts in it that are a bit funny. And I thought, no one's ever going to put that on. Like, what a ridiculous play that I've written. Oh, well, maybe my friend Sam Austin, who's now the Governor General of Australia, maybe her daughter who is in one of my goddaughters, maybe Loshi will do it. She's a lovely, you know, at the time she was a young acting student and I thought maybe she'll do it in a local theater somewhere sometime. You know, that'll, that'll be exciting because it'll be on. And then before I knew it, it won this award and in Australia. And it went on in Australia to great acclaim with the incredible Sheridan Heartbridge and the wonderful Lee Lewis directing. And then I sent it to the contact that I'd made in London when I was coming and going because I had another play in London and another play in Edinburgh. And he just got back to me and said, I want to do it on the West End straight away. And it was just, you know, it's, it's, you know, like it's the relationships you establish for years and years that you, that you go back to and you keep talking and you keep thinking about who you work with and what you'll bring to them. And I just sent it to him because I said it's done really well in Australia. I didn't even think he'd want to put it on. I just thought he wants to keep in touch with my work, I'll send him my latest play. And I said, what, you want to take a one woman show to the West End? Like, just like that. And you know, it was astonishing really. And Justin Martin, who's the director I was very committed to working with because I'd met him when he did a show called the Jungle, which was a human rights show basically about refugees in Calais. And I thought, this guy's great. He's got a really great way of thinking about it. I didn't know anything about it. Him, someone, he, someone gave me his number. I said, you should call him and have a meeting because he's lovely, you'll like him. I had two massive bags on my way back to Australia and he called me because we'd been trying to, we'd been paying phone tag and he said, this is before we were definitely taking it to the West End. And he said, oh, you know, do you want to meet up? I heard that, you know, you, like, I've got your message. And I said, oh, I'm about to fly to Australia. I've got two massive bags. I'm overweight. I'm really like, I'm scared I'm gonna have to pay extra money. And he said, well, I'm actually wearing. Which airport? I said, heathrow. And he's like, well, I'm in Hammersmith. Why don't you drop by on the way and let's just have a coffee at the local coffee shop. And I remember holding the two enormous bags and thinking, oh, I can't go into a coffee shop with these. I'll just maybe next time. But I thought, you know what? You got it. Fortune favors the bold. You gotta jump while the iron, you know, you gotta jump while the possibility exists. And I went, yeah, okay. And so I dragged these enormous suitcases into this coffee shop, had the best conversation with this amazing director. And we just. He just got something amazing about the play and what he did in the end of the play where all the lights come up on all the different folders, indicating that all the folders you've seen throughout the play are basically the silent. The women that have been silenced. He came up with that after he'd read it straight away. And I went, you're the person to direct it. You so see what I need people to see. And, you know, and he didn't know my producer, but I introduced them. And then, you know, Jody came on board, and it was a very organic, loving process. And that group of people, all the designers, all. All the artists, I mean, they're just top of the tree. They're the most incredible, incredible artists and really, really wonderful friends and family for me now.

[Julia Gillard]

Incredible. And, of course, you haven't stopped there. I am very conscious that we're only going into a couple of plays on your very big, big volume of work. So we only have time to go into a couple of plays. But certainly I'm going to refer everybody to a much bigger volume of work. But your most recent play, inter alia, continues the themes that were in Prima Facie. It's not a sequel. It's not the same character or anything like that, but it takes a different lens on the same set of issues. It tells the story of Jessica, who is a mother. She's also in the law. She has a teenager son. And you channel the emotions many women have about their sons, which is they, of course, want their sons to be good Boys and great men. But there is also this fear what would happen if they were accused of sexual assault or some form of misconduct. And through the play, inter alia, you hold that up to. To the light what that fear is like and how a family responds. And once again, there's the interplay of the law and a family perspective. Can you talk to us about how, inter alia, came to you?

[Susie Miller]

Yeah, absolutely. So it came to me. There was a Canadian man who sadly has passed away since I spoke with him, but he was the partner of a friend of mine who I'd met in Canada, and they came down to see my play in New York when it was on Broadway, Prime Effect. And he said, you know, Susie, maybe because he's Canadian, I was really open to hearing what he had said. I'd like to talk to you about something. Because he said, you know, in my day, I'm mortified to think that, in fact, you know, the way I grew up, it was. We were so. We were taught to think that, you know, women were never going to sort of agree to sex because otherwise they'd look like they were being too loose. And the reality is that we were supposed to sort of push harder and kind of convince them that they were so attractive that, you know, they sort of had to come. Come around to having sex with us. And he said, and I look back now at my life in my 20s, and I'm a bit anxious. I mean, I think it was all consensual, but was it? And I thought how that might be the key to how so many men I know will not talk about this stuff. They're all a bit terrified of being called out. So as a consequence, what are we doing as a community when the men who are supposed to be like, women have sons and they raise them as young feminist sons until they're sort of 14 or. Or 15. But then who takes over the templating of masculinity? What is masculinity is the thing that we're worried about, not, not maleness, but masculinity and the way it's defined. And I think it's really interesting because if those fathers have that kind of anxiety, they're not going to talk to their sons about their experiences or failures or what the. What it is, because they don't quite. They're just going to be. They're a bit quiet about it. And so what, what are. Who are their templates? Who are their mentor? And I mean, where are the people that step in when women are actually slightly sidelined about masculinity. And there's no one, it's left to sort of pornography and, and sort of peer groups and you know, football talk. I mean, there's none. And I think where are the big brothers and the godfathers and the dads and the kind of walks around the block where we talk about real stuff and actually we're letting the whole community down by not having that in place. We're letting girls down because we're letting loose these new sexual kind of, of entities that have really mixed up ideas about sexuality and how you actually have sex with a woman and what, you know, what they, what they think consent is. But we're also letting down the boys because they're going to have no real intimacy or life if that's what they think is normal and that's what they're experiencing as normal. And so I did a lot of research and I read a lot and you know, I thought this is the killer. This is one of the ways that we as a community need to make a difference. And it really is about accountability and knowing that it's not just about if I want sex, I get sex. And you know, if they cry rape, that's just them being horrible. Or, and you know, often in court, barristers will always cross examine like a complainant in sexual assault or rape based on, you felt dumped by him, didn't you? This is your revenge, or you're punishing him because he moved on and you didn't, or you. And I think actually in this day and age when women, if anyone feels rejected and wants to punish someone, they'll just cancel them on social media or they'll just basically like swipe in the other direction on a dating app. They don't need to go to court for three years of a horrible experience and then be cross examined in front of the world. Your motivation is wrong if you think that is why you think women are making this stuff up for that reason, that's crazy. And that's the reason from all time that people have cross examined women about sexual assault and rape by the idea that they have some other agenda that they're harboring, that they're making this up to destroy some man. And you know, that is passed on through the generations to younger men. And they think, you know, women this, that and the other breeds a misogyny and a lack of understanding about different lived experiences between, between all genders. And the idea that actually you're not entitled to access somebody's body until they give you actual consent to do that and it's in your interest for a healthy, intimate relationship to know that there's a communication. And to say, is this okay? Is not a big deal. It's like, I mean, so many men say, oh, what, you're going to destroy sex by saying there's no, you know, that everyone has to stop and shoot, check in. I go, is this okay? Is something you should be saying anyway, just because you want to feel what the other person's feeling and know that they're actually still with you in that pro. In that process. And, you know, like, if we're raising young boys, surely we owe them and the women they're going to sleep with going forward, that level of kind of community and understanding. And I feel like, you know, this anxiety about talking about sex is bizarre, but also, where does it come from? Why are we all so anxious when we know our children are going to go out there and have sex to talk to them about their sexuality and what porn they watch and why and what the context of that is? And, you know, it's a really important conversation. And so what I wanted, inter alia, to do is to really inspire basically, men to start walking around the block and talking to young boys in their lives about. And not just about, oh, I was great at football and I did this and I did that and this is the way to be successful. Talk about your heartbreak, talk about when you felt vulnerable, talk about the time that you failed, because all boys are going to go through that and if they only ever get told about, you know, my dad was really great with me. The women, I mean, they're going to try and emulate that in a way that's not. That's hostile towards any sort of intimacy. So I just felt like that's what I wanted to do with that play. And I was so thrilled when the. When men came out of that and said, I'm going home to walk my son around the block right now. Because I've never had this conversation. And I think, you know, like, let's give young boys something to work with rather than expecting them to raise themselves on the Internet. Really?

[Julia Gillard]

Absolutely. Such an important. Now our time is growing short, but I've got to ask you this. I've heard rumours that this is going to be a trilogy. Is there another.

[Susie Miller]

Oh, well, there might be.

[Julia Gillard]

Oh, global scoop time.

[Susie Miller]

Yes, absolutely. I've never told anyone this, but I'm very keen because ultimately the law is like. The law is an organic thing and it's changed by us as a community and our values But I feel like we live in a community where we're not examining the rape myths and the myths that we all bring to that. That discussion and judgment. And so I feel like we have to start with the jury and say, what. What do juries understand and what do they bring into that jury room? That is basically what a community around a dinner table would bring. Like a mixed community around a dinner table would bring. And what are the. What are the things that affect their judgment? And so many of them are rape myths. Like, well, she went out and had a drink, you know, like, so what. How many people are going to go? I mean, so few. Rapes are like someone in their school uniform dragged behind a bush. I mean, they're shocking, terrible rapes, but they're fairly cut and dry. I mean, no one's saying consent if you. And also, there's a statutory rape, you know, if you're under 16. But I guess the thing is that there seems to be so much. Even as mothers, women do it too. We all do. We say to our daughters, oh, don't go out looking like that. And you think, why? Well, they're not actually asking to be raped. This is crazy. Like, why are we putting the responsibility always on the girls and on the young women? Like, why are we expecting them to sort of tailor the response that men have to who they are? We should be starting with a community education campaign that says, hang on, let's examine those concepts that we bring our daughters up with that make them somehow feel shameful about who they are because they're attractive or because they want to be attractive or because they just want to go out and have fun and have a drink. So I just want to. To start with the jury. So think about 12 angry men and think 12 angry women. No, it's not 12 angry women, but it's actually like a cross section of community and all the different kinds of things that come into that jury room that we're not privileged to see. But it is actually what's happening in everyone's home around the country right now that they've got. There they go, yeah, yeah, I don't believe in it, but, you know, it's all that. Yeah, I know that obviously, men. Men who do. But. But, you know, you can't be expected to dot, dot, dot. And so I think, what are those. What are those words? And let's see whether we can dissect them and interrogate them and challenge them within a jury setting. And also, there's also another little thing that happens within that so working toward it now, but it'll be a long. It'll be. It'll be a while.

[Julia Gillard]

It'll be a while. So we'll have to wait, but it's going to be fabulous when it gets.

[Susie Miller]

You're the first to hear, Johnny.

[Julia Gillard]

Oh, thank you. Thank you for trusting me with that and thank you for this incredible conversation. It's been a great, deep conversation. Thank you for the bravery you've shown in your life to pick the path that enabled you to do this kind of work, which I know is speaking loudly into the world. Absolutely. So thank you for that. Now, of course, Virginia Woolf is up there in the sky or somewhere in feminist heaven, and she's looking down on us. And this podcast is inspired by her A Room of One's Own. A Podcast of One's Own. So we always finish up with a quote from Virginia. The quote I've chosen for you is nothing has really happened until it has been described.

[Susie Miller]

Oh, I love it. I love it. And thank you. Thank you. And I think just on that your speech to Parliament about misogyny had never really happened until you made it. And. And then it just ignited a whole. My quote to you is from my own play, which is, once you see, you can't unsee. And I think that that sort of invokes all of us to go, right, let's go forward and make the change that we want to see in the world. And thank you for doing that, Julia. Really appreciate it.

[Julia Gillard]

Thank you. And thank you for helping us see

[Podcast Production Team Narrator]

A Podcast of One Zone is created by the Global Institute for Women Women's Leadership at the Australian National University, Canberra, with support from our sister institute at King's College, London. Earnings from the podcast go back into funding for the Institute, which was founded by our host, Julia Gillard, and brings together rigorous research, practice and advocacy as a powerful force to advance gender equality and promote fair and equal access to leadership. Research and production for the this podcast is by Becca Shepherd, Alice Higgins and Alina Ecot, with editing by Liz Keen from Headline Productions. If you have feedback or ideas, please email us at giwlnu. Edu au. To stay up to date with the Institute's work, go to giwl. Anu.edu au and sign up to our updates or follow us on social media jewellery Anu. You can also find A Podcast of One's Own on Instagram. The team at A Podcast of One's Own acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today. Thanks for listening and we hope you'll join us next time.

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