Rebuilding The American Shipyard

Summary

Podcast Summary: The a16z Show – "Rebuilding The American Shipyard"

Date: May 19, 2026
Guests: Dino Mavrukis (CEO, Saronic), Hon. Michael Duffy (Pentagon, Defense Security Cooperation Agency)
Host: Andreessen Horowitz

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Episode Overview

In this episode, a16z explores the urgent and generational challenge of rebuilding America's shipyards and the broader defense industrial base. The discussion centers on the necessity of modernizing manufacturing, harnessing autonomy, strengthening the skilled workforce, and the importance of integrating commercial strategies for both defense and economic sustainability. Dino Mavrukis of Saronic and Pentagon’s Michael Duffy share actionable insights and bold visions for the innovation required to support the nation's security and industrial future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. America’s Generational Opportunity and Current Vulnerabilities

• Opening Message:
  Dino Mavrukis emphasizes the “real generational opportunity to build what this country needs for the next hundred years,” calling for more founders, builders, and government advocates for change.

  • Quote: “We need more founders, we need more builders, and we need more folks in government pushing for change.” (00:00 – Dino Mavrukis)

• Defense Base Fragility:
  Michael Duffy raises concerns about the fragility of the traditional defense industrial base, primarily due to dependence on sole, unprofitable suppliers and bespoke defense-only designs.

  • Quote: “It’s really frustrating how much fragility we encounter within the traditional defense industrial base... we’ve really created our own set of vulnerabilities here.” (00:15 – Michael Duffy)

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2. Shifting Constraints: From Innovation to Production

• The current bottleneck is no longer technological innovation, but the ability to manufacture at speed, cost, and scale.
• The ecosystem is seeing a shift towards removing barriers, rethinking manufacturing, and driving towards efficient, scalable production models.
  • Summary Point: "The question is not what to build, but how to build it and whether the system itself can keep up." (00:39 – Podcast Narrator)

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3. The Power of Autonomy in Naval Shipbuilding

• Rethinking Design:
  Autonomy allows for fundamental redesign of ships, focusing on speed and scale rather than legacy processes.

  • Quote: “You have to bend the economic cost curve. You have to build ships cheaper, you have to build ships faster. ... You build for software autonomy and digitization.” (01:44 – Dino Mavrukis)

• Labor and Material Efficiency:
  Compared to traditional destroyers requiring 7-9 million labor hours, Saronic’s Marauder ships use about 50,000 labor hours—a radical leap enabled by autonomy and first-principles design.

  • Example: “A destroyer is 7 to 9 million labor hours. ... Marauder’s using about a 50,000 labor hour on our first ship.” (02:54 – Dino Mavrukis)

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4. Scaling American Shipyards and the Role of Workforce

• Rebuilding the Workforce:
  Mavrukis argues for designing ships so that tasks do not require decades of experience, enabling rapid retraining and workforce expansion.

  • Quote: “You can’t create people with 15 years of experience overnight. ... Design the ship so you actually don’t need 15 years of welding experience to build it in the first place.” (04:21 – Dino Mavrukis)
  • Memorable Line: “Less like an encyclopedia, more like Ikea.” (04:46 – Citing Saronic’s Head of Manufacturing)

• Cultural Shift:
  Making shipyard work “cool,” mission-driven, and appealing to a new generation is crucial.

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5. Private Capital and Investment Incentives

• Shifting Industry’s Relationship with Government:
  Duffy describes a new model where industry invests its own capital in production expansions, incentivized by government deals rather than handouts.

  • Quote: “Instead of being a handout from the US Government, as it’s traditionally been, incentivizes industry ... to actually take ownership on the efficiency and production capacity.” (05:56 – Michael Duffy)

• Level Playing Field:
  This shift supports both startups and traditional contractors, pushing everyone towards modernization.

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6. Port Alpha and the Critical Role of Commercial Markets

• Generational Impact:
  Port Alpha aims to become “one of, if not the largest, shipyard in the world,” focusing on autonomous ships and large-scale commercial vessels.

  • Quote: “Port Alpha is a generational project. ... Focus on autonomous platforms, focus on the future of the maritime industry, unlocking the commercial market.” (07:30 – Dino Mavrukis)

• Commercial-Defense Synergy:
  Saronic’s model treats commercial markets as critical for maintaining peacetime production readiness and national competitiveness.

  • Insight: “If we can't enter the commercial market in a viable and economic manner, then we’re just looking to the government for the next contract ... and maybe it's five years from now, maybe it's 30, but eventually we may end up right back where we are.” (08:11 – Dino Mavrukis)

• Government’s View:
  Duffy echoes the “commercial first” strategy as key to acquisition, resilience, and avoiding dependency on fragile defense-only suppliers.

  • Quote: “Commercial first is a major element of our acquisition transformation strategy ... that creates all kinds of resilience and benefits for the Department of Defense as well.” (08:50 – Michael Duffy)

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7. Advice for Builders and Policy Leaders

• Message to Founders and Program Managers:
  Duffy expresses gratitude for innovators breaking through bureaucracy, emphasizing collective responsibility and direct communication to eliminate obstacles.

  • Quote: “Let a thousand flowers bloom and ensure we are removing obstacles... It’s really up to everybody in this room.” (09:47 – Michael Duffy)
  • Action Point: Invites continued feedback and engagement from industry to help remove operational barriers.

• Advice for Emerging Builders:
  Mavrukis calls on passionate founders to commit, stressing that widespread partnership and conviction are needed.

  • Quote: “Find what you believe in and then go for it. There’s a real generational opportunity to build what this country needs for the next hundred years.” (10:59 – Dino Mavrukis)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Less like an encyclopedia, more like Ikea.” (04:46 – Dino Mavrukis, quoting Saronic’s Head of Manufacturing)
• “If you have the ability to send a robot, you just shouldn’t do it. So let’s leverage robotics and protect human life where we can.” (01:53 – Dino Mavrukis)
• “Production really is the biggest constraint for us when it comes to fulfilling our foreign military sales orders.” (05:56 – Michael Duffy)
• “There’s no defense industrial base without an industry.” (09:28 – Podcast Host)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00-00:28 – The generational opportunity and current vulnerabilities
• 01:30-03:48 – Autonomy’s impact on shipbuilding (labor, cost, speed)
• 04:21-05:41 – Rebuilding the workforce and shifting manufacturing culture
• 05:56-07:13 – Private capital’s role and new investment models
• 07:30-09:28 – Port Alpha, commercial market synergy, and government’s commercial-first strategy
• 09:47-10:53 – Advice to policymakers and industry innovators
• 10:59-11:40 – Advice for new builders; closing thoughts

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Conclusion

This episode lays bare the acute need for systemic change in America’s shipyard and defense industrial bases. The key takeaways: powerful advances in autonomy can drastically reduce labor and material needs; workforce and cultural transformation are as vital as any technology; and bridging defense and commercial markets is not just a strategy, but a necessity for sustainable growth and national resilience. Both speakers urge current and aspiring innovators to seize this generational moment for ambitious, mission-driven building.

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Transcript

[Dino Mavrukis]

There's a real generational opportunity to build what this country needs for the next hundred years. And we need more founders, we need more builders, and we need more folks in government pushing for change.

[Michael Duffy]

It's really frustrating how much fragility we encounter within the traditional defense industrial base because we have a sole supplier that's not really that profitable. That was bespoke for the defense industry. And all of a sudden we've really created our own set of vulnerabilities here.

[Podcast Host]

This room is filled with PEs and PMs from across the Pentagon. What's key message you'd like to send this group as we look to build together and build faster in 2026?

[Michael Duffy]

The only way to succeed is really

[Podcast Outro Narrator]

to what does it take to rebuild an industrial base? For decades, the focus in defense has been on technology, better systems, more advanced capabilities. But increasingly, the constraint isn't innovation, it's production. How fast things can be built, at what cost, and at what scale. That shift is forcing a rethink of everything from manufacturing to procure. New companies are approaching the problem from first principles, redesigning systems for autonomy software and speed. While the government works to remove barriers and create stronger demand signals, the question is not what to build, but how to build it and whether the system itself can keep up. Michael Duffy speaks with Dino Mavrukis about rebuilding the defense industrial base for the next generation.

[Podcast Host]

How have you translated this alignment between Suronics, autonomy and the nature of Navy's no man left behind ethos into contracts? And how do autonomy breakthroughs actually allow you to build more, faster products for the Navy?

[Dino Mavrukis]

So that's one I'll come back to. What autonomy enables is, and I'm a huge believer in this. We're unlocking capability that didn't exist before. Warfare will require humans involvement at some point, but I've seen it, and you should never send a human. If you have the ability to send a robot, you just shouldn't do it. So let's leverage robotics and protect human life where we can. The real unlock to autonomy is speed and scale, right? If I was sitting up here telling the Secretary how we're going to build the same ships that we've been building for the last 50 years, or the same ships that they're building in China, we're just going to do it better, faster and cheaper. I mean, he should just politely ask me to leave. You have to bend the economic cost curve. You have to build ships cheaper, you have to build ships faster. The only two levers you have to pull are Material costs and labor costs. We're not going to buy steel cheaper than they're buying it in China. So you have to take a first principles design to the ship and just fundamentally use less steel. How do you do that? You build for software autonomy and digitization. Same thing on labor hours. We're not going to acquire a per hour labor rate cheaper than they're paying in China. So let's build ships much faster. For example, Marauder's using about a 50,000 labor hour on our first ship. Just for order of magnitude. Put it in frame of reference. Apples and oranges comparison here. I'm going to acknowledge that up front. But A destroyer is 7 to 9 million labor hours. So that's the scale and speed that autonomy unlocks because you can redesign the whole platform and make it much simpler to build. And then you have the capability at the scale that you need to keep as many people as possible out of combat scenarios.

[Podcast Host]

You mentioned the sort of factories and bringing autonomy into the actual manufacturing processes. You've put real money behind rebuilding the American industrial base, most notably a major expansion of your Louisiana shipyard, as well as getting prepared to launch Port Alpha. We're excited for news there at some point soon. How are you thinking about Saronic investing in some of these forgotten areas, forgotten demographics, as you build out manufacturing across the US and how has scaling been similar, different, complementary for the different customer bases that you're targeting?

[Dino Mavrukis]

The workforce is critical. Right? Sacrific and I were talking about the workforce earlier. We have to rebuild the workforce to support the maritime industrial base. Right. You can't create people with 15 years of experience overnight. So it goes back to the first principles approach design of the ship. Design the ship so you actually don't need 15 years of welding experience to build it in the first place. Then you can actually rebuild and retrain the workforce. I'll steal one of the lines from our head of manufacturing. He says less like an encyclopedia, more like Ikea. It's like everybody can build furniture. Somebody is building a car for Ford or General Motors or an airplane at Boeing or a rocket ship for SpaceX and we can't get them highly effective building ships quickly, that's our fault. That means our design isn't simple enough. We don't have the processes or the work instructions or the training materials or something else. So it's rebuilding and recreating the workforce and changing the culture. What it actually means to work at a shipyard again, making it cool, building for the future, giving people a mission and giving people job security.

[Podcast Host]

Behind that, you mentioned the job security piece. So following up generally on your investments, Honorable Duffy, what investments do you want to see companies making as we look to rebuild the defense industrial base? And maybe I'll expand that to companies and private capital?

[Michael Duffy]

Well, I think Dino's got it right in terms of how we can leverage modern manufacturing. I mean, one of the things that we're finding as we dig down into traditional industry and as we look at, you'd mentioned the transition of Defense Security Cooperation Agency under my jurisdiction now in the Pentagon, production really is the biggest constraint for us when it comes to fulfilling our foreign military sales orders. And the parade of production is generally kind of calibrated to what the U.S. department of War budget looks like. We can no longer kind live within those constraints. And you've seen some of the deals that we've been able to do with traditional industry in the last two months, where we've incentivized them to expend their own private capital to expand production with their own funding, which I think then, instead of being a handout from the US Government, as it's traditionally been, incentivizes industry to do what Dino is doing with his company, which is really modernize how we're take ownership on the actual efficiency and production capacity that they're producing. I think that's a fundamental shift that we want to see industry wide, which I think levels the playing field for both the new startups that are already practicing this way and bringing our traditional defense contractors, who have capability that we need, into that construct as well.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, completely. Dino, moving back to you. What role will Port Alpha play in supporting your growth and expansion as you continue building for both the defense and commercial markets at speed and scale? And in particular, how have you found the commercial market to be important to support your defense market?

[Dino Mavrukis]

To put it bluntly, I mean, Port Alpha is a generational project. I mean, we're looking at building one of, if not the largest, shipyard in the world. Focus on autonomous platforms, focus on the future of the maritime industry, unlocking the commercial market, building larger vessels, cargo containers, bulk carriers, oil tankers, things that enable things like energy dominance. Right. It's absolutely critical to have that commercial market, because at the end of the day, what our goal is to provide the Department of War wartime production capacity during peacetime. And if we can't enter the commercial market in a viable and economic manner, then we're just looking to the government for the next contract vehicle and the next paycheck to support our company's longevity and maybe it's five years from now, maybe it's 10 years from now, maybe it's 20, maybe it's 30. But eventually we may end up right back where we are. That's why the commercial market is so important. And you see a big focus with the Maritime Action Plan is on the commercial shipping industry within the United States.

[Michael Duffy]

Yeah, I think if I can jump in on that. I mean, commercial first is a major element of our acquisition transformation strategy and the resilience it provides the industrial base. I mean, it's really for us how much fragility we encounter within the traditional defense industrial base because we have a sole supplier that's not really that profitable. That was a feeder to a design that was bespoke for the defense industry. And all of a sudden, we've really created our own set of vulnerabilities here. If we can prioritize commercial first and producability as a primary input to the development of a design that creates all kinds of resilience and benefits for the Department of Defense as well. So that's, I think, key to our success.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. On our team, we often say, there's no defense industrial base without an industri. So the two really go hand in hand. Honorable Duffy, this room is filled with PAEs and PMs from across the Pentagon, as well as many founders that are building for the department. What's one key message you'd like to send this group as we look to build together and build faster in 2026?

[Michael Duffy]

Well, let me start with an expression of gratitude for the leaders in this room who are driving innovation, who are fighting through the bureaucracy to deliver the capability that the warfighter needs on schedule. And I think the other message I would say is it's really up to everybody in this room. Right. We recognize, I think, as a part of this acquisition transformation strategy, the only way to succeed is really to let a thousand flowers bloom and ensure that we are removing the obstacles to companies and program leadership to deliver the best capability the warfighter needs on schedule. And that's going to take time, and it's going to take cooperation. One of the things that we've been trying to do as we try to change culture within the Pentagon is maximum communication throughout the hierarchy of the acquisition system directly with industry and ensuring that there's clear understanding of what's getting in the way. We want to continue to expand on that. And I invite everybody in this room to engage with my team or others and just say, hey, this is not working. How can we remove this barrier? Because we're committed to making sure we can go as fast as possible.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you. And Dino, advice to other builders who might be a click or two behind you.

[Dino Mavrukis]

Find what you believe in and then go for it. There's a real generational opportunity to build what this country needs for the next hundred years. And we need more founders, we need more builders, and we need more folks in government like the secretary pushing for change. This isn't a one company, one person is going to solve this problem. We need a partnership across the country and folks that are thinking about getting into this space building a company. I would say build the conviction in what you believe in and then go all in on it because the country needs you and the partners are here to support you.

[Podcast Host]

Amazing. Thank you both so much. Honorable Duffy, Dino, it's been a real pleasure.

[Podcast Outro Narrator]

Thanks for listening to this episode of the A16Z podcast. If you like this episode, be sure to like, comment, subscribe, leave us a rating, or review and share it with your friends and family. For more episodes, go to YouTube, Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Follow us on X1 6Z and subscribe to our [e-mail] thanks again for listening and I'll see you in the next episode. As a reminder, the content here is for informational purposes only, should not be taken as legal, business, tax or investment advice, or be used to evaluate any investment or security, and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any A16Z fund. Please note that A16Z and its affiliates may also maintain investments in the companies discussed in this podcast. For more details, including a link to our investments, please see a16z.com disclosures.